0:04

Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Lori Gottlieb.

0:07

I'm the author of Maybe You Should Talk to Someone,

0:09

and I write the Dear Therapist column for The Atlantic.

0:12

And I'm Guy Wench. I wrote Emotional

0:14

First Aid, and I write the Dear Guy called

0:16

Him for Ted And this is der

0:18

Therapists. This week, a man

0:20

cares for his ex girlfriend's dog and his

0:22

current partner is concerned about what that means

0:25

for their relationship. I said, you

0:27

know, it's really funny. I have never

0:29

met this person, and I I'm

0:31

sorry to use the word hate, but I hate her already

0:34

because she is in the middle of

0:36

our relationship. Listen in and maybe learn

0:38

something about yourself in the process. Hey,

0:44

just a note before we start. Dear Therapist

0:47

is for informational purposes only, does

0:49

not constitute medical advice, and

0:51

is not a substitute for professional medical

0:53

advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always

0:56

seek the advice of your physician, mental

0:58

health professional, or other qualified

1:00

health provider with any questions you may

1:02

have regarding a medical condition. By

1:05

submitting a letter, you are agreeing to let

1:07

i Heeart Media use it in part or

1:09

and full, and we may edit it for length

1:11

and or clarity. Hey

1:15

Laurie, Hey guy.

1:17

So I hear this week's letter has something

1:19

to do with a dog. It

1:21

does, indeed, apparently to his

1:23

company, and a dog makes it a crowd. Let

1:26

me read you the letter, Dear

1:29

therapists. I started dating

1:31

a guy a few months ago, in fact, one

1:33

week before strict quarantine measures. The

1:36

beautiful part about this lockdown is we talk

1:38

a lot. Does I feel like I've gotten to

1:40

know him on a deeper level more quickly than I

1:42

might have otherwise. We have

1:44

great emotional and physical chemistry. We

1:46

read together, right together, cooked together,

1:49

great conversations, etcetera. It's been

1:51

wonderful. There is, however, an

1:53

unresolved issue from his past. He

1:55

takes care of his ex girlfriend's dog

1:57

whenever she's out of town. They maintain

1:59

a close friendship, but because of COVID

2:01

nineteen, she's been somewhat willingly stranded in

2:03

another part of the country, and he's been dog

2:06

sitting formost three months. Now. Here's

2:08

the catch. This is the same woman whom

2:10

he cheated on his ex wife with over five years

2:12

ago. As I've learned more about him

2:14

in their history, I can't seem to get past

2:16

why they still maintain a close friendship, and

2:19

I get annoyed at his inability to return the

2:21

dog. He knows how I feel. I believe

2:23

the dog represents a connection he subconsciously

2:26

doesn't want to let go of, and that he's

2:28

not giving himself time to heal from their breakup,

2:30

which was only last June, with a one night

2:32

stand in October. They were friends before

2:35

he got married and lost touch, but he described

2:37

the romantic relationship as toxic. It

2:39

was on again, off again. She never

2:41

wanted to commit. She is someone that his friends

2:44

and family think is bad news. He

2:46

assures me this person is in his past, but I

2:48

know that their relationship was intense, passionate,

2:51

and one in which he was usually hurt

2:53

or dumped because he didn't want it to end. Although

2:56

he believes he can still be friends with his ex, I'm

2:58

not so sure. After many serious

3:01

conversations, he is clear that the dog has

3:03

to go and has been empathetic to my feelings,

3:05

but has also asked me what I think he should do regarding

3:08

their friendship. He knows that I don't want to tell

3:10

him what to do because I don't want to be the source

3:12

of blame later on, but I also wanted

3:14

to come from him. Am I'm reading too much

3:16

into my feelings about what this dog represents,

3:20

Sincerely, Amy.

3:23

So it's really interesting to me guy that

3:25

this is a letter that centers

3:27

around a dog, because I don't think people

3:30

realize that dogs come up so much

3:32

in therapy because of the

3:35

importance that our pets

3:37

play in our lives. And then also what

3:39

happens when there's a breakup,

3:42

and like having a child with somebody,

3:44

what happens to the animals

3:47

that were involved, even tangentially

3:49

in that relationship. Dogs are

3:52

family members for most people, so

3:55

it's not a simple thing about return the

3:57

dog. And also, if it's COVID,

4:00

dog might actually be playing a

4:02

important role in this guy's life. So I'm

4:04

not even sure what the level of sacrifice that

4:06

is in terms of giving up the dog. And I think

4:08

in this case, the dog is threatening because

4:11

it represents that tie that this man

4:13

still has to his ex girlfriend, and so she wants

4:15

that tie severed, both the dog to

4:17

be returned and perhaps the friendship even

4:20

to be severed. So this is a letter about a dog

4:22

that's actually not about a dog. Right. He

4:24

says that he's willing to not

4:26

take care of the dog but at the same time he's

4:28

asking her if

4:30

he should maintain the friendship. It's almost

4:32

like he's abdicating responsibility for making

4:35

that decision himself. Juvlate,

4:38

dogs come into your sessions. I

4:40

do, and I'm not that

4:43

particular about why they have to bring the dog.

