0:03

I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of

0:05

Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write

0:08

the Dear Therapist advice column for the Atlantic.

0:10

And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of

0:13

Emotional First Aid, and I write the Dear

0:15

Guy advice column for Ted. And

0:17

this is Deo Therapists.

0:19

Each week we invite you into a real session

0:21

where we help people confront the problems in their

0:24

lives and then give them actionable advice

0:26

and have them report back to let us know what happened

0:29

when they did what we suggested.

0:30

So sit back and welcome to

0:32

today's session.

0:34

This week, a young married couple wants

0:37

to learn how to stop their arguments from escalating

0:39

into destructive screaming matches.

0:41

My sister moved in with us and there's

0:43

been rules that need to be set in place for the household.

0:46

We've had certain disagreements and it always

0:48

ends with arguments to where we don't even want

0:50

to talk to each other anymore.

0:52

First, a quick note, Deo Therapists is

0:54

for informational purposes only. It does not

0:56

constitute medical or psychological advice,

0:58

and it's not a substitute for professional health health care

1:00

advice. Diagnosis or treatment. By

1:02

submitting a letter, you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia

1:05

use it in part or in full, and we may edit

1:07

it for length and clarity. In the sessions

1:09

you'll hear. All names have been changed for the privacy

1:11

of our guests. Hey

1:17

guy, Hi Laurie. What

1:19

do we have in our mailbooks today?

1:21

Today we have a letter from a woman who wants

1:23

to know how she and her fiance can

1:25

learn to not turn every

1:28

discussion into a screaming match.

1:30

And we're actually going to have both

1:33

of them on to talk about that. And here's

1:35

the letter. Dear Therapists.

1:38

I am in a ten year relationship with my now

1:40

fiance, Finn. We have grown

1:42

up together and he's my best friend. I

1:44

absolutely love him. He is a police

1:47

officer and his line of work has trained

1:49

him not to show emotions. I work

1:51

as a therapist. Great combination.

1:53

I know.

1:55

Recently his sister moved in with us,

1:57

and that has really pushed us to argue about

1:59

household rules. Sometimes I feel

2:01

so alone, and I've expressed this to him. He

2:04

is receptive, but I worry that the stressors

2:06

we face now are minimal compared

2:08

to the ones that we may face later. On down the

2:10

line when we get married and have children. We

2:13

have gone through so much change over the last

2:15

ten years, but I feel like we argue

2:17

like our teenage version of ourselves. Sometimes

2:20

we say things that really hurt each other and we don't

2:22

communicate well. I really want us

2:24

to fight better, because I know we feel

2:26

like we are both losing sometimes. I

2:29

would love your support in helping us to connect

2:31

and identify unhealthy communication patterns.

2:34

We'd like to learn how to have a discussion without

2:36

turning it into a screaming match. Thank

2:38

you, Grace.

2:40

Grace and Finn have been together since they were

2:42

young, and it sounds like they might have grown

2:45

and evolved, but their communication together

2:47

has not. So they really do need

2:50

to learn very different habits than

2:52

habits they've already established over ten

2:54

years. And I'm very glad we have both

2:56

of them here because it really does

2:59

require two to

3:01

change your communication style.

3:03

And what I like too about this letter is

3:05

that she's not saying the problem is with my partner.

3:08

A lot of times we get these letters and people say,

3:10

my partner does this, How do I get them

3:12

to change? And what she's saying is we

3:15

both do this, and we both need to learn

3:17

how to change. So let's go

3:19

meet them and see how we can help. You're

3:24

listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio.

3:26

We'll be back after a short break. I'm

3:36

Laurie Gottlieb.

3:37

And I'm Guy Wench and this is Dear

3:39

Therapists.

3:42

So Hi Grace, Hi Finn.

3:44

Thanks for coming on the show.

3:46

Thanks for having us.

3:46

Yes, thank you so much for having us.

3:49

You're very welcome. We'd love to hear

3:51

a little bit about how you guys got together

3:53

when, and just how the relationship

3:56

has been over the past ten years.

3:58

We started dating high

4:00

school, so we've been together

4:02

since we were teenagers, and

4:05

there's just been a lot that has happened

4:08

throughout the last ten years, like surviving

4:10

like long distance while I was in college.

4:13

Finn is from out of state and so he

4:15

has family over there in so just having to

4:18

juggle like visiting them too. We've

4:21

had a lot of successes

4:23

in our careers and also like

4:25

in our personal lives of getting a house and getting

4:27

engaged, and so I think it's been

4:30

really good, but there's also been like really

4:32

difficult moments

4:34

too.

4:35

Tell us about the difficult moments.

4:38

There's just a lot of things that happened growing

4:41

up together, just having to figure out

4:43

how to be in a relationship

4:45

and like stay in one, but also being

4:47

able to find like our own identities and

4:49

that now we have a house and

4:51

Finn's sister recently moved in, and that's

4:54

just been a little bit difficult because we

4:56

haven't lived together for a terribly

4:58

long time. I think it's been be.

5:01

A year to no, about two years now.

5:03

Two years, so eight of those

5:05

years that we were together we didn't live together.

5:08

It's just been kind of

5:10

difficult navigating that different

5:12

dynamic of having somebody else there.

5:15

You were tearing up when you talked about that

5:17

You've been through some hard things. Could

5:19

you give us an example of what some of those

5:22

hard things were and what makes you

5:24

feel emotional when you think about

5:26

them.

5:26

I think just when me and Finn

5:28

were younger, I

5:31

was off in college and there

5:34

was just a lot of things that I

5:36

did that I wasn't like super proud of. Lying

5:38

a lot there was just I think

5:40

a lot of pain cause because of that. And

5:43

so even

5:45

though there had been a lot of really good

5:48

and beautiful moments, there's also been a lot

5:50

of difficult ones as well, including that

5:52

period of time.

5:54

Can you tell us what the lies were about

5:56

and how the two of you got through that.

5:58

Sure, we were young teenager and

6:00

as most teenagers do, we experiment

6:03

with most commonly like marijuana,

6:06

and I was heavily against

6:08

drinking alcohol, smoking, and

6:11

some of the difficult things that we went through were I

6:14

guess Grace wanted to experiment

6:16

a little more with that, and when

6:19

I would ask her questions about it, she would lie to

6:21

me and say that she was home, when in reality she was with

6:23

friends smoking stuff

6:25

like that that created trust issues between

6:27

us, and then when she went

6:30

off to college a couple hours away, I

6:32

just feel like that there were still trust

6:34

issues, which created more issues

6:37

within our relationship, and it

6:39

just made it difficult as we got older.

6:41

It's interesting because in

6:43

your letter, Grace, you said that

6:47

the two of you don't know how to disagree

6:50

without something turning into a screaming

6:52

match. And

6:55

I think that this is an example early on

6:57

where instead of something turning into

6:59

a scream match, you disagreed about something

7:02

and you both kind of avoided it. I

7:04

don't want to talk to you about the fact that I

7:06

want to do something different, so I'm

7:08

going to lie. So that we don't

7:11

have to have some kind of confrontation.

7:14

Yeah, I think that happened,

7:16

and so sometimes

7:19

does happen. I've tried to really

7:23

encourage Finn and even myself

7:25

to have really difficult conversations because

7:28

avoiding them hasn't helped us.

7:30

But sometimes it's really

7:32

difficult because when we get into arguments,

7:35

I feel like I'm usually

7:38

the one having to bring them up, and

7:41

sometimes I just get tired of it because I

7:43

like want Finn to bring up the

7:46

things that he is feeling and experiencing,

7:49

but that doesn't always happen.

7:51

When these lies were happening, how

7:54

did you deal with the fact that the

7:56

lies were discovered? And

7:58

then how did the two

8:00

of you prepare that?

8:03

So as far as discovering it, I feel like I

8:06

would just ask a lot of questions and

8:09

the answers wouldn't add up to me. So I'd ask

8:11

further questions like where are you

8:13

here, let me FaceTime you, and I'd

8:16

get a response It's like, well, I'm in my room, I'm

8:18

falling asleep, it's dark, and

8:20

I'd say, well, turn on the light. It was just questions

8:23

like that that would give me the answers

8:25

to tell me that I was being live to. In

8:29

reference to how we got through it, I

8:31

feel like maybe communication. I remember talking

8:33

about it, apologies, tears

8:36

as I'm being told it's not going to happen again.

