0:03

I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe

0:06

You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear

0:08

Therapist advice column for the Atlantic.

0:10

And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional

0:13

First Aid, and I write the Dear Guy advice

0:15

column for Ted. And this is Dear

0:17

Therapists.

0:18

Each week we invite you into a real session

0:21

where we help people confront their biggest problems

0:23

and then give them actionable advice and

0:25

hear about the changes they've made in their lives.

0:28

So sit back and welcome to today's

0:30

session. This

0:32

week, a woman who loves her husband

0:34

worries about his anger toward their young children

0:37

and considers whether she should leave him to protect

0:39

them.

0:40

It's not healthy for our daughter.

0:42

You need to get therapy or we're going to leave

0:45

so that I can protect her first.

0:47

A quick note Deo Therapists is

0:49

for informational purposes only, does

0:52

not constitute medical or psychological

0:54

advice, and is not a substitute for professional

0:56

health care advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

1:00

The advice of your physician, mental health professional,

1:02

or other qualified health provider with

1:04

any questions you may have regarding a medical

1:07

or psychological condition. By submitting

1:09

a letter, you are agreeing to let ihelp media

1:11

use it in pot or in full, and we may

1:13

edit it for length and clarity. In the sessions

1:16

you'll hear, all names have been changed for the privacy

1:18

of our guests.

1:21

Hey Laurie, Hey Guy.

1:24

So what do we have in our mailbooks today?

1:26

So today we have a letter from a woman who's having

1:28

some difficulty in her relationship,

1:31

and it goes like this, Dear

1:34

Laurie and Guy, I'm in a really

1:36

difficult position in a relationship that started

1:38

off five years ago as a spontaneous

1:41

rulw'in in romance and has only

1:43

mildly dampened with time and two

1:45

young children, a three year old daughter

1:47

and a five month old son. I

1:49

am still in love with my boyfriend Jake and

1:51

enjoy spending time together and as a family.

1:54

The problem is that during my second pregnancy

1:57

and postpartum, his parenting style towards

1:59

our old has changed, and he is quick

2:01

to lash out at her verbally and emotionally.

2:04

He is intolerant of her age, typical boundary

2:06

testing and tantrums, and I can see the

2:08

harm done by the way he handles this. Playing

2:11

referee and mediator between what feels like

2:13

two toddlers is exhausting, especially

2:16

while caring for an infant. It's like

2:18

I don't have a partner to help share the load.

2:20

His nasty demeanor towards our daughter has

2:22

made me think more than once that I should leave him,

2:25

But paradoxically, I feel this will

2:27

end up with him having more one on one time

2:29

due to a custody agreement where I will be unable

2:32

to do damage control and intervene. There's

2:34

no abuse, and I recognize the value

2:36

of having time with their dad, so sole

2:38

custody doesn't seem realistic or healthiest.

2:41

I've approached Jake about couples counseling,

2:44

him, getting anger management counseling, and

2:46

even let him know I was considering leaving. These

2:49

resulted in tears on his end and promises

2:51

to try to get better, but nothing is changed.

2:54

I feel paralyzed, and I'm not sure what arrangement

2:56

would be best for the kids. I also

2:58

wonder if breaking up would be healthiest for me, because

3:01

if I'm worrying about the kids the entire time they're

3:03

with him, maybe it wouldn't be I

3:05

would greatly appreciate any help figuring

3:07

this out. Sincerely, Becca.

3:11

Well, it's interesting because Becka says that

3:13

there's no abuse, but lashing out

3:15

at children verbally is

3:18

a form of emotional abuse, so certainly

3:21

can be when it's harsh and it goes on over

3:23

time. So I'm really glad that

3:25

Jake is actually joining us today

3:28

because it sounds like something we really need to

3:30

talk to both parents about to get

3:32

an understanding of what's going on and why and

3:34

what can change there.

3:36

Yeah, exactly, emotional violence

3:38

is abuse, and it has long lasting effects

3:40

and it can be very traumatic, especially when

3:42

it's ongoing. And when it's ongoing,

3:44

we call that complex trauma because

3:47

it's not one event, it's multiple events

3:49

happening all the time. And

3:51

it sounds like Jake realizes

3:54

that something needs to change,

3:56

but he's having trouble doing the changing.

3:58

And that's why I think it's important that we're both of them

4:00

on.

4:01

Every day. We see in our offices people

4:04

who've had an experience in childhood

4:06

in which their parents would yell at them

4:08

or speak to them very very harshly, and

4:11

they're very damaged by that. So we really have

4:13

to be very clear that how

4:15

parents speak to their children does have a

4:17

big impact. It doesn't require physical

4:19

abuse to leave a scar. Let's talk

4:21

to them.

4:22

Yeah, let's do that.

4:25

You're listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart

4:27

Radio. We'll be back after a short break.

4:38

I'm Lori Gottlieb and I'm Guy Wench

4:40

and this is Dear Therapists.

4:44

So, Hi Becka, Hi Jake.

4:48

Thank you for coming on the show.

4:49

Thank you for having us.

4:51

So we're glad both of you are here because

4:53

this is an experience that is going

4:55

on between the two of you, and I think before

4:57

we get to the problem that you wrote in about beck

5:00

with your daughter, we wanted

5:02

to understand a little bit more about

5:04

earlier in your relationship and

5:07

how you decided to have kids. It sounds

5:09

like you said it was a whirlwind. Everything happened

5:11

very quickly. And since we heard

5:13

from you already, Becca, Jake, why don't you tell us

5:15

a little bit about your experience of early

5:17

in the relationship and then the first pregnancy

5:20

and first experience of being a parent.

5:23

So none of it was planned. Actually,

5:26

Becca called me and sprung

5:28

the news on me that she found out she

5:31

was pregnant. So that was a very big

5:33

shock, came completely out of left field.

5:36

When you say it was a shock. Was it a

5:38

good shock, a scary shock? What

5:41

kind of shock?

5:42

Scary? For sure? I

5:45

didn't really think I was going to possibly even have her

5:47

have kids. It was something that wasn't really

5:50

thought about that much. I was

5:53

all about having fun cars,

5:56

motorcycles, friends. Never

5:59

really gave I guess

6:01

fatherhood a serious

6:04

thought.

6:06

How old were you at the time.

6:08

I was twenty five when we met, so you would have

6:10

been twenty nine.

6:11

Twenty nine, twenty nine.

6:13

Jake, How did you come to terms

6:15

then? Given this with such a shock, you weren't even thinking

6:17

you might have kids. Now you find out

6:19

you have one on the way. Tell

6:21

us how you adapted to that. What was the process

6:24

for you?

6:26

I don't really know what the process was.

6:28

Just kind of went with the flow. It

6:31

was definitely scary the entire time, you know, going

6:33

from possibly never having

6:36

kids still all of a sudden, within the next

6:38

nine months or so, I'm going to have a little, tiny, little

6:40

baby.

6:42

How long had you known each other at that point

6:45

you or nine months? So,

6:48

given how new the relationship was, had

6:50

the two of you talked about having a future

6:52

together or was that not even on

6:54

the table at that point in the relationship.

6:56

Yeah, we definitely had the conversation of having a future

6:59

together. Becca's lease

7:01

where she was living was coming to an end,

7:04

and so was mine, who were starting

7:06

to discuss getting an apartment together. I

7:08

don't recall if that was before after

7:11

finding out about Isabella, but

7:13

I did know going

7:15

into her line of work

7:18

that we would potentially have to be relocated

7:20

at some point, and I

7:22

was on board from the beginning.

7:24

Jake, it sounds like you really

7:27

didn't think about a future with kids.

7:29

Becca. Did you think about a future with kids,

7:32

and if so, did Jake know

7:34

that you thought about a future with kids.

7:37

Yeah.

