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0:35

Hi, Heather.

0:38

Hi, Willa. Heather Schwedell, you

0:40

are my colleague at Slate, and you also regularly

0:42

cover celebrities. Yes, and

0:45

I especially enjoy following their love lives.

0:47

On that note, did you see the news about Joshua

0:50

Jackson from Dawson's Creek and Jodie Turner

0:52

Smith, the model and actress? Jodie

0:54

Turner Smith and Joshua Jackson

0:57

are calling it quits. Jodie

0:59

has filed for divorce from the actor

1:02

after four years of marriage.

1:04

Yeah,

1:04

I always kind of liked them. I did, too. And

1:07

I noticed this one weird thing as I was reading

1:09

all the comments under posts about them. A

1:11

lot of people were saying that they knew their marriage was

1:13

doomed from the start. How did

1:16

they know that?

1:17

Apparently, Jodie Turner Smith was the

1:19

one who proposed to Joshua Jackson. And according

1:21

to all these commenters, that broke an unwritten

1:24

rule of romance, that the man should be the

1:26

one to do that.

1:27

So they were never going to last. I

1:29

don't know. I don't know what I think about that. I

1:32

know, but it caught my attention because I've

1:34

been thinking about one of the places where rules

1:36

like this have been written down.

1:38

It's a best-selling dating manual from the mid-1990s. And

1:41

what is this dating manual called? The

1:44

Rules, time-tested secrets for

1:46

capturing the heart of Mr. Right. And

1:48

what are some of the rules in The Rules?

1:51

Well, one is don't laugh or

1:53

talk too much. Another is never

1:56

accept a Saturday night date after Wednesday. And

1:59

of course, don't make the first move.

2:00

first move.

2:01

This is the 90s. Isn't it okay

2:03

for women to speak to man first? Sure, but he won't love

2:05

you. He won't want to. He won't chase you down the bluff.

2:07

It's not the 90s

2:10

anymore, but the rules haven't really

2:12

gone away. You can laugh on a date.

2:14

You can talk, but who still

2:17

pays for the first date and who's supposed

2:19

to propose?

2:20

Yeah, all of these ideas are still just very

2:22

in the water.

2:24

Right. And I wanted to figure out why they've

2:26

been so persistent. So this might

2:28

be a little forward of us, but

2:31

we have a proposal for

2:32

you, our listeners. Would

2:34

you drop everything and join us like

2:37

right now to dig into the ongoing relevance

2:39

of the rules? This

2:48

is Dakota Ring. I'm Willa Paskin. The

2:50

dating manual of the rules was controversial

2:53

from the day it was released. Some

2:55

people loved it and swore by it. Others thought

2:57

it was throwback hogwash that flew in the

2:59

face of decades of feminist progress.

3:02

The resulting brew, haha, turned the book

3:04

into a phenomenon. In this episode

3:06

Heather Shwadel is going to dive into the rules.

3:09

She's going to look at where they come from, how they

3:11

got so popular and why they've been

3:13

so sticky, whether we like it or

3:15

not. So today on Dakota

3:18

Ring, the rules was retrograde.

3:20

Was it good advice?

3:45

This show is brought to you by Discover. You

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know, in today's world, it seems the best treatment

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you'll feel special with Discover. Learn

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more at discover.com slash

4:14

credit card. Limitations apply. Heather's

4:19

going to take the lead. The story of

4:21

the rules begins when the writer Sherri Schneider

4:23

was a young professional

4:24

dating in New York City.

4:26

I had been to a Jewish matzah ball

4:28

dance. It was like a thousand people. And

4:31

I thought tonight is my night. How could

4:33

I go wrong with a thousand people? I didn't

4:35

meet anybody that I liked. Dating

4:38

is always difficult. But in the early 90s,

4:41

the ramifications of feminism, the

4:43

sexual revolution and

4:44

AIDS made it feel uniquely so. The

4:46

old ways were out, but the new ones weren't clear.

4:49

Men were no longer solely in charge, but

4:52

were women? What did that mean

4:54

for sex and marriage and even just who

4:56

was supposed to ask whom out? I was

4:59

at an event and no guy that I liked

5:01

was talking to me first. I might approach someone

5:03

and then it would never work out. Sherri

5:06

was floundering in this strange new world. As

5:09

she struggled with single life, she befriended a

5:11

woman around her age, an accountant who

5:13

was in the New York City dating scene too.

5:16

Her name was Ellen Finning.

5:18

She declined to speak with us for this episode.

5:20

But unlike Sherri, Ellen had a strategy.

5:23

She said, you know, there is a formula,

5:25

like never speak to a guy first, play hard to

5:27

get. This popular girl in high school told her

5:29

about it.

