Episode Transcript
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Now,
1:13
here's the show.
1:18
Her sons told me she was born to sing. She
1:20
was born to perform. There was always music
1:23
in the house. They might not have often
1:25
had food or, you know,
1:27
heating, but there was always music
1:29
playing.
1:30
Writer Jeff Mish. They
1:32
recalled she would take a speaker
1:35
and run it outside, and
1:37
she would perform as Aretha, and everyone in the
1:39
neighbourhood would come and gather around
1:42
the house and watch her perform. It was like going to
1:44
a local Aretha Franklin concert.
1:46
And they said that she was her happiest
1:50
when she was singing, no matter what was going on
1:52
in her personal life, in her private
1:55
life. It seemed that whenever she
1:57
was singing, she just seemed happy.
2:01
Mary Jane Jones was a member of a church gospel
2:04
choir called The Great Gate in
2:06
her hometown of West Petersburg, Virginia.
2:08
And they would tour around
2:11
America performing in churches
2:14
all across the country.
2:16
In 1969, Mary Jones was 27 years
2:19
old. She
2:21
was a single mother and she had three
2:24
young children at home. And
2:26
she sang at church but she also
2:29
had a secret double life performing
2:31
in local nightclubs to
2:34
earn some extra money.
2:37
When Motown music emerged,
2:39
it wasn't accepted by the church.
2:41
They thought it was sinful. Some
2:44
of the lyrics were a bit too risque. So
2:47
it wasn't...she would have to perform
2:50
under a different name. She performed under
2:52
Vicki Jones.
2:54
And these clubs were thought to be non-church
2:56
going places. Yes,
2:59
houses of sin, drinking, dancing,
3:02
sometimes violence. You
3:05
wouldn't want to be caught there by
3:08
other members of the parish.
3:11
Mary Jones wore costumes and a wig
3:14
so no one would recognize her. She
3:16
was paid $10 a night. And
3:19
what was she like as a singer? I mean, was it clear
3:22
that this woman had great talent?
3:25
It was clear to everyone who heard her
3:28
sing in church and in the clubs
3:30
that she had incredible talent.
3:34
And what people noticed most of all is
3:36
that Mary Jones sounded just like
3:38
Aretha Franklin. She'd modeled
3:41
her voice on Aretha. She would listen to
3:43
the Aretha's records. She
3:46
taught herself to sing by listening to Aretha.
3:50
So she was so convincing
3:52
as Aretha, she would get mistaken
3:55
for the real Queen of Soul.
3:59
Franklin was a role model for
4:02
so many women in
4:04
that culture because she'd made it. She
4:06
was scouted in a church.
4:09
She'd been spotted singing gospel
4:12
and had gone on to become an incredible success,
4:14
you know, gold, platinum
4:17
records, Grammys. She
4:20
had all the trappings of success, the
4:22
limousines, the fancy frocks.
4:26
She was a superstar on
4:29
the front cover of all the magazines.
4:29
And we know
4:32
that Mary Jones would
4:34
subscribe to Jet Magazine, which
4:36
was the huge magazine. Back
4:38
then, a handbag sized magazine
4:41
and Aretha was often on the cover.
4:43
And I think Mary Jones
4:46
aspired to be just like
4:48
Aretha.
4:49
Mary Jones would often perform in Motown
4:52
tribute acts, performing Aretha
4:54
Franklin songs. She
4:56
was doing this one night in January 1969 at
5:00
a club called The Pink Garter in
5:02
Richmond, Virginia.
5:04
She was backed by the house band, The
5:06
Rivernats. So she's in there
5:08
doing her show.
5:11
She's banging out respect.
5:13
Everyone's going crazy. And
5:16
there's another impersonator
5:18
on the bill that night. So it's not just Aretha
5:21
Franklin. There's another impersonator who
5:23
is doing James Brown. And
5:26
this guy is Lavelle Hardy. He's
5:28
a 24 year old hairdresser
5:31
from New York. And when
5:33
he's not cutting hair, he's performing as
5:35
James Brown across the country. He
5:37
takes one look
5:39
at Mary Jones and sees
5:43
those dollar signs. He thinks she's
5:45
incredible. And he
5:47
was earning a lot more money than Mary
5:50
Jones. She was earning 200 a night. She was
5:52
probably earning 10 bucks.
5:54
And so
5:56
he thought he had an idea.