7:38

I actually initially had the thought

7:40

that I would have like four or five kids

7:42

someday. When Jake and I met,

7:44

it was, as I kind of mentioned, kind of like a whirlwind

7:47

because we spent like pretty

7:50

much every day together for the first six

7:52

months when on all these adventures had

7:54

a ton of fun. The idea

7:56

of having kids eventually

7:59

like kind of came up in a lighthearted way. Like

8:01

we were looking over text messages the other

8:03

day and one was like, Uh,

8:06

he'd message me like, Oh, if we do have kids,

8:08

they would be Gerber babies. They'd be so cute.

8:11

But we never had like a serious conversation

8:13

about it. And I think, like from

8:16

a relationship perspective, I

8:18

think the first or the second night we met, I told

8:20

him that I was in medical school

8:22

at the time, and I was like,

8:24

oh, you know, in a few months when I match,

8:28

I have no control over where I go, so I

8:30

don't know if we should get into anything. And he was like,

8:32

oh, I'll follow you wherever you go. So

8:34

I think there was like a pretty intense connection

8:36

early on.

8:38

So when you texted Becca about

8:40

having Gerber babies together, was there a

8:43

part of you that thought maybe you did want

8:45

kids.

8:46

I think if I was going to have them, it would have been

8:48

later on. Like I said earlier, I was

8:50

still having a lot of fun at the

8:52

time. I was living with a couple of

8:54

my good friends, working Monday through Friday and

8:56

Surrey and Sunday's, having a

8:58

blast, going on guy trips here and there,

9:01

and seriously thinking about settling

9:03

down with a family and children was definitely

9:07

way in the back of my mind.

9:09

Jake, So tell me about the discussion

9:11

between the two of you and you get that phone

9:13

call, since you were so blindsided

9:16

by it, what was the discussion like between

9:18

the two of you about the fact that this is happening

9:20

and how you felt about it.

9:23

It was scary, for sure, getting

9:25

that information. I didn't know the

9:27

first thing about kids. I didn't have any brothers

9:29

or sisters. I was an only child. The

9:32

closest thing to being around a baby

9:35

was my cousin's And there's

9:39

a lot to learn.

9:40

So Becca, tell us what happened between the two

9:42

of you.

9:44

It wasn't something that we thought that deeply about

9:46

because I was on birth control, so

9:48

I didn't really think it was a possibility, and I

9:51

was very faithful. I had an alarm in my phone.

9:53

Was not planning on getting pregnant.

9:56

So when I started having symptoms,

9:59

I was a and I was like, okay, let me just

10:02

take a test just to put my mind at ease. And

10:05

when it was positive, I know, I started crying.

10:07

I called my best friend and I was like, I don't really know

10:09

what to do. Should I tell Jake

10:12

now or should I wait until he comes

10:14

to visit next weekend. She had said,

10:17

you know, if it was me, I'd probably want

10:19

to know as soon as possible. So

10:22

I called him and he was definitely really

10:24

shocked by the news. He's normally a very talkative

10:26

person, and it was pretty

10:28

silent, but he said like, Okay,

10:32

I just need a little bit of time to think about this, but

10:34

whatever you want to do, And over the

10:36

next couple weeks when we talked, it

10:39

just seemed like he was very much

10:41

like, Okay, ball's in your court, Becca, whatever

10:43

you want to do, I'm behind you one hundred

10:45

percent. So I thought about

10:47

it and I decided, you know, I did

10:50

want to have multiple kids, and

10:53

it might not be the most ideal

10:55

circumstance, but I really felt

10:58

like I had a great connection with Jake and

11:00

could see a future together. So

11:04

we talked and he was okay with

11:06

us kind of moving forward deciding to keep

11:08

the baby.

11:10

Did you understand how

11:12

Jake felt or was the messaging

11:15

you were getting just whatever you decide,

11:17

I'm here. But

11:20

did you understand more of all

11:22

of the ambivalence and terror

11:25

that he was experiencing.

11:29

I don't think so. I don't think I knew that he was

11:31

scared. I thought there might

11:33

be like some remorse over like the loss of

11:35

the life that he was getting to live. I

11:37

got definitely the remorse for that part

11:40

of his life, but I didn't know

11:42

that he was scared until today, Actually.

11:45

Jake, why didn't you share that with her?

11:47

And she had a lot on her plate as it was going

11:50

through med school, and

11:53

I guess it was my burden to carry

11:56

to deal with Definitely

11:59

not one too. I guess share my feelings

12:01

and put my feelings out there. Quite often I kind

12:04

of bury them and just deal

12:07

with it.

12:07

Is it still something that you feel hesitant to share

12:09

when you're having challenging feelings?

12:12

Do you still hesitate to share them with Becker?

12:14

Even now.

12:17

On occasion? I just I

12:19

guess the word is suck it up and deal with it would

12:21

be the best way to describe what Typically.

12:24

So it's a decision and it's a philosophy that

12:26

you have that one shouldn't share.

12:29

It's better for you to not let

12:31

her know how you're feeling about things, I.

12:34

Mean certain things. If it's a big

12:37

enough issue, yes I would share.

12:40

But if it's something that's going to

12:42

blow over, or it's it's only a

12:44

small thing, then I'll

12:47

just deal with it.

12:48

Said. The question is whether it indeed blows

12:51

over or whether over time these

12:53

feelings accumulate and then they come out

12:55

in other ways.

12:59

Yeah, there's definitely times where

13:01

I blow up and it comes

13:03

out in anger. For sure. It's

13:07

usually work related. The stresses

13:10

from work definitely add up. I

13:13

think I let my feelings no pretty

13:16

well about work.

13:18

You let them be known because you share them with BECO,

13:20

or because you blow up and then it

13:22

becomes apparent that something's bothering you.

13:24

I'd say probably a little bit of both.

13:27

Jake, I'm curious about this idea that you have that

13:30

it's a burden to share your feelings with someone

13:32

else and that it's better

13:34

if they just kind of blow over. Was

13:37

that something you learned earlier on in life.

13:40

Yeah, my family isn't. Definitely

13:42

not some a family that I guess

13:45

shares their feelings all

13:47

that often. Talking

13:49

about our feelings was definitely not something

13:51

that ever happened.

13:53

Do you see the connection between

13:56

not expressing your feelings

13:59

unless it's a big deal. Do you see the connection between

14:01

keeping all of those things in and

14:04

the temper and then blowing up and having a

14:06

short fuse.

14:08

I've always had a temper. I

14:11

saw therapists quite a few years ago for

14:14

my anger, and in that.

14:16

Work, was it suggested that part

14:19

of the internal

14:21

pressure you might feel that promotes.

14:24

The temper might be related

14:26

to the fact that you don't have this release valve

14:28

because you keep things in unless they're really

14:30

big.

14:31

It's possible during therapy. The

14:34

big thing that ended up changing was me moving

14:36

out. At the time, I was still living at my parents' house,

14:38

me and my dad butt heads quite a bit, and

14:40

moving out to get out of that toxic

14:45

I guess environment and

14:47

being out with my friends for the first time made

14:50

a big difference, a very big difference.

14:53

But it was that that made the difference, not that you

14:56

learned to regulate those feelings

14:58

a little better.

14:59

Correct Becca, how much did

15:02

you know about what Jake's talking about

15:04

right now and the philosophy

15:06

of I don't want to burden people with my feelings

15:09

and the misconception

15:12

that they'll just go away if I don't talk

15:14

about them.

15:15

So initially, for the

15:18

first like year, probably

15:20

I didn't know about it, and he was

15:22

actually like very even

15:24

keeled. It would come out a little bit when

15:26

we would go to visit his family and

15:29

he would say like, oh me, my dad, but head

15:31

sometimes even nowadays,

15:33

like I'll leave like water bottles

15:36

that I've drank around the house, and

15:39

I didn't know until the past couple months that

15:41

it was something that bothered him because

15:43

he doesn't bring up those small

15:45

things. So it's

15:47

like I kind of wonder sometimes,

15:50

like what other things do I do that bother him

15:52

that he's just not saying anything about because

15:54

in my mind I was like, Oh, nothing

15:57

about me bothers this guy.

