0:03

Welcome to Dear Daughter with me,

0:05

Namulanta Kombo. Podcasts

0:08

from

0:08

the BBC World Service are supported

0:11

by advertising.

0:14

Hi there, I'm

0:17

Gavin Crawford. I'm a writer, an

0:19

actor and a comedian. And for

0:21

the last eight or nine years, I have been navigating

0:24

life with my mother's increasing dementia.

0:27

Has it been sad? Yeah. Has

0:29

it been funny? Also, yeah.

0:33

That's what my brand new podcast series, Let's Not Be Kidding,

0:35

is about. It's the true story

0:37

of my life as a comedian, my

0:39

mom and dementia. Let's

0:43

Not Be Kidding, with me, Gavin

0:45

Crawford.

0:45

A new seven-part series from CBC

0:47

Podcasts, available now.

0:59

Hello, I'm Namulanta Kombo

1:00

and this is Dear Daughter. The

1:04

podcast I'm making with the BBC World

1:06

Service. Episode 14, You

1:08

Are Wanted. I

1:16

remember looking at my daughter the day she was born

1:18

and thinking, I've been waiting

1:21

for you. I had so

1:23

much to say, more than I could ever

1:25

put into words. I later

1:28

decided I would write her letters of love and

1:30

advice.

1:37

Dear Daughter. Dear Daughter. My

1:40

dear daughter. Dear Daughter.

1:45

I'm collecting letters from across the world

1:48

for daughters everywhere. To

1:50

create a sort of handbook to life.

1:53

On today's episode, I'm talking

1:55

to our latest fan and letter writer,

1:58

Shakti. I

2:03

was born in Jalandhar in India and

2:06

my father was in the army and we moved

2:08

all across India. I changed 13

2:10

schools in 12 years, that's the amount we

2:12

moved. It was never a

2:15

dull moment because there was so much

2:17

of different states and

2:19

cultures to go through. So

2:21

I was at times at schools where my

2:24

friends didn't even have drainage in their

2:27

houses and the next I would be in a school

2:29

where I had actress' kids studying.

2:33

Her

2:33

dad was keen for her to have as many

2:35

opportunities as possible. If I

2:37

wanted to do a badminton camp when

2:40

I was in eighth grade but it was in

2:42

another city at five in the morning,

2:44

he would arrange for all of these things. Anything

2:47

that I asked for, I would get it at the drop of a hat

2:49

when it comes to seeking anything

2:51

for whether it's studies or sports or anything

2:54

of positive value from a parent's perspective.

2:57

She excelled at school and wanted to get

2:59

stuck into the world of work. When

3:01

I was growing up in the

3:03

80s, India was, it

3:06

was a bit slow but then

3:08

after 91, that's when India opened

3:12

up to private companies and the market economy

3:14

booped. And by the time I was passing out

3:16

from school and college, we

3:18

suddenly had a lot of opportunities. So

3:20

it was exciting. Yes, it was very

3:23

exciting.

3:23

Shakti started working for a big international

3:26

firm and began making her way up

3:28

the corporate ladder.

3:30

She met her husband, got married

3:32

and had a daughter.

3:34

Soon after, she was offered a job in Denmark.

3:37

So they moved. My employer

3:40

had been offering me for a long time for

3:43

positions here because it's a Danish

3:45

headquartered company.

3:47

And because of good childcare here,

3:49

then we moved and we have been here for the past eight

3:51

years. Shakti, what is your daughter

3:53

like as an eight year old? She

3:57

is a delight. And

4:00

I don't know if you can make her smile whenever I think of

4:02

her. She is into

4:04

art big time. I think she likes comic

4:07

strips and miniature art

4:09

kind of thing. And likes

4:11

to play video games. She loves

4:14

doing handstands. I think every

4:16

girl this age in Denmark is doing that. So she's constantly

4:18

always cartwheeling around the place. Shakti

4:23

has a family of her own and a high

4:25

flying career. She's nailing

4:27

it. But looking back at her life,

4:29

there is something that bothers her. She

4:33

wants to make sure her own daughter never

4:35

has to experience it.

4:37

Feeling unwanted.

4:42

Shakti is a second of two daughters.

4:46

So growing up in India, was it the norm

4:48

to have just two children? When

4:50

I was born in the 80s,

4:53

yes, it was very aggressively promoted

4:55

to have two children.

4:58

It wasn't enforced, but it was definitely

5:01

promoted a lot through posters and

5:04

other means to promote smaller families.

