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woman from the Bbc World Service. Listen now

1:01

where ever you get your Bbc podcasts. Hi

1:09

it's me Ma'am will enter combo and

1:12

you're listening to did daughter on the

1:14

Bbc World Service. I did make up

1:16

to meet you. Go

1:18

about the my husband like you're doing

1:20

a radio program. You know that? This

1:24

is when she's in Hong Kong

1:26

and today we're going to be

1:28

talking about beating. It's something we've

1:30

talked about before. You might remember

1:33

our Whole Lives show from Nairobi

1:35

last year was about love and

1:37

marriage. but when I Got wins.

1:39

Letter. And was something that intrigued

1:41

me about it. In order, like about

1:43

your letters and it kinda reads like

1:45

a list. Yes. Oh.

1:48

What genuine what not to do? And

1:50

sometimes I feel like I would have

1:52

loved that practical advice. like literally, how

1:54

do I find the right man for

1:57

do I need to look out. when

2:00

I wrote it and I really wrote

2:02

it in one sitting and probably

2:04

there was just a brush of

2:06

ideas and then I probably just wrote

2:08

it within like 15 minutes because I

2:10

had so much to share. A

2:13

little bit like grandma telling little

2:15

Red Riding Hood about the

2:17

wolf but also things that I

2:19

have experienced and things that I

2:21

wish that I were told when

2:24

I was her age. And I'm gonna,

2:26

I will share it with my daughter as well. But

2:29

the other thing that's interesting about Wen's letter

2:31

is that it was partly inspired

2:33

by something terrible that happened in Hong Kong

2:35

last year. So actually

2:37

it was quite a gruesome

2:40

piece of news. An

2:42

influencer, she got murdered

2:46

by the ex-husband and his

2:48

family. The influencer's name was

2:50

Abby Choi. It was a

2:53

bit of a shock for the

2:55

entire city of Hong Kong. It

2:57

happened last March. So

3:00

for some reason it really got me. And

3:04

at that time my elder daughter was 11

3:07

years old but I had that premonition

3:09

or something. I was thinking okay

3:11

she is probably time that she

3:13

would start some

3:16

relationship. So I

3:18

really want to give her some advice

3:20

and I want her to protect herself

3:22

and not fall victim

3:25

to let's say abusive relationships.

3:31

So my daughters were both brought up

3:33

in a very kind of

3:35

safe environment. And

3:38

also they are not really aware

3:40

of the fact that there could

3:42

be people with very malicious intentions

3:45

out there. So there

3:48

was a sense of urgency there. I

3:50

want you to enjoy life. I want you

3:52

to meet good people and you probably will.

3:54

But you need to understand

3:56

that there Are also danger out

3:59

there. When letter may

4:01

have been inspired by something awful,

4:03

but hold on because she's also

4:05

got some highly useful tips five

4:07

whenever and wherever. I'm not saying

4:09

doing it in the best. Were

4:11

with a bunch of strangers and

4:14

of the safest is in a

4:16

in a relationship like you need

4:18

to be able to show your

4:20

partner adults ugly side might be

4:22

a good their daughter to my

4:24

dearest only daughter team to. Said

4:28

six The dating to do list.

4:33

And what is Hong Kong like explaining to people who

4:36

have never been. So. I'm

4:38

originally from Shanghai side.

4:40

Came to Hong Kong when I was

4:43

in my twenties to pursue my further

4:45

studies and other a lot of scholars

4:47

go case it's it's a financial centres.

4:49

So in the people walk

4:52

very fast because time is

4:54

money all the at the

4:56

same time. It also has

4:59

a huge natural environment. Where

5:01

you can just get to the see

5:03

in half an hour and then go

5:05

on a hike in the mountains. He

5:08

loved living there are do I also

5:10

love the fact that are of leading

5:12

lady east me. Or. The

5:14

was. So poor husband

5:16

is British, so as for

5:18

me, it's. All

5:21

the to for to bring up to two

5:23

daughters because. They can have seen them

5:26

both languages and ah, they don't

5:28

stand out that much. How old

5:30

are your bills? So.