16:00

And he's laughing. So, Jake, it sounds like she's

16:02

on the right track here that maybe there are some other

16:05

things you haven't shared with her.

16:06

It would have to come up at the moment. But if

16:08

she did something, I guess I can't

16:11

think of anything, like right off the top of my head, the

16:14

water bottles is just just

16:17

a peppeeve of mine, just having

16:19

all these empty plastic water bottles the

16:23

nightstand and one day to

16:26

put something in it and on her side and

16:28

there was like six empty plastic

16:30

water bottles, and why can't they just be put

16:33

in the recycling? They're just And

16:36

it was that.

16:37

Moment that made you bring it up with her, like

16:39

it had to get to the six empty water bottles in the nightstand.

16:42

I don't really know how it was actually brought up. It

16:45

may have been somewhat recent where

16:47

I cleaned up I found a bunch of them, took them all

16:49

out and then to the recycling, came back in and

16:52

there was like three more sitting on the counter that

16:54

she had brought back. I don't

16:56

know where she pulled them out from.

16:58

The water bottles are a great e zone because

17:00

they're a small thing and we're laughing about

17:02

it, but it happens a lot,

17:05

and so that's when we talk about accumulating

17:07

these kinds of feelings. You

17:09

can see that if you count how many water

17:11

bottles are left around, how often it

17:14

adds up to much more than just a pet peeve.

17:16

And that's why when you feel

17:19

this accumulation of frustrations,

17:21

it is important to express

17:24

and address it. I do want to go to Isabella

17:26

because I want to hear Jake what

17:29

that experience was like. The fear is very

17:31

very appropriate when you're having your first

17:33

child, but were you also excited? How did

17:35

it feel when she was born, when you were

17:37

holding her. I'd like to hear about your experience.

17:40

Yeah, it was exciting. As

17:43

scary as it was, it was nice.

17:46

Had no idea what I was getting into, but she

17:49

was this perfect little thing. I have

17:52

a selfie that I took in the hospital holding

17:54

her and her eyes are open staring at

17:56

the camera, and it just yeah,

17:59

it was a nice moment. I

18:01

actually vividly remember my dad. He

18:04

was out in the waiting room for quite a few hours once

18:06

they found out that the baby was coming, and

18:09

I remember walking out Tom telling them that she

18:12

was here and just breaking down a crying.

18:15

And so these bursts of anger

18:17

toward Isabella, they weren't happening

18:20

until your son was born, or

18:22

were they also happening periodically

18:24

before he was born?

18:25

Periodically? I know

18:27

she's just a toddler, but when she knows

18:30

better, she's sometimes

18:32

will look at you and

18:34

smile, even though you tell her no, and

18:37

she will just look at you and

18:39

smile and do it anyway, and then

18:41

she just tries me nuts.

18:44

Toddler's do that because that's how

18:46

they learned. They test the limits all

18:48

the time to see what's

18:50

allowed and what isn't and it requires a lot of repetition,

18:53

so those limits have to be reinforced over

18:55

and over again. And when she looks at you and smiles,

18:57

she's almost like signaling you about

19:00

to test the limit here, So let's see what

19:02

you do. Can you give me an example,

19:04

Jake when you do have an outbust with Isabella,

19:07

what does that look like?

19:08

It's yelling? I get

19:10

loud, I get very frustrated and

19:13

say what Instead of just

19:15

saying I need you to

19:17

clean these up? I would just say that out

19:19

a much louder yelling volume.

19:23

I don't like messes, and when

19:25

there is a big mess, that frustrates

19:28

me, and I will say what

19:31

the and start

19:35

cleaning it up? Why did you do that? I

19:38

don't have a sensor, and I would

19:40

say probably what the f? Why

19:43

did you? Why did you do that? And

19:47

just very angry manner.

19:51

And how does she react when you yell

19:53

at her like that?

19:58

Sometimes she he

20:00

just gets quiet and sits there. There's

20:02

been other times where she's laughing,

20:04

which gets me even more frustrated. And

20:07

then there's other times where you

20:10

could definitely tell she feels guilty

20:12

or upset about it, and then she'll start

20:14

crying and I continue

20:17

to be mad in this situation. And then once

20:19

the situation has been resolved, whether it's

20:21

cleaning it up or whatever the case is, is

20:24

when I get out of seeing

20:27

red and take

20:30

a step back and realize she's

20:33

just a toddler, and I

20:35

will hold her and give

20:37

her a hug and tell her I'm sorry, and then

20:42

she'll it's okay.

20:45

You have this phrase rupture and repair,

20:48

and so when there's a rupture, whether that's in a relationship

20:50

between adults or between parents and children,

20:54

it's not just that a rupture happened,

20:56

But then how does it get repaired? And it sounds

20:58

like you attempt to repair it with Isabella,

21:02

But the problem is that it happens

21:04

frequently enough that she

21:07

might not trust the repair, and

21:10

she might not also be able to really

21:12

tell you how she feels in

21:15

those moments. So she says it's okay, almost

21:18

to make you feel better, but

21:22

I'm guessing that it has a bigger effect on

21:24

her and that it's probably not

21:26

so okay with her. And

21:28

so I'm wondering about when

21:30

this first started happening, and

21:33

Becca, you saw it and you

21:36

told Jake that you weren't

21:39

comfortable with it. How did those

21:41

conversations go in the very beginning,

21:43

and then how have they evolved over

21:45

time?

21:47

So in the beginning, I wouldn't

21:49

talk to him about it in front of Isabella. Sometimes

21:52

it would be like I would hear him yelling and

21:54

I would come from another room and

21:56

then help to kind of facilitate the repair part.

21:59

And then at a leader point, I would talk to Jake

22:02

and be like, hey, like that

22:04

wasn't okay. That probably really hurt

22:06

her, and he would say, you know, I

22:08

know, I'm sorry it happened.

22:11

I'm gonna work really hard and I won't.

22:14

Do it again.

22:16

What did that mean? Work really hard? You mean Jake

22:19

on your own or going to therapy on

22:21

my own?

22:22

Try to think

22:24

before reacting.

22:27

Did you ever get any tools for that from

22:30

your earlier therapy or just maybe

22:33

some research you did or a book you read or anything

22:35

like that.

22:36

No, you try counting.

22:38

Yeah, I do have a repriver so often just take

22:41

a deep breath and count to maybe ten and trying

22:44

to de escalate.

22:47

Does that help at all?

22:47

Yes?

22:48

Sometimes?

22:49

And so when you hear Becca saying this, what

22:53

is it like for you? When

22:55

Becca brings this up to you that

22:57

she's uncomfortable with the way that you're

22:59

react acting to Isabella frustrating?

23:03

I know I need to change for sure. It's

23:07

disheartening, you know, knowing that I'm

23:10

not making

23:14

I guess Becka happy, and

23:17

I know the damage it's potentially doing

23:20

to Isabella.

23:21

What is the damage you think it might be doing to Isabella.

23:24

The mental damage she might have later

23:27

in life. I have noticed recently,

23:30

I feel like, very recently, that she's

23:32

starting to have a little bit of a temper

23:36

and reacting to scenarios the

23:39

way I would react to scenarios. And

23:41

I have actually told her not to be like

23:43

me in these scenarios, to be more

23:45

like mom.

23:47

Right, But that doesn't really work when you're modeling

23:49

for her that it's okay to

23:52

react in anger because here I do it frequently.

23:55

Then you can say, oh, you shouldn't do it, But are

23:57

you actually teaching her right?

23:58

Which And this is something I've just noticed,

24:01

probably within the past two weeks. That

24:03

was a big eye opener for sure.

24:07

What happened in the last two weeks.

24:09

I personally have noticed how she's been

24:11

reacting to certain scenarios.

