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driving. Allstate Fire and Casualty Insurance Company and

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affiliates Northbrook, Illinois. You know the old poem,

1:03

April Showers Bring May Birthdays. Okay, maybe that's

1:05

not how it goes, but it is time

1:08

for a Patreon May birthday shout outs. And

1:10

I want to send very

1:13

warm birthday greetings to Aria,

1:15

Carly, Ellie, Anne,

1:17

Rachel, Leah, Emily

1:19

Rose, Helen, Melissa,

1:22

Antoinette, Patty, Laura

1:24

and Kate. I

1:26

hope your day, your month,

1:28

your year is filled with

1:30

joy, laughter and wonderful memories.

1:33

Have a piece of cake for me and happy

1:35

birthday. Stephen

1:48

Watkins showed up to pick his daughter up

1:50

for court ordered visitation just two days before

1:53

Thanksgiving in 2008. The

1:55

following day was a court hearing where he

1:57

hoped to get more parenting time, but that

1:59

hearing... would not happen. What happened

2:01

instead is a matter of debate. I'm

2:04

Charlie and welcome to Crimelines. Welcome

2:14

to Crimelines Another Week, another

2:16

episode. Can you

2:18

believe it's been five years of

2:21

Crimelines? I launched Crimelines

2:23

on May 5th, 2019,

2:26

not sure how I was going to manage

2:28

a weekly show all by myself after

2:31

having a co-host for almost three

2:33

years. It is a

2:35

lot of work. And while I've

2:37

had help here and there and I've

2:39

taken occasional breaks, I'm back to producing

2:42

weekly shows plus bonus content

2:44

for Patreon and Apple subscriptions

2:46

completely by myself. I've

2:49

actually been making Crimelines by myself

2:51

longer than I made my other

2:53

show with a co-host. Now,

2:56

anyone who knows me knows that I'm

2:58

prone to hyperbole, but it's definitely not

3:01

hyperbole to say that this has been

3:03

life-changing. And I

3:05

know that Crimelines is nothing

3:07

without people listening, people

3:09

who are recommending the show to a

3:11

friend or on social media or supporting

3:13

me even directly through Patreon and Apple.

3:16

Plus, those who give me feedback.

3:19

Recently on Facebook, a listener named

3:21

Lee mentioned in a comment that

3:23

my delivery has really improved as

3:25

I've become more comfortable. And I

3:28

appreciate that because that's the thing

3:30

I've really been working on. And

3:32

I've been working on it because of the

3:34

feedback I have gotten about my delivery and

3:37

cadence, and so it's nice to know that

3:39

that work has been noticed. So

3:41

I just want to say thank you to

3:43

everyone because the show does not get to

3:45

five years just because the host didn't quit.

3:47

It's also a celebration for the listeners who

3:49

have shown up all of these weeks and

3:52

weeks and weeks I've been doing episodes and

3:54

allowed this to be my primary job,

3:57

which is why I can create so

3:59

much content. content. So

4:01

with that big thank you to

4:03

everyone, let's go ahead and get

4:05

into today's case. We are

4:07

starting with Stephen Watkins, who was born in

4:10

February of 1976 to Dale and Penny Watkins.

4:14

He grew up in Chandler,

4:16

Illinois, population 600. His upbringing in

4:19

this little town

4:22

was pretty idyllic. He had

4:24

great parents, he had a little sister he

4:26

adored, and lots of friends

4:28

and cousins everywhere. It's

4:31

the type of a life that some people

4:33

dream of, but like a lot of people

4:35

who grew up in a small town, Stephen

4:37

did want to see more of the world.

4:39

So he ended up enlisting in the Coast

4:42

Guard after high school. Around

4:44

the time Stephen was leaving for his service,

4:46

he found out that his girlfriend was pregnant.

4:49

She gave birth to a little girl who

4:51

we will call Emma. There are actually two

4:53

minor children involved in the story, and I'm

4:55

going to be changing both of their names

4:58

for their privacy. While

5:00

Stephen was stationed in Virginia, Emma's

5:02

mom would take her out to

5:04

see him pretty regularly until

5:07

she was about two years old. At

5:09

that point, she realized

5:11

that Stephen could provide Emma with

5:14

more stability than she could, so

5:16

she voluntarily gave him full

5:19

custody. Stephen loved

5:21

being a dad, it was his purpose in

5:23

life, and when he finished with

5:25

the Coast Guard, he moved back home

5:27

so he could raise Emma near family

5:29

in the same environment he grew up

5:31

in. He ended up moving

5:33

so close to his family that his

5:35

house was right behind his parents. As

5:38

a single dad, that was a

5:40

huge help to have them nearby.

5:43

Stephen got a job with the

5:45

state working for the Department of

5:47

Health Care and Family Services. He

5:49

was basically answering the phone,

5:51

advising people regarding their child

5:53

support. The job was

5:55

in Springfield, it was a bit of a

5:57

commute, so Stephen's life was basically going to

6:00

work and raising Emma. He

6:02

didn't have much time for anything else. One

6:06

day, several months into his new

6:08

job, Steven noticed a woman walking

6:10

through the parking lot at work.

6:13

She didn't work for the state, but

6:15

the company she did work for shared

6:18

the same parking lot. Steven

6:20

was interested in getting to know her, so

6:22

he started holding back a bit when he

6:24

would get to work to wait for her

6:27

so that he could strike up a conversation

6:29

as they made their way across the parking

6:31

lot. He learned her

6:33

name was Jennifer Webster, but what

6:36

he didn't know was that she

6:38

mentioned him to her family because

6:40

she knew he was interested in her.

6:43

Eventually Steven did ask Jennifer out

6:45

and she said yes. From

6:48

the first date, the relationship was

6:50

full on. There was no slow

6:52

build. Within two weeks of that

6:54

first date, Jennifer brought him to

6:56

church to meet her family. For

6:59

Jennifer's family, this was a big

7:02

deal. They were tight-knit, like Steven's

7:04

family, but according to the

7:06

reporting, they were close to

7:08

the point of almost being

7:10

insular. Jennifer, her parents,

7:12

and her grandparents all lived together,

7:14

and the extended family had

7:17

family dinner together almost every night,

7:19

and they all attended the same

7:21

church. It was

7:23

so hard for an outsider to

7:25

break into that family, according to

7:27

Dateline, that Jennifer's first

7:29

husband didn't last long. He

7:32

found it to be too much of an

7:34

us versus them mentality, and he was a

7:36

them, so the marriage ended. Steven

7:39

would also experience the us versus

7:41

them mentality, but not right away.

