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at hellofresh.com. Your

1:09

daughter. My dear daughter. To

1:11

my dearest only daughter. You're

1:15

listening to Dear Daughter with me, Namulanta

1:17

Kombo from the BBC World Service. And

1:20

today, we have two letters. My

1:22

dear daughter. Dear mother. And

1:25

a conversation about how two people

1:27

in the same family can see

1:29

the same situation differently. With

1:31

a mother and a daughter in India, looking

1:34

back at growing up in a big,

1:36

multigenerational household. Now,

1:40

ever since I spoke to my father a

1:42

few episodes back, we've been getting letters and

1:44

comments from listeners about similar journeys that they've

1:46

been on with their parents. Kemi

1:49

in London got in touch about her relationship

1:51

with her Nigerian dad. And

1:53

she's helping him with his memoirs as well. We

1:56

had an estranged, turbulent relationship for many

1:58

years in the past. But now

2:00

he's had a complete turnaround, to the extent

2:02

he now calls me his bestie. At

2:05

heart we had two peas in a pod,

2:07

my mum had always said it. And

2:11

an anonymous listener in Kenya sent a message

2:13

to our WhatsApp to say, Being

2:15

present in your children's life at their formative

2:18

age is the greatest gift you can ever

2:20

give them. If you've

2:22

got thoughts on that episode or any of our others,

2:24

drop us a line. You can

2:26

send us a WhatsApp message or a voice note to

2:28

plus 44800 030 4404, or

2:35

an email to deardaughter at

2:37

bbc.co.uk. I

2:47

wonder if it might be universal for parents to look

2:49

back at the decisions that they've made, and

2:52

wonder if they made the right choices. This

2:55

episode is about a letter Malini

2:57

sent us from India, that's on a similar theme.

3:00

She wishes she'd done things a lot

3:02

differently. I can hear a

3:04

lot of regret in your letter. Yes, my middle

3:06

name is regret. But

3:09

Malini also introduced us to the daughter she

3:11

was writing to, and she saw

3:13

things in a different light. I

3:16

think you should stop beating yourself up

3:18

over these things, it is all in

3:20

the past. In the end, I've turned

3:22

out quite alright, actually more than alright.

3:24

And while regret might be common to a lot of

3:26

parents, each situation is unique

3:29

in its own way. Malini's

3:31

letter is a story about life in

3:33

a big Indian joint family household,

3:36

and about how much the options available to

3:38

women have changed in her lifetime. You grew

3:40

up to be everything I couldn't be. Strong,

3:43

disciplined, and financially independent.

3:47

Civil war between a mother and daughter-in-law, favorite

3:49

grandchildren, and how to pick your

3:51

battles. This is episode 7,

3:54

a public apology from a besalted mother.