24:13

And what does that change for you that you noticing

24:16

that she's imitating you?

24:18

Sad to say, but that's so far nothing?

24:21

Why not?

24:23

I don't have an answer for that. I don't know.

24:26

You butt heads with your father? Did

24:29

your parents yell at you?

24:31

No? No?

24:33

No.

24:35

The reason my dad and I butt head so much is

24:37

he loves getting under people's skin, Like

24:39

if he knows something

24:42

is bothering me, he will just dig and dig

24:44

and dig until I explode.

24:46

So you're the one who explodes, but he does, yes,

24:48

and.

24:48

Then once I explode, then it's made him yelling

24:50

at each other.

24:53

So the anger management that you felt

24:56

you needed in your early twenties

25:00

when you went to a therapist? What precipitated

25:02

that? What was going on in your life where you felt like, I

25:05

really need to understand this better?

25:07

A previous relationship set

25:10

of if I didn't do something about it and see

25:12

a therapist, then she was leaving.

25:15

And did you agree that maybe

25:17

it was problematic what was going on? Or

25:19

did you just go because you didn't want to lose her? I

25:22

just want so you didn't

25:25

think it was really problematic at

25:27

the time like you do now, because

25:29

now you're saying you do.

25:32

Are you saying that now, Jake? Do you think

25:34

that it's problematic now? Yeah?

25:37

Yeah, definitely.

25:40

What's different between now and then? Before

25:42

you didn't think it was problematic, but now you do.

25:44

What's changed for you the kids? Seeing

25:47

the way Isabella is reacting

25:50

to things now it's definitely

25:52

the kids.

25:53

Does this happen with your son too. I know he's

25:56

five months, but does it happen with him at all?

25:58

Yeah, crying, crying

26:02

is just just

26:06

gets under my skin incredibly.

26:09

And Isabella was she

26:13

very rarely cried, she

26:16

was just always this happy baby.

26:18

And then Dean, he was just constantly

26:21

crying and it was definitely

26:23

frustrating.

26:26

It's interesting, Jake, because the

26:28

two things that you've mentioned that really frustrate

26:30

you are crying and messages,

26:34

and you have a baby and a toddler

26:39

and a wife with a what about a problem? So it's

26:41

really it's

26:44

a deadly combination. I'm

26:47

talking about it. But truly, it seems that if those are

26:49

the sensitivities, you know, there's

26:51

just fertile ground to be frustrated

26:54

a lot. Now, you said that you do take it

26:56

seriously. Now, you do recognize now that it's

26:59

a problem, and recently so I'll

27:01

give you that. But even in the

27:03

recent couple of weeks where it's occurred to you more,

27:06

have you thought of doing any

27:08

research, you know, Lorios, if you've read any

27:10

books or read any articles, is that

27:12

something you've thought about acquiring

27:15

tools? Because part of the problem you have is

27:17

you have no tools. You have the you know, count,

27:19

but that's it. Otherwise it's just strain

27:21

and hope it doesn't come out, which is not a tool. Have

27:24

you thought about looking for tools? Discuss

27:26

that with Becka? Perhaps over the past couple of weeks,

27:31

I have not.

27:33

I'm thinking about what these conversations might

27:35

look like between the two of you, because it sounds

27:37

like they've come up quite a bit. You're

27:40

nodding, so, yes, okay. Sometimes

27:43

when we have a lot of feelings, we

27:45

go numb. And what I'm

27:47

hearing with you, Jake is that there's almost

27:50

like something isn't going in because

27:53

I imagine that maybe you go a little bit numb.

27:56

And people are confused about

27:58

numbness. Often they think, if I go numb, I'm

28:00

not feeling anything. But numbness

28:03

isn't the absence of feelings. Numbness

28:05

is a sense of being overwhelmed by too many feelings.

28:08

We can't process all the feelings, and

28:10

we go numb. I'm wondering, Becka, from your

28:12

perspective, what is it like

28:15

when you're trying to talk to Jake about this, And

28:17

in your letter you said you've tried various ways

28:19

of setting boundaries around

28:22

it, like we should go to therapy, or you

28:24

should go to anger management, or I

28:26

might leave you. So

28:29

Jake, you're saying you go numb in these conversations

28:32

pretty much, that you don't really have

28:34

a sense of what you're feeling when she's

28:37

talking about it, and Becca,

28:39

I'm wondering for you, what is it like

28:41

when you're talking to Jake and

28:44

it seems like maybe it's

28:46

not being received

28:48

by him.

28:50

Invalidating and

28:52

really frustrating because I feel

28:54

like there

28:57

should be an emotional reaction and

28:59

that there should be some openness, and

29:02

I suspect that he is really motivated

29:05

deep down and is hurt

29:08

by the fact that he's like lashing out and potentially

29:10

damaging Isabella and

29:13

our relationship. But when I

29:15

don't get anything out of him except

29:17

for I'll try harder, it

29:20

hurts. It makes me feel like he doesn't

29:22

care. And then I

29:25

actually like didn't know about the therapy

29:27

they had gone to before, and

29:29

it's just a little hurtful to hear that, like that

29:32

person saying that she might leave would

29:34

lead to him being like, Okay, I'm going to

29:36

go get therapy, but me

29:39

saying it's not healthy for our

29:41

daughter. You need to get therapy

29:43

or we're going to leave so that I can protect her.

29:47

Resulted in like, I'm not

29:50

going to get therapy. I'm just going to try harder.

29:53

You know, I'm looking

29:55

at your face, Jake, and I see so

29:58

much coming across your face right

30:00

now. Because I was looking at your face,

30:03

there were these conflicting emotions running

30:06

through you, and they probably lasted a millisecond

30:08

because you don't want

30:10

to feel them, so you have become

30:13

very skilled at getting rid of them as soon as they show

30:15

up. And on the one hand,

30:17

I could see the pain. I could see

30:19

the pain of I'm hurting these people that I love.

30:22

I could see the pain of I

30:24

don't want to lose my wife. I don't

30:27

want to damage my daughter. And

30:30

I imagine too that there's a part of you that's

30:34

hard to acknowledge, which might be this

30:36

fantasy which I don't think you actually

30:38

want to come true. But sometimes we have fantasies

30:40

about these things when we feel really trapped and stuck,

30:44

and maybe it would be a relief, Maybe

30:47

I would get that freedom that I really wanted

30:50

because now I have two kids. And

30:53

in your letter back you were saying it really escalated

30:56

during your second pregnancy and the postpartum

31:00

Now there's really a lack

31:02

of freedom with the two young ones,

31:05

and that there's a part of you, Jake that doesn't know

31:07

what to do with this real need, and

31:10

it's a legitimate need to have some

31:12

kind of freedom, especially when this

31:14

came at a time in your life when you weren't expecting

31:17

to have to give it up. And

31:20

you're nodding, so I can see that that's true too,

31:23

And it's okay to be able to talk

31:25

about all the different ingredients

31:29

here and not just what you think

31:31

Becca wants to hear, but

31:33

what the truth of your experience is,

31:35

because I actually think that will help you to

31:38

manage your anger differently. And

31:41

so I'm wondering if we could try a little exercise here

31:43

right now where

31:45

you guys can talk about this a little bit differently.

31:48

Are you guys willing to try that?

31:51

Yeah?

31:51

Yeah, okay, So if you can face

31:54

each other and if

31:56

you can hold hands

31:58

with each other, I wonder if Becca you

32:00

can show Jake that you can

32:02

tolerate the truth

32:04

of his experience, all of it. So,

32:07

Jake, I'm wondering if you could tell Becca a

32:10

little bit about the conflict that

32:13

you're experiencing of on the

32:15

one hand, wanting to be a really good

32:17

father and a really good partner, and

32:20

on the other hand, feeling really

32:22

ripped off and feeling like

32:24

sometimes it just feels really unfair,

32:27

and sometimes you need a break, and

32:30

you don't quite know what to do with all of these

32:32

feelings, and you don't even know how to talk to Becca

32:34

about them. Can you share whatever's

32:37

going on with you and your own words with her?

