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1 00:00:01.949 --> 00:00:06.660 Eric Nordhoff: Lee strobel Thank you so much for coming on the courage castit's a blessing to have you. 2 00:00:07.109 --> 00:00:09.000 Lee Strobel: appreciate that Eric great to be with you. 3 00:00:09.300 --> 00:00:23.640 Eric Nordhoff: yeah this is was it is kind of a dream come true, for me,because I have been a case for Christ, and the case for series has been a bigpart of my reading pleasure over the years, as a new Christian so. 4 00:00:24.900 --> 00:00:25.830 Eric Nordhoff: yeah yeah. 5 00:00:26.010 --> 00:00:37.290 Lee Strobel: appreciate I love hearing that you know you sit in your littleoffice pecking away at a computer and pray that's Monday, may God may use itfor good great. 6 00:00:38.370 --> 00:00:39.030 Lee Strobel: On the other end. 7 00:00:40.980 --> 00:01:01.980 Eric Nordhoff: Well, I, like you, you know you explored your faith at age 29really to try to prove it wrong I explored my faith at age 23 really but, butas a result of a bunch of seed planting and came to Christ at age 23 what's itlike for you now, after all of these years. 8 00:01:02.610 --> 00:01:04.260 Eric Nordhoff: Being a follower of Christ. 9 00:01:06.000 --> 00:01:19.140 Eric Nordhoff: Do you find yourself being able to relate to those people whomay be grew up in the church and came to Christ at an early age, or do youfind that to be unique for you, because you, you had such a differentupbringing. 10 00:01:19.770 --> 00:01:27.360 Lee Strobel: Well, I I celebrate everybody that comes to faith and seeing nowmy grandchildren come to faith, one by one. 11 00:01:27.840 --> 00:01:32.640 Lee Strobel: and Christian families and great churches and wonderful youthministries and. 12 00:01:33.090 --> 00:01:48.660 Lee Strobel: To see them come alive in their faith and to see my granddaughterabigail's Bible all marked up and underlined and notes in the margins and andand to see her enthusiasm for her relationship with with God to see you'regoing mission trips to see here. 13 00:01:50.100 --> 00:01:56.340 Lee Strobel: I have a photograph that somebody took of her praying withanother girl to receive Christ and. 14 00:01:57.480 --> 00:02:14.610 Lee Strobel: The great joy is a grandfather, so you know I know some peoplelike me, are hard headed and took me, you know, three decades to come to faithbut I celebrate those especially that came at a younger age, because theyavoided all of the. 15 00:02:16.080 --> 00:02:27.990 Lee Strobel: Not all but much of the sin that I committed during my life whenI lived as an atheist that I regret, in fact, one person that came to faithpartially through my book is evil knievel the. 16 00:02:28.020 --> 00:02:28.950 Lee Strobel: Really yeah. 17 00:02:29.580 --> 00:02:37.590 Lee Strobel: yeah the daredevil motorcyclists and he and I became friendsbefore he died and his biggest regret was not coming to faith as a youngster. 18 00:02:37.950 --> 00:02:51.090 Lee Strobel: Because he said I could live my life differently, I could I couldlive my life for God and and look what I did, and I kept telling him Robertyou know god's going to use your your story to reach people who, you may nototherwise have been able to reach but. 19 00:02:51.870 --> 00:03:01.230 Lee Strobel: But he saw how wonderful it would have been to come to faith as ayoungster and had the opportunity to live in entire life devoted to God. 20 00:03:01.590 --> 00:03:10.950 Eric Nordhoff: um well speaking of life we're talking today about I guessdeath and what happens after we die. 21 00:03:11.220 --> 00:03:24.510 Eric Nordhoff: yeah you have a movie coming out the first that I think you'veever put out in the case series of course you had the case for Christ, themovie which was really well done and and really inspiring. 22 00:03:24.810 --> 00:03:26.070 Eric Nordhoff: For me as well, but. 23 00:03:26.880 --> 00:03:33.090 Eric Nordhoff: Now we have this upcoming fathom event that's going to behappening really just before Easter. 24 00:03:33.330 --> 00:03:36.180 Eric Nordhoff: So a timely event the case for heaven. 