7:44

Jennifer seemed charmed by his daughter

7:46

Emma, who was around seven years

7:48

old, and her family was

7:50

very sweet with her. Steven had

7:53

such a wonderful childhood himself with two

7:55

parents and a sibling that he really

7:57

wanted that for Emma, so

7:59

Jennifer being ready to accept him and

8:01

Emma as a package deal really made

8:03

him fall head over heels. Things

8:07

moved quickly. They married within the

8:09

first two months of their relationship,

8:11

which worried both sides of the

8:13

family. Steven's mom thought things were moving

8:16

too fast, but she held her tongue. She

8:18

didn't want to put a cloud over Steven's

8:20

happiness. Jennifer's Uncle Ed, though,

8:22

disapproved enough that he didn't even go to

8:24

the wedding, which, from my

8:27

understanding, was a pretty bold statement in

8:29

this family since they did everything together.

8:33

After the wedding, the two moved into

8:35

a house in Ashland, Illinois. That's

8:37

about 30 minutes from where Steven grew up,

8:39

but it was just down the street from

8:41

where Jennifer had been living with her grandparents

8:43

and her parents. And

8:46

in line with everything in this

8:48

relationship moving fast, Jennifer

8:50

was soon pregnant. This

8:53

pregnancy marked a shift in the

8:55

relationship, according to Steven's family. Though

8:57

everything had moved so fast in

8:59

the relationship that it's hard to

9:01

say that if it was the

9:03

pregnancy that was the root of

9:05

the change or just the

9:07

fact that they were finally getting to know

9:09

each other, and maybe it just wasn't

9:11

working out. The first

9:14

thing Steven told his parents about

9:16

the shift in attitude was

9:18

towards Emma. It wasn't

9:21

necessarily Jennifer at first, but

9:23

her extended family. When

9:25

they had first gotten together, they all

9:28

treated Emma just like any other grandchild.

9:30

But after Jennifer got pregnant and

9:32

was having a biological grandchild, they

9:34

didn't see Emma quite the same

9:36

way. According to

9:38

what Steven's family told Dateline, Emma

9:41

was really upset when someone in

9:43

Jennifer's family told her she wasn't

9:45

really part of the family. Jennifer's

9:49

family was being, according

9:51

to Steven, outright exclusionary,

9:54

and Jennifer was doing the same

9:56

but in smaller ways. She

9:59

would prefer to to be around her family

10:01

rather than with Steven and Emma. And

10:03

Steven first thought that maybe it was

10:05

because of the pregnancy. It

10:08

was Jennifer's first baby and they had

10:10

only been married a few months after

10:13

even less time spent dating and getting

10:15

to know each other. So

10:18

it seemed natural that Jennifer would

10:20

lean heavily on her family for

10:22

support. And Steven

10:24

was pretty confident that they would be

10:26

able to get back on track as

10:28

their own family unit after the baby

10:31

was born. In

10:33

June of 2007, which was 10 months after

10:35

they got married and about a year after

10:37

they started dating, Jennifer and Steven

10:40

had a baby girl who we are gonna

10:42

call Lily. If

10:44

Steven really thought things were going to

10:46

change at this point, he was soon

10:48

proven wrong. More

10:50

than ever, Jennifer just wanted to be

10:52

around her family with her baby, of

10:55

course. Steven would get

10:57

home from work and Jennifer would pack Lily

10:59

up and go down to her parents' house

11:01

for the evening. They would

11:03

do all the normal routine things over there.

11:05

They'd have dinner, give Lily a bath, and

11:07

then Jennifer would come back pretty

11:10

much just in time to put her to bed. Steven

11:13

tried to work with Jennifer on this.

11:15

He would talk to her about prioritizing

11:17

their family over her family of origin,

11:20

but it became clear that just was not going

11:23

to happen. Steven

11:25

told his parents that he thought the

11:27

only way he and Emma would get

11:29

to be in Lily's life in any

11:31

meaningful way was if he divorced Jennifer

11:34

and the court gave him parenting time. Imagine

11:37

where Steven's mind is at this

11:40

point. He wanted more time

11:42

with his child to be a more involved

11:44

parent, and the only path forward that he

11:46

could see to accomplish that

11:49

was a divorce. The

11:51

couple separated with Steven consulting a divorce

11:54

attorney about custody in early 2008. Jennifer

11:57

moved with the baby back to the hospital.

12:00

with her family. In May of

12:02

2008, Steven filed for

12:04

divorce when Lily was 11 months

12:06

old. He could not get

12:08

Jennifer to agree to a regular visitation

12:10

schedule between the two of them, so

12:12

he needed the courts involved. And

12:15

when he filed, he asked for primary

12:17

custody. Jennifer then

12:19

called the Illinois Department of Children

12:22

and Family Services and reported that

12:24

Steven had been sexually abusing his

12:26

daughters. We don't

12:29

know all that was exactly in that

12:31

complaint, nor should we when we're talking

12:33

about a child, but Jennifer's family

12:35

later told the state journal

12:37

register what they witnessed and

12:39

what they were calling sexual

12:41

abuse. I would normally

12:43

never say what happened in any

12:46

detail when there's a surviving victim,

12:48

particularly when it's besides the point of the

12:50

case we're discussing, but I am

12:53

going to say this now because accusations

12:55

can linger even when someone is cleared

12:58

and what they described was not

13:00

abuse. The family

13:02

said that Steven, during diaper changes,

13:05

would tickle Lily above her

13:07

pubic bone, aka her stomach,

13:10

while saying the words, Naked

13:12

Baby Time. In

13:15

court, Steven admitted to doing this

13:17

because why wouldn't he? That's not

13:19

sexual abuse. And

13:22

eventually, the investigation would agree with

13:24

this, but in the meantime, Steven

13:26

was given supervised visits with Lily

13:28

so that they could investigate the claims.

13:32

During the supervised visits, Jennifer would generally

13:34

take the baby over to Steven's

13:36

house for an hour and a

13:38

half, two hours, and Steven complained

13:40

that at these visits, she would

13:42

largely try to keep him and

13:44

Emma from interacting or playing with

13:46

Lily. By the

13:48

end of the summer of 2008, Steven

13:51

had been cleared of the false

13:53

accusations against him and he

13:55

was given court ordered, unsupervised visits

13:57

with Lily. He showed

14:00

up to them as scheduled for every

14:02

single visit and in a show of

14:04

good faith, he would invite Jennifer

14:06

to come along if they were doing something

14:08

special, like when he took the girls to

14:10

the pumpkin patch. He didn't

14:13

want this to be a contentious

14:15

divorce or custody battle, he wanted

14:17

them to have a functional family

14:19

relationship, even if they weren't

14:21

together, because that's what would benefit Lily

14:23

in the long term. And

14:26

according to Steven's family, he may have

14:28

been holding out some hope that Jennifer

14:30

would see how good things could be

14:33

when they were together as a family.