4:45

I just love dogs, and so I

4:47

allow dogs. Cats

4:49

not so much because they tend to walk on my desk and

4:51

spill things. But but

4:54

dogs and babies by all means, bring them on. This

4:58

is the atherapists. Thanks for listening.

5:09

You're listening to dear therapist from my Heart Radio.

5:13

So let's go talk to Amy. So

5:15

Hi Amy, Hi Amy, Great to meet

5:17

you. Hi guys, Hi Lori Amy.

5:19

I'm wondering if you could tell us a little bit more about

5:22

the relationship. So we met

5:24

at the gym and then we started talking.

5:26

So we've been seeing each other for

5:28

four months now, yeah, I'm going in five months

5:32

and starting at the beginning of the relationship,

5:34

did you know about this X and what

5:36

were those conversations? Like, I

5:39

did not know about the X. What

5:41

he did make clear to me at the very beginning

5:43

and literally in our first conversation was

5:46

he mentioned his kids, Like, oh, I have to

5:48

go do something with my kids, and and

5:50

so I think he wanted to make it very clear. But there was an ex

5:52

wife and in his life, and he had kids. But

5:55

the only reason that the X

5:58

came up initially was because is

6:00

of the dog hair in his apartment

6:03

and the dog I mean, sorry, never

6:05

mind the dog here in his

6:07

apartment. I said, who's

6:09

who's dog in this? And it was like one

6:11

of those sizes like, well, this is

6:14

not my dog, but this is a

6:16

friend's dog. And then little by little

6:18

bits and pieces of information, this

6:20

friend was actually more than a friend. He's

6:22

never really called her next girlfriend.

6:25

I think they've just had this on again, off

6:27

again relationship. So

6:30

as time goes by, I always get little snippets

6:33

of information that come out for whatever

6:35

reason. Well for

6:37

whatever reason is actually important, right, he said

6:39

he needs to heal. So how much

6:41

as he said about the fact that he was truly

6:44

heartbroken after this on and again off again

6:46

thing was over. You

6:49

know what, He's very open. But sometimes

6:52

when we're in a moment, we're having a glass of wine

6:54

and reflect on our relationship and

6:56

how much he enjoys our connection. And

6:59

I think it's always like the reference

7:01

is what he's experiencing now, which

7:03

he has never experienced before. You

7:05

said that he hasn't experienced this before,

7:08

So you're saying, not just in that other relationship,

7:10

but he didn't experience this kind of

7:12

whatever good feelings that he's having right

7:15

now and the level of comfort and connection.

7:17

He didn't experience that in his marriage either.

7:20

Correct. Correct. Yeah, he's

7:22

he's been very very open about that. He's the type of

7:24

person that believes in partnership. Last

7:26

night we were I was going to cook at

7:28

dinner and he had this radio

7:30

show that he had to go on and he's like, you

7:33

know, I'll just cancel the radio shows, Like, don't cancel you,

7:35

you do your hour show up while I start the cooking.

7:38

And so after he said, you know that to me

7:40

is such a level of partnership, like

7:42

give and take. So he always reflects

7:45

on things that he really likes about our relationship

7:47

that he never had before. And yet there's

7:50

this feeling that you have a trust

7:52

issue with. Correct, And

7:54

so tell us where that comes from

7:57

on your end with somebody who is that expressive

7:59

and and actually saying all

8:02

those reassuring things. Where

8:04

that comes from for you? Yeah?

8:06

So you know the trust issue. So

8:09

he said that he in

8:11

the past in order to avoid conflict

8:14

or in order to avoid an argument if

8:16

you were late at work, but you don't avoid of conflict you said,

8:18

oh, you know, I had to because something of the grocery store, like little

8:20

lies. He used to tell

8:23

a lot of little lies. And when

8:25

he with with this X, he

8:27

was unfaithful. So

8:30

when someone is open about that

8:32

with you, I think you automatically you're like, you're

8:34

telling me that you

8:37

used to lie a lot to avoid

8:39

conflict, you were unfaithful.

