0:03

I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of

0:05

Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write

0:08

the Dear Therapists advice column for the Atlantic.

0:10

And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of

0:13

Emotional First Aid, and I write the Dear

0:15

Guy advice column for Ted. And

0:17

this is Dear Therapists.

0:19

Each week we invite you into a real session

0:21

where we help people confront the problems in their

0:24

lives and then give them actionable advice

0:26

and have them report back to let us know what happened

0:29

when they did what we suggested.

0:30

So sit back and welcome to

0:32

today's session. This

0:35

week, a woman whose parents are pressuring

0:37

her to get married and have a baby, wonders

0:39

how to set boundaries with her family.

0:42

When I was twenty three, he would say, oh, no,

0:44

she doesn't need to get married yet. She's so young,

0:47

she has time. And then you know, in a couple

0:49

of years after that, it's all you're too old, you

0:51

don't have time.

0:52

First a quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational

0:55

purposes only. It does not constitute

0:57

medical or psychological advice, and is not a substitute

0:59

for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or

1:01

treatment by submitting a letter, you are agreeing

1:03

to let iHeartMedia use it in part orn full,

1:06

and we may edit it for length and clarity. In

1:08

the session, you'll hear all names have been changed for the

1:10

privacy of our guests.

1:15

Hi Laurie, Hi Guy.

1:17

So I took a little peek in our mailbox because

1:19

I couldn't help it, and I saw that we have a lot of

1:21

letters, and I'm really curious to hear what

1:24

we're going to be talking about today.

1:26

Well, today we have a letter about

1:28

setting boundaries, and it

1:30

goes like this, deotherapists,

1:33

I need help navigating the pressures that

1:35

my family is putting on me and my partner

1:38

as I get older. When I was younger,

1:40

they expected me to study hard. During

1:42

that time, I met my partner, who is the

1:45

same age as me. We have now

1:47

been together ten years and are approaching

1:49

our thirties. My brother got

1:51

married, and now my parents are pressuring

1:53

me to push my partner to propose so

1:55

we can get married and have a baby. My partner

1:58

and I have discussed this and it will come,

2:00

but he's not ready just yet. I've

2:02

tried to set boundaries with my parents and to

2:04

listen to their concerns. However,

2:06

they continue to bring up the issue, which pressures

2:09

me and causes me to fight with my partner

2:11

in order to try to please my parents. I'm

2:13

exhausted by trying to get my parents to be

2:15

quiet about it. I have incredible anxiety

2:18

about this, and while I know my family loves me,

2:20

I feel incredibly judged by them and

2:22

like I'm disappointing them. I'd love some help

2:25

getting my parents to stop asking me about this

2:27

once and for all. Thanks Alexis

2:30

Well.

2:30

Alexis is really caught in the middle

2:33

of her past and her present.

2:36

She's still in this phase where intellectually,

2:39

as an adult, she says, I know I need to

2:41

live my life for me and not

2:44

do things solely to please my parents.

2:46

But on the other hand, she still

2:49

feels that pressure to

2:52

make sure that, as she said, she's not

2:54

disappointing them. And

2:56

I think it's great that she and her partner

2:58

have already discussed this and they

3:01

together have come to a consensus. So

3:03

it's not one of those letters of one of us wants

3:05

to move forward and have children and the other one

3:07

doesn't. They seem to be on the same page. The

3:10

question is how can she get that voice

3:12

out of her head around I don't

3:14

want to disappoint my parents.

3:16

It's interesting because they've been together for ten years,

3:18

and the parents might be thinking ten

3:20

years, why aren't you married

3:23

yet? And I don't know how much she's had a full

3:25

discussion with her parents about what

3:27

really their concerns are. Are they worried

3:30

he actually won't or are they

3:32

just worried that it looks bad. So it'd

3:34

be interesting to hear more about what

3:37

those discussions have been like so far.

3:39

And I think the important thing here is that she doesn't really

3:41

need to explain to her parents why things

3:44

are the way they are. I think what the parents need

3:46

to know is that she and her partner feel good

3:48

about whatever they've decided, because

3:51

that's very different from her having to justify

3:53

to her parents we're doing it this

3:55

way because I agree.

3:57

And I would like to confirm indeed that she does

3:59

feel good about it, whether

4:02

she's fully on board with waiting. But

4:04

let's go talk to her and find out.

4:06

Yes, let's go talk to her.

4:10

You're listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart

4:12

Radio. We'll be back after a short break.

4:22

I'm Laurie Gottlieb.

4:23

And I'm Guy Wench and this is Dear

4:25

Therapists. So

4:28

hi, alexis, welcome to the show.

4:31

Thanks for having me.

4:32

Guys, we'd like you to start, perhaps

4:34

by telling us a little bit about the relationship,

4:36

how you met your boyfriend, how

4:39

things went, and how things are right now.

4:41

So I met my boyfriend when I

4:43

was about eighteen years

4:45

old, so I was a white tressing and I met

4:48

him through that. And

4:50

our own families have their own complex

4:53

relationship that neither of us knew at

4:55

the time of a meeting. So that complex relationship

4:58

wasn't something my dad as extremely

5:00

happy about it at the time. But as my

5:03

dad got to know my boyfriend, he definitely

5:05

softened to him. He's a really kind

5:08

and gentle person, and so my dad really

5:10

took to that and our relationship

5:12

got a lot stronger as a result. We are

5:14

in the process of now building our first

5:16

home and moving in together, but

5:19

that has created some of its own complexities

5:21

with my family, particularly gain my dad,

5:24

who feels that we've

5:26

been together long enough that maybe our relationship

5:28

should look a little different to what it currently

5:30

does.

5:31

Can you tell us more about the complicated

5:34

relationship.

5:36

So our parents had

5:38

known each other when they were younger. Both

5:41

our dads had worked in the same industry

5:43

and they had clashed a little bit

5:45

in that industry, and so my

5:48

dad just didn't like that idea

5:50

that I was dating a guy that he

5:52

had clashed with their father.

5:54

And did your boyfriend's dad also have concerns

5:57

like that at the beginning?

5:58

Probably My boyfriend's dad's not much of

6:00

a share a talker. My

6:03

parents and his parents still don't

6:06

talk. I don't think. I think I could

6:08

probably count on one

6:10

hand the number of times we've all been in the

6:12

same room at the same time.

6:14

How have you and your boyfriend talked

6:16

about the fact that there is this tension

6:19

between both sets of parents.

6:21

When I was younger, I think it used to concern me

6:23

a lot more. For him, it was more

6:26

of a will work it out. We love

6:28

each other when it's our relationship, and that's

6:30

what matters. I should say that we

6:32

both get along with each other's family, and

6:35

that took a little bit of time. My

6:37

family was more open to welcoming

6:40

him. His family were a little less

6:42

open. I don't know if that was because of the complex

6:44

relationship or just because of his own complex

6:47

relationship with his own family. It's

6:49

just that when you think about having a wedding, I

6:52

don't think anything terrible would happen,

6:54

but I get anxious that

6:57

there would be some uncomfortableness or awkwardness.

6:59

But I do have trust in my family that if

7:02

it was a big celebratory event,

7:04

that they would be my supports

7:06

and be able to talk and

7:08

play nice.

7:09

Basically, what has it been like

7:12

to talk with your boyfriend

7:14

about the fact that your families don't

7:16

get along.

7:17

To be honest, uncomfortable and

7:19

I think we avoid it regularly.

7:23

For me, it definitely feels

7:26

stressful and anxiety provoking

7:29

at times. He's a more laid

7:31

back person, so when I

7:34

have talked about it with him, he's very

7:36

much like, it'll

7:39

be fine. I wouldn't worry about

7:41

it, but I do worry

7:44

about it.

7:45

What are you worried about, specifically?

7:48

Just whether it would be

7:50

uncomfortable when we do have family

7:53

events that I would lack our whole

7:55

family to be at, whether everyone

7:58

will sort of get along, whether they'll say

8:00

something that will upset somebody

8:02

else.

8:03

Who are the characters that you're most concerned

8:05

about their two sets of parents. You get

8:07

along with his, he gets along with yours,

8:10

his mom.

8:11

And dad probably upsetting my mom

8:13

and dad, or my mom and dad somehow upsetting

8:16

his mom and dad. And I wonder if that's just

8:19

like a warrior I have in my mind, that wouldn't

8:21

actually happen. It's been so long

8:23

since they'd had any conflict. Almost twenty

8:25

years ago they had their conflict.

8:27

How do you feel about the fact that this happened

8:29

so long ago, and that the two of

8:31

you have been together for ten years, and

8:34

that your parents, and

8:37

by your I mean both sets of parents have

8:40

not been able to rise to the

8:42

occasion and somehow

8:45

mend whatever they need to mend, or

8:47

at least find some way of being

8:50

civil with each other.

8:51

Now, as my brothers have partners

8:54

and their partner's families come

8:56

to different things, it feels less normal.

8:58

But it felt normal at that because I didn't

9:00

have a lot to model it off.

9:04

In a young relationship. We go to

9:06

their house for their occasions, you

9:08

know, we go to my house for my occasions,

9:10

and that just felt normalized

9:13

to me.

9:14

But I don't think it feels normal because

9:16

you think about it a lot and you worry

9:18

about it a lot.

