0:00

Hey parents, Greenlight is here to take

0:02

one big thing off your to-do list,

0:04

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0:08

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0:10

earn, save, and invest. You can send

0:12

money instantly, set flexible controls, and get

0:15

real-time notifications of your kid's money activity.

0:17

Set up chores and put allowance on

0:19

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0:21

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0:23

money together. Get one month free when

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you sign up at greenlight.com/podcast. Hi

0:33

everyone, it's four o'clock in the east, the

0:35

nation's highest court in the land today

0:37

making news for the work

0:39

it did not do. The slew of decisions

0:42

still pending on some of the biggest questions

0:44

and issues facing our country. Things

0:46

like abortion and guns to legal

0:48

accountability for the January 6th insurrection.

0:50

And of course, the question looming

0:53

over a presidential election, a question

0:55

with the power to make or

0:57

break our very democracy. Is

0:59

Donald Trump immune from prosecution for

1:02

crimes he committed while serving

1:04

as our president? In other

1:06

words, our American presidents, now,

1:08

kings. The federal election

1:10

case brought by special counsel Jack Smith has

1:12

been on hold for more than six months

1:14

now. That in itself

1:17

a victory for Trump as he

1:19

uses every lever of the justice

1:21

system available to any criminal defendant

1:23

to his advantage with a single

1:25

goal. To avoid standing trial before

1:27

the election in November. At which

1:29

point if he prevails and is

1:31

elected, he can dismiss the

1:34

felony counts he faces for attempting a

1:36

coup. As we have pointed

1:38

out on this program before, every day that

1:40

goes by with a decision one way or

1:42

the other from the Supreme Court is a

1:44

victory for Trump. It's a day that Trump

1:47

gets closer to his goal. It's

1:49

a glaring delay for many other reasons

1:51

as well. There's the fact that

1:54

not one but two of the nine

1:56

justices are facing calls for recusal. One

1:59

who's home. flew a flag that was

2:01

also flown by the January 6th insurrectionist

2:04

at the Capitol on his property. The

2:07

other has a wife who

2:09

was actively involved in urging

2:11

state legislatures to overturn Joe

2:13

Biden's victory and change the

2:15

election result. There's

2:17

a fact at hand in the

2:19

case itself, illegal questions. As an

2:21

op-ed in the New York Times

2:23

points out, quote, Trump's lawyers put

2:25

together a set of arguments that

2:27

are so outlandish they shouldn't take

2:29

much time to dispatch. Among them

2:32

is the upside down claim that

2:34

because the Constitution specifies that an

2:36

officer who is convicted in an

2:38

impeachment proceeding may subsequently face a

2:40

criminal trial, the Constitution

2:42

actually requires an impeachment conviction

2:44

before there is any criminal

2:46

punishment. That gets things backward.

2:49

The Constitution confirms that impeachment is

2:51

not a prerequisite to

2:54

criminal prosecution. And yet

2:56

Trump's lawyers continue to take the

2:58

untenable position in response

3:00

to questioning that a president who

3:02

orders the assassination of a political

3:04

rival could not face criminal charges

3:06

absent impeachment by the House and

3:09

conviction in the Senate. It

3:11

does not take weeks to explain why these arguments

3:13

are wrong. We

3:15

also know that the court

3:18

is entirely capable of

3:20

moving quickly if and when they want to.

3:22

In the other big case involving the ex-president

3:24

and the election this year, on

3:27

the question of whether Trump could be

3:29

on the ballot at all because of

3:31

clause in the 14th amendment that bans

3:33

insurrectionists from holding office, the

3:35

Supreme Court was super speedy. It

3:38

delivered a decision just two months after Trump's appeal

3:40

to the Supreme Court. The

3:42

New York Times reports this as well,

3:44

quote, in addition to the disqualification case,

3:46

two and a half years ago, the

3:49

court scheduled a challenge to the Biden

3:51

administration's test or vaccinate policy two weeks

3:53

after the justices decide to hear it

3:55

and then issued a decision invalidating the

3:57

policy less than a week later. to

14:00

understand a couple options that

14:02

the Supreme Court could have taken in

14:04

addition to sort of the obvious ones,

14:06

which was either to not hear the

14:09

case or to hear the case six

14:11

months ago and decide it quickly, which

14:15

Mark and Dahlia have spoken about. But

14:18

here's another thing that is, which

14:20

I have seen courts do in my

14:22

own experience, which is that one of

14:25

the reasons that there is a problem

14:27

is because there is a stay right

14:29

now of a criminal case. Normally, when

14:31

courts have that, they put

14:34

the criminal case sort of ahead of

14:36

everything else because they know that the

14:39

public's right to a speedy trial, the

14:41

defendant being under a criminal indictment, all

14:43

of that is a reason to act

14:46

with a lacquity. And

14:48

so they could have heard this

14:50

case much, much quicker. But they

14:52

also could have decided that the

14:54

stay should be lifted at least

14:56

for the pretrial proceedings. In other

14:58

words, that is one of the

15:00

big problems here is that Judge

15:02

Chutkin, the trial judge, cannot

15:04

do anything on the case, can't do

15:06

any of the pretrial work that

15:09

was scheduled here because that stay

15:11

is in place. But there was

15:13

no reason that they didn't address

15:15

that at the oral argument and

15:18

focus on whether it was appropriate

15:20

given there's just no way that

15:22

there are five justices who say

15:26

that a president is immune from this

15:29

particular criminal case. If they're going to

15:31

say that, I mean, you know what?

15:34

We are so

15:36

gone as a country if they go

15:39

down that road that I really can't

15:41

contemplate it because there really is no

15:44

check then on executive power.

15:47

And so they really could have lifted

15:49

that stay. And the other is to

15:51

the extent that they're saying, you know

15:53

what? We're going to do things in

15:55

the normal course. And we're going to

15:57

decide the oldest cases first and the

15:59

most. most recent cases last. And

16:02

this case just came up late in

16:05

the day. That is not how

16:07

courts operate when both sides have

16:09

an interest in speed and the

16:11

court should have an interest in

16:13

speed because of this

16:15

pending criminal case. And both sides

16:18

actually have the only legitimate interest

16:20

was for speed here. The

16:22

Trump, because he's saying I shouldn't be

16:25

charged at all because I'm immune. So

16:27

he'd want that decided quickly. And

16:29

Jack Smith, because he's saying there's a public

16:31

right to have a trial quickly. And

16:34

so you really end up, as

16:36

Marcus said, with the Supreme Court

16:39

disgracing itself in terms of adherence

16:41

to the rule of law. It

16:44

is might makes right in

16:47

the very last place in

16:49

our democracy where that should be the rule.