5:30

Apparently in high school, Ellen

5:32

had known a pretty

5:33

prom queen type,

5:34

but she's not where the advice started.

5:37

Rather, Ellen said the prom queen had

5:39

gotten the info from her grandmother,

5:41

who around 1917 had more

5:43

suitors and marriage proposals than she

5:45

knew what to do with. Basically, there

5:47

are just some innate things that you must do when you're

5:50

dating. This is Ellen Fine

5:52

on a 1990s TV show. Initially,

5:54

Sherri was as skeptical of dating advice

5:56

from the 1910s

5:57

as anyone might be.

5:59

like no way. I thought, you

6:02

know, feminism, we're supposed to do whatever we

6:04

feel like. And that should apply to men

6:06

as well as careers and everything.

6:09

But what Sherry was doing wasn't working.

6:12

And it wasn't working for her friends either.

6:15

Ellen and I would meet girlfriends in the city once or twice

6:17

a week for dinner. And everybody, no

6:19

matter what they did for a living and be a lawyer,

6:21

doctor, every single one that chased a

6:23

guy or was too available cut them.

6:26

And we just said, you know what, we have to write this down. Nobody

6:28

can remember anything. And we don't have time to be on the

6:30

phone all day telling people what to do.

6:33

So we just said, let's put it in book form. So

6:36

she and Ellen set out to codify this playing

6:38

hard to get approach to turn it into a whole

6:40

system with, you know, rules.

6:43

Ellen and I lived near each other in the city and she came

6:45

to my apartment once a week. And

6:47

we just talked for a couple of hours

6:50

and we did like a chapter a week. They

6:53

ultimately came up with 35 different

6:55

rules. They include the rules you've already

6:57

heard and a bunch of others besides

6:58

like number 18. Don't

7:01

expect a man to change or try to change

7:03

him. And number 31. Don't

7:05

discuss the rules with your therapist. The

7:08

overarching message was don't chase

7:11

a man. Let him chase you.

7:13

These ideas were so out of fashion,

7:16

so at odds with the gender politics of the

7:18

90s that even when Sherry was deep

7:20

into writing the book, she found it difficult

7:22

to take her own advice, especially

7:25

after she started seeing a man she really

7:27

liked.

7:28

It was hard. I was

7:31

like, I can't believe I can't call him. You

7:33

see him once a week the first month, twice

7:35

a week the second month, and then never more than three

7:38

times a week for the whole relationship. Labor

7:40

Day weekend, I could only see him Saturday night. I couldn't

7:42

see him Sunday as well. And

7:44

he

7:44

asked me to see him the next day and I said I can

7:46

and he said why. And I said, well, I'm going to the gym and I have

7:49

some errands to do. And he said, that's why you can't see me.

7:51

And he just shook his head and said, okay. But

7:55

despite how unnatural it felt, she

7:57

actually seemed to be getting somewhere.

7:59

I could tell it was working because on the second day he said

8:02

that's where my brother proposed to his wife. On

8:04

the third day he mentioned nephews. He was always

8:06

bringing up marriage, family. I

8:09

was seeing the results every week.

8:11

Her doubts disappeared. Her

8:13

friends' romantic lives had improved. Her

8:15

co-writer Ellen Fine had gotten married. And

8:18

Sherry did too, to the guys she had turned

8:20

down on Labor Day weekend. As

8:22

far as she was concerned, the rules worked.

8:25

And she and Ellen wanted to take them out into

8:28

the world.

8:31

We had no interest in fame. We really just

8:33

wanted to tell the single girl that was suffering

8:36

that she shouldn't speak to a guy

8:38

first, you know, that she shouldn't initiate a relationship

8:41

because the guy has to make the first move.

8:43

So

8:43

to understand the appeal of the rules, and

8:46

also the critique of it, I want

8:48

to look a little closer at the manuscript Sherry and

8:50

Ellen began shopping around town, starting

8:52

with rule number one. Be a creature

8:55

unlike any other. Now,

8:57

when you hear this rule you might think, okay,

9:00

this book is beginning by encouraging women to

9:02

have confidence, to embrace and celebrate

9:04

who they are.

9:05

That's actually where Sherry says this rule comes

9:08

from. Sometimes women would talk

9:10

to us and they had such low self-esteem, they didn't

9:12

feel like they were good enough for a man or pretty

9:14

enough for a man. And I think one of

9:16

us just said, you know what? You know, like, you're

9:18

a goddess.

9:19

You're a creature unlike any other. But

9:22

it turns out being a creature unlike any

9:24

other does not mean you are good enough

9:26

or pretty enough as you are. You

9:29

have to look

9:30

feminine. You have to look, you know, desirable.