32:40

And Becca, I just want you to breathe through this. You

32:42

don't need to respond, You just need to be present

32:46

so that you can open up a space between

32:48

you for the truth.

32:52

Like we've discussed,

32:59

I do have me

33:02

time ever

33:04

since the new job. I

33:06

don't ever get any time. I

33:10

love you guys, and we do

33:12

have a lot of fun together. There's

33:16

definitely times that I

33:22

definitely want to run away, There's

33:24

no doubt about it. But

33:27

I will always be

33:30

here. I don't ever want to go away.

33:32

I love you, guys.

33:34

Could you say jink a little bit about how

33:36

it feels in those moments we want

33:39

to run away?

33:44

Talking about feelings. One thing I don't

33:46

feeling.

33:47

I want to reframe that for you a little bit, because

33:51

I think that you're not comfortable doing it,

33:53

but I don't know yet whether you like doing

33:55

it, because I have a feeling that once you

33:58

get comfortable talking about your feelings, you

34:01

will like it very much because it will

34:03

help you to have a place

34:05

to go with them instead of doing what you're

34:07

doing with them now. And

34:10

Becca, watch out because he might start talking a lot

34:12

about his feelings in the future once he realizes

34:14

how much he likes it.

34:20

The times that I want to just run away, I think

34:22

of the days having

34:24

fun, what

34:27

could have been without kids, the traveling,

34:30

the adventures. I

34:35

feel like my time was

34:39

cut short.

34:42

And it.

34:44

Just wasn't ready to

34:49

give up the nights

34:52

out with the boys and the trips.

34:56

When Isabella is frustrating you and you have

34:58

those thoughts about but I

35:01

got rubbed of this. You're juxtaposing

35:04

feeling really free

35:06

and liberated and fun, but you're juxtaposing

35:09

that with feeling in that moment. What

35:12

is it trapped? Is it suffocated?

35:15

Is it stressed? Is it sad?

35:18

I'm just giving you different words, but I want you to

35:20

try and use your own words to

35:22

describe the feeling. It's

35:26

sad.

35:26

Was the one thing that you said that definitely definitely

35:30

feel sad, sorry

35:34

for myself, self pity.

35:36

I know I'm being selfish, that's

35:39

a judgment. But

35:41

going back to the feelings you've

35:43

talked about feeling sad, I'm

35:46

associating the sadness with grief. That

35:49

you're grieving this idea

35:52

of this part of your life that

35:56

you didn't get to really complete

35:58

in the way you wanted to. And

36:02

that sometimes because

36:04

you aren't able to really talk about the grief,

36:08

when something is right

36:10

in front of you that reminds you of what you lost,

36:14

that that triggers that big reaction in you. Is

36:19

that what happens for you. I

36:25

don't know what happened when I just said

36:27

that. I

36:30

was just thinking that I love you well,

36:32

not you.

36:34

But do you see how you got distracted

36:37

from the feeling? Yeah,

36:41

yeah, yes, you said sometimes

36:43

it frustrates you that when you're yelling at Isabella

36:46

she laughs. And when

36:48

I just made you a little bit uncomfortable by

36:51

asking you to think about your feelings, you

36:53

laughed. So I want you

36:55

to think about that next time you're yelling at Isabella

36:58

and she laughs. It means she's

37:00

uncomfortable. She's feeling something but

37:03

wants to get rid of it, just like you're

37:05

doing right now. So

37:08

let's go back for a second to that feeling. I

37:11

imagine that there's some grieving that

37:14

you haven't

37:16

done around

37:19

the loss of this version of

37:21

this time in your life. That would look a little

37:24

different. And

37:26

when Isabella does something, when

37:28

the baby is crying, that's

37:31

a stark reminder of what you

37:33

have lost, and

37:36

so I imagine that it brings up those feelings

37:39

of grief and loss, and

37:41

you get really angry because these are

37:44

unprocessed feelings of grief and loss. So

37:49

when you said sad, I can see

37:51

that because that's grief. That's the sadness.

37:55

So you're nodding to that. Does that resonate

37:57

with you?

37:58

Yes?

37:59

Yes, Jake.

38:02

I think part of what blocks you from talking

38:06

to Becca about these feelings about

38:08

feeling the loss, about feeling sad

38:11

is what you said afterwards, Well, that feels

38:13

selfish. And I'm

38:15

wondering if you realize

38:18

that Becca must be having some of the same feelings

38:21

because her days

38:24

of independence were also cut

38:27

short in that way. Has it occurred

38:29

to you that these might be feelings

38:31

she's having as well to some degree,

38:35

No, it.

38:35

Did not, and they might not be exactly the same

38:37

feelings, but she probably has her own experience

38:40

of parenthood where

38:43

it's very challenging, especially

38:45

if she's still in medical school

38:48

or doing residency or starting

38:50

out. Becca, can you talk

38:53

to Jake a little bit about the

38:55

various experiences you've had as

38:58

a new parent.

39:03

Yeah, So, in Isabella

39:05

I was born, I

39:07

had this idea of kind of the mom. I was

39:10

going to be a super mom, like

39:13

that I could handle residency and I

39:15

could be this great mom and do

39:18

both things one hundred percent. And

39:21

it's been tough realizing that, like there

39:24

is a version of myself in residency

39:27

and like at work that I could

39:29

have been if I

39:31

didn't have kids, and

39:34

like a level of devotion I could have thrown myself in.

39:38

And at the same time, like if I didn't

39:40

have residency or commitment to like this line

39:42

of work, there's a version of myself that, like

39:44

a mom version of myself I could be for Isabella

39:47

and for Dean, and kind

39:49

of feeling like I'm always falling short in

39:51

both places. That's been

39:54

been really tough.

39:57

Jake, what is it like for you to hear that

39:59

she also struggles with imagining

40:02

these different versions of her life if

40:06

she didn't have kids, how she would

40:08

perform at work, if she didn't have work,

40:11

how she would be as a parent. Did

40:13

you know that you had that in common, these fantasy

40:16

lives that you think about sometimes, No,

40:20

I didn't know.

40:23

I want you to be happy. So it's definitely

40:27

very sad to hear that you

40:30

also have I guess this conflict

40:33

or battle of what could be?

40:36

Is it also a little bit of a relief to

40:39

know that both of

40:41

you, like many new parents,

40:43

have struggled.

40:45

Yeah. Yes, most

40:48

new parents have moments where they wish

40:51

there was an eject button that they could

40:53

smick because it's just so

40:56

much and it's not unusual

40:59

and doesn't mean they don't love their kids.

41:01

It just means it can be really overwhelming.

41:04

And the thing, Jake, is that most

41:07

of the feelings that you're described being are normative.

41:10

There's nothing unusual about

41:12

them, especially when a pregnancy is unplanned.

41:16

But I think there's a way in which you feel that

41:19

you shouldn't have these feelings, or it's selfish

41:21

of you to have these most natural

41:23

of thoughts. And

41:26

so I'm glad you say that you feel

41:28

this relief to hear that Beca has her

41:30

version of those feelings,

41:33

as do most parents, and

41:35

therein is the benefit of sharing

41:37

your feelings. You get to find out that

41:41

your partner has similar ones and

41:43

that there's something that actually unites you in

41:46

these feelings rather than divides. You're

41:48

not ding I'm saying that, But is that how

41:50

it feels to you? Yes?

41:53

Yeah?

41:55

Becca? Can you tell Jake what it was

41:57

like to hear all of that from him earlier?

42:00

Refreshing? So I

42:03

feel like it's a treat whenever I get to hear kind

42:05

of like that deep of stuff from you.

42:08

Did you feel that he was selfish when you heard

42:10

that or what was your impression of his

42:13

fantasy of sometimes wanting to hit

42:15

the check button as guy said.