5:06

The previous generation had five

5:08

to seven kids each, but my generation

5:11

then more or less had two, three

5:13

kids at the max. And

5:15

so when you're the second of two girls

5:18

in a community where you only have two

5:20

children,

5:22

that presents a problem. Typically,

5:24

sons are preferred in India,

5:27

traditionally like it has always been

5:29

that the boys are preferred compared

5:32

to girls because they can be breadwinners, because

5:34

they can be protectors. And so Shakti

5:36

was not the desired boy.

5:39

When she heard about my podcast, she decided

5:41

to put pen to paper and write a

5:43

letter to her daughter. Here

5:45

it is.

5:49

Dear daughter, when you were younger,

5:51

we often had this conversation. You

5:53

would ask, mom, did you want a son

5:55

or a daughter? I would say

5:58

I want a daughter. You would.

5:59

what if you had a son? And

6:02

then I would say that I would have had a second

6:04

child and hoped it was a daughter.

6:07

You

6:07

would ask again, what if you again got

6:09

a son mom? And then I

6:12

would tell her that I would have adopted a daughter then.

6:14

I

6:15

wanted you to know that I wanted a girl

6:17

child and that you were the chosen

6:20

one. When

6:24

I was born, my father didn't

6:26

come to the hospital to see me for two days. He

6:29

wanted a son. He never held me

6:32

back from any opportunity and none

6:34

of his actions as a parent were anything less

6:36

than supportive. But

6:38

he was under tremendous pressure from his

6:40

own father to try for another child, to

6:43

try for a son. Letting

6:45

me know that our grandfather didn't want me

6:48

always made me blend into the background and

6:50

try not

6:50

to be noticed by him. The

6:54

world has progressed a lot since then but

6:56

we are still miles away. When you

6:58

learned to read and speak, your

7:01

identity was subsumed in the he him.

7:04

What you studied was his story. When

7:07

you pray to God you saw that he's a man. Newspaper

7:10

headlines, movie stars, political leaders,

7:13

even video games, Mario Bros and Pac-Man.

7:16

In everything girls are a part of the scene

7:18

but never in the lead. When

7:21

you will enter the workforce you will see 70 to 80

7:23

percent top leadership is male. I

7:26

know your social surroundings won't make you feel

7:28

entitled and that's why

7:30

I wanted you to know from the

7:32

start that when mama got to know that it

7:34

was a girl she shrieked loudly.

7:36

Yay! I wanted a girl!

7:41

When you were born, the hospital staff

7:43

were hesitant to share the news of a girl child

7:45

with your grandparents and with your father. The

7:49

staff were surprised when your grandparents

7:51

and father also said that they wanted a girl

7:53

child. We all

7:56

wanted you and that's why you came to us.

8:00

you, mama. So

8:04

Shakti, at the beginning of your letter,

8:07

and at the end of your letter, you allude

8:09

to your grandfather

8:12

and people that worked in the hospital when your own daughter

8:14

was born. How important it

8:16

was to have a boy and perhaps

8:19

not a girl. Could you just tell us a bit more

8:21

about what that's like in India?

8:24

Yes, it was my paternal grandfather

8:27

who really wanted my father to have

8:29

a son and to continue

8:31

the family line.

8:32

But my parents were quite clear

8:35

that they only wanted to have two children and

8:37

as many children as they could give a good life to.

8:41

Typically, sons are preferred

8:43

in India. Personally,

8:45

for me, I felt a lot of that as a

8:47

child from my grandfather, not

8:50

from my parents. And I had forgotten

8:52

about it in my 20s, once

8:55

I grew up and left my home. But

8:57

when my daughter was born, I was surprised

9:00

to see the reaction of the hospital staff,

9:03

even my doctor and the receptionist when

9:05

they heard that I had delivered a girl child.

9:07

They didn't even congratulate me. While

9:10

I had moved on,

9:11

a large part of the country was still where

9:14

it was when I was born. And therefore

9:16

I need to make a conscious effort to make her feel

9:19

welcome in this world. That must have been

9:21

really difficult for you to feel that

9:23

way from your grandfather,

9:25

perhaps that you weren't wanted. Do

9:27

you remember specific things that made you feel that

9:29

way? Or was it just generally hanging over

9:31

your relationship? It's not nice

9:34

to not feel wanted by the people who

9:36

brought you into this world. And

9:39

that's why I actually blended

9:41

into the background. I tried never to face him because

9:43

I just felt he never wanted me. There

9:45

were

9:46

quite a few annoying incidents.