4:00

Malini and Raji are in Bangalore, in

4:02

southern India. So Bangalore has

4:04

been the garden city when I

4:06

was growing up. It was

4:08

lush and green, but sometime around the

4:10

70s and 80s, it

4:13

became like the IT hub of

4:15

the country. It's just

4:18

a very, very overcrowded, overpopulated

4:20

city now. So

4:22

I miss the old Bangalore. It

4:24

had a very slow and peaceful

4:26

kind of an environment back then,

4:29

which isn't the case name. What

4:32

about your mum, Malini? How

4:34

do you feel about the changes that

4:36

you're seeing in Bangalore? I still love

4:38

Bangalore, unconditionally. It might

4:41

be overcrowded, overpopulated, over water,

4:43

but I love Bangalore. Raji mainly

4:46

lives in the US these days, but

4:48

she's spending more time in Bangalore as her

4:50

parents are getting older. With Raji,

4:52

I know she's the one who encouraged you to

4:54

write this letter to us, isn't it? Yes,

4:57

Raji did. See, at that time,

5:00

I had fractured my leg. And

5:04

because of my health conditions, the doctor

5:06

said I couldn't walk for another three

5:08

months. And Raji had to

5:10

drop everything and come away. And

5:13

that made me feel so guilty, and

5:15

I was terrified that I might not be able

5:18

to walk again. And

5:20

then I think Raji follows your podcast,

5:22

and she likes it a lot. And

5:24

then she asked me, what do you

5:27

think you would write if you had

5:29

to? And that is why I wrote

5:31

that letter. Raji, thank you for

5:33

convincing your mum. Why did

5:35

you feel like it would be a good idea for her to

5:37

do this? She was in a

5:39

very depressed state at that time. And

5:42

honestly, the reason I asked her to

5:45

write was, one, I was

5:47

curious to see what she would write,

5:49

but mostly I wanted to give her something

5:51

to take her mind off the depression. But

5:53

then when I saw the letter, I saw that

5:56

it was full of regret and guilt. And I

5:58

think she spewed all the depression. was

6:00

inside of her in the letter. Yeah and

6:02

it was it was definitely for

6:04

you that she's gladly agreed to

6:06

share it with us and everyone that's

6:09

listening. So Malini would you kindly read

6:11

your letter to us now? My

6:15

dear daughter you're truly an undeserved

6:17

gift from God. I

6:20

celebrated my first wedding anniversary with

6:22

you. You were a cherished child.

6:25

I grew up in a dysfunctional joint family

6:27

where my paternal aunt

6:29

made all the decisions. I

6:32

was also the middle child and had

6:34

to be aggressive and fight for everything.

6:37

I decided then that I would

6:39

take charge of my life in

6:41

a nuclear family when I got

6:43

married. At 23 though I

6:45

got married to a joint family

6:48

where three generations co-existed. When

6:51

you were born your grandmother was

6:53

overjoyed. She had no daughters so

6:55

she doted on you and wanted

6:57

to be in charge. We

7:00

were both strong women and the civil

7:02

war was inevitable. I did

7:04

not realize then that you were caught

7:06

in the crossfire. I wondered

7:08

much later if this was the reason

7:11

you decided to leave home to pursue

7:13

your career. I

7:15

believe that every woman should be

7:17

financially independent since I was never

7:20

allowed to work but conversely

7:22

I also felt a woman should have

7:24

a choice to decide if she wanted

7:26

to be a housewife. You

7:29

grew up to be everything

7:32

I couldn't be. Strong, disciplined

7:34

and financially independent. I

7:36

made all the decisions for you until

7:38

you left home for the US but

7:41

when I let go maybe you still

7:43

needed a shoulder to cry on, a

7:45

hand to hold on to. You

7:48

dealt with all your problems alone. I

7:51

did not realize then that you may

7:53

have had your own insecurities. I

7:56

feel guilty that I wasn't there

7:58

when you needed me especially because

8:00

you have always been there and

8:02

I needed you. How is there any

8:04

justice in this? You

8:06

told me once that the soul chooses the

8:09

mother to whom it wants to be born.

8:11

So in your next birth my dear

8:14

child we want a wonderful mother who

8:16

will cherish you and deserve a daughter

8:18

like you. A public

8:20

apology from a deserted mother.

8:24

Thank you Malini. Could we start

8:27

by perhaps going back to the 70s 1970

8:30

when you got married at 23. How did you meet

8:32

your husband? It was

8:35

a completely arranged marriage. I

8:37

saw him maybe for half an hour and agreed

8:40

to marry him. Really? Yes, my

8:44

son's preposterous at this time and age

8:46

but of course our families knew each

8:48

other. I didn't even talk to him

8:50

mind you. So what

8:52

happens? You meet in a room. You

8:54

have a look at each other? Our

8:56

families, his parents and he had

8:58

come. You know we have snacks

9:00

served and coffee and all that

9:02

and there I met my husband

9:05

for a free thing half an hour.

9:07

That's it. Malini had been to

9:09

university before she got married. My

9:11

father said study all you want. Get

9:14

as many degrees as you want but you're not

9:16

going to work. It was

9:18

a patriarchal mindset and in

9:20

those days good families didn't

9:22

want daughters in law who

9:24

were working. So that

9:26

was a problem. I wanted to work.

9:29

I did my degree in journalism

9:32

and I wanted to be a copywriter but

9:35

I couldn't. That is why

9:37

it was very particular that Raji stood work.

9:40

And what was the household that Raji grew

9:42

up in? Like who was in the home

9:45

and how did it work? What were the dynamics like? It

9:48

was a lovely joint

9:50

family with so many

9:52

relatives going

9:54

and coming and it was

9:57

a nice sister home, a huge

9:59

home. huge compound, lovely area

10:01

for Raji to play in

10:04

and it was a lovely family also.