25 00:03:37.110 --> 00:03:57.330 Eric Nordhoff: is going to be releasing Monday April 4 through Wednesday April6 people can catch that locally, wherever they are in theaters in a theaternear you tell us about the case for having the book and and then, of course,also this documentary. 26 00:03:58.530 --> 00:04:08.580 Eric Nordhoff: sort of the the making of it and the inspiration for it isbecause you're you're kind of getting on, in your life that you're consideringthis or what what was sort of the the instigator for it. 27 00:04:08.880 --> 00:04:13.920 Lee Strobel: Well, what started was an incident that happened to me about 10years ago when I almost died. 28 00:04:14.880 --> 00:04:24.030 Lee Strobel: My wife on the unconscious called an ambulance I woke up in theemergency room and the doctor looked down at me and said you're one step awayfrom a coma two steps away from die. 29 00:04:24.540 --> 00:04:33.030 Lee Strobel: And then I went unconscious again, I had a unusual medicalcondition called Hypo night tree MIA, which is a severe drop in my bloodsodium level. 30 00:04:33.330 --> 00:04:47.550 Lee Strobel: So I hover between life and death for quite a while, and so thedoctors were able to save my life in a very delicate maneuver that they had todo to save me and I tell you what that is a very clarifying experience toalmost die. 31 00:04:48.570 --> 00:04:57.240 Lee Strobel: Because when you're in that situation, nothing is more importantthan what happens when we close eyes for the last time in this world. 32 00:04:57.660 --> 00:05:04.530 Lee Strobel: And so I was a Christian at the time, I believe what the Bibleteaches about the afterlife but at the same time i've still got that skepticalgear, you know my. 33 00:05:04.830 --> 00:05:19.620 Lee Strobel: backgrounds in journalism and law and I tend to want evidence andreasons and answers, and so I launched on this investigation to try to look atwhat is the evidence that indeed, we continue to live on after our physicaldeath. 34 00:05:20.850 --> 00:05:27.180 Eric Nordhoff: Well it's one of those things that i've always considered, andI think most of the human race it's it's the great mystery. 35 00:05:27.300 --> 00:05:36.780 Eric Nordhoff: Right, how can we find evidence I you know I, I find it reallyintriguing and you as an investigative journalist and your background anddoing that. 36 00:05:37.350 --> 00:05:55.770 Eric Nordhoff: How did you go now obviously there's a lot of things mentionedin scripture about heaven and hell and what happens after we die, and ofcourse it's it's the great mystery so but, but you relied on a lot more thanthat to begin to build a case for heaven right yes. 37 00:05:56.130 --> 00:06:05.040 Lee Strobel: Right, you know the Apostle Paul said to be absent from thebodies to be present, with the Lord so there's really two aspects in Christianteaching to the afterlife The first is the intermediate state. 38 00:06:05.340 --> 00:06:18.510 Lee Strobel: That happens when we die our our our soul our spirit separatesfrom our body and we're conscious and present either in the presence of God ora believer or separated from him and hades. 39 00:06:19.140 --> 00:06:26.370 Lee Strobel: The second stage happens at the consummation of history whenJesus returns it's when we're united with our now resurrected bodies. 40 00:06:26.790 --> 00:06:34.530 Lee Strobel: When we go through final judgment and then we spend eternity in avery physical place, whether it's heaven or hell, so I wanted to know whatwait a minute. 41 00:06:34.860 --> 00:06:42.960 Lee Strobel: If the Bible says as that our spirit our consciousness, separatefrom our physical body at debt and continue to live on, is there any evidence. 42 00:06:43.320 --> 00:06:50.670 Lee Strobel: Outside the Bible for that, and so I began to investigate whatare known as near death experiences, where people are clinically dead. 43 00:06:50.940 --> 00:07:00.210 Lee Strobel: And yet they report seeing things are hearing things that theycould not have otherwise seen or her if they didn't authentically have an outof body experience. 