0:03

A Warning. This

0:06

episode contains references to child

0:08

sexual abuse. If this

0:10

content affects you, the number for Lifeline is

0:13

13 11 14. G'day,

0:22

I'm former police officer Brent

0:24

Sanders. And for

0:26

the past 25 years, I've

0:28

dedicated myself to sharing what I've learned

0:30

on the force to the

0:32

Australian public, so they can

0:34

better protect themselves from falling victim

0:36

to crime. So

0:39

with the help of some of the

0:41

most respected current and former detectives and

0:43

high ranking law enforcement agents, I'm going

0:46

to pull back the curtain on what life

0:48

is like on the force and

0:51

what they've learned about how

0:53

crime and criminals really work.

0:57

These are real stories from

1:00

real detectives. This

1:03

week, a detective who worked in

1:06

the heartland of Melbourne's criminal world.

1:09

He actually had found a listening

1:11

device in the roof of his house, but

1:13

even though he had done that, didn't stop

1:16

him. Noel is

1:18

a 29 year veteran of the

1:20

Victorian police. He's

1:22

asked us not to use his full name

1:25

due to operational matters. We'll

1:27

hear about what it took to bring

1:29

down a high profile drug trafficker who

1:32

is moving from state to state,

1:34

exploiting a South Australian legal loophole

1:36

to deal high quantities of illicit

1:39

drugs. But

1:42

before we get to that, we're heading

1:44

to St Kilda in Melbourne's inner city.

1:47

A young man has just walked into a

1:49

police station and a junior

1:51

constable has taken his statement. Died

2:00

on the front. Can't have a place.

2:02

Dyson who bomb was a little bit

2:04

more inquiring. Than. Just

2:06

asking some basic questions. I guess he

2:08

smelled a rat. The.

2:10

Something for the fought right in. The kid came

2:12

in the style, ah, scheme. Some. Questions

2:15

The kid was. Obviously

2:17

I'm. Disabled.

2:19

Mentally disabled he was saw probably about

2:22

fifteen or sixteen year old kid but.

2:24

Mental capacity of not much younger than

2:27

that. Uniform play.

2:29

Some found that the kid. Feinstein.

2:32

With a couple of adults in L would.

2:35

And. I didn't smell right so he suggested that

2:37

we have a check to in Riyadh attached to him.

2:40

As. It unfolded it. turns out the

2:42

kid was so I had my wife from

2:45

home. A few days earlier he

2:47

been wandering around the wind a straight

2:49

Raul I station. And

2:51

at Bain befriended by a

2:54

couple of. Adults

2:56

and. What? Ensued,

2:58

a course was distasteful. Mom.

3:02

Will. Decide Ruff the kid with an

3:05

independent. Person. Present and

3:07

ah, we. Did

3:09

early morning ride the next die?

3:11

ah and. To. The Lie:

3:14

a number of exhibits from the

3:16

premises. Turns out that. We.

3:18

Are with the force of time we

3:21

gotta commit. Always a committed for trawl.

3:23

On. Non sexual penetration of

3:25

a. Underwrite person et

3:28

cetera, Any why we

3:30

got we got to trawl and while the

3:32

you guys he. Didn't. Accept the

3:34

invitation and there when on the run, The.

3:37

Gods did get a trial. I think you may

3:39

have got three or four years, which you have

3:41

to look at it through the prism. A dice,

3:43

Dice. Dice. dice dice. He'd probably get. Places.

3:47

Detainees from Lies offenses but it

3:49

was a different time and dumb

3:51

yeah with certainly wasn't treated as

3:53

severely as I out to die

3:55

anyway. So. Maybe. A

3:58

couple years Trace Fi and. Second

4:00

offender was ah identified

4:02

in the Northern Territory.

4:05

In: Catch On actually or slow up. To

4:08

accident employed to successfully applied for

4:10

his extradition. Sodium.

4:12

Of that a run, another trial. At

4:14

which time out. I. Know to

4:17

course I victim. And the victim of. The.