10:06

So many relatives, very nice household for

10:08

the child to grow up in and

10:11

she was the first grandchild in the

10:13

family and was only grandchild for nine

10:15

years. So very transferred

10:17

and loved and she

10:20

had a great childhood. I

10:22

can imagine she was spoiled rotten for

10:24

those nine years. For those of us

10:26

that might not be familiar with the term joint

10:28

family, could you just briefly explain what that means?

10:31

A joint family is

10:33

basically living with the in-laws

10:37

and sometimes they have huge joint

10:39

families with 40 members.

10:41

So a joint family is basically

10:44

a multi-generation family like we had

10:46

our grand, great grandmother, then my

10:48

grandparents. My father also had two

10:51

younger brothers, both of whom

10:54

were unmarried. So joint family

10:56

is basically where there are

10:59

first cousins, siblings, grandparents, great

11:01

grandparents, many layers of families

11:04

living together. Right, okay.

11:07

And Malini, you got married and you

11:09

moved into this wonderful home, but

11:11

you had ideas about how you would like

11:14

to run your own nuclear family and what

11:16

you would like for your own life. So

11:19

what happened once you got into that home?

11:21

What was the reality? I was very

11:24

disappointed that I

11:26

wanted to cook for my husband. See,

11:29

because it belongs to a wealthy family, they had

11:31

a cook and it wasn't

11:33

required for me to cook at all. I would

11:36

have loved to have cooked something for my

11:38

husband and see in a joint family what

11:40

happens is there's a lack of privacy and

11:43

my husband basically is a very shy

11:46

person and he used to

11:48

be embarrassed even to call me by my

11:50

name and whenever he wanted me

11:52

he would say, where are you? Until

11:55

I had to tell him that I had a name,

11:57

my name was not where are you. And

12:00

see that, I mean that lack of

12:02

privacy is there in a joint family.

12:05

But in a way it cushions a lot

12:07

of hurt and you have

12:09

a support system when you need it.

12:12

That way it was great. You

12:20

referred to a civil war in the home

12:22

between, you know, your strong

12:25

personality and your mother-in-law's strong

12:27

personality. Yes. Could you

12:29

tell me a bit about what you mean by that?

12:33

See, we both loved her, largely a

12:35

lot. And I think we were both

12:37

a little possessive about her. If

12:40

I had had a few more

12:42

children or one more child, maybe

12:44

it would have been different. But she

12:47

was the only grandchild and she was

12:49

my only child. And we were

12:51

both possessive and we wanted to make all

12:53

the decisions for her life. And

12:56

we were both very strong women, you know,

12:58

with strong egos. It

13:00

didn't make for the happy family life.

13:03

If you constantly keep bickering, it

13:06

affects her child badly. Especially

13:09

between two people whom she loved a

13:11

lot. And in that sense, I can

13:13

hear a lot of regret. You've just mentioned regret,

13:15

but I also hear it in your letter.

13:17

Yes, my middle name is regret. I

13:22

definitely can feel it as a parent. I also sometimes

13:24

go to bed and I regret so many things that

13:26

I've done in the course of the day. But

13:29

I feel like I could have done better as

13:31

a parent. Yes. And my children are young, my

13:33

children are seven and three. But

13:35

it just knows away at you a

13:38

lot as a parent. Could you talk

13:40

to me about regret as a parent and how

13:42

it has made you feel? My

13:44

regret as a parent would be that

13:47

I could have been maybe

13:49

not so strict with Raji. I

13:52

could have been more lenient

13:55

towards her because she was a good

13:57

child. She didn't need that much

13:59

of a desire. The point

14:01

thing was that she was

14:03

a only grandchild and she

14:05

was pampered a lot. And

14:08

I wanted to make sure she wasn't

14:10

spoiled. That was

14:12

why I was strict with her. And

14:15

how do you deal with the regret? I

14:19

cannot do anything about it right now,

14:21

right? And Raji, what

14:23

do you think? What's your perspective? Because

14:26

it's interesting how different people

14:28

view. I mean... The

14:30

same thing. Yes, she was very strict.