44 00:07:00.570 --> 00:07:06.660 Lee Strobel: And so I looked at those cases where we have corroboration so,for instance, there was a woman named Maria who died in the hospital. 45 00:07:07.350 --> 00:07:15.690 Lee Strobel: And she described lady said no, I was conscious the whole timeshe said, my spirit separated from my body I kind of floated around theceiling of the hospital. 46 00:07:15.870 --> 00:07:28.740 Lee Strobel: room I watched the resuscitation efforts on my on my body andthen my spirit floated up and out of the hospital and when she was revived shesaid Oh, by the way, there's a man's tennis shoe on the roof of the hospital. 47 00:07:29.010 --> 00:07:38.790 Lee Strobel: And it's blue it's left footed there's a little were over thelittle toe and the shoelaces tucked under the heel so they go up to the roof,and they find it exactly she's tried it. 48 00:07:39.240 --> 00:07:39.690 Eric Nordhoff: This is. 49 00:07:40.080 --> 00:07:47.790 Lee Strobel: example of the kind of collaboration that indicates that indeedour consciousness does survive at least our clinical death. 50 00:07:48.570 --> 00:08:00.870 Lee Strobel: In one study they looked at 21 blind people, half of them blindsince birth and yet during this near death experiences out of body experiencethey were able to see many of them, for the first time. 51 00:08:01.140 --> 00:08:05.160 Lee Strobel: And so they watched as a resuscitation efforts were going on intheir bodies, they. 52 00:08:05.370 --> 00:08:16.290 Lee Strobel: They they they saw plants and animals for the first time andthen, when they were ultimately revived their blindness returned and it's oneresearcher said, this is medically impossible. 53 00:08:16.770 --> 00:08:27.240 Lee Strobel: I mean this is part of 900 scholarly articles published in ascientific and medical journals over the last 50 years on this topic. 54 00:08:27.840 --> 00:08:31.320 Lee Strobel: Even the Lancet, which is the famous Medical Journal in England. 55 00:08:31.740 --> 00:08:41.430 Lee Strobel: carried an analysis to show that none of the alternativeexplanations for near death experiences can fully account for this phenomenonso. 56 00:08:41.700 --> 00:08:51.780 Lee Strobel: This is a well researched area of science and clearly, I think itshows at a minimum that our consciousness does continue to live on, but what'sinteresting, especially to me. 57 00:08:52.050 --> 00:08:59.610 Lee Strobel: Is I interviewed for the movie and in my book john Burke john isa pastor of a Christian church in Santa in. 58 00:09:00.390 --> 00:09:05.970 Lee Strobel: Austin Texas, and he studied 1000 near death experiences over 30years. 59 00:09:06.240 --> 00:09:22.050 Lee Strobel: And what he learned is, if you look at the commonality of whattypically takes place in a near death experience not how people interpret itthrough their religious lens or their cultural lens but what actually takesplace, it is consistent with Christian theology. 60 00:09:22.500 --> 00:09:22.770 Eric Nordhoff: And he. 61 00:09:22.830 --> 00:09:24.930 Lee Strobel: acts as a verse by verse. 62 00:09:24.960 --> 00:09:29.100 Lee Strobel: So that that's a powerful finding so to me that is external. 63 00:09:29.160 --> 00:09:36.060 Lee Strobel: corroboration of what the Bible teaches about the afterlife thatindeed our consciousness does continue to live on. 64 00:09:36.450 --> 00:09:36.960 hmm. 65 00:09:37.980 --> 00:09:40.500 Eric Nordhoff: yeah it's very hope hope giving. 66 00:09:40.590 --> 00:09:43.230 Eric Nordhoff: To me to hear these stories, obviously. 67 00:09:44.370 --> 00:09:45.630 Eric Nordhoff: There are those. 68 00:09:45.780 --> 00:09:52.530 Eric Nordhoff: that a lot of them more on the progressive left side that willeven argue that there even is a hell. 69 00:09:53.130 --> 00:09:57.660 Eric Nordhoff: yeah i'm curious if you dove into that in your research or. 70 00:09:58.710 --> 00:09:59.130 Eric Nordhoff: kind of. 71 00:09:59.400 --> 00:10:09.600 Eric Nordhoff: yeah countered some of those arguments and maybe that's afuture book, I have no idea but i'm just curious if you have any thoughts on Iknow this was not really what the book is about, but if you're going to. 72 00:10:09.600 --> 00:10:11.220 Eric Nordhoff: Talk about heaven and hell, I would think. 