8:39

Did you believe that that it wouldn't happen

8:41

again?

8:42

I did. This was towards the end of high

8:44

school. Yes, and then when she went to college,

8:47

we were about a two and a half hour

8:49

drive away from each other. And

8:51

what I'm saying is incidents like those just didn't make

8:53

it easier being in a long distance relationship.

8:56

Grace mentioned that she brings up

8:59

difficult conversation and she wishes you would do more

9:01

of that. In terms of the

9:03

trust and repairing

9:06

that rupture from late

9:08

high school and the colleges. Do

9:11

you feel that's repaired on your

9:13

end, and if not, do

9:15

you bring it up as something to

9:17

discuss and figure out.

9:19

I don't bring that topic up, per

9:21

se. I feel like we do trust each

9:24

other. I feel like that was our high school

9:26

selves that made those mistakes, and I know that people

9:28

grow and mature, they become different people as they

9:30

get older. We haven't had any

9:34

recent issues when it comes to lying, So

9:37

I feel like, in reference to me trusting

9:39

Grace. That's gotten a lot

9:42

better.

9:42

You know, the patterns get set up really early

9:45

in a relationship, and

9:47

the two of you got together at a certain time

9:49

in life when you're still figuring out who

9:51

you are, you're still developing

9:53

emotionally. You haven't had a lot of experience

9:56

in relationships because you guys were

9:58

a primary relationship very early on. And

10:02

so I'm thinking about not

10:04

only the lies, but this

10:07

question of what do you do when you fundamentally

10:09

disagree about something? How do

10:11

you tolerate difference in the relationship.

10:15

You've Finn said I'm not okay

10:17

with smoking and drinking,

10:20

and Grace thought, this

10:23

is the time that I want to experiment with that.

10:26

And I'm sure over the course of the last ten

10:28

years you've had other fundamental disagreements

10:30

about things, because two different

10:32

people will have different ideas at times. So

10:37

how did the two of you deal with those

10:40

times when you have different ideas

10:42

about things? You're both looking

10:44

at each other and smiling.

10:45

And maybe you can tell us about one

10:48

more recent example of a disagreement and how

10:50

you've dealt well or not with

10:53

it.

10:54

Right.

10:54

I feel like, for example, when Grace mentioned

10:56

that my sister moved in with us, and

10:59

there's been rules that need to be set in place for the household.

11:02

We've had certain disagreements and it always

11:05

just ends with just

11:09

arguments to where we don't even want to talk to each other

11:11

anymore.

11:11

And to be clear with both of you, when we talk

11:13

to couples, couples never

11:16

argue about world peace. They

11:19

argue about the towel on the floor, the suck

11:21

in this. So we know it's going to sound trivial.

11:24

That's what couples argue about. But give us an

11:26

example of house rules that you'd argue

11:28

about.

11:29

The most recent one was I've really

11:31

struggled with food and body

11:34

and people's bodies. And

11:36

something that's been really difficult is Finn's

11:39

sister used to make a lot of comments about

11:41

people's bodies. And it

11:43

was really difficult because sometimes

11:46

Sin, me and his sister

11:49

would be home and she would make these comments,

11:51

but Finn wouldn't hear them. And I think, like

11:54

just growing up, that was always something that was

11:56

in my household, so I just didn't want it and

11:58

like my and so it

12:01

was something that I had talked to her about and

12:04

something that she said she was going to work on but

12:06

then it continued to happen. And I

12:08

know that when you set a boundary sometimes it

12:10

needs to be restated, but I

12:12

just felt really unheard. That's

12:15

what happens a lot when we disagree.

12:17

I just feel very unheard. And

12:19

so that time we had like

12:21

a really bad argument because I

12:24

had told him she had made a comment

12:26

and I would really appreciate if

12:29

he would say something when

12:32

those things would come up as well, not just

12:34

me. And then something that made me really

12:36

upset was he

12:39

had said that she had gone

12:41

to him and whispered

12:43

in his ear that she had lost weight.

12:45

And even though I had told him that's

12:47

something that I don't want to be discussed

12:51

here, I just got really upset because

12:53

why didn't you say something about

12:55

like stopping it? And he did it? And

12:57

I don't know. That was just a really hard argument.

13:00

I had left the house that night just because

13:02

I didn't want to talk about it.

13:04

Then can you tell us you a side of that, please?

13:06

Sure? So she's always struggled with her

13:08

weight, and if somebody makes

13:10

any negative comments towards anybody's body

13:13

type, she does not like it, which is understandable.

13:15

I guess it wasn't aware that she had this conversation

13:18

with my sister about, hey, in our household, we're not going

13:20

to speak about body types, body

13:22

weight, anything like that. So

13:25

my sister one day came up to me and said,

13:28

I've lost some weight, which was her goal,

13:30

and I said, oh, well, hey, good for you. You

13:32

know, she's telling me about one of her accomplishments. So I told

13:34

her a good job. And later

13:37

on, Grace and I had this conversation

13:39

about, hey, we don't want these conversations being brought

13:41

up in the household, so I brought it

13:43

to her attention. I said, well, hey, my sister recently

13:46

made this comment to me, and I

13:48

told her congratulations because she was

13:51

telling me of one of her accomplishments. And

13:53

I just started this massive argument

13:56

that why did I say congratulations? Why did I

13:58

put a stop to it? That she felt

14:00

like I was going against her. I

14:02

felt like, WHOA, I didn't have any bad intentions.

14:05

My sister came up to me to tell me something. I said,

14:07

I'm just so I'm good for you for your

14:09

accomplishments.

14:10

When you had that disagreement as teenagers,

14:13

Grace decided to do what she wanted to do and

14:15

just not tell you and you're

14:18

the opposite, Finn. Your sister said

14:20

that to you without Grace

14:22

there, So technically you

14:24

didn't have to tell Grace that your sister

14:27

had that private conversation with you, but

14:30

you did. And then it turned

14:32

out that there was a very

14:34

negative consequence to telling the truth.

14:37

If Grace back then had told you

14:39

the truth, there probably would have been a very negative

14:41

consequence too. Actually, I'm

14:44

in the backyard smoking with my friends. You

14:46

would have gotten really upset, so

14:50

so you're smiling. So I

14:52

just want to point out that pattern that it's

14:55

kind of like, if you don't tell the truth, you

14:57

create a trust issue, and if you do tell the

14:59

truth, you get into a huge argument. So

15:02

there's no good solution here

15:05

in the current way that the two of

15:07

you communicate.

15:08

And my question would be,

15:10

were you arguing the same

15:13

points twenty times, which is

15:15

how arguments tend to escalate. You just make

15:17

the same point again and louder, or with more

15:19

of an exclamation point. I just want to get a sense

15:22

of how that escalated into you

15:24

not sleeping in the house.

15:26

I was just working really hard to set boundaries

15:29

with his sister about what was allowed

15:31

and not allowed in the house. I just wanted

15:34

Fenn to say, hey, Grace has already

15:36

set that boundary, but the fact

15:38

that he didn't just made me feel

15:40

like he didn't respect the boundaries

15:43

that I was trying to set.

15:45

Finn was saying that he didn't think that violated

15:48

the boundary because it was said in confidence. Maybe

15:50

he shouldn't have conveyed that to you, but that was

15:52

just something between he and his sister.

15:54

They could have discussed it on a walk or something not in

15:56

the house. The boundary is really about

15:58

her saying things in front into view. That's

16:01

where the disagreement is on the principle between

16:03

the two of you in this case, did you talk

16:05

about that principle?

16:08

I feel like she just doesn't want any conversations

16:11

about weight or body types. And

16:13

what I was trying to explain to her was I didn't

16:15

feel right telling my sister, Hey,

16:18

I know you're coming up to me. You're confiding in

16:20

me with your accomplishments about losing

16:22

weight, which was your goal, and I didn't

16:24

want to answer and just say, well, stop stop,

16:26

I don't want to hear anything. We're not having

16:28

these conversations here in this household. It's not allowed

16:30

because if that was me, and I was trying to reach a goal,

16:32

and I finally told somebody like, hey, this is my goal and

16:34

I've accomplished it. I would feel really

16:37

bad if somebody told me, don't tell me about

16:39

that price.

16:40

Just to be clear, is your request that

16:44

these conversations not happen in front of you, or

16:46

that these conversations never happen at all?