9:33

So long hair and hoop earrings and

9:36

feminine, you know, not short hair or glasses. No glasses. Thin, feminine.

9:41

And as a person with curly hair, I take particular

9:44

offense at their habit of recommending everyone

9:46

wear their hair long and straight. Being

9:48

a creature unlike any other is really

9:51

being exactly the creature women have long been

9:53

expected to be with all the typical

9:55

Eurocentric white beauty standards that go

9:57

with it. This kind of thing is a little bit of a struggle.

10:00

all over the rules, an injunction that

10:02

sounds pretty reasonable but turns out

10:04

to be very conservative, like rule

10:07

number two. Don't talk to a man

10:09

first and don't ask him to dance.

10:13

In other words, let him come to you. Again,

10:15

I think there's a kernel of wisdom embedded here,

10:18

and it's that you can't make someone be interested

10:20

in you.

10:21

I don't think you snuff out that interest by saying

10:24

hi first,

10:25

but I don't think you should waste your time on someone

10:27

who isn't showing interest in you. But Sherry

10:29

and Ellen are saying something more extreme.

10:32

To initiate with a man, it just goes against

10:35

biology. This is biological, biologically

10:37

the

10:39

truth that men love a challenge

10:41

that

10:41

they are born to pursue,

10:43

that

10:44

they must pick you. Now,

10:47

in my experience on dating apps, rather

10:49

than being born to pursue, men seem

10:51

flummoxed by anything more challenging than swiping

10:54

right. But my anecdotal skepticism

10:56

aside, what Sherry is using here

10:58

is the language of evolutionary psychology

11:01

to express a very old idea.

11:04

Men chase, women get chased, and

11:06

this is not because of social convention, it's

11:08

because of nature.

11:11

This kind of biological just-so

11:13

story suggests we can't blame anyone

11:15

for how we date and mate, and we certainly

11:17

can't change it.

11:19

It's also the kind of flawed logic that can

11:21

easily lead to claims about why women

11:23

aren't temperamentally fit to be leaders,

11:26

or even half-full rights.

11:28

But romantic advice like this, aimed

11:30

at heterosexual women and predicated

11:33

on seeming certainty about how

11:35

men and women just are, is grounded

11:38

in something.

11:39

It's just not biology. It's

11:42

history.

11:43

For centuries, courtship mostly took

11:45

place in young women's homes, where it

11:47

was a given that

11:47

they would be passive participants in the process.

11:51

Men did the work, and women's families were

11:53

present, to chaperone and ensure everyone

11:55

stuck to the appropriate script. In

11:57

the early 20th century, that began to

11:59

change.

12:00

women started working outside the home and

12:02

spending more time in school. Dating

12:05

moved into public spaces like movie

12:07

theaters, restaurants, and dance halls. Around

12:09

this time, advice columnists warned women to

12:12

downplay this relative empowerment. They

12:14

should behave as though men still had all the

12:16

control over court

12:18

trips. The 1923 dating manual, The

12:20

Philosophy of Love, gives the woman a whole

12:22

host of things not to do including

12:24

quote,

12:25

show her eagerness or that she desires

12:27

to hold a man

12:28

in any way.

12:29

It was only in the 60s and 70s that

12:31

dating advice for women started to change

12:34

as a reflection of larger shifts in society.

12:36

Some of it just became sex advice.

12:41

Hold it! That book! Of

12:44

course, Sex and the Single Girl,

12:46

that kiddo-lating bestseller by Helen Gurley

12:49

Brown.

12:50

And there were other books too, The Joy of

12:52

Sex, Nice Girls Do, and How to Make

12:54

Love to a Man. And

12:56

then there were other books like The Intelligent Women's

12:58

Guide to Dating that gave women permission

13:01

to approach and flirt with men. And in

13:03

the me decade, books like Smart Women, Foolish

13:05

Choices,

13:06

and Women Who Love Too Much, both

13:08

written by psychologists, emphasized

13:10

the importance of staying true to yourself,

13:12

being transparent and authentic as

13:14

you pursued the right kind of man.

13:16

The rules flew in the face of all

13:18

of this, not

13:19

by dispensing something actually new,

13:21

but by going back to the past. In

13:24

the introduction, it explains that all the

13:26

rules come from that popular girl's grandmother

13:28

back in 1917, and her advice

13:31

would fit right into a dating guide from the 1920s or

13:33

30s, 40s, or 50s. Don't

13:37

meet him halfway or go Dutch on a date.