14:33

And I was a very well behaved, well

14:35

mannered child. I was reserved and I was

14:37

probably a bit shy as well. But

14:39

like she said, I think her fear

14:42

that I would turn into a spoiled

14:44

brat, I think she was excessively strict

14:46

with me. But in

14:49

the end, she's imagining it to have

14:51

turned out to be very bleak and

14:53

sad. But it's actually not so. So

14:56

I turned out quite

14:58

well despite all of it. All of

15:00

it in the sense even the civil

15:02

war and all the bickering and all

15:04

of it. If I think

15:06

of my childhood, I had a lovely childhood, you

15:08

know, spending time in

15:10

the yard and playing games. So

15:13

I really think she's unnecessarily

15:16

carrying this burden. What

15:19

was your relationship like with your grandma? When

15:21

I was growing up, until I was 10, I was

15:23

the only child in the house. And

15:26

obviously I was her favorite

15:28

grandchild because I was a girl

15:30

child. She was the

15:32

coolest gang mother one could have. So she was

15:35

very chill. She was very laid back.

15:38

You know, she used to love

15:40

listening to music. And she used to read

15:42

the newspaper. And she

15:44

used to play board games with me.

15:47

And she's the one that taught me how

15:49

to play Scrabble. And we were both very

15:51

good at it and very competitive. So we

15:54

used to love playing Scrabble with each other.

15:56

And she used to love designing clothes for

15:58

the kids. me.

16:00

So she was a really fun

16:03

and cool grandmother to have. Yeah, it sounds like you

16:05

had a very loving relationship with your grandma, you had

16:08

a loving relationship with your mum, but

16:10

the two clashed a lot. And it must have

16:13

felt you know how they say, when

16:15

elephants fight, it's the grass that suffers. Do

16:17

you remember? Do you remember any

16:19

times where you you got caught

16:21

in the middle? And how did you deal with that?

16:24

Or just hearing the bickering and the civil war as

16:26

your mum called it? Um,

16:29

so the thing is, this

16:31

is my opinion, I felt

16:33

like my mother used to fight

16:36

some silly battles in

16:38

the sense that you know, it was some

16:40

kind of a principle that she wanted

16:42

to make a point with, but she

16:44

would never fight the important battles like

16:47

in a in a multigensational household, everybody

16:50

is in everybody's business. So you

16:52

know, somebody had a critique about

16:54

me, she would never defend me,

16:56

that is not the battle she

16:58

would fight. She would fight silly

17:00

battles about making a point with

17:02

my grandmother or saying, Oh, you

17:04

know, that's not right. And this

17:06

not right. Many morning when I

17:08

woke up at seven, I would

17:10

hear two bickering voices. But it

17:12

was just a background music

17:14

for me. You know,

17:16

I just took it as part of

17:18

the part of the milieu, you

17:20

know. So now that

17:22

you're both adults, and you've heard

17:24

her letter, do you understand her

17:27

regrets? You know, I'm never able

17:29

to see how she looks at

17:31

things, because it was

17:33

always been through the tinted glass

17:35

of regret or guilt or something.

17:37

And that's just, you know, I'm

17:39

more like my father, I have

17:42

a clear head, then I don't generally

17:45

get influenced by, you

17:48

know, a lot of emotions like,

17:50

you know, regret and guilt. So I,

17:53

to a large extent have a hard

17:55

time understanding where she's coming from. But

17:58

I also understand that It

18:00

comes from her childhood

18:02

and the things that she has

18:05

had to deal with, having

18:07

to deal with a very domineering aunt

18:10

and having to constantly be

18:12

aggressive and fight battles in order to

18:15

get whatever she wanted. And I think

18:17

just become part of her nature now

18:19

to look at everything through the lens

18:21

of regret and guilt. Whereas

18:24

I'm not like that by nature. The

18:27

end justifies the means, you

18:30

know, in the end I've turned

18:32

out quite alright, actually more

18:34

than alright. So in that sense I

18:36

feel she should let go of the

18:38

baggage. So

18:41

now would be a perfect time actually Raji for you to

18:43

read your letter because you have written a letter to your

18:45

mum as well. Your mother. First

18:51

off, I want to tell you that I

18:53

don't hold any resentment towards you. While

18:56

you have made quite a few questionable

18:58

parenting decisions, there are so many things

19:00

that you have done and taught me

19:02

that these become insignificant. One

19:04

of the things that I have definitely picked up from

19:06

you is my reading habit. I

19:08

believe that it's not enough for mothers and parents

19:11

to just read to the kids. Kids

19:13

will only take up the reading habit if they

19:15

see at least one parent reading voraciously.