16:53

Let me show you. I mean, I

16:55

think we're sort of left to rely

16:57

on Dahlia to rely

16:59

on the utterances of some of

17:02

the liberal

17:04

justices, things that they say

17:07

at other events. Let me

17:09

just play Justice Katanji Brown

17:11

Jackson's question during oral

17:13

arguments. What

17:16

I'm, I guess, more worried about, you

17:18

seem to be worried about the president being chilled.

17:21

I think that we would have

17:23

a really significant opposite problem if

17:25

the president wasn't chilled. If someone

17:28

with those kinds of powers, the

17:30

most powerful person in the world,

17:33

with the greatest amount of authority,

17:36

could go into office knowing

17:38

that there would be no

17:40

potential penalty for committing

17:42

crimes, I'm trying to understand

17:45

what the disincentive is from

17:47

turning the Oval Office into the

17:49

seat of

17:52

criminal activity in this country. Andrew

17:55

Weissman, if Trump were capable writing a mission statement

17:57

for his 2024 campaign, be

18:00

it, right? I mean, this is what he's

18:02

telling his supporters he wants. I am your

18:04

retribution. Retribution for what? To

18:06

be pardoned, to pardon myself, to be

18:08

there, to exonerate myself from

18:11

the consequences of the crimes I committed.

18:13

I mean, that is what it's all

18:15

about. And I feel like when a

18:18

justice says something is

18:20

the opposite, we should

18:22

hear them because I feel like

18:24

that is as clear as

18:26

anything that was uttered during oral arguments,

18:28

Andrew. Absolutely,

18:32

1000%. And

18:34

it tells you how

18:36

far we have

18:39

come when you look back

18:41

to the decisions during, for

18:44

instance, the Nixon era, where

18:46

there was unanimity with

18:49

respect to the role of the

18:51

court that the court is

18:53

a separate institution and is vital

18:56

to checks and balances. And what you're

18:58

seeing on the part of the court

19:01

and on the part of the

19:04

legislative branch in Congress is

19:06

capitulation. I

19:09

mean, this is the

19:11

razor's edge of autocracy.

19:14

And it is

19:17

almost unbelievable that Katanji Brown

19:19

Jackson had to say that

19:22

and that it wasn't a given, given

19:26

the court's precedent, as Mark pointed

19:28

out, and that we

19:30

are at this place. And just

19:33

to be clear where we are,

19:35

it does not almost matter if

19:37

the court writes a big flowery

19:39

decision about how presidents are not

19:41

above the law. That is

19:44

irrelevant because what they have

19:46

held de facto is this

19:48

president is. And everything

19:51

that happened on January 6 is

19:53

being whitewashed by the fact that

19:55

they have sat on this case. All

19:59

right, much more. When we come back,

20:01

more signs of corruption at the nation's

20:03

highest court. Senator Sheldon Whitehouse will join

20:06

us on everything we've been talking about,

20:08

as well as the gifts from tuition,

20:10

private planes, yacht trips, vacations,

20:12

happily accepted, never disclosed by Justice

20:15

Clarence Thomas. The Senator and Scotis

20:17

watchdog will join us next on

20:19

what to make of everything we

20:22

face. Plus, it was one week

20:24

to go before the first presidential

20:26

debate of the 2024 general

20:29

election campaign season. Lordy,

20:32

there are tapes. There's a brand

20:34

new audio recording of Donald Trump,

20:37

admitting that he lost the

20:40

election in 2020. The mass slipped, and we'll

20:42

show it to you. Later in the

20:44

broadcast, what we are learning today about

20:47

the judge at the center of the Mar-a-Lago

20:49

documents case, and how even

20:51

her own colleagues on the bench urged

20:53

her to walk away, to step

20:56

aside from this case. We'll bring you all

20:58

those stories and more, when Deather & Whitehouse

21:00

continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere

21:02

today. Hey,

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21:22

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21:25

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21:27

hard work. Then learn about

21:29

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for the love of home. Joining

22:10

our coverage Senator Sheldon Whitehouse Democratic

22:12

Senator from Rhode Island member of

22:14

the Senate Judiciary Committee. I want

22:17

to put up this fantastic new way

22:19

to draw the public's attention to the

22:22

epic scale of the corruption on

22:25

the gifts front. This

22:27

is Clarence Thomas's list

22:29

of gifts and growing. Let me put that up.

22:45

We don't have enough time to ask you all the questions

22:47

we want to ask you and play the whole thing

23:03

but it is a powerful new

23:05

way to illustrate the depths of

23:07

what we've been talking about. The

23:09

incredible disparity between public service and

23:12

transparency and the growing numbers of

23:14

Americans who do not trust this

23:17

Supreme Court. Yeah

23:21

there are 25 different

23:24

significant gifts that have been not

23:27

disclosed and probably

23:30

more that we could find out about.

23:32

That's just what we know about that

23:35

has come up publicly but not disclosed.

23:38

Luckily the judicial conference is looking at whether

23:40

or not to make

23:42

the filing requirements retroactive

23:45

when they recently cleaned up after

23:47

the Scalia trick. So if

23:50

they say what they said to me that it's

23:52

a clarification then that means it was always the

23:54

rule and they'll have to go back and we'll

23:56

get even more information. So this is just what

23:58

we know but it could be even worse. I

24:02

mean, Senator, what do you make of this

24:04

moment? You know, we find ourselves on

24:06

the precipice of learning whether or

24:09

not these justices believe that a

24:11

president is functionally a king in

24:13

America. It would change

24:16

not just what Americans think of the

24:18

presidency, but what the world thinks of

24:20

America. And you

24:22

know, no decision today. It's

24:25

not clear that everything will be done in

24:27

a week. What do you think is going on?

24:30

Well, first of all, Bravo on the

24:33

Lithwick Elias Weisman panel. That's a

24:35

pretty smoking group. I

24:37

think what's going on is that they know

24:39

that they can't make a decision

24:41

that is the least bit credible, that

24:43

actually grants Trump immunity.

24:47

So the court or a segment

24:49

of it that can slow down

24:52

the process is, as

24:54

Weisman said, giving him de facto

24:56

immunity by slowing down the process. This

24:58

is a court that knows how to meet a deadline.

25:01

They decided the Colorado case

25:03

about Trump, the

25:05

14th Amendment case in 25 days

25:07

because he

25:09

needed to be put on the ballot in Colorado.

25:12

They decided Bush v. Gore in

25:14

one day after oral argument. So

25:17

all this foot dragging that we're

25:19

seeing now has every appearance of

25:21

being strategic and deliberate by

25:23

at least some justices trying

25:26

to give Trump every window

25:28

he can to avoid accountability

25:30

for his criminal actions. He's

25:33

quite a unique criminal in the way he's treated by

25:35

this court. It

25:38

feels like an extraordinary moment, even for

25:40

this court. And

25:43

you add to it the personal ties

25:45

to the insurrection in the homes of

25:47

Justice Alito and Justice Thomas. Do

25:50

you view this as an extraordinary moment

25:53

for the court? And does that require

25:55

an extraordinary response from the Senate Judiciary

25:57

Committee? It

26:00

requires an extraordinary response from Congress writ large.