13:40

Don't rush into sex. Stop

13:42

dating him if he doesn't buy you a romantic gift

13:45

for your birthday or Valentine's Day. There

13:48

was one thing about the rules that was new,

13:50

its

13:51

tone. Sherry

13:52

and Ellen's tough, straight shooting

13:54

style made all their advice seem campily

13:57

modern and feminist in swagger, if

13:59

not in context.

13:59

They share sound-empowered whatever

14:02

advice they're doling out.

14:04

This combination of modern packaging and

14:06

old-school advice would prove to be irresistible,

14:09

though that wasn't immediately apparent.

14:12

It was impossible

14:13

to get them any media in the

14:15

beginning.

14:16

Tina Andriadis was the rules publicist

14:18

at Warner Books, which published the book around

14:20

Valentine's Day, 1995. Despite

14:23

the initial failure to make a splash, neither

14:25

she nor Sherry nor Ellen were quite ready

14:28

to give up on it.

14:29

They started setting up seminars. Sherry

14:31

and Ellen were just like, they were a

14:34

good two-woman show. I mean, they were really,

14:37

like, authentic and they believed in

14:39

this rule so much.

14:41

They would walk into a classroom full of women, grown

14:44

women, lawyers and divorcees and career

14:46

women who had been having trouble dating, and

14:48

they would just start taking questions.

14:50

They would not, like,

14:52

sugarcoat anything. So someone

14:54

would raise their hand and

14:55

say, okay, so I went out with this

14:57

guy. I didn't

14:59

have a date. You know, he slept over. Wait,

15:01

he slept over. Forget it.

15:04

Like, move on. Tina could see how their certainty appealed to

15:06

the women at these seminars because it appealed

15:08

to her, too. I remember once,

15:10

like, I had this guy and we went out a couple of times

15:13

and

15:13

seemed good on paper. And then she said, well,

15:16

how did the date end? Because that's

15:16

very important to the rules. How did the date end? I'm

15:19

like, well, he didn't walk me home. Forget it.

15:21

He doesn't love you.

15:23

I was just like this 25-year-old publicist. And I

15:26

was like,

15:26

oh, my God, these guys are amazing. They're going to find me a husband and

15:28

they're going to find everybody a husband and the world's going to be great.

15:31

When Tina noticed how captivated women were

15:33

by the Shari and Ellen show, she started

15:35

inviting journalists to observe.

15:37

That's how NBC's Dateline ended up

15:40

stopping by in 1996 and

15:42

capturing this exchange between the duo

15:44

and one of the attendees.

15:45

I am living with a man. I

15:48

pursued him. I

15:49

love you. I love you. I love you. You're

15:52

my man. You care about me, all this other stuff. Has he ever brought up

15:54

marriage? No. You wanted to marry him, basically.

15:57

Yeah. Then you have to move out.

15:59

Let's move out. Let's move out. Listening

16:02

to this clip, I can understand Sherry and

16:04

Ellen's appeal.

16:05

They are just so certain. They

16:08

make dating seem simple. Of

16:10

course, it's not.

16:12

But the allure of the rules is that if you follow

16:14

them, it could be.

16:16

All you have to do to land a husband or

16:19

avoid a devastating breakup is check all the

16:21

boxes. As journalists

16:23

and everyday women attended the seminars and

16:25

witnessed this kind of frank assurance, words

16:28

started getting around.

16:30

They were doing more press, more people

16:32

were coming to seminars, and sales were picking

16:34

up.

16:35

And then, in July of 1996, after

16:38

the book was released in mass market paperback,

16:40

it paid off spectacularly

16:43

when one of the most famous women in the world helped

16:45

send the rules into the stratosphere.

16:48

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18:29

In the summer of 1996, Princess

18:31

Diana was about to be officially divorced

18:33

from Prince Charles.

18:35

Her love life was one of the British press's

18:37

favorite topics, and she was rumored to

18:39

be romantically involved with a rugby player.

18:42

A couple have apparently exchanged

18:44

nicknames and intimate gifts. It's

18:46

also been alleged that Carlin assumed Diana

18:48

three to four times a day,

18:50

some chance, lasting for hours.

18:53

This all came to a head in early July

18:55

when the rugby player's wife, herself a TV

18:57

presenter, announced that she was sending Princess

19:00

Diana a copy of a new dating book called

19:02

The Rules, with one section highlighted.

19:05

Rule number 23.

19:07

Don't date a married man.

19:09

Sherry and Ellen happened to be in the UK

19:11

as all of this was going on, and they saw the press

19:14

frenzy firsthand. We were leaving

19:16

to go back to New York and in the airport every

19:18

tabloid had the rules on its cover. They

19:20

realized their book could be all over the American

19:23

press, too.

19:24

We sent the article to page six.