14:36

But while Jennifer would take his olive

14:38

branch when it meant going along with

14:41

Lily on the visit, she never extended

14:43

one of her own. Her

14:45

own divorce attorney would later say that

14:47

Jennifer did not want Steven to see

14:50

Lily at all. She basically

14:52

wanted to move on with her daughter and

14:54

cut ties. Steven,

14:56

however, loved both of his daughters and

14:58

that was not going to happen. He

15:01

kept showing up to his court ordered

15:03

visits and after about a month of

15:05

this new schedule, Jennifer started cancelling. Sometimes

15:09

he would go over there to pick

15:11

Lily up and they wouldn't be home,

15:13

other times Lily was sick and couldn't

15:15

go. On

15:17

Thursday, October 30th, 2008, Steven went

15:19

to pick Lily up as scheduled.

15:21

He was supposed to have her

15:23

two evenings a week and then

15:25

he would have time with her

15:28

every other weekend. When he got

15:30

to the house, he was told that Lily was sick and

15:32

they were at the doctor. Steven

15:34

decided to call the police. An

15:37

officer came out to the house and

15:39

Steven showed him the court order for

15:41

visitation and explained that the family kept

15:43

denying him access to his daughter. So

15:46

the officer knocked on the door while he had

15:49

Steven stay on the other side of the street.

15:52

Jennifer's grandfather, Kenneth Skinner, and her

15:55

father Bob Webster, answered the door

15:57

together. The officer said he was called

15:59

to the house. out there because they

16:01

had denied visitation to the father,

16:03

and then both men started yelling.

16:06

Not at the officer, but they were

16:08

shouting across the street at Steven. The

16:11

officer noted that Steven did not

16:14

respond at all. The

16:16

men finally told the officer that Lily

16:18

had been sick and she was at

16:20

the doctor. And that meant there

16:22

really wasn't anything more the police could

16:24

do at that point, and I know

16:26

that's really frustrating for people. When

16:28

you have a court order, it should be

16:30

enforceable. The police will show up and

16:33

try to mediate the situation, but without

16:35

a warrant, they can't enter the home

16:37

and just get the child. And even

16:39

if they could, is that really in

16:41

the child's best interest to be removed

16:43

from the home by force? Basically,

16:46

Steven was told this was a matter for

16:49

the family court. And Steven's

16:51

plan was to continue to show up for

16:53

visits, document when the visit is

16:55

denied, and then bring all of that

16:57

before the judge at their next hearing,

16:59

which was scheduled for November 26th,

17:02

2008. The judge had

17:04

already indicated that he expected

17:07

to expand Steven's visitation to

17:09

include overnight visits, but

17:11

who knows what the judge would do when

17:13

he found out that Jennifer had been defying

17:15

the current court order. Not

17:17

following a court order isn't just seen

17:19

as something you're doing against the other

17:21

parent. You're doing it against the

17:23

judge. You're going against the court. And

17:26

judges don't like that. This

17:28

was really not going to look good

17:31

for Jennifer in court on top of

17:33

the unfounded abuse claims. The

17:36

evening before this hearing on November 25th,

17:38

Steven had a scheduled visit and as

17:40

always, he showed up to pick up

17:43

17 month old Lily. With

17:45

court the next day, I'm sure he thought Jennifer

17:48

would comply with the visitation schedule if only to

17:50

look good for the judge. Then

17:52

at around 5 30 that evening, a 911 call

17:56

came in. It was Jennifer

17:58

very upset. Saying that

18:00

her grandmother, 73-year-old Shirley Skinner,

18:03

needed help. She

18:05

said that her husband came in the house to

18:08

pick up their daughter and he went after Shirley.

18:11

Then he turned and went after her and

18:13

the baby and he was on the floor

18:15

shot. The 911

18:17

dispatcher repeated, you say she shot?

18:20

And Jennifer replied no. He

18:22

shot and she needed an ambulance

18:24

for her grandmother who had been

18:26

pushed and had heart trouble. This

18:29

was a confusing call. Jennifer was saying

18:32

that someone was shot but the help that

18:34

was needed was for someone with heart problems.

18:37

She was upset so the dispatcher took her

18:39

at face value and dispatched EMS to the

18:41

house on the report that

18:43

there was an elderly woman having heart

18:45

problems. The

18:47

first two people at the scene

18:50

were volunteer paramedics whose duty was

18:52

to render first aid until the

18:54

ambulance could get there. The

18:57

first one on the scene said that there were a

18:59

few people in the house who waved him inside. He

19:02

saw Shirley Skinner pacing in the

19:04

kitchen pretty frantically while

19:06

Jennifer and Shirley's husband Kenneth were

19:08

standing near her trying to calm

19:11

her down. Lily was

19:13

with Jennifer. When Shirley

19:15

saw the paramedics she said, I shot

19:18

him. Is he dead? Now

19:20

this guy stands there a little confused.

19:23

Shirley repeated it several times and then

19:26

pointed to the floor. Only

19:29

then did he see 32 year old

19:31

Steven Watkins lying face down. He

19:34

was dead having been shot once in the back

19:36

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19:38

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21:56

you. 911

22:00

call. Stephen had been

22:02

shot, so why did she

22:04

call an ambulance for Shirley

22:07

being in distress? Wouldn't

22:09

you call it for the person

22:11

who had a significantly more urgent

22:13

medical need? Since

22:15

there was nothing that could be

22:17

done for Stephen, the paramedic tried

22:19

to see if Shirley needed treatment,

22:22

and she first denied having any

22:24

medical issues. Her daughter, though, Jennifer's

22:26

mother Deborah, jumped in and said

22:28

she did have heart problems. The

22:31

only injuries the paramedic saw on

22:33

Shirley were two parallel scratches between

22:36

her thumb and forefinger. There was

22:38

some dried blood around them, but

22:40

no bruising. Shirley

22:43

was upset and just kept saying things like,

22:45

he shouldn't have come in here. At one

22:49

point, Shirley pointed to a broken sconce

22:51

on the wall and said that she

22:53

had been pushed into it. There

22:56

was another paramedic at the scene, and their

22:58

report is very similar to this one, so

23:00

I think we have a pretty good idea

23:02

of what the people in the house were

23:04

doing and saying in the aftermath of this.

23:07

All Jennifer said at the scene was basically what she

23:09

said on the 911 call. Stephen

23:12

forced his way in, he pushed Shirley,

23:14

and then he started to make his

23:16

way towards her and Lily. Then

23:19

Shirley grabbed a gun that was on a shelf

23:21

near the TV and shot him. At

23:24

some point in all of this, someone

23:27

in the house called an attorney and

23:29

Shirley was seen talking on the phone.

