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It's so important yet so

0:51

hard to do. This episode

0:53

of Dear Daughter, we're talking about money.

1:04

I'm Namilanta Kombu, and this is my

1:07

podcast that I'm making with the BBC

1:09

World Service. I'm collecting

1:12

letters of advice and words of wisdom,

1:14

creating a handbook to life for daughters

1:17

everywhere. Dear daughter. My

1:19

dear daughter. Dear

1:22

daughter.

1:24

And

1:24

today, we have some really practical

1:26

advice for daughters about money.

1:29

How to talk to them about it. How to change

1:31

your own relationship with it.

1:34

and some stories about a very

1:36

inspirational grandma. Woo hoo!

1:41

Episode 6. Spend some.

1:43

Save some. Now

1:53

personally, I'm not great at talking

1:55

about money. Like a lot of people

1:57

it stresses me out and I used

1:59

to

2:00

to not talk about

2:01

it at all. So

2:03

I wanted to get some advice from someone who

2:05

really knows what they're talking about. Davinia

2:10

Tomlinson used to work in investment management.

2:14

She's got two daughters aged 8 and 5, and

2:17

she says the thing with money is not to think

2:19

about it as an end in itself, but

2:22

as a tool for doing what you want. So

2:24

I'm somebody that from a very small

2:26

child has always been quite visionary. missionary. I

2:29

know that there is this perception of us being

2:31

bean counters or obsessing over the

2:33

pennies and the pounds and that kind of thing. Whereas

2:36

actually in contrast to that, I grew up very much a daydreamer,

2:39

very much kind of big picture

2:40

thinker in terms of these are some of

2:42

the things and experiences that I would like to have

2:44

in my life. These are the things that are important to

2:46

me. These are some of the feelings that I would want to experience.

2:49

Divya, it's so nice to hear you speak because

2:52

guess where I went to university? Oh my gosh,

2:54

where? I went to Birmingham.

2:57

So it's taken me back. I did, I did.

2:59

I was there for four years. So

3:02

it really is taking me back. I feel like that's

3:04

amazing. Me

3:06

too. It's killing it for sure.

3:13

So Davini is a Brummie. She's from

3:15

Birmingham in the British Midlands. But

3:17

her family are from the island of St. Kitts

3:20

in the Caribbean. Yeah, you know,

3:22

despite me obviously being very Brummie,

3:24

as you can hear, It was a very classically

3:27

Caribbean immigrant upbringing. And

3:29

by that, I mean, we were

3:32

very working class, but there was

3:34

a real emphasis and focus on education.

3:37

Because of course, my parents,

3:39

and indeed my grandparents moved to

3:41

the UK,

3:43

specifically to pursue better opportunities

3:45

for their family. They were financing whole

3:48

villages quite often with the remittances

3:51

that they were sending back to the Caribbean and financing

3:53

their younger siblings' education, and all

3:55

sorts of things contributing to household expenses. and

3:58

so very much the focus for us.

4:00

as this kind of first wave

4:02

of British-born immigrants, if

4:04

you like, from immigrant backgrounds, was, you know,

4:06

we want you to have better opportunities than we

4:09

had, and we want you to excel.

4:11

Davinia went into the financial services industry

4:13

after university. She learned a

4:16

lot about how money works, but she

4:18

noticed that she was often the only woman of

4:20

color in the room. So

4:22

a few years ago, she set up her own

4:24

business called Raincheck, offering

4:27

financial advice for women to

4:29

share her knowledge. And then she

4:32

made a major life change. You

4:34

know, when I became a mom,

4:35

for me it was kind of working back from

4:37

what quality of life do we want to

4:39

have? Working and living in such

4:42

a way that work was not dominating

4:44

my life. I can't and will not work 15

4:46

hours a day anymore. I want to be

4:48

able to drop my children off at school at the normal time

4:50

and pick them up as soon as school finishes unless they have

4:53

extracurricular activities. And from

4:55

that comes the practicality around,

4:57

Right, what are the stepping stones? What financially

5:00

do I need to have in place in order to facilitate that?

5:02

She decided to take her daughter's back to

5:05

live in seed kits. And so it was a bit of a culture

5:07

shock for me, of course, moving from London, a

5:10

very bustling, vibrant city, to

5:13

a much gentler-paced island

5:15

environment. And how did

5:17

the girls take the move? Oh my goodness,

5:20

they have taken to it like a dock to water.

