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1:14

I. Grew up in West Baltimore Santiago

1:16

from three different neighborhoods santo Holland

1:18

Park and will be called the

1:20

Avenue A Grow One of mine.

1:23

Kids. Are hard

1:25

work and father a very

1:27

loving family. We. Were we

1:30

were very close. Are we door closed today.

1:32

This. Is Ron Bishop. He's. The

1:35

youngest of all of his siblings, then he

1:37

has a twin brother named Don't. You.

1:39

Remember sometimes people wouldn't be able to tell

1:42

them apart and just call both of them.

1:44

Wrong. Dawn. I just think

1:46

of my childhood as having fun all

1:49

the time and there were times when

1:51

my father would get laid off and

1:53

I'm in it. He never missed a

1:55

beat. Lot of things we didn't have

1:57

but I'll always told people there are

1:59

no. We never consider ourselves poor

2:01

because I'm we were happiness kids you

2:04

just there were things you couldn't have

2:06

black a sale you know did miss

2:08

it because you have fun with grub.

2:10

It enables us full of kids. For

2:14

kind of things to do with kids in the neighborhood

2:16

where you always outside. Playing all the time.

2:18

Yes, like com You know this for

2:20

any major cities if you have good,

2:22

he grew up in a row home.

2:25

decent ones a one block radius. You

2:27

have kids who have maybe it's ten

2:29

to thirty kids and when block radius?

2:32

So my black, we at least twenty

2:34

of us. And we retain

2:36

like they're hold Fantail Hall of Pot

2:38

family. So there's

2:40

always someone didn't run around with.

2:43

All. The time all the time and

2:45

back than Kids Easter Look for other

2:47

kids to play with a lesser youths.

2:49

You might meet a tier for the

2:51

very first time and in that particular

2:53

to were in the being your best

2:55

friend for a long time. When

2:59

did you meet do with duct on

3:01

guys are makes it is making me

3:03

laugh because I'm a do with duckett.

3:05

First grade level put us at nineteen

3:08

seventy five a thing and down the

3:10

sat beside me he was very quiet

3:12

to it as a he eats he

3:14

was a tall as see it in

3:16

the class and he'd and same with

3:18

his aim was to each other which

3:21

is like you axe to borrow a

3:23

from a pencil but he's he was

3:25

a really nice gas. Over

3:28

the years run into it that to know

3:30

each other better. They'd. Played

3:32

the playground even after do it

3:34

Transferred to a different school nearby.

3:39

When. One was in eighth grade. His

3:41

oldest brother George was in the army.

3:44

He returned home just before Christmas and

3:46

nice needed to. One

3:49

night in January, George had plans to

3:51

meet up with friends at Shake and

3:53

Bake. A complex that had a

3:55

roller skating rink. And he

3:57

told us he told my sister I'll be back. And

4:00

maybe an hour will later we get a

4:02

phone call. I actually answered the phone call

4:04

and when I as the phone he was

4:06

a family friend. he's right away just limited

4:09

to get shot. To

4:11

which does. He was twenty two years

4:13

a. Month.

4:16

Later learned the George had accidentally

4:19

bumped into someone. And. When

4:21

he went to sixties be the guy will

4:23

he didn't accept that well my my brother

4:25

said what was causing me sad to say

4:27

excuse me but the guy just couldn't accept

4:29

the apology so I'm were led to the

4:31

other my brother say well forget it says

4:34

he walked away when he shot him in

4:36

a bad. And you

4:38

know, but we heard that Nice. We were

4:40

like wait a minute The way we grew

4:42

up. This is what my father taught us.

4:44

led you walk away from situations you don't

4:46

argue with people and will use they would.

4:48

You have to say that, just keep it

4:50

moving. So to hear that my brother

4:52

was a peacemaker and when he walked

4:54

away and how the god to settle

4:56

for no reason is it was very

4:58

bad for us. Wrong

5:03

started ninth grade the fall after his

5:05

brother died. He was surprised to see

5:07

his old friend do with duck it

5:09

back at the same school as him.

5:12

When. He pops up in that nice grave

5:14

in my life grading class l A

5:16

whoa what are you doing here He

5:18

looked at me like as if we

5:20

didn't remember me like come on man

5:23

you know who I am and as

5:25

that was he was are you know

5:27

up He was a jokes the to

5:29

the of try to downplay things and

5:31

be sort of silly like almost hit

5:33

like that Mr Bean not been Benny

5:35

Hill tie behemoth so he'll give you

5:37

totally reconnected. Oh yes right away. Once

5:40

as their school. Harlem. Park

5:42

Junior High was Tufts. And

5:45

lot of kids who graduate of moved

5:47

on or just dropped out or come

5:49

back to hang out at the school

5:51

so you eat your There was always

5:53

this potential for like bullies or good

5:56

getting into fights. Studies.

5:58

And dual, it's than a lot of time. to go to decide stay

6:00

away from all that? All

6:02

the time. We took a hallway,

6:04

myself, DeWitt, and another friend of

6:06

ours from the neighborhood. We

6:08

used to take this hallway, this

6:10

empty lonely hallway, just to avoid

6:12

the crowds because you always

6:14

get caught up in some stuff in the

6:17

hallways. And back then some kids would not

6:19

use their manners and say, excuse me,

6:21

you can get bumped. And back then,

6:23

if you got bumped, then that was

6:25

a sign of aggression. And if the

6:27

person didn't say, excuse me, then there's

6:29

the potential to get in the fight.