19:18

You always used to say that we needed

19:20

to be financially independent and that

19:22

is a life lesson that I have always carried with

19:25

me. The same goes for

19:27

always speaking your mind even if it

19:29

is contrary to popular belief. You

19:31

have been fighting feminist battles in your own

19:34

way even though it wasn't given such a

19:36

fancy label at the time. Being

19:39

house proud and cooking and feeding friends and

19:41

family are things that I have learned from

19:43

you. I would also like to think

19:45

that I get my sense of humor from you

19:48

albeit the good and healthy kind

19:50

not the sarcastic tongue in cheek

19:52

kind. You have always

19:54

been available whenever I have needed you

19:56

but sometimes your mother hand ways can

19:58

be quite annoying. I think you

20:01

should stop beating yourself up over these things. It

20:03

is all in the past. All

20:05

said and done, I have turned out

20:07

to be a strong, independent and level-headed

20:09

woman, just like you intended. Although

20:12

my interesting personality and congeniality is my

20:14

own, so I can't give you credit

20:16

for that. P.S. I still

20:18

think you should have taught us to drink lots

20:21

of water, to eat fruits and

20:23

vegetables, and should have told me to go

20:25

have fun sometimes, because I am now realising

20:27

that I simply don't know how to have

20:29

fun. Happy birthday dear

20:31

mother and I love you. You're very

20:34

smart and wise daughter Raji. Raji,

20:41

that was great, thank you. But

20:43

Malini, what does it feel like to

20:46

hear that letter? Oh, I felt so

20:48

happy. Though of course she does

20:51

have a tongue in cheek for me, right? No,

20:54

she says she doesn't. A

20:56

lot of left-handed compliments. Maybe

20:58

she's just confident in

21:03

the way you brought her up and the way that

21:05

she's handled herself and her life. So

21:07

how does it make you feel to hear that as

21:09

much as you regret some things,

21:12

that your daughter is so confident

21:14

of herself and loves herself

21:16

and knows who she is? I feel very proud

21:19

that she's turned out the way she has. And

21:22

does it make you feel any different

21:24

about some of the regrets that you

21:26

have carried throughout your life? Yes, it

21:28

makes me feel much better. But

21:31

I suppose she is this

21:33

despite my mistakes. So

21:38

there's a guard about. Raji, you've

21:40

talked about all the things that your

21:42

mum taught you to value, and

21:44

you've talked about valuing the fact that she was a feminist

21:47

and she stood for what she believed in and

21:49

she spoke out when she felt that she needed

21:51

to. We talked about her

21:53

encouraging you to find financial

21:56

stability and independence. Why

21:59

were these things? so important to her,

22:01

do you think? The financial independence part

22:03

was very important for her because in

22:06

her generation, once the parents get you

22:08

married, you don't get any property because

22:10

they have spent so much on your

22:12

education and the marriage that if you're

22:15

a woman, you don't get a share

22:17

in the property. And

22:19

she didn't have an income and she

22:22

constantly had to expect my

22:24

father to give her money

22:26

for everything. And

22:28

she believed that it was very important

22:30

for women to have financial stability and

22:32

independence so that they'll be able to

22:35

take decisions in their life. And that

22:37

has helped me as well because when

22:39

I wanted to get a divorce, it

22:41

was a very easy decision

22:44

for me because I was doing well in

22:46

my career, I had good income

22:48

and I was able to support

22:50

myself. And that was

22:52

something that she always believed in and

22:54

she always told both me and my

22:56

sister to get an education and then

22:58

make a good career out of it

23:01

because that was very essential as a

23:03

woman. And I really just love

23:05

what you said to her about the soul, choosing

23:08

the mother. I think it's beautiful, something I'm

23:11

definitely going to steal and share. I

23:14

think it's very beautiful. But

23:16

what advice, Malini, would you have

23:18

for daughters out there and

23:20

for mothers who are raising daughters, for fathers who are

23:22

raising daughters? What advice do you have?

23:25

Really, I'm not sure

23:27

whether I'm qualified to advise anybody.