5:22

They started school within three

5:24

weeks of us moving out here, and

5:27

they have been flying ever since. They absolutely

5:29

love the freedom. They love the space. They

5:31

love the beach, of course.

5:32

Whereas I, in contrast,

5:34

it took me a full six months

5:37

to really start to settle down and

5:39

to, I suppose, decompress, not

5:42

just from lockdown stress, but also

5:44

from having spent 17 years of my life in a city

5:46

that I absolutely love. You know, London's one of my favorite cities

5:48

in the world, but the

5:51

London effect is undeniable. So if you're

5:53

moving from a city like London anywhere else

5:55

actually, I would say, the

5:58

impacts of it, right?

6:00

terms of how fast you speak, how

6:02

quickly you want to do things, how impatient

6:04

you become. So that certainly has taken

6:06

some getting used to, but the girls have been

6:08

thriving and it's really a joy to see. Well,

6:11

it must be such a nice way to raise kids like

6:13

in that slower pace. Yeah. I

6:15

mean, everybody's no London, but it is very

6:17

busy. And I often think now that

6:19

I have children think it would

6:21

be nice to just go somewhere that's a bit slower

6:24

and

6:25

I don't know, like get to know your kids a bit

6:27

better. So I dream of

6:29

doing it as well. Maybe one day, but do

6:32

you think maybe one day, do

6:35

you think your approach to money

6:38

helped

6:39

come to those type of decisions? Because I know a lot of the time

6:41

people are wondering about different

6:43

things. Where will I work? How will I be

6:45

able to support my family and these types of

6:47

things? Yeah, absolutely.

6:49

So I guess for me in building a digital business,

6:51

I could pick up that business and move it anywhere

6:53

in the world and continue to make a living. And

6:56

that has really helped smooth that path

6:58

and smooth our journey. And certainly from my perspective, massively

7:01

helped with my integration. Because as I say, my

7:03

daughters went into school, established

7:05

a group of friends, and I take them to play dates every weekend

7:07

and have done virtually every weekend for the

7:10

two years that we've been here. They had a social

7:12

network immediately established. I, on the other

7:14

hand, had to develop and forge one, and I'm still

7:16

developing that social network. But

7:18

at least I had my professional network intact.

7:21

and I had an ability to generate income.

7:23

No, it doesn't matter what side of the

7:25

world you're in. Saturdays are just... I'm

7:31

just driving. I'm just driving up and

7:33

down and picking up and dropping

7:36

off and it's just the same everywhere, I guess. But

7:38

yeah, it is a testament to how resilient kids are. I

7:42

love

7:43

that you've just talked about the practicalities, which

7:46

is something I'm going to ask you a bit about more,

7:49

you know after you read your letter so with

7:51

that said, Davinia could you please read the letter

7:54

that you have for us.

7:56

Absolutely.

8:04

Dear Daughters, today I want to talk

8:06

to you about money. You will soon

8:08

be 6 and 9 years old and are already

8:11

such smart cookies, so now feels

8:13

like the perfect time. In

8:15

fact, I'm already a bit late. Because

8:18

according to research done by one of the world's best

8:20

universities, children form their first

8:23

money habits by the age of 7. It's

8:26

crazy, isn't

8:27

You haven't even left home and got a job yet.

8:30

What could you possibly know about money? Well,

8:33

here's the thing. Your

8:34

mind is like a sponge, soaking

8:36

up information from so many different sources.

8:39

That includes what I say as

8:41

well as what I don't say. For

8:43

example, I didn't teach you how to go

8:45

through my makeup bag and put on all my lipstick,

8:48

but you become experts at doing just that. Nor

8:51

did I show you how to apply nail polish, but you've

8:53

mastered that too. How

8:55

I manage my money and what you're learning about

8:57

that is exactly the same. You're

9:00

learning how to save, how to spend

9:02

and how to use money to do the things you really

9:04

enjoy. But you're also learning

9:06

how to wait and that sometimes

9:09

even if we have the money to spend, we don't

9:11

have to spend it straight away because we're

9:13

waiting for a bigger reward later on. Deciding

9:17

whether to enjoy your money today or wait

9:19

for a bigger reward in future is one of

9:21

the best lessons I've learned about money over

9:23

the years.

