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1:02

conversations with tyler.com. Hello!

1:07

Everyone and welcome back to conversations

1:09

with Tyler today. I'm very happy

1:11

to be chatting with Benjamin Moser.

1:14

And Benjamin Moser has no title.

1:16

he is a writer. He is

1:18

an author of a very recent

1:20

book which I liked very very

1:22

much. That book is called the

1:24

Upside Down World Meetings with Dutch

1:27

Masters. Benjamin is probably best known

1:29

for his purely surprise winning biography

1:31

of Susan Sontag and he also

1:33

has the best known English language

1:35

biography of the Brazilian author. Clarice

1:38

Spectre and he has a home page

1:40

where he writes on many disparate topics.

1:42

Whatever comes to mind for him. Benjamin

1:44

welcome. Thank. You.

1:47

Your. Book on Dutch, Are it. Was.

1:49

Vermeer Catholic. He.

1:51

Was a catholic. But. Not

1:54

originally. He. Converted.

1:57

Yeah. Apparently he did convert. He was from

1:59

a proud of the family, but like a

2:01

lot of families at that time, It

2:04

wasn't a there wasn't a clear dividing line because

2:06

a lot of times you would have people in

2:08

the same family who and have some of them

2:10

would have gone over the protestants and some of

2:12

the wouldn't. Does.

2:15

He has Catholic paintings. Yes,

2:17

He does. And they're They're his worst

2:19

paintings actually. There's. One in

2:21

the Met in New York mean allegory of

2:23

the Catholic faith for example. Or that's the

2:26

big one. It's kind of his life really

2:28

bad painting or not. Agree painting. I think

2:30

it's because what we like Vermeers to be

2:32

indirectly and we we kind of like the

2:34

suggestion. That kind of. The. Hint

2:37

of something going on. Disorders. Sexiness.

2:40

Of their. That. Glance

2:42

the gays. And. Not.

2:44

Being. Beaten over your head, With.

2:46

All this kind of. Overwrought

2:49

symbolism. At least

2:51

that's my impression. That. Isn't the artist

2:53

painting in some ways a Catholic painting and

2:56

that's a great painting. It's probably Vermeers best

2:58

work. Which. One to

3:00

artist painting. Oh right on has an

3:02

ad in the background with the seventeen

3:04

provinces some the century before. Isn't that

3:06

some kind of nostalgia for a distant

3:08

Catholic past? Or.

3:10

Not no, not necessarily. I mean, actually,

3:12

I was. if I can drop a

3:14

name. I got to go to the

3:16

Royal Palace in the Hague the other

3:18

day. I'd never been there before actually,

3:21

and the had that not exactly the

3:23

same map on the wall, but it

3:25

was a very close relative of that

3:27

map. Where. The country is kind of

3:29

on the side so where you have. Where. You

3:31

would be used to having north on the path you have

3:33

north on the. right? Side and

3:35

it was thrilling to see it and I. Interior:

3:38

It looks just like that. I don't think

3:40

it's a Catholic pinning. I mean it's a

3:42

it's a paying that has a lot of

3:44

symbolism and a lot of allusions to to

3:47

literature and art, but not necessarily Catholic and

3:49

require a lot of people Protestants would have

3:51

done. How do you count

3:53

for? the fact is far as I can tell,

3:56

Vermeer was not extremely well known until the late

3:58

nineteenth century. This epic, as it was. To

4:00

see them or because the people

4:02

didn't get it. While.

4:05

It's always result of that a both. I

4:07

mean, there's only thirty five from years he

4:09

dies, least forty three, so there's not really.

4:11

He has eleven or twelve children, so there's

4:14

not really that much time for him to

4:16

make that. The paintings are also bought up

4:18

mostly by one guy who has his neighbor.

4:21

Who. Had something like twenty of them

4:23

in his house. So yeah, this was

4:25

kind of a local favorite. I think

4:27

that. He does get

4:29

rediscovered like a lot of the Dutch

4:31

painter skip be accidentally to that don't

4:34

Get Rediscovered and that's Rembrandt and Young

4:36

Stain. Everybody else has some story about

4:38

this and and you know, paintings disappeared

4:40

into people's houses. You. Didn't have

4:43

museums you didn't have. Public

4:45

places really except for churches and in

4:47

the Netherlands. The Touches didn't have very

4:49

much art because they had. Lacked.

4:52

It in their Taliban like. Movement.

4:56

Of a kind of class him in the late sixteenth century.

4:58

So. Yeah it, and. That

5:01

it just kind of vanished into the ether.

5:05

Did you see the degree? me or so in

5:07

Amsterdam last year? It did the

5:09

got tickets. What did you learn from isn't

5:11

half as great? You've. Lived there

5:13

over twenty years. You already were studying the

5:16

chart for the book. What? Did

5:18

you learn from the South per se? For.

5:20

I think I learned to the so I'd

5:22

see all the paintings because most of them

5:24

are except for one. there's one that's in

5:26

Japan, but since this kind of copy of

5:28

an Italian painting that I've never seen. So.

5:32

I think seen them altogether. You see the

5:34

break in Vermeer. You. See he goes

5:36

on these very big format to the beginning of

5:38

his career. Their berg like the one in Dresden

5:40

or the One and you know that the early.

5:43

And if he wrote from years So there

5:45

is this question about from year. Which.

5:47

Is what happens to him. Oscillator.

5:50

His life. The. Only paid for about twenty

5:52

years. There's. A Really. Big.

5:55

Break in the style. About halfway through,

5:57

so he paces big. Very.

5:59

Our. The oracle mythological role as his paintings and

6:02

then all of a sudden they sink into

6:04

the a little bitty paintings that are the

6:06

famous for mirrors you know to girl with

6:08

a pearl earring or the little scenes of

6:10

people wanna and a little table. With.

6:12

The window. Those paintings look

6:14

really different. You. Can see it's

6:16

the same painter. But is actually

6:18

a really big break. It's interesting that during

6:21

World War Two, I tell the story of

6:23

the book as well. This. Was

6:25

at a lucky you know that invited

6:27

a clever force her. Because.

6:30

The question of how do you go from a

6:32

to be is really interesting and from you. So

6:34

this forger named Hans on me for who was

6:36

a kind of Hitler ask? we know me Hitler

6:38

was an art school dropout. you know he didn't

6:40

really. Wasn't. Quite town and enough

6:42

to make it and he was quite embittered

6:44

by the end Hunt for mavens also if

6:47

you thought he was just as good as

6:49

any old masters. So he starts paying stay

6:51

for mears that are supposed to fill in

6:53

this gap between the and be. In

6:55

their tremendously successful I'm asked by the

6:57

end of World War Two, he own

7:00

something like Sistine Country Estates and he

7:02

owns sixty something houses in the center

7:04

of Amsterdam from he made. Resilience,

7:08

And they were all sake. And. Ever. If

7:10

you see him now and you can see them, some

7:13

of them are so on. Display. In

7:15

Museums. You. Think you've gotta be

7:17

kidding me right? This is just totally

7:19

ridiculous. But it makes you can wonder

7:21

about what do you actually see when you see

7:23

a Vermeer? You see a famous name. Because.

7:26

Often you see. A

7:29

huge line. The website that crosses

7:31

into the people who flew in

7:33

from Bangkok and Rio to see

7:35

the stuff. And. You.

7:38

Know you're already kind of prepared to

7:40

see something that isn't really there. A.

7:43

Similar. If I can go

7:45

on a. But. I knew your

7:47

heterodox person. May. Be a like this comparison

7:49

but. In In Islam. There's

7:53

a same as cliche. But

7:55

every Muslim will tell you that that one

7:57

of the miracles of the Koran. Is

7:59

that? It has. it's the perception of it

8:01

style. The. It's so beautiful,

8:03

it so elegant. He could only have been

8:06

composed by divine inspiration, er, by God himself.

8:08

Now the thing about this is really funny

8:10

is that. Yours. If you're

8:12

a Muslim and you grow up hearing

8:14

the koran, you're so used to hearing

8:16

it your entire life. If you're at

8:18

it every occasion, you know, memorized often.