9:21

I think about it now, and I worry

9:23

about it now. We

9:25

recently had my brother's engagement

9:28

and then his wedding, and seeing

9:30

everyone getting along nicely and laughing

9:32

and happy, that makes me worry.

9:35

I don't even think we've allowed

9:38

them the opportunity to try

9:41

and do so. And I think that

9:43

would be because I

9:45

get worried that something will happen and

9:47

that I will have to have

9:49

an argument with my family

9:51

defending my partner or

9:53

my partner's family, so I haven't

9:56

allowed it.

9:57

How much do you think your

9:59

parents leave are getting

10:01

from you this mixed message about

10:05

I want you to make this

10:07

easier on the one hand, but I

10:09

actually would rather avoid the entire thing

10:11

for as long as possible because I'm worried that it

10:13

will cause a big

10:16

problem.

10:17

Yeah, yeah, I am giving those

10:19

mixed messages.

10:21

Other than by not bringing it up,

10:23

in what other ways do you think you might have communicated

10:27

that hesitancy.

10:29

The avoid part is more

10:31

strong for me. Don't bring it up, don't

10:33

talk about it, don't invite to birthdays

10:36

or Christmas events. We all live

10:39

in the same area, and I know that they have run

10:41

into each other and they have actually,

10:44

you know, said hello to each other or waved

10:46

at each other. And so there is some

10:49

give there. But when I ever think

10:51

about them running into each other, it makes me so

10:53

anxious that when my family

10:55

started shopping at a different shopping

10:57

location, I was happy that

11:00

they weren't running into each other. The times

11:02

they have bumped into each other haven't been

11:05

terrible, but I still avoid trying

11:09

to bring that together or have some sort of repair

11:11

in those relationships.

11:12

And just to clarify, the worry is that

11:15

there'll be some kind of bruhaha between

11:17

the two parents, or that there

11:20

will be an issue with the parents, and then

11:22

that will create an issue with you and your boyfriend.

11:25

There will be an issue with the parents, and that will

11:27

create an issue for either me or my boyfriend,

11:29

or just an issue that I have to somehow

11:32

fix. I don't care if they don't

11:35

get along per se. I just care

11:37

if they say something that I have to then

11:39

deal with.

11:40

Why would you have to be the one

11:42

to help the adults get along

11:44

with each other?

11:46

That is my role in my family.

11:48

My role in the family is the peacekeeper,

11:51

the responsible one, the helper.

11:54

So an example might be when

11:58

we were at my brother's wedding, I think

12:01

someone had made a comment to my

12:03

partner, oh, it is your turn to

12:05

get married now, and my partner had said

12:07

something like, oh, not yet, and

12:10

so someone fed that back

12:12

to my dad, and then my dad comes up

12:14

to me a week later and says,

12:16

your boyfriend said this at

12:18

the wedding. And he says

12:21

it in a tone that makes

12:23

you feel that he's so disappointed.

12:27

And then I feel

12:29

anxious. I feel like

12:31

I'm letting people down and

12:34

that I have to justify where we're at

12:37

and why we're at where we're at.

12:39

Can I ask is there a part of you

12:42

that feels a little bit like your parents

12:45

in the sense of are you comfortable

12:48

with where you're at in the relationship

12:50

with your boyfriend? You said you're both approaching

12:52

your thirties. Is

12:54

there a part of you that wonders,

12:58

is my boyfriend going to be ready?

13:00

Sometimes there is, but more and more

13:03

over the past couple of years, we're having

13:05

those more serious conversations,

13:08

which, again I'd like to avoid big

13:10

conversations, but we have been having them. And

13:12

he wants to wait to get married to when we live

13:14

in our house and that'll be all things

13:17

going well at the end of this year. And he just

13:19

says, I have this idea of that moment

13:21

in my mind when we

13:24

get engaged in what that looks like, and it

13:26

involves us being in our home

13:28

and starting our life on our

13:31

path in our time. So I think

13:34

when I initially pictured all

13:37

of those things when I was younger, everything

13:40

was earlier than what it is now. I

13:43

was told you do this by this age,

13:45

and this is the order you do things in, and you don't

13:48

stray from that line. But

13:50

I'm also very happy with my

13:53

relationship, and I think that's

13:55

more important to me than this

13:58

idea that my parents

14:00

or my dad might have in his head of what

14:03

happiness in relationships looks like

14:05

at different stages.

14:07

You said you avoid these conversations with

14:09

your boyfriend and that

14:12

you don't really share with him all of these

14:14

worries that you have. And

14:16

I'm curious about why not, Because right now,

14:18

in your head, Alexis, it falls

14:21

to you to be the helper and

14:23

the fixer of everything, and

14:26

I'm curious about why you don't share

14:28

with him. Hey, this is what worries me.

14:30

It's not our timetable, it's how

14:33

well our parents will play together and how

14:35

difficult that will make life for

14:37

us.

14:38

I don't share with anyone, but

14:40

I never have. I don't

14:42

know if it's I should be able

14:44

to just get over it or

14:47

manage it, or maybe they're silly

14:49

worries. I don't know.

14:50

You're tearing up a little bit as you say

14:52

that when you say I don't share with anyone. Why

14:56

is it that you feel

14:58

you have to carry these burdens alone?

15:01

He sounds like a supportive, nice person, Your

15:03

boyfriend. Why do you feel he

15:06

wouldn't be able to be there for you.

15:08

I don't know if it's about him

15:12

or if it's just about That's

15:15

how I've done things my

15:17

whole life. I don't share my

15:20

feelings. I don't share my feelings

15:22

or when I'm sad or when

15:26

I'm worried with anyone. I haven't

15:29

felt like anyone

15:33

has

15:38

been able to.

15:42

Without it making them uncomfortable

15:44

be there for me in the past.

15:47

What would happen when you were younger and you tried

15:49

to share a feelings sad with your parents?

15:52

It would make them

15:55

sad, or if

15:58

I was sad for too long, it would make

16:00

them angry. I

16:03

would be told, you know that's

16:05

enough now, or don't

16:07

be silly. My dad was really sick

16:10

when we were growing up, so

16:13

I didn't want to burden any

16:15

of them with my own feelings.

16:18

I just decided to

16:22

deal with everything on my own.

16:24

At what age did you decide.

16:26

That the pic cock's like a

16:28

left what tip? So

16:31

that was when my dad was first diagnosed

16:34

with cancer. I

16:36

feel like I've always been the responsible

16:38

one anyway. It was pretty much set out

16:40

for me, firstborn female

16:44

in a half ethnic family.

16:47

It always felt like a lot to

16:49

live up to, the perfect one. It doesn't

16:51

get sad, it doesn't get worried, it

16:54

doesn't burden other people. You just go

16:56

on. And then when my dad got sick,

16:59

they came up with this story

17:03

that didn't say Dad

17:06

has cancer. It made me feel like they

17:08

felt that I wouldn't

17:10

be able to cope

17:13

knowing even though I

17:15

was old enough to know why

17:18

my dad had to shave all his hair off. And

17:20

so I called him out and I said, in a very

17:22

angry way, how stupid

17:25

do you think I am? I know dad has cancer?

17:27

And then I sort of took

17:29

myself to my room and refused to speak to

17:31

anyone. And then I just I cried then,

17:34

but not in front of anyone. And when I'd

17:36

composed myself I just made a decision

17:39

to not be sad about it anymore. I thought,

17:41

well, if I show them that I'm

17:43

strong and I'm not sad, then they

17:45

won't be sad anymore, and none of us

17:47

have to be sad.

17:48

But then it's a family dynamic of

17:51

you don't burden each other with each

17:53

other's feelings because you assume

17:55

that they can't handle it, and they assume

17:57

that you can't handle it. So

18:00

that's something you do to one another. Has it occurred

18:02

to you, you're doing back to them what they did.

18:05

It hasn't occurred to me. It makes a lot of

18:07

sense. This is so generationally

18:10

ingrained in my family.

18:13

You lie about

18:15

how serious something is.

18:18

This is just something that my

18:20

whole family does.

18:22

But Alexis, what I'm pointing out is not that

18:25

you lie about it. The why you lie

18:27

about it because you assume that

18:29

the other people can't handle it like

18:31

they assumed you couldn't. You were perfectly capable

18:34

of and you were annoyed by that. And it's possible

18:37

they are capable too.

18:39

It's possible. But when I have

18:41

shown periods of vulnerability

18:43

with my parents, it upsets

18:45

them and they don't

18:48

like prolonged emotion.

18:50

If I have, even as

18:52

a teenager, cried for

18:55

any reason and it's gone on longer

18:58

than what they can tolerate, I

19:00

have been told that's enough, now

19:03

stop crying.

19:04

I think the word tolerate is so important

19:07

here. Instead of saying how can

19:09

I sit with you in your sadness,

19:12

they feel discomfort because

19:14

your sadness brings up something

19:17

that they can't tolerate, some discomfort in them.

19:20

And just like you did the same thing when

19:23

you said, I know dad has

19:25

cancer, and then instead

19:27

of getting comfort from them, you went

19:29

to your room and closed

19:32

the door. So everybody

19:35

feels like I can maybe show a

19:37

glimpse of something anger sadness,

19:39

but then we don't want it to

19:41

go on too long. So, as you said, you made

19:43

a decision not to be sad.