9:27

This is something I need you to master early because

9:30

it will impact every other money decision

9:32

you make. Should you save

9:34

your money for a rainy day? Or blow

9:36

the budget and buy a brand new dress even

9:38

though you've got loads of others already? How

9:41

do you decide whether it's okay to enjoy the

9:43

money you've saved so diligently by treating

9:46

yourself to something on a whim? You're

9:48

already learning so much and I love

9:50

that whenever I ask you what you should do with your money

9:53

when you get it for your birthday or for Christmas,

9:55

you instantly respond, spend some

9:58

and save some.

10:00

so proud of you both girls. It's

10:02

a privilege to be your guide and teacher on

10:04

this journey. Love you, Mummy.

10:14

So what was that like growing up? You

10:16

know, what was your childhood like into young adulthood?

10:19

So I always say, you know, Caribbean culture by its very

10:21

nature is very matriarchal. When I think

10:24

back to my childhood, I have had and still have

10:26

a very close relationship with my maternal grandmother,

10:29

I'm fortunate enough to still have three living

10:31

grandparents, which, you know, I reflect

10:33

on every day as to, you know, what a, what

10:35

a privilege that is in terms of the insights

10:38

that I'm able to derive from them.

10:40

And I think that would probably be

10:42

the common thread throughout my childhood, which is

10:44

this real sense of self confidence,

10:46

this sense of pride in our heritage, and

10:49

using that as a foundation for going

10:51

out into the world and not shrinking, not

10:53

diminishing myself, not dimming my light. And

10:56

I really think that is testament to my grounding

10:58

within my family and the fact that they have always

11:01

poured so much love, confidence

11:03

and encouragement into me that I don't

11:06

need to look outside my family circle for those things,

11:08

if that makes sense. God,

11:11

that sounds amazing.

11:18

Is there one

11:19

person in the family that

11:22

put you on this path to wanting to

11:24

educate on finances and money especially

11:27

for women and

11:28

ethnic minorities. Definitely

11:30

my maternal grandmother was probably

11:32

the first person

11:35

that I knew who really set

11:37

or planted the seed of

11:38

what good financial management

11:40

looked like. And so, you know,

11:42

when I think back to, you know, this individual

11:45

who moved to Birmingham from

11:47

St. Kitts when she was just 22

11:50

years old, she's a mother of five, alongside

11:53

my late grandfather, that they were raising these

11:55

five children, but she also worked. But

11:57

yet, I don't remember a time growing up when I didn't

11:59

see.

12:00

her in the kitchen baking tasty

12:02

treats for us. I don't remember a time when

12:04

she wasn't actively involved in the upbringing of myself

12:06

and my cousins, whether it be babysitting

12:09

so our parents could go out. She opened my

12:11

first bank account for me. She was the

12:13

first person in my life who I knew had a

12:15

financial advisor. And so for me,

12:17

you know, my grandmother gave me the very best grounding

12:19

in the career that I would go on to build.

12:22

I mean, when I was building my business, she was one of my

12:24

biggest cheerleaders and still is to this day, but

12:27

she was also one of my first investors

12:30

in the business. My gran was always

12:32

somebody that was very well invested by virtue

12:34

of the fact that she'd worked with her financial advisor, but

12:36

she was very much the leader

12:38

in those discussions, and I would observe her growing

12:41

up. And again, that left an impression. You've got

12:43

this middle-aged Caribbean woman

12:45

and this very traditional,

12:48

the financial services and financial advice industry

12:51

in particular is dominated by

12:53

older white men and the relationship they

12:55

had was such a powerful one but

12:58

Peter, my grand's financial advisor, was almost

13:01

in my grand's thrall and he was very

13:03

much the steward, perhaps,

13:05

of the ship. My gran was the captain and

13:07

so she would decide the direction and

13:10

he would create the plan to facilitate

13:12

the ambition that my my gran had for herself.

13:17

I was

13:21

going to ask about practically, like, do

13:23

you remember at a younger age, aside from just watching

13:25

her, do you remember any one

13:28

thing that she would encourage you to do regarding

13:31

spending or saving?

13:34

Specifically on the saving front, I mean, I remember going

13:37

with her to set up my first savings account

13:40

and I distinctly remember doing that with her and not with my

13:42

parents and I remember having a conversation

13:44

with her on the way there and on the way back

13:46

and that was standard for us. She would take me to the bakery

13:48

and I'd sit and have one of those iced buns or something

13:51

bad for your teeth and she'd have a cup of

13:53

tea and we'd sit and have a conversation and and she would talk

13:55

me through what we were doing and the importance

13:58

of saving and and

14:00

how we were going to go

14:02

back to that bank every month and

14:04

deposit some money every single month and why it

14:06

was important to do that. But at the same

14:08

time, whilst there is that financial discipline,

14:11

which set the foundation, as I say, around, you know, make

14:13

sure that you are saving for later life

14:15

and, you know, saving for a rainy day. She

14:18

was also someone that was not so frugal that she

14:20

shied away from treating herself, treating us.

