0:03

Welcome to Dear Daughter with me,

0:05

Namulanta Kombo. Podcasts

0:08

from

0:08

the BBC World Service are supported

0:11

by advertising. Hello

0:13

and welcome back to Dear Daughter live

0:16

from the BBC World Service. We're

0:18

here in Nairobi, Kenya. And

0:23

here's the host of Dear Daughter,

0:25

Namulanta Kombo.

0:31

Hello and welcome. This

0:33

is the second of two live episodes about the world

0:35

of dating and relationships. And the advice we all want to

0:38

give not just our own daughters, but to daughters

0:40

everywhere. And

0:45

also on stage with me throughout, and thank you for introducing

0:47

me, is one of the BBC presenters in

0:50

Kenya, Maya Hayekawa. So I'm so sad that

0:52

this is the last episode of season

0:54

two. But I'm

0:56

happy to be recording it here in my hometown of Nairobi. Nairobi

0:59

is a metropolis, a city that truly never sleeps and is the

1:01

heartbeat of Kenya. From

1:04

the tree lined streets to the Nairobi

1:06

blue skyline, I couldn't be more proud to call this home.

1:10

Me, I love Nairobi. Absolutely.

1:18

And of course, we

1:20

are joined by this lovely, lovely audience. Now,

1:23

Namulanta, before

1:25

everyone sat down, we asked them to write

1:27

on sticky notes their dating advice. Basically, their do's

1:29

and their don'ts and their best and their worst

1:31

experiences. So

1:34

I'd like to take you through some of them. And

1:38

this one says, do be kind to the waitstaff

1:40

genuinely and don't order

1:42

for your date. So

1:46

yeah, who said this? I'm really curious.

1:48

That was you? So

1:50

much pressure. Okay,

2:00

okay, so it's good to be kind to the wait

2:02

stuff. Like

2:08

say your please, say your thank you when you're getting the

2:10

order. And when I say genuinely, don't

2:13

like lay it on thick and be

2:15

like, oh, thank you so much. I

2:18

really love your service. I mean, just

2:20

be genuine and don't flirt

2:21

also because now your date is like, are

2:24

we on the date? Or it's also

2:26

the waitresses on the date with us. Yeah,

2:29

so that's it. Thank you. No,

2:32

that piece of advice really reminds me of what my

2:34

mother used to tell me as well, because she used to say,

2:36

you know, how someone

2:38

else treats like let's say a waiter

2:41

or a guard, you know, ends up treating you

2:43

the same way. So it's kind of like a little sneak

2:45

peek into how they would treat you in the end, right? And

2:48

then there's this other one that

2:50

says, date without the expectation

2:53

of defining anything, deciding

2:56

anything or achieving anything

2:59

other than joy

3:00

and truth with each other. And

3:02

then in caps, tequila. Is

3:07

there a story behind that? Who is it? Who

3:09

is it? Aha.

3:12

And they are married. Yeah, we are married.

3:14

They are married. Yes,

3:17

we are married thanks to tequila. First

3:21

of all, you have to know yourself. You have

3:23

to understand what you want and what gives

3:25

you joy and what is your honest truth.

3:27

And we also forget that dating is fun. It's

3:29

supposed to be fun. You're supposed to get to know

3:31

each other somewhat

3:34

in a relaxed manner, but it's difficult to do

3:36

that. So that's why I said, don't come

3:38

into that dating game heavy. Don't

3:40

come already deciding, I am trying to

3:43

find the, you know, like already

3:45

just give yourself the space, give the other

3:47

person the space, because they also are in a

3:49

very

3:50

unfamiliar situation. And just have

3:52

fun, hence the tequila. Ah,

3:56

now that makes sense, doesn't it? All

3:58

right, now, Melanta, back to you.

3:59

Yes, so we've got new

4:02

letters, great new letters and two

4:04

new writers. We have my good friend Daisy

4:06

who'll be talking about how to keep relationships

4:09

going. But

4:10

first, here's

4:12

someone with a story about how not

4:14

to have a first date. Welcome,

4:17

Meinam Arumba. He's a comedian.

4:19

He's

4:24

a comedian and will be telling us about his

4:26

dating experiences. He has no daughters

4:29

of his own but it sounds like he knows a

4:31

bit about other people's daughters. So

4:36

Meinam,

4:38

you're addressing your letter to who? Your

4:40

future daughter. Who's this letter for?