5:58
I'm going to take. Mary
6:01
Jones on the road, make some money.
6:04
Take her on the road as Mary Jones? Well,
6:07
he had a better idea than that. He thought he would take
6:09
her on the road and tell everyone
6:11
that she was the real Aretha.
6:14
I'm Phoebe Judge. This is Criminal.
6:25
What did she think of this idea? She
6:28
didn't know. So,
6:33
Hardy tricked
6:36
Mary Jones. He told her that he
6:38
was booking the opening act for the
6:41
real Aretha Franklin and he
6:43
promised her $1,000 for six shows in Florida. She'd
6:46
never been paid that amount
6:48
of money in her life. She'd never seen that amount
6:51
of money in her life. So,
6:53
she went for it. She
6:56
even had to borrow the bus fare.
6:59
She decided to take a risk and
7:01
leave her sons at home and go and perform
7:03
for these six shows and open for the real
7:05
Aretha. That
7:08
was how Hardy got her on board.
7:11
I mean, this must have seemed... Well, it
7:14
was the first time she was, I think, travelling so
7:16
far away from home. But this must have seemed like
7:18
a very exciting opportunity.
7:20
She must have been thrilled. And
7:23
the money would have seemed to her like
7:25
it was the answer to all of her problems, the
7:27
answer to all of her prayers.
7:30
As soon as Mary Jones arrived in Florida, Lavelle
7:33
Hardy told her the truth, that
7:35
she was not going to be opening for Aretha Franklin.
7:39
She was going to be performing as Aretha
7:41
Franklin. Did they look
7:43
similar? They
7:46
looked similar enough. But what you've
7:48
got to remember is that this is 1969. Not
7:51
everyone had televisions. You
7:53
only recognise your favourite
7:56
performer by their voice. Or if you'd
7:58
gone to see them live.
7:59
So many people would have
8:02
listened to Aretha Franklin and only seen her
8:04
in pictures in Jet Magazine.
8:07
And this wasn't just done, you know,
8:11
here in the United States. I mean, this was at
8:13
that time a rather common practice of passing
8:16
off impersonators as the real
8:18
thing, because of
8:21
this lack of television, lack of our ability
8:23
to look up what this person actually
8:25
looked like.
8:27
There was a huge wave of
8:29
impersonators at this time.
8:32
It was this kind of magical moment just before
8:34
everyone got television sets in their front rooms,
8:37
where there were dozens of
8:40
fake acts on the road at any given time. You
8:42
could go and see the fake temptations, for
8:44
example. No
8:47
one really knew what their heroes looked like.
8:49
So, for example, back in 1955,
8:53
James Brown and Little Richard
8:56
had the same agent. And sometimes
8:58
when Little Richard was double booked, they'd make
9:00
James Brown fill in. They were
9:02
interchangeable, except
9:05
for one night in Alabama when the crowd
9:07
figured it out. And James
9:10
Brown reportedly had to do a lot
9:13
of backflips to win them over.
9:16
When the Val Hardy arrived in Florida, he
9:19
started calling local promoters. He
9:22
told them that Walritha Franklin normally got
9:24
paid $20,000 a night. She
9:27
was planning on doing a run of shows for $7,000
9:29
a night in cash. Um,
9:33
and these people fell for it. Jeff
9:37
Maish says that one promoter even
9:39
offered to provide a detective for security
9:42
and offered a car to use.
9:44
But there is a problem.
9:47
Mary Jones refused to go along with the
9:49
Val Hardy's plan.
9:51
And that caused a real problem, because
9:53
Hardy told her that if she didn't cooperate,
9:56
she'd be in a lot of trouble. And then he threatened
9:59
to throw her in the back.
9:59
the bay and whether
10:02
he knew it or not that was her greatest fear
10:04
was being thrown into water.
10:07
She couldn't swim and she had this terrible fear of drowning.
10:12
Reportedly he said to her, your body
10:14
can be easily disposed of in
10:16
the water.
10:18
And this must have been a shock to her because
10:21
she thought that she was being brought to perform
10:23
and make money and
10:26
he had never shown himself to be angry
10:28
or violent to her before or threatening.
10:33
I think his entire personality changed
10:35
as soon as they got to Florida and he
10:37
became incredibly threatening
10:40
and he told her very firmly,
10:43
you are Aretha Franklin.