19:46

Yeah, but you can't just decide yourself

19:48

out of sadness. You made a decision not to

19:50

show your sadness, yeah,

19:52

but you were still sad.

19:54

Yeah.

19:54

I'm curious to hear more about that. When

19:57

your dad was going through his treatment

20:00

cancer, what was that like

20:02

for you? You were eleven.

20:03

To be honest, I don't know how I

20:05

felt. I think I completely

20:08

switched myself off I

20:10

ignored everything

20:14

and didn't ask about

20:16

it, and I pretended that it wasn't happening.

20:18

So when my dad was in hospital,

20:22

I didn't go to the hospital because

20:25

then I didn't have to see

20:27

what was happening. So I think

20:30

I was terrified, but

20:33

I ignored all of that.

20:35

Did your parents try to ask you how

20:38

you were feeling and why you didn't want to go to the

20:40

hospital.

20:41

Yeah, and I gave them

20:43

I just don't want to see my dad like that, or

20:47

everything will be fine, So

20:49

if you just be positive, then

20:52

everything will get better.

20:54

And how did they respond to that?

20:55

I think my dad agreed with that. He

20:58

didn't want to talk about it either, so he

21:00

made him feel,

21:02

Wow, she can be so

21:04

strong, so I can be strong, because

21:06

he would then say the same things

21:09

that I was saying, you know, let's not

21:11

talk about it, let's not worry about it.

21:14

I will be fine. I'll get through

21:16

this. And his prognosis

21:18

was I should mention very serious.

21:20

He was given three months to live, but he

21:23

defied all odds on

21:26

three separate occasions

21:28

and he is still here. So

21:31

I also feel now as an adult,

21:33

guilty when I feel like I'm

21:35

disappointing him or not living

21:38

up to what he would like for

21:41

me?

21:42

Was this going on in the whole family, meaning

21:45

your brothers as well, we're not talking

21:47

about it.

21:48

I don't remember ever talking to my

21:50

brothers about it.

21:51

I just.

21:53

Remember thinking, they're, you know,

21:56

about eight and six,

22:00

and they got given this story, so.

22:03

You had to hold the true story and they

22:05

believed something else.

22:07

Yeah, it was when I got told

22:09

that. I was just angry. But I

22:12

was just angry because it was happening,

22:15

not because they

22:18

lived. I was just angry that my

22:21

happy life had to get

22:23

really serious.

22:25

Well, you're probably much more than just angry.

22:27

There were probably all kanes of feelings

22:30

that were going on. What about

22:32

friends? Did friends notice? Did

22:34

you talk to any friends or did you feel that would be disloyal?

22:37

Did any friends say, what's going on with your dad?

22:39

It looks Unwell.

22:40

I didn't talk to any friends. I have a lot of

22:42

cousins that are very close with I

22:44

didn't talk to anyone. I know. My school

22:46

knew because they sent the school

22:49

counselor and

22:51

I said, I'm fine. I didn't talk

22:53

about it, and nobody asked me.

22:56

That's really interesting to me now

22:58

as an adult, I recently came to my mum

23:01

and I said, Mom, I think I had an

23:03

eating disorder when I was at

23:05

school. And she said,

23:07

yeah, I know. We took you

23:09

once to a doctor and

23:12

they told us not to tell you and

23:16

just it'll figure itself out.

23:18

How old were you when you had an eating disorder?

23:21

I have so many memories of

23:23

being in high school, maybe

23:25

fourteen or fifteen, and

23:28

it wasn't about my body at all,

23:30

Like I didn't ever have any thoughts like that.

23:33

You know, I was big or this or that, but I

23:35

was obsessed with

23:38

food and rules around food.

23:40

And then I would only eat this

23:42

very specific food. So my

23:45

parents would just only buy that one thing,

23:47

and I wouldn't eat breakfast and I would

23:49

throw my food away at school. When

23:52

I became an adult, I just loved

23:55

cooking, but not

23:57

so that I could eat it. I would cook so

24:00

that other people could

24:02

eat that food. But you know, i'd convinced

24:04

myself up until maybe

24:07

four years ago, I didn't like

24:09

anything sweet. So on birthdays

24:13

I watched others enjoy food,

24:17

but I never let myself.

24:20

Even on your birthday, I just would

24:22

say.

24:22

No, I don't like cake, and everyone just said,

24:24

okay.

24:25

That's such a metaphor for

24:28

the way that it's all about

24:30

taking care of other people and depriving

24:33

yourself. That deprivation,

24:36

whether it's the deprivation of the joy

24:38

of eating something delicious, whether

24:41

it's the deprivation of getting

24:43

comfort when you're feeling sad or

24:46

scared or angry. And

24:48

again, as part of that metaphor, nobody questioning

24:51

why is this happening? And

24:54

even though your parents noticed and they took you to a

24:56

doctor, it was never discussed with

24:58

you.

24:59

No, and took credit to my boyfriend.

25:03

He knew that I wouldn't

25:05

eat, and he would dish

25:08

up food for me, and he would say,

25:10

we have to eat this together, and I would

25:12

really like if you ate the whole bowl

25:14

of this pasta or the whole bowl

25:17

of this food. And I remember i'd

25:20

go to his mom's house for dinner and he'd say,

25:22

you sit down, and I would dish up for you and

25:24

he'd sit with me. We'd get a roll

25:26

together, and I'd take a few bites

25:28

and he'd say, I'd really like it if you could

25:30

eat half. And I didn't know

25:34

what he was doing, but he

25:37

lent me just enjoy food.

25:39

It was just like, hey, you need energy,

25:42

you need to eat, let me sit with you, let

25:44

me eat with you. And I've

25:46

never talked to him about that. Even

25:49

funnily, as I say it, I haven't even said thank

25:51

you.

25:52

So he was saying to you, I

25:54

want you to

25:56

feel good. I

25:58

want you to experience joy

26:02

instead of just making sure everybody

26:05

else is enjoying the meal. And he was

26:07

almost giving you permission that

26:09

I think that you don't give yourself or

26:11

you hadn't been given yourself that I'm

26:13

not allowed so

26:15

I have to deprive myself. And he was saying,

26:19

I'm encouraging you to

26:21

stop depriving yourself. And

26:24

I wonder why, given how

26:27

meaningful that must have been, and

26:30

you're having such an emotional reaction to it

26:32

now, what has prevented you from

26:34

saying that was so meaningful

26:37

for me.

26:38

I don't like to show vulnerability

26:41

or that I need other

26:43

people. As you were talking, I was thinking

26:47

about other times where I've

26:49

needed comfort or support and

26:52

how I would let a little bit in from

26:54

my boyfriend and then I

26:57

would consciously shut off

26:59

and tell myself that's enough. Now, no, I'm

27:01

crying.

27:02

That's what your parents said, and I.

27:03

Would do it to myself and I'm just thinking

27:06

in my head, I don't want

27:09

to rely on anybody

27:11

except myself, because I hadn't been

27:13

able to for so long, and

27:16

that makes me feel sad because

27:20

it stops us connecting in

27:22

a lot of ways too.

27:24

I'm thinking about this idea of

27:27

how scary it is to rely on somebody

27:29

else. Those are the words you used, yeah,

27:32

as opposed to thinking of it as I'm

27:34

getting support from somebody. But

27:37

what happened in your family is you were told,

27:39

Okay, that's enough. You've been sad

27:41

for long enough, we need to stop this. And

27:44

so you learned that you can't actually rely on

27:46

other people. And that's very scary

27:48

for a child to think I can't

27:50

rely on anybody. I have to deal with

27:52

this all on my own. And

27:55

when you talk about the behaviors around food,

27:58

they were a way to control your envice. It

28:01

was I have all these very specific

28:04

rules, and these very specific rules keep

28:06

me safe. I don't rely on food,

28:09

I don't rely on people. I don't need

28:11

anything. I create the

28:13

rules, though, so I'm in control. And

28:16

when you open up to someone, it

28:18

still feels to you like you're

28:20

seeding control in some way,

28:23

that somehow, if I open

28:25

up to him. I'm not in

28:27

control anymore.

28:28

Yeah, that's exactly that.

28:31

But I think what you're not seeing is

28:33

that you're not in control by hiding

28:35

your feelings either.

28:37

Yeah.

28:38

I think Alexis your boyfriend has

28:40

learned long ago, probably with you,

28:43

that he can't bring up things directly

28:46

because that something you avoid

28:48

that would upset you. So he has

28:51

to talk about stuff been

28:54

a roundabout way. Instead of saying,

28:56

I'm concerned about your relationship

28:58

with food, he says,

29:01

let's just try and get to half. But

29:03

he doesn't talk about the thing. And

29:05

I know that you think that it's probably

29:08

because he's uncomfortable, but

29:10

he sounds like he's responding

29:13

to the very clear messaging from

29:15

you that you are the one that's

29:17

really uncomfortable, so let's not

29:20

have that kind of conversation. And he's

29:22

hearing that. He's trying to be there for

29:24

you in the ways in which you allow

29:27

him to be, but

29:29

there are many ways in which you don't

29:32

allow him to be. Yeah,

29:34

do you think if you did allow

29:37

yourself to be more vulnerable with him? And by

29:39

more vulnerable, what I mean is just have some of

29:41

these conversations some of the

29:43

time in a direct way. Do

29:46

you think he would be able to be there

29:48

for you and be supportive?