8:21

A lot of you know really pious Muslims

8:23

have memorized the entire thing. You're prepared to

8:25

think it's beautiful. And so when you see

8:27

Vermeer, You're. Prepared to think this is

8:30

most fabulous thing in the world. This is so

8:32

rare Dudley thirty five it was the you know,

8:34

the only time, if ever less. You

8:36

know this collection and France that

8:38

nobody ever gets to see. You're.

8:41

Prepared to see something. By.

8:43

This legend than this this name. And.

8:46

It makes it very hard to actually see it. So

8:48

when you see the sake for me as you say,

8:50

come on, That's ridiculous. But if you

8:52

try to see it without the perfume,

8:55

It. Becomes a real talent. How

8:57

his Rembrandt So productive? Will.

9:00

He got to be quite old first of

9:02

all, by the standards of at the Dutch

9:04

he he he was sixty three when he

9:06

died. And as you

9:08

know, the book. Why these people? diner

9:10

twenties, thirties, in a Vermeer dies at

9:12

forty three. So Rembrandt get the whole

9:14

extra generation of work. He. Also

9:16

though was. Just. One

9:18

of these obsessive creators and a

9:21

kind of a volcano. You know

9:23

it's it's. it's, It's

9:25

completely. Dismayed, When I

9:27

came to this country and I was a kid. And

9:30

I would see the early Rembrandt's and the museums

9:32

here. I realize he

9:34

was younger than I was. You know

9:36

his. Are you payments? Hannibal masterpieces. And.

9:39

I was sitting here are trying to write some

9:41

article that wouldn't get turned down by some terrible

9:43

magazine and an even one right for you know

9:45

a he was painting these campuses that were like

9:48

the anatomy lesson in the Hague in earnest. These.

9:51

These. Incredibly famous paintings. You.

9:54

Know I and I think he does as I say

9:56

somewhere in the book and mean this is kind of

9:58

a refill it and a little bit but he basically

10:00

the eyes and hundred is evil. He

10:02

goes: he was an obsessive driven

10:04

creator. And and that's why

10:06

he died in front that you have. He

10:08

also died very poor and and and mostly

10:10

forgotten. You. Think Rembrandt prints

10:12

are still underpriced. As you may know, there

10:15

was a London auction have quite a few

10:17

of them a few months ago and many

10:19

went for to access reacts the estimates. Yeah,

10:22

my, aren't Rembrandt prince? Just totally unaffordable.

10:24

They're very good. Many. Of them.

10:27

People. Don't seem to care anymore about are

10:30

unaffordable for me. I doubt if that's true.

10:32

I'm not trying to inquire into your personal

10:34

finances, but some of the lesser priced ones

10:37

I think you could afford. Will.

10:39

You have different states you know like see you

10:41

have the first, the original press harassing made by

10:44

Rembrandt as his lifetime and and you have the

10:46

plates that are kind of time afterwards and or

10:48

or later on and are a little bit fuzzy

10:50

here and there are a little bit. But.

10:52

I think you know this was always

10:54

people collected Rembrandt for a lot of

10:57

reasons. The Dutch collected him later really

10:59

and are obsessive Rembrandt collectors who actually

11:01

would be a good books for someone

11:03

to write. About. The collectors and from

11:05

brand to some of them are completely. Bonkers.

11:08

In and obsessive like. Like

11:10

like. A lot of collectors and. You.

11:13

Know now I say I don't know if

11:15

you followed the auctions this week at Christie's

11:17

in Southern East. Some of the old master

11:19

ones I looked at. Her. So the

11:21

top cop at the top of that hop? Is.

11:24

Very very expensive as going for three or four times.

11:26

Yes to it. But. Have for the

11:28

paintings are not being sold. So.

11:30

That means that. Whereas. You

11:32

know with these contemporary art to do have this

11:35

totally hideous looking stuff that sell for fifty million

11:37

dollars and it you think like. I

11:39

for fifty million dollars you can buy a

11:41

lotta stats paintings. You can buy paintings from

11:43

the greatest masters. You know what you

11:46

see is that that the kind of scholarly

11:48

approach the painting, that that kind of what

11:50

the front cover amateur you know the person

11:52

to person does out of love and hoops

11:54

who doesn't have study and on of historical

11:56

scholarship and a lot. Those. People are

11:58

kind of disappearing. And so no

12:00

prints and drawings are the ultimate

12:02

like nerd. Satan.

12:05

In the art world. That's for people who

12:07

really know what they're doing. Her really? scholarly.

12:10

Because you don't really get to hang I you know

12:12

you can hang a drawing on your wall, but like

12:15

it doesn't it doesn't have the. When. I

12:17

called. I mean and it's not my phrase than

12:19

the book I say wall power. It's not like

12:21

having a bit Picasso and your wall that every

12:23

basics wow. In. A You really have to.

12:26

Have. Gone to grad school in art history to

12:28

really know. What all the stuff is? of

12:31

that stuff is getting so maybe. If

12:33

If Is educational standards continue to collapse by

12:36

the time I'm a little bit older, The.

12:38

Prices will also collapse and I can afford

12:41

them. So you think the

12:43

growing size of homes and walls and

12:45

sofas has hurt the market value of

12:47

a lot of the chart? He.

12:50

Looks better in a small home, right? Well.

12:53

I don't know. I was just reading

12:55

Edith Wharton story. Don't ask me what's

12:58

one cause I forgot which one. But

13:00

Edith Wharton refers to Dutch paintings sisters

13:02

nineteen Hundred or something as kind of

13:05

a typical. Fellow. Aussie

13:07

expensive thing that these billionaires on Fifth

13:09

Avenue would have in their huge mansions.

13:12

But gonna sit and you do have a

13:14

lot of Dutch paintings are quite massive. But.

13:17

You know, always see them because they're.

13:20

Turned storage a lot of them. And. Museums.

13:22

So. Maybe if you want to build a

13:25

huge But Manson somewhere you know in

13:27

suburban. Houston. Or somewhere like that.

13:29

You. Can drag something out other. A

13:33

basement. Who

13:35

would be a Dutch artist who is good?

13:37

but when you see them altogether in the

13:39

form of a single artist exhibit you think

13:41

ass this actually pretty boring. Or

13:44

that's a sad. Fact. That

13:46

there's actually more of them than you think. Most.

13:49

Of them I would say I mean I like grew

13:51

his style i like then guns but if I were

13:54

to see fifty sixty together. I.

13:56

Would start walking rapidly through the rooms I

13:58

suspect and nodding my head and. They're all

14:00

nice. What? Loosing as you

14:02

know, Dutch art is for houses. For.

14:04

Cutting back to your At Manson that you're building and

14:07

suburban. You. Know Virginia. Ducks.

14:10

Ducks paintings are for people who have like ten

14:12

or fifteen paintings on the law. And

14:14

they would have different people and different artists

14:16

and you know in a maybe a few same

14:18

people but they weren't really like or if it's

14:21

true I think I seen in the book

14:23

that. If you go through

14:25

Dutch galleries and museums. Because

14:27

of twenty different rooms and actually try to

14:29

look at all the pictures you're gonna get

14:31

completely bored by the end of. Because.

14:33

That is Not the way they're meant to be. Look that.

14:36

But. You know for me when I

14:38

first came to this country and I started looking

14:40

at them the more I looked the more rewarding

14:42

and got And Rostow you mention. That's.

14:44

One I would actually have to. I'd have to

14:46

stand up for him fanboy, and maybe not. But

14:49

you know and then you have some of them that are just. Not.

14:52

Everybody gets. Not

14:55

everybody is well served by over exposure.

14:57

And. Adding to this truths Humans in general you

14:59

know like some people are fun to meet

15:02

for i dinner once but you want to

15:04

marry them? There's. A few you want

15:06

to marry I mean like and some of them

15:08

are just tragic. Unite the on Levens who is

15:10

Rembrandt's. Best. Friend Sauce.

15:13

Frenemy. Growing up. If

15:15

you see too many of his paintings, you

15:17

actually get almost disgusted by them. It's

15:20

more than just boring. It's like. Bros.

15:23

After a while. But. If you see

15:25

one or two that we would think wow this is great. Maybe.