5:32

The elder one is twelve. Ah,

5:34

going on says he Racer and

5:37

the younger one is only five.

5:39

I imagine the twelve is going

5:42

on thirteen. Said feeling like going on

5:44

to the size. Of oh

5:46

yes exactly Professor. of

5:49

that they say about of. The figure were

5:51

that easy to My daughter's twenty eight

5:53

this year, but I can see it

5:55

coming. I can see her knowing it'll

5:57

and she's teaching me how you noticed.

6:00

Into you know what are they like

6:02

at the moment? My older daughter. She's

6:04

really like an adult like we have

6:06

club or stations. As to say

6:08

it sends. Out she thinks

6:10

that on to predict the boat. As

6:12

has since. Those who knows that, for example, I'm

6:15

going to ask her things like have you press

6:17

cities. Or did you finish your homework

6:19

And she said before I finish my

6:21

sentence, you have you that ye, yes,

6:23

the little ones. That I mean the

6:25

five year old. I'm still enjoying that

6:27

stage way. Mama is the best You

6:30

those and whatever she says is. To

6:32

it that this the right thing. so I'm

6:34

I'm trying to enjoy. As much as

6:36

I can because I know he will

6:38

last very long. So. When. Would

6:40

you read this? The matter now? keys. Saw

6:43

saw. The

6:45

his daughter. Love yourself before

6:47

you love others. Talk

6:49

about six. It's not a crime.

6:53

Spring Condoms make sure he

6:55

uses them or the time

6:57

if it's a him virginity.

6:59

Is not virtuous, Good

7:02

deeds are looking to their

7:04

eyes. Trust their eyes more

7:06

than their words. Be.

7:08

Skeptical about lines to

7:10

poetic. Appreciate

7:13

blunt expressions of honest

7:15

feelings, On the

7:17

date dress in the way the species.

7:19

You know, differences? Know

7:22

that you have. Beautiful. But

7:25

don't show off your beauty. Appearance

7:28

is important. Work

7:30

on it. Or work harder

7:32

on the inside. It is

7:34

what makes you feel secure in the

7:37

real since. Fighting

7:39

is not always bad. It

7:42

is a passionate way of communicating.

7:45

Lease. And never return if

7:47

a fight. Gets physical, If

7:49

he doesn't meet. Ditch. Him

7:52

immediately. Be

7:54

loyal, but don't be

7:56

obsessed State innocence, but

7:58

not naive. He

8:01

kind of always be aware

8:03

of human crew to bring

8:05

the to any leads to

8:07

meeting between is in the

8:09

news. In Paris you. And

8:12

I won't reach your feather messages. Yes,

8:16

have multiple lovers.

8:18

I. Had to field and

8:20

I regret it. If

8:22

you don't have to marry. Someone or

8:24

have children. Lead

8:27

a life you create with your

8:29

own hands. Content you make your

8:31

own money. You don't

8:33

need to be rich, but you

8:35

have to be independence. Do not

8:37

give without. Boundary hold

8:40

hands. Hug each other

8:42

every day, help each

8:44

other grow old gracefully. Thought

8:47

whenever and wherever. Don't try

8:49

to hide it. It is

8:51

the best test of true

8:53

love. Week. And

8:56

small with this year. Marks still

8:58

on your face. Relationships are

9:01

hard work so work on

9:03

them. Bluff Live.

9:06

Cherishes but don't be

9:08

afraid to leave it

9:10

alone. We all do.

9:12

Ultimately, Laugh.

9:14

Mama. P S: Don't listen

9:17

to your mom. After all,

9:19

what The see? that? As

9:22

I know indeed see those a lot.

9:24

Thank you so much When someone that

9:27

has your daughter see the and what

9:29

does he think yeah says she has

9:31

spread as to has read different versions

9:34

of as an Fcc encouraged me to

9:36

send it to you She said this

9:38

is very endearing but it's also very

9:41

embarrassed fitness I was imagining see either

9:43

rolled her eyes or see less some

9:45

to us. And

9:48

I'm so as. From

9:50

your letter. from

9:52

the letter and when you look back

9:54

at your dating life tell me which

9:56

ones particularly a played out of the

9:58

talk about our thoughts My

10:03

daughter said, maybe you shouldn't include that

10:06

line, right? But I

10:08

said, this is so important. Because

10:11

I remember when I was in my first

10:13

relationship, I wanted to be that

10:16

perfect girl. Because

10:18

I was going out with someone

10:20

that I have had a cosine

10:22

for probably like years.