4:19

Victimization. The ice of More or Less

4:21

is now couple years older and. And

4:24

ah, I've been sleep tracking damn. Unfortunately,

4:29

there are a number of incidents

4:31

occurred in the ensuing couple years.

4:34

We've. Got like a tall, difficult. Saw.

4:37

This kid is himself in and

4:39

out of institutions. And

4:41

when I tracked him down or found that

4:44

paid actually, Been. Investigated several

4:46

times for. Prying. On

4:48

younger children. Sexually as well.

4:52

And I guess. You have a bit of

4:54

a look at. The. Circle

4:56

Of Events. You have

4:59

two guys. That are brought

5:01

up in institutions. Yeah. It's well

5:03

documented now. This. Kind of saw

5:05

activity that has to imply some

5:08

some institutions I've of these and

5:10

ah. I guess it. People

5:13

become. Adjusted. To

5:15

that lost all. And

5:18

you have us the cycle where.

5:20

The. Abused becomes the abuser. Simas

5:23

the same as a Pepsi.

5:25

Somebody. It's bullied at school, becomes a

5:27

bully, Or. And nice. Had

5:29

a sexually pride upon sometimes become.

5:32

Predators. Themselves. The.

5:34

Semi different ways to unpack the snow,

5:37

but it's that cycle of events is.

5:39

It. Doesn't justify of course the conduct

5:41

of behavior. Boy new these offenders because

5:44

as we know know there are tragically

5:46

many young boys who was sexually abused

5:48

who don't themselves have become offended. But

5:50

of course when I do and that

5:53

social roles on very very confronting on

5:55

a number liberals Not least of all

5:57

I guess know someone in your role.

6:00

Running that investigation, Yeah.

6:03

And the. Level.

6:05

said the thou different times that. Particular

6:08

Sailboat, A Basement and are.know

6:10

where those Simon apps? the

6:12

Western Suburbs or the Northern

6:14

Suburbs But certainly. Seem. Killed

6:16

have a nice dies to a lesser extent

6:18

now but of anti gets. It's.

6:21

Not that different. but.antic this anywhere near

6:23

the level is that of the early

6:25

eighties. Where. The was it was just

6:27

up. There.

6:29

Are just a lot of six collins running the

6:31

whole game? It. Really? Yeah,

6:33

lot of crimes against women. often

6:35

working girls are prostitutes. Certainly.

6:38

Wasn't a level of. Scrutiny I

6:40

guess and die right course. Open

6:43

to them. Will be haunted. I. Know

6:46

in this in this particular case, a

6:48

defender that did go to court pleaded

6:50

guilty received a custodial sentence When you

6:53

do the extradition of the second offender,

6:56

What? Ends up happening then the case sort

6:58

of falls apart of the with regards to

7:00

the the time that so lapsed the criminal

7:03

activities now on behalf of the young men

7:05

who was the victim's head is all that

7:07

and the and have that sort of finish

7:09

up. know. Well.

7:11

I guess. Luckily I didn't

7:13

have to produce a victim

7:15

because the accused. Pleaded.

7:18

Guilty. Luckily we didn't have to run. I

7:20

run a full blown trial, was of early

7:22

plate and done similar sense to the to

7:24

the of the first offender. Know

7:27

you mentioned the yeah that? the challenges,

7:29

the multi layered challenges of policing and

7:31

enrollment lox and killed or in the

7:33

eighties year in the sea I'd be

7:36

at that time a detective. Know

7:38

can you give us a a bit of

7:40

a broader rise of you have some some

7:42

of your rolls them and what it was

7:44

like being being a detective in St Kilda

7:46

doing that during that period of time. I

7:51

guess some. Again, As unless

7:53

you were they, it's very hard to come

7:55

by. The. environment the other taught

7:57

him go our environment a was because

8:00

we look at things today and there's a lot

8:02

of talk about ice and mess and stuff and

8:04

the and pills and the

8:06

effect that it has on society and people today

8:09

think, oh, well, hang on, this is just a

8:11

problem for today. I would never seen this before.