15:29

Would challenge the premise that why the

15:31

stature? It's become so boring by the

15:33

early eighteenth century. Maybe even sooner. Oh

15:35

well, this is not. see I would.

15:37

How's the premise? If you ever want

15:40

to. Darken the door of this. Nation:

15:43

I can take use of. Absolutely

15:45

beautiful places are built. The eighteenth

15:47

century was beautiful paintings and beautiful

15:49

interior design which isn't always preserve

15:51

in the seventeenth century but as

15:53

quite a lot of it and

15:55

it's very decorative. It's not

15:57

quite the heroic thing. But. You know

15:59

by the end. Golden Age which is traditionally thought

16:01

to be sixteen Seventy Two, which is one.

16:04

In. Overmyer has to move on with a mother in law

16:06

and. You. Know things aren't going very well.

16:08

the country get invaded. The. Economy

16:10

collapses and and and then this

16:12

whole generation dies. But you

16:15

know, Up to the present

16:17

day, the dots were always good

16:19

act visual stuff to good architects.

16:21

They're good designers. You know, they make like

16:23

that weird coffee pot that cost four hundred

16:25

dollars and you're thinking like, why am I

16:28

spending for an awesome coffee pots but actually

16:30

like somebody thought about how to put a

16:32

screw in there so that the coffee comes

16:34

on the exact right way, you know there's

16:36

something kind of the they are. They were

16:38

always this and so on the eighteenth century,

16:40

they continue in. In the nineteenth century, there's

16:42

a series of very great artists, culminating with

16:44

and go. Enough

16:46

so it's if there's more continuity in

16:48

and people. But. Post

16:50

world war two.chart sore I can

16:53

tell seems terrible. Or don't

16:55

you agree? Not designs, right? Not

16:57

furniture. He had actual paintings.

17:00

Of. It's not terrible. I mean it. And you

17:03

know that that's always. They're good at photography,

17:05

they aren't. There are some very good painters.

17:07

It's not really my thing, so it's not

17:09

really the thing that I'm gonna. Die.

17:11

On the barricade for this cause. but

17:14

you know, in and up to Mondrian

17:16

into style and resolve. Those are pretty

17:18

interesting. Does. Are pretty interesting Hardest I

17:20

would much rather live in a huge. Beautiful.

17:23

Eighteenth century house on one of the reversed.

17:26

And live in a super modernist house. But the

17:28

ducks? you know they were good architects and good

17:30

designers. Does. Mondrian still look fresh

17:32

to you or have you seen it on

17:34

too many shopping bags so to speak? Oh,

17:37

way too many. but we're going out so

17:39

I wasn't. you trust and what? I didn't

17:42

realize. To. Mondrian. It's also he

17:44

dies in New York, so he's presented

17:46

as an American ellie some museum labels and

17:48

maybe that's born American Tanner. And.

17:50

You see him next to all these modernist

17:52

painters from all over the world, including now

17:55

like as if he's gone to the Moma

17:57

lately and seen the new hang of the

17:59

modern dollars. What? Are they

18:01

have like the big names of Rothko and

18:03

Caso and Mondrian and now they're next to

18:05

a lot of Latin Americans and maybe some

18:08

people from the Middle East and from Eastern

18:10

Europe, so it's kind of all mixed up.

18:12

It. When. You can be who trust

18:14

you? See that money on actually really comes on

18:16

this study? And. That sort of style.

18:19

It's very typical of and very specific place

18:21

in time. What?

18:23

I would say stress about Mondrian If you ever

18:25

get to go to the Hague and get to

18:27

go to the it's now called the. Art

18:30

museum Easy hottest municipal museum until

18:33

like. Last. Week it was called

18:35

the Commence Museum. Is that right? Yeah for made

18:37

him seem that some minutes. Yeah, forgive my and

18:39

now the hall Yeah it's called the what are

18:41

it's occurrence museum. It's just the art museum. Heard.

18:44

I. How I'm getting that right? Anyway, it has

18:46

a new name, but it's an old modern museum.

18:49

And it has all are a lot

18:51

of the early Montreal's which are absolutely

18:53

beautiful. And that is surprising because you

18:55

would never think that he was. Going.

18:59

In this direction. That's. One of

19:01

my favorite museums in the world. And

19:03

how you see the expression is in

19:05

turn into Cubism and and pure abstraction.

19:07

Phenomenal. The Villa you can a like

19:09

an art history textbook that you can

19:11

actually see. It's like walking through something.

19:13

You. Understand how it off. Where. It

19:16

comes from. Why? Is Dutch fiction

19:18

so hard to read over time? Well.

19:20

I could. I could. I could give you

19:22

an hour on that. But. I'll try

19:24

to give you a couple minutes. There's. One thing

19:27

that is really a characteristic. so we talk

19:29

about the design and that part of the

19:31

visual stuff. For. Some of the

19:33

language is not only an unfamiliar

19:35

language to most foreigners, but it's

19:37

also a language that has suffered

19:40

quite a lot of modifications in

19:42

terms of spelling and for cobbler

19:44

so. If we reese like and

19:46

retain for Edith Wharton, that doesn't sound that

19:48

We can tell. it's not written last week,

19:51

you know, But it's. The. Language

19:53

is totally. Transparent.

19:56

And. That's not true and Dutch and

19:58

that's one thing that inside. Somebody

20:00

told me I hope this is a true

20:02

speaking of the decline and fall of everybody's

20:04

civilization. You. Can't actually assign

20:06

a book from before World War Two

20:08

to any thoughts high school class because

20:11

I just wonder stand it. Is

20:13

there any book he would want to assign? Rifle.

20:17

Ammo will. The classic tradition of

20:19

this country's linguist is gone people

20:21

just. Not. Only don't.

20:24

Bother. To read it, they're convinced that they can't

20:27

read it. This is totally Not true, By the way.

20:29

I mean that it is like there are some spelling.

20:32

Things. And but you know if you're

20:34

minimally literate person? You.

20:36

Can read a book for making thirty five. It's not.

20:39

But but the kids won't read it. you know?

20:41

So my friends who professors and. And

20:43

high school teachers starts in. I really

20:45

struggle with us. Besides.

20:47

Your partner, Arthur Taping. Who else

20:49

should people read in that section?

20:52

Harry Militias are. Really?

20:54

Found Forgiven or my from has the A

20:56

since I'm glad you mentioned Arthur. He's a

20:58

great writer We met actually because he his

21:01

first novel which is called a too hard

21:03

to cause he blotchy toxic on the black

21:05

man with the white hart and and ducks

21:07

but that was considered to. Racially.

21:10

Charged in America even though it was a

21:12

quote from a nineteenth century letter. It's

21:15

about to ask. And princes here given as a

21:17

gift to the King of the Netherlands. And eighteen,

21:19

Thirty seven. I have actually never

21:21

read. Write. A salad although

21:23

a friend of mine as is. Has

21:26

translated that. Moolah. This is

21:28

a great writer mean of he was really

21:30

somebody that that. I really enjoyed

21:32

reading when I first got His Country and the

21:34

New York Review Classics as a book. Called.

21:37

I think it's of Amsterdam stories. It's by

21:39

someone called Mosquito, which is a pseudonym. It's

21:41

like a hundred pages long. And

21:43

it's basically the only thing he ever wrote.

21:46

It's a some stories about some kids can hang

21:48

out in this. Bad neighborhood

21:50

and about eighty ninety. And that I

21:53

thought was one of the best books I've ever read since one

21:55

of those. Miracle. Things.

21:58

That that. Some. The wrote one

22:00

book. Dutch. Literature is

22:03

very rich and three old. There's a lot

22:05

of it and it goes back. All.

22:07

The Way into the Middle Ages, Deep into

22:09

The Militants. What's you? Favorite Touch movie. Will.

22:12

Actually something I think you can send

22:14

you to do. I meant in my

22:16

book is called.to life long list. Which.

22:19

Is a documentary I saw years ago

22:21

about how. Filling.

22:23

In the water. For. This

22:25

country is a delta. It's built that

22:27

that the land as it's you know it's it's

22:29

not always people think it's it was all dried.