29:50

Yeah, I do. We had

29:52

some other really serious

29:54

family stuff happen a couple

29:57

of years ago. I could not manage

29:59

it a because it was really scary. The feelings

30:02

were really big. What was going on My

30:04

youngest brother. He had

30:07

a heart attack from an overdose on

30:09

cocaine, and he

30:11

had actually been pronounced dead. He

30:14

was resuscitated several times, and then

30:16

was you know, I see you in a coma, and

30:19

we were told that he would be permanently

30:22

in a vegetative state for

30:25

the rest of his life. And I couldn't manage

30:28

that. I should mention that. By some

30:30

miracle, about

30:33

eight hours after that conversation,

30:35

which was a few days after his heart attack, he

30:37

did wake up. But I could not deal

30:40

with that on my own. And he

30:43

did such a good job of even

30:47

getting me to have

30:49

a shower and coming in that

30:51

shower and washing my hair because I couldn't

30:54

do any of that.

30:55

Could you talk to him about how

30:58

you were feeling in that moment. Yeah.

31:01

We'd spent one night

31:03

up all night just laying

31:06

in bed, and he would just listen to

31:08

what I was saying. And say I'm here and

31:10

just holding me.

31:12

That's lovely and it's supportive and it's so

31:14

present, But it takes a lot for

31:16

you to allow even that. Right, You're

31:18

right.

31:20

I let him in that night and

31:22

then I switched off.

31:24

You allowed him to care for you. But that night,

31:26

as he's caring for you, were able to express

31:29

anything about how you're feeling to

31:32

him.

31:33

Yeah, I was terrified and sad

31:35

and scared, and I told him that. But I also

31:37

told him that I

31:39

was scared about all the responsibility

31:41

that I thought that I had to take

31:44

now in this new role that I started

31:47

to picture that night where my

31:49

parents were cares for my brother, and I envisioned

31:51

myself now being a

31:54

care for three people, not just

31:57

my brother, but my mom and my dad. And I told

31:59

him that how did that feel to you? It

32:01

just felt scared. It made me feel really

32:04

weak to feel so

32:07

vulnerable because I'm

32:09

smart, I should just figure

32:13

out what to do and do it. And I didn't

32:15

like that I felt so

32:18

vulnerable with somebody else.

32:21

I want you to hear what this sounds like. Your

32:24

brother is in a coma and

32:27

you're told he'll be in a vegetative state

32:29

for the rest of his life. And

32:31

you're saying I

32:33

felt like I shouldn't be having these

32:36

feelings. If somebody else

32:39

had a brother in a coma who

32:41

might be in a vegetative state for the rest of his life,

32:44

would you feel that that person shouldn't be having

32:47

those feelings. They're smart, so they shouldn't

32:49

be having those feelings because they know better.

32:51

I know how stupid

32:53

it sounds when I say it out loudly.

32:56

It makes no sense because I

32:59

would expect that of any other

33:01

person. I would expect

33:04

more than bigger emotions, not to

33:07

just say, okay, well,

33:09

this is a problem that.

33:10

We just deal with.

33:11

Whose voice is that?

33:13

I want to say it's mine, but I think it's my

33:15

dad. Yeah. I feel bad saying that, but I

33:17

think it is his voice.

33:19

And the thing is that exists that you

33:21

do know better. As you said, you

33:24

do have very different judgment

33:26

about other people expressing vulnerability

33:29

in certain moments. I'm

33:31

even going to assume that you know that it's a

33:33

healthy response

33:35

and that there's something not so great about

33:38

stuffing all those feelings down. Yeah,

33:41

and yet you say I know it's stupid. It's

33:43

not stupid because it's fear based and

33:45

so the fear is, if

33:48

I become too vulnerable,

33:50

you'll be derelicting all your other duties

33:53

towards family members and other people

33:55

for whom you, from a very young age felt

33:57

a certain responsibility. So

34:00

how much do you feel in touch with

34:03

that real fear about

34:05

what terrible things can happen

34:08

if you let yourself be

34:10

vulnerable in a much more profound way

34:13

than you have so far?

34:15

Right now, I can intellectually

34:17

understand it, but emotionally, something's

34:20

happened in me, and I've pushed that.

34:22

Back down because you can see that growing

34:24

up, with the experiences that you've had,

34:28

there was a lot of practice in pushing things down.

34:30

But it takes your brother to be in an overdose

34:33

vegetative state for you to allow yourself

34:35

a night. We've getting some support from somebody

34:37

who loves you and wants to give it to you, but

34:40

that's what it takes, and even then you only earn

34:42

a night.

34:43

That's scary to me as well, that

34:46

it takes such extreme for

34:49

me to share

34:53

anything other than

34:55

this sort of perfect

34:59

robotic version of whatever

35:01

I think people expect

35:04

or with lack from me, rather

35:07

than just letting myself be or

35:09

feel or just show

35:13

that I'm not okay sometimes too.

35:16

And especially with someone who's

35:18

proven himself being capable

35:21

of being there for you in an exquisitely

35:24

delicate way. So

35:27

is it as scary to let him see

35:29

that vulnerable side as it is other

35:31

people?

35:32

It shouldn't be. But

35:34

I don't know where to start or how

35:37

to start.

35:38

Well, you actually have a live issue before you, so

35:40

the where to start is not too complicated

35:42

because you're asking us, how can we help set limits

35:45

with your parents? Before your parents, we are

35:47

interested in how you can approach

35:49

this as a unit, not just

35:51

you, and by stuffing it down? What

35:53

would it be like to talk to him about your

35:56

feelings about what's going on with

35:58

your parents and the pressures in the wedding

36:00

and how court you feel?

36:02

Might be nice to

36:04

get out of my head. I think it

36:07

would be nice to feel hurt and

36:09

understood.

36:10

A minute ago, you said I

36:12

don't let my parents ask about

36:15

my life. Are they making an effort

36:17

at this point in your life to understand,

36:20

not to tell you how they feel, but

36:22

to understand how you feel.

36:25

I don't get asked,

36:28

well, how do you feel about this situation?

36:32

I get told how they feel

36:35

about that situation and how

36:37

I should feel about

36:39

that situation. But I don't get asked

36:41

my feelings

36:44

or thoughts on those

36:46

situations.

36:47

So how are they telling you that you

36:49

should feel about

36:52

the status of your relationship with your

36:54

boyfriend.

36:54

I should be pressuring him

36:57

more to get engaged

36:59

and to get married, to start a family.

37:01

I should want to already

37:03

have a baby, and like,

37:06

it's very clear, why haven't you had

37:08

a baby yet? And I would say

37:10

something like, well, right now, I'm focusing

37:12

on my career. I have only been in my career for

37:15

two years now, and I spent a really

37:17

long time studying to get

37:19

here. And I want to settle into my home

37:21

and settle into my life before

37:23

I take on more responsibilities.

37:26

And I don't feel quite adult

37:29

enough to be a mum

37:31

yet, And I

37:34

just get told, well, you're not getting

37:36

any younger. The clock is ticking, and I

37:39

want to be a grandparent.

37:40

I'm wondering if you have a sense,

37:43

since you tend to focus on other people's feelings,

37:46

what is their fear that you're going to

37:48

have spent ten years with your boyfriend and

37:50

the two of you are not going to end up together, That

37:52

you're going to be too old to have a child. What

37:55

is their fear exactly?

37:57

It's keeping face. It is

37:59

what will people think about

38:02

this situation? And that has been

38:04

something our whole lives,

38:06

particularly on my dad's side. There's just

38:09

this expectation you should get

38:11

married and you should have children. And I'm sinning

38:13

in a way because you know,

38:15

God says that you should do this and that.

38:18

And then the other part is

38:20

that there's just this cultural

38:22

expectation. And so I'm almost damaged

38:25

goods because I'm getting older and I don't have

38:27

all of the things that this culture says,

38:30

Hey, women should be married

38:32

and women should have children. But it's also

38:35

so confusing to me now

38:37

that my dad says these

38:39

things to me, because my whole life,

38:42

up until I was like

38:44

twenty five, twenty six, so this is

38:46

only now two years different, he

38:48

had said nothing about

38:51

these expectations. He had said

38:53

things like you have to study,

38:55

and you have to get a good job, and you have

38:58

to focus on your career. And then

39:00

once I got to the career, I

39:02

got all of these different messages and it

39:04

was so confusing to me.

39:06

Can I ask what culture you're

39:08

talking about when you say cultural expectations?

39:12

My dad is Greek, so I

39:14

should have been married ten years ago, essentially

39:17

eighteen twenty, which was funny

39:20

because when I was twenty three, he would say,

39:22

oh, no, she doesn't need to get married yet.

39:24

She's so young, she has time, and then you

39:27

know, in a couple of years after that, it's all you're too

39:29

old. You don't have time with

39:31

your dad.

39:32

It would be great to have a conversation

39:35

with him in which you

39:37

bring your own perspective. You tell

39:39

him how you feel about things,

39:41

what's important to you, so

39:43

he understands your perspective

39:47

separate from his own.