73 00:10:11.910 --> 00:10:12.600 Lee Strobel: No i've into that. 74 00:10:12.930 --> 00:10:19.260 Lee Strobel: I delve into that in the book, I have two chapters on hell, and Ilook at two popular. 75 00:10:20.310 --> 00:10:28.380 Lee Strobel: Trends one is called annihilation ISM, which is the belief that,when a non believer they're essentially snuffed out of existence. 76 00:10:29.460 --> 00:10:42.420 Lee Strobel: john stott the famous evangelical leader of the 20th century cameto believe in annihilation ISM before he died it's not a heretical position Idon't think it's fair, I think you can make a really good case forannihilation ISM. 77 00:10:42.780 --> 00:10:45.360 Lee Strobel: And I don't think it's a convincing ultimately case. 78 00:10:45.390 --> 00:10:46.050 Eric Nordhoff: it's not. 79 00:10:46.080 --> 00:10:55.440 Lee Strobel: A radical position as a secondary issue but I, you can make agood case but to me it fall short night demonstrate that in the book. 80 00:10:55.980 --> 00:11:00.000 Lee Strobel: The other popular trend is universalist which is we allultimately you're saved. 81 00:11:01.080 --> 00:11:10.980 Lee Strobel: And to me that is a heretical position it's not well supported inscripture it is disputed in many passages of scripture. 82 00:11:11.280 --> 00:11:23.550 Lee Strobel: And so I don't believe in that, but I did present that case asbest I could for universalism and then said why I don't i'm not convincedpersonally that it's true so I tried to look at. 83 00:11:24.270 --> 00:11:33.030 Lee Strobel: The issue of health in the movie we actually interview, one ofthe 23% of people who have a near death experience, where they have a hellishexperience. 84 00:11:33.150 --> 00:11:49.890 Lee Strobel: Not me has a great experience we interview Howard storm, who wasan atheist, who, who, in a sense, what the hell when he died, and he describesit as being the most horrific experience that you can possibly imagine said nohorror film can even approach. 85 00:11:50.430 --> 00:11:54.120 Lee Strobel: The horror of it all and in the midst of it, he called out toJesus. 86 00:11:54.900 --> 00:12:09.450 Lee Strobel: Was rescued, and after he was ultimately revived he not onlyrenounces atheism he not only resigned his tenure position at a secularuniversity, but he became a Christian and an ordained pastor. 87 00:12:09.630 --> 00:12:11.760 Lee Strobel: and is now pastor of a little girl church. 88 00:12:12.270 --> 00:12:22.740 Lee Strobel: In transformed his life, so I think I think I think the best newsabout heaven, is it is it it's real I think the worst news about hell is thatit's real. 89 00:12:23.520 --> 00:12:25.830 Lee Strobel: And I think the greatest news of all is that. 90 00:12:25.890 --> 00:12:34.080 Lee Strobel: Jesus is open the door to have any flung open the door to heavento anyone anywhere in any culture, it comes to him in repentance and faith. 91 00:12:34.440 --> 00:12:38.460 Eric Nordhoff: yeah it is, it is really, really good news i'm so grateful forthat. 92 00:12:39.480 --> 00:12:53.820 Eric Nordhoff: So in this in this documentary there are maybe I think nine or10 different interviews or people featured maybe more than that, but tell me alittle bit about and are there any other unique stories that we should bewatching. 93 00:12:53.820 --> 00:12:54.210 For. 94 00:12:55.290 --> 00:13:03.450 Lee Strobel: You know there's one fascinating one that was my favorite andthat was an interview I did for my book with Luis Palau. 95 00:13:04.530 --> 00:13:12.570 Lee Strobel: Luis Palau one of the great evangelists of history, he shared hisfaith with a billion people during his lifetime, he was a friend of mine. 96 00:13:13.050 --> 00:13:25.290 Lee Strobel: And a hero of mine, and he was dying of stage four cancer, heknew he was going to die soon, and so I went out to Oregon I spent a day withhim and his wife, and it was the last formal interview with him before he diedand. 