16:49

I guess she's not in front of me, but it makes

16:51

it really difficult to hear that.

16:54

Finn. I guess was praising weight

16:56

loss specifically with his sister because

16:58

she had told me I'm skipped meals,

17:00

I'm not eating, so it wasn't accomplished

17:03

in like a very healthy manner,

17:06

and in my head, it was like perpetuating

17:08

in eating disorder. But he didn't have

17:10

that information.

17:11

Finn, what was your purpose in telling Grace that you had

17:13

had that private conversation with your sister.

17:16

I believe the topic had came up somehow

17:20

that night, and I told her, well,

17:22

hey, I just want to tell you just so it doesn't

17:24

come up later on. She says, well, why don't you tell

17:26

me? And then it just blew up,

17:28

like if I had just completely

17:30

betrayed her.

17:32

You know what's interesting about this specific argument,

17:34

and I'm not sure this one's typical, but

17:36

your sister, Finn, actually, by coming

17:39

to you when Grace isn't in the room, whispering

17:41

it just in case she's in earshot, she's

17:44

actually abiding by the

17:46

boundaries Grace, that you set,

17:48

because she did interpret them to me, not in

17:50

front of you. She was trying to abide

17:53

by those boundaries by having it as

17:55

a private conversation with her

17:57

brother. And I just want that to be

17:59

there as well, because Grace, your feeling is

18:01

I don't feel heard and I don't feel seen.

18:04

But in this case, she

18:06

was actually doing it because she had

18:08

you, and that's why it was in a whisper

18:11

even when you went in the room. Do you see

18:13

that, Yeah?

18:15

I do.

18:15

I'm wondering if the two of you would try a little

18:18

experiment right now, could

18:20

you have that conversation

18:22

again right now, just so we can hear what

18:24

it sounds like, Finn, If you could start at

18:27

the point in the conversation where you

18:30

told Grace that this had happened

18:32

with your sister, don't try to recreate what actually

18:34

happened. We want to hear you just right

18:37

now. How would it sound if you had the conversation

18:39

right now.

18:40

So with what we're recently talking about, I

18:43

just want to let you know that my sister did come up to me.

18:46

She told me that she had lost some weight and

18:49

she whispered it to me, and she was excited about

18:51

her goal. So I told her, good job, congratulations.

18:54

I just thought i'd let you know, thank you

18:56

for leving me.

18:57

Now, where are you at right now, Grace,

18:59

because you seen him and that obviously is

19:01

not how the original discussion went.

19:03

So this issue goes, what are you feeding right

19:05

now?

19:06

When Laurie asked about why

19:09

Finn had brought that up, I don't

19:11

think that it was to let me know in

19:13

case I found out. We were in a really

19:15

like heated argument.

19:17

Already about what.

19:19

So we had brought her a donut and she

19:22

had said, yike's two donuts

19:25

in one day, like not a good

19:27

thing. And so then I went to the

19:29

room told him, and

19:31

she makes comments like that, would you mind

19:34

helping me reinforce the boundary? And

19:37

then he kind of paused

19:39

and he said yeah. But then I

19:42

took that as he didn't actually

19:44

like want to do that, even though

19:46

he was saying he did. He

19:50

said, so, do you just not want any conversations

19:52

to be had about this? I said, well,

19:54

yes, like I don't want that to happen. And He's

19:57

like, she actually came up to me and was said

19:59

this and like secret because she didn't want you to hear

20:01

it, And so it sounded more of like because

20:04

of the way that you think this is now

20:06

the consequence of that of people having to tiptoe

20:08

around you, and so it

20:11

didn't seem like it was I'm telling you this because

20:13

I don't want you to find out later. It

20:15

was more I'm telling you this because I'll get the disruption

20:18

that you're causing.

20:19

This is really tricky and nuance to

20:21

be clear, because this was

20:23

almost like a provocation. He is a donut

20:26

and then she responds to the doughnuts spontaneously

20:28

by saying, oh, it's too in one day, so

20:31

she had her own reaction because she has her own issues,

20:33

perhaps with weight and food. And my question for you,

20:35

Finn is, if you disagree

20:38

about where the boundary is or what's a reasonable

20:41

boundary, do you feel comfortable if you have

20:44

a different position to voice it on

20:47

a topic that's a really sensitive topic for Grace.

20:50

I don't feel one hundred percent confident.

20:52

Can you tell Grace your point of view?

20:53

So that night I had explained that my

20:56

point of view was if somebody came to me telling

20:59

me their goals and their achievements and they were happy

21:01

about it, I didn't want to shut them down. Now

21:03

if it was having some sort of negative impact where

21:05

they were disrespecting you, I would have immediately

21:08

put a stop to it. The other thing

21:10

I explained to you was, for example, if

21:12

I was working toward

21:14

my goals and I was finally reaching them, it

21:17

would feel really good if somebody said, hey, good job. And

21:20

then when you told me that that still wasn't okay,

21:22

I just felt like, okay, Well, then I don't want to say anything

21:24

around you.

21:25

You guys are talking about the content,

21:29

and what we would like you to talk about is

21:31

the process. So you can argue

21:33

the different points about anything. We happened

21:35

to be talking about this weight

21:38

boundary, but we could be talking about any

21:40

of the many arguments that the two of you have had,

21:43

And the process is what

21:45

Grace was picking up on earlier, which

21:49

is that she suspects and I suspect that

21:51

she's right that you feel a bit constrained

21:54

by this boundary, and you're also not sure

21:56

where the boundary begins and where it ends.

21:59

So can you talk to her about what the two of

22:01

you do when you

22:04

feel like I want to help make you feel comfortable

22:06

and at the same time this is making

22:09

me so uncomfortable that

22:11

we need to find someplace where we both

22:13

feel comfortable.

22:14

Something that we've argued about which I feel like

22:16

everything ties in together has been

22:19

jealousy. We've recently had arguments

22:21

about jealousy and

22:24

coworkers texting me where

22:26

there was no the

22:29

conversation ever went anywhere other than

22:31

work related conversations. There

22:34

was this big argument to where she went through

22:36

my phone, went through my social media pretty

22:38

much, and I explained to her this goes back

22:40

to the trust issues as well. I said, you can

22:42

look through my phone, but I just want to

22:44

let you know that if you go through that, you're telling me how much you

22:46

trust me. I know I'm not hiding anything.

22:49

After I explained that to her, she still

22:51

went through it, and I said.

22:52

Okay, can you tell Grace

22:56

how you feel about what happened? And then

22:58

Grace, I want you to tell Finn

23:01

how you feel about these

23:03

texts. And what you see. We

23:05

want to stick with, not the facts and not whether nobody's

23:08

right or wrong here. So there's no let me tell

23:10

you why I'm right. It's let

23:12

me tell you how this makes me feel. That's

23:15

all we want to hear.

23:16

So when you want to go through my phone,

23:18

are you started questioning me about text

23:20

messages? I feel like maybe

23:23

you just don't trust me, and I

23:26

don't know. It makes me question whether I'm doing something

23:29

wrong. I go through my messages, I go through

23:32

my phone, and it's just I feel like a

23:35

bad person for some reason, even

23:37

though I feel like I'm not doing anything wrong.

23:40

Yeah, I feel like because of

23:42

the history that we've had with lying,

23:45

sometimes I think that you're going to do

23:47

something back because

23:49

I hurt you like years

23:51

ago. And so when

23:54

I see a reoccurring coworker's

23:56

name pop up, I just start

23:59

to put in

24:01

information that isn't there and

24:05

makes me wonder about

24:07

a lot of things, even though you've

24:09

never given me a reason to feel

24:12

that way. Sometimes those thoughts are

24:14

so big that I have to do

24:16

something and check and make sure.

24:19

Grace, you're sitting with a lot in that moment, and

24:22

you do have to do something about those feelings.

24:24

Does it occur to you that one of the things you could do

24:26

is come to Finn and say, hey,

24:29

you know, I sometimes get these feelings

24:31

that you haven't totally

24:33

forgiven me or gotten over those

24:36

lies I told you years ago, back

24:38

in high school and college, and it makes

24:41

me worry that you're still holding

24:43

some kind of anger or resentment

24:45

and that that will be expressed in some kind

24:48

of way. So when I see a coworker's

24:50

name come up, immediately go to is that how

24:52

it's being expressed. I have these

24:54

worries and fears, and I thought I should tell

24:57

you about them, because I know you haven't given me any

24:59

reason to be concerned

25:01

or suspicious, but I thought you should know where

25:04

my mind goes. Has it a goed to you that

25:06

you can just go with the feeling without

25:10

actually the behavior that

25:12

signals I don't trust you, But to convey

25:14

I do trust you here, I'm sharing.