39:49

I feel like I've tried in

39:52

times when he's said

39:54

these comments. He never says them like

39:57

as in, let's sit down and let's talk. I

39:59

could be sitting down on the couch watching

40:01

TV and he might just

40:03

turn to me. I don't know what to say. I

40:06

have to say something to you because I love you,

40:08

but I don't want you to get angry. So

40:11

let's say he says to me, you know

40:13

I want to be a grandfather. I might

40:15

say, well, my brother's

40:17

married, so he'll have a baby soon.

40:19

They're talking about that, but

40:22

I think you should have a baby.

40:24

You're running out of time, and I might

40:26

say, well, I don't want a baby right now,

40:29

and then that is met with him

40:31

going into this angry mode.

40:33

It's almost like a tar trimming child. And

40:35

I've said it to my mom, Why does he go into

40:37

this child tantrum? But my

40:40

mom does not stand

40:43

up to my dad because it then would

40:45

make her life difficult.

40:48

So my mom will agree with my dad

40:50

in front of my dad to appease

40:52

my dad. But when it's me and

40:54

my mom, she just says, don't worry about

40:56

it. I don't care if you get married. I don't care if you

40:58

have children. You do what you want. That's

41:01

up to you and your boyfriend.

41:02

But alex As, I was asking you about whether you

41:05

were able to share with your father your perspective

41:07

and you were able to respond to his But is

41:09

there appointed what you say to him. I understand

41:12

your concerns that. Here's my thinking about

41:14

it. The way I'm thinking, I spent all

41:16

this time getting ready for this career. I

41:18

do want a little bit more of it. I am still

41:20

in my twenties, so the ticking clock is not

41:22

taking too loudly for me. And here's

41:24

what I'm thinking. Do you explain that to

41:27

him.

41:28

We have had these conversations, but

41:30

his view is that you're

41:33

just saying that because that's what your boyfriend

41:35

wants. But I haven't really

41:37

tried to sit down outside

41:41

of when we've already both been heeded

41:44

and try and have a

41:46

conversation where I say, I understand

41:49

what you're saying, and I know that you want

41:52

the best for me, but this

41:54

is what I would also black

41:58

for me.

41:59

I find it interesting

42:01

that you and your mom have so

42:03

much in common, so you're

42:06

smiling.

42:07

I haven't thought about it that way.

42:09

Well, let's think about it for a second.

42:12

I'm thinking about how your mom

42:15

just puts her own feelings

42:17

aside in order to make

42:19

sure that your dad doesn't get upset.

42:22

Yeah, and so she has her own thoughts about

42:24

this, which is she's not particularly worried about

42:26

what you and your boyfriend are doing. She wants you to

42:29

figure that out with your boyfriend as

42:31

is appropriate.

42:32

She just wants us to be happy.

42:35

Yes, yes, And she

42:37

also wants your dad to be happy, and

42:39

she's not really thinking about

42:42

how she can share her feelings

42:44

with him. She supports him in those moments

42:47

when he's pressuring you instead

42:50

of saying, hey, you know what, I think something

42:52

different because that would agitate

42:54

him. You do the same thing,

42:57

you know. I have to make sure that everybody around

42:59

me is okay and my

43:01

feelings all keep to myself.

43:03

Yeah. We are very similar like that actually,

43:06

And it's funny because I assume my mom

43:08

can't comfort

43:11

me. I just don't let her

43:14

do that now as

43:17

I think about it now, she does

43:19

it for everyone else, so there is no

43:21

reason that I couldn't also

43:24

share with her.

43:25

And she also does comfort

43:27

you in a way by saying, listen, I just

43:30

want you to be happy. I'm not putting that pressure

43:32

on you. But I think that part

43:35

of supporting you might

43:38

create some work for her, which is that she

43:40

needs to be able to express her feelings

43:44

in front of your dad as well.

43:46

Yeah.

43:46

How are your boyfriend's parents

43:49

giving the two of you space to figure things

43:51

out on your own.

43:52

They're totally fine.

43:55

They've never said anything to me, and

43:57

my boyfriend hasn't said that they've ever said

43:59

anything to him.

44:01

When your parents push you to put pressure

44:04

on your boyfriend, you said that that's created

44:07

some conflict with your boyfriend. What

44:09

are those conversations look like between you and

44:11

your boyfriend?

44:12

It looks like me taking

44:16

all of that in and this seed

44:19

going into my head and

44:22

ruminating and festering, and then by

44:24

the time I see him,

44:27

I just go into

44:29

this angry mode. I just say,

44:32

you know, my dad said this,

44:34

and my dad said that, and he just says, like,

44:36

I don't understand where this is coming from. It's

44:38

like, I just get so anxious

44:42

that I'm disappointing my dad

44:44

that I ignore any conversations

44:47

that my boyfriend and I have had and I just

44:49

stomp in there and I'm almost

44:52

like tantruming myself. But I'm

44:55

also quite happy with

44:58

where things are, and I lack that

45:00

we're on our own timeline because

45:02

I was so focused

45:04

on studying for a very

45:06

very very long time that I

45:09

feel that it's only the past few years

45:11

when I've been working that we've been able

45:13

to solidify a more

45:16

healthy adult relationship

45:18

where we spend good

45:20

quality time together and we

45:23

enjoy each other. Versus

45:25

me being stressed and overwhelmed and

45:28

studying all hours and working

45:30

three jobs. I get to just work

45:32

one job with normal hours,

45:35

and I want more of that. So

45:38

it's so strange to me that I get

45:40

so angry when my dad

45:42

says these things, and I stomp over to him and I

45:44

just yell at him. I just want to just get it

45:46

all out because I don't say it

45:48

to my dad, and he's becomes my

45:51

boxing bag if in a way, which is

45:53

had?

45:54

Are you even clear enough about the

45:56

distinctions of who you're angry at

45:58

in those.

45:59

Moments, I'm just angry that,

46:02

like my dad doesn't listen.

46:05

I'm now at a point

46:08

where i get anxious

46:11

being alone with

46:14

my dad because I'm scared

46:16

that one of these comments

46:20

will come out of nowhere, and then

46:23

that puts me in a bad

46:26

mood for the rest of the day.

46:28

What would happen if you got angry with your

46:30

dad in those moments?

46:31

He gets angry back. And

46:34

when he gets angry back, he can

46:37

He can be quite nasty. He

46:39

can pull out the book of Oh he's

46:42

anything that I can say to that might make you

46:44

feel bad, like what he could

46:47

say almost anything. Sometimes he will

46:49

use financial support

46:51

as a way of shutting

46:54

you down. So you know what, I paid

46:57

for all of your studies, so you do what

46:59

I say most on my timeline. When I say

47:01

you do it, I've kept a roof

47:03

over your head. Or he

47:06

would even say something like, well, why don't

47:08

you just go live with your stupid boyfriend

47:10

then?

47:11

And if you said to him in those moments that

47:14

it is my plan, we just disagree about

47:16

the timeline.

47:17

I've said something like and

47:20

when I leave, you'll be very sad and

47:23

you'll see when I leave.

47:25

Do you live with your parents?

47:26

I do, because we're building our house, so my

47:28

partner doesn't live with them, but I do

47:31

live with my parents. But also that's

47:33

another cultural thing as well, because

47:36

the expectation was you don't move out until

47:38

you're married. I used to think the rules

47:41

applied to all of

47:43

us siblings. But

47:45

when my brother built his house with his

47:48

girlfriend at the time now wife,

47:52

it was all happy days and

47:54

it was good and it was okay. And

47:57

my youngest brother his girlfriend actually

47:59

live at our house and

48:02

they've been together eight months.

48:06

So it feels more

48:08

now that the rules apply

48:11

to me. And that's

48:14

also, though, been the expectation

48:16

that I've had growing up.

48:18

I had to go to UNI, I had to do

48:20

this. My brothers didn't have

48:23

to do any of that. They could be what they

48:25

wanted on their timelines.

48:27

Given the tension at home. Was

48:30

there ever a consideration of

48:33

moving in with your boyfriend where he lives now.

48:35

I would love to. He lives on his

48:38

parents' property in a little

48:41

one bedroom, so even

48:44

if I would

48:46

love to, it just fits his

48:48

minimal belongings, and I'm okay with that.

48:51

More recently, especially since my brother

48:54

got married, I feel the pressure more,

48:56

which means I avoid

48:59

coming home a lot now,

49:01

so I'll work more, or I

49:04

just won't say where I am so

49:06

I can pretend that I'm at work so that I

49:08

can have some breathing space before

49:11

I get home, because

49:14

it's so unpredictable that

49:17

I'm now going into. Well, this

49:19

house couldn't be built quick enough, but it's

49:22

still just dirt on the floor right

49:24

now, so I have to also be patient.

49:26

Is there a possibility of you getting

49:29

your own place while the house is being

49:31

built, or you and your boyfriend moving to a

49:33

place together temporarily while

49:36

the house is being built.

49:38

My cousin has actually said,

49:40

you know, you can live here sometimes because he

49:42

knows that sometimes things get difficult

49:45

at home. But I don't want to

49:47

do that. I don't know why.

49:48

Let's look at that for a minute. This house might take

49:51

a couple of years if it's just dirt right now.

49:53

What is preventing you from saying, I might

49:55

have more peace if

49:58

I'm not in this environment all the time.