10:48
Was she dressed up as Aretha
10:50
Franklin? What did they do to her appearance?
10:53
So Lavelle Hardy brought with him this yellow
10:56
floor length gown. Very
10:59
typical of something that the real Aretha might
11:02
have worn but
11:03
I guess it was a lot cheaper. And
11:06
he brought a wig and he'd
11:08
get her in really heavy stage makeup.
11:11
And from a
11:13
distance, in
11:17
a nightclub, from quite
11:19
far away, you would
11:21
be convinced it was the real Aretha.
11:25
And her voice was that good. It
11:27
was incredible. She blew
11:30
the roof off,
11:31
apparently. We'll be
11:33
right back.
11:53
This year, Pride Month was dominated by one
11:55
song, Padam Padam by Kylie
11:57
Minogue. I'm switched on pop producer and
12:00
this week we're doing a deep dive into Peramparam and
12:03
its growing status as a gay anthem, leading
12:06
us to the question, what makes a gay
12:08
anthem? Is it the diva at its center
12:11
or is it something more? This episode of Switched on
12:13
Pop, I talk to multiple experts and friends to
12:15
understand how songs like these tend
12:18
to connect with our community. You can find Switched on
12:20
Pop anywhere you get your podcasts.
12:24
Lavelle Hardy booked another show for Mary Jones,
12:27
Azaritha Franklin.
12:28
People were really pleased. No
12:30
one really suspected a thing. In
12:35
fact, Lavelle Hardy thought,
12:37
well, this is going so well, we should
12:39
probably think about booking some bigger gigs.
12:43
What would happen when the show was over at
12:45
night? Well, as soon as the show
12:48
was over, Lavelle Hardy would spirit
12:51
Mary away. He didn't want anyone to get
12:53
a close-up look at her. You
12:56
know, he would bundle her into a car and
12:58
drive her to a cheap motel, lock
13:00
the door. And
13:03
as she told it, he'd feed her a couple
13:05
of hamburgers and
13:07
they would get ready for the next gig.
13:10
So he wasn't paying her after every show?
13:14
He'd promised to pay her, but at
13:16
the end. So she didn't
13:18
have any cash. And
13:22
she had no way to get home. Remember,
13:24
she'd borrowed the bus fare to get down there. So
13:28
she wouldn't have been able to
13:31
get the bus home if she tried, she didn't have
13:33
the money. And you've
13:36
got to remember, this was an incredibly hostile time.
13:40
In 1969, in the South, this
13:44
would not be the place for a
13:47
young African-American woman to be
13:49
out on her own looking for help.
13:53
Lavelle
13:53
Hardy booked a show at the High Hat Club
13:56
in Fort Myers, a 1,400-seat venue.
14:00
Tickets sold for $5.50. They
14:03
sold out. So, uh,
14:06
this was... things were getting out of control. Uh,
14:09
this was, uh... this was a bigger crowd. I
14:13
wonder what it must have been like for...
14:18
for Mary Jones to... to
14:20
be getting these standing ovations and to be
14:22
getting people just on their feet
14:25
who loved her so much.
14:27
And it was for her voice, but they didn't think
14:29
that they were... they thought
14:31
that they were applauding for someone else.
14:33
It must have been very conflicting,
14:36
because all this time she dreamed
14:39
of leading the life that Aretha
14:41
Franklin was leading, performing
14:44
to sell out crowds, wearing these incredible
14:46
dresses, and getting
14:48
standing ovations. And it
14:51
must have been very hard to achieve
14:53
all that, but know that really you
14:55
were masquerading as someone else, that
14:57
you didn't deserve it. And I
15:00
think by then she realised that she
15:02
wanted to be herself. She wanted
15:04
to perform as Mary
15:07
Jones or Vicki Jones, as she called
15:09
herself. She wanted to have success
15:12
on her own terms.
15:19
And was he more confident
15:22
about booking
15:22
larger audiences because the reactions
15:25
had been so great from the previous
15:28
audiences, the smaller crowds had loved her?
15:30
Yeah, the smaller crowds had fallen for
15:32
it, and he'd earned a lot
15:34
of money, and I think he got greedy
15:37
and he wanted a big score. And
15:40
Lavelle Hardy had booked the Southeastern
15:43
Livestock Pavilion, which is a huge
15:46
venue, 4,200 seats, normally reserved
15:48
for cattle shows, cattle
15:51
auctions. And
15:54
this was going to be a big event. The promoters
15:57
had printed up Aretha Franklin posters.