42:19

I didn't think it was selfish. I could like identify

42:21

with it kind of like mirrored

42:23

like feelings that I've had before. And

42:26

I feel like, you know, Jake

42:29

would be somebody safe that I could talk to that

42:31

about not have to worry about being judged,

42:34

And I'm glad to

42:36

know that he can say that to me, that

42:38

we're both feeling that sometimes.

42:41

Jake, have you ever shared this kind of feeling with

42:43

anybody, not just about having

42:46

kids, but something that felt really shameful

42:48

to you, or something that made you feel not

42:50

good about yourself.

42:52

I don't think so.

42:53

So this is a new experience.

42:56

Yeah, yes, I think

42:58

part of what might hold you back, Jake,

43:00

is quite quite basic

43:02

in what it is, and I think

43:04

that is that you have trouble, like many

43:07

people, identifying

43:10

what you feel, but specifically putting

43:12

a name to it. It

43:15

was difficult for you to come

43:17

up with those names because it's

43:20

a mush of feelings. You know you're feeling

43:22

something, but you're feeling it in your chest and

43:24

your throat and your shoulders and your stomach

43:27

and you it's difficult to tell which is which

43:29

and what is what. But

43:31

the more practice you have naming those feelings,

43:34

the more fluent you get

43:36

at being able to do that. And I think

43:38

that it's one of the things

43:40

that's been holding you back that you just worry

43:43

that you don't have the words. You might

43:45

not be able to identify exactly what

43:47

you're feeling, but even if you can, it's hard

43:50

to put words.

43:51

Yeah, you nailed it, not

43:54

having the words. What you just

43:56

said was perfect, Becca.

43:59

How confident do you feel with your ability

44:01

to name your feelings, identify

44:04

them, speak about them, label

44:06

them.

44:08

I feel very comfortable. I

44:11

know some people for kids they want them to be like

44:13

very smart, so they'll work with them on like math

44:17

and letters and stuff. But for

44:19

me, it's like identifying emotions.

44:22

So with Isabella, like she can tell

44:25

you why she's feeling how she's feeling.

44:28

So what does Isabella say after

44:30

these incidents happen where

44:33

Jake is angry with her? Does

44:35

she talk to you Becca or does she talk

44:37

to you Jake about what

44:40

she feels? Does she have

44:42

the vocabulary to do that? I

44:45

would say yes, what does she actually say?

44:48

She knows when I'm

44:50

upset with work, and

44:54

she will come over and actually tell

44:57

me how I'm feeling. Right, See,

44:59

you're up set, daddy, maybe a hug

45:01

will make you feel better, and she'll give

45:04

me a hug.

45:05

And on the one hand, that's very cute

45:07

because she's little, and it also shows

45:10

empathy. But it's

45:12

also possible that she does that because she knows

45:14

that when Daddy is upset, Daddy

45:17

can get really mad. Yeah,

45:20

and so I want you to see both sides

45:23

of that. That she may feel like she needs

45:25

to regulate you so

45:27

that you don't lash out at her. Makes

45:30

sense and so I'm wondering maybe

45:33

with beccasins Becca, you say you're a little bit more

45:35

fluent with feelings. Does

45:38

she ever say to you, I

45:40

was scared of daddy, or I'm

45:43

really mad at daddy, or I was really

45:45

sad? Does she ever

45:48

talk about her experience of being yelled

45:51

at with you?

45:52

Yeah, all three of those. She

45:55

usually doesn't spend a lot of time talking about

45:57

it, but she'll like, I

46:00

was sad when Daddy yelled at me, and I don't know why

46:02

he yelled at me. And we'll kind of talk

46:04

about, oh, this

46:06

is where Daddy is coming from, and this is where

46:08

you were coming from, and you

46:11

know, daddy's taking some space right now because

46:13

that's how he calms down

46:15

to feel better or what would feel good for you. And

46:19

then I'll end up telling Jake

46:22

how Isabella is feeling, and then he'll

46:25

go and do the like repair work you mentioned earlier.

46:29

Do you ever say to Isabella that even

46:32

though Daddy was upset, that it's not okay

46:34

that he yelled at her.

46:38

I do, but I don't know how

46:40

much of that gets through. And

46:43

I'll tell her like, she's not responsible

46:45

for Daddy getting mad, and but

46:48

she's still a good kid, and everybody gets mad.

46:50

Sometimes there's another way to deal with

46:53

her anger when we get mad, that

46:55

we can use a different voice to express what

46:57

we're upset about.

46:59

I'll have to keep that in my toolbox to

47:02

say next time, Jake.

47:05

Now that you're seeing how

47:07

much of an impact this has

47:09

on Isabella, not only now, but might

47:12

have on her as she grows

47:14

up, I'm

47:17

wondering when Becka says, hey,

47:20

we could go to therapy, or you could do some

47:22

anger management, or even

47:25

I don't know if we can stay if this is going

47:27

to go on, because like all three things have

47:29

happened, What

47:33

do you think is keeping you from

47:36

doing something that might be helpful, not just for

47:38

the other people, but mostly

47:41

for you.

47:44

Lazy? If I want to put in the

47:46

work.

47:47

I don't think people are really lazy.

47:51

I think that people avoid things and

47:53

then they look like they're lazy. So I'm

47:55

gonna say it a different way. Why

47:57

are you avoiding dealing with this given

48:00

how high the stakes are and

48:03

how.

48:03

Long you've been dealing with it.

48:07

I keep telling myself that I can fix

48:09

it myself, but you know that.

48:11

That's not been the case. So

48:15

that's again a way that we avoid as we lie

48:17

to ourselves. It's really easy to tell

48:19

ourselves what we want to hear, so

48:21

we can avoid doing the thing that we

48:24

need to do. I have a

48:26

theory about why you might be

48:28

avoiding this, and

48:31

that's because of that conflict we were talking about

48:33

earlier between the part of you that feels

48:35

ripped off and the part of you that wants to be a

48:39

part of this family. And

48:43

I think that there's a part

48:45

of you that isn't even in your

48:47

awareness, that

48:49

feels like if I go deal with this,

48:53

then I

48:55

am giving in to this life,

48:57

and I don't get to hold on to any part of that other

48:59

life life. At

49:02

least when I'm acting out, that

49:04

part of my life is alive, and

49:11

I want to suggest that there might be other ways

49:14

to keep that other part of your life alive

49:18

and also do things

49:20

in your life that might

49:24

give you more balance.

49:26

I know within the next few months things

49:30

are going to get significantly better. We get to move

49:32

back home with all of our friends and family.

49:35

Where we are now we have no support systems.

49:38

We'll have grandparents only fifteen

49:40

minutes away instead of two hours away, friends

49:43

only five ten minutes away instead two

49:45

hours away and I

49:49

already know the

49:52

job I'm now. I am resigning

49:55

from this position because it's just not

49:57

healthy having our friends and

49:59

family and going back to the

50:01

job that I enjoyed doing a

50:05

lot of that will change.

50:06

It's definitely will And being without

50:09

a support system is specially

50:11

difficult when you have two young kids and

50:13

a newborn. But Jake, I wanted

50:15

to offer you another theory about

50:19

why you might not have sort

50:22

help.

50:24

Well.

50:24

Number One, you did in the past, and

50:27

it doesn't sound like you walked out with a lot

50:29

of tools from that experience.

50:32

And a lot of times when people and especially

50:35

men have issues with anger management,

50:38

they think that they just need to

50:40

learn to hold it in better,

50:43

that they just need to get that better

50:45

cork that will stuff it in and

50:48

then it won't come out. And right now

50:50

you don't know how to get a better cork.