26:02

I hope we'll get a vote on my

26:04

Supreme Court ethics bill. But as you pointed

26:07

out, there's more to this than just their

26:09

ethics problems. All of these decisions

26:12

interconnect these troublesome decisions. There's

26:15

a through line. The billionaires who funded the

26:17

effort that put these justices on the court

26:19

want the relief from pollution

26:21

regulations that they've been getting from the

26:23

court. They want Trump elected

26:25

so that he'll lower their taxes. And

26:28

here's the court delivering Trump to

26:31

them. And

26:33

you could kind of go piece by

26:35

piece through all of the troublesome decisions.

26:38

And the constant through line is not

26:40

originalism. And it's not conservatism. And

26:43

it's not anything doctrinal. It's

26:45

the far right billionaires who put them on the court win.

26:48

They may win just a little instead of

26:51

a lot. But it's enough that the direction

26:53

is clear. The pattern is obvious. And the

26:55

pattern is incredibly damaging to the institution of

26:57

the court. What's

27:00

amazing is that you don't have a partner on

27:03

the court. I mean, the

27:06

beneficiary of more transparency of an

27:08

ethics code that matches that of

27:10

other federal judges, the

27:13

beneficiary is the Supreme

27:15

Court. I mean, are there

27:17

any back channels to anyone there to

27:19

try to get them to row in

27:21

the same direction? The

27:24

closest that I've been

27:27

able to find is to engage

27:29

with the judicial conference, which is

27:31

the body of very senior chief

27:33

judges that oversees the judicial

27:36

branch and also oversees ethics

27:38

disclosure and so forth, discipline.

27:41

So they know where they speak. And

27:43

when they see that justice is doing stuff

27:45

that is clearly unacceptable in their own courts,

27:47

they've been helpful. They blew up

27:50

the scalia trick of recruiting resort

27:52

owners to give them free vacations and

27:55

pretending that the personal invitation made it

27:57

personal hospitality. They just required a lot

27:59

of money. more transparency from

28:02

the amicus curi briefs through which

28:04

the billionaires communicate through the justices.

28:06

So there's some

28:10

real, I think, distress and concern

28:12

among other judges, but the court

28:14

itself haven't seen a peep, not

28:16

out of even the

28:18

ones appointed by Democratic

28:20

presidents. I mean,

28:22

Mark Elias, I want to bring you back and now that the

28:24

senator has hailed you

28:27

all as fabulous as we think you

28:29

are. I feel like I

28:31

can bring us all into the same conversation. Mark

28:34

Elias, the business friendly agenda is

28:36

one piece of it. The other

28:38

is the voter unfriendly piece of

28:41

it. We played part of the

28:43

interview with former Attorney General Eric

28:45

Holder yesterday, but the hostility, the

28:47

anti-democratic pattern is also one that

28:50

can be pretty well established

28:52

at this point. Yeah.

28:54

So first of all, I want

28:56

to point out that when

28:59

we talk about gifts and we talk about

29:01

disclosure, we have shifted the overhead window a

29:03

long way. I mean, the question is not

29:05

just why haven't these gifts been disclosed, but

29:08

why are they accepting them? I mean, when

29:11

Andrew Weissman was a federal prosecutor, I couldn't

29:13

buy him dinner. Literally, I couldn't

29:15

buy him dinner without him violating the gift rules.

29:18

So we need to be asking the question, why are they

29:20

accepting the gifts? Not just why aren't they disclosing them? But

29:22

to answer your question about

29:25

the voting rights, look, we

29:27

haven't seen a pro-voting decision out of

29:29

the Supreme Court in a really long

29:31

time. We've seen cases where

29:33

we've won, but that's

29:35

largely to maintain the status quo.

29:37

So my team won the big

29:39

Alabama case last term in the

29:41

US Supreme Court, but that was

29:44

just preserving a Voting Rights Act

29:46

victory that had been won at

29:48

the trial court. We also won

29:51

last term the Independence Day Legislature

29:53

theory case, but that was a

29:55

fringe right-wing theory that people were

29:57

afraid they're going to win. So

29:59

when they didn't adopt it, it

30:01

was a victory, but it wasn't

30:03

actually advancing voting rights. It was

30:05

just stopping the bad things from

30:07

happening. So we need a court

30:09

system that is avowedly pro-democracy. We

30:12

need a judicial system

30:14

that puts free and fair elections above

30:18

other business rights. We need,

30:20

frankly, bar associations

30:23

and lawyers and

30:25

law schools and law firms to

30:27

say that attacking democracy, that attacking

30:30

the bedrock underpinnings of

30:32

free and fair elections is

30:35

not acceptable behavior. And

30:37

so there really is a lot of work

30:39

here for the court to do, for the

30:41

bar to do, for lawyers to do, for

30:43

other judges to do, because we are fighting

30:45

every day against a growing

30:47

threat that we are nearing the

30:50

end of an American democratic experiment

30:53

and that totalitarianism and authoritarianism will replace

30:55

free and fair elections with the kind

30:57

of crony capitalism and fake democracy that

31:00

we have seen sweep many other countries

31:02

in history. I

31:05

mean, Senator Whitehouse, I'll give you

31:07

the last word with a question.

31:09

I mean, with the stakes as

31:11

high as you've all articulated here

31:13

today, would you consider having hearings

31:15

around the country and listening to,

31:17

I mean, is there a role

31:19

for the public to play five months ahead of an

31:21

election to understand the stakes

31:25

of the election? The person

31:27

who wins will decide who goes on the

31:29

court next. Yeah,

31:31

I think it is incumbent on all

31:34

of us in the Senate, in

31:36

the House, and the president himself and

31:38

his campaign to explain

31:41

clearly to the American people what's at stake

31:43

here, that billionaires

31:46

who could never get their policies

31:48

adopted, even by Republican controlled chambers

31:50

of Congress, instead went

31:52

to the court because it

31:55

is not democratically sensitive and

31:57

installed people there who would do their bidding.

46:00

play you new evidence, new audio for

46:02

the very first time showing you that

46:04

he knows exactly what he's doing when

46:06

he spreads those lies to his supporters.