50:00

What is preventing you and your boyfriend from

50:03

getting a place together for the next couple

50:06

of years while you wait for the house.

50:08

For the first part, I also

50:11

do like spending time with my mom and

50:13

dad when my dad isn't down my neck. I

50:15

do a lot with my mom and dad, and I

50:18

have always very much enjoyed it.

50:20

What do you do with them?

50:21

We go on holidays together.

50:23

So over Christmas, you

50:25

know, I'd spent three weeks at the holiday

50:28

house with my parents, and my partner

50:31

came as he could because he was working.

50:33

We go for drives, we do stuff

50:36

around the house together, and I enjoy that.

50:38

If they don't try and tell me what they want

50:40

or what to do.

50:42

You keep saying they, but it

50:44

seems like it's your dad.

50:45

It feels like they because

50:47

my mom is often there

50:51

as an observer to this,

50:53

so it makes me feel like they. But you're right,

50:56

it's my dad. Because when my mom is just

50:58

home, I don't have this anxious

51:00

feeling to be alone and to just enjoy

51:03

time together. So sometimes in my head

51:06

it's like, Okay, what's

51:08

happened today? Is there anything that I

51:10

can predict that could come up? No? Okay,

51:12

great, it's probably going to be a good

51:14

day.

51:16

I hear that you can have good times with

51:18

your parents, but I don't

51:20

think you're fully in touch with how distressing

51:23

it is on a daily

51:26

basis to not feel safe emotionally

51:29

in your home, to not feel

51:32

like you can just sit and watch

51:34

television without your dad turning to you

51:36

and going so you know the

51:38

clock's ticking and any of those things,

51:40

and knowing that if you respond, he's going to get

51:42

angry, and then if you get angry, he'll get angrier.

51:45

And I'm not sure you're fully in touch

51:48

with how oppressive that

51:51

is and how stressful.

51:53

Yeah, I'm not. You're right. I

51:56

make myself very busy so that I don't

51:58

have to worry about that until I'm

52:00

in the moment.

52:01

Almost in your own thinking.

52:04

What is the life circumstance or the

52:07

age or the point at which

52:09

you just you get to prioritize

52:12

your feelings over your

52:15

dad's. Your dad prioritizes his

52:17

own feelings over yours. When do you

52:19

feel ready? What needs

52:21

to happen for you? To feel you know what, he'll

52:24

advocate for his My feelings

52:26

are more important. I'm not squashing

52:28

mine just to please him anymore.

52:31

To be honest, I'd like to do it

52:34

like now, which is why I'm

52:36

reaching out, because I'm tired of feeling

52:39

this way, and I would like to

52:42

hope that my dad

52:44

cares and loves me enough that he will

52:47

listen if I can find the way

52:49

to talk to him about how I'm

52:51

feeling and work

52:54

together. I don't think it'll be a simple

52:56

conversation and it will all magically

52:58

change. But if I'm being brave, I would like to say

53:00

now.

53:01

It won't be a simple conversation. It won't

53:03

even be a single conversation.

53:06

You asked about setting boundaries. They have

53:09

two steps for setting boundaries. You've set

53:11

them, and then the maintenance is a difficult

53:13

one. So you have to be ready for

53:16

an ongoing campaign,

53:18

not just a one time hold my breath and get

53:20

through it. Yeah, are you ready?

53:23

Yeah? If it was at the start of this conversation,

53:25

I probably would have said I want to do it

53:27

when I don't live at the house anymore, because

53:29

I can have space and clarity.

53:32

But to be honest,

53:35

I don't want to wait a

53:37

year until I start doing

53:39

that, because I

53:42

want to come home and feel calm

53:44

and enjoy the time

53:46

that I also get to have

53:49

staying at home with my parents. Before

53:52

you know, I don't see them as regularly and

53:54

life just changes.

53:56

Part of it, Alexis, is the

53:59

way that this pressure is

54:01

unpredictable. You never know when

54:03

it's going to happen, and you don't know how to respond

54:06

to it. The other part of it, though,

54:08

is that you were talking at the beginning of

54:11

the terror that you have around

54:14

both sets of parents being

54:16

together, and I don't

54:18

think these are two unrelated things. It's

54:22

the same terror that you have. I never

54:24

know what's going to happen when I'm sitting on the couch

54:26

watching TV with my dad, and I never know

54:28

what's going to happen if our parents run into each other.

54:30

And it's also funny because

54:33

I don't know if I'm giving any of the

54:35

four of them any credit

54:38

here, because I

54:41

wonder if some of the terror isn't

54:43

valid anymore now that

54:45

we've been together for so long

54:48

and they know that we're serious

54:50

and they know how much we love each other.

54:52

Has your boyfriend ever said, Hey, it would be really

54:54

nice if we could get our parents in

54:57

the same room. No is he afraid Also.

55:00

I don't even know if that's because it's about him

55:02

or because he knows how

55:05

anxious it makes me, so

55:07

he just doesn't bring it up.

55:09

So he does a lot of protecting of you,

55:12

knowing that conversations are

55:15

a challenge for you.

55:16

Yeah.

55:17

Yeah, And I wonder when

55:20

you think about the future together, what

55:22

would a different future look

55:24

like in terms of communication. You said you're ready

55:26

to start now doing

55:28

something different with your dad. What about

55:31

doing something different with

55:33

your boyfriend so that the

55:35

rules are not he

55:37

takes care of you any kind of silently

55:40

into it's what you need, but

55:42

you're able to participate

55:44

in that conversation.

55:46

I think I would really like that. I think the

55:49

more that we've been talking today, I've

55:51

also realized that I

55:53

think he stops sharing sometimes with

55:55

me because he doesn't want me

55:57

to feel upset. I

55:59

would love if he felt comfortable

56:02

enough that I wouldn't respond

56:05

in a way that made him feel shut down either.

56:08

I think it would just feel really nice to

56:10

be able to walk in and say, hey,

56:13

this is how I'm feeling. It would help me feel

56:15

more like an adult in my relationship

56:19

than this sort of teenager that I sometimes

56:21

still feel like in that relationship because

56:24

I just I just avoid and avoid and avoid.

56:26

It's very difficult to feel like an adult when

56:28

you're living in the same room that you grew

56:30

up in with the same people who treat you

56:32

in the same way.

56:34

Yes, and look, I think

56:36

we haven't had the conversation why don't

56:38

we just rent somewhere for a little

56:40

while until the house is built. I kind of think

56:42

I would like to put that money onto the

56:44

mortgage more because but

56:47

then when I think about it, Sorry, I'm smiling

56:50

because I have this voice

56:52

in my head that's my duds, that would say renting

56:55

is wasting money. So as

56:57

I say that, I realized that it's also not my

56:59

own thought process there,

57:02

right.

57:02

And we want to help you understand what

57:04

your thoughts are that are separate from other people's

57:07

and then how to communicate them.

57:09

Yeah, it would be maybe nice in

57:11

some ways to move out and rent

57:14

together and do that now. But

57:16

I wonder if maybe I could stay at

57:18

his house more and just take a big overnight

57:21

bag with me for a few days

57:23

and not have to go home and come back

57:25

to his house and home and back to his house, I could,

57:28

you know, situate myself there a

57:30

little bit more so that we could

57:33

do more things like cook dinner together more.

57:35

Because it's funny. He has said

57:38

things to me like, it's when you

57:40

want to we do this

57:42

when it feels convenient for you,

57:45

and that hurts. But the

57:47

way I do things probably does

57:50

send that message.

57:51

And everything that you just said is

57:55

illustrating how an adult thinks.

57:57

Now you're problem solving. Now you're trying

58:00

to understand more about what it would look

58:02

like to be your own person and

58:04

stay connected to your family. Yeah,

58:06

how can you do both? And do you see

58:09

how in just those few

58:11

minutes you went into your adult

58:13

space and you said, yeah, I do

58:15

have more flexibility around this. This might

58:18

be healthier for my relationship. This

58:20

is a way I could stay connected to my family

58:22

and also move into this new phase.

58:25

Yeah, rather than how

58:27

do I please my family? Be home, eat

58:29

with the family, then leave, then go to

58:31

you know, and wonder why I'm so

58:33

tired all the time because

58:35

I'm trying my best to please everyone,

58:38

and yet I'm not only not pleasing

58:41

all of them, I'm also not

58:44

looking after me.

58:50

So alexis we have some advice for you,

58:53

and probably not surprisingly, we would

58:55

like you to talk with your dad and

58:59

we would like you to say to him, Dad,

59:01

I love you so much and our

59:04

relationship is really important to

59:06

me. But when you bring up

59:09

these questions about what's happening

59:11

between me and my boyfriend, I

59:14

actually dread coming home.

59:16

I wonder if we're going to have the good time

59:18

that we usually have, or if something's going

59:21

to come up that's really going to put

59:23

me in a bad mood. And I don't

59:25

want to dread being around you. I'm

59:28

an adult now and my

59:31

boyfriend and I have a timeline

59:33

that works for us and we're both really

59:35

happy with it. And so Dad, I'm asking

59:38

that you not bring this

59:40

up anymore. If there's a change to the

59:42

timeline, I will let you know. But

59:45

nothing you say in the meantime is going to change

59:47

the timeline, and it's only going to

59:49

make me dread being around you,

59:52

and I don't want that to happen. So

59:55

if you do bring it up, I'm going to ask

59:57

you to let it go or I'm going

59:59

to the room. And

1:00:02

I'm doing this so that we can enjoy

1:00:04

our time together.