6:31

So we would like to avoid all

6:34

of that stuff by just taking this

6:36

other hallway. One

6:38

day that fall, when it was a little cooler

6:40

outside, DeWitt came to

6:42

school wearing a Georgetown basketball starter jacket.

6:45

I'm like, whoa, what are you doing with that? That's

6:47

a pretty good jacket. And you know,

6:49

back then, if you had like a starter jacket, you

6:51

know, you were looked upon as like a really

6:54

cool guy. So for him to even have a

6:56

joy. Actually, he was the first one I saw

6:58

with a Georgetown jacket. And we were all made

7:00

that he had it. What

7:02

did explain what a Georgetown jacket was? What did it

7:04

look like? And why are they so special? See,

7:07

Georgetown, let me see. Because back

7:10

then, no one really never heard

7:12

of Georgetown. And when

7:14

Georgetown basketball team came to

7:16

prominence, they had almost

7:19

all black team. But what made

7:21

Georgetown special was they had

7:23

two local Baltimoreans on

7:25

their team, Reggie Williams

7:28

and David Wingate. When they're

7:30

in Georgetown, they're representing Baltimore, East Baltimore,

7:32

Baltimore. So that was a special thing

7:34

for us because hey, it's like, hey,

7:36

these are local guys. And

7:39

they're playing on a national championship

7:41

team or soon to be national

7:43

championship team. The

7:46

whip was wearing his Georgetown jacket one

7:48

day that November when he were

7:50

on and a friend of theirs were walking

7:52

to lunch. As usual,

7:54

they took the quiet hallway. It

7:57

was empty that day. And That's when someone

7:59

came. hey my from behind us

8:01

and he grabbed the when. Body.

8:04

Yeah I'm at a bag but he had

8:06

the got him as I target the gonna

8:09

my face so the government was within like

8:11

six inches of my face so this was

8:13

done with him. He took the gun and

8:15

any put in the back to do with

8:18

neck. Or try to get

8:20

the attention from. My

8:22

our friend. As when

8:24

he saw the guy with a gun.

8:27

And then he started running and

8:29

I started running behind this this

8:31

friend and so as were running

8:34

with we're approaching the Si units

8:36

hallway and there's ah Tao. I

8:38

mean they're still stairwells so send

8:41

him go! Did a double doors

8:43

and downstairs us when we hit

8:45

a gunshot. For

8:48

as we go downstairs me into the

8:50

cafeteria as will we see mister English

8:53

the I'm unit principal and so be

8:55

went straight to have the say hey

8:57

we are with think the with got

8:59

shot and say what like that and

9:01

are lessons we told Mr English with

9:04

Danny in the middle the cafeteria says

9:06

with home is the english that's when

9:08

the which came to the double doors

9:10

of a cafeteria and I'm he ran

9:13

he saw as right this danny for

9:15

he ran to to us and bought

9:17

time he got to was to collapse

9:19

and Mr English arms and that's when

9:22

he got the attention from other students

9:24

who was sitting in the only talk

9:26

about cafeteria that my have three hundred

9:28

students at that time and would he

9:30

collapsed as land you had a gas

9:33

student thanks and and muslims the English

9:35

walk them out. I'm.

9:49

Linda Whitley and into the Just

9:51

Curious. Could. You tell that he

9:53

was bleeding, that he had been shot. Yeah,

9:55

because he was holding his neck and he

9:57

was sort of like of like either. So.

10:00

Run him but limping extra put it

10:02

is what he was struggling to run.

10:06

Answer to it was taken out of

10:08

the cafeterias wanted to spend. had no

10:10

idea what to do next. So

10:13

we just say, you know what, let's

10:15

just leave school. Runs

10:17

friend lived across the street from the

10:19

school. But one lived about

10:21

a mile away. He asked his

10:23

friend to walk home with him. And.

10:26

We waited a while and then

10:28

we are Baltimore City patrol car

10:30

pulled up and up officer.out and

10:32

start you started talking to was

10:35

a denier Me or yaks us

10:37

to go down to Guam will

10:39

be called the of the main

10:41

police station downtown Baltimore. So

10:44

when we get to the police station.

10:48

The Police The patrol officer walked

10:50

us up to the Homicide department

10:52

and will we get there? We

10:55

sit in the lobby. And.

10:57

Eventually, how much they got me? Donald

10:59

Kincaid Six seem like a very nice

11:02

man. Donald. Kincaid was

11:04

a detective assigned to the case.

11:06

And. And dumb it wouldn't know.

11:08

He introduced himself while the patrol

11:11

officer was sitting there with us

11:13

and I have the point this

11:15

out out of nowhere to patrol

11:17

officer told Dawn authentic this he

11:19

said the big one meaning me

11:21

towards a smaller one than the

11:24

other witness that was with up

11:26

with us that I told him

11:28

that the say anything. And

11:31

I just blew me away because I never said

11:33

that. Someone a patrol officer left

11:35

the roma to Donna can kinda like hates

11:37

I never said there are are know why

11:39

the officer told you that I never told

11:41

the other with the to not say anything.

11:44

Done of Kincaid took run into an interview

11:47

room. Run told him what

11:49

he could remember. That the person who

11:51

shot do it which wasn't months. He

11:54

been wearing a gray hoodie and had

11:56

dark skin and a saint. Must deaths.