25:16

This what you're saying to you

25:18

guys obviously the most ideal,

25:20

but I think that Finn

25:23

has sometimes a difficult time with receiving

25:26

emotions and expressing them,

25:28

and so if I think it will be

25:31

met with while I'm not doing anything or

25:33

the emotion won't be touched

25:36

on.

25:36

Can you tell him what would be a response

25:39

that would feel really comforting

25:41

and reassuring to you?

25:43

Yeah. I think if I were to come to you

25:45

and tell you about what was coming up for

25:47

me, I think something that

25:50

would be helpful is I

25:53

think sometimes like when I come to you,

25:55

you ask like, well, why why do you feel that way?

25:57

And I think it would just be helpful

25:59

for you to respond

26:04

with I would never want to like hurt

26:06

you in that way of having that reassurance,

26:09

I think like that

26:12

would be helpful in those moments.

26:15

Would it help if he give you a

26:17

hug in those moments?

26:20

Yeah? And I think

26:22

it would be helpful if you gave me like

26:24

a.

26:25

Hug, Finn.

26:26

How does that sound to you?

26:27

I hear what she's saying, and what

26:30

I've expressed in the past is almost

26:34

like if I were to apologize to what she says,

26:36

I feel like I'm kind of accepting what she's saying

26:39

as to you know what, You're

26:41

right, I am.

26:43

Did you hear that she was asking for you

26:45

to apologize for something? Is that

26:47

how you heard it?

26:48

I heard she wants to be heard. I

26:51

know that actually.

26:52

She wants to be reassured. M

26:55

that's what she wants.

26:57

But also there's going to be a critical difference,

27:00

Grace, in terms of how Finn

27:02

hears it. If you say

27:05

it the way I suggested, in which you say, I

27:08

have these worries and concerns,

27:10

they might not be reasonable. I'm going back so many

27:12

years, but I'm sharing my anxiety

27:15

with you. Sounds very different

27:18

than sometimes I worry if you're doing

27:20

such and such, if you come from the place of this

27:22

might be me as opposed to it's you. Because

27:25

when Finn hears as I'm feeling suspicious,

27:27

he hears that as therefore you did something

27:29

that triggered that, as opposed

27:32

to I'm still dealing with some of these

27:34

feelings, and this is what comes up, which

27:36

sounds much less an accusation,

27:39

And I think that's what would make it much easier

27:41

for Finn to just stay with reassurance

27:43

if he knew that's what you needed, as

27:45

opposed to feeling like he has to defend

27:48

himself because there's a subtext

27:50

of accusation.

27:52

I do catch myself often trying to

27:55

defend myself, and that's been another

27:57

argument in itself. For example, if

27:59

she'll ask me questions, why is she texting

28:01

you? Why does her name always pop up? Why does she always

28:03

ask you questions? Why does she call her husband?

28:06

And I answer her questions, I say, well, I

28:09

have more experience than my

28:11

career to what I could help this

28:14

person out. And

28:16

after I get my explanation, and she'll say, I just don't understand

28:19

why she's texting you, though I feel it's

28:21

almost like I'm being interrogated.

28:23

Or it's an attack.

28:25

Correct, an attack? That was the word I was about.

28:27

To say, Greece. It's interesting

28:29

that the trust issues come

28:32

up because you

28:34

were the one who lied to Finn, and

28:37

yet you question whether he's going to

28:39

retaliate and be

28:41

dishonest with you. So

28:44

he hasn't done anything that has

28:48

made you question whether you can trust

28:50

him. And I'm wondering, given

28:53

that some of this has to do with your insecurity,

28:55

have you ever explored any of

28:58

that your own history in therapy?

29:01

Yeah.

29:01

I currently go to therapy every week,

29:03

and that's something that has

29:06

been the focus most recently,

29:08

the history of my confidence,

29:10

because I feel like something that I've

29:12

discovered in therapy is engaging in

29:14

self sabotaging behaviors, and I

29:17

know that it can be like overwhelming

29:19

for Finn sometimes,

29:22

and so I have expressed I

29:24

hope that you don't get tired

29:28

and like leave. He has never said he was

29:30

going to, but you know, I just feel like sometimes

29:32

people can only take so much.

29:35

Well, that's the self sabotaging. Though. You're

29:37

worried that he's going to leave, so

29:40

then you try to control

29:42

him in all these different ways, which

29:44

might actually not make him leave, but make

29:47

him feel less close to you. Yeah,

29:50

So the very thing that you're afraid

29:52

of, by trying

29:54

to control him so that it doesn't happen,

29:57

might actually make him feel overly

30:00

controlled, and then he's going

30:02

to feel distant from you. So

30:04

we're suggesting that there are other ways. It

30:07

sounds paradoxical, but to be less

30:09

controlling will actually

30:12

allow him to come closer to you. Yeah,

30:15

And that's where you're going to have to deal with your anxiety,

30:19

because it's your anxiety that you're bringing to him.

30:21

It's not anything that he's done. It's

30:24

this anxiety about

30:26

whether you are worthy of

30:28

his interest, and

30:31

he's not doing anything. And

30:34

you agree with that, I think in principle,

30:37

Yeah.

30:37

I do agree. I do agree that he

30:40

isn't doing anything and hasn't done anything.

30:43

Finn, how does that feel

30:45

to hear that? For her to say he isn't

30:47

doing anything and he hasn't done anything. This

30:50

huge smile swept over

30:52

you.

30:53

She's acknowledged that in the past, And what

30:55

makes me smile is that I feel like, although

30:58

that's been acknowledged, the argument have

31:00

still come up.

31:01

And Finn, have you acknowledged

31:03

to Grace how that makes you feel

31:05

in those moments? Have you been able to

31:08

say to her something like, you

31:10

know, Grace, I'm trying really hard to

31:12

understand how you feel. But sometimes when

31:14

it it's about your anxiety,

31:17

and it comes out in a way that makes

31:19

me feel that I'm defending myself

31:21

a lot. And I don't feel resentful,

31:23

but I might if this continues.

31:26

I think we've had that conversation.

31:28

You've said those things.

31:29

So we have this huge walking closet

31:32

and it's in our bedroom

31:35

and one time we were sitting in there and we actually

31:37

had a calm conversation. We were expressing

31:39

our feelings about this topic. In

31:41

particular, from what I remember,

31:43

I thought I had explained that to her about

31:46

how I felt about this.

31:47

Yes he did, he did, Yea,

31:50

what happened where you were able to go

31:52

into the closet and have a really

31:55

calm conversation. Is

31:57

that a place that the two of you can go and

31:59

have home or conversations. What happened that

32:01

time that went so well, that

32:04

went so differently from all of these other

32:07

conversations that escalate into screaming

32:09

matches.

32:11

I might have been getting ready for bed, I don't remember,

32:13

but she walked into the closet and she just said,

32:15

hey, take a seat. We sat down

32:17

and we just started talking. She apologized

32:20

about things

32:22

that she has said, and I believe I also

32:25

apologize.

32:25

He did express. I just feel

32:28

like when I'm accused of these things,

32:30

it just really upsets me because I'm

32:33

doing X y Z to try to build

32:35

like a future for us, and it just doesn't

32:38

feel great. There was like really deep conversations

32:40

about emotions I really really

32:43

like, and so when I have them with Finn,

32:45

it just makes me really like happy when

32:48

I hear about his feelings and what's coming

32:51

up for him. But I feel like that's very rare.

32:54

But that's why it's so important, Grace and

32:56

Finn that we come back to this question

32:58

that we're asking you what allowed

33:01

that to happen in the closet

33:03

at that time. What allowed

33:05

you, Finn, to feel comfortable enough not to

33:07

defend, but to actually be vulnerable

33:11

and talk about your feelings.

33:13

What was that?

33:15

I feel like it was when I would

33:17

tell her pretty much how I felt,

33:20

she would look at me and listen. I remember

33:22

her specifically just

33:24

nodding her head to reassure me that she

33:26

was listening to what I was saying.