50:53

It's very difficult to understand

50:56

a nonlinear relationship between

50:59

talking about your feelings of frustration,

51:02

loss of the bachelorhood. How is

51:04

that related to you

51:06

know, me having the temper or keeping

51:09

it in about the water bottles or the messes

51:12

you know? And I think that part

51:14

of what makes you hesitate is you just

51:17

don't understand or know what

51:19

possible tools can people give me that will actually

51:22

help me other than me just needing the willpower

51:25

to not explode. And

51:27

I'm wondering if that's something that's going on with

51:29

you that you just don't quite know

51:32

what that help could even be, or that doesn't quite

51:34

make sense to you, And so it

51:36

feels it will just come down to me needing to not and

51:38

I'm trying to not anyway, So what

51:41

else can I do?

51:42

Yeah, I can definitely relate

51:44

with that, especially

51:47

the core scenario. That's

51:50

how I feel like I just need to try harder

51:52

to suppress the anger back

51:55

up.

51:55

You've talked about thinking

51:59

you don't know how long you can keep going in

52:01

this situation. Where

52:05

are you with that right now?

52:10

I feel conflicted because

52:13

I want to believe that, like once

52:15

we move back and there's

52:17

more balance, that everything

52:20

will get better. But I feel

52:23

this like ambivalence

52:25

because for me, I want

52:28

to stay with Jake and I want us to be a family

52:30

and be together forever, and

52:35

I'm happy, But

52:37

then as a mother seeing

52:40

the impact that it has on Isabella, it

52:43

makes me feel like to do

52:45

what's best for her in

52:48

the times when the anger does get pretty

52:50

bad that it'd be better if,

52:53

like Jake was just like a

52:55

part time parent. And

52:58

I feel like those two parts of me

53:00

fight a lot.

53:03

Can I ask you, Jake, if we flashed

53:05

forward several

53:07

decades, Isabella

53:10

and Dean are really

53:13

struggling in their lives. They're

53:16

struggling with how they feel about themselves.

53:19

They're struggling and then their friendships and

53:21

they're romantic relationships. They

53:24

may be numbing themselves with certain

53:27

things like drugs or

53:29

alcohol. Maybe

53:31

they are

53:34

able to tell you you hurt

53:37

us constantly when

53:40

we were growing up. How would you feel

53:42

about your life choices several

53:45

decades on that were the case.

53:48

Horrible?

53:49

Do you understand that that's the potential path you're

53:51

on?

53:53

I do now, So,

54:00

Becca and Jake, we have some advice

54:03

for you, and it's in several parts. Part

54:06

one is this. There's this wonderful

54:08

tool that we love called the

54:10

feelings Wheel or the emotions

54:13

Wheel, and it's just that it's a wheel

54:16

with a lot of different emotions on

54:18

it. We'd like you to print one out. They're

54:20

very easy to find online, and

54:22

we'd like you every evening when you have literally

54:25

five minutes each of you take turns.

54:27

Jake would like you to start and just

54:29

talk about your day and name at least

54:32

five feelings that correspond to

54:35

your narrative. You don't

54:38

have to know them ahead of time. You just look at the wheel

54:40

when you know what you're feeling inside but you can't

54:42

articulate it. You look at the wheel, and just

54:44

when I gave you multiple shows, you said,

54:46

yes, this one, Yes, this one, that's how the wheel

54:49

functions. You look at it and go, oh, right, it's this.

54:51

But would like you every day to have five minutes

54:54

where each of you just talk about each other's

54:56

days, using and naming your

54:58

feelings. So that's the first

55:01

one. The second assignment we giveing

55:03

you is, Jake, we want

55:05

you to google two

55:07

articles about the

55:09

effects of yelling at your kids and

55:13

find it from reputable sources the

55:16

Mayo Clinic, WebMD, and

55:18

we'd like you to read just a couple of short articles

55:20

and then tell Becca what you've learned from

55:23

them, so that you can have a conversation and have discussions

55:25

about the impact of yelling at

55:28

your kids. So that's not something you're ignoring, that

55:30

you're really talking about as

55:32

you're trying to control the anger what is the

55:34

impact of yelling at your kids at young ages,

55:39

And we think.

55:40

That that'll give you a good foundation for the

55:42

next exercise, which

55:45

is that Becca, we would like you to

55:48

write a letter, as if it's decades

55:50

in the future, from Isabella

55:53

and Dean to

55:56

Jake about

56:00

what their lives are like and what the

56:02

effect of this yelling

56:05

has had on them if it continues the

56:07

way that it does, and we're going to imagine for this letter that

56:09

it did. And

56:12

please don't try to protect his feelings, because

56:15

Isabella and Dean will not try

56:18

to protect his feelings. Kids

56:20

who are yelled

56:23

at will be very

56:25

clear, usually later in life, about

56:28

the impact that it had on them. And

56:30

Jake, what we would like you to do is write a letter back

56:32

when you get that letter to

56:35

your children who are now adults, about

56:39

what you wish you had

56:41

done differently if indeed you do, and

56:45

really be open and honest,

56:47

just as open and honest as you were with Becca

56:50

in the conversation today about other feelings.

56:53

We want you to be really open and honest with them about

56:56

how it feels to you, knowing that this

56:59

is how they feel as adults,

57:02

given that the yelling didn't stop. And

57:05

the good news about this is it's not actually

57:08

happening in the future. You have a chance

57:10

to do things differently should you so choose.

57:15

And the last

57:18

part is that we

57:21

would like you to learn

57:23

a little bit more about

57:26

anger management because

57:28

it sounds like you don't really

57:30

have tools that have worked for you. So

57:33

we would like you to join

57:36

an anger management group. And I know that

57:38

your time is limited, so there are

57:40

also lots of online options where

57:42

you can just zoom into the group, and

57:44

we would like you to give it a try to see

57:47

what it's like to hear other

57:49

people talk about their experiences,

57:51

because you're definitely not alone in this. Lots

57:54

of people had modeling where they didn't know

57:56

there was another way to manage their feelings,

57:58

and often they couldn't I identify their feelings,

58:01

which is something that you noticed in our

58:03

conversation today that sometimes,

58:06

like I said, you just don't

58:08

know what the words are for the feelings. And

58:11

the one thing that's really easy to access

58:13

is anger. So if we can get

58:15

underneath that, you

58:17

might be able to have

58:20

some tools that will be helpful for you and maybe

58:22

that'll help you take away some of the shame around it.

58:25

Realize you're not alone, and then

58:27

get some really good information about what

58:29

might be helpful.

58:32

Okay, thank

58:35

you, Marian guy.

58:42

Some couples can't do what they did, which is talk

58:45

about something that's really difficult and

58:48

then still stay connected. And they

58:50

were still holding hands even

58:52

when some of the content was difficult

58:55

to hear. They

58:57

stay present for each other. And

59:00

I think the challenge for Jake is really

59:04

the dissociating that he does. He

59:07

knows intellectually that what he's doing

59:09

is damaging to his children, and

59:12

then he comes up with all kinds of reasons

59:14

why it's not a priority for

59:17

him. And I think that when he gets more

59:19

in touch with his feelings, and I think really

59:22

not being able to avoid what the

59:24

future might look like. Because when I

59:26

brought that up at the end, he finally

59:28

said, yeah, I get it. We don't

59:31

know if he really gets it, but it was the first

59:33

time that he acknowledged that.

59:34

He does right.

59:35

And I also agree that he kind of knows

59:37

intellectually that it's a problem. But that's why

59:39

we gave in that research assignment, because

59:41

he really needs to be clear that it is

59:44

a problem. It's not a maybe, it's not a oh

59:46

you know, I was okay somehow.

59:48

Yeah, it's not just the tone when

59:50

we talk to our kids, is the content as well,

59:53

and he was saying that he says what the f to her,

59:55

and as parents we all have times when it wasn't

59:57

our finest parenting moment. When

1:00:00

it's consistent in the way that they're describing,

1:00:03

it's really important for him to understand the

1:00:05

effect that it's going to have on his children,

1:00:07

and that it is having on his children.

1:00:15

You're listening to dea therapists. We'll

1:00:17

be back after a short break.