8:42

And he's talked about openly working

8:44

on that with a therapist. But

8:46

for me, it creates a sense of will

8:48

this person do it again? You know, if you've cheated

8:51

once, will you cheat again? You

8:53

know, if you're used to line, how how easy

8:55

is that habit to break? Have you

8:57

actually expressed to him what you just

9:00

expressed to us, which is that you

9:02

wonder how that's going to play out between

9:04

the two of you, and while he's working

9:06

on it individually, how the two of you

9:09

can create a line of communication that's

9:11

open around that issue so

9:13

that you're not wondering

9:16

whether he's lied about

9:18

the little things and what can happen in your relationship.

9:21

That can create an environment where not

9:23

only does he not feel like he has to lie, but that

9:26

you don't feel like you have to keep checking up on him.

9:29

Yeah, it's really funny that you say that, Lawer,

9:31

because we talk about trust a lot. Let's

9:34

just start with the infidelity part. I I asked

9:36

him openly. I said, I just need to

9:38

ask you. Do you believe

9:40

the infidelity on any levels? Okay?

9:43

He said, He'll go out with some of his friends and

9:45

they all take pictures of

9:47

the group of them at the restaurant and send into their

9:49

wives so that they know that they are in fact with

9:51

their friends. And I said, oh, that that just doesn't

9:53

fly with me. I want to be able to trust

9:56

you when you go. If you say you are where you are, I

9:58

don't want to check up on you. I said, that is

10:00

not the type of dynamics

10:02

that I would like to create. So his answer

10:05

was absolutely, I

10:07

don't believe in infidelity that he destroys

10:11

a relationship. He's like, it's the absolute worst

10:13

thing you can do in a relationship, he said, because

10:16

you never regained trust. Ever, it's out

10:19

the window. So I felt like that was an important conversation

10:21

to have. He has also said to me

10:24

that in his past there were only two

10:27

very significant relationships in his life.

10:29

One was was before he was married, and the

10:32

other one was this X. And he said,

10:34

those two people who he's had

10:36

a really strong bond with, he was never unfaithful

10:39

with. Can you tell us a little bit about your relationship

10:41

history, like what, I'm

10:45

thirty eight. I've had probably

10:47

four relationships and they all lasted

10:49

between two and two and three years.

10:52

When I connect with someone, I'm

10:54

I really give it a go or give it my all, not

10:57

a really casual dater type of person.

11:00

Has infidelity been a part of your relationships?

11:03

Never? I told him, if

11:05

you feel like you

11:07

want to be unfaithful, we need to have that

11:09

conversation and maybe we shouldn't

11:12

be in a relationship. How long was he married?

11:15

Six years? And he's been

11:17

divorced for just as long has he had

11:19

any other relationships since in the six

11:22

years but he's been divorced.

11:24

He's mentioned several people that he's dated,

11:27

and then inevitably he will

11:30

say that this other person has

11:32

sort of been the sort of the demise of

11:35

the relationship at some point, like she'll come back

11:37

in the picture. She reappears, and

11:39

then he doesn't give that relationship

11:42

a chance. I mean, I'm definitely the longest

11:44

relationship that he's had since he's been divorced.

11:47

You said that in all of the other relationships that

11:49

this other woman would appear and that would

11:52

be the demise of the relationship, because she

11:54

actually has appeared in your relationship

11:56

in the form of a dog. Absolutely.

11:59

And I said at the beginning

12:01

the first few months, I said,

12:04

you know, it's really funny. I have never

12:06

met this person, but I hate her already

12:08

because she is in the middle of

12:11

our relationship. Is the dog still there? Yes,

12:15

the X is going to be temporarily

12:19

relocating to the other part of the country, and

12:21

so she has to come back to the city to

12:23

move out of her apartment. By the end

12:25

of the month, she has to

12:27

be out. So he has emphatically said that this

12:30

dog has got to go by the

12:33

end of the month. You

12:35

are very clear with him that

12:37

the dog bothers you, that he shouldn't

12:40

have this dog. But you

12:42

also say that you don't want to

12:44

tell him what to do about the friendship quote unquote

12:47

with this X. And I'm struggling

12:49

to understand what's

12:52

the difference really. In other words, it's a big thing

12:54

to say to someone you cannot keep this

12:57

dog, which she's had for several months. He's

12:59

they to be living alone with the dog,

13:01

so he might have his own attachment to the dog.

13:04

Because you can get very lonely. Dogs

13:06

are wonderful company to ask

13:08

you about what the dog represents. The dog represents

13:11

the X if you feel comfortable

13:13

saying to him, this dog shouldn't be here. Why

13:15

don't you feel comfortable saying and your friendship

13:17

with this woman who keeps reappearing and

13:20

sabotaging the dates you have, she

13:22

shouldn't be in the picture either, you

13:26

know what I um? I

13:29

feel like the dog represents this woman,

13:31

But against you doubt yourself, I think, okay, does

13:34

this dog represent the woman? Is this dog

13:36

a connection? Or am I just totally

13:39

over analyzing the situation. Can

13:42

he have a friendship with this person? I mean, he has mentioned

13:44

that he's known for twenty cething years.