11:59

during the end the um Donald

12:02

Kincaid he left came back a few

12:04

minutes that's when he told me that

12:06

um the way it didn't make it and I'm looking at

12:08

him like what do you mean he didn't make it because

12:11

when I saw him it looked like he was okay

12:13

even though he was shot it didn't

12:16

seem like it was a big deal because

12:18

you know he he he had enough strength

12:20

to run and get to us in the

12:22

cafeteria so you know you you

12:24

know your mind my mind is racing I and I'm

12:27

getting this empty feeling like I got

12:30

when um when my brother got

12:32

shot so

12:34

when Donald Kincaid told me I'm

12:36

experiencing my brother's death all over

12:39

again and I'm like what is

12:41

happening and you

12:43

know you're in the state of shock you

12:45

don't know what to do you're just sitting there

12:47

and of course you have to sit through this

12:49

interview to ask you to ask some more questions

12:53

how long did they keep you I

12:56

would say several hours I

12:58

can't give you like a distinct like um

13:00

or like two three hours I know it

13:02

was several hours by the time

13:05

I left out of the main

13:07

out of homicide department it

13:09

was nighttime the

13:12

same patrol officer who had picked Ron

13:14

up earlier drove him home and

13:18

this officer he never dropped me off at

13:20

my house he sort of dropped me off

13:22

a block away and told me you know

13:25

I had to get out and walk and I'm like

13:27

huh you said you can get out right here and

13:29

walk I'm like okay and as I'm

13:31

walking down to the house you know sort

13:34

of like it your paranoid you're seeing things

13:36

you don't know someone's gonna come out in

13:38

the alley behind the car and shoot you

13:40

so by the time I you know knocked

13:42

knocked on the door my mother was there

13:45

and there she asked me what happened I

13:47

had to go through everything and they

13:49

would just you know they was heartbroken to know that

13:51

a classmate a good friend of

13:53

mine was shot and she

13:55

treated his death as like my

13:57

brother's death. DeWitt

14:01

Duckett's death made the front page of

14:03

the Baltimore Sun the next day. According

14:07

to the School of Security Chief, it was

14:09

the first time that a student had been

14:11

murdered inside a Baltimore public school. The

14:15

Sun reported the victim's two

14:17

companions told police that a

14:19

teenage boy came up from behind, grabbed

14:22

the collar of the Duckett used coat,

14:24

waved a gun and said, give me your

14:27

jacket. Police

14:29

also said that there had been no other

14:31

students nearby when the shooting happened. What

14:35

was it like to go to school? I mean, was

14:37

everyone in the school talking about what had happened and

14:39

who had done it? No

14:41

one knew. No one knew who'd done

14:43

it, but everyone was, I mean,

14:46

the whole school was shocked. And

14:48

you see students crying or talking about it,

14:51

like, why would someone do this to him?

14:54

Because he was a nice guy, he didn't have

14:56

a not a bad reputation at all. And

14:58

when we got to class, at

15:00

my home room class, we had my

15:03

home room teacher who was Mr. Dozier.

15:05

And so as soon as we all sat

15:08

down, he looked at us and he

15:10

said, you know what, I'm sorry

15:12

to hear about what happened

15:14

to DeWitt, something like

15:17

that. And he said things like this happened

15:19

unfortunately. And then

15:21

he started crying. When

15:23

he cried, almost the whole class started crying.

15:26

So it was a very emotional thing for us.

15:32

DeWitt's mother, Franzell Duckett, told the

15:34

Baltimore Evening Sun that the Georgetown

15:36

jacket had been one of DeWitt's

15:39

prized possessions and that it

15:41

was the first thing he bought when he got his

15:43

first paycheck from a summer job. He

15:45

bought it for $75. She

15:49

said DeWitt bought a lot of his own clothes and

15:52

wanted to be a doctor or a lawyer when he

15:54

grew up. She was

15:56

divorced from DeWitt's father and DeWitt

15:58

had always told her he'd take care. when

16:00

he was older. In

16:04

the days after the shooting, Detective

16:06

Kincaid stopped by Ron's house several

16:09

times to question him further. He

16:12

would show Ron a collection of Polaroid

16:14

photos of teenagers, an

16:16

ask-ron if any of them had been involved

16:18

in the shooting. Ron

16:22

recognized some of the boys, three

16:25

16-year-olds named Alfred Chestnut,

16:27

Ransom Watkins, and

16:29

Andrew Stewart. Ron

16:31

told Detective Kincaid it wasn't

16:33

any of them. They were all

16:35

guys I knew from the neighborhood, and

16:37

not only that, they also

16:40

attended Harlem Park Elementary, Jr.

16:42

High. I mean, Andrew

16:44

and I, we go back to Leith, maybe 6

16:48

or 7, and we used to

16:50

play at the playground. We called it the

16:52

Kerry Street Playground. What made that

16:54

playground so special was they had

16:56

a tire swing, and Andrew and

16:59

I would take time swinging each other. Andrew

17:02

Alfred and Ransom were two years older

17:04

than Ron, but they'd been

17:06

seen at the school the day DeWitt was

17:08

shot by some staff members who

17:11

reported seeing a group of older teenagers hanging

17:13

out and goofing around in the hallways. But

17:17

Ron said it wasn't them. This

17:21

Kincaid kept coming by. Once

17:23

he showed up twice in one day. The

17:26

second time, past midnight, Ron's

17:28

mother had to wake him up. And

17:32

Donald Kincaid, he's

17:34

a smooth, tall guy at the

17:37

moment, or at that time, very nice guy. But

17:40

then I could tell when I told him, I

17:43

don't recognize anyone that was involved in

17:45

DeWitt shooting in those pictures, and

17:47

he looked very tired and frustrated. But

17:51

I do remember. And then he left. The

17:55

next day, Ron went to DeWitt's funeral. And

17:58

At the same time, If

18:00

like, I'm reliving my brother's for an oval

18:02

as well. So it was a strange, most

18:05

strange, as empty as feeling ever lights to.