22:32

It was being drained. It wasn't all necessarily

22:34

drained, but the thing as it seeks the

22:37

topic, I keep filling it up so that

22:39

doesn't sink into the water. Which.

22:41

Is not going to go well by the way

22:43

to to in parentheses messy years gonna be. Over

22:46

with Smith the global warming. But.

22:48

as this land gets filled up more

22:51

and more. The. Water that

22:53

was on the surface. Three Salchow water.

22:55

It's not deepwater Said shallow water. And.

22:58

It reflects light. Onto. The

23:00

clouds. So it's a cloudy country. Northern.

23:03

Depressing. Bray. Weather. But.

23:06

It has this amazing like that when you see the

23:08

old landscape paint he really can see. Before

23:10

when there was a lot more water. it

23:12

reflected more light and it was more radiant.

23:15

And. This. Movie. So.

23:18

Against com touch light and presets on

23:20

you tube. It shows

23:22

how that process went and how. How.

23:24

The continuous darkened. And. How this

23:26

is reflected in the painting. I thought it was sent

23:28

past it. And it was very kind

23:30

of wank. For.

23:32

The subject. But. It's

23:35

true, the country. It. Has warmed

23:37

up in my time here. But

23:39

it's also if you look at the light

23:42

in the old paintings, you really notice the

23:44

difference. How

23:46

much do you feel you're living and what

23:48

is still ultimately a Calvinist country or not?

23:52

It's a cliche. like they always say

23:54

it like every time somebody is a

23:56

little bit uptight or conservative or doesn't

23:58

not as fun. That's a out

24:00

because you're such a Calvinist. I mean

24:02

it's It has a heritage of of

24:04

of. Communism. But don't forget

24:06

a half the country's Catholic. Sixty.

24:09

Percent it was always about fifty fifty.

24:11

So the idea that if it's not

24:13

a purely protestant country like Scandinavia or

24:15

something. It was always a very

24:17

mixed country. for silly culturally you it's It's

24:20

always been right in the middle of the

24:22

three biggest countries in Europe and its managed

24:24

to keep. Both.

24:27

Open to those to the world while

24:29

also being it's own thing. The.

24:31

Confidence think I mean as is, don't. And

24:35

never even really know. And that means

24:37

Calvin is a very dark very I'm.

24:40

Terrifying. Few of. Of.

24:43

God and. The. World. And

24:46

mankind. And I don't

24:48

necessarily feel this is a very dark

24:50

concern. I. See some destroyed facts about

24:52

the Netherlands today, and maybe you can make

24:54

sense of them for me to in a

24:57

kind of simple unified theory. So.

24:59

Drug use and sex work there.

25:01

More legal in the Netherlands and in

25:04

most other places, right? It's a longstanding

25:06

history of toleration, which you could even

25:08

say is unparalleled. And

25:11

yet in the latest election, Geert Wilders

25:13

takes the greatest share of the vote

25:15

people claim as a February Twenty Twenty

25:17

Four. If there's no coalition formed and

25:19

another election were needed, he might take

25:21

even more of the vote. How does

25:23

this all fit together? Explain it to

25:25

me. And outside of. That's

25:27

a great question that that I need to unpack a

25:29

little bit. To try to

25:32

maybe I explain it. It's. True

25:34

that will. There's one the selection, winning

25:36

an election, and a Dutch system that

25:38

has. Gazillions. Of party. I mean,

25:40

I don't even know the names of the parties anymore. Because

25:43

everybody liked best seats in the party and

25:45

and they start a new parliament, somebody dies

25:47

and and they didn't I mean it's really

25:49

very complicated, but the fact is that builders

25:51

only got about. I think sixteen

25:53

or seventeen percent of up. So. That

25:56

means that he five percent roughly of the

25:58

Dutch did not vote for him. That

26:00

I mean it's a big result, but it's

26:02

so. You know it's a minority. The

26:05

idea that social tolerance of

26:07

things like. Drugs.

26:09

And prostitution of things like that?

26:12

I. Mean this is I think a lot

26:14

of countries including our country have started

26:17

understand that. Yeah. I was. First

26:19

of all, you'll have your in Washington D C. Like

26:21

how hard is it? Ticketed Joy or a hooker And

26:23

Washington you know it's not that hard. And

26:25

it never has minute, hard, It's.

26:27

Just as you know that they. Wanted.

26:30

To regulate that and so.his reputation for

26:32

new have free free wheeling. Place.

26:35

I. Think they really just wanted attacks. It. And.

26:37

That's it's But even even so, I mean

26:40

as I'm sure you also know the cocaine

26:42

market in the United States is saturated. So.

26:45

The cartels are pushing lot of cocaine

26:47

into Europe right now. Particular.

26:50

Through the Port of Rotterdam. And. So.

26:52

Even. Though he has these laws here,

26:54

they're quite power and as the stuff

26:57

there is a real terrifying thing happening

26:59

now. Where. People are even saying

27:01

that's becoming a narco state a me. It's true

27:03

people are getting killed in a way that didn't

27:05

happen before. I think every society

27:07

tries to secure our how to regulate things

27:10

and how to keep. The. Side

27:12

of things under control and and easily sales

27:14

in different ways. I mean the real glory

27:16

of of Holland. That. Is part

27:18

of the seventeenth century. Story is that.

27:21

They were much more religiously.

27:24

And. Socially tolerant. In. The seventeenth

27:26

century than a place in the world. That.

27:29

Doesn't mean it was perfect. I mean if you

27:31

read the story of what happens to Spinoza, would

27:33

have missed a lot of other people in it

27:35

was not a completely free country. By.

27:38

Any means. I mean you know this was a

27:40

country and something century where. Like.

27:42

If he denied the existence of the holy

27:45

trinity, you could get beheaded. And.

27:47

That was better than anywhere else.

27:49

So. It's a kind of country that.

27:52

Yeah. Me: I think you know they're They're losing

27:54

their minds in the same way that everybody else

27:56

is. just a little bit of a delayed reaction.

27:59

Politically. What?

28:01

Makes the Easter Netherlands special. Would you

28:03

try to talk people into visiting there?

28:06

Aren't him funny? Make a Netherlands. Guess.

28:10

I. Want to get talk him into going? I

28:12

mean it's nice, it's rural. You know it's it's

28:14

not. I don't think new your. I

28:17

think the real pretty and we a real.

28:20

Fascinating. Part of. The.

28:23

Netherlands has never really the countryside. You know it's

28:25

it's it's you couldn't go to Italy and not

28:27

want to see the hills of Tuscany in a

28:29

you wouldn't wanna go to a lot of places

28:31

that not see the rural landscape but here it's

28:33

not so exciting. But there are quite a lot

28:35

of towns in the eastern other ones that are

28:37

they're very pretty. I have to say I'm at.

28:40

I've become a worse tourists and I've been here

28:42

so long I used to go down the train

28:44

and go for that. some. You.

28:46

Know. Nunnery that

28:48

made special. Honey

28:50

or something. Every. Weekend and now I

28:52

never do anything like that. If

28:55

you're trying to sell some on on living in

28:57

New Trust. How would you make

28:59

the case? It's

29:01

the perfect city. Is. What

29:04

I would say is the most ideal place I've

29:06

ever lived as let your for on time. It.

29:08

Is kind of like Brooklyn. The

29:11

sunset. It's about the same

29:13

distance as he go from Midtown Manhattan

29:16

to Brooklyn. You. Have the same

29:18

distance. you know. it's like forty forty five

29:20

minutes. With. Door to door. But.

29:23

It's much quieter and smaller.

29:25

Even. Though you also have everything because it's

29:27

a university town and so you have. An

29:30

end in this country is small. so

29:32

physically small but has a lot of

29:34

people. So even in this towns like

29:37

this. You. Pretty much there's nothing.

29:39

I don't really think there's anything here I

29:41

I don't have that. You know, there's not

29:43

much that I would think. Is

29:46

only after going to Am Sam tonight. Actually

29:48

for the front halls opening. Of the

29:51

Rights Museum. I'd love for The Rights Museum

29:53

to be here in town, but. The

29:55

fact is, we don't have the tourists,

29:57

you know. Amsterdam is really been struggling

29:59

with the tourist question just like Barcelona

30:01

Lose Man and Venison. You.