4:42

To all the daughters in the world. Let's

4:45

go. Okay. So

4:48

my name is This is Meinam. This is my daughter to

4:50

daughters. Dear

4:53

daughter slash niece. It's

4:59

about being inclusive.

5:02

This is a story about how I lost my date.

5:04

It was back when I was

5:06

a freshman, excited

5:09

to be in uni and be finally

5:12

free to partake of life as we should.

5:14

You can drink as much

5:16

as you like and stay out as long

5:18

as you wanted. To the little

5:20

heaven. To

5:23

the last weekend of the semester and

5:25

just basically closing party season

5:28

and I couldn't be more excited. A

5:31

friend of mine was having a party and

5:33

I was particularly looking forward to this one because

5:35

I had a smoking hot date and

5:39

I couldn't wait for my friends to see. I

5:43

did my usual pregame before the party I

5:46

took a few shots to get things going. I

5:49

met up with my dates and

5:51

she was looking lovely and

5:54

we set out for this glorious

5:56

party. I was a little late.

6:00

and a few of my friends were already there. And

6:03

most of them were shocked to see me with

6:05

a date for the very first time. So

6:08

I did my usual lap of honor, high-fiving

6:12

my homies, giving

6:15

a nod here and there, you know, the finger

6:17

pointing. I

6:20

was on top of the world. I

6:23

must have taken one too many shots because

6:25

the next thing I remember was

6:28

waking up on Sunday. Spartie

6:32

started on Friday. I

6:38

think I was a bit too excited. My

6:41

friends told me I was drinking like it was my birthday.

6:45

So my friends were filling me in since I didn't know

6:47

what happened. And

6:49

they told me that I managed to pull off the impossible.

6:53

I blocked out comfortably in the corner

6:56

and my dates left with my friend. Suddenly

7:00

those high fives didn't seem too high-fiving.

7:05

Of

7:05

course my friends never missed a chance to laugh at

7:07

me and make fun of me.

7:09

A lot of silly things will happen

7:12

as you grow older and experience the dating

7:14

world with all its goodies. And

7:17

I hope you never take yourself too seriously and

7:19

you're able to take the good and the bad in good

7:22

humor because life is a dance that's

7:24

meant to be enjoyed.

7:26

Yours truly, Meinne Rumba. Meinne,

7:37

Meinne, Meinne. How

7:39

did you let this happen? I didn't

7:43

know

7:44

about hydrating

7:46

in between shots. I should have

7:48

eaten fast. You know everything people do so that you

7:51

make your night last long. I should have done

7:53

all those things.

7:53

So first off, can we agree that

7:56

that was probably not your friend? I

7:59

think I would disagree. I think they're still my,

8:01

because I've done that to someone also. And

8:06

that person is still my friend. So,

8:11

tell me how it works. Just tell me from a male perspective,

8:13

how does that, there's no code?

8:15

Because you see, it wasn't like it was a relationship

8:17

that I had with this, with this

8:20

girl. It was just a,

8:22

it was like a date that I was hoping maybe to get

8:25

to go father a bit. So

8:29

it's not as serious as my friendship with

8:31

that guy is way deeper than that. It's been longer

8:33

and yeah, it's just

8:36

a bad day.

8:38

So this is interesting because I

8:41

have been out of it, but I'm interested to know more

8:43

about the Nairobi dating scene. So

8:46

let's get into that. Tell,

8:49

tell me what's happening.

8:51

It's obviously not easy dating

8:54

in Nairobi. I'm sure all of you guys know that. It

8:57

feels like it's a small world and everybody

8:59

knows each other and finding your

9:02

way is not the easiest thing. You

9:04

don't know the traumas that people have gone through. Many

9:06

people have been, as you say, character developed.

9:10

It's a maze. They're trying to figure that out.

9:12

So because there are people listening from all over

9:14

the world, tell us about character

9:17

development, the Kenyan version,

9:19

character development.

9:21

I think everyone has to go through

9:23

that. It's where you are taught

9:25

that

9:27

your feelings, only your family care about.

9:32

And then you enter the dating pool. Like you

9:34

leave your feelings outside because

9:37

your heart will be stepped on.