1:00:06

And so remember there that's the limit

1:00:08

setting conversation phase one, and

1:00:10

then the phase two is the maintenance

1:00:13

of the boundary. And the good

1:00:15

thing about doing what

1:00:17

we suggested in phase one is that you can

1:00:19

shorthand phase two communications.

1:00:22

You don't have to start explaining the whole thing over again.

1:00:24

The minute he starts me saying, so look

1:00:27

about the wedding, you said to him, Dad, please

1:00:29

to remind you, I really don't feel like leaving the room

1:00:31

right now, so could you please drop

1:00:34

it? He keeps going, Okay, you know what, I'll

1:00:36

come back later, because I really asked.

1:00:38

I don't want to have this conversation. And if you

1:00:40

go very nicely, very respectfully,

1:00:43

even you start standing up and go Dad, can we let

1:00:45

it go? You just telegraph and

1:00:47

remind him of the intent.

1:00:50

And the thing that guy said about doing it

1:00:52

very nicely and calmly is that you're doing it from

1:00:54

the adult place now and not

1:00:57

from that teenager place. This is all about

1:00:59

transitioning you in to adulthood, so

1:01:01

that being an adult means staying connected

1:01:03

to your family, but also being

1:01:05

yourself. How can you navigate

1:01:08

those boundaries.

1:01:10

And in this case knowing not just

1:01:12

what's better for you, but what's better for

1:01:14

your relationship with him than he does, so

1:01:17

that really has to company the place of the adult. Yeah,

1:01:20

all right, Task number two conversation

1:01:24

with boyfriend. We want you to say

1:01:26

to him, I really appreciate

1:01:29

how well you

1:01:32

see me and you get

1:01:34

me, and you care for me, and

1:01:37

you do it so sensitively.

1:01:39

And I'm not sure I've told you how

1:01:42

wonderful that feels. And

1:01:45

it happens at times of distress, so it

1:01:47

might not look like it feels wonderful

1:01:49

because I'm going through a difficult time, but I

1:01:51

so appreciate it that I'm

1:01:53

not sure I've told you how

1:01:55

much I really value it, because

1:01:59

I'm not great talking about

1:02:01

my feelings and that's something

1:02:04

I'm really trying to work on. But

1:02:06

that's probably made you hesitant to

1:02:09

talk about yours, and I want

1:02:11

you to be able to talk about yours, and

1:02:13

I want to keep working to talk more

1:02:16

openly about mine. So

1:02:18

I wanted to let you know those are conversations

1:02:20

I would like us to have, and

1:02:23

one of the ways I want us to have that conversation

1:02:25

is to talk about things like the

1:02:27

following. I know we have

1:02:29

our life plan, but I

1:02:31

would love to start our life together

1:02:34

a little sooner. Construction can take

1:02:37

a long time, and

1:02:39

I want us to talk together about what

1:02:42

we can do to spend more nights

1:02:44

together. Maybe I have an overnight

1:02:46

bag at your place, Maybe

1:02:49

we can both spend time at my cousin's place,

1:02:52

just so we can kind of start our lives

1:02:54

and not feel like we have to wait for the construction

1:02:57

to be completed. You're not mentioning marriage.

1:02:59

This is just kind of being together.

1:03:02

But I would love to know how

1:03:04

you feel about that. And

1:03:07

then you toss it to him

1:03:09

and he's going to be hesitant. I mean, you're saying I want

1:03:11

to hear how you feel, but he's used to dancing

1:03:13

around. So catch him and go like,

1:03:16

okay, but tell me really how

1:03:18

you feel about that. I really want to have that

1:03:21

discussion.

1:03:22

And his telling you how he feels isn't just

1:03:24

yeah, that's a good idea. No that's not a

1:03:26

good idea. But the why

1:03:30

So if he says, you

1:03:32

know, I don't really think I'm ready to do

1:03:34

that yet, you don't just leave

1:03:36

it there. So it's about

1:03:38

what comes up for you around this, What

1:03:41

are you worried about? You

1:03:43

can tell me I can handle it right,

1:03:47

and then you tell him how you feel, and you might

1:03:49

have feelings about whatever he says,

1:03:52

and you can say and let me tell you how

1:03:55

I feel about the fact

1:03:57

that you're not ready to do this or

1:04:00

is let me tell you how happy I am to hear

1:04:03

that you are ready to do this. And

1:04:05

let me also tell you that I'm scared

1:04:07

a little bit because I'm very connected to my

1:04:09

family, so this is a big step for me and

1:04:13

I'm excited to do this, and

1:04:15

it's also going to be a big change for me. You

1:04:17

can share all kinds of feelings. They can be happy

1:04:20

feelings, they can be worried

1:04:22

feelings, ambivalence, whatever it is,

1:04:25

but just being able to be open with each other

1:04:27

and have a true conversation, not just logistically,

1:04:29

but how do we both feel about potentially

1:04:33

taking these steps and doing it now while

1:04:35

we're waiting for the big plan, which

1:04:37

is we're going to move into this house that we're building together.

1:04:39

Yeah, I'm excited to have that

1:04:42

conversation.

1:04:43

And then the last piece of advice

1:04:45

we have for you is you said

1:04:47

that actually the parents seem to be

1:04:50

quite civil to each other from what you've heard,

1:04:53

but we don't want you to have that feeling at your wedding

1:04:55

of what's going to happen. We don't want that to be the very

1:04:57

first time that all the parents are in the room

1:04:59

together. So we would like you and

1:05:01

your boyfriend together to plan

1:05:04

a very casual gathering,

1:05:07

not just with both sets of parents, but

1:05:09

there will be other people there as well. Maybe you have

1:05:11

a big family, maybe friends, and something

1:05:14

very casual. Maybe it's a barbecue, something

1:05:16

outside where people can escape, whatever

1:05:19

it needs to be. But it's not like

1:05:21

and now we're going to put you together. It's

1:05:23

just, hey, we're having this gathering and you're doing what

1:05:25

most couples do, which is we're inviting our

1:05:28

family, and so it

1:05:31

makes sense that both parents would be invited

1:05:33

to this, and you're not going to make a big

1:05:35

deal and you're not going to have conversations with people

1:05:37

about it beforehand. It's just let's

1:05:39

see how this goes. And

1:05:42

so then if it doesn't go well, you

1:05:45

have some runway there, you have

1:05:47

some space to talk about you and your boyfriend

1:05:49

together so that it's not all on you

1:05:51

and you have to problem solve the whole thing. But

1:05:53

you can say, oh, wow, did you see this happened?

1:05:56

How do we manage this, let's

1:05:58

come up with some ideas together, or

1:06:00

maybe it goes really well and everybody's very civil,

1:06:03

and then you don't have to feel that sense

1:06:05

of dread going into any kind

1:06:07

of family occasion that might come up,

1:06:10

including your wedding here.

1:06:12

Yeah, so how does all that

1:06:14

sound.

1:06:16

I'm probably most excited

1:06:18

to have the conversation with my partner, like almost

1:06:20

like, ah, I wish he was awake. I

1:06:22

could go and have that

1:06:24

conversation with him. Now. I am

1:06:26

nervous about talking to my dad, not

1:06:28

even about the gathering. I think it's the

1:06:31

talking to my dad that feels

1:06:33

very foreign to me. That

1:06:35

is my most nerve wracking

1:06:38

conversation, but the

1:06:40

most important one. I think that

1:06:43

means to happen as well.

1:06:44

And the bar for success has

1:06:47

nothing to do with his response, only

1:06:50

with what you put forth. If you put

1:06:52

forth your truth, success

1:06:55

regardless of how he responds.

1:06:57

Yeah. Yeah.

1:06:58

For example, Let's say that he

1:07:00

says, well, I'm going to keep bringing it up.

1:07:02

I'm your father, and I'm not going to be told what I

1:07:04

can bring up and what I can't bring up. You

1:07:07

can say, okay, Dad,

1:07:10

then I will be coming home with a sense of dread,

1:07:13

and if you do bring it up, I

1:07:16

will ask you to let it go, or I will

1:07:18

leave the room because I'm not going to engage in

1:07:20

that conversation. Yeah,

1:07:23

you're going to need to take a lot of breaths and

1:07:26

get back into the adult space

1:07:28

and not go into that automatic place

1:07:31

that we tend to go when we get triggered

1:07:33

by our parents, which is you go back

1:07:35

into that helpless childhood place.

1:07:37

We think you're very ready for the adulthood. You

1:07:39

just have to grab it.

1:07:40

Thank you very much for that.

1:07:42

Oh, you're very welcome, and we look

1:07:44

forward to hearing how all of these things go this

1:07:46

week.

1:07:47

Thank you.

1:07:53

What was interesting to me about that session

1:07:56

was how raw things were

1:07:59

for a lie exis. On the one hand,

1:08:01

how little practice she's

1:08:03

had talking about her feelings,

1:08:06

yet how ready she seemed to

1:08:08

do it on the other.