19:27

It was just like the floodgates open, and everybody

19:29

wanted to know what book Princess Diana was sent,

19:32

and everybody wanted to know why we were

19:34

turning dating upside down.

19:36

The book started to really sell.

19:38

It hit number one on the New York Times bestseller

19:41

list in October of 1996. That

19:43

same month, the authors were parodied on

19:45

Saturday Night Live.

19:47

Here's a rule that always trips me up a little bit. It really

19:49

did screw me up. Rule number 14. Never date a married

19:51

man. Oh, never. Why?

19:53

Because

19:54

married men are already married!

19:58

Sure, SNL was mocking.

19:59

how reductive some of the rules were, but

20:02

clearly a lot of readers were eager

20:04

for just that. Rule support

20:06

groups sprang up all over the country. Fans

20:09

began calling themselves rules girls. Sherry

20:11

and Ellen started charging $250 an hour for

20:14

consultations. They sold merch.

20:17

You could buy a rule-stating journal, a rule-slip-sick,

20:20

and an anklet that said, C-U-A-O, which

20:23

is short for creature unlike any other.

20:26

The rules was everywhere. Watch

20:28

out, fellas. The dating game just got

20:31

a lot tougher. Women out there are arming

20:33

themselves with a bestseller. Tips

20:35

on how to play hard to get, to get

20:37

you to the altar. It's called

20:39

the rules. The rules became a part

20:41

of the zeitgeist in a way few books do,

20:44

even popping up on Sex and the City, when

20:46

Charlotte defends its approach to Miranda. You

20:48

have to be. It's the only way to deal with men.

20:50

Oh, that's healthy.

20:51

Relationships are not enough games.

20:54

They're about mature and honest communication.

20:57

Games are empowering.

20:57

If you know what you're doing,

20:59

you can totally control the situation. Ellen

21:02

and Sherry were proto-influencers, brand

21:05

creators, before we used those words. And

21:07

their book became something that also didn't have a name

21:10

yet, a hate read. So

21:12

at what point did it

21:15

start to feel like a backlash

21:16

had arrived? Oh,

21:18

immediately.

21:20

Karen Carmack-Thrudy was an editor who worked

21:22

on the rules at Warner Books. It's

21:24

not even like a backlash, because

21:27

a backlash would presume

21:29

that a book came out and everybody

21:31

was in favor of it. There was

21:33

instant controversy with this book. People were

21:36

right from the start, either

21:39

in the camp of thinking it was great or in

21:41

the camp of thinking

21:42

it was horrible.

21:43

And both camps were crowded. For

21:45

every person who bought the book and a journal to

21:47

go along with it, there was someone who disdained

21:50

it, as trashy inane, conservative,

21:52

best-selling crap.

21:55

There were op-eds about it and parody books

21:57

and a lot of censure from feminists.

22:00

The head of the National Organization for

22:02

Women disparaged it in an interview. You

22:05

can't speak to a man, she said,

22:07

and

22:07

you should hide your personality?

22:10

It seems anti-feminist and manipulative.

22:13

Men themselves caught wind that women were using

22:15

the rules on them, and many of them didn't

22:18

like it. Writing in the New York

22:20

Times, Douglas Merton equipped that

22:22

the book was written by two predators who

22:24

parlayed their tricks into what they suggest may

22:26

be heaven on

22:27

earth, marriage in the suburbs.

22:30

But as with any contemporary hate read,

22:33

all the ire just kept the rules right where it wanted

22:35

to be, in the middle of the conversation.

22:39

And then, in October of 1996, that

22:41

conversation made it to the biggest stage

22:43

of all. The rules isn't just a book,

22:46

it is a movement, honey. Shari

22:48

and Ellen summited the Mount Everest

22:50

of the publishing industry, the Oprah

22:52

Winfrey Show, and it was clear from

22:55

the start of Shari and Ellen's appearance on her daytime

22:57

talk show.

22:58

Oprah liked the book. If

23:01

you're looking for a man, or you need a little help

23:03

with the one you got, this may be the

23:05

best advice on love you're going to get, girl. For

23:07

the first half of the episode, Oprah did her

23:09

Oprah thing, one of the most famous women on

23:11

the planet interviewing the guests as a relatable

23:13

audience stand-in, with plenty of questions

23:16

about dating. Don't talk to a man

23:18

first, and don't ask him to dance.

23:20

Right, if you're at a party or a restaurant

23:23

and a man doesn't come up to you that you think is cute,

23:26

too bad.

23:26

So the moment's just gone,

23:29

it's past, it's over? If a man likes

23:31

your look, he'll come over to you.

23:33

And if he doesn't like your looks, down the line

23:35

it won't be very good for your relationship. Really?