30:04

Know increasingly so many cities will have

30:06

out here. It's quite nice. Brazil.

30:10

Wire Brazilians harder to interview.

30:12

Brasilia, Target interview the not for

30:15

me. More. For you. But you

30:17

said this once. It in general lands are harder

30:19

to interview. Oh why know what I mean by

30:21

that? Yes, Americans love to

30:23

talk at it's a it's a

30:26

question that you really feel. In.

30:29

Countries that have had a long tradition

30:31

of political freedom. we can kind of

30:33

mouth off and I couldn't there too

30:35

much trouble. People are much more open

30:37

to strangers. You know edmund wife

30:39

once said that everybody New York say that we

30:42

arrested or interviewed. That's. Kind of.

30:44

Nor both. you know, are both

30:46

Often it's both. But. I'm

30:48

but you know in Latin America

30:50

where they have a tradition that

30:53

not old I mean people remember

30:55

it. It was very recently of

30:57

dictatorship and of censorship and of

30:59

the cops. Knocking. Down

31:01

your door to find forbidden books and all

31:04

that. People don't' Talk

31:06

quite as easily about.

31:09

Sensitive. Subjects so they might be

31:11

very warm and hospitable, and they often

31:13

are. But. When you interview them

31:15

about anything sensitive, anything political, anything that

31:17

they your, you have to kind of

31:19

gain their trust. And so when I

31:21

started interviewing people in Latin America in

31:24

which was. A long time

31:26

ago. You know. Twenty five years ago. I.

31:28

Would kind of bar jam a little bit too.

31:31

Aggressively. I think in retrospect, I

31:33

wouldn't kind of respect the. Is

31:36

a beautiful day? Oh yes he notices my

31:38

grand sons in as he just went to

31:40

a third grade. Like all that kind of

31:43

stuff that can often in Latin American take

31:45

a long time. And. Eventually

31:47

I figured that it was about. and

31:50

seeing if you're and okay person if he can

31:53

actually be trusted. Yeah.

31:55

I'm in every interviewing people, which is something

31:57

I've done my whole career basically. It's.

32:00

Fascinating because you learn how different cultures

32:03

are and how that tickets expressed in

32:05

what people say what they want So.

32:07

Does. Brasilia actually work as a

32:09

city. If.

32:11

You want to keep the. Great.

32:13

Unwashed at a sanitary distance

32:16

and live in a little

32:18

colonial. Island. Where you

32:20

don't ever have to interact with the

32:22

actual country. Yeah. I

32:24

mean, people like living there. It's

32:27

a little and diplomatic island

32:29

that surrounded by. This.

32:31

Greenbelt. Quote. Unquote,

32:34

Just just of unsubscribe. It's like a

32:36

beautiful park or anything. And

32:38

then at a very very very

32:40

great distance you have all the

32:42

poor people. Millions of them.

32:46

And. This is really it's. quite.

32:48

Disconcerting as you know Brazil because one

32:51

of the things about preserve it makes

32:53

it post scary and certain moments of

32:55

but also really dynamic. Another moment is

32:57

that. Despite massive class

32:59

differences which are humongous of

33:02

course, And that has

33:04

a racial component as well. You're.

33:06

Always quite. If he's ever been to

33:08

Rio, you know that I'm right behind

33:10

the fancy apartment buildings. You have the

33:13

sun's disk right there, though it's not.

33:16

It's. Segregated in a certain wave. It's

33:18

not really geographically segregated. So.

33:20

When you go to Brasilia and you'd

33:22

seen in it looks like some kind

33:24

of architectural drawings. But.

33:26

No one's on the streets and nobody's. In.

33:29

A it's It's very weird and I think

33:31

it's even weirder that people like it. but

33:33

apparently you know people who grow up there.

33:36

I like it. I've been twice. Have you

33:38

really. I. Think it's beautiful.

33:40

Robert Hughes said. That.

33:44

The only reason anybody likes Brasilia. so they

33:46

never been there. You're

33:48

offering a counter example. It's.

33:51

Not an ambition I share, but it's a

33:53

monument to a certain kind of ambitions that

33:55

with seen through. Consistent.

33:58

Sense. Of how things. The Be. And.

34:01

It's still that way. maybe even more so.

34:04

Why did you go there twice? Why

34:07

did you go there once? I

34:09

wanted to see the modernist architecture which

34:11

to me is quite interesting and then

34:13

I wanted to show some friends so that

34:16

makes twice the I wouldn't mind going

34:18

again. I don't think I will, but.

34:21

I sound it. First time I went

34:23

I was really excited. Because.

34:25

I knew others building flies. Kind of a Brazil person.

34:27

I've been to Brazil for on time. And.

34:30

I'd never been. There is quite hard to get there. You

34:32

have to be going there. You're not gonna ever be. Stopping.

34:35

By. And I was

34:37

so bored after a few. hours

34:40

actually. For. You liked it.

34:42

I think it's a wonderful place for two days.

34:45

With. Put a towel. Okay, well that's true. I had

34:47

a week I think maybe that was the first Hi

34:49

Clinic went all but stir crazy there. That's.

34:52

Far too much. Speaking. Of Dutch

34:54

novels, a lot of a great that's novels actually take

34:56

place in a nice. Which. Was

34:58

to Dutch East Indies. And

35:00

they have a lot of. The thing is

35:02

this colonial life. you know everybody's sitting around

35:04

like waiting for t to and unlike some

35:07

based on a come over it's three fifteen.

35:09

And then they're gonna have another cup of tea

35:12

and then they're going. I'd gonna walk for fifteen

35:14

min and they're just really bored in they're in

35:16

this like little tennis hill station communities and then

35:18

there's this like. As threatening

35:20

foreign country around them. And.

35:23

Mike say some Brasilia was often like. I

35:26

felt that. Colonial.

35:29

Boredom to it. But act,

35:31

but I didn't have a job in a lot of

35:33

people who work there, they do have real jobs in

35:35

the government or in that embassies. Isn't.

35:38

It striking to you how much more

35:41

colonial eyes Brazil feals in Indonesia. Well.

35:44

I mean because Indonesia got. Rid

35:48

of the dots and that that's also never left their

35:50

language there. But. Indonesia's a colony

35:52

of the Javanese mean that's. That's

35:55

something that I feel is not quite. Seen.

35:58

The you know when you go to the other islands? The realize

36:00

they really impose themselves on. On.

36:03

Is quite different nations really sets

36:05

a different kind of thing. That

36:08

was you probably know, at least in

36:11

broad brush terms. Manufacturing used to be

36:13

about a third as Brazilian gdp and

36:15

now it's about a tenth. That's a

36:17

big drop. So Brazil is to industrialize

36:20

and what does the political economy as

36:22

a future? The industrialized Brazil. Why?

36:25

Think you're saying now and we I think

36:27

that you know that. The

36:29

the idea of. Free

36:32

Trade. And I know you're

36:34

you're an economist premium for you know more about

36:36

Snyder but the idea of free trade as a

36:38

quest to figure out where it's cheaper to make

36:40

a sniff. We can make this and Gwangju and

36:42

sip it over terms. So Paulo. For.

36:45

Cheaper that would cost to set up something in Sao

36:47

Paulo and let's do it that way. I

36:49

mean, of course it's caused great. Great. Instability

36:52

caused the arise and

36:54

extremism. As. We've seen. And

36:57

so many countries. It has a site

36:59

different tins there but is basically the

37:01

same problem I think. It's.

37:03

Fascinating that in the last twenty

37:05

years, The. Main Latin

37:08

American ideology of. Since. World

37:10

War Two, which was import substitution.

37:13

Gone. So. You

37:15

know you have the market just flooded with seats.

37:18

Sit from all over the place. You.

37:20

Know that offers a

37:22

seemingly octaves. Option

37:26

to consumers but ultimately. You.

37:29

Know Brazil has has not done very

37:31

well. And the last. Couple

37:33

of generations. What?