13:46

But I said, this is not a friend. I

13:49

said, I don't have sex with my friends

13:51

like this is. This is not a normal

13:53

friend. You know, there are times when people

13:55

are friends with their exes and it works

13:58

out just fine. Because it was relationship,

14:00

it ended, they transitioned in whatever

14:02

way to friendship. But

14:05

the difference here is that this woman has,

14:08

as he said, led to the demise of

14:10

every one of his relationships, and

14:13

that there was also a very

14:15

unhealthy aspect to

14:18

the relationship. Yeah, and you're

14:20

not able to say to him, and I'm not comfortable

14:22

with this woman with whom you have a very

14:25

complicated, unresolved

14:27

sexual relationship. Yeah,

14:30

you know what, I guess. I feel like if

14:32

I say sorry, you can't do that.

14:35

I don't want him to think that he has to hide

14:37

it if he wants to be friends with her anyway,

14:40

because he thinks he can be friends with

14:42

her. I've tried to make

14:44

suggestions based on what I've

14:46

read, saying things like I've read

14:49

that there's things that you can do, like on following

14:51

on social media, but Amy, that's so

14:53

indirect. Of the things that I

14:55

think he really appreciates about this relationship

14:58

and they think you do too, is how open you're

15:00

able to be with each other even though there

15:02

is this underlying trust issue. Why

15:05

not ask him what this friendship

15:07

means to him and why he wants to

15:09

continue this friendship and how he

15:12

imagines it will impact this

15:14

relationship. Have you

15:16

ever had that conversation with her? I

15:20

have. His answer has has

15:22

been, I am friendly

15:25

with with all of my exes in the sense that I can wish

15:27

I'm a happy birthday, but I'm friends

15:30

with all of my exits. I said, here's a difference. I don't

15:32

write them on a weekly basis. I don't keep their animals

15:34

for them when they leave on a on a trip. The

15:37

problem with this specific X she

15:40

comes across like the bad

15:42

friends you don't and your kids hanging around with, because

15:44

she's a bad influence. She's the one that all of

15:46

his friends think is no good. She's

15:48

the ones that whenever she comes back, he's

15:50

not able to withstand for some reason

15:53

her charms and ends up sleeping with

15:55

her again, even after they supposedly

15:57

break up from what wasn't a relationship.

16:00

Then in October they sleep with each other again.

16:02

In other words, he seems to not have

16:04

a great line of defense with this

16:06

lady. And I think that's the concern

16:09

that you have about her. What happens the next

16:11

time she circles around to

16:13

see what's what? This is not about staying

16:15

in touch with an X and next that keeps it on

16:18

and it's off, and it's on and it's off. And it sounds

16:20

like at her bidding reflection

16:23

on his feelings

16:25

or his inability to say no to her. Have

16:28

you expressed that to him?

16:32

You know, I don't think I have expresses what you

16:34

just said that maybe

16:39

you're vulnerable when she comes around

16:42

because you I

16:44

know that this sounds so funny. You just can't

16:46

control yourself. Okay, So this is

16:48

something important that I did share with him. My

16:51

most significant X, who is

16:53

the person that I thought I was gonna married. We dated for

16:55

for three years. Then he

16:58

ended up any new relationship, and

17:00

he would keep in touch and if we

17:02

were traveling in the same city or

17:04

something like that, we would hook up and

17:06

and it started getting unhealthy because

17:08

I always wanted to be with him, so I started

17:11

being hopeful and I would

17:13

always get hurt. So this went on for several

17:15

years, and I realized

17:18

that this person was keeping

17:20

me from meeting other people. Mr

17:23

dream Man whatever could have walked right

17:25

in front of me and I wouldn't have even seen him.

17:28

So I shared that story with him, and I told

17:30

him, I need to tell you how I

17:32

handled this situation. Because it was one of the most difficult

17:34

things that I have ever done. The

17:37

last time we saw each other, which

17:39

was a couple of years ago,

17:42

we had a great time, but then he started giving me the cold

17:44

shoulder. I wanted more, and

17:46

I texted him and I said, please

17:49

do not ever contact me

17:51

again. And

17:54

not even five minutes had passed when I

17:56

said that, and I started texting him.

17:58

What I meant by um,

18:01

what I meant by please

18:03

do not was please do not write

18:06

to me in a sexual way anymore. And I started

18:08

making excuses for myself and

18:10

it was like because you didn't. It was like,

18:12

you said, I'm going to quit the drug. Yes,

18:14

wait, just give me a little fixed to keep in my closet.