23:38

Really. A woman can become a CEO. But

23:40

maybe he will like your charming ways, your

23:43

insights, your personality. No, he

23:45

has to like

23:45

your looks first. If

23:47

he doesn't like the way you look, you can have the most wonderful

23:50

insights and be the most wonderful person in the world.

23:52

He will move on eventually. Okay.

23:54

In the second part of the episode, the show

23:57

leaned into the controversy and welcomed a guest

23:59

who hated the

23:59

rules,

24:00

a feminist writer and scholar named Regina

24:03

Baraka.

24:04

It says, don't talk so much. It also

24:06

says, don't be funny. It says, don't

24:08

laugh too much. You can laugh with your girlfriend, but

24:10

you cannot laugh with a man. You're not supposed

24:12

to have a sense of humor. Life is only

24:14

possible if you have a

24:15

sense of humor. They

24:18

were both from Long Island, and I am originally

24:20

from Brooklyn on Long Island. And so if

24:22

you watch the program, we've become increasingly

24:25

fishwives from Brooklyn on Long Island.

24:28

That's Regina today. She is now

24:30

a writer and English professor at the University

24:33

of Connecticut.

24:34

I was astonished

24:36

by the stuff that I

24:38

heard

24:39

on those pages. It tells women what

24:42

they're doing wrong, as

24:44

if it's somehow

24:44

all our fault, as opposed

24:47

to, you know, 3,000 years

24:49

of misogyny.

24:52

The most telling moment of the appearance came

24:54

when Oprah asked Regina about an age-old

24:56

warning, and the rules authors leapt into

24:58

the fray too. These women who jumped into

25:00

bed on the first date, I mean, it's

25:03

what our mothers told us. It doesn't work. In the

25:05

end, it doesn't. But neither does what our mothers did. I mean,

25:07

we have moved away in 30 years

25:10

from what our mothers wanted for. Let me ask you a question.

25:12

I'm just presenting the point. Should she

25:14

on the first date? How do you feel about a mature woman?

25:17

What is she not?

25:18

Regina is saying, I think a mature woman

25:21

should trust her instincts. This exchange

25:23

is at the crux of the debate around rules. It

25:27

was about what feminism had won for us,

25:29

and what it hadn't,

25:30

what it couldn't. Women

25:32

had made advancements in the preceding 30 years.

25:35

And yet, this was still a society

25:38

and culture that dismissed Anita Hill, that

25:40

objectified and teased Monica Lewinsky,

25:43

one in which sexism was alive and

25:45

well. And what the rules were saying

25:47

was, this is reality. So

25:49

deal with it. We can have our careers by

25:52

being bold. But if we want husbands,

25:54

we're going to have to fall back on age-old guidance

25:57

on the stuff that supposedly worked for our grandmas.

26:00

So accept that you will be called easy if you have sex

26:02

on a first date, and don't do it. How

26:05

it should be and how it is is, you

26:07

know, we want to deal in reality.

26:10

But when feminists heard this, they were a gas.

26:14

How could the response to all the progress

26:16

we've made and to the fact of lingering sexism

26:19

be to just throw up our hands and insist

26:21

we go back in time to make ourselves

26:23

smaller, to suppress our desires, to

26:26

hew to ancient rules?

26:28

The idea that you were supposed to be some

26:31

kind of mysterious, exotic,

26:34

evasive creature seemed

26:36

to me to be not

26:39

only a dismissal of, but a dismantling

26:41

of everything that women had been fighting for.

26:45

But some women didn't want to fight, and

26:47

they didn't have time to wait for things to change. And

26:50

the

26:50

rules, in its way, took that predicament

26:52

on.

26:54

Inevitably, as the decade ended and

26:56

the new millennia started, the rules would begin to

26:58

lose steam. Ellen Fine

27:00

even got divorced, an event that came

27:02

accompanied with all the expected tabloid

27:05

shins right up, and headlines like, rules

27:07

writer didn't play it by the book. In

27:10

one interview, Ellen actually apologized.

27:12

She hadn't followed the rules. I

27:14

got lax, she said.

27:16

My biggest mistake was that I was too tired

27:18

for date night.

27:20

But despite the hullabaloo, one

27:22

author's divorce couldn't kill the rules. The passage

27:25

of time couldn't kill the rules. New

27:27

best-selling advice books couldn't kill the rules.

27:30

And the introduction of a whole new online

27:32

mode of dating couldn't kill the rules either, because

27:35

it's possible that nothing can kill

27:37

the rules.

27:45

When you make a big purchase,

27:46

say a car or a new mattress, how

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do you make sure that you're making the right

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choice?