23:32

She then handed the phone to someone else and

23:34

simply said, I shouldn't have done this. The

23:37

ambulance arrived and Shirley was taken to

23:39

the hospital for observation since she was

23:41

agitated and short of breath. On

23:44

the ride to the hospital, her daughter Deborah

23:46

was with her and just kept telling Shirley

23:48

not to say anything else. And

23:52

that was the entire family's

23:54

decision going forward. Aside

23:57

from Jennifer's vague statement and Shirley's

23:59

attitude, agitated confession, they

24:02

were giving nothing. No one in the house

24:04

would say who shot Steven or why. They

24:06

wouldn't even clarify who was in the house

24:09

when it happened. So this

24:11

left the Ashland police to investigate

24:13

if this was murder or self-defense.

24:16

And when I say the Ashland police,

24:19

I mean that in the singular. Ashland,

24:22

with a population of around 11 or 1200

24:25

people, only had one

24:27

full-time police officer, the chief. And

24:30

he had never investigated a homicide

24:32

before. So there

24:34

were a lot of things that were

24:36

not done immediately, likely due to his

24:38

inexperience. He was never able

24:40

to fully ascertain how many people were in

24:42

the house at the time of the shooting.

24:45

He knew it was at least Jennifer, her

24:47

daughter, her grandmother, and her grandfather. Deborah

24:50

was there when the paramedics arrived, but that's

24:52

not to say she was there the whole

24:54

time. The chief also

24:56

did not do gunshot residue tests

24:58

on anyone, and that's probably because

25:00

Shirley admitted to having shot Steven.

25:03

But she was also agitated and in

25:06

distress, and a GSR test might have

25:08

helped definitively put the gun in her

25:10

hand. Now speaking of

25:13

her hand, no one took pictures of

25:15

Shirley's injury. Although

25:17

the chief was well-meaning, he

25:19

tried unsuccessfully to work the

25:22

case for months before he

25:24

called the state in to

25:26

help. He came

25:28

to believe through his investigation that

25:30

this was not a case of

25:32

self-defense or defense of another, and

25:35

the murder investigation needed more

25:37

experienced investigators from the state's

25:40

attorney's office. There

25:42

were reasons not to believe a

25:44

self-defense claim. For one, Steven

25:46

had the upper hand going into the

25:49

hearing the next day. The

25:51

judge had already indicated he would be giving

25:53

him more visitation, and Steven

25:55

had been following the orders to

25:57

the letter while Jennifer had not.

26:00

Why would he risk his pretty

26:02

easy court win by assaulting Shirley

26:05

and going after Jennifer? Why

26:07

didn't Steven do what he had done in the

26:10

past which was call the police and have it

26:12

documented? There was

26:14

also very little evidence of a physical

26:16

altercation at the scene. Shirley

26:19

said quote, he should not have come in

26:21

here, which indicated he

26:23

hadn't been invited in, but

26:25

there was no damage to the door and things

26:28

were not knocked over in the entry way like

26:30

he pushed open the door to barge in. All

26:33

they had was that broken wall sconce.

26:36

The sconce was still attached to

26:39

the wall, but three posts that

26:41

came out of it were all broken

26:43

and dangling by the wires. A

26:47

visual examination of the fixture

26:49

showed no blood on it

26:51

and Shirley also didn't have any

26:53

corresponding injuries. Had

26:55

she been pushed into the fixture hard

26:58

enough to break off three poles, wouldn't

27:00

she at least have a bruise from it? And

27:04

now to mention that the sconce appeared to be about

27:06

5 and a half feet up the wall, Shirley

27:08

stood just 5 feet tall. Now

27:12

maybe she got pushed and her

27:14

hands flailed up and her hand

27:16

hit the sconce, breaking all three

27:18

poles and giving her two scrapes.

27:21

To me that seems like something worth following

27:23

up on to rule it in or out,

27:26

but like I said the injury wasn't

27:28

photographed and they couldn't go back and

27:30

reconstruct it. To the

27:33

investigators, they believed that the sconce had

27:35

either already been broken or it was

27:38

broken in some attempt to stage

27:40

it. It seemed

27:42

much more likely that the injuries to

27:44

the webbing of Shirley's thumb and forefinger

27:46

were from the gun used to shoot

27:49

Steven. It was a

27:51

9mm Glock and the scrapes could

27:53

have been from the slide. It's

27:55

a common enough injury particularly for

27:57

people not used to handling a

28:00

gun like that, that it has

28:02

a name, Slide-Bite. And

28:04

Shirley was definitely not used to shooting

28:07

that gun or really any gun. That's

28:09

not to say she never shot a

28:11

gun before, but she wasn't an avid

28:14

shooter, and the gun was Jennifer's. She

28:16

had bought it many years before, and

28:19

the family kept it loaded on a shelf

28:21

near the television, which was why Shirley was

28:23

able to so easily and quickly grab it.

28:25

I have to

28:27

say for an inexperienced shooter, this was

28:29

quite the shot. Based on

28:32

the little information that Shirley and

28:34

Jennifer gave, it looks like Shirley

28:36

took the shot at 15 to 20 feet,

28:39

and she hit Steven right in the

28:42

back of his head, instantly killing him.

28:45

So it seemed to the investigators

28:47

that there were two possible scenarios

28:49

here. One was it

28:52

happened the way Shirley and Jennifer said.

28:54

Steven barged in, pushed Shirley into the

28:56

wall, and went for Jennifer when he

28:58

was killed. Or

29:00

he had been led into the house, and

29:02

when his back was turned, someone

29:05

in the house executed him to keep

29:07

him from getting custody of Lilly. With

29:10

the missteps in the early investigation, it

29:13

seemed like they would never be able

29:15

to prove which it was. But

29:18

then the investigators learned about something else

29:20

that happened that day, as Jennifer prepped

29:22

for the custody hearing. Jennifer's

29:25

mother, Deborah, hired a

29:27

private investigator to supervise

29:30

Steven picking Lilly up.

29:32

He said that he was told Steven

29:35

would be there around 4.45 in the

29:37

afternoon, and what they were looking for

29:39

from the PI was third-party documentation. Deborah

29:43

said that Lilly would really carry

29:45

on crying and wetting herself whenever

29:48

she was around Steven, and they

29:50

wanted that documented to bring to

29:52

court. But at 3.30 that day,

29:55

Deborah called the PI and

29:58

canceled. She told them not to come back. come

30:00

by and they didn't need a services. The

30:03

family was not talking to the police,

30:05

so they couldn't ask Deborah about this.