33:28

I think that what allowed you to say it

33:30

is that she says, let's talk,

33:33

and the talk started with an apology

33:35

rather than an accusation. The

33:37

minute you don't feel you have to defend, you have more

33:39

access to your feelings

33:42

because you're not busy defending, and you have

33:44

a little bit more ability to

33:46

express them, and then grace,

33:49

you have the ability to hear them and appreciate

33:51

them. And that's really important

33:54

to note that when you start

33:57

with the anxiety, which

33:59

finnu here as an accusation or

34:01

an attack, then you get defensive.

34:04

Then those conversations don't go

34:06

well. But when you start with a vulnerability

34:09

and you respond with vulnerability,

34:11

then you connect. And that is key

34:14

for the two of you to remember that each

34:16

being vulnerable is going to allow

34:18

you to have much more productive

34:20

and connective conversations than

34:23

being defensive or accusatory.

34:26

Yeah, makes sense, Chrace,

34:29

what is going on for you right now?

34:31

I think I just like appreciate

34:34

guy saying that, I

34:39

just want then to be more

34:42

open.

34:43

To doing that, and I

34:45

think that he is open to doing

34:47

that when he doesn't feel

34:50

like a big argument is about to

34:52

break out. Going

34:54

back to the weight issue, for example,

34:57

do I tell her this? Do I not tell her this? What

35:00

do I do? In this moment? He

35:02

can't really talk about his experience

35:05

of what it's like when he feels

35:07

like there's no way to please you. Yeah,

35:10

because I think ultimately he

35:13

wants you to feel good. But

35:15

sometimes what you're asking of him feels

35:18

impossible, confusing, unrealistic.

35:22

That's where these conversations

35:24

are so important. That you,

35:27

in an ideal world might

35:29

like there to be zero discussion of

35:32

weight, and it's particularly in your

35:34

home, and then you have this other

35:36

person living with you, and

35:41

you might reasonably say, look,

35:43

I don't want people to discuss diets

35:45

and weight and their insecurities

35:47

in front of me, Okay,

35:50

but they have to be able to talk about things

35:52

amongst themselves because

35:55

otherwise they can have their own independent relationship.

35:58

Yeah, and that conversation

36:00

just escalated because there's no room

36:03

for both of the perspectives. So

36:06

I'm wondering if we can just go back and see if you

36:08

guys can have a different discussion right now

36:10

about weight and what that might look like, and

36:13

if you can really invite Finn

36:15

to share his feelings about

36:19

what this is like for him as

36:21

someone who thinks you're beautiful, knows

36:25

your history and

36:28

wants to be able to create

36:30

some harmony in the household and make

36:32

you feel comfortable, but also create

36:34

an environment where he feels comfortable too.

36:38

Can you ask him offer an invitation

36:40

to him. Both of you need to keep that in

36:42

mind that when you're talking to the other person,

36:45

you're offering them an invitation. You're

36:47

not trying to sway them. You're trying

36:49

to invite them from a place

36:51

of curiosity. Can you make that invitation

36:54

to him?

36:55

So I want to, I guess,

36:58

talk about conversation and how

37:01

can I make you feel more comfortable.

37:03

How can I reassure you that I'm

37:06

okay with listening to what you have to

37:08

say, that I'll really try and understand it and hear it with

37:10

my ears rather than with my gut.

37:12

I feel like when you ask

37:14

me questions, especially difficult

37:16

topics like this, if I give

37:19

you a response, you can't

37:21

tell me that my feelings

37:24

are wrong. I feel like that's what makes it tough.

37:27

So what would make it comfortable

37:29

or I guess like more reassuring

37:31

for you in those moments?

37:34

How can I reassure you that I'm

37:36

listening and I'm taking in how you feel.

37:39

I'm thinking about the conversation that we had when we were sitting

37:41

in the closet. It was a calm voice,

37:45

eye contact. We were not

37:47

cutting each other off.

37:49

So Finn, can you tell her how

37:51

you feel about the boundaries

37:54

right now that are in the household and

37:57

what you would like to see that

37:59

take into account Grace's feelings but also

38:02

yours.

38:03

I know the boundaries that you want set in

38:05

the household, to

38:07

a point, I feel like they were a little vague. I

38:10

want more clarification because

38:12

I feel confused to where it's like, well,

38:15

what can be said and what cannot be said?

38:17

What do you think you would be comfortable with what's

38:19

being said.

38:21

Me personally if I feel like it's not attacking

38:23

you, For example, I've used to say clean

38:25

food. Right, if I were to eat certain

38:27

foods like hey, I don't want to eat junk

38:30

food or dirty food, not get attacked

38:32

and say, well, food's not dirty. You

38:35

can't say that. Comments like that just make

38:37

me say, okay, well I don't want to say anything

38:39

then never mind.

38:41

What was good there, Grace

38:43

is that you were intent on following up and

38:46

understanding. You stuck with it until

38:48

he did get to some specificity.

38:51

You mentioned feedings a couple of times, and

38:54

I think it would be good for you, Finn, to have

38:56

more of that. For each of the positions

38:58

you have. You can have a feeling behind

39:01

it. You can say, for example, or try

39:03

and stay away from the things I know are problematic.

39:05

But if something comes out and it's in the gray area,

39:09

it would be great if you just let it go. So I

39:11

didn't have to feel like I'm self conscious about

39:13

talking about the stop because then I just don't

39:15

want to talk about it. So you add a layer

39:17

of the emotional impact before

39:20

the request comes, and

39:22

that makes it much easier for

39:24

Grace to hear and understand, and you

39:27

kind of know how you feel. It wasn't very

39:29

difficult for you to articulate

39:31

to get to the feelings, and that phrasing you

39:33

use Grace about what would be comfortable.

39:36

It's a really useful one, what would be comfortable,

39:39

because it's a really considerate question

39:41

to ask, So there's something generous in the question

39:44

alone.

39:45

Yeah, and I'm thinking back

39:47

to that original disagreement

39:49

that you guys had about whether

39:51

Grace could experiment or not experiment

39:54

with smoking and drinking, and

39:57

that's another place where you'

40:00

finn felt very strongly the way Grace

40:02

now feels very strongly about the way conversations

40:06

and you tried to control her and

40:08

it didn't work out too well. She

40:10

ended up lying, She ended up going behind your back.

40:12

She wasn't able to say to you, I

40:15

really want to experiment with this, saying no, you don't

40:17

really feel comfortable with it. I don't

40:20

want to lie to you, but I also feel

40:22

like this is something that I want to do right

40:25

now. And maybe she would have or maybe she wouldn't have.

40:27

Maybe you would have had a better conversation about

40:30

it, and it wouldn't have caused so

40:33

much anxiety on both sides

40:36

because there would have been room for you to talk

40:38

about we have this difference and

40:42

we're different people and we want to

40:44

make each other comfortable, but we also

40:47

need to live in the world. Every couple

40:49

has to manage those questions. How

40:52

much do we make the other person comfortable, how much do

40:54

we make ourselves comfortable? Where can those overlap

40:56

where we're both comfortable, and where

40:58

are the ways where we have to tolerate a little bit

41:00

of difference. And that might be

41:02

where you don't like the terminology

41:05

he uses around something, and he can be

41:07

aware of that and try to change that, But he's

41:09

also saying, if I happen to use this terminology

41:11

because that's what I'm used to, can

41:14

we just not make a big deal out

41:16

of it. I'm trying in all of these ways, and

41:18

I want to be recognized for

41:20

all the ways that I'm trying to make you comfortable. But

41:23

at a certain point I become uncomfortable because

41:26

I feel like I can't say anything without

41:28

me being bad in your eyes. And

41:31

same with this question around the texting

41:33

and the coworker, where

41:36

he's saying, I need

41:38

you to trust me on this, and I

41:40

will be there and give you the hug and give you the

41:42

reassurance. But if it happens

41:45

every single time it's going to push

41:47

me away. It's going to be hard for me to

41:49

do the thing that you want that makes you feel

41:51

comfortable. Grace, which is me being vulnerable

41:53

and opening up with you.

41:55

Yeah, and grace

41:57

also to recognize that when he said

42:00

to you, you can look at my phone

42:02

whenever. If you look at it too much,

42:04

it's going to imply that you don't trust me, and that

42:06

will make me feel all kinds

42:08

of things. It's the principle of the access

42:11

that's reassuring, rather than having

42:13

to verify that however regularly by

42:15

going through the phone. The fact that you have access

42:18

should be the reassuring thing and the thing that

42:20

you then convey appreciation for.