8:13

Never seen anything like it. Well, and

8:15

that's for a fact, if you go back to the

8:17

80s, late 70s and right through to

8:19

the, I guess the 90s, heroin

8:21

was a massive, massive issue

8:23

everywhere all over the country.

8:26

But particularly, it

8:29

was the primary

8:32

exchange area and domicile for

8:34

drug dealers and drug users.

8:38

Most drug users are drug dealers to

8:40

some extent. And of

8:42

course, what went with that was people

8:44

having to fund their habit and it

8:46

was a days of new color

8:48

televisions and video recorders, which a lot of

8:50

people wouldn't even know what they were now.

8:53

And everybody had a VCR. So,

8:56

you know, it would not be unusual to

8:59

arrest somebody for doing burglaries and

9:01

probably charge them with 40 or

9:03

50 burglaries over a week. But they just go

9:05

and take a front door and pick up

9:07

the tally and the video and into a

9:09

waiting car or in some cases, even a

9:11

waiting taxi and off

9:14

to the pawnbroker. That

9:16

was, you know, it was just

9:19

it was like it was a bit like the Wild

9:21

Wild West actually in those days. It was it

9:23

was pretty full on, very full on. So

9:25

you had this massive drug trade,

9:27

you had lots of burglaries, you had

9:30

lots of sex offenses, lots of assaults,

9:33

serious assaults. People would

9:35

come to St Kilda on the weekend Friday night,

9:37

Saturday night to party. They'd

9:40

come in from the suburbs. They'd

9:42

be in an environment that they

9:44

really had no real understanding of.

9:48

And they'd often be seriously assaulted end

9:50

up in hospital. It was

9:52

pretty common, very common. It's

9:55

interesting, Noel, isn't it? Everything changes. Everything

9:58

stays the same, doesn't it, Noel? you

10:00

know the cycle that we talk about

10:02

in behind it, there's

10:04

the same sort of social issues in

10:07

behind drug use and those

10:09

selling those using that type of thing and

10:12

I guess after 20 or 30 years in that

10:14

environment Noel it's must

10:16

just grind you down.

10:18

Yeah I think it there

10:21

were cycles in your life I think and

10:23

I spent four years at St

10:26

Kilda CIB and I remember a guy

10:29

that was there he was going to work in

10:31

one of the squads and he

10:33

said to me how long have you been here now so I've been

10:35

here a couple of years and he

10:37

said well for you

10:40

I would stay no longer than three years

10:43

because he said it gets you down it

10:45

just will get to you eventually and you

10:47

know people said when

10:50

you're in the zone you don't you don't actually see

10:52

that you can't see the forest for the trees and

10:54

I actually stayed there four

10:57

years and that was definitely a mistake

10:59

because you know it did take its toll

11:01

on me I probably I was what

11:03

I was working very hard I was drinking too much

11:05

I was playing too hard and

11:08

yeah when I did leave it was I was well passed

11:10

by you by date at that place I'll tell you you

11:13

know they'd got their value out of me early

11:15

days but the last 12 months or so probably

11:18

not so much wasn't that productive

11:21

but then I moved on to another

11:23

area and got reborn if you like

11:25

rejuvenated and reinvigorated and yeah it

11:28

does it you can't work that hard

11:30

and see those things day

11:33

after day and not have some effect and

11:35

I'm actually probably pretty lucky really

11:37

in a lot of ways that I came out

11:39

the initially came out of it pretty well to

11:41

use truth you

11:58

no if I can take you Ford now

12:01

in your career to 2000, you're

12:03

a detective sergeant in the Victorian

12:06

Organised Crime Swat investigating

12:08

a drug trafficking ring operating cross

12:11

borders between Victoria and New South Wales. Can

12:13

you just walk us through your involvement

12:15

in that please? Yeah,

12:18

when I had previously been

12:21

at the gaming and vice squad, no,

12:23

they did a reorganisation of the crime

12:25

department and threw all the cards

12:27

up in the air and

12:31

I went to the organised crime

12:33

squad and upon arrival,

12:37

the unit I was attached to had just been

12:40

winding up a large heroin

12:42

importing ring and

12:46

one of the persons that had just

12:49

very briefly stepped into

12:51

this group became

12:54

a person of interest to the

12:57

boss of the squad.