46:08

The next hour of Deadland White House

46:10

starts after a quick break. Don't go

46:12

anywhere. We need to

46:14

figure it out. I

46:18

don't want people to know we

46:21

lost Mark. This

46:26

is embarrassing. Figure it out. We need to

46:28

figure it out. I don't want people to know that we lost. Hi

46:32

again, everyone. It's

46:34

5 o'clock in the East. Trump

46:37

knew all along, right, that

46:39

he lost. Even though he

46:41

has raged now for four years, that

46:43

the 2020 presidential election was somehow stolen

46:45

from him, in private,

46:47

even Donald Trump has admitted the

46:50

truth. Even Donald Trump knows the

46:52

truth. It's the truth he's

46:54

so embarrassed about that President Joe Biden, he

46:56

refers to him as this guy, beat

46:59

him, beat him in the

47:01

2020 presidential election. Today, in

47:03

a brand new tape, never heard

47:05

before, we're hearing that private admission

47:07

in the ex-president's own words, on

47:10

tape, a remarkable slip of

47:12

the mask, right? Trump's facade

47:15

made during one of his

47:17

half dozen interviews with writer,

47:19

Rameen Satude, author

47:21

of a brand new book chronicling Trump's time

47:24

as host of The Apprentice. We

47:26

spoke with Rameen on this program yesterday. He

47:28

told us about this moment. Here

47:31

is that never before heard

47:33

exchange that came up when

47:35

Trump was talking about former

47:37

Fox News commentator, Geraldo Rivera.

47:39

Listen. What was Geraldo like?

47:41

He was good. He did a good job. He

47:44

was smart, cunning. He

47:47

did a good job. And are you

47:49

guys still close or are you no longer? No, I don't think so. He

47:53

is after

47:56

I lost the election, I won the election, but when

47:58

they said we're on the He

48:01

called me up three or four times. I

48:03

didn't take his call because I was so busy fighting

48:06

it, you know, with what went

48:08

on. And we've caught him. I don't know if you

48:10

see it, but you will. But

48:14

he called me up three or four times. And

48:17

finally I had a little time. I called him back. And

48:19

he went on Fox, and he started talking about the

48:23

President called me. I didn't call him. I returned

48:25

his phone call. And he started

48:27

talking very personally about how I was feeling,

48:29

how I was doing. And

48:32

I said, that's really a betrayal. I didn't

48:34

talk about how I was feeling. It

48:37

was a phone call that lasted very quickly. Just,

48:39

hey, how you doing, Geraldo? How's it going? It's

48:42

not my deal. He's not my

48:44

psychiatrist. But he made it sound like

48:46

it was such a big deal. It was nothing. All

48:49

I did was return his call. But he said, the

48:51

President called me like I'm reaching out to him.

48:54

And I haven't spoken to him since. So

48:59

despite Trump's efforts to put his mask back

49:01

on, quickly covered up, you heard

49:03

the truth pour out of him. Call

49:05

me after I lost. Geraldo, I mean

49:08

I won. But he lost. He

49:10

lost. He knows it. And speaking

49:13

conversationally, he admitted it on

49:15

tape. But meanwhile,

49:17

publicly, and even there in

49:19

that call, the disgraced ex-President

49:21

continues to perpetuate and spread

49:23

the lie, the lie

49:26

that has undermined trust and faith

49:28

in our elections, in

49:30

American democracy, the lie that his own

49:32

supporters have bought into hook, line, and

49:34

sinker, some of them, the cost of

49:36

their freedom, their liberty, the

49:38

lie that fueled the supporters into committing

49:41

a deadly coup against the United States

49:43

government at the US Capitol on January

49:45

6th, the lie for

49:47

which dozens of Trump's allies have

49:49

been indicted across several states now.

49:52

More than half of all Republican voters believe

49:54

the lie, the lie that Trump couldn't even

49:56

keep up in a taped interview. But

49:58

now we know. The cult

50:00

leader doesn't even believe the lie.

50:04

The mass slipping is where we start

50:06

the hour with co-editor in chief, a

50:08

variety author of the new book. We

50:11

showcased it here yesterday. He's back, Apprentice

50:13

in Wonderland, how Donald Trump and Mark

50:15

Burnett took America through the Looking Glass.

50:18

Ramin Satude is back with us. Ramin,

50:22

I loved everything about our conversation

50:24

yesterday, but as a show,

50:26

we have sought to really understand

50:28

how the lie about Trump's defeat

50:31

in 2020 has undermined voting rights.

50:33

Almost 400 voter suppression bills have been passed

50:35

in 48 states in this country, predicated

50:38

on a lie. The

50:40

January 6th insurrection happens. Mike Pence doesn't

50:42

endorse Donald Trump. First time that's ever

50:44

happened in our country's history. And

50:47

it's such a precious piece of reporting

50:50

amid many other precious pieces

50:52

of reporting And even

50:54

Trump let the mask slip with you and

50:56

said, Geraldo called me after I lost. Just

50:59

tell me what that moment was like for you

51:01

sitting across from it. We were

51:03

sitting at the same table. This was in August 2021. He

51:07

was very comfortable that day because we were

51:09

actually watching clips of The Apprentice. And I

51:11

think part of the reason why the mask

51:13

slipped off was that he was remembering his

51:15

life as an entertainer. He was very amused.

51:17

He was excited to see himself in the

51:19

boardroom. And this is

51:22

all performance art for Donald Trump. My book

51:24

really tries to get into the psyche of

51:26

who Donald Trump is, what his motivations are,

51:28

what he's doing as a politician, quote, politician,

51:30

because I make the argument in the book

51:32

that he's not really a politician. And

51:34

the contestants I talked to said that Donald Trump is

51:36

an actor. He played a role on this reality show.

51:40

And as a candidate pursuing the White House,

51:42

he also played a role as president of

51:44

the United States. He also played a role

51:46

in this lie that he perpetuates is also

51:48

part of that role. He's acting the part

51:50

of this aggrieved politician who

51:52

claims that the election was stolen from

51:55

him because he knows that's something his

51:57

base loves. He loves to distort reality.

52:00

like the character in Alice in Wonderland, are

52:02

going down the looking glass in this story

52:05

where he's creating false narratives, distorting

52:07

the truth, and confusing the American

52:09

public. Rumin,

52:12

did you follow the January

52:14

6th public hearings closely at all?

52:17

I did. I mean, I

52:19

asked that because this is part of a

52:21

pattern, and what's so unique about it is

52:23

everything else was a witness, right? So Cassidy

52:26

Hutchinson testified to it. Alyssa Farah testified to

52:28

walking into the Oval Office to check on

52:30

Trump, and that's when he's watching television and

52:32

mutters, I can't believe I lost to this

52:35

guy. But you have it on

52:37

tape. And I

52:39

wonder, I'm gonna read to

52:42

our audience Trump's response to

52:45

this part of the book and this revelation that

52:47

we were gonna play the tape. This is his

52:49

campaign spokesperson. After recognizing the

52:51

importance of the apprentice, its significant

52:53

cultural impact on a global scale,

52:55

and Trump's remarkable role in forever

52:57

changing the landscape of entertainment, this

52:59

writer has now chosen to allow

53:01

Trump derangement syndrome to rot his

53:04

brain like so many other losers

53:06

whose entire existence revolves around Trump.