97 00:13:26.400 --> 00:13:42.840 Lee Strobel: So we were going to come back and shoot the video for the moviebut he died in the interim, and so in the film you hear his voice I we playthe tape of some of his observations and what he was saying, as someone whoknew that he was about to pass over into the next slide. 98 00:13:43.920 --> 00:13:47.340 Lee Strobel: But we don't have him on camera because he ultimately diedbeforehand. 99 00:13:48.180 --> 00:13:55.860 Lee Strobel: But one of the things he said that I will never ever forget, andI think it's relevant for every follower of Jesus, on the face of the planet. 100 00:13:56.460 --> 00:14:08.370 Lee Strobel: He looked at me before he died, sadly, when you get to the end ofyour life and all is said and done, you will never regret being courageous forChrist. 101 00:14:09.780 --> 00:14:17.850 Lee Strobel: And I thought wow that's powerful I mean I think being courageousfor Christ means different things to different people, I think, for somepeople, it might be to say. 102 00:14:18.570 --> 00:14:27.030 Lee Strobel: Who am I going to invite what non Christian, am I going to inviteto come with me to see this film The case for heaven because i'm telling you,it is a film that non believers will. 103 00:14:27.480 --> 00:14:40.020 Lee Strobel: resonate with we have a non believer in the film a guy whorenounced his Christian faith and he talks candidly about why he no longerbullies and what the Bible teaches we have all viewpoints represented, but Ithink that. 104 00:14:40.740 --> 00:14:49.740 Lee Strobel: The film presents a cogent a compelling and a convincing case forthe truth of the Christian teaching about the afterlife so you know. 105 00:14:50.100 --> 00:14:54.480 Lee Strobel: A form of courage might be, who I might want to take a risk andinvite. 106 00:14:54.900 --> 00:15:09.300 Lee Strobel: To come with me to see the film or to give them a copy of thebook or I even created a little booklet 64 page kind of summary of the bookcalled why believe in heaven, you can only get it at Christian book calm, butyou get them for a buck. 107 00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:12.060 Lee Strobel: And I went online I just. 108 00:15:12.360 --> 00:15:16.590 Lee Strobel: Literally bought 1800 copies of that. 109 00:15:18.240 --> 00:15:28.200 Lee Strobel: Because i'm going to give one to every student at ColoradoChristian university next week, when I speak at Chapel yeah take a risk andgive it out to someone who's not a believer. 110 00:15:28.590 --> 00:15:32.880 Eric Nordhoff: yeah I love that and I love the quote from louie. 111 00:15:32.880 --> 00:15:34.260 Lee Strobel: Plans yet powerful. 112 00:15:34.350 --> 00:15:38.700 Eric Nordhoff: you'll never regret being courageous for Christ yeah yeah yeah. 113 00:15:39.120 --> 00:15:43.080 Eric Nordhoff: Well that's that's the name of our podcast you, as you know,the courage cast. 114 00:15:43.470 --> 00:15:55.680 Eric Nordhoff: And the the founding inspiration was the book that was writtenabout the you know the top five regrets of the dying right. 115 00:15:56.700 --> 00:16:01.020 Eric Nordhoff: I don't know if you've ever read that book or heard about thearticle and and. 116 00:16:02.520 --> 00:16:08.160 Eric Nordhoff: And so it's it's really profound that he said that. 117 00:16:09.240 --> 00:16:16.620 Eric Nordhoff: And, and I hope that our listeners, who will be inspired bythis will will pick up their faith in in that way. 118 00:16:17.070 --> 00:16:21.480 Eric Nordhoff: So is there anything in the remaining couple of minutes that wehave together is there anything. 119 00:16:21.960 --> 00:16:38.850 Eric Nordhoff: That you're still not sure about i'm sensing that at the end ofthis journey at the end of the book and probably the movie the case forChrist, the case for heaven is so strong that you're you're you're prettysure, but is there anything that you're still not sure about. 120 00:16:39.270 --> 00:16:40.110 Eric Nordhoff: Well, serious. 121 00:16:40.230 --> 00:16:43.170 Lee Strobel: let's be honest, nobody wants to go through the process of dying. 