42:24

And maybe what you're really asking underneath

42:26

all that is, can you give me more reassurance

42:29

that you find me attractive? Regardless

42:31

of these texts,

42:34

I'm, for whatever reason, feeling insecure,

42:37

and here are the ways that I

42:39

would love to be reassured.

42:42

Maybe it's verbally, maybe it's nonverbally

42:45

through touch. Do you know what those

42:47

ways are that you like to be reassured

42:49

that you feel desired by him? He

42:51

looked right at you, like, Oh, I really want to

42:53

hear this. So this would be really good information

42:55

for him.

42:56

I think through touch, but also your

43:00

words. I know that you say

43:02

like you love me, we say that a lot, but

43:05

I think just being able to express,

43:07

like wristuff, you do find

43:10

me attractive, not just when I get my eyebrows

43:12

done or something. I'm not saying that

43:14

you only do it with them, but like that reaction

43:17

that you do where you're like, dang, I

43:19

like onet that more.

43:20

When she gets like her eyebrows done, her eyelashes,

43:23

I just did this exaggerated

43:26

hype pretty much. I'm like, day,

43:29

that looks so good. Let me see it. Can take a

43:31

picture of this that looks good.

43:33

And look at the expression on her face

43:35

when you do that. Yeah, right,

43:37

and so that's great that

43:40

all kinds of other ways to do that.

43:42

You can do that that way, but it

43:44

gets a really strong response,

43:46

and Race is saying she needs more of

43:49

that and not

43:51

just eyebrows day. It

43:53

can be a regular day, and it can be passing by

43:56

and just touching her as you pass by and

43:58

whispering something to her little moment that

44:00

can really convey that

44:02

would be good to amplify.

44:05

That's definitely something I'm going to try more.

44:09

And I have one last question. You mentioned

44:12

in your letter that sometimes you say things

44:14

that you don't mean.

44:15

We don't call each other names, but we do

44:19

attack each other. Last night,

44:21

for example, I was talking to him

44:23

about starting a couple's therapy and

44:26

I had brought up like something about

44:28

entrance and the cost, and he said

44:31

something along the lines of it's going to

44:33

be X amount a month, So how long do you think

44:35

it's going to take? And I said, well,

44:38

it just depends on how invested

44:41

we are, I guess. But when he asked

44:43

the question of well how long is this going

44:45

to take? Guy shut down. I stopped talking

44:48

because.

44:48

You heard it as we

44:51

are not worth investing in. How

44:53

did you hear it?

44:54

Yeah, like it's going to be that

44:56

much, so we can just work on it by ourselves.

44:59

Like I don't prioritize our marriage.

45:01

That's what you heard. That's not what he said, but that's what you

45:03

heard, right, Yeah, okay,

45:06

right, I don't think you were saying to Grace,

45:09

I don't prioritize us for our marriage.

45:12

Can you tell Grace what you meant when you said

45:14

that?

45:15

Well, I feel like the conversation came up

45:17

about the insurance not taking it for couple's

45:20

therapy. And as

45:22

I was driving, you were giving me all these numbers

45:24

about how much it might be, and

45:27

I just said, okay, so how much would it be a

45:29

month? I was just

45:31

asking for our financial information

45:33

pretty much. And the reason I was asking you

45:35

is because what you do for work, I feel like you'd have more

45:37

information. So I was pretty much asking,

45:40

Okay, we'd be paying this much a month, how

45:42

long would you like to keep

45:44

going to this person? And

45:48

when I kind of got the negative response to it, where

45:50

I was like, hey, that's not what I meant, I

45:52

feel like that's when I got upset. And something

45:55

Grace didn't mentioned is I told her, you know

45:57

what, it doesn't matter what the price is. I'm willing to pay X

46:00

of money just so I could finally ask you questions

46:02

in peace.

46:05

I'm laughing because that

46:07

is the core of what happens both ways.

46:11

You both interpret each other's

46:13

behavior as an attack.

46:15

The interpret questions as an attack.

46:20

Yes, you interpret questions like tell

46:22

me about the text. Oh, you're bad, right,

46:24

you're cheating on me. So when you think

46:26

about how we make stories

46:29

up in our heads about what something means.

46:31

We try to make meaning and we tell a story and your

46:33

story there, Grace was he doesn't

46:35

prioritize our relationship. This is a burden.

46:38

He's kind of grudgingly thinking about can

46:40

we put a price on our marriage, right or

46:42

does he want to spend the money on something else that's

46:44

not as valuable. And

46:47

I think what he was saying is I'm trying to protect

46:49

us. Of course, I value our marriage

46:51

and I'm trying to take care of our financial

46:54

picture at the same time. So I'm trying

46:56

to be responsible by

46:58

figuring out, Okay, how can we make this work?

47:01

And so I need information because of your

47:03

profession. You might have an idea about

47:06

how long this might go on, and that can help me

47:08

budget. So let's try to think about

47:10

this. His interpretation was,

47:12

I'm asking these questions for the good of us, and

47:15

you heard, oh, I'm not invested

47:17

in us.

47:18

Yeah. I do think that that happens

47:21

a lot when we argue, Finn.

47:23

We'll often say like, I'm not trying

47:25

to attack you, like I'm on your team, but

47:29

it doesn't feel that way. Sometimes both

47:31

like we're on completely opposite

47:33

teams.

47:35

Well that's mutual, right, you both feel attacked

47:37

in the conversations that you have then

47:40

we're going to suggest ways for you to change some of that

47:42

dynamic. And the new thing to

47:44

do would be to say, I'm beating

47:46

that a little bit as an attack. Do you mean that

47:48

this way? Or how do you mean that? And you

47:51

need to be much slower in

47:54

how you have these discussions because

47:57

you say one short thing and another short

47:59

thing, and then the ten assumptions in between

48:02

those things, and a lot of them are wrong. You

48:05

really have to put assumptions aside, slow

48:08

it down and go, wait, I was feeding that

48:10

that might be wrong. I just want to check. So the

48:12

slowing down, the rushing forward

48:14

based on faulty assumptions, which you

48:17

each have plenty of as we've seen today,

48:19

will be very helpful.

48:26

So, Grace and Finn, we have some advice for you, and

48:29

we were thinking about how

48:32

you met so young, and

48:34

how we all, no matter what age we meet,

48:37

bring things from our childhoods

48:39

into our current relationships.

48:43

And what we would like you to do is to each

48:45

write down one thing

48:48

that you think you bring in.

48:50

So Grace, what do you bring in? Finn? What do you

48:52

bring in that sometimes gets

48:55

in the way of being

48:57

present in the moment. For example,

48:59

Grace, you mentioned that you have a history in your

49:01

family of weight being handled

49:04

a certain way. So what part

49:06

of that gets in the way of these conversations

49:09

with Finn and Finn you probably have something,

49:12

maybe you felt accused, but whatever

49:14

it was that you think sometimes

49:18

gets conflated with what's happening in the present

49:20

in this relationship. Now, So

49:22

that's the first task. We always say, if it's hysterical,

49:25

it's historical, and that means that if

49:27

you're having a really big reaction to something,

49:29

part of it is about what's happening in the moment,

49:31

but part of it is also probably about

49:34

what has happened in the past that

49:36

is getting layered onto the conversation in

49:38

the present.

49:39

Okay, do you want us to share it with each

49:41

other?

49:42

Yes, reflect on it separately, write

49:45

it down, and then share it with each other.

49:47

Another task would like you to do once

49:49

a day each of you

49:52

initiate a flirtation. It

49:54

can be very mild, it can be acute

49:57

text. It can be you paused

49:59

by and you caress the other

50:01

person. It can be you say

50:04

something complimentary, or you leave a

50:06

voicemail, you left a note

50:08

about AI miss your cute

50:10

face. Something that's flirty

50:13

so it's romantic slash sexual, but

50:15

one little flirt that each give

50:18

to one another once a day because

50:20

that will remind you of

50:22

your romantic connection.

50:24

I think you guys are much more excited about this task

50:26

than the first one. You guys are smiling so much

50:28

right now.

50:31

I thought that was easier.

50:32

And that's something that we know. Grace is really

50:34

craving and I'll bet you too.

50:36

Fit.