9:39

You're going to get hearts. You will

9:41

but that's part of the learning experience,

9:43

knowing what you don't like, what you like, things that

9:46

work, things that don't. I think

9:48

it's an important

9:49

step for everyone to have gone through. Kenya

9:52

Institute of Character Development. That's the

9:54

official education.

9:57

Higher

9:57

learning. KICD,

10:01

thank you. So

10:05

do you have any graduates? Yeah. I

10:09

can see many alumni. Are

10:15

you a graduate? You admitted to being a graduate.

10:18

I'm now the vice chancellor.

10:21

Tell us about your institutes. What

10:24

happened? So many things. So

10:27

many things. Like I talk about

10:29

dating in Nairobi, which is an extreme

10:31

sport. You need divine

10:34

help. You need human beings.

10:36

You need your peers. You need mentors. You

10:39

need schooling. You need good food,

10:41

diet, CMOS. You need coconut

10:43

oil, gorilla glue for your heartbreak.

10:47

I think Nairobi, like dating

10:50

in Nairobi is a beautiful

10:51

thing. The character development.

10:54

If you can look back and laugh at yourself and

10:56

sort of like commiserate with people in laughter,

10:59

it builds character.

11:00

You are strong. Yeah. And

11:03

you can just meet people, you know, and look and you just see each other.

11:05

You're like, yeah, you do. Yeah. Yeah.

11:08

Same. Same. So

11:11

it's beautiful. You see the pain in their eyes, but that's

11:13

a really good segue into something I wanted to ask you,

11:15

Meinne, which is about humor,

11:17

which you have

11:19

talked about in your letter. Don't take yourself too seriously.

11:22

So what has humor done for you

11:24

in your life? In my life. You

11:27

need to be able to kind of laugh at yourself because bad things

11:29

will always happen. So that's

11:31

a good way to kind of sometimes get over

11:33

something that's difficult. As bad

11:35

as things get, you can always cause, you know,

11:38

like they say, we're not living this world alive.

11:40

So it's never

11:42

that serious. So if it's not that serious,

11:45

then it means you can take a laugh. You can laugh at yourself.

11:47

You can go through things without, you

11:49

know, agonizing about every

11:52

little.

11:52

That's another great Kenyanism. It's

11:57

never that serious. Daisy, what do you think? about

12:01

KICD. Back

12:04

in the Middle Ages when I was dating, I

12:07

mean it's been 12 years since I was

12:09

in the dating scene. Listening

12:12

to these stories gives me a mix

12:14

of relief that I'm not

12:17

in the field playing anymore, but

12:19

also dread because these children

12:22

and daughters that we are writing letters to

12:25

will most probably be dating in this

12:27

context. And Mayena

12:30

mentioned trauma, so I hope

12:32

this traumatized generation of

12:35

daters, we are going

12:38

to bring up

12:40

a generation of people that are more

12:43

datable than we were, breaking

12:46

the cycle type of thing and having healthy

12:48

conversations about dating.

12:51

Yeah, because I'm

12:52

always asking my single friends like, why? Why

12:55

are you single? And they look at me like, shut up.

12:57

You have nothing to contribute

12:59

yet. It's wild out here. So

13:02

thank you, Mayena, for your letter. It

13:04

was amazing.

13:05

Now, I think that it was really

13:07

brilliant just hearing from Daisy. I think I heard you

13:10

say that you haven't been

13:12

in the dating scene for the last 12 years. So

13:15

that gives us a bit of hope, right? All

13:17

of us in our character

13:19

development phase, there's something to look forward

13:21

to, which is making our

13:24

relationship last, right? So

13:27

we're going to hear from Daisy with her

13:29

second and final letter. But before

13:32

we hear that letter, we

13:35

also asked the audience this question. We

13:37

asked, how do you make relationships

13:39

last? And Namlata, what I found

13:42

really interesting is that three people actually

13:44

wrote patience, patience and patience.

13:49

This is just one of those pieces of advice

13:51

where it sounds easy. It sounds really

13:53

easy for you to be patient, but when you find

13:55

yourself in that situation, when you find yourself in

13:58

really questionable situations, situations, it might

14:00

not be as easy for you to show

14:03

some patience. Now,

14:05

Melantha, I'll just read one more over

14:08

here. It says, have similar hobbies

14:10

and or personalities. It makes

14:12

it easier to have fun and enjoy similar

14:14

things in life. This is in addition

14:16

to having a romantic connection. What do you

14:18

think?