10:25

So I was just like, oh,

10:27

I wish come true. So

10:29

I would always look

10:32

very nice and I would eat

10:34

in a very elegant way. And

10:38

I would never fart in front of

10:40

him. Literally

10:43

I would try to transform

10:45

myself into an image that I

10:48

think that would please him. So

10:51

this didn't work out because it

10:53

just was not completely

10:56

honest. So with

10:58

my husband, I have changed

11:00

my strategy, which is just be

11:02

my true self all the time.

11:04

So that's why I said, fart

11:07

whenever and wherever. I'm

11:10

not saying doing it in a lift with

11:12

a bunch of strangers. I'm just saying

11:15

in a relationship, like you need

11:17

to be able to show your

11:19

partner your true self and your

11:21

ugly side if he can

11:24

bear with that. I think

11:26

that's a wonderful thing. You don't

11:28

have to look good. You don't have

11:31

to behave well in front of someone

11:34

you love. How

11:36

did you come to think that way?

11:38

Because I think you said that these are not

11:41

the type of things that you spoke about when

11:43

you were growing up. So what was

11:45

your upbringing like? What was your childhood like?

11:47

I feel like as a girl

11:49

growing up in China, we were

11:51

educated in such a way that

11:54

we have to prioritize other

11:56

people's development and then never have to be

11:58

a part of it. have we talked

12:01

about sex either? I

12:04

think it's also to do with the

12:06

society that my parents were living

12:08

in because it's a taboo. And

12:11

then my mom told me that they

12:14

had no knowledge of

12:16

sex at all. And when

12:19

they were newly wedded,

12:22

they didn't know how to do it. So

12:24

my mom very naturally went

12:26

to ask my grandmother, right?

12:28

My grandmother was so ashamed

12:31

and she would not talk to her about

12:33

it. She just said, even dogs and cats

12:35

can do it and you can't do it.

12:38

But basically my mom didn't get

12:40

the answer. What happened was that

12:42

they went to a public library's

12:45

biology section in a very

12:47

scientific way. They learned about sex

12:50

organs and reproductive

12:53

features of human bodies. And

12:56

that's how they managed

12:58

it. I just want

13:01

to be very openly telling

13:03

my daughters about these things

13:06

and then give them as much

13:08

information as possible and then also make it

13:10

a very safe space at

13:12

home that they could discuss this kind of

13:15

thing with me. So yeah,

13:17

the hands stay practical. Yeah.

13:21

That is so interesting about your parents.

13:27

It's crazy though. Yeah,

13:29

it's during the Cultural Revolution. So

13:31

a lot of things are taboo.

13:33

So when my mom told me

13:35

that she was laughing and was

13:37

joking, but in retrospect, it

13:39

was just you can

13:41

see how oppressed the

13:44

society is that you have

13:46

to resort to a library. Well,

13:51

you know what? Two generations later,

13:53

a lot of young people are

13:55

still using social media and they're learning things

13:58

are fair. That's very nice. library.

14:00

So I much prefer the

14:02

route that you're taking where you're

14:04

the one that's giving the information and

14:07

the lessons as opposed to strangers.

14:10

So your daughter's thinking

14:12

about dating or she's coming into

14:15

a time in her life where she

14:17

will start dating. I think so, yeah. First,

14:21

how does her dad feel about that? So

14:24

I asked him before I gave birth

14:26

to our first child, I said, what

14:28

would you like to do to our

14:31

daughter that you feel that your parents

14:33

did not do? And he said,

14:35

I want to say I love you to her

14:37

every day. It really, you

14:39

know, it really touched me. Yeah. I

14:42

thought he would be like, you know,

14:44

the stereotype, right? And send

14:46

off the suitors. But

14:48

he's quite okay. He's actually very open about

14:50

it. But he just like so long as,

14:53

you know, you're honest with us and you

14:55

consult us. And I guess he's been a

14:57

young man, right? He's

14:59

been a young boy himself before.