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Again, that's GiveWell.org

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to donate or find out more.

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30:15

It's been almost 30 years since The Rules was published

30:18

and it's still kicking around.

30:20

It got an update for the

30:22

age of texting and Facebook in 2013.

30:25

In September 2023, the authors

30:27

released The Rules Handbook, a guide for

30:29

creating lasting and loving relationships with

30:32

a small California publishing company. The

30:34

two authors are still teaching classes and doing

30:37

consultations and Ellen is even remarried.

30:40

They remain as committed to The Rules as ever.

30:43

Ellen and I believe in what we're doing, so

30:45

it's not a problem. I mean, you

30:47

can wake me up in the middle of the night and debate The Rules and

30:49

I'm like, no. If you

30:51

really believe in something,

30:53

you want to share it with the world.

30:56

So they're still sharing The Rules and

30:58

people are still responding to them. People

31:01

like Alicia Williams, a speech pathologist

31:03

in New Jersey.

31:05

Alicia comes from a religious background. She

31:07

didn't get a lot of relationship guidance and

31:09

ended up getting married young to the first man she

31:11

dated. That didn't work out. I

31:14

did get married and we got divorced a few years

31:16

later and I thought to myself, I have no

31:18

idea what I'm doing. I need

31:20

some rules. I literally need some rules. I

31:23

walked into the bookstore and I said, I would love some

31:25

rules. And I walked over to like the dating

31:27

section and lo and behold, there was a book

31:29

literally called The Rules. And I thought, well,

31:31

this is just fate.

31:34

Alicia considers herself a progressive

31:36

person, but the clarity

31:37

of The Rules resonated with her, especially

31:40

when she started dating a man she liked.

31:42

They got on really well, but

31:44

they drove around together a lot. And he

31:47

had this one habit that made her feel awkward.

31:49

He was really quiet on car rides.

31:52

But Alicia knew The Rules backwards and forwards,

31:54

and the book stated exactly what to do in

31:57

this situation.

31:58

Sometimes men just want to be alone.

31:59

to drive in silence without saying a word.

32:03

Let them." So she did, even

32:05

though it was hard. Sometimes I would

32:07

sit there thinking, is he in the

32:09

knee? I guess he is, he has his hand on my knee.

32:11

So, you know, he's into

32:14

me, but he's just not saying much. He

32:16

was into her.

32:17

They got married in 2018.

32:20

Alicia appreciated the rules so much that

32:22

even before she got married, she became a certified

32:25

rules coach. This means she

32:27

took one of Shari and Ellen's courses and is now

32:29

officially qualified, not to mention

32:31

financially incentivized, to spread the

32:33

gospel of the rules far and wide.

32:36

Alicia is hardly the only woman out there

32:38

to have discovered the

32:39

rules in the last decade.

32:41

If you go on Facebook, you can find groups with

32:43

hundreds of members following the rules together.

32:46

And the rules live on in other ways as well. Listen

32:49

to this video from Tinks, a popular TikTok

32:51

creator, who frequently doles out dating advice

32:53

to her 1.5

32:54

million followers. She starts

32:57

by telling them what not to do.

32:59

Except a same day date. The

33:01

guy wants to take you out. He should text you on

33:03

Monday. None of this when we hanging

33:05

bullshit. And if a guy asks you, Hey,

33:07

what are you doing tonight? You're busy. Even

33:09

if your only plan was to sit home

33:11

and watch Bravo and eat popcorn

33:13

and ice cream.

33:14

And don't even think about accepting weekend plans

33:16

after Wednesday.

33:17

Sounds pretty familiar, right?

33:21

When they first published the rules,

33:23

Shari and Ellen wrote down and codified

33:25

by their own admission, pre-existing

33:27

advice that they were savvy enough to revive

33:29

at a rare moment when it had fallen out of favor.

33:32

And it caught on again because, specific

33:34

advice aside, it addressed a real conundrum.

33:37

Women had made all of these advances

33:40

and yet dating still sucked. And

33:42

as much as things have changed in the 30 years since,

33:45

that has not. Dating still

33:47

sucks. Online dating may have

33:49

opened up a world of infinite possibility, but

33:52

nearly every woman I know feels like it hasn't

33:54

helped. Just like it did in the early

33:56

1990s, everything feels more confusing

33:59

than ever. Sherry agrees, and

34:01

will tell you that's why the rules are more necessary

34:04

than ever.

34:05

There's more technology, less

34:07

mystery. Like, it used to be that you went

34:09

on a date, you couldn't find out anything

34:12

about each

34:12

other. Having said that,

34:15

if you do the rules in every area,

34:17

you can create mystery. I

34:19

know when I first got on dating apps, I wasn't

34:22

sitting there flipping

34:22

through the rules. I only dimly knew

34:24

of the book's existence. But I also

34:27

totally knew this kind of advice existed,

34:29

in the way it's always existed.