9:49

So as an example, the

9:51

10th grade exam, which is the first

9:53

major exam that you take, I

9:55

had scored extremely well.

9:57

I had got upwards of 90%. first

10:00

time in our family and so on. I

10:02

didn't so much as receive a phone call

10:04

from him. But the next year

10:07

when my cousin brother got 65%, he

10:10

actually got a motorbike from him. And

10:13

that made me realize even more that it's

10:15

not about what I do, what I can achieve, but

10:17

it's just about who I am. And he will never

10:19

like me, respective of what I do. I

10:22

will always be a no one to him.

10:27

You didn't even live in the same place as

10:29

him often, but you would still feel the

10:32

burden of him not wanting you, wherever

10:35

you went. Yeah, that's actually, yes,

10:37

you're right. I think I was lucky that my father was in the army

10:40

and we didn't need to spend so much time with him. The

10:42

fact was that my own father obviously

10:45

felt quite disappointed in himself because

10:47

like any other child, he wanted

10:50

his parents' validation. So

10:52

even if the grandfather wasn't around, it

10:55

was my father's own disappointment in himself

10:58

that would come out in some of our discussions, which

11:01

used to hurt me. And

11:02

also I would hear

11:04

family friends as an example asking, aren't

11:07

you going in for a third child? Aren't you trying for

11:10

a son? So it wasn't just my grandfather,

11:12

but it was also the people around who would

11:14

think it's obvious that you should try and have a son.

11:18

And I remember my mother saying it confidently

11:20

many times that we have had

11:22

two kids, they both happen to be daughters and

11:24

we are happy. But just the fact

11:27

that everyone thought it was a normal conversation

11:29

to have and to ask people, why

11:31

aren't you trying for a son?

11:32

And to ask that in front

11:33

of the daughters. To me, that

11:35

was hurtful

11:38

and it made me feel that I wasn't wanted. In

11:44

the letter, you mentioned that your dad didn't come

11:46

to see you in the hospital after you were born for two

11:49

days. It's obviously your

11:51

baby. So how did you find out that

11:53

he wasn't there for two days? I believe it

11:55

was told to me directly many times.

11:58

It's one of those things that you have.

11:59

just always known. So

12:02

I can't pinpoint this is when I was told,

12:04

but this is just something that

12:06

I know as a fact about

12:08

my life always, that he did

12:10

not want to come and see me because he wanted

12:13

a son. You know, he was under tremendous pressure

12:15

from his own father, but

12:17

he was very supportive. You've mentioned the letter, he was

12:19

very supportive

12:20

of you. How did he balance

12:23

the two?

12:24

I think as I saw my father,

12:26

he was someone who worked in

12:28

a very progressive workspace. So

12:30

his brain would probably tell him that this is the more

12:33

logical thing to do while his heart

12:35

would always pull him back to where he came from.

12:37

He spoke

12:40

about the things that were troubling his heart in terms

12:42

of not being able to meet his father's

12:45

expectations. But his actions

12:47

were always based on what his brain said was

12:49

the more logical

12:51

objective thing to do. Any

12:56

opportunity

12:56

that I wanted, anything

12:58

that I asked for, I would get it at the drop of a hat

13:01

when it comes to seeking anything for, whether

13:03

it's studies or sports or anything

13:05

of positive value from a parent's perspective.

13:08

He was very excited to hear that he

13:10

was having a granddaughter, which

13:11

he said in the letter. Yes.

13:14

And he's always asking for her. He's always telling

13:17

me to just prioritize her and do whatever she wants.

13:20

He's always just wishing us well.

13:22

And with moving around so much and having to

13:24

start and restart your life in new schools,

13:27

make new friends,

13:29

how did feeling this way,

13:31

how do you think it impacted

13:33

you as a little girl growing up,

13:36

especially when you had to make all these changes with

13:38

moving?

13:40

I think something interesting here is the fact that

13:42

my name Shakti actually means

13:45

the ultimate feminine power.

13:48

And though it's a goddess's name, but

13:50

because it means strength and power,

13:53

it's always given to boys.

13:55

So for me, it was actually really difficult

13:57

moving to so many schools and at. teenage

14:00

time when you're also getting your upper lip

14:02

hair. Every time I would move to a new

14:05

school, the boys would say, Oh Shakti's here,

14:07

Shakti's here, Shakti Maan is here, Shakti Kapoor is here.

14:09

And unfortunately, there was also a screen

14:12

actor at that time who was playing a villain whose

14:14

name was Shakti Kapoor. So I hated

14:17

the fact that my parents wanted a boy. They

14:19

named me after a boy's name and then

14:21

I had to change the school and every year I had

14:24

to go through the same cycle of boys making fun

14:26

of my name.