18:07

This is just a few months apart and

18:09

I'm back at as the one up. Sustainable

18:11

again. And my does the

18:14

So said. Later. That evening,

18:16

a patrol car showed up at Rounds Have.

18:19

To. Take does contain. Wanted to speak with him

18:21

again. This time at

18:23

the police headquarters. Some.

18:26

Officers picked him up without checking in

18:28

with rounds. Parents. This.

18:30

Time when I get their arm.

18:33

You. Know Donald King can be sort

18:35

of like. You

18:38

know, flat, he's our business. He

18:40

serious this time. Run

18:42

remember his detectors Kincaid certain the

18:45

Polaroid soda line up again and

18:47

again as drawn to shot do

18:49

list. Might. Well none

18:52

of these people are. No,

18:54

The person's here are recognized.

18:57

As the shooter he said oh yes,

18:59

you do. So

19:02

he and I go back and forth. Recap.

19:04

Go back and forth. hello. This last that

19:06

I don't know both. what I really remember

19:08

it is. He made

19:10

a statement of i'm you know what do

19:13

not going to leave your your as is

19:15

not gonna leave here if I have to

19:17

keep your as here the whole night and

19:19

I told him well i guess you won't

19:22

have to keep me here the whole night

19:24

because I don't know what you're talking about

19:26

and they were back and forth and desk

19:28

where his voice escalated he got really tense

19:31

clenched fist. All the stuff and then

19:33

he said, well, I. Think watch

19:35

it was ah to put the goddamn

19:37

he do that wall or the window

19:39

and I met a wall the window.

19:42

for some like wow guess we'll have to

19:45

put my he had to the wall a

19:47

widow because i don't know what you're talking

19:49

about we went back and forth and he

19:51

gets super frustrated angry they you want to

19:54

pick to ny and given a pig and

19:56

a toll on that bacon anything and then

19:58

he started making gestures to his gun. And

20:01

when you grow up in an all-black neighborhood

20:04

and you see what officers do to, like,

20:06

people in my neighborhood, like innocent people,

20:09

not just criminals, but innocent people, then

20:11

you know you can't trust this officer.

20:15

Ron says he was feeling more and more

20:17

scared. He started

20:19

pointing to different Polaroids in front of

20:21

him. According to

20:24

Ron, after the first few photos, Detective

20:26

Kincaid would say, no,

20:28

keep going. And when

20:31

I pointed to Alfred Chestnut, he said, oh, he

20:33

was the shooter, right? And I'm

20:35

like, um, I don't know.

20:37

He said he was the shooter. Then I realized

20:39

that's who he wants me to say. He wants

20:41

me to say Alfred is the shooter. Ron

20:45

says slowly Detective Kincaid also

20:47

guided him to Andrew Stewart

20:50

and Ransom Watkins, who

20:52

he seemed to think were Alfred's accomplices. And

20:56

then he placed a statement in front

20:58

of Ron to sign. Ron

21:00

didn't feel like he had a choice. And

21:03

as I'm signing the statement, all

21:05

that frustration or anger, it goes to

21:07

happiness. It

21:09

goes, he's like overjoyed, like, oh,

21:12

I saw this case. I

21:14

mean, you must have felt terrible, but

21:16

also been relieved because you had been so

21:19

terrified about what Detective Kincaid was going to

21:21

do to you. Yeah, actually,

21:23

I just felt terrible. Ron

21:27

wasn't the only witness who'd identified the

21:29

three teenagers. Earlier

21:32

that day, police had spoken with a 13 year old

21:35

whose school security had called a

21:37

possible witness. She

21:39

also identified Alfred, Ransom and Andrew.

21:43

That's when Ron was brought to police headquarters.

21:47

Two more students. One of them

21:49

was the student who'd been with Ron and do it in

21:51

the hallway the day of the shooting were

21:54

also brought in. None of

21:56

them were accompanied by a parent. One

21:59

of the kids mothers. showed up at the police station to

22:01

find him. He could hear

22:03

her from the interrogation room yelling, let him

22:05

out. By

22:08

the end of that night, the police had

22:10

four witnesses, including Ron,

22:12

who all identified. Alfred,

22:15

Ransom, and Andrew. We'll

22:21

be right back. Thanks

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box while your subscription is active. Alfred

24:44

Chestnut, Ransom Watkins, and Andrew

24:47

Stewart were arrested very early on

24:49

Thanksgiving morning 1983 and charged with

24:51

first degree murder. A

24:55

police spokesperson told the Baltimore Sun they

24:58

issued warrants after they quote finally

25:00

came up with some more eyewitnesses. Police

25:05

had found a Georgetown starter jacket in

25:07

Alfred Chestnut's room when they arrested

25:09

him but his

25:11

mother told the Sun that she bought it for

25:14

him and that she had a receipt to

25:16

prove it. Alfred

25:19

Ransom and Andrew, who would become known as

25:21

the Harlem Park Three, would

25:23

be tried as adults. They

25:25

were 16. Ron

25:27

was 14. I

25:30

thought of them like, oh my God, I'm

25:32

putting them in the worst situation possible.