37:36

Do you think is the underrated Brazilian

37:38

city to visit? Oversee

37:41

say? I think. Of here of in there.

37:43

Now. But it seems like such a mess

37:46

I'm even a little afraid to go. I've

37:48

been to Salvador and that was possible, but

37:50

I always had to have my guard up

37:52

entirely. I've been to Rio and been saw

37:54

that. And. Have you got saddam?

37:56

Eleven year olds? chase me? Yes. Audits

37:59

tasty with pointed. The next I was

38:01

not shooting to be clear. ah. So.

38:03

I love resale. It's one of my favorite countries,

38:05

but I always worry about where I should and

38:07

should not go there but make it easier V

38:10

Brazilian. Physically, you could be

38:12

brazilian. You. Don't easily him people

38:14

may come up to me they speak Portuguese. When

38:16

I'm vi you could sit and perfectly. I mean

38:18

I'm a little bit and we I clock. Portuguese.

38:22

So it's different. know go to resettle

38:24

Linda. Know and Hussar and when I

38:26

was, I've listened. I've spent so much time in

38:28

Brazil as you're almost dishonest, that I've never been

38:30

mugged, But. I really haven't. I

38:32

mean. I feel like I'm

38:35

not. A true. Brazil.

38:38

A file on time. like had a

38:40

kidney removed by some drug lord. But.

38:43

I've always hundred feet from there is Martha and

38:45

on as we see say the place you go

38:47

to have that happen to you. To.

38:49

Have a kidney removed by drug lord or. Yeah.

38:52

I'm. I'm telling you are missing out and

38:55

go and hang out the wrong people. I

38:57

think I need to run with a rough crowd. I.

39:00

Like to with was ill. The.

39:02

Foul even a boring so let's city like

39:04

or to chiba I think is very nice

39:06

and has wonderful food. Does not really anything

39:08

to do their right. I've. Only

39:11

been there once. It's not my favorite I've been. I

39:13

mean, I want to put on like I got a

39:15

couple years ago where hadn't been on time. It's not.

39:17

I mean. It's a totally decent

39:19

I think To live there it's sort of

39:21

easier. Than. It would be the live

39:23

in the Northeast The I love the Northeast. I mean if if

39:25

I have to choose. Always got

39:27

to the northeast. Why? Did

39:29

modernism so persist in Brazil?

39:32

Will. I have a whole long theory about

39:34

that. have actually kind of in a book

39:36

about it and portuguese but but. This.

39:38

Is the Auto Imperialism book? That

39:41

site which I wrote a few years ago and I thought

39:43

I was going to finish writing and make it a real

39:45

book and in ghosts. And I never did. Maybe.

39:47

I will sometime, but. Brazil. Desperately

39:49

wanted to be modern. It desperately

39:51

wanted to join the modern world.

39:53

It desperately wanted to. Protect.

39:55

Itself into the world. There's.

39:58

A great sense of inferiority among. Brazilian.

40:00

Intellectuals that goes back really to the nineteenth century.

40:02

They always write about this. Actually all these books

40:04

back here. this is all Brazilian. That or two

40:06

behind me. And. Brazilians,

40:09

Sound. I think in. Art

40:12

and especially in architecture a

40:14

way to. To create

40:16

a new identity for themselves. And and that's

40:18

my problem. I think with Brasilia the city

40:21

is that. It. Creates a

40:23

new. Look. For.

40:27

Something. That doesn't require. Changing

40:30

any social structures so. This.

40:33

Is a great subject. on the last

40:35

the brazilian last forever is that. You

40:37

know, Brazil is actually an incredibly conservative

40:40

country, Always. And. The

40:42

great frustration was hit incremental change of

40:44

the sort of you know kind that

40:46

we would associate with less maybe Franklin

40:48

Roosevelt. Was. Just impossible. And

40:51

so. I. Think a lot of that energy

40:53

and this is just my full set theory. I don't

40:55

know if it's true, but. I. Think a

40:57

lotta energy get subsumed into things you

41:00

can do. I mean you can design

41:02

a building in a you can do

41:04

these things and but in in Brasilia

41:06

you see that actually this modern design

41:08

is actually the. Outward

41:11

appearance of an incredibly

41:13

authoritarian and ferry. Repressive.

41:16

State. So. Those

41:18

things could go together thousand he myers

41:21

Big discovery. If you were

41:23

trying to sell a reader and terrorists the

41:25

spectre who would never read any The spectre

41:27

before. How. Would you make the

41:29

case and were said they start. I'd

41:31

first on not make the case. I. Would

41:33

say to read the our the Star which is

41:36

her last book which is the first book of

41:38

hearts that I ever read. When. I

41:40

was in college. And if

41:42

you love it, Then it'll be one

41:44

of the great things that ever happened. See you. In.

41:47

Your life. And

41:49

if you don't love it, then. Move

41:52

on, read something else because it's

41:54

so. I. Once read the story

41:57

by this Canadian sex toy. To

41:59

said diver. Ramallah here. And

42:01

it was this toy for women that was so

42:03

big that had to be brought over in a

42:06

van. And set up. There

42:09

ask me where I saw this. this is a long time it. I

42:11

wish I could find this article. But.

42:14

Apparently it was so. Complex.

42:17

The see. That. It

42:20

would either give these women these incredible orgasms

42:22

that we have the last for weeks in

42:24

a bit of greatest experience in their life.

42:27

Or is it was just like the dead

42:29

that just as a radio signal was a

42:31

little bit off, you'd feel absolutely nothing. And.

42:36

I. Always think about this Canadian sex

42:38

toy because there's some sort of art

42:40

that just really. You.

42:42

Know it can be the same art. It

42:45

can be the same frequency that will blow

42:47

someone's mind. Somebody else does won't feel it.

42:49

And I've known a lot of Brazilians who.

42:52

Actually are quite. Troubled.

42:55

By their failure to appreciate Clarice

42:57

of Spectre. Because.

43:00

They feel dumb You know she

43:02

says great national and international icon.

43:05

You know she's is incredible figure. Is.

43:07

Is is really feel stupid. It's like not getting

43:10

six me or something but I do think it's

43:12

it's so specific and as a specific kind of

43:14

person and I think if you really are the

43:16

startle take you an hour. Eighty

43:18

pages on. If you feel

43:20

that the frequency then it'll be one

43:23

of the great things that you've ever

43:25

read. And if you don't minutes okay

43:27

everybody's different. You. Once wrote

43:29

about Susan Sontag and I quote

43:31

so much of Sontag best work

43:33

concerns the ways we try and

43:36

sale to see Unquote. Please.

43:38

Explain. Well I mean

43:40

this is what on photography is about. This

43:42

is what a concern. Terminations about him sometimes

43:44

work and of course. You. Know in

43:46

my new book. The. Upside Down World

43:49

A Talk about. How. I'm

43:51

not really great at seem particularly. I'm

43:53

not that this will like I'm a

43:55

person, I'm a reader. I'm

43:57

I'm I'm A. Bookworm. Often.

44:00

When I was it paintings I've

44:02

realized how. Little I actually see

44:04

me. I really, sometimes I do feel embarrassed by

44:06

it. Like you read that the. The.

44:09

Label and I'll be like three Sensational said

44:11

like a man with a dog and you're

44:13

like oh I can't even see the talks

44:15

to me and I just like on the

44:17

I'm is basic levels I just think oh

44:19

like as I don't if someone doesn't pointed

44:21

out to me I really don't see. And

44:23

I think that that was one of the fascinating

44:25

things about Sontag as it she was not only.

44:28

Not. Really able to see. Which

44:31

is actually quite. Terrible

44:34

at St and this was especially true and

44:36

hurley since Sept eats she was very bad

44:38

at seeing what other people were thinking and

44:40

feeling. And. I

44:43

think because she was aware of that,

44:45

he tried very hard to remedy it.

44:47

It's not something you can force you

44:49

know I'm You can't force yourself a

44:52

like. Certain. Music: Kurtzer.

44:55

Like. Certain tastes that you my know. What?