30:09

But down the road, in a bit of an

30:11

attempt to defend herself and her family in the

30:13

media, Deborah told the

30:15

state journal register that she canceled

30:17

because a child psychologist advised them

30:19

that evidence of a hired PI

30:22

observing a crying child wouldn't really

30:24

help in court. And

30:27

the fact that it wouldn't help in court

30:29

was true. Lily was 17 months

30:31

old at that point, and that's really the

30:33

peak of separation anxiety. It

30:35

would have been normal for her to cry

30:37

when she had to separate from her primary

30:40

caretaker, and a judge probably

30:42

wouldn't consider it. So maybe that was

30:44

the reason Deborah canceled the PI, and

30:46

maybe if she explained that to the

30:48

police early on, they would have found

30:51

it a reasonable enough explanation. But she

30:53

didn't. She didn't say it until two

30:55

years later. So to

30:57

the investigators, looking at this

31:00

case without that added explanation,

31:02

it looked like Deborah knew something was

31:05

going to happen that night, and she

31:07

didn't want a witness. The

31:09

initial plan may have been to go to

31:11

court with the PI's evidence to try to

31:13

keep Steven from getting custody, but at

31:16

some point that day, the plan

31:18

changed. And if

31:20

that was true, that the plan

31:22

changed to murder, this was

31:24

a conspiracy. It

31:27

seemed pretty clear at that point that if

31:29

Shirley was forced to defend herself, she

31:32

would mount a self-defense or a

31:34

defense of another claim. And

31:36

the investigators decided that she

31:39

could argue that in court. So

31:42

on October 5th, 2009, ten months after Steven's

31:44

death, 74-year-old Shirley Skinner was arrested. She

31:50

and her husband, along with Jennifer

31:52

and Lily, had moved down to

31:54

their Florida vacation home in

31:56

Lake Seminole, and that is where she was arrested.

32:00

At the time they took Shirley into custody

32:02

for the murder of Steven Watkins, the police

32:04

said that more arrests were possible. Shirley

32:07

waved extradition, so within days she

32:09

was back in Illinois, locked up

32:11

on a $5 million bond. Then,

32:16

in December of 2009, the

32:18

grand jury indicted her on

32:20

additional charges related to

32:22

attempting to hire two of her

32:24

employees in their family business to

32:26

commit the murder. She had told

32:29

both of them that she would pay $10,000 to have Steven

32:31

killed. Her

32:34

attorney said that this was just an off-handed joke

32:36

and that if either of the men thought she

32:38

was serious, they would have gone to

32:40

the police, which they didn't. But

32:43

the state countered that both men were

32:45

employees of Shirley's, which gave them a

32:47

financial incentive not to come forward.

32:51

While these criminal charges were

32:53

pending, Steven's family, who

32:55

were still dealing with having just

32:58

lost him, asked Jennifer

33:00

if they could visit with Lily, and

33:03

she refused. There

33:05

was an attempted offer that Shirley's bond

33:07

could be lowered in exchange for a

33:09

visit, and Jennifer still refused.

33:13

For the state, this just

33:16

confirmed the entire motive. They

33:18

believed that Jennifer and her family viewed

33:20

Lily as a piece of property that

33:22

belonged to them, and they would do

33:24

what they had to in order to

33:27

keep control. As

33:29

the trial approached, the state had a very clear

33:31

theory of the crime. Steven

33:34

showed up for his visit like usual, but

33:37

rather than refusing him to see

33:39

Lily, they invited him to step

33:41

inside. When he did that,

33:43

Shirley pulled the gun and shot him

33:45

from behind in a planned execution. The

33:48

issue here was going to

33:51

be that early investigation. How

33:53

could they prove this is what happened? Shirley

33:56

told multiple people at the scene that she was

33:58

the one who shot Steven. but what if

34:01

she denied that in court? What

34:03

independent proof other than her

34:05

excited utterances did they have?

34:08

They had injuries to her hand

34:10

that people saw but were not

34:12

documented. They didn't have GSR test

34:15

results. They didn't have fingerprints

34:17

on the gun which isn't unusual

34:19

given the materials in that particular

34:21

gun. So then they

34:24

DNA tested it and they found

34:26

female DNA but surely was excluded

34:28

as a possible contributor. Jennifer

34:31

was not excluded so it could have

34:33

been her DNA and since she owned

34:36

the gun I think it's probably safe

34:38

to say it was. But

34:40

they also found the police chief's DNA

34:42

even though he said he never handled

34:44

the gun without gloves which

34:47

then brings up a question of

34:49

contamination. So the

34:51

state was confident they knew what happened but

34:53

less confident they could prove it in court

34:56

so they offered Shirley a deal. If she

34:59

pleaded out on a lesser charge she

35:01

would be sentenced to around nine years

35:03

in prison. At 74 years

35:05

old she would have a chance of

35:07

a life of freedom afterwards but

35:10

if she went to trial and was convicted she

35:12

would spend the rest of her life behind bars.

35:15

Shirley turned down the deal. So

35:18

this case went to trial in May of

35:20

2010. Jennifer did not

35:22

attend any of the trial and

35:25

she remained living in Florida resisting

35:27

all of Stevens family's efforts to

35:30

see Lily. They ended up filing

35:32

a court case for grandparent visitation which

35:34

we'll get into later. At

35:37

Shirley's trial the state presented the

35:39

Skinner family as clannish closed off

35:41

to outsiders and possessive

35:43

of their family members. When

35:47

Stephen Watkins filed for custody he

35:49

was threatening their way of life.

35:52

When attempts to accuse him of truly disgusting

35:55

crimes failed they then tried

35:57

to block his access to his daughter. But

36:00

that wasn't getting him to go away, and

36:02

there was a hearing on the horizon, one

36:05

that was likely going to go in his

36:07

favor, so Shirley decided to put an end

36:09

to it. The

36:11

defense, they had a

36:14

strategy that I didn't anticipate. I

36:16

was 100% sure they were

36:18

going to present this as a clear-cut

36:20

defense of another case. They

36:23

were going to stick Shirley on the

36:25

stand and have her tearfully explain how

36:27

terrified she was when Steven barged through

36:29

the door, pushed her aside, and

36:32

then started to go after Jennifer and Lily.

36:35

She's a small woman who looks every

36:37

bit the part of a great-grandmother. Now

36:40

don't get me wrong, she's a strong

36:42

lady. She's the matriarch of the family,

36:44

she was running a family business years

36:46

past retirement age. But if

36:48

Jodi Arias' attorneys could make

36:51

her look mousy, Shirley's could

36:53

have made her look like a sympathetic, timid

36:55

old lady. But they didn't. They

36:58

decided instead to question if she was

37:00

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new and for available, head to renew.com. So

39:17

that's why I went through all those gaps

39:20

in the investigation. The only forensic

39:22

evidence we have, the DNA, made it

39:24

possible that it was Jennifer holding the

39:27

gun, and the defense really

39:29

used that. They

39:31

pointed out that there were multiple

39:33

photographs taken of the front door

39:35

but zero of Shirley's supposed injuries.