25:34

They're juveniles. They're basically

25:36

teenagers but they're going to

25:38

an adult prison. So

25:40

you know that stayed in my mind all the

25:43

time, like how are they going to survive in

25:45

prison? A date was

25:47

set for the trial. Ron

25:49

met with the prosecutor, a

25:51

man named Jonathan Shoup, to prepare

25:54

to testify. The

25:56

three other witnesses were there too, as

25:58

well as Detective Donald Kincaid. And

26:01

Donald Kincaid was right there in

26:03

the state's attorney's prosecutor's

26:05

office. And he

26:07

was there to monitor, to supervise, to

26:09

make sure our word

26:12

or the statements we gave him

26:14

coincide with what the prosecutor wanted

26:16

us to say. So

26:19

as we're rehearsing, and that's all it was, it

26:21

was scripted. And the

26:23

prosecutor is telling us, okay, this is what

26:25

happened. And I couldn't even really say it

26:27

because these are all lies. So I'm stumbling,

26:30

I can't get my word together

26:32

because you want me to lie. And

26:35

eventually I sat down and the

26:38

other three witnesses, they got up, they knocked

26:40

it out. They had everything. Ron

26:43

remembers Jonathan Shoop praising the three

26:45

other witnesses. But

26:48

he was confused because he

26:50

suspected two of them hadn't even

26:52

seen the shooting. So

26:55

when Donald Kincaid left the room, that's

26:58

when I approached Jonathan Shoop and said, you

27:00

know what? And I had to be careful

27:02

on how I phrased my words. I said, you know what, Mr.

27:05

Shoop, the stuff you're

27:08

all saying in this room, it really didn't go this way.

27:10

It didn't really go this way. I couldn't

27:12

come out and tell him, like, hey, Donald

27:14

Kincaid is lying. So I told

27:16

him, like, hey, you know, it really didn't go this

27:18

way. That's when he said, okay, just go over there

27:20

and sit like no big deal. Ron

27:23

didn't really know what else to do. You

27:26

know, if you don't approach, you know, my

27:28

frame of mind back then, these are two

27:30

white men and they're, you know, one is

27:32

an attorney and the other one is a

27:34

detective. The

27:36

day of the trial, Ron says he wanted to

27:38

get up on the stand and tell the truth. He

27:41

says he'd been told to be the first witness

27:43

to testify. But

27:45

when he got there, he realized he would

27:47

actually be the last. The

27:49

three other witnesses had already testified. Ron

27:53

says he felt a little thrown off by that and

27:55

that when he got up on the witness stand, he

27:58

remembers it already felt like a done deal. The

28:01

jury seemed tired and unfocused.

28:05

So in the end, Ron told

28:07

the same story the witnesses before

28:09

him had. At

28:12

one point, a defense attorney brought up

28:14

the fact that Ron's testimony went

28:16

against a written statement he'd given on November

28:19

18th, the day of the murder, that

28:21

only one person had attacked a wit.

28:25

But it didn't matter. After

28:28

three hours of deliberation, the

28:30

jury found Alfred Chestnut, Ransom

28:32

Watkins, and Andrew Stewart guilty.

28:36

They were sentenced to life in prison. What'd

28:40

you think? I'm like,

28:43

oh, this is the cause of me. I'm

28:47

sending these guys to prison. But at the

28:49

same time, I've been set up,

28:51

framed, to frame these

28:54

guys to send them to prison.

28:56

So you're feeling guilty. You know,

28:58

for one, you lose a good

29:00

friend. And

29:04

at the same time, you send in three other

29:06

black kids to prison for the rest of their

29:08

lives. Something

29:10

else had happened at the trial that Ron

29:13

couldn't stop thinking about. As

29:15

Detective Kincaid had walked him through the hall of

29:17

the courthouse right before testifying, someone

29:20

he knew from around the neighborhood came up to

29:22

them. His name

29:25

was Michael Willis. He was 18. He

29:29

asked Ron if he was going to testify. And

29:31

then, according to Ron, Michael

29:34

Willis looked at Detective Kincaid, and

29:37

Detective Kincaid winked at him. Tell

29:40

me a little bit about who he was. He

29:44

was well-known in the neighborhood, but

29:46

more so well-known just being no

29:49

good. Like someone who's always starting

29:51

trouble, someone who hangs out with

29:53

a group of guys who bully and start

29:55

trouble with, you know, younger kids

29:58

and all that stuff. And

30:01

just had a no good reputation. Ron

30:05

had had another odd encounter with Michael Willis

30:07

a few days after Dewitt was shot. He'd

30:11

seen Michael outside his school and Michael had

30:13

called out to him. Using

30:15

the nickname, people called Ron and his twin

30:17

brother. He said, Ron, Don, if

30:19

anyone try and take your jacket, just

30:22

let me know I'll take care of them for you.

30:24

And I'm looking at him like, what are you talking

30:26

about? Ron thought it was

30:28

strange. He didn't really know Michael Willis

30:30

that well. And it seemed

30:32

like he was referencing Dewitt's Georgetown starter

30:35

jacket. But

30:37

Ron says he hadn't really told anyone that

30:39

he'd been with Dewitt when he was killed.