14:26

And

14:28

I thought that was really unfair as to why they

14:31

named me this. Though today

14:33

as a mother, I think very differently. If

14:36

I didn't have this name, I would have actually named my daughter

14:38

this because I think it's the best name that

14:41

a daughter can have.

14:42

What did it mean to you to have that name?

14:45

To have this name because usually

14:48

girls have very soft, beautiful,

14:50

pretty names of flowers and things

14:53

like that. You rarely have names

14:55

which are very strong for women.

15:01

You did well in school and you were able to join

15:04

the workforce. But again in your letter

15:06

you say, you know, we are still

15:08

miles away. You know, it's

15:11

a man's world. In your leadership roles,

15:13

what changes are you trying to implement? What

15:15

are you seeing changing about

15:19

creating space for women? I

15:22

have always had large multinational

15:27

teams to lead and

15:29

I find it quite interesting

15:32

to actually notice that girls

15:34

and women all across the world grow up in

15:36

a way gendered way. So it's not

15:38

just India, but it's all across

15:40

the world.

15:41

I find it quite striking that even

15:44

in countries with extremely high

15:46

rating on gender equality

15:49

where Nordics are leading here, the mom

15:51

guilt is the same. When an

15:53

employee is announcing about their

15:55

pregnancy, they have the same guilt and

15:57

the same insecurity about their career that women.

15:59

in Asia and women in India have. So

16:02

it's just common across. And

16:05

therefore I feel as a leader, it's extremely

16:08

important to be able to create

16:10

a safe space and to talk about it. But

16:13

also actually much more importantly,

16:16

I feel it's not just a woman's topic.

16:18

And that's something that I try to do in my

16:20

workspace to talk actually about it, not just

16:22

to the women team members, but

16:24

also to the male team members. It will be a far

16:27

better place if men were participating far

16:29

more in bringing up

16:29

children, if they were to find their caretaking

16:32

side more. And that's something that I

16:34

love about the Nordics where they're such good parents

16:36

to leave, where the fathers take the time off and

16:39

they talk about their children at work. And

16:41

I try to replicate that in all of the other

16:44

geographies that I lead in. I

16:46

find Nordics very unique in that. And I think that's the

16:48

right way it should be. Yeah,

16:52

it's so important for us to have allies in men, even

16:55

as I am talking to my own daughter. I

16:58

want my son and I want my husband and

17:00

I want her granddad and her uncles

17:03

to understand as well. What

17:05

would you say to a girl joining the workplace for the first

17:07

time? Define your own dreams. And I think

17:09

the world that exists today needs to change to

17:12

make space for that. And

17:14

that can happen only if all women step

17:17

out and be themselves rather than trying to fit into

17:19

the mold that the men have created. My

17:21

daughter is six and

17:22

yours is eight. What work

17:25

can I be doing to pour that

17:27

confidence in her so

17:29

that she is comfortable with herself and can

17:31

grow up to be the woman that you're describing? That's

17:34

an interesting question while I'm trying a lot

17:36

of things, but at the same time,

17:38

I think parenthood is something that you get a report

17:40

cut off after 20 years. So

17:43

it's a constant journey of figuring out, did

17:45

I

17:46

address this in the right way or

17:48

what happened? That's why I'm

17:50

collecting all the tips so I can try. I'll

17:53

try as much as I can. So if there's any

17:55

tip that you can give me, I would really

17:57

appreciate it. Sometimes

17:59

I feel like it's a good idea It's just the little things. I'll

18:01

give you an example for me. My daughter is

18:04

very slim. She's very

18:06

small bodied. And

18:08

in my mind, in my African mind, your

18:10

child needs to eat. Her eating

18:13

is, and her putting on weight is

18:15

an indication of health. And

18:17

it's something I would hear from aunts and uncles

18:19

and people around me. Oh, your daughter's not eating.

18:21

She needs to eat more. She needs to put some meat on her

18:24

bones. And I was starting

18:26

to think, am I starving my child? Am

18:28

I looking at her? But maybe this is just

18:30

her body type. You know, I thought

18:32

this is actually who she is. And

18:35

I can't be the one that gives her a complex about

18:37

her body at such a young age. She's

18:40

eating fine. And I had to stop myself

18:42

from feeding into that frenzy

18:45

that my child is not healthy because

18:47

she is not a certain

18:48

weight. You know what I mean? So

18:51

there's a type of small things that I have

18:53

to stop myself and think, okay, I need to

18:55

make sure that I'm pouring into her and not

18:57

taking away from

18:58

her. Something

19:00

that I learned only in my thirties maybe

19:04

was the fact that things will go wrong

19:06

irrespective of how hard you try. And

19:09

what's important is

19:10

that you find your strength

19:12

to pick yourself up. So as an example,

19:15

she is now beginning to get a bit of upper lip

19:17

hair.