16:01
They'd stuck the posters up all over town. DJs
16:04
were talking about it in the local area. And
16:08
it was going to be probably one of the biggest shows
16:11
of the year.
16:13
When
16:13
word started to spread about Aretha Franklin's
16:16
show in Ocala, someone
16:18
else found out about it.
16:20
The real Aretha Franklin. Aretha
16:25
Franklin had discovered that
16:28
there was something going on in the south. She'd taken
16:30
a trip down to Miami and
16:34
heard that she was performing.
16:36
And of course she knew she wasn't. She
16:38
was actually on vacation. So her
16:41
attorneys, Aretha Franklin's attorneys,
16:44
started making calls and
16:46
got through to the local prosecutor
16:50
nearby. A guy called
16:52
Gus Musley,
16:54
who was a bit of a showman himself. And
16:57
he was
16:59
told that
17:01
the shows were fake. This was a fake Aretha Franklin.
17:05
And this was news to Musley because he had two tickets to
17:07
the show.
17:09
I mean, I guess that's the problem, right? If you're
17:12
playing in little clubs, it's easier to pass
17:14
off that you're Aretha Franklin. But if you're booking
17:17
4,000-seat theaters,
17:21
someone's going to say, wait a second. Who
17:24
is it? I mean, that's the risk. That's
17:27
the things with scams though, isn't it? They always get
17:29
out of control. That's
17:32
how we come to hear about them. Scams
17:35
usually start out small and
17:37
you make a little bit of money. And then
17:40
you either take your money and go
17:43
quietly away, or most people get greedy
17:46
and they will do it until they get caught.
17:49
So what happened next?
17:52
Well, then the police got involved and
17:54
two local investigators,
17:57
two local cops, decided to...
20:00
Gus Musley, the prosecutor, calls
20:03
Mary Jones into the courtroom
20:05
and asks her to sing. And
20:07
she does, she performs. And
20:09
everyone's blown away. He
20:12
thought she was, quote, terrific, and
20:15
said she showed a distinctive style
20:17
of her own. And
20:19
what did he decide to do? He let
20:22
her off. He believed her. He
20:25
said, quote,
20:26
it was obvious she was a victim.
20:29
So Lavelle Hardy's, he's still
20:32
in jail. Lavelle Hardy's
20:34
in jail. They find him with $7,000
20:38
on him when he's arrested. His
20:43
profits from the shows. It's quite
20:45
a lot of money in 1969. That's about just
20:47
under $50,000 today. And
20:51
he gave most of that to an attorney, a local
20:53
attorney. And the
20:56
attorney convinced the prosecutor
21:00
to let him go too. But
21:01
he was told to beat it, you know, get
21:03
out of Florida. She
21:06
was still broke at this point. I mean,
21:08
she was still, she might have been let off, but
21:11
she was still kind of stuck.
21:12
She was stuck.
21:15
But there was somebody
21:17
waiting outside the courtroom for her
21:19
that would change her life forever.
21:25
So as
21:25
soon as she leaves the courthouse, there's
21:28
a man waiting for her.
21:31
He's a gentleman called Ray Green. He's
21:35
a Jacksonville entrepreneur
21:37
and a lawyer who'd been following
21:40
her story, because of course it made the newspapers
21:42
fake Aretha Franklin arrested.
21:45
And he
21:47
offered her a contract and he gave her $500 as a cash
21:49
advance because
21:53
he wanted to take her on tour. He wanted to be her
21:55
her agent and advisor.
21:58
He wanted to take her on a. nationwide
22:00
tour because he thought there was so much interest
22:03
in her. This
22:05
must have, I mean, I wonder at this point whether she
22:07
was happy
22:10
about this news or whether all she could
22:13
be at this point was skeptical about another man
22:15
coming in saying, I'm going to make
22:16
you a big star. I
22:18
think Ray Green was incredibly
22:21
impressive. He was a
22:23
millionaire, very successful
22:26
man, self-made. The $500
22:29
cash advance, I think, went some way to prove
22:32
that he was real. And
22:35
he was he was a good guy. I
22:39
think
22:40
his promises seemed realistic.
22:43
He wanted to take her on the road as
22:45
herself.