12:59

He knew him from years earlier

13:01

and a little slightly intrigued as to

13:03

what his role had been because it wasn't

13:05

apparent. So we formed

13:08

a group to have

13:10

a close look at this guy. He was an

13:12

old time crook. He's a, I

13:15

think, a former painter and banker and to tell you the

13:17

truth, he was actually old school. He

13:20

was quite pleasant chap really. He

13:23

visited the

13:25

main targets of this job, went

13:28

to their business premises, went

13:30

straight to Tullamarine, jumped on a

13:33

flight to Sydney, stayed a couple of hours, came back. Never

13:36

any explanation as to what he did,

13:38

what was motivating that. Anyway,

13:43

this intrigued the powers that

13:45

be at the time at the organised crime.

13:47

So we had a bit of

13:49

a look at him and we

13:52

found that he was doing a massive

13:55

amount of kilometres. He

13:57

lived in the southern suburbs of Melbourne. He'd

14:00

jump in his car with a colleague, with a

14:02

friend, and drive to Adelaide. He'd

14:05

then spend a night in Adelaide, he'd then drive

14:07

to Renmark. Spend

14:10

a night in Renmark, then he'd drive to Sydney

14:13

from Renmark. Then

14:15

he'd drive to the northern beaches of New South

14:18

Wales, then drive all the

14:20

way back to Melbourne. And he'd do that

14:22

about every 10 days. He'd have

14:24

about a five-day break in between, and

14:27

then repeat it. For a long time, weeks

14:30

and weeks and weeks, we couldn't really work

14:33

out what he was up to. At

14:35

one stage, we had the highway

14:38

patrol pick him up at,

14:40

I think in the western district somewhere on his way

14:42

to Adelaide. There was a

14:44

large amount of cash in the

14:46

boot of his car, I think from memory about

14:48

10 or 20k. The

14:52

highway patrolman didn't make a big deal

14:54

about it, just, you know, he was just doing it

14:56

in traffic stop. But certainly, that's

14:58

the age we had. It plagued our

15:00

interest. We knew

15:03

he was definitely up to something. And

15:05

we identified the people he was meeting

15:07

in Adelaide. They had cannabis connections. The

15:10

people he was meeting in Renmark, there was a

15:12

truck driver who did a regular, as

15:15

it turned out, did a regular run

15:17

from Adelaide to Sydney with a load

15:20

of steel. Personally,

15:22

he was meeting in Sydney, minor

15:24

drug matters, and

15:26

the same as the person that he was meeting

15:28

in up in Northern Beaches. And

15:31

this guy would change his phones. He'd have several

15:34

phones. He'd change them. We threw

15:36

good old-fashioned grassroots

15:41

investigation. We're able to, every

15:44

time he changed his phones, we had the

15:46

numbers very, very quickly. So we were able

15:48

to update our telephone interception.

15:53

And I'm not giving away too many secrets here because

15:55

all this came out in court cases. What

15:58

he was actually doing, even to this day, you can

16:00

grow a couple of plants in Adelaide and

16:02

what actually I think most people do

16:04

over there. It's a bit of an open

16:07

slather. Most people grow more than a

16:09

couple of plants. Anyway, this

16:11

guy, the main guy in Adelaide, what he

16:14

would do, he would

16:16

ring around to all these people he knew that were growing dope

16:18

and over those 15 days or whatever that were

16:25

in between trips, he

16:27

would get together about 20 pounds

16:30

of cannabis. The guy

16:32

from Melbourne would then

16:34

facilitate the fallow in Renmark. He would

16:36

come down with his truck. He

16:38

would pick up the 20 pounds of cannabis.