30:42

And I never made it, it took

30:44

me a while to make the connection. I'm like, why would he tell me

30:46

this? And how would he know? Ron

30:50

says that back on the night,

30:52

Detective Kincaid was showing him Polaroids

30:54

in the interrogation room, saying,

30:56

nope, keep going. Michael

30:59

Willis's photo had been in the sack. But

31:02

Ron says he didn't think anything of it

31:04

at the time. During

31:07

the trial, Michael Willis's name briefly

31:09

came up when a school security

31:11

guard testified that he'd seen Michael on

31:14

school grounds the day Dewitt was shot.

31:18

In the months after the trial, Ron

31:20

thought more and more about Michael Willis.

31:24

He'd sometimes see him wearing a Georgetown

31:26

starter jacket. And

31:29

Ron says he couldn't stop thinking about what

31:31

he'd said on the witness stand. But

31:34

he didn't think there was anyone he could go to

31:36

at this point. Who could

31:38

I tell, Secret Service? Write

31:41

a letter to Baghdad Ronald

31:43

Reagan? Like, who, if you

31:45

can't trust a detective and

31:47

you can't trust a

31:50

prosecutor, an assistant state's

31:52

attorney, who can you trust? For

31:56

the rest of the school year, Ron didn't

31:58

return to the hallway where the happened

32:01

until the day of his junior high graduation.

32:04

He walked through the hall and said a

32:07

little prayer for DeWitt. Ron

32:11

started high school but he

32:13

struggled to stay focused in class. I

32:15

realized when I would take quizzes or

32:18

tests my

32:20

mind would wander off and I'd

32:22

get stuck into the death of

32:25

my brother DeWitt, the whole trial,

32:28

so you know you can get overwhelmed. So I'd

32:30

learn how to just block it all off. Always

32:32

stayed on my mind but I learned how to

32:34

block it out. Ron

32:37

joined the football track and wrestling teams

32:39

in school and eventually

32:41

went to Coppin State University in

32:43

Baltimore. He majored in

32:45

psychology and became a counselor. He

32:48

got married and had two kids. He

32:51

got divorced. He

32:53

often had jobs working with kids who

32:55

had learning difficulties or behavioral issues. He

32:59

still lived in Baltimore and kept in

33:01

touch with people from his childhood. And

33:05

then in 2002 he heard

33:07

Michael Willis had been shot and killed.

33:14

We'll be right back. This

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only on Peacock. For

34:34

decades, Alfred Chestnut, Ransom

34:36

Watkins, and Andrew Stewart maintain their

34:39

innocence in prison. Alfred

34:41

Chestnut spent a lot of time trying to

34:43

get a hold of the police reports about

34:45

DeWitt Duckett's murder. During

34:48

the trial, the prosecutor kept some

34:51

of the reports from the defense

34:53

attorneys. But 34

34:55

years into their life sentences in

34:57

2018, through

34:59

a public information request, Alfred

35:02

finally got them. He

35:05

sent them to the state's attorney's office, where

35:07

they were reviewed by Lauren Lipscomb, who

35:10

leads the Conviction Integrity Unit. And

35:13

reviewing those police

35:15

records, what struck

35:17

me was that there

35:19

was another person that had been

35:22

identified by several witnesses in

35:24

the police records. A person

35:26

is like another suspect?

35:30

Yes. The suspect

35:32

was Michael Willis, who

35:34

had died in the years since DeWitt's

35:36

death. So for

35:38

the first time, you were reading

35:40

that there had

35:43

at one time not been

35:46

such a clear-cut answer to who had

35:48

done this. Right. In

35:52

the reports, Lauren read

35:54

that one young woman the police

35:57

had interviewed after DeWitt's murder said

35:59

that she heard a Michael Willis had been at the

36:01

school that day and that he quote had

36:03

a gun and threw the gun down

36:05

and ran away with some other boys. Someone

36:09

else told the police they heard that

36:11

Willis took the Georgetown jacket and wore

36:13

the jacket to the skating rink at

36:15

Shake and Bake. But

36:18

Lauren couldn't find anything to show

36:20

the police had followed the leads

36:22

about Michael Willis. And

36:24

that presented a conflict that

36:27

was really glaring and that

36:30

is really what caused me to

36:32

initiate a full-blown investigation into

36:34

this case. Lauren

36:38

Lipscomb had also read through the trial

36:40

transcripts. One of the

36:42

things that I noticed about the the

36:45

testimony of the four kids

36:48

was that it seemed that it

36:51

was very similar, that

36:53

their testimonies were similar

36:55

to each other. And

36:57

it struck me that they didn't

36:59

seem to be able to answer

37:01

any detailed questions. Lauren

37:04

started reaching out to the witnesses. Ron

37:08

Bishop hadn't heard anything about the case

37:10

in years but always thought

37:13

about it. Did I get a

37:15

letter from the state's attorney's office? No

37:17

reason that it says Alfred Chestnut at

37:19

all. And you know

37:21

they want to see me immediately and you

37:23

know they want to reinvestigate this case so

37:26

they need my input so they want to

37:28

schedule an interview. So you

37:30

know I just you know for a few

37:32

days I didn't respond and then

37:34

eventually I did. And I you know

37:36

I kind of prepared myself. I'm like

37:38

I don't know what I'm getting into.