122 00:16:43.710 --> 00:17:01.620 Lee Strobel: yeah process it's my mom, who was a strong believer went throughabout with cancer that was very difficult before she passed Jesus helped herthrough that and he promises to do that, to be with us, but nobody wants to gothrough that, and you know we don't want to leave behind loved ones. 123 00:17:03.390 --> 00:17:12.930 Lee Strobel: So let's be honest about that and and bring that to God and sayi'm wrestling with this helped me to get through this and Jesus will answerthat prayer. 124 00:17:13.320 --> 00:17:13.800 So. 125 00:17:14.970 --> 00:17:25.860 Lee Strobel: But that's reality that's reality it's it's nobody wants to gothrough that process itself even Jesus in the garden 70 said, you know if it'spossible take this cup from me. 126 00:17:26.250 --> 00:17:36.870 Lee Strobel: yeah so but that's alright, because I think the evidence for theafterlife is so powerful and so persuasive that it's almost like having avacation on the calendar. 127 00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:44.640 Lee Strobel: Now you know if you're at work and things are hiring your bossesbreathing down your neck you got all this work to do and project deadlines. 128 00:17:44.820 --> 00:17:53.010 Lee Strobel: But if you've got a vacation on your calendar two months fromnow, and you're going to go to maui for three weeks it helps you get throughthe President difficulties. 129 00:17:53.250 --> 00:17:56.880 Lee Strobel: And when you're a follower of Christ and you've got heaven onyour calendar. 130 00:17:56.910 --> 00:17:58.290 Eric Nordhoff: You don't know where eternity. 131 00:17:58.560 --> 00:18:15.090 Lee Strobel: for eternity it's going to come it's it helps you deal with thecurrent difficulties of life because you're saying I know this is our God, Ineed your help, but in the meantime I know this eternity is coming, and thenthat gives me courage for the President. 132 00:18:15.960 --> 00:18:26.550 Eric Nordhoff: i'm reading a book right now called the rest of the Gospel andin there, it talks about the two parts one is obviously salvation we get thatright, but we don't get the living part right living now. 133 00:18:26.910 --> 00:18:34.710 Eric Nordhoff: With the understanding of the Gospel maybe, what is it whatwould you say in one minute or so that we have left, would you say is the. 134 00:18:35.820 --> 00:18:41.100 Eric Nordhoff: The recipe for living life now, knowing that we have heaven tolook forward to is. 135 00:18:41.160 --> 00:18:42.180 Eric Nordhoff: is having here now. 136 00:18:43.770 --> 00:18:52.200 Lee Strobel: Jesus said in Matthew Chapter five in the great sermon ofhistory, the sermon on the Mount he said I want you to be to live lives arelike salt and light light. 137 00:18:52.770 --> 00:19:03.030 Lee Strobel: and other words like salt and make people thirst for God lightthe light that shine god's message of hope and grace and love and justice andeternal life that shine that message in the dark. 138 00:19:03.030 --> 00:19:04.050 Lee Strobel: Areas of despair. 139 00:19:04.410 --> 00:19:13.500 Lee Strobel: And what I would encourage all of us to add, is the question howcan I be stronger salt and brighter light with my life in the days that I haveremaining. 140 00:19:14.370 --> 00:19:27.360 Lee Strobel: that's my prayer that God would use me more powerfully to tellother people this good news that there is hope there is redemption there's aparty waiting for them in heaven, the door is open. 141 00:19:27.750 --> 00:19:28.560 Lee Strobel: yeah walk through. 142 00:19:28.800 --> 00:19:30.630 Lee Strobel: Because of what Jesus has done for us. 143 00:19:30.840 --> 00:19:32.460 Eric Nordhoff: yeah well. 144 00:19:33.510 --> 00:19:42.120 Eric Nordhoff: Lee strobel best selling author ord winning author of the casefor series the case for heaven movie you can find all about it. 145 00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:56.700 Eric Nordhoff: The the fathom events you'll learn more about that at the casefor heaven movie calm and i'll put all the relevant links that you mentionedtoday in our podcast interview Thank you so much for taking time with thecourageous Community today. 146 00:19:57.090 --> 00:19:59.130 Lee Strobel: I appreciate that thanks so much for having.