16:42

He would take them

16:44

to Sydney. He would drop

16:47

them off in Sydney and then

16:49

the guy in Sydney would then take some of

16:51

them to the northern beaches. What

16:54

the person in Melbourne was doing, he

16:56

would then follow up. He would take

16:58

money, pay the guy in Adelaide

17:02

and then he'd go to Sydney, collect money and

17:04

go to the northern beaches, collect money and come

17:07

back. This cycle would go on there about every

17:09

10 or 15 days. Together that

17:11

sort of intelligence, Noel, and again, I don't want

17:13

you giving away too many trade secrets, but as

17:15

you say, most of this will come out in

17:17

court cases anyway. I guess

17:19

you're checking redjoes and cows crossing borders

17:21

and trucks and what have you. The

17:23

guy that's following up collecting

17:26

money, paying, collecting money, paying, was

17:28

he under sort of physical surveillance? Was he

17:30

being followed by police? Oh

17:32

yeah. We had surveillance on him in

17:35

Melbourne. Either the surveillance in

17:37

Melbourne would take him to Adelaide or

17:39

would be met by the South Australian

17:41

surveillance at Tail and Bend or somewhere

17:43

like that. Same deal when

17:45

the truck was moving from Adelaide to

17:47

New South Wales, the

17:49

New South Wales surveillance would pick

17:52

them up at the border or somewhere near

17:54

the border and then take them

17:56

to the northern beaches. The same is when

17:58

they're taking the main target. around the place

18:00

as well. They'd either

18:02

do the whole trip depending on

18:05

manpower and availability of the

18:07

other states but yeah large

18:09

level of cooperation. A

18:11

case like this which is crossing regularly

18:14

three state borders, how does that impede

18:16

upon an investigation? Do the

18:18

South Australian cops have to stop at the

18:20

border and then they sort of pass the

18:23

baton to Victoria and yourself like how does

18:25

that work? You don't have any powers in

18:27

those other states unless you're sworn in as

18:29

a special constable in those states.

18:32

There's no impediment to you conducting inquiries

18:34

and that will not be surveillance, no

18:36

problem at all. Different

18:38

story when you start talking about listening devices

18:41

and things but then you know you need

18:43

warrants for that state or commonwealth warrants whatever

18:45

but yeah it can be a little bit

18:47

clunky but once you get in the in

18:50

the routine of it it's okay. So

18:53

now you've gathered this intelligence and obviously there's

18:55

a building up of this intelligence and then

18:57

somebody at some point makes the decision be

18:59

it you or others that

19:01

you're going to pull the trigger and

19:04

take steps towards arrest and prosecution. How

19:06

does that evolve and at what point

19:08

and what's the decision around that? What's

19:10

the trigger? What determines

19:12

that? You have to come

19:14

to a point where you actually are 100% certain as to

19:16

what's going on. So

19:19

once you work out what's exactly going on

19:21

then you go into your evidence gathering phase

19:24

and you have to gather enough evidence to

19:26

secure a conviction in court then

19:29

you could be criticized if you let it run

19:31

too long after that because what

19:33

you're doing is you're allowing you're

19:35

allowing offenses to take place. So

19:38

once you've gathered your evidence and you can show the

19:43

crimes have evidence of the

19:45

crimes then you're sort of duty bound to

19:47

wind it up shortly after that. The

19:49

arrests it was made and I think

19:52

it was you that made it was

19:54

made in Adelaide and wouldn't that involve

19:56

an extradition back to Victoria for this

19:58

individual to to charges. Yes,

20:03

of course, when you look at this job,

20:06

there are a lot of targets. There was the main

20:08

target, but there are a lot of

20:10

people coming off that. There was the main

20:12

target in Melbourne. He actually had found a

20:15

listening device in the roof of his house. But

20:18

even though he had done that, he

20:20

didn't stop him. He still, I

20:23

guess, I don't know what was in his mind, whether he

20:25

thought, hang on, I need more money to fund

20:27

a defence or something. I don't know, but he

20:29

kept going. But

20:32

he did think that the

20:34

end was near because he left

20:37

the jurisdiction, went to the

20:40

Gold Coast. So we

20:43

actually had no targets in Melbourne when

20:46

we came to make arrests. I had the truck

20:48

pulled over just before Sydney.