14:20

No, I don't think so. I don't think

14:22

so. But when I don't

14:24

have an answer, I usually ask my mom. Oh,

14:26

OK. So let's look for dorkers.

14:31

What's the answer? I

14:33

think it's not like.

14:37

You've got to be exactly the same. That's

14:39

very boring. But

14:42

what you don't want is each one of you

14:44

to impose too much

14:47

on the other one. You got to balance.

14:50

And you got to give each other time

14:53

for the other person to grow where

14:55

they want to go so long as ultimately where

14:58

the destination or the journey is beneficial

15:00

for both of you.

15:07

That

15:10

is a good time to move on to

15:12

our second letter with my

15:14

friend Daisy, who you may remember from season

15:16

one, where we spoke about how

15:19

she will talk to her daughter about sex.

15:22

And if you want to hear that interview, you can also

15:24

check out all our past episodes.

15:26

And so Daisy, today you're talking about something

15:28

even more complicated than sex. You've

15:30

written a letter to your daughter about making a marriage

15:32

last.

15:34

Yes, kind

15:37

of. So Daisy, please

15:39

read us your letter. So

15:42

my daughter's name is Netay. Dear

15:45

Netay, you are

15:48

five and a half years old and

15:50

full of love. One

15:52

day you will read this, my

15:54

letter to you, about a different

15:57

kind of love, love in marriage.

16:00

When I was growing up, grandmas

16:02

and aunties at every wedding

16:05

made it seem like marriage is a struggle

16:08

to be endured. Muay-tay-n,

16:11

they told the bride, which means,

16:14

persevere. I

16:17

don't think that they were right to paint a miserable

16:19

picture of marriage. Their message

16:21

should have been that, yes, there

16:24

will be some problems. But

16:26

marriage can be one of the most beautiful

16:29

life experiences one can have.

16:32

After almost eight years of marriage,

16:34

here are some things I have come to learn. The

16:37

first is that kindness

16:40

should be a non-negotiable

16:42

foundation of your marriage. In

16:44

fact, kindness must feature

16:46

prominently when you're choosing a partner.

16:49

After all, we are raising you

16:51

to be kind, and you really are. Show

16:55

unconditional kindness to each other in

16:57

the best of times, but especially

17:00

in the worst of times.

17:02

Which brings me to the second thing, tough times.

17:06

Trust me, all marriages

17:09

are far from perfect. Do

17:11

not see turbulence as a catastrophic

17:14

signal to jump ship. Overcoming

17:17

marital difficulties together birthed

17:20

strength and magnificent beauty.

17:23

But I must tell you that there are limits to

17:25

perseverance. Abuse,

17:29

exploitation, and oppression

17:31

should not be tolerated. The

17:34

third thing is that it is important

17:37

to retain your personal pursuits. Ideally, your partner will become

17:40

an enabler for your ambitions, for your passions,

17:42

and for your interests. And

17:46

you will be theirs. There

17:49

will be compromise at different points,

17:52

but marriage should not be an ultimate

17:54

aspiration for which you abandon your dreams. Lastly,

17:57

I want to thank you

17:58

for your support.

17:59

I want you to know that marriage can be a blessing.

18:03

With it, you will get an eternal

18:05

best friend, an ally

18:07

in every battle, the playmate

18:10

of a lifetime, and

18:12

a safe, permanent home where

18:15

you can be vulnerable. Like

18:18

every parent, I wish for

18:20

this and more for you. Love

18:23

you always, your mama Daisy. Thank

18:26

you so much, Daisy. Now

18:35

I think there are very many expectations that

18:38

we inflict on ourselves, and

18:40

then there are those that society imposes on

18:43

us. You either have to live

18:45

happily ever after,

18:47

or endure

18:49

everything terrible in marriage.

18:52

Tell me about Mui Ten.

18:54

Mui Ten is

18:56

a phenomenon

18:58

that I think I should give context to. So I

19:01

grew up in this wonderful place called

19:03

Kiricho, and we went to a lot

19:05

of weddings growing up, simply because we all

19:08

had big beautiful families.