37:40

Just might be a trap because

37:43

my experience as a 14-year-old it was

37:45

so horrendous. Ron didn't

37:48

know exactly why Lauren was reinvestigating the

37:50

case. He didn't know why

37:52

she wanted to see him. So at

37:54

first he didn't reply. I think

37:57

that our contact was really jarring for

37:59

him. And I

38:01

find this in most of the investigations that

38:03

we undertake. He

38:06

was very concerned about

38:09

being in touch with the state. We are

38:11

the state's attorney's office, and so that we're

38:14

a law enforcement agency, and so

38:16

there's a certain amount of anxiety

38:19

that a lot of people have in

38:22

talking to our office. He

38:24

worried that he would get in trouble for lying on the

38:26

stand 35 years earlier. So

38:28

I prepared myself. I said, well, either, whatever

38:32

I have to say, I'm gonna be

38:35

honest. And

38:37

if I have to go to jail over this, I

38:40

have to go to jail because those

38:42

guys should never been in prison. Ron

38:47

told Lauren everything. He

38:50

told her that only one person had attacked

38:52

DeWitt, not three. He

38:54

said he lied in court. He said

38:56

he felt threatened and pushed to

38:59

identify Alfred Chestnut, Ransom Watkins,

39:01

and Andrew Stewart. In

39:04

his describing that to us, what was

39:06

striking was that he

39:09

didn't seem to really appreciate

39:12

the gravity of that. It

39:16

seemed as though, from what he described,

39:18

it seemed as though the police

39:21

and the prosecutor told

39:23

him that this

39:26

is the way it's done. We

39:29

tell you what to say when

39:31

you take the stand, and we tell you

39:33

how to testify on the stand, and

39:36

you will get in trouble if you don't do

39:38

it this way. What

39:41

did you think when you heard this? I mean, as a

39:43

prosecutor yourself, what did you

39:45

think? Anger

39:49

actually comes to mind. It

39:52

was a foreign set of events

39:56

from my own experience being

39:58

a prosecutor. And so

40:01

I would even say a little bit

40:03

of incredulousness that that

40:06

this actually happened because I am

40:08

cognizant of the

40:10

fact that the case occurred about 36 years

40:12

prior and So

40:15

I there was a certain amount of incredulousness

40:17

of just over, you know,

40:20

was this how things were done? 36

40:24

years ago. This is completely unacceptable So

40:28

those are the kinds of things that were going through my mind Lauren

40:33

and Ron visited the hallway where the shooting

40:35

happened Ron hadn't

40:37

been back since the day of his junior

40:39

high graduation Ron

40:42

told us it was strange and hard

40:44

to relive things But also

40:46

that the whole thing made him feel hopeful If

40:50

someone like Lauren was looking this deeply into

40:52

the case He thought maybe

40:54

it meant that Alfred Ransom and Andrew would

40:56

be able to come home soon By

41:00

the time he was done telling us,

41:02

you know giving us information and answering

41:05

our questions He

41:08

had cried a bit and

41:13

ultimately was very thankful for

41:15

and that actually struck

41:17

me was that he thanked us for

41:20

for Persisting and bringing

41:22

him in so that he

41:24

could in fact get this off of his

41:27

chest It was almost like a cathartic moment

41:29

or something For him. He

41:32

was very sorry about just

41:36

Everything it seemed as though he would

41:38

have been carrying around a lot of guilt and

41:40

what Struck

41:42

us was that at some

41:45

point during this interview when we said

41:47

well who shot the victim Do you know

41:49

who shot the victim and he said yes

41:51

Michael Willis? And

41:54

and the part of you that thought you

41:56

know, well if this did happen, were

41:58

you thinking we've got a big problem them here.

42:01

Absolutely. It

42:04

became a full-blown emergency

42:07

to get the rest

42:09

of these interviews done

42:12

to complete our investigation. It

42:15

was a full-blown

42:18

emergency, yes. Lauren

42:21

was able to track down the three other witnesses,

42:24

the boy who had been with DeWitt and

42:26

Ron in the hallway and the two other

42:28

classmates who Ron suspected hadn't even seen the

42:30

shooting. They all

42:32

said the same thing, that they

42:34

were told what to say, they

42:37

were told to get with the

42:39

program and

42:42

were threatened that, you know, if they weren't gonna say

42:44

what they were supposed to, you know, that they would

42:46

be in trouble, if they didn't say exactly what they

42:48

were told to say. They all

42:51

talked about that and

42:53

none of them have been in touch

42:55

with each other since school.

42:58

Lauren Lipscomb decided she was gonna do

43:01

everything in her power to get Alfred,

43:03

Ransom and Andrew out of prison

43:05

by Thanksgiving 2019, exactly 36 years since

43:07

their arrest. She began working on a

43:14

report to submit to Marilyn Mosby, the

43:16

state's attorney at the time in Baltimore, and

43:20

then she submitted it. About

43:23

a week later I got

43:25

notice that we were going to agree

43:28

to release. Six

43:30

days before Thanksgiving, born

43:32

and state attorney Marilyn Mosby visited

43:35

Alfred, Ransom and Andrew in prison

43:38

to let them know that they'd be going home. I

43:41

would say that each

43:44

of them shared a similar

43:48

reaction which was sort

43:50

of a look of disbelief. It

43:53

was almost like a

43:55

surreal look of

43:57

disbelief. Three

44:00

days later, the three of them were brought to

44:02

a Baltimore courthouse. It

44:04

was the first time Alfred and Ransom

44:06

had seen each other in almost 25 years. And

44:11

then the judge began the proceedings

44:13

to send the three men home. What

44:16

was the reaction in the courtroom? You

44:19

could hear a pin drop. It's

44:22

very quiet. While I read through

44:24

the highlights of the investigation

44:26

and the court,

44:29

the judge was

44:32

clearly shocked by what

44:35

he heard. And let

44:38

the courtroom know and apologized

44:40

to Mr. Stewart, Mr. Watkins,

44:42

and Mr. Chestnut. I

44:46

mean, is it cases like this where you think to

44:48

yourself, thank God he wrote in? Thank

44:53

God I read that letter.