22:47
He wanted her to perform as
22:50
as Mary Jones.
22:53
And
22:54
life would never be the same again.
23:01
We'll be right back.
23:06
Mary Jones went back to West Petersburg. She
23:09
found out that Duke Ellington
23:11
had heard about her.
23:13
And a few weeks later, she went back to
23:15
Florida for one of his shows.
23:18
Duke Ellington invited her on to stage
23:20
at a show, introduced
23:22
her as the woman who made headlines
23:25
just two weeks earlier. And
23:29
they performed together. She sang Every
23:31
Day I Have the Blues. She
23:34
wore the same yellow evening gown she had
23:36
worn when she was performing as Aretha Franklin
23:39
in Fort Myers. But
23:41
this time she didn't wear a wig.
23:46
Was she accepted as herself?
23:48
I mean, were people disappointed that she wasn't singing
23:50
respect anymore? Or was
23:52
she able to be thought of as her own artist
23:55
finally?
23:58
This was the beginning of what? what
24:00
Duke Ellington had planned
24:02
for her. He told her, you know, you've got to be
24:05
yourself now. And he even offered
24:07
to write some songs specifically
24:09
for her to record.
24:13
She wanted to perform
24:16
as herself now. This was a new
24:18
chapter.
24:20
She felt ready to write her own songs
24:22
and her own music.
24:25
She told the reporter, I want
24:27
to do songs strictly about me, how
24:30
I got started and how I love. Everything
24:34
I write will be based on my life. I
24:36
think people will be interested.
24:41
And did she, I mean, tell me about some of the
24:43
things that happened to her when she started to perform.
24:46
So she went on the road. She flew
24:48
in jets for the first
24:50
time. She performed in
24:52
Chicago and Las Vegas.
24:56
And she gave interviews to the newspapers.
24:59
She said she wanted to be famous, but she
25:01
said, in my own style, I've got my own
25:03
bag. The way I feel is that people
25:06
can buy a wreath for a wreath and they can
25:08
buy Vicki Jane for Vicki Jane.
25:12
Did Aretha Franklin ever
25:14
say anything about her? So
25:17
there was a whole media spectacle
25:20
caused by this. So eventually
25:23
Aretha Franklin
25:24
heard the story and in an interview
25:26
with Jet, she defended her. She
25:28
said that it was Lavelle Hardy who
25:31
ought to be prosecuted, not
25:34
that girl. So she was pro
25:36
Mary
25:37
Jones.
25:44
Mary Jones performing as Vicki Jones
25:47
toured all over the country in
25:49
bigger and bigger venues.
25:52
Well, of course, when she's on these tours, she's
25:54
earning so much money, more money than she's
25:57
ever seen. And she performs
25:59
in all the...
25:59
these awesome locations. But
26:02
of course people really
26:05
only want her to sing Aretha songs
26:08
because that's what made her famous. So
26:12
you know they wanted her to sing Respect.
26:15
She wasn't given time to write
26:17
her own songs or perform as herself.
26:19
People just wanted to see the Aretha act
26:22
and I think
26:24
for a time that was successful
26:28
but it was it was very limiting and I think
26:30
I think Duke Ellington said something like this
26:32
she needs to break out of the Aretha
26:35
thing and she
26:37
just wasn't able to and probably
26:40
nor did she want to because she was earning up
26:43
to fifteen hundred dollars a night doing
26:46
doing Aretha.
26:49
So she just stopped performing?
26:54
Well she she did a year of touring and
26:57
then she went
26:58
back to her hometown to
27:01
do a show there and
27:04
she was eating at a restaurant in West
27:06
Petersburg and
27:08
her two little sons
27:11
ran into the dining room and
27:14
this was an adults only
27:15
restaurant so that
27:17
waiters were trying to grab them but
27:20
it was it was one of these moments where she
27:23
realized that she'd lost sight of
27:25
her role as a mother. Her
27:28
sons had gone back to live with the ex-husband
27:32
who told them that she was never coming back.
27:36
Gregory, her son Gregory told me that
27:38
he couldn't bear to listen to Aretha
27:41
songs on the radio when When Aretha
27:43
songs would come on he'd changed the channel and
27:47
that moment
27:48
with her sons in this restaurant
27:50
was life-changing
27:52
and she realized that she
27:55
she wanted to quit
27:56
and she never performed again.