20:50

Two of my men went

20:53

up to the New South Wales crime department, made

20:55

the arrests, and I had two of my chaps

20:57

from the organised crime squad there with them. There

21:00

was Adelaide Police or crime department in Adelaide.

21:02

They arrested the fellow in Adelaide. A few

21:05

days later, I went over there and

21:07

applied to that fellow's expedition. So

21:10

the two guys from Renmark arrested in

21:12

New South Wales. New South Wales police

21:14

also arrested the main recipient in Sydney.

21:16

They also arrested the guy in the

21:18

Northern beaches. And

21:20

I sent another couple of detectives up

21:22

to the Gold Coast to bring the

21:24

main target and his colleague back

21:26

to Melbourne. How

21:28

did it all finish up? Did you get a win at the end?

21:31

Yeah, we got a win in the end. Committal was,

21:33

I wouldn't say it

21:36

was hotly contested, but there was

21:38

a big argument over quantum. And

21:40

quantum is where the prosecution

21:42

and the defence argue over the

21:45

size of the actual amount being

21:47

trafficked. Because we could show from,

21:49

I guess,

21:51

mainly telephone interception records

21:54

and other

21:56

paraphernalia how many trips

21:58

were undertaken. over an 18

22:01

month period. When we intercepted

22:03

them, we say, oh, well, he did

22:05

15 trips and we'd

22:07

say he's probably done 20 pounds per trip. So

22:10

you multiply that out. So

22:12

in a defense try and actually knock that

22:14

down to lessen the

22:16

gravity of the trafficking. And

22:18

of course, I was the

22:20

face of the investigation. So there are

22:22

other elements that were friends of the

22:25

Jews who considered

22:28

I was playing hardball and not

22:31

caving in to bring the quantities

22:33

down. And it became

22:35

apparent to me that there were certain

22:37

elements in Melbourne that weren't very

22:39

happy with me. The actual fact

22:41

I had nothing to do with it. I couldn't have

22:43

cared less really. I'd done my job. I don't care,

22:46

you know, whether it's 500 pound

22:49

or a hundred pound or whatever it is that's irrelevant

22:51

to me. Really, it

22:53

was actually really the lawyers that well, that

22:56

decided to dig their heels in, not me. Yeah,

22:59

as you say, once you put the brief together and

23:01

you probably appear in court to give a bit of

23:04

evidence and then your job's done and then it becomes

23:06

a bit of an arm wrestle, doesn't it? Between Crown

23:08

Prosecutors, Defense Council and one thing and another.

23:11

Did you get some custodial sentences out of it,

23:13

Noel? We did.

23:15

I think everybody got

23:18

custodial sentences, which for the

23:20

main target was, you know, looking

23:22

some ways a bit tough because he was a

23:25

day spring chicken. I think he was nearly 70 when

23:27

he went to jail, which, you know, he

23:30

did the crime. He had to do the time, unfortunately. Noel,

23:33

1990 thereabouts, it saw

23:35

the Crown Casino in

23:37

Melbourne opening its doors for the

23:40

first time and with it came

23:42

some concerns, both from the police

23:44

society and others with regards

23:47

to that. Can you just have

23:49

a chat to us about that, Noel? Yeah,

23:51

sure. I was a Detective Sergeant at

23:53

the Victorian Gaming and Vice Foote and

23:56

before I got there, they'd had a very, they'd had

23:58

a small... number of personnel there.

24:00

I think they had about three detectives working there

24:03

initially. We were actually embedded

24:05

in the casinos. I think for the government,

24:07

I think it was fear of the unknown.