19:10

And there was a very

19:12

distinct pattern of messaging

19:15

that was always specifically

19:18

directed to the bride, which

19:20

is Mui Ten, persevere. And

19:23

the message was, you're getting

19:26

into marriage, things will

19:28

be tough, but stick

19:30

it out. Stay put, there

19:33

is no exit clause.

19:35

So the aunties and the grandmas

19:38

who deliver this message, I know they

19:40

meant well, because they themselves are

19:43

a product of this society

19:46

that told them themselves when they were

19:48

young brides to Mui Ten

19:50

and to stay put. But the problem is

19:53

this messaging gives rise to a very, to

19:56

dysfunction, let me say to dysfunction in

19:58

multiple ways.

20:00

First of all, it is these same aunties

20:03

and grandmas who before this

20:05

wedding, before this bride met this man, kept

20:08

expressing their concern about her

20:10

prospects. You know, when is this man coming? You're approaching 30.

20:14

Where is he? You're approaching 40. Things

20:16

are looking really bad. So you're making a big

20:19

decision and you have a time

20:21

limit for it. So it is quite probable that

20:23

you will make mistakes.

20:25

The other dysfunction

20:27

that I think this kind

20:29

of messaging caused

20:32

is that it, me as a young girl, I'm

20:34

internalizing this message, but who else is

20:36

listening? My male counterparts,

20:39

young boys, the groom is listening. And

20:43

the message that he would get is that

20:45

you have a free pass, right?

20:48

Your levels of accountability are lowered because you

20:50

know that this bride that you're taking home with you

20:53

is going to stay put, whether you become

20:55

a raging alcoholic, whether you are a serial

20:57

philanderer,

20:58

she's not going anywhere. So

21:00

what does this do? It just perpetuates a

21:03

cycle of bad marriages. But

21:05

then lastly, and I know this

21:07

is a long answer,

21:09

but lastly and

21:12

ironically, the same

21:15

grandmas and aunties who are delivering

21:17

this messages in this generation

21:19

when I was growing up were also quite

21:21

progressive because they were part of a family that was

21:24

bringing up a generation of women who are going to become

21:26

independent. You know, they worked

21:28

very hard to afford these young girls opportunities

21:31

that would give them financial

21:34

independence, but also would expand

21:36

their worldview so that they get

21:38

to this point where they're understanding, oh, there

21:40

are other options beyond returning,

21:43

beyond to persevere a

21:45

marriage or a relationship that's not working

21:47

for me. So what was the manifestation

21:49

of all this? Statistically where

21:52

I come from in Kericha, if you compare the longevity

21:54

of our parents and their peers, their marriages,

21:57

and of our generation, there's a huge

21:59

disparity. Our parents are married 30, 40,

22:03

50 years and in my generation

22:05

you're

22:06

lucky if you hit the seven-year

22:09

mark, the ten-year mark and it's because

22:11

of this cycle

22:14

of dysfunction. Give

22:16

it up.

22:22

So what is the message that you're giving Natai

22:25

if she one day has to come to you for

22:27

advice about perhaps a rocky

22:29

patch in her marriage?

22:31

Yeah, the thing about marriage

22:34

and relationships is that they are highly

22:36

complicated so the advice

22:38

that I would give to her when she comes to me will be

22:40

dependent on the situation, it will be highly situational

22:43

but another element of

22:45

wholeness and I think somebody

22:47

else mentioned it before and I also mention

22:50

it in my letter is

22:52

retaining your personal pursuits,

22:55

retaining your passions. What

22:58

this does to relationships is that

23:00

it removes

23:03

this element of neediness,

23:05

right? And I read it in this book

23:07

by Dr. Esther Perel

23:10

called meeting in captivity. She

23:13

says nothing kills

23:16

passion and eroticism

23:20

in particularly a marriage than

23:23

having a partner that is so dependent

23:26

on you or if there's a codependency

23:29

because that

23:31

neediness evokes the

23:34

thought and concept of parenting.

23:37

Who wants to think about their parents when they're passionate,

23:39

you know? So she

23:42

says fire needs

23:44

air and relationships, specifically

23:47

marriage, needs space, right?

23:49

And you only generate that space

23:52

if you have your personal interests, your personal,

23:54

your pursuits, your hobbies and

23:57

it serves to enrich the relationship as

23:59

well. You have to

23:59

more to talk about and you have more to share

24:02

when your life is multi-dimensional

24:05

outside of your partner.