39:38

And if she had those injuries where the slide

39:40

scraped her skin to the point that she bled,

39:43

why was her DNA not on the gun? Additionally,

39:46

there was a ton of evidence

39:48

of Jennifer hating Steven, but

39:50

none of that applied directly to Shirley.

39:54

There were no communications between Shirley and

39:56

Steven, or really any evidence that she

39:58

was involved in the divorce process. proceedings

40:00

in any way. The

40:02

only thing that put the gun in Shirley's

40:04

hands were statements she made while

40:07

she was having a medical incident after

40:09

someone was shot in her home. According

40:12

to the defense, they could not be

40:14

relied on. The defense

40:16

chose to call no witnesses,

40:18

instead covering their case through

40:20

cross-examination and their closing arguments,

40:23

where they tried to drive home the

40:25

point that no one could put

40:27

the gun in Shirley's hand beyond

40:29

a reasonable doubt. There was

40:31

a reasonable alternative suspect, someone

40:34

whose DNA was likely on the gun and

40:36

who had all the motive in the world,

40:39

Jennifer. The

40:41

jury took the case, and we do

40:43

know a bit about their deliberations based

40:46

on interviews later done by students at

40:48

the Nepal University College of Law. It

40:51

seems the consensus of the jurors was

40:53

that they were surprised the defense did

40:55

not put on more of a case.

40:58

They were unaware that this initially

41:01

looked like a self-defense case because

41:03

Shirley didn't testify. No one else

41:06

in the family testified on her behalf

41:08

either, which seemed strange to the jury,

41:10

because certainly someone else in the family

41:12

knew whether Shirley pulled the trigger or

41:14

not. They

41:17

didn't have any character witnesses to let the

41:19

jury know how unlikely it was for Shirley

41:21

to have done something so violent, and

41:24

maybe they didn't put anyone on the

41:26

stand because it was something Shirley would

41:28

do, and in fact, did

41:31

do. After

41:33

15 minutes of discussion, they had their

41:35

first vote, which was 11 guilty,

41:37

1 not guilty. They

41:40

had about 15 more minutes of

41:42

discussion, followed by a second vote,

41:44

and this time it was unanimous,

41:47

guilty for first degree murder

41:49

and solicitation of murder. She

41:52

was sentenced to 55 years in prison. With

41:56

Shirley off to prison and Steven

41:58

dead, if Jennifer thought her days

42:01

of battling for custody were over,

42:03

she was very, very wrong because

42:05

Steven's family wanted visitation with

42:07

a lily and they were going to

42:09

push for it. Now, every state is

42:11

a bit different when it comes to grandparents' rights

42:13

to visitation. In Illinois, there are

42:16

limited circumstances where a grandparent even

42:18

has the legal standing to ask

42:20

the court for visitation. If

42:23

both of the parents of the grandchild

42:26

agree not to allow a visit, they

42:28

can't even petition. In

42:30

this case, though, the Watkins

42:32

could apply because Steven was

42:34

deceased. The

42:37

hardest step to overcome, though, is

42:39

that they had to prove that

42:41

Jennifer was unreasonable in not allowing

42:44

them to visit and that the

42:46

child had experienced harm due to

42:48

it. The reason this

42:50

is so difficult to prove is that

42:53

the baseline going into court is

42:55

that a parent who is fit enough to raise

42:57

their child would not choose

42:59

something that is harming them. But

43:02

the Watkins were able to prove to

43:05

this judge that it was harmful

43:07

for Lily not to visit with them.

43:10

It seems the main reason was that

43:12

she would otherwise grow up without learning

43:14

about her father or hearing positive things

43:17

about him if she didn't

43:19

have meaningful visits with his family.

43:22

This judge had very harsh

43:25

words for Jennifer. He

43:27

said he saw evil in

43:29

her and even said he felt

43:31

sorry for Lily because she had to

43:33

live with Jennifer. So

43:36

the Watkins were granted visits, but if

43:39

you think Jennifer followed this court order

43:41

any better than she followed the one

43:43

she had with Steven, you're sorely mistaken.

43:46

It wasn't long before Jennifer was

43:48

refusing visits. And

43:50

really around the same time she's

43:53

refusing these visits, the state had

43:55

decided they weren't entirely done with

43:57

the Skinner-Webster family. They did not

43:59

believe that it was Shirley and only

44:01

Shirley who planned Steven's murder. Another

44:04

grand jury was held in November of

44:06

2010 and this time members of the

44:08

family broke their silence. What

44:11

they told the grand jury is

44:13

sealed but they did speak with

44:15

the state journal register, not Jennifer

44:17

but Shirley's husband, her daughter Deborah,

44:19

her son Ed, and her son-in-law.

44:22

It seems the family realized that staying

44:24

quiet for two years really didn't help

44:27

them legally because Shirley was now in

44:29

prison and it certainly didn't help

44:31

them in the court of public opinion. They

44:34

said they didn't talk under the advice of

44:36

their attorneys which I can't say is the

44:38

wrong choice. It was clear the

44:40

state was looking at this as a conspiracy

44:43

case and if you're a suspect and a

44:45

murderer it's almost always in your best interest

44:47

to stop talking. The

44:49

family though was divided in what they

44:51

thought really happened. Shirley's

44:53

son Ed was and is as far

44:56

as I know convinced that Jennifer killed

44:58

Steven and Shirley took the rap for

45:00

her so that custody of Lily would

45:02

remain with the family. Ed

45:05

later told Dateline that Jennifer was the

45:07

golden child in the family, she was

45:09

the first granddaughter and she was spoiled

45:12

from day one. She could

45:14

be sweet when things went her way but

45:16

when she got upset it turned ugly fast.

45:19

He said she was entitled and

45:21

controlling with her behaviors which we

45:23

do see in the custody battle

45:25

over her daughter. Ed

45:28

absolutely could see Shirley taking the blame

45:30

for Jennifer because she would do anything

45:32

for her. Jennifer's

45:35

mother Deborah does not believe that and

45:37

neither does Kenneth, Shirley's husband. Deborah

45:40

said she would never let her mother go to

45:42

jail for her daughter but that Shirley shouldn't be

45:45

in prison either. She

45:47

was acting to defend the family. But

45:50

a big issue with what everyone thinks

45:52

happened is that they all claimed not

45:54

to have been there. Ed

45:56

wasn't at the house Kenneth said he

45:58

was in another room. when he heard Shirley

46:01

fall and then a gunshot so he didn't

46:03

see it. Jennifer

46:05

would also later claim to have been

46:07

in another room, apparently hiding

46:09

from Steven. And

46:11

Deborah also wasn't at home, she was

46:13

possibly at work, though she couldn't remember

46:16

the exact details two years later. Shirley's

46:19

family also said that contrary

46:22

to the prosecution's portrayal of

46:24

Steven as a kind man

46:26

who just wanted to be part of his daughter's

46:29

life, they knew

46:31

Steven as someone with a temper

46:33

and they repeated that they still believed

46:35

he had abused his daughter. Steven's

46:38

family said in that same article

46:40

that Steven was never aggressive towards

46:42

anyone in his life and what about

46:44

shooting someone in the back of the

46:46

head says self-defense. They

46:48

believed that Shirley pulled the trigger in

46:50

a planned murder and they only had

46:53

partial justice because only Shirley was in

46:55

prison. The new

46:57

grand jury did not lead to additional charges

46:59

in Steven's murder but this was not the

47:02

end of the legal woes for the family

47:04

because Jennifer was soon held in contempt for

47:06

not allowing those court ordered visits.