24:09

There were a bit of

24:11

criticism from various circles

24:13

about the actual casino itself

24:16

being in existence. And

24:18

I think the government was quite keen to

24:20

make sure that they would do their best

24:23

to see that there were no really

24:26

serious outfalls from

24:28

the existence of the casino. One

24:30

thing it did do, I guess on a positive note,

24:32

depending on how you look at it, was

24:35

put at almost an immediate stop

24:37

to illegal gambling in

24:40

Victoria. Around

24:43

Chinatown, there was a lot of other places,

24:46

Carlton and whatever. There was a lot of

24:48

illegal gaming houses in

24:51

hotel rooms and behind

24:53

restaurants and all sorts of things. That

24:56

actually basically stopped overnight. So,

24:58

you know casinos, there's the upside, there's the glitzy

25:00

sort of, you know, what we see in all

25:03

the ads and what have you. But of course

25:05

there's an undercurrent too. It becomes like you're policing

25:07

an entity on its own. It's like you're in

25:10

a suburb type of thing with all the different

25:12

issues that police deal with. But you're doing it

25:14

all within the under the roof of

25:16

the casino. Can you give us a bit of

25:19

a flavour for some of those incidences and investigations?

25:22

I guess it was a bit

25:24

like a suburb. It was even

25:26

though we were squad detectives and

25:28

probably usually charged with investigating

25:31

more serious and I

25:34

guess more difficult

25:36

crimes to investigate. Very

25:39

much like working on a suburban CIB

25:41

division, such was the range

25:43

of the answers. A lot of

25:46

sex crimes, sexual

25:50

assaults, a lot of physical assaults,

25:52

people drinking to excess and just,

25:55

you know, even today you hear people are,

25:58

went to a party and then we all end up at the casino. know

26:00

and whatever and I guess the volume of people

26:03

was such that security there

26:06

struggled to keep up with monitoring the

26:09

level of some of the intoxication until got a

26:11

bit late and then you know the

26:13

police had to come and do

26:15

something about it. We very rarely had uniformed

26:18

police attend there.

26:20

Normally we had to attend to it ourselves. So

26:23

a lot of assaults, a lot of thefts,

26:26

assault and robs, a lot of thefts from

26:28

patrons stealing from each other or

26:31

people just taking money off the tables, taking

26:33

chips off the tables, climbing chips

26:35

that weren't theirs and every possible

26:38

scam you could think of. One

26:41

thing about it was they had very good

26:43

surveillance so we always had very good evidence

26:46

of the offenses once they'd

26:48

taken place. And of course now you

26:51

know again when we look at casinos and

26:53

we start to scrape the surface be they

26:55

in Sydney, Melbourne or anywhere. A little

26:57

bit of a magnet for organised

27:00

crime, bit of an environment to launder money and

27:02

what have you. You'd have seen

27:04

a few if I could put it sort of

27:07

quietly you know colourful Melbourne identities

27:09

coming in through the front door no

27:11

doubt and always question marks

27:13

of course over what they're doing there how much money

27:15

is changing hands. Is that something Noel that you had to

27:17

keep a bit of an eye on in those early

27:19

days? Oh we did but

27:21

I think really to tell you the truth there

27:23

were a lot of those colourful identities in

27:26

the early days. I don't

27:28

think they banned anybody straight

27:31

away they subsequently they did ban quite a

27:33

few of them and I always thought

27:35

that was a bit counterproductive actually because I used

27:37

to like to see who who was talking to

27:39

who and I don't really think look

27:42

they probably discussed criminal matters while

27:44

I was there but by and large I think

27:46

a lot of them used it as a social

27:48

outlet more than everything else it's something like a

27:50

guy where they probably felt pretty safe because

27:53

of the level of surveillance and you'd

27:55

see them on see them talking to each

27:57

other some of them a bit more astute

27:59

than others. they'd actually whisper

28:01

and they'd get close to the person they were

28:04

talking to and they'd cover their

28:06

mouth with their hand so surveillance couldn't

28:08

do any, they couldn't, they couldn't organise

28:10

any lip reading or anything like that.

28:12

Now, some of them are pretty good

28:14

but yeah, I didn't mind it actually.