24:07

I see mine are nodding away

24:09

there. Daisy

24:12

has touched on red flags. There's

24:14

some definitely some red flags in dating

24:17

and in a marriage that you need to look out for before

24:19

you get married. Right, yeah. Before you get

24:21

married.

24:23

Tell me about your flags. How red are they?

24:25

What are they? And how do you feel about that

24:27

whole concept? Is it restrictive

24:29

in dating?

24:30

One red flag I'd said is have

24:32

someone who's not obedient. Like

24:38

that's a deal breaker. Is this humor?

24:40

No, I'm joking. No,

24:46

obviously there are red flags. Super

24:50

serious. Maybe their question is whether

24:52

to weigh them or something, whether something

24:55

is a deal breaker or not. I

24:57

feel like maybe in the dating scene, right

24:59

now in Nairobi, things are moving too quickly.

25:02

People can be

25:04

too quick to not give someone a chance or to walk

25:07

out or something too quickly because you just notice, you're

25:10

doing this and that means that we can't

25:12

walk. So we don't have the same, I

25:14

guess, patience that maybe that

25:16

our parents and older generations had. I feel

25:19

like, yes, it's good. Like there's red flags

25:21

and that's a real thing. But

25:24

there's also a space to learn

25:26

someone and grow

25:29

and evolve with them. And yeah, I

25:31

think that's also a good thing.

25:34

And our amazing audience, Maya,

25:37

have been sharing their views and experiences. So

25:39

what else have we got? That's right. Let's see if there's

25:41

anything else. I think I'd like to read

25:43

this one out for

25:45

a married couple. They've been married

25:48

for

25:49

two months. Let's give it up for them.

25:51

That's

25:53

amazing. Congratulations

25:55

to Christian and Nora

25:57

and wishing you guys a really long life.

26:00

lasting marriage, but then their advice

26:02

on a lasting marriage is communication,

26:05

laugh together, play together and enjoy

26:08

each other.

26:09

Very simple. I love it. Let's

26:11

give it up for everyone. Whether

26:14

you're single or in a relationship,

26:16

engaged or married,

26:19

it's just

26:20

a beautiful thing to be able to share our

26:22

experiences and give each other tips and

26:25

you know just help each other. Well

26:28

that's it for our Dear Daughter Live recording

26:30

from here. Nairobi.

26:39

Thank you very much everybody. Thank you Maya

26:41

once again and to the lovely audience here.

26:44

It's been okay

26:45

for anyone who knows me, you're so surprised to see

26:47

me here, right? Doing this.

26:50

It's been a journey of growth for me and I'm

26:52

really

26:53

living in the moment. I'm really enjoying

26:55

myself and I'm really grateful that you

26:58

guys are here to witness it and all

27:00

the support, all the messages, all

27:02

the people that have listened to the podcast, all the people that have written

27:05

letters, I'm really grateful. What I've learned

27:07

is

27:08

sometimes growth is in the small things. It's

27:10

not like I need to lose weight and

27:12

I've lost 10 kgs. It's

27:15

in me deciding that I'm going to try this

27:17

and I'm here. It's in me

27:21

trying to do better as I'm doing this podcast

27:24

and it's in me patting myself on the back and not being

27:26

so hard on myself

27:28

and saying well done. So thank you very much.

27:33

To all our wonderful listeners and

27:35

letter writers from around the world, thank you for

27:37

making my podcast such a success. It's

27:41

the end of the second season but we hope we'll

27:43

be back for season three.

27:49

You've been listening to Dear Daughter Live

27:51

recorded here in Nairobi, Kenya. I'm

27:54

Namlanta Kombu. Thank you and good night.

28:01

Dear Daughter Live was presented by me, Namulanta

28:04

Kombu, and moderated by Maya Hayakawa.

28:07

The producers were Charlotte McDonald, Lucy

28:09

Burns and Maggie Karanja. The

28:12

editor was Claire Fordham, sound

28:14

by Neil Churchill with support from Mbarak

28:16

Mohammed Abdullah and Hilary Kumatai.

28:19

Production support from Brendan Amidi,

28:22

Siobhan Reed and Sophie Hill. The

28:25

World Service Podcast producer

28:26

was Prabhjit Bains. The World

28:29

Service Podcast Commissioner was John Manel.