18:16

Just I didn't care. Justine. I

18:19

was like, oh my god, this this

18:21

is like a drug. Said I'm done. I

18:23

am done. And we never spoke again.

18:26

And I said, you have no idea

18:28

how difficult that was for me to

18:30

do and how empowering. But also

18:33

I didn't realize how much it was really hurting

18:35

me. So how did

18:38

he respond any Because yes, you liked

18:40

he it right up. He was like someone

18:42

that wasn't over like hit over there with a bat

18:44

he was like, Okay, I get it, and he'll

18:46

say things like that. I guess I want him

18:49

to say, I've unfollowed

18:51

her, I've deleted her, I've done

18:53

it without me giving an

18:55

ultimatum, because I think you're

18:57

also afraid that he will resort to the white line

19:00

about it and she will text him

19:02

and he will just know it's just at the grocery

19:04

store and here's a picture of me with my friends in the restaurant,

19:07

right exactly.

19:10

I think the difficult to hear is that you're

19:13

asking somebody to basically get

19:15

off his drug And

19:19

what I think you're struggling with is that

19:22

you feel like, well, I can tell him to you

19:24

quit the drugs, but if he's

19:26

not ready, it's still an addiction and

19:28

he's still going to find a way to you

19:31

know. And so that's the conversation. It's

19:34

nice that you told him about your experience because it's very

19:36

relatable, but at the

19:38

same time, it wasn't a direct

19:40

request. You're almost trying to be

19:42

his therapist, like, let me to do all these

19:44

resources, I mean, all these

19:46

ways to do it. But but like

19:49

you said in your letter, he has to want

19:51

to do it. When people are addicted to something.

19:53

There's a whole process, these stages

19:55

of change and readiness, and

19:58

he may really really

20:00

enjoy your relationship, but

20:03

he may also still be

20:06

tied to this addiction. It's

20:08

easy to give up the dog. By the way, I'm not saying

20:10

that he's not going to experience some loss giving

20:13

up the dog, but she will find a way

20:15

to insinuate herself into his life,

20:18

dog or no dog. So I don't think

20:20

he's worried that she's going to disappear if he gives

20:22

back the dog. It's

20:25

the friendship and friendship.

20:27

We're using that term very loosely. Yeah,

20:30

Amy, how close has he come to

20:33

admitting one way or the other that it is

20:36

a drug, that she is addictive,

20:38

that he is vulnerable to her. Never,

20:42

I mean, I just associate

20:44

the pattern that the behavior.

20:47

I feel like we have these cathartic

20:50

experience. Like I've said, he does this all

20:52

the time. He'll will really reflect

20:54

on a moment He's like, Wow, something I love about

20:57

us and what we do. But a lot

20:59

of times he'll he'll compliment

21:01

it with an explanation or

21:03

a comparison of why that

21:06

wasn't working in the other relationship and I'm

21:08

really kind of tired of hearing it. I

21:11

need this person to just not

21:14

be mentioned in this relationship

21:16

again. No, but that is that that is the

21:18

thing, right, because if he just said, Wow,

21:21

it's so great with you, had

21:23

such a great time, I feel so great

21:25

with you, but

21:27

I feel so great with you, and I didn't feel that way

21:30

with the drug. And you know you

21:32

also conversations so this and this

21:34

and my conversations with the drug weren't like that. It's

21:36

not nice that I'm calling at the drug, but just reference.

21:42

But I can certainly understand, like, can we

21:44

just keep it about me? Please? And you say

21:46

she keeps insinuating herself, but she

21:49

does, but he's doing the insinuating

21:52

her. And I'm not sure that

21:55

he's aware of how much this is

21:58

embedded in so much

22:00

text and subtext. But

22:03

she lives inside him in so many

22:05

ways. So if he's making those comparisons,

22:07

that means that a lot of the time she's

22:11

sitting there on his shoulder and

22:13

he's making those comparisons. There's

22:16

so many parallels between your relationship

22:18

with your ex, your current relationship

22:21

with this boyfriend, and his relationship

22:23

with his drug. I think at

22:25

the heart of all of this is that we

22:27

think that if we give an ultimatum

22:29

that somehow right, that

22:32

that's going to change the way the person feels. It might change the

22:34

way they pave. But

22:36

I think the big question is what does

22:38

it mean to be loved? And

22:42

what does it mean to love? And they think there's

22:44

a lot of confusion when there's that addictive

22:47

aspect to a relationship. Have

22:49

you thought through how the

22:51

handoff goes because

22:54

he will have to see her, had

22:56

any conversations with him? Or have you thought through how

22:59

that enough of the dog should

23:02

go? You

23:04

know, I've thought about whether I

23:07

should be there, whether I shouldn't be there.