23:30

Having been a bad mother, on

23:32

those days when I was young, I

23:34

had more confidence and I didn't feel the

23:36

kind of diffidence I feel. How

23:39

do you bring up children and you make

23:41

all the decisions for another human

23:44

being? It's very scary

23:46

actually, it's a scenario. And

23:48

I think I'm not qualified to advise anyone

23:50

at all. But if

23:52

you love the child, I'm sure you will do

23:54

the best you can. That is all you can

23:56

do. And hope for the

23:58

best and brave you. What

24:01

about you Rajiv? Do you have any advice

24:03

for daughters and their relationship

24:05

to their moms?

24:07

Well, she kind of said she wasn't

24:09

qualified. I think leading that

24:11

example is something that she did

24:13

very well. Whether it was speaking

24:16

her mind, whether it was the

24:18

reading habit, like I said, you know, she

24:20

has always led by example. And I always

24:22

think that, you know, children only pick

24:25

up not what you ask

24:27

them to learn, but you show them,

24:29

you know, that when you do it, then

24:31

children will pick it up. I always believe

24:33

in that. So some of the things like

24:36

financial independence, years later, when

24:38

she was given a chance, she

24:40

went to work, became a teacher,

24:42

and she had a very good

24:44

career. She made a very good

24:47

career out of it. So, you

24:49

know, I think it's a great

24:51

example for girls to follow. And

24:53

that is very important. Having a

24:56

strong mother is a very good thing

24:58

for girls. And that is

25:00

what I would say to daughters. I think

25:02

that's all very sound advice. I wouldn't say

25:04

you're not qualified. It sounds like you've raised

25:06

a wonderful daughter, Malini. And

25:10

Rajiv, thank you for sharing her letter with us

25:12

or convincing her to write the letter. No problem.

25:15

I do love this program. So it was not

25:17

hard. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you

25:19

so much. But have you talked about this actually,

25:21

the two of you, is this a conversation that

25:24

you've had over the years? No,

25:26

actually, you know, in our culture,

25:28

and I'm sure it is in

25:30

many cultures, it is not very

25:33

common for parents and children to

25:35

have open conversations about what's on

25:37

their mind and what one is

25:39

feeling or thinking. So you know,

25:41

this letter actually helped me get a sense

25:43

of where her head was at. And

25:46

to kind of let her know that, you

25:48

know, things didn't turn out really as bleak

25:50

as she has imagined. So no,

25:52

we've never had this kind of a

25:54

conversation, you know, and it doesn't happen

25:57

just not in our culture and maybe

25:59

not in many. conscious evening. I

26:07

completely understand worrying about the

26:09

choices that you make for your children and wondering

26:12

how they'll impact them. And like

26:14

Malini, regret can also

26:16

be my middle name, but I've

26:19

been trying to be more like Raji and live

26:22

with less regret and be more confident

26:24

about the decisions that I make. You

26:29

know, Raji has so much pride in her mom's

26:31

achievements, even though Malini sometimes

26:34

struggles to see beyond the past. And

26:36

that civil war in their household, it

26:39

didn't even bother Raji or prevent

26:42

her from having a great relationship with

26:44

her grandma. So I always think it's interesting

26:47

how people can view the same

26:49

situation so differently, even

26:51

a lifetime later. And I

26:53

think we just need to keep talking

26:55

about these things while

26:57

we still can. Next

27:06

week on Dear Daughter, it's

27:08

hard enough blending two lives

27:10

together, you know, a couple entering a relationship

27:12

or a marriage, then bring six

27:15

kids into that and blending

27:17

your whole families. What was that like?

27:20

I wish that I could say that

27:22

everyone accepted each other and we all

27:24

went through life smoothly. I'm afraid that's

27:26

not how life works. Dear

27:30

Daughter is presented by me, Namulanta Kombu,

27:33

and produced by me and Lucy Burns with support

27:35

from Nkasha Fernandez and Maggie Karanja.

27:38

The editor is Bridget Hani, mixed

27:41

by Neil Churchill, theme

27:43

music composed by Justin Nichols. Kat

27:46

Collins is a BBC World Service

27:48

podcast producer, and John Manel

27:50

is a podcast commissioning editor. See

27:57

you next time. Hold

28:07

up. What was that? Boring.

28:10

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28:14

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Discover all the delicious possibilities at

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28:42

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