34:31

And one of the things that quelled my anxiety

34:33

was knowing that I could let the guys take

34:35

the lead. Let

34:36

him talk to me, like Rule No. 2 says,

34:38

or let him text me, like Rule No. 5 would

34:41

say if texting had existed in 1995.

34:46

If I scrutinize this, I can't defend

34:48

it. It doesn't seem at all fair or sensible

34:50

that men should have to

34:51

take the lead. But also,

34:53

I

34:54

sure as hell don't want to do it.

34:56

It's a release to follow the age-old

34:59

heterosexual script, however lousy

35:01

it is. The comfort

35:03

of flipping into these classic hetero-rolls

35:06

is the heart of the problem. Our most

35:08

intimate and personal relationships and attractions

35:11

can be the last things to accept equality.

35:15

Think about another area where women are

35:17

sometimes advised to be assertive, to act

35:20

essentially like a man. We're

35:24

often told that we aren't paid as much as men

35:26

on average because we don't ask for higher

35:29

salaries. But this ignores that

35:31

women aren't treated the same when

35:32

we do ask.

35:34

People may say that they have no problem

35:36

with a woman being forward or asking

35:38

for what she wants.

35:40

But do they call her aggressive and dismiss

35:42

her in practice? The rules has

35:44

advice on how to handle this double standard.

35:47

It says you can get around it by behaving

35:49

how women used to. Not because

35:51

you're some passee, but because you're the

35:53

one in

35:53

control.

35:54

The rule says letting a man take the lead

35:57

isn't about being passive. It's about

35:59

her active trying to find a man who will

36:01

make an effort, something that, in

36:03

my experience on apps, they so rarely

36:05

do.

36:06

And it promises that if you follow the

36:08

rules, you can get what you want,

36:11

which in the middle of the dating quagmire can

36:13

take a lot of optimism and fortitude to

36:15

believe.

36:17

So I don't begrudge anyone who follows

36:19

the rule. They're not idealistic

36:22

or romantic or how I want to be dating,

36:24

but I see the kind of certitude they can bring

36:27

people.

36:27

And so I find myself thinking about

36:30

them, seeing them everywhere, noticing

36:33

people still using them, wondering if

36:35

I should, and hoping that one day

36:37

I'll have forgotten how hard dating was

36:39

and how much I once

36:40

cared about some silly old rule.

36:49

This is Decoder Ring. I'm Heather

36:51

Schwedel.

36:53

And I'm Willa Paskin. If you have any cultural

36:55

mysteries you want us to decode, please email

36:58

us at decoderring at slate.com.

37:01

This episode was written and reported by Heather

37:03

Schwedel. Decoder Ring is produced by Willa

37:05

Paskin and Katie Sheppard. Derek John

37:08

is executive producer. Joel Meyer is

37:10

senior

37:10

editor producer. And Merrick

37:11

Jacob is senior technical director. We'd

37:14

like to thank Benjamin Frisch, Rachel O'Neill,

37:16

Penny Love, Heather Fain, Ellis

37:18

Bachman, Laura Banks, Marlene Velasquez-Sedito,

37:22

Lee Anderson, and Caroline Smith.

37:24

We also want to mention two sources that were really

37:27

helpful

37:27

in researching this piece, Labor

37:29

of Love by Moira Weigel and a paper

37:31

called Shrinking, Violous, and Casper

37:34

Milk Toast by Patricia McDaniel.

37:36

If you haven't yet, please subscribe and rate

37:39

our feed on Apple Podcasts

37:40

or wherever you get your podcasts. And

37:43

also tell your friends. If you're a fan

37:45

of the show, I'd also love for you to sign up for Slate

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Plus. Slate Plus members get to listen to

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Decoder Ring without any ads, and their

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support is really important to our work. So

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please go to slate.com slash Decoder

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Plus to join Slate Plus today.

37:59

See you next week.

38:01

Hey

38:04

everybody, it's Tim Heidecker. You know me, Tim

38:06

and Eric, bridesmaids, and Fantastic

38:09

Four. I'd like to personally invite you

38:11

to listen to Office Hours Live with me and my

38:13

co-hosts DJ, Doug Pound. Hello.

38:16

And Vic Berger. Howdy. Every

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week we bring you laughs, fun, games, and lots of other surprises.

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It's live. We take your Zoom calls. We

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love having fun. Excuse me? Songs.

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Vic said something. Music. Songs.

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I love you. I love you. I

38:31

love you. The people who can make you.