23:10

Some days I want to be there

23:12

because I want her to

23:14

see me, and then other days

23:17

I think, you know what, You're a mature adult,

23:19

and if you want to be in this relationship,

23:22

I trust that you're going to handle this correctly.

23:24

Yeah. Yeah, I'm not really sure to be honest

23:26

with you, When we talk about

23:28

that question of his friendship with her,

23:31

does he always default to you and say what

23:33

do you think I should do? Or does he have

23:35

any thoughts of his own? What's funny is

23:37

he separates the two. He

23:39

says, we didn't work

23:42

as a relationship. So now we're friends.

23:45

But then when maybe if we have a discussion over

23:47

the dog, he'll say, yeah, okay,

23:49

I see that this is coming

23:51

in between us. So he's never

23:53

said, I see this makes you really uncomfortable,

23:56

and so I'll set a boundary

23:59

with this woman he has,

24:01

And the boundary is he doesn't reach

24:03

out, he doesn't send her photos

24:06

of the dog. That's

24:08

a that's a boundary that she doesn't know about. Correct,

24:11

Okay, so you know what I don't know. I

24:14

know that he told her he's seeing someone.

24:16

Do you know what her reaction was to to his

24:18

telling her that he seeing someone? He said that

24:21

she was happy for him,

24:23

And he has said he's like, you know what, if she met

24:26

someone, I would be happy for her. I think part

24:28

of the reason that it's hard to trust

24:30

him is because I don't know that he

24:32

tells himself the truth, because

24:35

he makes these comparisons constantly around

24:39

what this relationship is like compared to what

24:41

wasn't working at the other relationship, almost as

24:43

as a way to help him not

24:46

go back to the drug, like to almost talk

24:48

himself through a wait, this is really good, don't

24:50

screw this up. I'm really enjoying this. Yeah,

24:53

he spoke to his sister about me, and

24:56

she was really excited, really happy, and that was

24:58

her reaction, like, don't this up,

25:00

and he got a little annoying. So I think the problem

25:03

with this question of honesty is that

25:05

I don't know that he's ready to

25:07

be honest with himself. So

25:09

it's going to be hard to be honest with you

25:12

too. So

25:21

we have some advice for you. You haven't yet

25:23

taken a clear stand, and in

25:25

part, we think because it

25:28

puts him to the test, puts

25:30

his intentions and his love for you to

25:32

the test, and there's something scary about that, and so

25:35

you're hoping it will happen spontaneously, so

25:37

you're hinting you're talking about the dog rather

25:39

than about her, And we

25:41

think we should put it to the

25:44

test. In that way. You have all kinds of

25:46

good reasons for it to bother

25:48

you in your history, in terms of his history,

25:50

what's going on, and so you're

25:53

fully justified in

25:55

actually addressing it directly

25:58

and head on. And we all to think that there's

26:00

a very natural opportunity

26:04

for you to do so.

26:06

So I'm gonna pass it on to Laurie,

26:08

and she'll tell you exactly what

26:10

we're suggesting. Okay,

26:13

Amy, One of the things that I was thinking about was

26:15

that you're thirty eight and you've been in several

26:18

long term relationships that have not worked

26:21

out, and you you actually

26:23

talked about almost as a positive

26:26

thing, that you stay the course, you

26:28

stay in there in these

26:30

relationships, right, it's a lot of

26:32

time. It's a lot of time, and

26:35

so we want to make sure that you're not going to

26:37

spend two or three years in

26:39

a relationship with

26:42

something that doesn't work, so

26:44

that you can find out more about that now

26:46

earlier on, and if it's not going to

26:48

work, then you can find somebody who's more appropriate

26:51

for you. And if it is going to work, then great.

26:54

And so instead of talking about it in terms

26:56

of an ultimatum, we're talking

26:58

more about what would happen if

27:00

you went to him and said, if you've

27:03

had a very on again, off again,

27:06

volatile, complicated

27:08

relationship with this person. She comes

27:10

up a lot in our conversations. I get

27:12

compared to her a lot. I know you

27:14

have a lot of feelings they're still I

27:17

know you say your friends, but it

27:19

just makes me feel like you're not as

27:21

present with me, and it brings up

27:23

some trust issues with me as well.