53:08

That's a campaign person. What's

53:10

notable is what's not in there, right? The

53:12

dog that doesn't bark. No denial that

53:14

Trump knows he lost. It's

53:17

notable, and it's also part of the

53:19

performance art, right, that's an outrageous, over-the-top,

53:21

crazy statement that you would expect from

53:23

a reality star who engages in feuds,

53:26

calls people names, makes up names, creates

53:28

false narratives. What was also

53:30

interesting about this moment was that the

53:32

story of why he and Geraldo had a

53:34

falling out traces back to the fact that

53:36

after they spoke, Geraldo went on,

53:39

it was called Twitter at the time, and

53:41

said the president will accept the results of

53:43

the election. And Donald Trump, according

53:45

to Geraldo, said a version of that to him

53:47

on the phone shortly after the

53:49

election, and then changed his mind and

53:51

decided that this election, he

53:53

was gonna claim the election was stolen from him, and

53:55

he was gonna perpetuate that lie that we were talking

53:58

about. And so that's the reason why. He

54:00

stopped talking to Geraldo, but it all goes back to

54:02

the fact that he's playing a part. He's

54:05

pretending he's created this false narrative and

54:07

millions of people believe him. I

54:10

mean, I think you have a frame that's really

54:12

instructive for anyone who's trying to cover Trump in

54:14

this moment, right? Because the other mask that you

54:17

take off is the idea that he ever saw

54:19

himself as the leader of anything. He didn't see

54:21

himself as a president. And I want

54:23

to play another piece of tape that you've given to

54:25

us exclusively. And this is him talking about Dennis

54:28

Rodman's acumen to deal with

54:30

North Korean leader Kim Jong

54:32

Un. Let me

54:35

play this. Dennis was a pretty

54:38

cool cat in many ways, I'll tell you. Hey,

54:41

look, he dated Madonna when she was the

54:43

number one person. You

54:48

got to have something going, right? He also showed up,

54:50

I think, to one of the excellents you had with

54:52

Kim Jong Un because he knew Kim very well. So

54:55

Kim Jong Un really liked him. Legit.

54:59

And I said, you know, I can get these guys out of

55:01

Harvard government and

55:06

central casting. They

55:08

couldn't do anything with Kim Jong Un. A guy like

55:10

Dennis could. I didn't use Dennis for it, but

55:13

I thought about it a couple of times before I got

55:15

to know Kim Jong Un. But

55:18

Dennis would have done a better job

55:20

than your traditional people, your

55:22

traditional Ivy League people that

55:25

always do that stuff and they have no personality.

55:28

No Kim Jong Un liked him. You know, he

55:30

coached the basketball team. And

55:33

he did. I asked him about that. He

55:35

said, I like Dennis. You asked Kim during

55:37

one of his interviews. Yeah, I asked him.

55:40

He liked him. And

55:42

by the way, Dennis liked him, too. I

55:47

mean, I don't even know if the

55:49

Looking Glass does it. I mean, this

55:51

is someone who murders his own people.

55:53

I mean, Aquarians of Piagno. I mean,

55:55

I mean, this is one of the

55:57

most brutal dictatorships in the world represents.