1:00:30

So, guy, we heard from Becca and Jake, and I'll be curious

1:00:33

to hear how that went for them.

1:00:36

Hey louri Hey guy, this is Beca and Jake.

1:00:38

Hello.

1:00:40

We're getting back in touch. Just to update you on

1:00:42

the assignments you gave us last week for.

1:00:45

The feelings chart. We went over

1:00:47

that every night and I feel

1:00:49

like it sparked a lot of good conversations.

1:00:53

Yeah, I feel like it added some depth

1:00:55

to our conversations. And I

1:00:58

did notice that Jake just kind

1:01:00

of in normal day to day conversations talked

1:01:02

more about feelings, especially other than just anger

1:01:05

and frustration. So I can already

1:01:07

see that paying off for the

1:01:09

second one, which was looking up

1:01:11

the effects of yelling, but I feel like Jake

1:01:15

it was difficult for him to confront that. I

1:01:17

felt like he avoided it most of the week and it

1:01:20

lead to some nagging on my end. He

1:01:22

handed up finding a really good series

1:01:25

on YouTube that talked about

1:01:27

it, and I think it really piqued

1:01:29

his interest to keep looking for more. So he suggested

1:01:32

doing this five day stop Yelling at your Kid's

1:01:34

parenting challenge. So we're starting that feeling

1:01:37

optimistic about that. For

1:01:40

the next assignment, where I was writing

1:01:42

the letter from Isabella and

1:01:44

Dean's perspective, it was

1:01:47

challenging because there were so many different

1:01:49

effects that the yelling

1:01:51

can have, so kind of encompassing

1:01:54

everything in that was a little difficult.

1:01:57

So I did send that over to Jake, and

1:02:01

I think it was tough for him to read and

1:02:03

might not have been the most impactful,

1:02:06

Like I wonder if he needs something a little more concrete

1:02:09

and tangible.

1:02:11

It was difficult for me to put myself

1:02:14

in the headspace of pretending

1:02:16

to be in the future and

1:02:19

it didn't really resonate for me. As

1:02:22

for the anger management classes, I'm not

1:02:24

quite ready to jump into that yet, and

1:02:27

I know I need to find coping mechanisms,

1:02:30

which led me to a

1:02:33

YouTube channel, so

1:02:35

I'm going to start there and see how

1:02:37

that works for me.

1:02:40

Overall, this has created some moments

1:02:42

of conflict and a relationship that weren't there

1:02:44

before, but I feel like it's

1:02:47

definitely an area where we can grow, and

1:02:49

the couple of things that have happened since

1:02:51

then, it's really helped me be more

1:02:54

empathetic to see where Jake's coming from

1:02:56

and where his mind might be at because

1:02:58

I have a better idea now. One

1:03:02

of the quotes that really stuck out to us in the

1:03:04

parenting resource we were looking at was

1:03:07

by Maya Angelo, and it

1:03:09

goes, do the best you can until you know better,

1:03:12

than when you know better, do better. So

1:03:15

I feel like at this point we're just getting

1:03:17

to a place where we're building our knowledge and hopefully

1:03:19

that'll lead to doing better in

1:03:21

the future. Thank

1:03:24

you again for all of your help and for

1:03:26

taking the time to work with us on this.

1:03:28

Thank you bye well.

1:03:34

That reinforced a feeling I had

1:03:37

during the session that Jake

1:03:40

was really starting from square

1:03:43

one when it came to this understanding of

1:03:46

how yelling at the kids can impact

1:03:48

them how his being

1:03:50

in touch with his own emotions or

1:03:53

being able to express them or not is impacting

1:03:55

him. He really didn't see

1:03:57

that connection at all, and now he's

1:04:00

odd thing to create some kind of connective

1:04:02

tissue in his mind between these things, primarily

1:04:04

by using the feelings shot. But

1:04:08

I am a little disappointed

1:04:10

that he didn't take more

1:04:12

ownership of the anger and take

1:04:14

more ownership of some of these tasks and really

1:04:17

dive in.

1:04:18

I think when we do these sessions, we

1:04:21

want to hold the hope for

1:04:24

their growth, and at the same

1:04:26

time it can be

1:04:28

disappointing. And I

1:04:30

think in this case, when other people are affected,

1:04:33

like children, it's really

1:04:35

hard to have patience

1:04:38

for the change to happen because you

1:04:40

know that as this is going on, this

1:04:43

is really affecting the children.

1:04:45

And I think Becca is perhaps

1:04:47

in a little bit of denial too, because

1:04:50

she said this week brought up some conflict

1:04:53

between them that she didn't know was there, and

1:04:56

yet it seemed like it had been

1:04:58

there or she wouldn't have written that letter

1:05:00

to us. And I noticed too that

1:05:03

she did most of the talking for Jake, and

1:05:06

so it seemed like she was sort of driving

1:05:08

this and hoping

1:05:11

that something would change, but it's really going

1:05:13

to have to come from a place of Jake wanting

1:05:16

to change. And there's something going on with Jake where

1:05:18

he's sort of compartmentalizing things

1:05:21

where he said I couldn't really get into the space

1:05:23

of that letter from the future. He's always

1:05:25

got a reason that something

1:05:28

isn't going to work in terms of helping

1:05:30

him to grow and change

1:05:32

in this area. And I

1:05:34

noticed too that they sometimes laugh through this,

1:05:37

and I know it's uncomfortable laughter, but

1:05:39

it feels like something is going to need to happen,

1:05:41

not just with Jake but also with Becca where

1:05:43

they're really going to have to have a reckoning around

1:05:46

this behavior has to stop and what are we

1:05:49

going to do because I don't think that they're really acting

1:05:51

with the urgency that this deserves.

1:05:54

I agree, But I also think,

1:05:56

because I said that he's starting from such an early

1:05:58

point that if he woms up to it, if

1:06:00

he gets interested in these YouTube

1:06:02

videos that he's watching, that a curiosity

1:06:05

can build that might get him there, But

1:06:07

that will depend on him doing it independently

1:06:10

and really owning it at some point, rather than Becca

1:06:12

just pushing him.

1:06:13

And I think the other pieces that when we're seeing

1:06:15

a couple, it's generally two people

1:06:18

have an issue, So it might look

1:06:20

like one person has an issue, but somebody else

1:06:22

is colluding with the issue, and here it's

1:06:25

Becca. Becca really is afraid

1:06:27

to take a stand, and while it's

1:06:29

important that she have empathy for whatever he

1:06:31

might be dealing with, she's not setting

1:06:34

boundaries. And I think

1:06:36

that it's really important for Becca to

1:06:38

look into herself. Becca, if you're listening,

1:06:41

to think about what boundaries

1:06:43

you want to set for yourself, because

1:06:46

it takes two to work

1:06:48

on a problem like this.

1:06:55

Next week we're going to check in with Nicole

1:06:57

from season two to hear how she's doing.

1:07:00

Later, she was basically saying,

1:07:03

I can't be with him anymore. I don't even

1:07:05

like him anymore.

1:07:06

I don't think i'm in love with him. I don't even want to

1:07:08

have sex with them anymore. If

1:07:10

you're enjoying our podcast, don't forget

1:07:12

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1:07:15

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1:07:17

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1:07:19

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1:07:21

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1:07:25

If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us.

1:07:27

Email us at Laurie and Guy

1:07:30

at iHeartMedia dot com. Our

1:07:32

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1:07:35

We're produced and edited by Josh

1:07:37

Fisher. Additional editing support

1:07:39

by Helena Rosen, John Washington

1:07:42

and Zachary Fisher. Our interns

1:07:45

are Ben Bernstein, Emily Gutierrez

1:07:47

and Silver Lifton. And special

1:07:49

thanks to our podcast Fairy Godmother

1:07:52

Katie Curic. You can't wait to see

1:07:54

you at our next session. Dear Therapist

1:07:57

is a production of iHeartRadio

1:08:06

Fish Food