15:01

So he he understands. I am

15:04

absolutely married to a stereotype. He

15:06

is that guy. Obviously,

15:10

you've got friends and you know, you had

15:13

a dating life in the past

15:16

and you've seen what dating is like, especially

15:18

now dating looks really hard. I talk to

15:20

my friends that are not married, single friends

15:22

or looking to date. And

15:24

some of the stories I hear, it's

15:26

scary, it's shocking. It's

15:29

funny. It's hard. It sounds like

15:32

it's very difficult. How do we

15:34

tell our daughters to do

15:36

this, do this, don't do that and still keep

15:39

them safe? Because there's some young men who are

15:41

not, who are not

15:43

what we want our daughters anywhere near.

15:46

So how do you tell her to go

15:48

forth and prosper, but keep

15:50

safe? I guess just keep

15:52

her as informed as possible.

15:56

So actually, we had a discussion

15:58

about happy choice. situation

16:00

like what led to that

16:03

crime. So we had the

16:05

lengthy discussion. I also told her that I was

16:08

having difficulty sleeping

16:10

because I was thinking about it. So

16:13

we would discuss things that we

16:15

see on social media or on the

16:17

news and try to just

16:19

have conversations as much

16:21

as we can. And I

16:23

guess it's also, you

16:27

are right, you're absolutely right about the dating

16:30

scene these days. It's almost

16:33

always social media as well. And

16:35

I have students who told me

16:38

that these days, you know, everything

16:40

happens on Instagram or dating

16:44

software. You

16:47

never know who's actually there.

16:49

That's the difficult

16:51

thing about relationships. If

16:53

you don't go for it, you don't get

16:55

good relationships. If you don't get

16:57

hurt, it's probably not

17:00

true love. But at the

17:02

same time, you're worried, you're always worried

17:04

about your children getting

17:06

hurt. But they

17:09

have to make their own mistakes. They

17:11

have to learn from their

17:14

own experience, which is, you know, you

17:16

can't really live their life for them.

17:19

So sometimes you just have to hope that they

17:21

do meet good people.

17:23

You put them in a relatively

17:26

good environment and

17:28

hope for the best way. I've

17:31

been talking to my daughter about

17:33

discretion, because we're starting to have

17:35

conversations about the birds and the

17:37

bees. And one of

17:39

the things that chatting to you has made me realize

17:41

is, well, safe spaces are really important. I need to

17:44

instill values in her that don't

17:46

age. They just stand the test

17:48

of time. And

17:50

I also need to get her to trust her

17:53

gut, just her instincts. But just in the context

17:55

of dating, if my

17:57

daughter is able to trust her instincts and say, It's

18:01

not on mum's list but there's something

18:03

really off about this guy or something's

18:05

off about the situation and

18:08

I have my values, there's things

18:10

that I will not compromise on. This is

18:13

not how I was raised and this is

18:15

not how I live my life and then

18:17

even if something does happen or she's just

18:19

having thoughts about something, there's a space where

18:21

she feels comfortable Yeah, that's really important. I

18:24

think we just have to treat

18:26

them as equals and also not a judge.

18:29

It's really important that she knows

18:31

that I would listen and we

18:33

can discuss. And

18:36

I guess another thing that's really

18:38

important is we need to

18:40

work on our relationships like me

18:42

and my husband. We show them a

18:45

conversion of a

18:47

good relationship of what it could look

18:49

like then they will

18:52

look for that version rather

18:54

than getting into abusive

18:56

relationships. In Hong Kong for

18:58

example, do you think it's

19:00

a place where your daughter can live in the

19:04

way that you're advising her to? Can she choose

19:06

to live her life in the way she

19:09

wants to and not be judged for not

19:11

following traditional roles? What's it like in Hong

19:13

Kong? I guess it

19:15

would take some courage for her to follow

19:19

my advice if she decides to follow

19:21

my advice. It's a mixture

19:23

of extremely traditional way

19:26

of like Chinese way

19:28

of life and also

19:31

extreme openness. I guess when I

19:33

was in my

19:35

high school, I still remember it quite

19:37

vividly. So I wrote a little essay

19:39

because it's titled, I have a

19:41

dream and said my dream

19:44

is to become a good mother.