47:09

An arrest warrant was issued for her in March of

47:11

2011 and she

47:13

was jailed in Florida while she

47:16

fought extradition. Jennifer

47:18

sat in jail for around five

47:20

months before she was released because

47:23

Florida failed to extradite her. She

47:26

was so adamant that Steven's family not

47:28

be given a visit that she would

47:30

rather sit in jail while her family

47:32

took care of Lily than grant that

47:34

visit. Also

47:37

in 2011, Shirley's appeal was heard

47:39

and she was partially successful. She

47:42

did not get the first degree murder

47:44

charge overturned but she did get the

47:46

solicitation conviction tossed out. The

47:48

appellate court found that the evidence

47:50

there was really lacking. They

47:53

had one employee's testimony that was

47:55

called equivocal and vague and the

47:57

second employee who was there for

47:59

the conviction. conversation did not seem

48:01

to remember the details of it.

48:04

So Shirley got one conviction tossed out, but

48:06

because of the other one she stayed in

48:08

prison. The following year in 2012,

48:12

Stevens family helped pass a

48:14

state statute that allows judges

48:16

to suspend the driver's licenses

48:18

of parents who

48:20

refuse to allow court ordered

48:22

visitation between their children and

48:25

their non-custodial parents, and

48:27

they can also issue a fine. Now

48:29

this law makes sense if you think

48:31

about how Illinois has a similar law

48:34

for non-payment of child support. If

48:36

not paying your child support gets

48:39

you a license suspension, why shouldn't

48:41

refusing visitation do likewise? Now

48:45

this law did have opposition and there are similar

48:47

issues that come up with these types of laws

48:49

for not paying your child support. For

48:52

one, there are already punitive options

48:54

for judges which include jail time

48:56

and criminal charges. So

48:58

we should really focus on making the court use the

49:00

tools they have. The other

49:02

main argument against these types of

49:04

laws is that you shouldn't attach

49:07

driving privileges to something unrelated to

49:09

driving. In spite of

49:11

the opposition, the law did pass, but

49:14

nothing the Watkins did in

49:16

Illinois would force Florida to

49:19

successfully enforce the visitation schedule.

49:22

There was a second attempt to arrest Jennifer

49:24

in 2013, but at that point they couldn't

49:26

find her. Every time they

49:28

went to the house where she supposedly lived,

49:30

they said she didn't live there. The

49:33

Watkins managed maybe two phone

49:35

calls with Lily by calling

49:38

Deborah's phone, but then that

49:40

number was disconnected and they had

49:42

no contact. But

49:44

then in 2016, Jennifer left Florida. She

49:48

moved with Lily to Massachusetts to live with

49:50

a man that she had met at church.

49:53

Steven's parents had heard through a mutual friend

49:56

that Jennifer had moved, so they decided to

49:58

see if they could help her. Massachusetts

50:00

could do what Florida couldn't.

50:03

A warrant was issued for Jennifer's arrest,

50:06

and they not only arrested

50:08

her, they managed to successfully

50:10

extradite her to Illinois. Lily

50:13

was then put into state care and placed

50:15

in the home of Steven's sister in October

50:17

2016. Jennifer

50:20

then entered a custody battle, not

50:22

really with Steven's family, but with

50:24

the state. A hearing

50:27

was held to determine if keeping Lily

50:29

from her grandparents was

50:31

enough justification to remove Lily

50:33

from Jennifer's care. Jennifer

50:36

knew she had to fight to get

50:39

Lily back, so one of the things

50:41

she did was quickly break things off

50:43

with her fiancé, who was actually facing

50:45

fraud charges for something entirely unrelated, but

50:48

that was definitely not a good look, and

50:50

Jennifer's only focus at this point was getting

50:52

Lily back. Jennifer said

50:54

in court that she only left Illinois

50:56

because people blamed her for Steven's murder,

50:59

and she was being harassed. She

51:01

claimed she tried to arrange visits

51:03

with Steven's mother Penny both in

51:06

Florida and in Illinois, but Penny

51:08

denied that ever happened. She

51:10

didn't even know Jennifer was in Florida

51:12

initially. The only time she talked to

51:14

Jennifer about visits was when she had a scheduled visit

51:16

in 2010 with Lily

51:18

shortly after getting visitation rights.

51:21

She then received a text from Jennifer

51:24

that said, Gone out of state, you

51:26

can come visit if you want to. The

51:29

text did not say what state she was

51:31

in. Beyond that, Penny

51:33

never had Jennifer's new phone number. She

51:36

had her mother Deborah's number, which is

51:38

what she called, until that got disconnected.

51:41

Penny even hired a PI to find them, and

51:43

why in the world would she have done that

51:45

if Jennifer was allowing visits? Jennifer

51:48

set up a GoFundMe for her legal

51:50

expenses, and she actually put out some

51:52

of her story there. It's

51:55

the first time since Steven's murder that she

51:57

said what happened. She wrote that

51:59

she and Lily were in a bedroom and Steven

52:01

was coming after her. Writing about

52:03

what Shirley did, Jennifer said, quote, knowing

52:05

that he would come and kill me,

52:07

she grabbed a gun and fired one

52:10

warning shot, which happened to hit him

52:12

in the back of the head. This

52:14

was an act of self defense, end

52:16

quote. In

52:18

court and in the go fund me, Jennifer

52:21

said her former in laws were free to

52:23

see Lily in Florida. And in

52:25

an interview with the media, Jennifer said it

52:27

had been on her mind shortly before her

52:29

arrest to make sure a visit happened, but

52:32

she was arrested before she could get them

52:34

set up. After six years

52:36

of no visits, she was suddenly

52:38

ready to do it. But wouldn't

52:40

you know they arrested her before

52:42

she could. No

52:44

matter how this was twisted, it's

52:47

pretty clear that Jennifer was keeping

52:49

Lily from her grandparents. Now

52:51

the question was, was this

52:54

enough to rule that Lily

52:56

who was well cared for

52:58

otherwise had been neglected by

53:00

Jennifer and the judge

53:02

said she had been. Not

53:05

only was it neglect to prevent her

53:08

from knowing her father's family, Jennifer put

53:10

herself in a position to be

53:12

arrested for disobeying the court order

53:14

and that arrest would have a

53:16

negative impact on Lily. Now

53:19

this is not what we usually see

53:21

in a neglect case. When we

53:23

hear the reporting that says

53:26

simply that Lily was removed from

53:28

the home due to neglect, it

53:30

paints a picture in our minds that is

53:33

not entirely accurate. Aside

53:36

from the custody issue, Jennifer was

53:38

more or less taking good care

53:40

of her. Because

53:43

this case was not about outright

53:45

abuse and severe neglect, it seemed

53:47

to always be a case where

53:49

Jennifer would get Lily back once

53:51

she completed the things the court

53:53

asked of her like going to

53:55

counseling sessions and hopefully she learned

53:57

her lesson about following court rules.