58:00

he was forthcoming. It

58:02

sounds like he let you

58:04

lead the conversations. If I have any of

58:06

that wrong, please interject. He did. He

58:08

did. We spent a lot of time

58:10

together. What did you make of how easy it

58:12

was to get to him by simply telling him,

58:15

you know, you're writing about this thing that

58:17

he's more proud of than anything he did

58:19

as president? Well, that was also

58:21

strange, right? And when we started these conversations, it

58:23

was in May, 2021. And

58:27

at the time, certainly, I don't know most

58:29

people thought that Donald Trump would decide to

58:31

run for president and become the nominee again

58:33

after the insurrection. And he was

58:35

very deflated, but it was very easy to

58:37

access him. I went to Trump Tower. There

58:39

was no one around. I went up

58:41

the elevator. He was sitting alone in

58:44

his office. He didn't seem to have a lot

58:46

of people around him. He seemed very resentful, very

58:48

lonely, very sad. And

58:51

he wanted to devote significant amount of time to

58:53

talking to me. And in a lot of the

58:56

tapes, because I went back and listened to some

58:58

of these tapes, as we provided you with this

59:00

exclusive footage, he talks about how excited he is

59:02

to be talking about The Apprentice, how much he

59:04

enjoys it, how happy he is. And

59:07

the reason I got so much access was

59:10

because this is what he wants to talk

59:12

about. He's not interested in being commander in

59:14

chief. He's interested in reality TV. Rameen,

59:18

stay with us. I want to bring

59:20

into our conversation two of our favorite

59:22

friends, former Republican Congressman, MSNBC political analyst,

59:25

David Jolly, also joining us Democratic strategists

59:28

and director of the public policy program at Hunter

59:30

College, MSNBC political analyst, Basil Smickel. I

59:33

mean, David Jolly, I

59:35

didn't dare to hope that there would be an

59:37

aha moment in how

59:39

I could cover Trump, but

59:42

I feel like Rameen's reporting offers us that

59:44

aha moment. That he's

59:46

in on the joke. He tells Rameen

59:49

after I lost, Geraldo called me. I

59:51

mean, it's a tragedy that to Trump,

59:54

his supporters are dupes, a remarkable gift to

59:56

sort of have this body of reporting as

59:58

we head into the general election. Yeah,

1:00:02

it is, Nicole. And I think what I'm taken by

1:00:04

by Vermines reporting is this. We see

1:00:07

how fragile and unqualified Donald Trump

1:00:09

is to be president of

1:00:11

the United States, someone with that

1:00:13

type of eggshell personality and ego,

1:00:15

but also somebody that is so

1:00:17

superficial. You question whether

1:00:20

or not they can command the presidency and

1:00:22

the Oval Office. But I'm also

1:00:25

struck by, and this goes back to

1:00:27

some of Vermines' previous interviews as well,

1:00:30

part of it is just

1:00:32

personality of Donald Trump, admittedly

1:00:35

or apparently narcissistic personality, questions

1:00:37

around that. But other

1:00:39

issues are kind of frontal lobe

1:00:41

questions. I mean, true competency, ability

1:00:44

to command the presidency

1:00:46

and to lead the nation. And I guess

1:00:48

I would be curious of Vermin kind of

1:00:50

in that space. I mean, it's one thing

1:00:52

to see him as a reality star, but

1:00:55

as a reality star who is

1:00:58

so consumed by Dennis Rodman and

1:01:00

Madonna and The Apprentice, is

1:01:03

there a bigger picture there? I mean,

1:01:05

questions around his remembering Vermin you coming

1:01:08

to previous interviews and so

1:01:10

forth. The personality, I think

1:01:12

we know. The fragility, we know. We've

1:01:14

seen it. The arrogance, we

1:01:17

know. But on the

1:01:19

competency piece, the ability to lead

1:01:21

the nation, Vermin to the extent

1:01:23

you could perhaps provide color

1:01:25

to that, I think would be fascinating. Well,

1:01:28

I think the answer to that is no. He is

1:01:30

not able to lead the nation. We saw that last

1:01:32

time and we will see it again. He also

1:01:35

can't speak to what he accomplished as President

1:01:37

of the United States. He told me that

1:01:40

I was vaccinated because of him and because of what

1:01:42

he did. He said he wished

1:01:45

that he never listened to

1:01:47

Fauci, was very inconsistent

1:01:49

on COVID, was very resentful that people

1:01:51

blamed him for COVID. But also, as

1:01:53

I said yesterday, was celebrating that COVID

1:01:55

rates had spiked in India, which made

1:01:57

him, he thought, look better. try

1:04:00

it. No, it

1:04:02

really is. And there were two things that

1:04:04

were being touched on that really spoke

1:04:07

to me. One that when

1:04:09

he talked about this being so much

1:04:11

performance art for Donald Trump. I take

1:04:13

that because, you know, if

1:04:15

you if you really think about I

1:04:17

didn't watch The Apprentice, but if you

1:04:19

actually transfer what he did there into

1:04:21

his political life, you could tell that

1:04:23

he loves to preside

1:04:25

over processes and lord over

1:04:28

people who are going

1:04:30

to fight each other

1:04:32

for his political adulation. It's

1:04:34

like a drug to him. And when

1:04:36

he talks about when he talks about

1:04:38

ratings and and what that does for

1:04:40

his ego, just think about the impact

1:04:42

that that then has on the country.

1:04:45

It is not about policy. It is

1:04:47

a it is this really dark place

1:04:49

that he comes from where it really

1:04:52

is all about how much people

1:04:54

sort of glom onto him, regardless

1:04:56

of the policy impact

1:04:58

that it may have. And then,

1:05:01

you know, when we also talked

1:05:03

about the appreciation that he has

1:05:05

for celebrities, it's

1:05:07

you know, it's

1:05:09

the fame is a drug for him. And

1:05:12

I think about not just Dennis Rodman,

1:05:14

because I'd forgotten about that. But you

1:05:16

think about the Dennis Rodman's of the

1:05:18

world and all of the black celebrities

1:05:21

that he surrounds himself with. It's because

1:05:23

he thinks that's the only way to

1:05:25

get attention from black people, which always

1:05:27

has been very insulting to

1:05:29

me. And it's also very pernicious, particularly

1:05:31

from a from a policy point of

1:05:33

view. I also just

1:05:36

very quickly remember Randall

1:05:39

Pinkett, that African American brother who

1:05:42

won that season of The Apprentice

1:05:44

and was asked by Donald Trump

1:05:46

to share that victory.

1:05:48

And it always suggested to

1:05:50

me that and this seems

1:05:52

to be true to form to him to

1:05:55

this day, that he cannot fathom cannot stomach

1:05:58

a person of color, particularly African

1:06:00

American. man of substance, actually

1:06:02

standing on his own. That

1:06:04

actually needs to be shared

1:06:06

and somehow disqualified given,

1:06:10

you know, because that just doesn't, it's not on

1:06:12

brand for him. And you

1:06:14

put all of this together, it really

1:06:16

does seem that there's so much about

1:06:18

what he does that just goes into

1:06:20

that adulation piece, and it's never

1:06:22

about policy. And that's why one wonders, or

1:06:25

should wonder out loud, where is he taking

1:06:27

this country? Given everything that's going on in

1:06:29

the world, where are you taking it? I

1:06:33

want to ask for me that question. I'm going to

1:06:35

call on Audible here. I'm going to ask all of

1:06:37

you to stick around through a quick break. We'll continue

1:06:39

this conversation on the other side.

1:06:41

Also head for us. It's one week

1:06:43

until the first presidential debate of the

1:06:45

general election. The disgraced ex-president and his

1:06:47

allies have set a very

1:06:49

low bar for President Joe Biden to

1:06:52

clear, even as he's now making excuses

1:06:54

as to why the president could actually

1:06:56

out-dual him on the debate stage. It's

1:06:59

both, neither, all the above, none of

1:07:01

the above. We can't tell. Bombshell New

1:07:03

reporting out this afternoon as well in

1:07:06

the New York Times about the judge

1:07:08

who's overseeing Trump's criminal classified documents case.

1:07:10

Judge Aileen Kennan rejected suggestions and urgings

1:07:13

from two federal judges that she walked

1:07:15

away and stepped aside from this case.

1:07:17

She instead chose to keep the case

1:07:19

in which President Donald Trump, who

1:07:22

appointed her, is also the criminal defendant. We'll

1:07:24

bring you that story and how it's playing

1:07:26

out later in the hour. Deadland White House

1:07:28

continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

1:07:37

We're back with Ramin David and Basil. I

1:07:39

mean, Ramin, it strikes me that

1:07:41

you were in Mar-a-Lago, which is a

1:07:43

crime scene. And that's where he took

1:07:45

the classified documents that he stole. You're

1:07:48

talking about two of his faves, Kim

1:07:50

Jong-un and Dennis Rodman. And I

1:07:53

just, you know, my brain, my former White

1:07:55

House staffer, goes to the national security risk

1:07:57

that is Donald Trump. Can you just describe?