28:16

I used to like the idea

28:18

of them all coming in and you could

28:20

see who was friendly with who and who

28:22

was perhaps not friendly with somebody else. Then

28:26

of course we get into the later

28:28

times when things started to turn

28:31

a bit nasty in Melbourne and Casino got

28:33

a bit more wary about who

28:35

was coming in and they started banning a lot more of

28:37

them. A lot of the

28:39

fears that I guess people didn't know what

28:41

to be frightened of and they weren't always

28:44

correct. I think money laundering was

28:46

always one of the big fears and

28:48

yet it's not just

28:51

a simple case of saying I won this money

28:53

at the casino or it's a

28:55

bit more astute than that and not that

28:58

easy. Certainly some of the money from

29:00

overseas because you got no idea where that

29:02

came from and it's paid into

29:05

accounts in Australia and yeah, big deal.

29:08

It's not really our job to follow it

29:10

up anyway because it's

29:12

crime money from another

29:15

country but there was probably a lot of that

29:17

but as far as actually

29:20

Australian money, not that easy

29:23

to, you can't just say I've had a big

29:25

win because what actually happened to anyone that I

29:28

guess has had a big win at the casino

29:30

might know that you're not given

29:32

the money, you're given a

29:34

winner's check and a winner's check is not

29:36

just an ordinary check and it's not just cash and

29:39

you have to show that you've had a winner's check to

29:41

claim a win to say you've won that money

29:43

at a casino. So

29:46

now after joining the police as a

29:48

young fresh-flaced 20-year-old back in the 70s,

29:52

you moved on from the Victorian Police 2004

29:54

with just a whisker under 30 years service.

30:00

big transition, 2004, which

30:03

direction did you go in at that point? I

30:06

went to work for another

30:08

agency in Australia. I'd been

30:12

seconded there briefly

30:14

and they

30:16

made me an offer and I had

30:19

no plans to leave the police force. That's what I

30:21

intended to do at least in my 30 years. They

30:25

were of a view that I

30:27

couldn't serve two masters so

30:29

they dug their heels in and

30:32

I had to resign from the police force. Which

30:34

wasn't really, I was

30:36

earning a lot more money when I changed

30:39

agencies but that wasn't the motivation, it

30:41

was really the change of working

30:44

environment that appealed to me, to tell you

30:46

the truth. I ended up working there

30:48

for another eight years. In

30:51

that agency, and we don't need to go into any more detail

30:53

there, they all threw to 2012 and

30:57

then you shut the door on that

30:59

aspect of your career and slowly

31:02

moved into a well-earned retirement. It

31:05

was certainly well-earned by then because I will say

31:08

that there were some very

31:10

difficult times in that second

31:13

phase of my career.

31:18

Obviously those sort of things happened at

31:20

the wrong time of your life. If I'd been 30, I

31:22

would have been probably a lot more resilient but

31:24

I was in my 50s and I

31:28

was pretty happy to call it quits at that

31:30

stage. Although my wife

31:34

observes now that for that first 12

31:36

months, I was not

31:39

fully depressed but certainly not that happy about

31:41

life because I'd come out

31:43

of such a high energy, high pressure type

31:47

lifestyle. 40 phone calls

31:49

a night, running three

31:51

or four teams of

31:56

strikes for every night, running it. just

32:00

to stop because you

32:02

think you need to probably you need

32:05

to really phase yourself out fairly

32:07

and I just stopped and

32:10

you know I thought it was I thought it was the right move but

32:12

probably not it's hard to put your finger on what

32:14

actually what the problem was I

32:16

guess it was I

32:19

guess you know if you really analyse it you might

32:21

decide you're perhaps a little bit less relevant than you

32:23

used to be you know we've all got we've all

32:25

got an ego to some degree

32:28

and the thing is too you don't you don't actually

32:30

see this you don't actually realise

32:32

it's happening other people deserve it but

32:34

you don't necessarily observe it but

32:37

these days just onward and

32:39

upward very happy with life. I

32:42

want to thank you so much for being so

32:44

open and candid in the talk here with us

32:46

today and and also to thank you so very

32:48

much for that close to

32:50

40 goodness me close to 40 years service serving

32:53

the good people of Victorian beyond great to meet

32:55

you and thank you for uh thank you for

32:57

dropping in for a chat absolutely

32:59

pleasure. Crime

33:04

Insiders Detectives is a listener original

33:06

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