27:26

And so what I would like for

27:29

me in this relationship is

27:32

for you to write

27:35

to her before the

27:37

dog is returned and

27:40

to let her know that you're in a new

27:42

relationship. You really want to focus on that

27:44

new relationship, and that you can't

27:46

be in contact with her, so

27:49

that she knows that before she

27:51

sees you to return the dog. And

27:54

then when the dog has returned,

27:57

I would like to be there so

27:59

that I feel comfortable with whatever

28:02

the interaction is, because I do

28:04

want to trust you, but the truth is I don't totally

28:06

trust you yet. That's just

28:08

because of your history and because I know what it's like

28:10

to have this kind of addiction

28:13

to a person, and

28:15

so I would feel more comfortable

28:18

being there. Now you're not saying

28:20

to him and then I will break up with you if you

28:22

don't do this. You're saying, this

28:24

is what I need, and I'm letting you know what

28:26

I need, and you're going to see how responsive

28:29

he is to your needs,

28:32

and you'll say to him, I want you to let me know before

28:34

the dog is returned whether

28:36

this is something that you've decided to do or you've decided

28:39

not to do or rather, I want you

28:41

to let me know before the dog is returned

28:43

whether you're willing to write that letter and

28:45

whether you can do it before the dog is

28:48

returned. Okay, So

28:51

that she has the heads up, so she understands

28:53

that the receiving of her dog back

28:55

is also the ending of

28:57

the friendship. And

29:00

then Amy, the important part is you're not saying

29:02

and then I will leave. What you're saying

29:04

is this is what I need and I'm

29:06

being very clear about my needs in this relationship.

29:09

Then it is not his decision, but it

29:11

is your decision, Amy, about

29:13

what to do if he chooses

29:16

to ignore your needs, and

29:18

you can make whatever choice you want, but I

29:21

hope that it's not going to take two years or three years

29:23

for you to make that choice. We would

29:25

love for you to tell us about how

29:27

that conversation went, how

29:29

and when he told you what his decision

29:32

was, whether you did see the letter,

29:34

and what that was like, and how the

29:36

handoff of the dog went. So a lot of different

29:39

elements that would love to hear about all of

29:41

them. Got it? Okay? Well,

29:43

thank you, Amy, thank you, thank you guys.

29:45

We're very excited to hear how it goes. So

29:48

so am I. We

29:51

look forward to hearing back from you. Thanks so much,

29:54

I appreciate it. Take care of a bye

29:56

bye. So

29:59

I really like to talking to Amy, and

30:01

I'm excited to hear what she does. I think the one thing

30:03

that she's going to have to grapple with is getting

30:05

over the hump of and what if I lose

30:07

the relationship, which is hard to do, especially

30:10

during COVID. But I'm

30:12

very excited to hear how that conversation

30:15

goes and what that shows her not

30:17

so much about him, but about herself

30:20

and her ability to really speak up in a relationship.

30:22

And I think having the experience of doing that will

30:24

really sort of going forward, whether it's with

30:27

this guy or not. This

30:31

is Dear Therapists, and we'll be back

30:33

after a short break. I'm

30:43

Lori Gottlieb and I'm Guy Wench,

30:45

and you're listening to Dea Therapists. So,

30:48

Guy, we heard back from Amy. Oh,

30:50

let's see what she had to say, because she had a lot to

30:52

do. Hi, Laurie, Guy,

30:55

I just wanted to follow up with my homework.

30:58

My plan was to talk

31:01

with him in person about the letter and why

31:03

I felt he needed to write it and why it was

31:05

important, but

31:08

I hadn't had the opportunity to see him because of work.

31:10

And on Monday evening, the

31:13

X wrote and said, Hey,

31:15

I'm coming into town and I'm I'm leaving

31:17

Wednesday. He said, perfect, will you come and

31:19

get the dog on Tuesday.

31:22

I'll leave all of the dogs things

31:25

by the door, and he said, let

31:27

yourself in. I didn't know that she still

31:29

had a key. I knew nothing about this yet, but

31:32

we had plans to see each other Tuesday

31:34

evening. So on

31:37

Tuesday evening, when

31:40

he came to see me, that's when

31:43

this all came to Like Wednesday morning,

31:46

I received a text message from

31:49

him and said the dog is gone.

31:51

But you're not going to believe what happened. I

31:54

thought to myself, Oh, dry me, So

32:00

he said. Tuesday evening

32:03

he went home, the dog was

32:05

still there. He contacted

32:07

her and said, what happened? Why

32:09

didn't she come and get the dog. She made

32:11

an excuse and said, listen, I'm really busy.

32:13

I'm trying to pack out the apartment and I'm leaving

32:16

tomorrow morning, so I really don't have time to come

32:18

and get the dog by now. It was eleven

32:20

o'clock at night. He said, I'm coming to drop off

32:23

the dog. He got

32:25

in his car, went and dropped off the

32:27

dog. She basically

32:29

had no plans to come and get it. He did tell

32:31

me that he was a little concerned because he

32:34

cares for the dog, so he said,

32:36

hey, what are you gonna do with the dog? She just

32:38

seemed to be very disinterested and who kept

32:40

the dog or the dog's well being. She was angry

32:43

that he returned the dog,

32:46

so she said to him,

32:49

well, you were Plan A, so now

32:51

I'm moving to Plan B. My ex

32:54

husband has decided

32:57

to take the dog, and

33:00

then Plan C was

33:03

to have another ex partner take

33:06

the dog. I think it was what

33:09

he needed to hear to be like, I've

33:11

just been used. I felt like he

33:14

had a just a moment

33:16

of clarity. He looked relieved,

33:18

like this weight was lifted off his shoulders.