44:59

Was Sontag most right about are most

45:01

insightful about. Six, You know

45:04

this person as images from what images

45:06

do? And. Photography

45:08

and how. representations,

45:10

metaphors, Can preferred

45:13

things. He had a very

45:15

deep for Polson to photography. We see

45:17

really heated photography and this is why

45:19

a lot of photographers can. I hated

45:21

her. Because. They salt as soon

45:23

as you're not really say it. She really

45:25

didn't trust it. She really thought it was

45:28

kind of wicked. And. At the same

45:30

time for somebody who had a. Deficit.

45:32

I guess you could say it seeing. Really

45:35

relied on it. Took can understand

45:37

the world and so. I.

45:39

Think that Henson is very. Instructive

45:42

for us because now I'm his yard. He

45:44

says fifty years ago there's all these images

45:46

will know what to do with and we're

45:48

not a process some. I mean

45:50

forget. A I forget. In

45:53

Russian polls on Twitter, I mean it.

45:55

It's such a. User's.

45:57

Word. I really like. Hygiene.

46:00

She talks like mental hygiene. How.

46:03

You can connect clean, the. The.

46:05

Rusty Pikes in your brain. That's.

46:08

Why I think reading her. Helps.

46:10

Me at least to understand a lot of

46:12

what I'm saying in the world. You

46:16

think she will simply and up forgotten.

46:18

So in my view against interpretation is

46:20

one is the great books. Many the

46:23

essays in there are amazing. But.

46:25

I don't see it resonating with the

46:28

most people anymore. And

46:30

will just disappear. So as you mentioned

46:32

in your book she spent what seven

46:34

years collecting and tony and auto into

46:37

some kind of volume and heated seater

46:39

and he's forgotten and see Must have

46:41

thought he was quite important. Rights will

46:43

see just meet the same fate. Well,

46:46

I think doesn't. Everyone is very New

46:48

York staff, right? A New York is

46:51

not really the cultural Center of the

46:53

World or even the United States anymore.

46:56

Well. I'll tell you I can tell you a lot

46:58

about that. I have many thoughts about that I'll try

47:00

to give you a couple. The first one is that.

47:03

And some Texas. So

47:05

I knew exactly that. I mean, I'm

47:07

a New Yorker by, you know, Some.

47:10

Sort of. In

47:12

the way that most New Yorkers are. You.

47:16

Know the valedictorian from Boise. I

47:19

knew that people in Houston. Have

47:21

heard of her but I don't worry her and I know that

47:23

everybody New York it's us with her. And they

47:25

thought. This. As I can tell you

47:28

like the sales of my Sontag book. I

47:30

mean it was reviewed everywhere it was. You

47:32

know it at one despise all her stuff,

47:34

but you know he didn't so that much.

47:36

It is because it sold to like you

47:38

know, a few groups of people who care

47:40

very passionately about her. That's not

47:43

to say it's shouldn't. As except for.

47:45

Legacy. Is.

47:48

Very uncomfortable. It

47:50

varies by any. Such

47:52

have to see such sharing the cactus

47:54

with no. without removing the.

47:57

Exterior. It. Demands a lot.

48:00

The Reader. I mean I

48:02

was saying about that's what is her that you

48:04

can't read anything or before World War Two and

48:06

I don't think it's much different. and we your.

48:09

Do still teach Sure. Of course I mean is

48:11

this: does this sound unfamiliar to you in terms

48:13

of and all my professor friends say that the

48:15

kids of all brad a whole lot less than

48:17

they had fifteen or twenty years ago. I

48:20

think that's true, but what I

48:22

do find is there a certain

48:24

superstar figures Shakespeare generate and Tolkien

48:27

who are probably read more. Overall,

48:29

reading is probably down. Diversity of

48:32

reading past the superstars is definitely

48:34

down. That's my impression. Well.

48:36

I think that your you see this with a

48:38

lot of things. All over the place. you

48:40

know the big brand. Does really well.

48:43

You. Know Cvs is doing really well, but.

48:46

Navy. All the stops at used to make up the

48:48

rest of the city. Has been. Decimated.

48:51

They're not. They're more. They're all replaced by

48:54

chain. So you have a few chain browns.

48:57

And happy. That's true. Clothing is true and media

48:59

it's true. And literature. But. That's

49:01

not a saint. Me Sontag is. I

49:05

don't love reading Susan Sontag. And

49:08

we is not what I want to read if I pick

49:10

up a. If I have an hour

49:12

to kill and I'm sir sitting. In

49:14

on my couch sees not of the writer that

49:16

I would wanna pick up. That

49:19

sad I've learned more from Susan Sontag

49:21

and spot anybody else I've ever read.

49:23

But. To see really. I think if you

49:26

like. If. You're the kind

49:28

of bootcamp reader. You know that I

49:30

always was. Like. I always.

49:32

Really? Liked. Difficult.

49:35

Books. I. Like studying. Things.

49:38

That are kind of hard. such salt, that or

49:40

something in there that I could maybe learn from

49:42

them. So there's a kind of masochism to it,

49:44

but of the same time. I would

49:47

hate to think of my life with House Sontag.

49:49

I. Think I would be stupid or I think I

49:51

would be. Less.

49:54

Able to cope with the reality of

49:56

as the world. And

49:58

has huge gratitude. For having read

50:00

all that stuff. When. You read

50:02

it all together. It's not

50:05

all so great. he knows it, says she's

50:07

quite prolific. Actually, she writes a lot. You

50:09

know people read a couple of bucks or

50:11

couple of essays. But you

50:13

know there's. A whole. Lot of

50:15

Sontag to read. I. Think if you look

50:17

in the Library of America, you know they they have a

50:19

lot of it in those two volumes Now. It

50:22

It's just a majestic altogether. Beautiful.

50:25

My. Didn't Camille Paglia become the

50:27

next season? Sontag. That's.

50:30

A great question. He. Denies that

50:33

she wanted to be. When. I spoke to

50:35

her. She clearly did. Yes, you clearly did. I

50:37

mean I think see. The. Had I'm

50:39

identity though at four am is. Camilla.

50:42

Is a complex subject of her own

50:44

bath see had. He.

50:46

Has an idea of herself that she

50:48

needed standing and how to me because

50:50

he felt that teaching and interacting with

50:52

at for humans. Was. A way

50:54

of preventing the kind of aristocratic excesses

50:57

of people. Accidents on. Which.

50:59

I think it's absolutely fair enough. I mean, I

51:01

don't. I. Can't imagine Sontag as

51:03

a professor. I think that would

51:05

have to versus that's just not

51:07

who she was. But I think

51:09

that Camille also as much as

51:12

the reason she's a fascinating person

51:14

I think is that See both

51:16

satirizes a lot of the aspects

51:18

of the celebrity culture that Sontag.

51:20

Was. A part of and a very successful part

51:23

of. While. Also having quite

51:25

a lot of excesses of her own mean

51:27

I don't have the sandwich sinead O'Connor died

51:29

a few months ago few weeks. There.

51:31

Was this clip going on the internet? As

51:33

Camille saying. If I were.

51:36

Nato Connor I would hate myself to and

51:38

I would want to.kill myself and you know

51:40

it was something that was just like. This.

51:43

Was before the internet, you know when?

51:45

Now if you say something like that,

51:48

You're. Putting yourself. You're You're putting yourself out there as

51:50

a kind of. I'm. An obnoxious person

51:52

on the internet. But. Dismiss you

51:55

know, thirty or forty years ago. And.

51:57

In fact, you know Sinead does kill herself and

51:59

does. This very miserable life and was. Abused

52:02

and all this. So I mean I think

52:04

Cameo is is a. I'm

52:07

not going to write a book about her. But. I

52:09

think that there is a book to write about

52:11

her because she does. See.

52:14

Both criticizes and also. Embodies

52:17

a lot of these. Lessons.

52:20

I went to the podcast with her and

52:22

I think of all the guess we've ever

52:24

had, he produced the greatest number of words

52:26

and greatest number of words per minute. Oh

52:28

My. God. No. I remember I had to

52:31

take down the first time I talk to

52:33

her. And the

52:35

first thing she suddenly what I thought was where

52:37

I Sinuses on the record interview and she said.