54:00

orders. The judge told her

54:02

she was in the driver's seat with this. Once she

54:04

got her counseling and had a plan for how she

54:06

was going to not defy the court

54:08

order in the future, Lily would

54:10

be returned. And initially,

54:13

that is what Lily wanted as well.

54:15

She wanted to move back with her

54:17

mother. But then after

54:19

a few months in her aunt's care,

54:21

she changed her mind. She

54:23

expressed this to a number of people,

54:26

including her therapist and her

54:28

guardian ablietum. The

54:30

supervised visits she had with her

54:32

mom had not gone as smoothly

54:34

as everyone hoped for. Lily

54:37

told her therapist that Jennifer would

54:39

whisper things in her ear and

54:41

promise her things in her quote,

54:43

lying voice. There

54:45

were also notes from the visitation

54:47

supervisor who had to intervene with

54:49

both Jennifer and her mother

54:51

over things they said to Lily. With

54:54

Jennifer, it was mostly just bringing up what

54:56

would happen when Lily came home and how

54:58

she would decorate her room and things like

55:00

that. She was told by

55:03

the supervisor not to bring up reunification

55:05

at the visits. This is

55:07

such an uncertain time for kids and it's

55:09

best to just keep conversations in the present.

55:13

Jennifer's mother, Deborah, went a step further. She

55:15

did talk to Lily about coming home. But

55:18

then during an August 2017 visit,

55:20

Deborah told Lily to be careful

55:22

with what she told the judge

55:24

because it could hurt what happened

55:26

between her and her mom. The

55:29

visitation supervisor again had to intervene and

55:31

tell her to stop saying things like

55:33

that. Lily's

55:35

counselor told the court that the visits

55:38

were becoming a source of stress for

55:40

Lily because she was becoming aware of

55:42

the ongoing manipulation coming from

55:44

her mother. It was

55:47

causing her feelings of anger, sadness,

55:49

and distrust. The

55:51

counselor said Lily had been consistent since

55:53

February of 2017 after

55:56

four months with her aunt and uncle that she

55:58

wanted to stay with the them and that

56:00

she didn't feel safe with her mother. Lily

56:04

had also told the guardian ad litem that her

56:06

mom told her to say things like she was

56:08

forced to sleep on the floor and

56:11

to cry at night and

56:13

beg her aunt to go home. Now

56:16

when asked directly about this, Jennifer said she

56:18

didn't know why Lily had told him those

56:20

things. Jennifer said she

56:22

simply prayed with Lily that they would be

56:25

together again and she did everything the state

56:27

asked of her. She went to

56:29

counseling and according to her counselor she

56:31

was making progress. She was starting

56:33

to see things from another point of

56:35

view and understand how her

56:37

choices led her to where she was.

56:40

She said in court that she had hurt people

56:43

that were sitting there right then, her

56:45

daughter the most, and she was doing everything

56:47

she could to fix it. Jennifer

56:50

wanted custody back but the state

56:52

was looking to actually restrict her

56:55

visits more. The

56:57

judge decided to leave

56:59

Lily with her aunt for the

57:02

time being but not to restrict

57:04

Jennifer's visits and he suggested that

57:06

Jennifer consult with her attorney. The

57:09

custody battle would end in August

57:11

of 2017 when they reached an

57:13

agreement. Lily would stay where she

57:15

was but Jennifer would still retain

57:17

parental rights and have the

57:19

right to visitation. It turned

57:22

this from a kinship foster placement

57:24

to a private guardianship arrangement and

57:27

finally gave Lily the stability she

57:30

deserved. Now as

57:32

for Shirley Skinner, after her

57:34

appeals failed she started asking for clemency

57:37

with the first request coming in late

57:39

2014. She cited her poor health as

57:41

the primary

57:44

reason she should be shown mercy so she

57:46

could go home and be with her family.

57:48

Her new attorney

57:50

also said it should be considered that

57:53

her trial attorney had advised her poorly.

57:55

The self-defense argument

57:57

was the stronger of the two defenses.

57:59

but he went with a different

58:01

strategy. Now, a failed

58:04

trial strategy does not mean your

58:06

attorney was incompetent, and

58:08

it may not be enough for an

58:10

appeal. It could be considered in a

58:12

clemency argument. Steven's family

58:14

responded, recognizing Shirley's age and

58:16

poor health, but noted

58:19

that those things existed when

58:21

she killed Steven. So it's kind of hard

58:24

to argue she wasn't a risk to the

58:26

public. Not just that, she

58:28

wanted a mercy that she did not

58:30

give to their son. Clemency

58:33

in 2014 was denied, and

58:36

though she was sick at the time she

58:38

appealed, Shirley is, as of this recording, nine

58:41

and a half years later, still alive and

58:43

still incarcerated at the age of 89. Some

58:47

of Shirley's family still believe she should

58:49

be released because this was self-defense. Her

58:52

son still thinks she didn't do it. The

58:54

Watkins family, however, thinks she is

58:57

right where she belongs. Steven's

59:00

family did start an online petition

59:02

a few years ago to ask

59:05

the governor to deny Shirley's ongoing

59:07

clemency attempts. I don't

59:09

know how you, as a

59:11

listener, feel about geriatric inmates

59:13

and attempts at clemency under

59:15

those conditions, or really how

59:17

you feel about this case. I

59:19

like to mostly lay out

59:22

the case and let people make up their

59:24

own minds rather than inserting my opinion all

59:26

the time, because we all have our own

59:28

life experiences and value systems that we use

59:30

when we make our decisions on how we

59:32

feel about things. If

59:34

after hearing all of this, you do

59:37

object to clemency for Shirley Skinner, I

59:39

will leave a link to the Watkins

59:41

family petition in the show notes. Thank

59:49

you for listening. If you want more

59:51

content, check out my other show, Crime

59:53

Lines and Consequences, wherever you get your

59:55

podcasts. I also offer bonus content and

59:58

ad-free listening at patreon.com/crimely. the

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