1:08:09

Yeah, there was a moment in the session when she said,

1:08:12

if you had asked me this at the beginning of the session,

1:08:15

I don't think I would have been ready to do that, but

1:08:17

I am now right, And I think

1:08:19

that'spoke most of something she said at the end about

1:08:22

she said, I'm really tired. It's really

1:08:24

exhausting to feel like you have

1:08:26

to hold your feelings, you have to take care of

1:08:28

everyone else. She's done it her whole

1:08:30

life, so I think that she's kind

1:08:32

of ready, like a butterfly, ready to emerge.

1:08:35

I agree, And I think it was the fact that she was able

1:08:37

to be so open with us

1:08:39

and so vulnerable. She cried and she was

1:08:41

teary, and the world did an end and

1:08:44

everything was okay, and we actually were more interested

1:08:46

in how she felt. I think that was also a

1:08:48

great illustration for her about

1:08:51

how it can feel to open up and

1:08:53

be supported.

1:08:54

And I like that she's going to be doing something

1:08:56

with her dad that she's not used to doing. We're

1:08:59

pretty much predicting that he's not going to take well

1:09:01

to this conversation. So it's

1:09:03

really about her saying, let

1:09:06

me ask myself, how do I

1:09:08

feel in this moment. There were so many times

1:09:10

in the conversation where she said, I'm not sure if this

1:09:12

is my voice or this is one

1:09:14

of my parents' voices.

1:09:16

Right. That's why it doesn't matter how it goes

1:09:18

on his end. Her doing it despite

1:09:21

that fear, because that's what's right for

1:09:23

her. I think is going to be

1:09:26

really meaningful to her and hopefully

1:09:28

set her on the right path. You're

1:09:34

listening to deotherapists. We'll be back

1:09:36

after a short break. So,

1:09:50

Laurie, we heard from Alexis and we gave

1:09:52

her a few conversations to have before

1:09:54

we get to them. A note to our listeners, Alexis

1:09:57

is taping this late at night, and so

1:09:59

she's whispering for that reason. She doesn't want to wake

1:10:01

people up. Let's hear how she did.

1:10:03

Hi guy, Hi Laurie. Just

1:10:06

checking in about some of the homework

1:10:08

that you guys gave me. So

1:10:11

the first task that

1:10:13

you gave me was around

1:10:17

a conversation with my

1:10:19

dad. It

1:10:22

took me a couple of days to work

1:10:24

up the courage and figure out how

1:10:26

to have this conversation with

1:10:29

him, but that was a really great opportunity

1:10:31

when we were alone together in

1:10:34

the car. I was really anxious to have

1:10:36

this. But he didn't

1:10:39

get angry, we didn't have

1:10:41

a fight.

1:10:43

It was him being a little bit rigid,

1:10:46

saying that he just wants the best for me and

1:10:49

he wants me to be happy. So I really just

1:10:51

had to highlight that I

1:10:53

am really happy and

1:10:56

I am happy with my timeline and

1:11:00

things are going the

1:11:02

way that I and

1:11:04

my boyfriend would like them to, and

1:11:06

that just because that doesn't match up with his

1:11:09

timeline, that's

1:11:11

okay. He shoult have stopped the conversation

1:11:14

there, and things have been good.

1:11:16

I've been a little bit less

1:11:20

worried about coming home. I am

1:11:22

still, however, a

1:11:24

little bit worried that

1:11:26

this is going to come up again. Sometimes he

1:11:29

has these patterns where things will

1:11:31

go okay for a little bit. But I'm really

1:11:33

much more confident him

1:11:35

revisiting this conversation now, knowing

1:11:38

how it went and with

1:11:40

the advice that he had given me. The

1:11:43

second conversation was

1:11:45

with my boyfriend. I

1:11:47

did this one much quicker, and I

1:11:49

really focused on how

1:11:52

much I value how

1:11:54

he's there for me. In fact,

1:11:57

I opened up quite a bit more following

1:12:00

that conversation, and he

1:12:03

then opened up with me about

1:12:05

how he's been feeling just with

1:12:08

life and his new job, and

1:12:11

it was really really nice. I felt

1:12:14

much more connected in that moment. We

1:12:17

did have a discussion about spending more

1:12:19

time together and what that would look like. We have

1:12:22

decided that I will stay there at

1:12:24

his house more frequently

1:12:27

and for longer periods of time. So we're

1:12:29

really excited about this. And

1:12:32

we're really looking forward to what

1:12:35

that looks like. The last

1:12:37

piece of advice was to talk

1:12:40

to my boyfriend and that we could both organize

1:12:43

together catch up for our parents.

1:12:46

Just to me in a very casual setting. This

1:12:49

is something that we haven't done yet. It's

1:12:51

just we both have lots on our

1:12:54

schedules in the coming month,

1:12:57

but we are really trying to find a

1:12:59

time that we know will work really well for both

1:13:01

our families. And whilst

1:13:03

I am a bit anxious about that, I feel

1:13:05

much more supported doing this with

1:13:07

my partner. So I just wanted to thank you guys

1:13:09

again.

1:13:15

It sounded like Alexis did

1:13:17

really well. I think that the conversation

1:13:19

with her father she was really

1:13:21

uncomfortable, but she did very well

1:13:24

in saying her piece and explaining

1:13:26

it and not prolonging the conversation.

1:13:28

The one comment I would have is you said, if

1:13:30

it comes up again, it will come up

1:13:33

again, and you don't need to have the whole conversation

1:13:35

all over again. When it does, you just remind him

1:13:37

Dad, we spoke about that. Remember

1:13:39

I'm doing it on my own timeline, and

1:13:41

then you leave it again.

1:13:43

I do think she did a good job. I know this was a

1:13:45

really hard conversation for her to have. I

1:13:47

did not hear her setting the

1:13:49

boundary though, and I think that she

1:13:52

needs to go back to our advice

1:13:54

and listen to how we explain to her how

1:13:57

the boundary setting sounds, because

1:14:01

I don't think she said to him, if

1:14:03

it comes up again, I will leave the conversation.

1:14:06

And then she needs to actually leave the room

1:14:08

and the conversation in a very warm,

1:14:10

friendly way. But she needs to do that

1:14:12

consistently because if she doesn't do that

1:14:15

consistently, he might just keep

1:14:17

bringing it up.

1:14:18

Correct and so I think when he does the next time, which

1:14:20

she willed, then you say to him, Dan, remember we spoke

1:14:22

about this and then Alexis said

1:14:25

the boundary. Say so, I don't want to

1:14:27

talk about it again, and if you keep

1:14:29

bringing it up, I'm just going to end the conversation

1:14:31

and leave the room. Just be very explicit in

1:14:33

the kindest way. That is just unpleasant

1:14:35

for me. It stresses me out. This

1:14:37

is what I have to do.

1:14:38

And I like that she said it was easy

1:14:40

to go to her boyfriend and have that conversation.

1:14:42

It shows that they have a lot of connection, a

1:14:45

lot of trust with each other. It

1:14:47

was so nice to hear that when she opened

1:14:49

up to him, he opened up so much to her,

1:14:52

and it made them feel so much more connected,

1:14:55

and that they both want to spend more time

1:14:57

together and that she will be spending more time

1:15:00

his house.

1:15:00

I think they need that, and I really got

1:15:02

the sense that having that conversation made

1:15:04

them feel more unified, and

1:15:07

that was also why we wanted them

1:15:09

to throw this family event. I also think that

1:15:12

planning this family event together will

1:15:14

continue to unify you and

1:15:16

define you in your eyes and especially

1:15:19

in your family's eyes, as a

1:15:21

unit as a couple.

1:15:23

Alexi said they didn't have time for a get

1:15:25

together where the parents would both be there,

1:15:27

and I know that they're busy, but

1:15:30

I also think it's really important that they prioritize

1:15:33

that.

1:15:33

Absolutely, and even in the planning, there

1:15:36

is an intervention there, because it's sufficient

1:15:38

that you put both parents on an

1:15:40

email together and say, we would like to invite

1:15:43

you to a blah blah blah, whatever you choose

1:15:45

to do. Let's look at our calendars

1:15:47

and try and find dates. So even before it

1:15:49

happens, the intention is there. So

1:15:52

alexis we are encouraging you strongly

1:15:55

to not wait months, but to start the planning and

1:15:57

the communicating with the two sets of parents

1:15:59

about this right now, because we

1:16:01

really think that you and your boyfriend

1:16:04

make a good team and this is something you should

1:16:06

approach as a team.

1:16:10

Next week, a mother and daughter who've

1:16:12

been emotionally distant for the past twenty five

1:16:14

years try to heal the wounds of the

1:16:16

past.

1:16:17

From the moment she said

1:16:20

she didn't want us to be involved

1:16:22

in the adoption process, I felt

1:16:25

that Stephanie was rejecting me, and

1:16:27

as things have gone on for the past years,

1:16:29

I felt like she doesn't approve of

1:16:32

me, and so I've just distanced myself.

1:16:34

If you're enjoying our podcast, don't forget

1:16:36

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1:16:51

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1:16:55

Our executive producer is Noel

1:16:57

Brown. We're produced and edited by Josh

1:17:00

Fisher. Additional editing support

1:17:02

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1:17:05

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1:17:07

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1:17:12

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