44:57

Yes, I don't know

44:59

that I can really fully wrap my

45:01

head around how

45:04

significant of a horror

45:07

story that is for everyone

45:09

involved to include the victim's

45:11

family. Who did not get

45:14

justice served for everybody

45:16

involved. Mr. Bishop,

45:18

our other witnesses, Mr.

45:20

Chestnut, Mr. Watkins, Mr. Stewart,

45:23

and for the victim's family. Justice

45:25

was not served in this case. How

45:29

did this whole thing happen? I

45:32

mean, what

45:34

failed? It really

45:36

is impossible years later. It

45:40

is impossible to definitively

45:44

assign blame to any particular

45:47

person. It's not

45:49

just one person. It's not one police officer.

45:51

It's not one police detective. It's

45:54

not even one prosecutor because we

45:56

have other prosecutors. We've got

45:58

team captains. We've got super. who

46:00

are reviewing the material that's

46:02

going to the grand jury. And

46:05

so you've got multiple eyes along

46:07

the way. And so

46:10

what becomes critical is really going kind

46:12

of back to looking

46:14

at the police reports and wondering why

46:17

did they not investigate

46:19

the Michael Willis identification

46:22

that had been made by

46:24

several people? Why

46:27

does that not appear to have

46:29

been investigated fully? That

46:31

was not tracked down. That was not followed for

46:34

whatever reason. Do

46:37

you understand why Ron

46:39

did what he did? I

46:43

do. What we

46:45

know now about the psychology and

46:47

the brain science as

46:49

to just human brain development is

46:52

such that I

46:55

can only imagine that as a

46:57

teenager being – having

47:00

multiple meetings with adults, and

47:04

he to a certain extent is trusting what

47:08

the detectives are saying, what the prosecutor is

47:10

saying. He doesn't want to get into any

47:12

trouble. And if they're telling him this is

47:14

what you're supposed to do, he,

47:17

I believe in good faith, is

47:20

trusting what they say, that yes,

47:22

he is supposed to say what they tell him

47:24

to say. That's the way it's done in court.

47:33

In March 2020, the state of

47:35

Maryland decided to award Alfred, Ransom,

47:38

and Andrew $2.9 million each. And

47:42

in August that year, the three men

47:44

filed a lawsuit against the Baltimore Police

47:46

Department, specifically naming

47:48

Detective Donald Kincaid. In

47:52

the lawsuit, their attorneys write, quote,

48:00

more years stemming from a

48:02

wrongful conviction than any other case

48:05

in American history. Last

48:08

year, the city of Baltimore approved

48:11

a $48 million settlement to Alfred

48:13

Ransom and Andrew. The

48:16

chief legal counsel for the Baltimore Police Department

48:18

said that the number could have been even

48:20

higher than that. These

48:24

are men who went to jail as teens and

48:26

came out as young grandfathers. We

48:31

reached out to the Baltimore Police Department and

48:34

to Detective King Cade, who's now retired,

48:37

and haven't heard back. In

48:41

2021, reporter Jennifer Gonerman

48:43

wrote a story about Ron for

48:46

the New Yorker. She

48:48

met with Alfred Ransom and Andrew to interview

48:50

them, and beforehand asked

48:53

Ron if there was anything he wanted her

48:55

to pass along. He

48:57

wrote several paragraphs. And

48:59

what I told him was, you know,

49:01

I'm sorry this happened. I

49:05

remember them when we were kids and,

49:08

you know, I talked about Andrew. He and

49:10

I were, you know, racing each other and

49:12

pushing me on the swing. Ron

49:16

wrote, knowing who you guys

49:18

were made it so difficult to be on the

49:21

witness stand, especially knowing

49:23

you were all innocent. And

49:25

I did say, well, you know, if one

49:29

day if you all want to, I can sit

49:31

down with you all and, you know, apologize in

49:33

person. Jennifer

49:35

Gonerman shared what Ron wrote with

49:38

Alfred Ransom and Andrew. After

49:40

Ransom said, for

49:43

me, that's everything. Sometimes

49:45

in life, that's all you want. You

49:47

just want people to recognize that, man,

49:50

I messed up. And

49:52

for that, I apologize. Thank

49:54

you. Criminal

50:08

is created by Lauren Spore and me.

50:11

Nadia Wilson is our senior producer. Katie

50:14

Bishop is our supervising producer. Our

50:17

producers are Susanna Roberson, Jackie

50:19

Sajiko, Lily Clark, Lena Sillison, and

50:21

Gabrielle Burbé. Our

50:24

show is mixed and engineered by Veronica

50:26

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50:28

and Alexander make original illustrations for each

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Plus. Once you sign up,

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50:57

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50:59

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51:25

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51:29

Discover more great shows at

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51:33

Phoebe Judge. This is Criminal.