19:18

And one of her cousins said that,

19:20

hey, you're getting a mush touch. And

19:23

obviously as a girl, she did not like hearing that.

19:26

So then I tried to, of course, to

19:29

ask how she feels and how she wants to

19:31

react to it. I also told her that

19:33

there'll be a stage when your cousin

19:35

will feel a bit odd about the fact that his beard is

19:37

not coming out. So what you're

19:39

going through now, at some stage he's gonna go through it

19:41

as well. So we all have to go through different

19:44

problems. And it's important to

19:46

understand that that's what life's meant

19:48

to be. It's not meant to be.

19:50

It will give you your fair share of troubles irrespective

19:53

of what happens. That's

19:55

what I love about this podcast that we're able to

19:57

come on here and laugh and...

19:59

cry and try

20:02

not to cry but it's been

20:05

really nice talking to Shakti about

20:08

something that I think about often.

20:11

I think about it often because I want

20:14

it for my kids and I think about it often because

20:16

I received it from my mum and

20:18

that's the feeling of

20:20

always being seen.

20:24

Any little achievement, anything

20:26

big that I've done, she's noticed

20:29

when my clothes are rumpled and she's noticed

20:32

when I'm hungry. My mum has

20:34

always given me the feeling that she sees me and

20:37

I just can't imagine being a

20:39

child and feeling unwanted,

20:42

particularly from a family member. So it's

20:45

great that Shakti is having this conversation

20:47

with me and in

20:49

the letter to her daughter that she never wants her child

20:52

to feel that she's not seen

20:54

and not wanted, not enough

20:56

and I hope that in us hearing

20:59

what it felt like from Shakti, we're

21:02

able to do the things that will make our kids

21:04

feel confident and strong,

21:07

wanted and loved,

21:09

seen and heard so

21:11

that we can raise children that grow into

21:14

the women that Shakti wants

21:17

us to be. So

21:19

as much as Shakti's parents did everything

21:21

they could for her to support her and

21:23

help her excel, she couldn't

21:26

help feel like she was a disappointment for not

21:28

being born a boy and

21:30

I really hope that in listening to Shakti

21:33

talk about how this impacted her, we're

21:35

able to make sure this doesn't

21:37

happen in the future.

21:47

If

21:47

you like the show, why don't you leave us a

21:49

review wherever you get your podcasts.

21:55

Next time, instead of talking about daughters, I'll

22:00

be turning my attention to sons. I'm

22:03

talking to Andy about the letter he has written

22:05

to his son. He's 10 years

22:07

old and about to make the journey from child

22:09

to adult.

22:10

He was running a race at school and

22:12

the competitive

22:14

man in me says, come on,

22:16

get to the front. You were at the front. You could have got a medal

22:19

there. And then I wonder, am

22:21

I the right type of guy? We

22:23

have lots of me's in the world, lots of

22:26

competitive push to the front

22:28

kind of guys. Maybe we need more

22:30

of him. Dear

22:37

Daughter is presented by me, Namulanta

22:39

Kombo, and produced by me and

22:41

Charlotte McDonald with support from Maggie

22:43

Karanja and Lucy Burns. The

22:46

editor is Claire Fordham,

22:48

mixed by Neil Churchill. Theme

22:50

music composed by Justin Nichols. Crabjet

22:54

Bains

22:54

is the BBC World Service

22:56

podcast producer and John Manel

22:58

is the podcast commissioning editor.

23:04

See you next time.

23:12

Hi there, I'm Gavin Crawford.

23:14

I'm a writer and actor and a comedian.

23:17

And for the last eight or nine years, I have been

23:20

navigating life with my mother's increasing

23:22

dementia. Has it been sad?

23:25

Yeah. Has it been funny? Also,

23:28

yeah. That's what my brand

23:30

new podcast series Let's Not Be Kidding is

23:32

about. It's the true story of my

23:34

life as a comedian, my mom and

23:37

dementia. Let's Not

23:40

Be Kidding with me, Gavin Crawford,

23:42

a new seven part series from CBC

23:44

podcasts available now.