19:47

So I think I was 16 or

19:49

17 and it

19:51

got published in like a

19:54

school album or something. But

19:56

then I got bullied and

19:59

I got bullied by girls. because I

20:01

said I want to be a group mother and I think it's

20:03

a very tough job. But

20:05

they were not thinking about that, they were thinking about

20:07

okay oh you want to get into a relationship, you

20:09

want to have sex and have children.

20:13

So that was quite traumatic,

20:15

an experience because I was

20:17

honestly thinking about motherhood

20:20

so I got judged. I

20:22

guess it's important to really

20:25

not worry about what

20:28

other people think because everybody will have

20:30

a different approach. And

20:32

I really want her to love herself

20:35

and have a good relationship with herself

20:37

before she could have good relationships

20:39

with others. You know if relationships

20:42

work out, they work out, if

20:44

they don't, they don't. The

20:47

most important relationship one

20:49

would ever have is actually the relationship

20:51

with oneself. I love how you've

20:54

just wrapped everything up for me nicely in

20:56

a boat like there's nothing left to

20:58

say. Can I just say

21:00

something? I love your voice,

21:03

it's so soothing and I

21:05

love the way you flesh

21:07

out everybody's story. It's

21:09

such a wonderful program. I just

21:11

want to thank you for creating

21:14

it, giving

21:16

us this safe space. This is

21:18

exactly what you do, giving us

21:20

the safe space. Thank

21:22

you, that means a lot to me to hear that. I

21:27

really enjoyed talking to Wen about this

21:29

long list of dating do's and don'ts

21:31

that she wrote out for her own

21:34

daughter. I think it's funny at times,

21:36

I think it's very real. Her

21:39

daughter might not listen to it, my daughter might not

21:42

care to hear any of it either but I

21:45

think the sentiment behind it is what's important. The

21:48

fact that you want to make

21:51

sure that your child is equipped with

21:53

what she needs in

21:56

the dating world and has fun while she's

21:59

dating. but is real to herself, is

22:03

true to the values that we have raised

22:06

her with, is

22:08

safe. I

22:10

think that's what's important. And I also

22:13

think that it's great that we had this conversation on

22:15

the almost a

22:17

year to the day anniversary of

22:20

the death of Abby Troy. So

22:22

I feel in a way we

22:24

are honoring her memory. Last

22:29

week on Dear Daughter, I'll be talking to Mary

22:31

in the US about the moment she decided to

22:33

leave home forever. I was

22:36

at a point looking at my daughter going,

22:38

I don't feel like she's gonna stay here.

22:40

So make sure you listen to the next

22:42

episode to find out more. And

22:44

I want your letters too. Remember,

22:47

we're creating a handbook to life

22:49

for daughters everywhere. What would you

22:52

like to share with your daughter or with

22:54

daughters everywhere? You can

22:56

send us an email on

22:58

deardaughter at bbc.co.uk. Or

23:01

you can go to our website www.bbcworldservice.com

23:07

slash deardaughter. Or

23:09

you can now send us a WhatsApp message on plus 44800

23:11

030 4404. And

23:18

please spread the word. Tell everyone

23:20

you know about Dear Daughter. Show them

23:22

where to find it, how to download

23:24

it, and how to follow or subscribe.

23:27

And leave us a review wherever you get your

23:30

podcasts. Dear Daughter is

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presented by me, Namalanta Kombo, and

23:34

produced by me and Natasha Fernandez with

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support from Lucy Burns and Maggie Karanja.

23:39

The editor is Claire Fordham. Mixed

23:41

by Sarah Hockley. Theme music

23:44

composed by Justin Nichols. Kat

23:46

Collins is a BBC World Service

23:48

Podcast producer and John Manel

23:51

is a Podcast Commissioning editor. See

23:54

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the answer is there are two colors and they

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