14:23

And so as a result of the money moves that she had

14:25

been able to make, she paid for my first computer,

14:27

meant that suddenly my

14:29

ability to complete my homework

14:31

projects was far greater than it would otherwise

14:34

have been. And so I think there are a number

14:36

of lessons, but specifically that lesson

14:38

around saving your money, but also

14:40

her leading by example in, as a result

14:43

of me having a good grasp of my finances,

14:45

I'm able to buy you that computer. I'm not going

14:47

into debt to buy you that computer. So

14:49

her relationship with debt was always something, and

14:51

I think it's probably symbolic of that entire

14:54

generation really, that perhaps they couldn't get

14:56

access to credit in the first place. And so they had to create

14:58

their own innovations like partner hand, which

15:00

is a very Caribbean thing. But effectively,

15:02

it's a form of cooperative or credit union so you can

15:05

support one another in maybe investing

15:07

in bigger

15:08

items by pooling your resources.

15:11

And so for my grand, the idea of paying for anything

15:14

using debt was a taboo. So that was

15:16

something that I learned early on

15:18

as well, that debt wasn't something to be taken lightly,

15:20

that if you wanted to make a particular

15:23

purchase that you should do so on the basis of money

15:25

that you've saved first of all. What did you call

15:27

it in the Caribbean? What's it called? Partner

15:30

hand.

15:31

Partner hand. So I think it's what

15:33

in Kenya we call a merry-go-round. So it's

15:36

a group of women usually, or men. Yes.

15:39

And you each put in an amount every month.

15:42

And then each person benefits

15:44

from receiving that money. And

15:46

it just goes around in that way. Is that the same thing? Okay,

15:49

it's the same concept. I think in West Africa, they call it

15:51

SUSU. But yeah, it's the same thing.

15:54

Okay, okay. Like I say, it's the

15:56

we're just living the same, the same life. They're

15:58

the same people. defense

16:05

So my mom is an accountant and

16:09

I am not. I am definitely, I feel like it

16:11

skips a generation because my

16:14

daughter is quite good at math and I'm thinking

16:16

wow where did this come from but it's obviously

16:18

from from her grandmother and

16:21

she did her best but I feel like for

16:23

me I was afraid of numbers

16:25

from a young age because I wasn't great with math and

16:28

I feel like I tended to shy away from it.

16:31

So I was just wondering what you think

16:33

women's relationship with

16:35

money is like in general, obviously it's not the

16:37

same across the board, but historically

16:40

and now, what is our relationship

16:43

with money like from what you've seen? The

16:45

thing that I hear quite commonly from women as a result of

16:47

being potentially, and it's not always

16:49

as extreme as this, but you know for lots of us

16:51

being scarred by our experiences of

16:54

never really fully understanding maths or perhaps

16:56

not having teachers who had the

16:58

patience to break it down or position it in such

17:00

a way that everybody could understand. And

17:03

so as a result there is a lot of internalised

17:05

psychological

17:05

fear and I think for young

17:07

women when we think about all of the influences and

17:10

the messages that we are bombarded with is that they should

17:12

stay in their lane. We certainly shouldn't be talking

17:14

about money because it's masculine and potentially

17:16

it's vulgar and sometimes we hear those

17:19

messages in the household but

17:21

in Amalanta even yourself you are managing

17:23

numbers and working with numbers every day whether or not

17:25

you acknowledge that. Every time you were paid

17:27

I'm sure you would know if you were underpaid,

17:29

I'm sure you would know if you were overpaid, when you

17:32

receive a bonus you probably earmarked what

17:34

am I going to do with that bonus

17:35

and so we are managing money all of the time and

17:37

the thing that I always try to stress is that

17:40

don't be afraid of something that you are doing subconsciously

17:42

anyway, you already have an attitude it's

17:44

just about unlocking it within yourself

17:47

and almost giving yourself the permission to

17:50

plug any gaps in what you don't already know. I

17:52

think that's very useful to hear, you

17:54

know, that it is a psychological

17:56

stumbling block. just talk you about

17:58

now like literally this morning I

18:01

was literally shopping, you know, doing the house

18:03

shopping and my mind was calculating

18:05

everything really, really fast because

18:07

it's something I have to do on a weekly basis. I have

18:10

to manage the weekly shop and you know, yes,

18:12

the economy here is so

18:14

the inflation is crazy. And you know

18:16

what I spent last year compared to what I'm spending this

18:18

year, I have to find ways to make it

18:20

work. So I'm doing it anyway. There

18:23

you go.