1:08:00

whether his office was secured, whether there

1:08:02

were people coming, I mean, what, what,

1:08:04

just take me inside how freewheeling

1:08:06

it was, that's what it sounds like. When

1:08:09

I talked to him at Mar-a-Lago, it was in November,

1:08:12

I actually didn't, we didn't, he didn't take me into his

1:08:14

office, so I didn't get to see what

1:08:16

we all saw on social media and the pictures that we saw

1:08:18

from the FBI. But we sat in

1:08:20

a public space, it was quiet, it was deserted,

1:08:23

he was preparing to do

1:08:26

another interview, a TV interview. That

1:08:29

day, and he seemed to

1:08:31

be kind of in hiding,

1:08:33

right? There was stuff

1:08:35

happening with the New York Civil Trial, Don

1:08:38

Jr. was testifying that day, he

1:08:41

actually called Eric on the

1:08:43

phone while I was with him, asked

1:08:45

me to turn my tape reporter off and gave Eric

1:08:48

kind of a pep talk. It

1:08:50

was very staged dad, theatrical,

1:08:52

trying to present the image that the family

1:08:55

was okay and they were unified. And then

1:08:57

he told me that he won the trial,

1:08:59

even though clearly he didn't, and the verdict

1:09:01

hadn't been issued yet. But

1:09:04

he was creating, even in that moment,

1:09:06

he was creating an alternate reality and

1:09:08

trying to pretend something was happening that

1:09:10

wasn't actually happening. Ramin,

1:09:14

what is your sense of how

1:09:16

he's viewing this

1:09:20

run? I mean, what is your sense, and

1:09:22

I know you were talking to him about

1:09:24

the apprentice and these things give us incredible

1:09:26

visibility to his state of mind, his competence

1:09:28

or lack thereof, but what

1:09:30

did you glean of anything about how he

1:09:32

views this run for president? I

1:09:34

think it's very simple. I think that Donald Trump as

1:09:37

a reality star was trained to look

1:09:39

at Nielsen ratings as a sign of success. And

1:09:42

he was always driven by the Nielsen

1:09:44

ratings. NBC executives told me he would

1:09:46

wake up early, get the ratings, fax

1:09:48

them to other executives with like a

1:09:50

sign, his signature, his autograph, and

1:09:53

champion and cheer his ratings. And

1:09:55

to him, the poll numbers are

1:09:57

similar to the ratings, a sign

1:09:59

of approval. And the reason he's

1:10:01

running for president is that he is very excited

1:10:03

and happy that he has high poll numbers. And

1:10:06

that's what drives him. It's not the policy.

1:10:08

It's not the office. It's not the job

1:10:10

that he'll do as president of the United

1:10:12

States. It's the numbers and

1:10:14

the fact that people are supporting his

1:10:16

run. He's very, very reinvigorated by that.

1:10:20

I mean, David Jolly, it just

1:10:23

brings back to mind Kevin McCarthy's

1:10:25

resuscitation of him. We could

1:10:27

have been done with him from politics. We

1:10:30

could have found some other way to juice

1:10:32

his gears or whatever it is that ratings do

1:10:34

for him. McCarthy

1:10:37

made it, being the leader of the

1:10:40

Republican Party, the thing that replaced the

1:10:42

ratings. Yeah, Nicole,

1:10:44

I was discussing with Rameen, I think, in

1:10:46

a previous conversation that he alluded to the

1:10:48

fact if we had just built him an

1:10:51

additional apprentice set, maybe he never would have

1:10:53

run for the White House. But

1:10:55

I think the most important takeaway from this

1:10:57

and what is striking is the

1:11:00

contrast that we always come back to between a

1:11:02

Donald Trump and a Joe Biden. And

1:11:04

we have to look at it this way. With

1:11:07

Donald Trump, what Rameen has

1:11:09

exposed is a fragile, unstable,

1:11:11

artificial man who was

1:11:13

born on third base and stole second, but convinced

1:11:15

the American people to make him president of

1:11:17

the United States. And he

1:11:19

is that celebrity. He is that reality

1:11:22

TV star. And what we have in

1:11:24

Joe Biden is a sober president capable

1:11:26

of leading the nation in this moment

1:11:29

and for the next four years, not

1:11:31

just here domestically in the U.S.,

1:11:34

defending freedom and growing an economy, but

1:11:37

also leading the U.S. across

1:11:39

the world stage, particularly in defense of freedom

1:11:41

that has been embraced and led by the

1:11:43

West for generations. That

1:11:46

contrast, I mean, it is so important

1:11:48

that we expose what Rameen is reporting.

1:11:50

Because it speaks to the weakness of

1:11:53

the criminal Donald Trump, who he is,

1:11:55

making himself out to be somebody else.

1:11:57

But he's running against a sober, successful.

1:12:00

president, incumbent president and Joe Biden,

1:12:02

who deserves another four years. That

1:12:05

package together is so critically important.

1:12:08

Yeah, I mean, Basil, this is where

1:12:10

it's more about us, right, than them.

1:12:13

I mean, I think remains tape really

1:12:17

is an exclamation point on something. A

1:12:19

lot of people that have covered him

1:12:21

intuitive with his obsession with what the

1:12:23

castings look like, not the appointments, the

1:12:25

obsession with John Bolton's mustache, the

1:12:28

obsession with all the women who

1:12:30

look like Hope Hicks and

1:12:32

Ivanka, the obsession with his own

1:12:35

daughter's appearance, the

1:12:37

obsession with Dennis Rodman's virility. That's what it

1:12:39

is, right? So you got to be a

1:12:41

pretty cool cat to get Madonna when she

1:12:43

was the number one person. That's celebrity plus

1:12:46

virility that makes him, you know,

1:12:48

I don't know what. And

1:12:50

now it's about us, right? I mean, we

1:12:53

have all the information in front of us.

1:12:57

Yeah, so that's true because a lot of what

1:12:59

Donald Trump does is like he's putting together another

1:13:01

show, right? That show happens to be running, you

1:13:03

know, happens to run the country if he were

1:13:05

to be elected and that's the cautionary note. But

1:13:08

I know and I want to just add this other

1:13:10

point too, because it is another cautionary

1:13:12

note for all of us. As we

1:13:14

talk about reality shows, there's

1:13:16

a reason they're still on. You

1:13:19

know, it's because in some ways when

1:13:21

you people, some people watch a reality

1:13:23

show, they can say, I'm glad

1:13:25

I'm not like them. And that gives them sort

1:13:27

of a sense of comfort. And

1:13:30

in some instances, you have people that watch

1:13:32

these shows that say I want

1:13:34

to be more like them. So in

1:13:36

some so when you put those sort of two

1:13:38

things together, it's almost like these

1:13:40

shows can help build

1:13:42

value in some in some of the folks

1:13:44

that watch it. And that's the scary part

1:13:46

about what Donald Trump does. Somehow

1:13:49

he has managed to find

1:13:51

ways to give some of

1:13:53

his supporters, his followers, that

1:13:55

sort of sense of empowerment

1:13:58

for them. district

1:22:00

court judge has to follow what the Supreme Court

1:22:02

said, right? So this is

1:22:04

not ignorance. At this point, she

1:22:06

is intentionally dragging this out and

1:22:08

then the question becomes why and the

1:22:11

question, the reason the answer is so

1:22:13

obvious because it helps Donald Trump,

1:22:15

each one of her rulings, every time

1:22:17

she has gotten something wrong or she

1:22:20

has punted some question down the road

1:22:22

that she could have dealt with

1:22:24

sooner each time it's to

1:22:26

benefit Donald Trump. And when each and

1:22:28

every time it benefits him, the bias

1:22:30

is quite clear. Yeah,

1:22:33

I mean, and I guess that's it, right? If

1:22:35

there if there was a fact pattern that deviated

1:22:37

from what you just articulated, that that would be

1:22:39

a different thing for us to to

1:22:42

rumble with, but that isn't the

1:22:44

case. All right. No one's going anywhere. I have to sneak in a

1:22:46

very short break. We will all be right back. We're

1:22:53

back with Mary and Christy. Mary, what are Jack

1:22:55

Smith's options at this point? Well,

1:22:58

it really depends on what happens over the

1:23:01

next three court days. Tomorrow,

1:23:03

as you already indicated, the judge will

1:23:05

have a full day hearing on just

1:23:08

one part of another of the many

1:23:10

motions to dismiss filed by Mr. Trump.