50:36

It's nice to hear that your partner really desires

50:38

you as thinking about you, and they bring that

50:41

sense of fun back to the relationship,

50:43

and so when you are having more difficult conversations,

50:46

you have that glue of the fun and the enjoyment

50:48

as well.

50:49

The next thing is we know that sometimes

50:51

your arguments can escalate

50:55

and go from zero to sixty very

50:58

very quickly, and especially on

51:00

certain topics. We'd like

51:02

you to both recognize that the minute

51:04

the escalation is happening, and you know when it's happening

51:06

because faces are getting read

51:09

or tones might get louder, emphasis

51:11

might be stronger. The minute

51:14

that's happening, it means you're

51:16

not understanding the other person,

51:18

you're getting defensive, you're getting combative,

51:21

you've stopped listening and trying to understand

51:23

the other person, and you have a history of making a lot of assumptions,

51:26

some of which might not be true. So

51:29

every time one of you catches

51:32

both of you catch an escalation happening,

51:34

you get to come up with

51:37

a ceasefire. And

51:40

the instruction is you go into curiosity

51:42

mode, because at that point

51:44

you've stopped understanding the other person. So now

51:46

that's the actual goal. You pause whatever the argument

51:49

is about and say, phinn,

51:51

I'm getting annoyed, I'm getting frustrated, but I'm putting

51:53

that aside. I really want to understand exactly

51:57

what you think and how you feel about it, and

51:59

let's spend a little bit of time on that, and then we can spend

52:01

time on you understanding me.

52:03

But let's make sure we really understand one another

52:06

rather than making assumptions and now giving on assumptions

52:08

that are faulty in the first place. It

52:11

is very difficult to stop

52:13

mid argument, but usually

52:15

be fine if one of you can take the initative at

52:17

some point and say the

52:20

escalation time, curiosity time, whatever

52:22

the phrase that you would use that

52:24

suits you, and come up with the phrase that is

52:26

the signal. This is a way to really train

52:28

yourselves to get curious rather than get angry.

52:31

And in both of your lines of work, as

52:33

a police officer, you know all about

52:36

de escalation and how to handle that. And

52:38

as a therapist grace when things start

52:40

to escalate, you know how to help people

52:42

de escalate. So come up with something

52:44

that feels familiar to

52:47

both of you in terms of how

52:49

can we de escalate with each other?

52:51

What is the word? The action

52:55

that we know is just our shorthand.

52:57

And now we're going to get really curious because

53:00

clearly we're not understanding each other right now,

53:03

and you might even need as part of the de escalation.

53:05

We're going to take a fifteen minute break.

53:08

And once you find the word that will get

53:10

you to stop what you're doing. Shake

53:12

hands on the fact that when somebody

53:14

uses that word, it's like a timeout

53:17

you go to abide, So just be very clear that

53:19

you're agreeing to abide by that timeout.

53:21

We find that if words are getting really loud

53:24

and people can't hear each other, sometimes

53:26

the signal that they have with each other is one person

53:28

will just start dancing, one person does a

53:30

funny move for something with their body, and

53:32

then it's like, oh, whoa wait, Okay,

53:35

got it, and the other person has to mimic it, and you just

53:37

okay, we're on the same page. Now, this is

53:39

our de escalation, and that means this is

53:41

our ceasefire right now, and the other person

53:43

does it in kind. Maybe we need a little break to de escalate

53:46

ourselves. But we're going to come back to it

53:48

and get curious.

53:49

And we're going to recommend a book about

53:51

couple's communication, and

53:54

we'd like you to this week read

53:56

the chapter, listen to the chapter together, and

53:58

just discuss what you took away from it how you can

54:00

implement anything there in your own lives.

54:03

The book is called Seven

54:05

Principles for Making a Marriage Work,

54:07

and it's by John Gottman. You're

54:10

smiling, Grace, you're familiar.

54:11

Yeah, I have it on my Amazon curve, but I haven't

54:14

ordered it.

54:15

Well, then it's going to be very easy to order. We

54:19

want you to each listen to the chapter or each read

54:21

and then discuss this week, because

54:24

as you will see, there there are four signs

54:27

of poor communication. They're called them

54:29

the four horsemen of the apocalypse. All

54:31

couples have them, but when they are really the

54:33

main pattern of the communication,

54:35

they're very problematic and

54:37

they include criticism, contempt,

54:41

stonewalling, and defensiveness.

54:43

And again it's about the dosage and the frequency,

54:45

but we want you to be aware so that you can

54:47

avoid them.

54:48

And the next thing is we love the fact

54:50

that when you got into

54:53

the closet together you were able

54:55

to have this really calm,

54:58

open, vulnerable conversation

55:01

with each other. You could truly hear

55:03

each other. It felt safe to both

55:05

of you. So we would like you

55:07

to build in to your relationship

55:10

a once a week, very quick

55:13

relationship check in in the closet.

55:16

Go in the closet once a week, and

55:19

make this like a date. It's

55:22

not going to feel burdensome because it could be five

55:24

minutes. And it's really that

55:26

curiosity exercise. Tell

55:28

me about you, tell me about

55:30

you, and it's just to

55:32

really get to know what's going on inside

55:35

for each other, and

55:37

it's a place that you're associating with. We

55:40

feel safe to be open here. We

55:43

don't escalate in here. We

55:45

know that we can go into curiosity

55:48

mode in here, and

55:50

it's good for us to check in because sometimes when we

55:52

don't check in, things build up and

55:55

then we're already primed

55:58

to have an argument because we're already

56:01

upset. We want you to talk about it before you get upset.

56:03

So the closet is a very sacred place. We

56:05

do not escalate in the closet.

56:08

Okay, sounds good.

56:10

Okay. If you do get into an argument

56:12

this week, or you do have a disagreement this week,

56:15

we would like you to do

56:17

the stop whatever that signal is for you. We

56:20

want you to go into the curiosity, and then we

56:22

want you to argue the other person's

56:25

perspective. And by argue, we

56:28

don't mean get loud. We mean we

56:30

want you to articulate. If

56:32

you are the other person, tell

56:35

your version of it from that person's perspective.

56:38

You don't have to agree with their perspective at all.

56:41

It's just now I really understand

56:43

why they feel this way, I understand

56:45

why this is a big deal to that, and

56:48

then you can kind of come to Okay, now

56:50

what do we do now that we both really feel

56:52

that we understand the other person.

56:54

It's very powerful to hear the other

56:56

person argue your perspective because then it makes

56:58

you feel like, Okay, she does get it. Ok he does

57:00

get it, because he's doing a good job about giving my side.

57:02

I think that sounds pretty like doable

57:05

and good.

57:07

It sounds good. I really like the exercise,

57:09

even though it sounds like it'll be a little tough. I like the

57:11

one where we have to argue the other person's point

57:13

of view. I was like, Wow, that's I've

57:16

never thought about doing something like that. It seems

57:18

interesting. So I'm looking forward

57:20

to trying that exercise out.

57:22

Yeah, thank you so much for having Uslie

57:24

really appreciate it. I feel like

57:27

you guys are really helpful and being able

57:29

to just get to I

57:31

guess, the root of things, and so I really appreciate

57:34

you taking the time and having us on here.

57:43

You know, one of the things our listeners can't see

57:45

is how a couple, when they're sitting next to each

57:47

other are interacting during the session.

57:50

And this couple was so

57:52

warm, and they were looking at each other, and they were

57:54

smiting at each other, they were touching each other

57:56

the entire time they had contact between

57:58

them. It was really an important

58:01

facet that we certainly register very

58:03

much as therapists, and it makes us feel like this

58:05

is a couple that really cares about each other. And

58:08

that's always great to see because

58:10

that's a strong foundation to build in.

58:12

Yeah, I think it was clear how much love there is between

58:15

the two of them. They clearly care

58:17

a lot about each other, and they have a

58:20

real enjoyment of each other

58:22

that they could smile, they could laugh when

58:25

Grace would start to tear

58:27

up or cry. He was

58:29

very present. You know, when we think about

58:32

couples who have communication difficulties,

58:35

but they also don't have the glue

58:37

that this couple has, there's another

58:39

hurdle, and they don't have that hurdle. I

58:42

do really think that the fact that they got

58:44

together young it gave them one advantage,

58:46

which is that they on one hand, kind

58:48

of grew up together. On the other hand,

58:51

they're still using

58:53

communication patterns and they still

58:56

have childhood histories getting in the way

58:58

of adult communication.