18:24

So that's really useful for me in

18:26

terms of what I can do with

18:29

my own finances. And

18:31

like you say, it's more of a psychological

18:33

shift that I need to make. But

18:36

what are the practical tips that I can then give my kids?

18:38

Yeah, definitely. What I want to remind them is that

18:41

I want you to think of money as a tool. The money itself

18:43

is not imbued with any power, either positively

18:45

or negatively, because what we don't want is

18:48

our young people to have a fraught relationship

18:50

with money or to think I think, you know, any pound

18:52

that I get, I get, I have to stash it away

18:54

and never to see the light of day again,

18:57

unless there's a big catastrophe. Because again, you're

18:59

kind of planting this kind of catastrophist

19:01

mindset into our children that money

19:03

is something that is associated with doom and

19:06

unforeseen circumstances. Instead, what we

19:08

want is to say it is what we do

19:10

with the money that of course gives it its power.

19:12

And so I want you to think of money as something that

19:15

could potentially be your safety net, as

19:17

something that could be a source of comfort, a source

19:19

of joy, but that could also potentially help you

19:21

achieve some of the bigger life goals that you have for

19:23

yourself like buying a house, like going

19:26

off to university, moving abroad, whatever it may be.

19:29

The other thing I think that parents can do, if you're in a position

19:31

to pay pocket money, because there was a brilliant study

19:33

that showed actually those

19:35

children who receive pocket

19:37

money have a 25% higher financial

19:39

literacy rate than those

19:42

children that don't receive pocket money. And

19:44

probably the reason for that is because you are giving them

19:46

as young people the opportunity to familiarise themselves

19:48

with their own money and to to assert their own

19:50

financial independence.

22:00

For me, it was based on not

22:02

being great at maths when I was younger,

22:05

but she's made me realize

22:07

that in my everyday life, whether it's

22:09

doing the weekly shopping or calculating

22:13

the probability of my son falling off

22:15

the sofa and hurting himself, I

22:17

have been dealing with numbers. I have been

22:19

doing maths every single day, especially

22:22

in my adult life. So I'm

22:25

really glad that I've spoken to her

22:27

and it's definitely one of the things that

22:29

I would love to talk to my daughter about that the

22:31

way you have thought of yourself in the

22:34

past does not have to be the way that you think of yourself

22:36

now

22:36

or even in the future. And

22:38

when it comes to money, Divinia

22:41

has also written a book called Cash is Queen,

22:43

which has more advice for girls about money.

22:46

The other thing that's great about talking to Divinia is

22:49

realizing that I need to have a bigger picture. So

22:51

seeing what you want in five, 10, 15, 20 years and

22:55

starting to work towards it, I'm actually

22:57

starting to think about retirement because,

22:59

you know,

23:00

what do I want? How do I want to live when my kids

23:03

are out of the home? How do I want to afford

23:05

my lifestyle? I do not want to

23:07

burden my children with

23:10

my expenses. So for me, that is my bigger

23:12

picture. And that's what I'll be working

23:14

towards.

23:24

Next

23:24

time on Dear Daughter, instead

23:27

of speaking to someone who has written a letter,

23:30

I'll be hearing what it means to receive

23:32

one. It was good to have like a

23:34

piece of paper and not a voice

23:37

memo or an email. I also

23:39

have written letters of it that I could

23:41

squeeze and, you know, like

23:44

a piece of fire. I also felt relief

23:46

that she was supporting my decision of moving

23:48

overseas, of fighting for my dreams.

23:55

and

24:00

Lucy Burns with support from Charlotte

24:02

McDonald and Maggie Carranjo. The

24:05

editor is Claire Fordham, mixed

24:07

by Neil Churchill. Theme

24:09

music composed by Justin Nichols.

24:12

Prabhjit Bains is a BBC

24:14

World Service podcast producer, and

24:16

John Manel is a podcast commissioning editor.

24:19

See you next time.

24:36

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