33:21

I felt relieved about how how everything

33:23

transpired, but I still

33:25

felt like I had to talk about

33:28

the letter, and things

33:30

got a little bit uncomfortable.

33:32

I'm not gonna lie. It was a really difficult conversation.

33:35

He said, well, I never expected this from you.

33:37

I never thought that you would be the person that would ask

33:39

me to end a friendship.

33:42

I said, look, I I need

33:44

you to understand why this is important

33:46

to me. I feel like this

33:49

is a risk for me if you're not

33:52

clear and that this

33:54

person is no longer part of your life, because

33:56

I don't want to find out six months down the road that

33:59

you do, in fact gonna be with this person. He

34:01

listened, he he heard me out, He understood, and he said,

34:04

I understand. I'm gonna write the letter. He wrote a letter,

34:07

He did it, he sent it,

34:09

and he told me that he

34:11

didn't hear back from her, and he said

34:13

that if he did hear back from her, he would

34:16

he would let me know. So that's

34:19

what happened. So I guess we will

34:21

see where this takes us. I

34:27

think this really bodes well for them because

34:29

when she went to him and told him how she felt,

34:32

even if the sequence of events didn't happen

34:35

as she had planned, when the ex

34:37

girlfriend did not pick up the dog, he

34:39

made a bold move. He went and

34:41

drove the dog to her. He said,

34:44

I'm not going to take care of your dog anymore.

34:47

And I thought that was a real show

34:49

of support for how she was feeling.

34:52

And then of course when she asked for the letter, he

34:54

ended up sending that letter, And so I think this

34:57

is a really good start to establishing

34:59

truck surround this issue. I agree. I

35:01

think this was great for Amy because this

35:04

was clearly uncomfortable for her to do. I

35:07

hope she told him that she appreciated what he

35:09

did, that it was meaningful to her because he did quite

35:11

a bunch of stuff, and she

35:13

really advocated for herself. She stood

35:15

up for herself. She was clear with herself

35:17

and with him about what she needed.

35:20

And I think that he got something

35:22

out of this too, which is he got some

35:24

clarity when he saw when

35:27

he wasn't going to take the dog, that he was

35:29

just one of many who

35:32

was being asked to do this thing for

35:34

her. So I think there was a moment of clarity

35:36

for him that maybe he harbored

35:38

this fantasy that he was still special to her and

35:41

now he was saying, wait a minute, I'm seeing

35:44

who I am to her much more clearly, and

35:46

all loyalty used to people, including

35:48

dogs. Yeah,

35:52

I think they're both going to benefit. It

35:54

really voges well for a couple when you

35:56

can go to somebody and say here's

35:59

something that I'm on comfortable with and the person

36:01

is responsive to you. It also establishes

36:04

a precedent for them that when

36:07

something is uncomfortable, we're going to raise

36:09

it, we're going to talk about it, and we're going to resolve

36:11

it as a great precedent to take forward into a

36:13

relationship. That

36:17

brings us to the end of our show for this week. Thank

36:20

you so much for listening. You can follow

36:22

us both online. I'm at Lori Gottlieb

36:24

dot com and you can follow me on Twitter

36:27

at Lori Gottlieb one or on Instagram

36:29

at Lori Gottlieb Underscore Author

36:32

and I'm at guy Winch dot com. I'm

36:34

on Twitter and on Instagram at guy

36:37

Winch. If you have a dilemma you'd

36:39

like to discuss with us, big or small, email

36:41

us at Lorian guy at I heart

36:44

Media dot com. Our executive producers

36:46

Christopher hasci Otis, were produced

36:48

and edited by Mike John's Special

36:51

thanks to Samuel Benefield and to

36:53

our podcast Fairy Godmother Katie

36:55

Couric and Next Time on Dear Therapists.

36:58

An adopted woman for was a close relationship

37:01

with her biological father, but then a

37:03

DNA test reveals a shocking surprise.

37:05

Growing up, it was super important

37:08

to me to have the answers as

37:10

to who my pological parents were, so

37:12

it was pretty devastating when the

37:15

person who was supposed to be my father wasn't

37:17

my father and I had another father there

37:19

somewhere. Dear Therapist is a production

37:22

of I Heart Radio.