59:01

But I think that the tools that we gave them are

59:03

things that they can use every single day

59:06

and find that eventually,

59:09

when they put these into practice in a consistent

59:11

way, that it's really going to change

59:13

the way they interact with each other on a

59:15

regular basis and they won't have those

59:18

kinds of escalations.

59:19

And that's the thing that I think is

59:21

also very encouraging. They both seem so open

59:24

to these tools and to experiment with these things

59:26

and even a little excited about it. So

59:28

that's very promising.

59:35

You're listening to dear therapists. We'll

59:37

be back after a short break. So,

59:51

guy, we heard back from Grayson Finn and

59:53

I'm excited to hear how their week went.

59:55

Hi Laurie, Hi Guy, this is Grayson

59:58

Finn. We were just calling you to

1:00:01

give you an update on the tasks that

1:00:03

you asked us to do, starting

1:00:05

with the cute text flirting.

1:00:07

That was really fun. I feel like receiving

1:00:10

Finn's messages really made me feel loved

1:00:13

and like he was thinking about me, and

1:00:15

just also being able to do that with him too.

1:00:17

I think really bridged

1:00:19

and furthered a connection between the two of

1:00:22

us.

1:00:23

Yeah, same thing. Grace actually left

1:00:25

a posted note

1:00:27

on the mirror one day that I saw when I

1:00:29

woke up, and I feel like that really

1:00:32

meant a lot, even though something really minor,

1:00:35

made me feel a lot more connected to her, And it's crazy

1:00:37

how something so small impacted

1:00:39

my day. So I feel like that really

1:00:41

helped.

1:00:42

And then we were able to establish

1:00:45

kind of like we didn't argue this past

1:00:47

week, which was kind of really nice.

1:00:49

There was a little bit of a

1:00:52

we were going to argue, but it ended

1:00:54

up not being an argument. It was something

1:00:56

that again was filled with assumptions,

1:00:59

but we kind of talked about it a little

1:01:01

bit. We did establish that

1:01:03

we were going to try to hug when we were

1:01:05

arguing, and Finn even said

1:01:07

he was going to break out in a dance move, so

1:01:10

I'm looking forward to seeing that. And

1:01:12

we were able to read the chapter

1:01:15

of seven Principles of Making a Marriage Work.

1:01:17

It was really interesting to

1:01:19

kind of reflect on the things that I did and brought

1:01:21

into the relationship, and hearing

1:01:24

Finn's perspective was helpful.

1:01:26

The same thing on reading the book, I

1:01:28

was able to see some

1:01:31

of the stuff that I bring into the relationship that

1:01:33

maybe I never realized and saw I write this chapter.

1:01:36

So I feel like reading this chapter really

1:01:38

did help out a lot. And the homework

1:01:40

the all assign actually, I feel like just

1:01:42

really helped us out. And we didn't

1:01:45

argue.

1:01:45

This week, And I think a lot of the reason

1:01:47

why we didn't argue, which me and Finn talked about,

1:01:49

was being able to be more connected

1:01:52

and feel more like friends

1:01:54

almost even though we were never not friends,

1:01:56

but just being able to hear some vulnerabilities

1:01:59

from Finn and vice versa. We

1:02:01

did go into the closet. We actually

1:02:03

sat there for quite a while, more than five

1:02:05

minutes, and we talked about some

1:02:08

things about a relationship but also

1:02:10

some things that we need from

1:02:12

each other, which was really nice. And it

1:02:15

was there. Yeah,

1:02:17

and it was fun to see Finn

1:02:19

so excited to do the homework.

1:02:21

He like was actually like looking

1:02:24

forward to it, and it was really nice

1:02:26

to see that. And we were able

1:02:28

to practice articulating

1:02:31

the other person's perspective based

1:02:33

off of a previous argument, not based off

1:02:35

of a current one, since we didn't get into one, but

1:02:37

we were able to kind of see

1:02:40

each other's sides and argue those points.

1:02:42

More than anything, we really want to thank you laur and

1:02:44

Guy because we feel like you guys did

1:02:47

a phenomenal job at being able to help

1:02:49

us connect more and help us communicate

1:02:51

better.

1:02:52

Yeah, I appreciate you guys so much. Thank you for listening

1:02:54

to us, thanks for giving us the opportunity to come onto the podcast,

1:02:57

and once again, just I

1:03:00

feel like it definitely improved our relationship with

1:03:02

feeling more connected. So again, thank

1:03:04

you' all very much.

1:03:10

You know, Finn is really getting

1:03:12

curious about this relationship now and

1:03:14

getting curious about how things work, and she

1:03:16

is too. And when I hear that they

1:03:19

had a conversation about the fact that they didn't

1:03:21

really have an argument and what that's about, that's

1:03:24

great. That's a couple who are starting to be

1:03:26

self reflective, looking at what they're

1:03:29

doing, how they're communicating, and getting

1:03:31

curious about it. It is the best

1:03:33

ingredient for good communication

1:03:36

and for working on things.

1:03:37

And that's so important. So we're not saying to

1:03:39

them, don't argue. We're saying, when

1:03:42

you have a disagreement, can

1:03:44

you use the tools that we gave you curiosity

1:03:47

looking at the four horsemen from the Gotman

1:03:49

book, what are the assumptions? Can

1:03:52

you articulate the other person's perspective?

1:03:55

Can you go into that space, which for them was

1:03:57

the closet. It was a nice safe place for

1:03:59

them to go. And can

1:04:01

you then be more vulnerable

1:04:04

in that space of trust where you know it's

1:04:06

not going to escalate? And I love also

1:04:08

that they decided they're going to hug. That's

1:04:11

going to be their signal to each other that

1:04:13

they're escalating, and that Finn might break

1:04:15

out into a dance move I think that's a brilliant

1:04:17

strategy.

1:04:19

I love it too. Finn is the police officer,

1:04:22

Grace is a therapist. She's the one that's

1:04:24

more emotional. But as we always

1:04:26

say, there's a difference between what we express

1:04:28

in terms of what we're feeling and what we're actually

1:04:30

feeling, and both

1:04:32

of them had really similar emotional

1:04:35

responses to the assignment.

1:04:37

Both of them felt really buoyed by the flirtation.

1:04:40

Finn really felt touched by the post

1:04:42

it on the mirror. They were both

1:04:45

excited to read the book and to discuss

1:04:47

it. They both felt much

1:04:49

more connected to one another and felt

1:04:51

that that was important because they needed that.

1:04:54

I think their emotional experience under

1:04:56

the hood, away from what they actually projected

1:04:58

the outside world, is really similar

1:05:00

in that way, and which is great because they're both

1:05:02

emotional, they're both of the capacity for

1:05:05

it, and they both need that connection.

1:05:08

I love guy what you say about connection, because

1:05:10

when people are arguing, they're

1:05:12

completely disconnected. They're not connecting

1:05:15

in any way, shape or form. They're trying to prove their

1:05:17

point. They feel unheard, they feel misunderstood,

1:05:20

and everything that they did this week

1:05:22

made them feel further connected. It

1:05:24

built up the trust and that allows

1:05:26

the space for curiosity, which is also

1:05:29

why Grayson Finn, if you're listening, we'd

1:05:31

like you to still do that first task that we gave

1:05:33

you, which was to tell each other one thing from

1:05:36

your history that you bring into this relationship.

1:05:39

But I do think guy, that they made good steps in starting

1:05:41

to build trust and closeness and

1:05:43

that that allows the space to hear each other, and

1:05:46

even the flirting exercise, it just

1:05:48

makes them feel more valued and

1:05:50

held by the other person, and that's

1:05:52

the foundation that we all need to

1:05:54

feel understood in a relationship.

1:06:00

Next week, a woman whose parents are

1:06:02

pressuring her to get married and have a baby

1:06:05

wonders how to set boundaries with her family.

1:06:08

When I was twenty three, he would say, oh, no,

1:06:10

she doesn't need to get married yet. She's so

1:06:12

young, she has time. And then you know, in

1:06:14

a couple of years after that's all, you're too old.

1:06:17

You don't have time.

1:06:18

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If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,

1:06:34

email us at Lauriandguy

1:06:37

at iHeartMedia dot com. Our

1:06:39

executive producer is Noel Brown.

1:06:42

We're produced and edited by Josh Fisher,

1:06:44

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1:06:46

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1:06:49

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1:06:51

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1:06:53

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