1:23:13

And that is over whether he was

1:23:15

properly appointed under the appointments clause

1:23:18

of the U.S. Constitution. On

1:23:20

Monday morning, she will hear the other half

1:23:22

of that same motion, which is

1:23:24

whether he was properly paid

1:23:27

and funded under the appropriations clause

1:23:29

of the Constitution. Now, if she

1:23:31

were to decide to dismiss the

1:23:33

case on either of those grounds,

1:23:35

that is an appealable order for

1:23:37

Jack Smith. Now, you'll recall, though,

1:23:39

in so many other motions to

1:23:41

dismiss on a variety of different

1:23:43

grounds, she sort of made preliminary

1:23:45

rulings, nonfinal rulings that prohibited him

1:23:47

or prevented him from being able

1:23:50

to take an appeal. She has

1:23:52

said at the time, for example,

1:23:54

on the motion that related

1:23:56

to a motion to dismiss on

1:23:58

the grounds of the presidential record. She

1:24:00

said, I'm denying this, but without

1:24:02

prejudice for you to re-raise it

1:24:05

at trial. Again, putting the

1:24:07

prospect of the jury

1:24:09

already being sworn in and

1:24:12

jeopardy attaching before the judge might make

1:24:14

a decision, which at that point would

1:24:16

not be appealable. So she's been very

1:24:19

clever, I think, in not fully ruling

1:24:22

on things, thus preventing him from

1:24:24

appealing. However, on Monday afternoon, she

1:24:27

will also be hearing a Jacksonist

1:24:29

motion to modify Mr. Trump's

1:24:32

conditions of release and

1:24:34

to modify them to include essentially a gag

1:24:36

order, an order that he cannot make kind

1:24:38

of a tax that put law enforcement in

1:24:41

imminent risk of danger. That

1:24:43

is something, if she denies that,

1:24:45

that is also an immediately appealable order.

1:24:47

Bail orders that have to do with

1:24:49

bail or the conditions of pretrial release are

1:24:52

appealable by both sides. So we have

1:24:54

two possibilities here coming out of these

1:24:56

next few days, depending on how

1:24:59

she rules. I

1:25:01

mean, Kristy, I guess the tragedy for the

1:25:03

rule of law is that this is a

1:25:05

case for which the

1:25:07

facts were never in dispute.

1:25:09

And for the American people,

1:25:11

hardline Trump-loving conservatives like Bill

1:25:13

Barr described it as an

1:25:15

open and shut criminal

1:25:18

liability for Donald

1:25:20

Trump. And for

1:25:22

this to be the case that gets gummed up

1:25:25

by, you know, I only understood about a

1:25:28

third of the process piece of this, but

1:25:30

it sounds like it's still a very, it's

1:25:32

not a clear path to having this breakthrough,

1:25:34

any of what she's gummed up. And I

1:25:36

wonder what you make of the fact that

1:25:39

Trump will stand before the voters before he

1:25:41

stands before a jury of his peers. It's

1:25:45

really shameful because, as Mary said,

1:25:48

even if she gets a number

1:25:50

of these rulings wrong and these

1:25:52

get appealed, at some point,

1:25:54

you know, the rulings

1:25:56

that are incorrect, yes, may lead to

1:25:58

Jack Smith's being able to move for

1:26:00

her recusal. But by that point, the

1:26:02

damage has been done because the American

1:26:04

people have not been able to see

1:26:07

and hear from the witnesses and see

1:26:10

the documents in this case, or at

1:26:12

least the ones that are unclassified, and

1:26:14

understand just how strong a case Jack

1:26:16

Smith put together. They won't be entitled

1:26:18

to learn about what happened here and

1:26:21

just how egregious this crime is before

1:26:23

they cast their votes. And so even

1:26:25

if she ends up being recused down

1:26:27

the road, she's done what I think

1:26:30

she set out to do, which was

1:26:32

delays this, to make sure that the

1:26:34

American people did not get this information

1:26:36

before they voted. Mary

1:26:39

McCord and Kristy Greenberg for making sense of

1:26:42

all of this. We thank you so much.

1:26:44

If you have more questions about big legal

1:26:46

stories that we cover here on the program,

1:26:48

our very own Jordan Rubin answers them every

1:26:51

week for our deadline legal newsletter. Take your

1:26:53

phone out, scan the QR code up on

1:26:55

your screen right now, and sign yourself up.

1:26:58

You get a chance to get the answer to

1:27:00

your question in the next edition. Another break for

1:27:02

us will be right back. Two

1:27:11

beluga whales were rescued from Harkiv,

1:27:13

Ukraine and transported to an aquarium

1:27:15

in Spain. Experts called it among

1:27:17

the most complex marine mammal rescues

1:27:19

ever undertaken. The whales were taken

1:27:21

from an aquarium as Russian bombardment

1:27:23

has intensified in eastern Ukraine. In

1:27:25

recent weeks, bombs exploded close enough

1:27:27

to ripple the waters of their

1:27:29

home, not just vulnerable to direct

1:27:32

hits. The aquarium was facing a

1:27:34

food shortage and difficulties keeping the

1:27:36

waters cool enough for the belugas,

1:27:38

which are native to the Arctic

1:27:40

and need cold water to survive.

1:27:42

The constant attacks on Ukraine's power

1:27:44

grid mean that the aquarium had

1:27:46

to rely on generator power, making

1:27:48

it difficult to keep the waters

1:27:51

cooled enough. So after months of

1:27:53

planning, the belugas moved from Harkiv

1:27:55

to Odessa over the

1:27:57

border to Moldova, facing paperwork and

1:27:59

complications. and hours added to

1:28:01

their already tight timeline, they finally

1:28:04

arrived in the Spanish city of

1:28:06

Valencia yesterday morning before dawn. Another

1:28:09

break for us, we'll be right back. Thank

1:28:13

you so much for letting us into your

1:28:15

homes during these truly extraordinary times, we're

1:28:17

so grateful. Hey parents,

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