27:58
She stayed in West Petersburg.
27:59
Petersburg and raised her children.
28:04
In 2018,
28:05
Jeff Maish published his reporting on
28:07
Vicky Jones in the Smithsonian
28:09
Magazine
28:11
in a piece called The Counterfeit
28:13
Queen of Soul. Tell
28:15
me about her sons. What did they have
28:17
to say about their mother? When
28:22
Gregory finally agreed
28:24
to talk about his mother, he
28:27
was so emotional and so happy that someone
28:29
had finally called him
28:32
because he'd obviously been telling this story
28:34
to friends and people over the decades
28:37
and people wouldn't believe
28:39
it. No one
28:41
had spoken to the local cops
28:43
or the prosecutor and told
28:46
this story in full for the first time and he
28:48
was really grateful. This was
28:50
published in the Smithsonian
28:52
Magazine and he went into his
28:54
local bookstore
28:55
and bought up all the
28:57
copies and was showing people,
28:59
I think he showed the person at the cash register his
29:02
picture in the magazine. He was just
29:04
thrilled to have this story told for the
29:06
first time.
29:08
I'm sure and to see your mother
29:11
get the recognition she deserved. I mean,
29:14
I know she had her moment, but to
29:17
see her for her own right, not just the
29:19
Aretha Franklin imposter.
29:20
Yeah,
29:26
her sons told me that she
29:29
wanted to be Aretha so much, but they
29:31
always saw her for who she was. She
29:33
was mum
29:34
and they remember
29:36
her dancing and singing in
29:39
the kitchen, but it wasn't because
29:41
she was doing Aretha, they just loved being around their
29:43
mum.
29:47
What did you
29:49
like about her story? I mean, I just, I
29:51
don't know, what did you learn about this woman through
29:54
talking to all these people? It's
29:59
not the old clean. say that
30:02
if only you could be yourself, life would be
30:04
so much better. Stop trying to be someone
30:06
else. I think it does show
30:08
that
30:09
even
30:10
if you're put into the most
30:13
impossible scenarios, being
30:15
kidnapped, forced to perform,
30:18
if you're honest and true to
30:20
yourself, then good
30:23
things can come out of terrible situations.
30:25
And I think that was true for her.
30:32
In
30:32
March of 1969, Jet
30:35
Magazine reported that
30:37
a woman in Richmond, Virginia was
30:39
doing a brisk business pretending
30:42
to be Vicki Jones.
30:45
I write a lot about imposters,
30:48
and I've noticed this a lot. Whenever
30:51
an impostor is really good, the impostor
30:53
gets their own impostor. It's like a copy
30:55
of a facsimile. And
30:59
as you know about copies of copies, they
31:01
tend to not be very good. So of
31:03
course, after all these
31:05
headlines, there were
31:09
Vicki Jones or Mary Jones impersonators
31:12
on tours around America being
31:14
introduced
31:15
as the faker, either Franklin,
31:17
that everyone's talking about. So
31:20
it's like a weird hole of mirrors,
31:23
isn't
31:24
it? Criminal is
31:27
created by Lauren Spore and me. Nadia
31:29
Wilson is
31:39
our
31:43
senior producer. Katie Bishop is our
31:45
supervising producer. Our
31:47
producers are Susanna Roberson, Jackie
31:50
Sajiko, Lily Clark, Lena Sillison,
31:52
and Megan
31:53
Knane. Our technical director
31:55
is Rob Byers, engineering by
31:57
Russ Henry. Julian Alexander.
32:00
makes original illustrations for each episode
32:02
of Criminal. You can see them at
32:05
thisiscriminal.com. If
32:07
you like the show, tell a friend or leave us
32:09
a review. It means a lot. We're
32:13
on Facebook and Twitter at Criminal Show and
32:15
Instagram at criminal underscore podcast.
32:18
And we're also on YouTube, where you can go
32:21
back and take a listen to some of our favorite
32:23
past episodes. That's at youtube.com
32:26
slash criminal podcast.
32:28
Criminal is recorded in the studios of North
32:31
Carolina Public Radio, WUNC.
32:34
We're part of the Vox Media Podcast
32:36
Network.
32:36
Discover more great shows
32:39
at podcast.voxmedia.com. I'm
32:42
Phoebe Judge.
32:43
This is Criminal.
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