52:40

Everything I say is on the record. Was.

52:43

I thought was hilarious because so many

52:45

people would kind of whisper an accord

52:47

or is inserted try to make themselves

52:49

interesting. It sees you know she owns

52:51

it. Yes, he plucks really fast.

52:54

Now. Who Are Final segment on the

52:56

Benjamin Moser production functions. What?

52:58

Did you learn from Vs Naipaul? Oh.

53:03

Oh, you've been looking my instagram? oh I don't

53:05

know where I saw that that you mention it

53:07

somewhere. Oh I miss him in the

53:09

book as well vs My Paul is my absolute.

53:13

Is probably the most. Symbolic.

53:16

Figure in my head. Is

53:19

the person that occupies and most space

53:21

of all the people I've known. He

53:24

he is a kind of. Almost

53:27

oedipal figure for me, a father figure.

53:30

Someone. That I knew very well when

53:32

I was younger. I

53:34

venerated him. And.

53:37

I think I was him a writer because of him. And.

53:41

I also stopped reading him because I wanted to

53:43

be a writer because his influence is so overwhelming

53:45

on me. And. The sense

53:47

as. Never being able to measure up

53:49

to him. Was. So depressing

53:52

that. I had to

53:54

find my own way in the world to use a

53:56

title was his novels. Having. That

53:58

is an example that intact the and

54:00

that. That

54:02

stuff in a leading. Self.

54:05

Sacrifice belief in the importance of

54:07

literature and writing. I.

54:10

Had to go away from it. I started

54:12

reading him again about four or five years ago,

54:14

and I thought. Actually, Gonna When

54:16

I won the Pulitzer prize, That's when I thought.

54:19

Now. I can read him again. Rather

54:21

than diminishing him. In. A

54:24

sense sometimes like the writers that make a huge

54:26

impression of you and adolescents are as a young

54:28

person. You. Know

54:30

you combat than twenty years later. This is not as.

54:33

Much. Most important.

54:36

And. See was in fact even better

54:38

than I remember. I. Just. Again,

54:41

I had to stop reading him because. The.

54:44

Impression that he makes on an impressionable young

54:46

person. This is too overwhelming. When. I

54:48

rarely turn in the South. I greatly enjoyed

54:51

it, but over time I somehow grew not

54:53

to like the book, especially after I spent

54:55

more time in the South. What's the correct

54:57

stance on that? one? He

55:00

strikes me for is just he

55:02

was a grump, but in a

55:04

way that infected his writing and

55:06

he disliked group. So same about

55:08

a million mutinies. Quite an interesting

55:10

book, but ultimately not willing to

55:12

understand what makes India work. Either

55:16

he thought India worked. It's

55:18

done relatively well since he rode

55:21

million mutinies. i think better than

55:23

almost anyone had predicted. In.

55:25

Some Ways of A Million Mutinies As a

55:27

book about. Positive. Change.

55:30

right? I mean, that's a book about. How.

55:32

These the mutinies or that the people who

55:34

instead of being imprisoned in. Their. Cast

55:37

function as liberated themselves as you

55:39

know that. The. Son of

55:41

the railways. And Doctor or

55:43

comes a Dentist In A sad story

55:45

of mobility. But. I

55:48

mean, India's of course, and increasingly

55:50

repressive, an increasingly dictatorial country. Which.

55:53

Video to not see quite as

55:55

much concerned to certain extent support

55:57

it's. I think to see when did you

55:59

ah sweet him. Not. Recently, not

56:01

in the last ten years. He

56:03

i the go back and we go back to

56:06

those even as early novelty rights as early twenties

56:08

or so. Incredibly good like me gal street and

56:10

to me I just. Away in

56:12

the world. Is one of the great

56:14

books. In. A free status center

56:16

stick. As unhappy as. Well.

56:19

And there's so many as I am

56:22

he writes his books. I'm sitting here

56:24

like. Fine for a hard to

56:26

write. If I can write up hated

56:28

day I feel like it's you know? I.

56:31

Can take the rest of week off. She.

56:33

Wrote books of a quality and of a.

56:36

Penetration that I find. Maybe.

56:39

He's I mean, I wonder if he's read much

56:41

anymore. He's been cancelled

56:44

every which way for all sorts of

56:46

reasons. I don't think he's read much

56:48

anymore do people read have? Not.

56:50

That I hear about you dope. Maybe some

56:52

people my age, but I never hear about

56:55

him from younger people. Will.

56:57

See I mean I think it's it's it's

56:59

it's of. It's a body of work that

57:01

produced in one lifetime. That.

57:04

I think. Particularly. Pavilion

57:06

Indiana Caribbean. And.

57:08

Will. Her:

57:10

Do Her: I mean I just read. The.

57:12

Mask of Africa. About

57:14

a year ago. Is. Made

57:17

no impression of on me at the time it

57:19

came out across. thought you know he was old

57:21

and he was kind of grunting around. dad bone

57:24

or whatever. He. Was. Obsessed

57:27

with this idea. Of

57:30

animal sacrifice and human sacrifice.

57:33

Wits. And I knew video and one

57:36

of my. Main commitments: Oh

57:38

silly and ethically is is is

57:40

for vegetarianism. And I

57:42

knew that he was a. He.

57:45

Was always thought of as a vegetarian be

57:47

wasn't actually a vegetarian buses trust? Funny, I

57:49

don't know why because the british thought oh

57:51

wow, he's Indian you but there was some

57:53

hire me and his house which I was

57:56

sound quite shocking actually but he had a

57:58

Hindu. Sense. As. The

58:00

unclean this of meat not just the

58:02

sinfulness of killing but the that the

58:04

meat was dirty. And. He goes

58:06

to Africa and he goes all over the place

58:08

and he. Is only

58:11

really talking about this idea of

58:13

that that the power. Can.

58:15

Be taken. From. The organ

58:17

of a slaughtered animal or human.

58:21

This is something that I know exists in Africa

58:23

on foot in this book. He

58:25

tries these ideas of sacrifice. Of

58:28

power. But also with

58:31

this extremely. Socking.

58:33

View of. Environmental. Destruction.

58:36

And. What it means to kill animals into. As for

58:38

the forest. I. Put I put down

58:40

with a chill. Up in a way that.

58:43

He I'd missed it the first time I read it, as

58:45

didn't I thought it was kind of boring. What?

58:48

Do you think of the biography Sir video? I'm sure

58:50

you know it. Had a crisis artifice

58:52

I said i i that's who wrote it

58:54

oh no you repulsed american surround through our

58:57

yet or video sata yeah it is different

58:59

titles I think and us in the Uk.

59:02

Or. Know there's a project for inspired us He called the

59:04

world is what it is. Patrick. Friends who

59:06

just died. Yeah. But. I

59:08

mean there's around with ruse but

59:10

yeah sir, videos that sorry that

59:12

book is. A. Hundred

59:14

percent accurate as he knew him. Hundred

59:17

percent accurate. And. Yet.

59:20

Totally wrong. I mean he was one of these

59:22

people that if you want to put him through

59:24

the kind of council culture filter and say this

59:26

was a noxious think the same women. This is

59:28

not a single say about black people to sort

59:31

of not a thing same a gay people. it's

59:33

all there. It's all fair. And you

59:35

know he was a provocateur. See, love getting a

59:37

rise out of people. And see.

59:40

If he was sunny, you know he's kind

59:42

of busy. He was fun to talk to.

59:45

I'll never forget I had like I am

59:47

from America as I don't understand cricket. And

59:50

we were in England. I was at his house. And.

59:53

He started. His watching cricket

59:55

to Nz must watch the cricket. And

59:57

I said okay as like but. Forgive

1:00:00

my. American. Ignorance.

1:00:03

but. I. Still get

1:00:05

cricket. He sat there and he was

1:00:07

so patient. That he spent

1:00:09

like two or three hours. Because you have us. cricket

1:00:11

matches last forever. explaining.

1:00:14

Everything of I have, I have retained zero

1:00:16

of it. When I see Cricket I still

1:00:18

have no idea you know what's happening. But.

1:00:20

He was right time to me. He's very encouraging to

1:00:22

me when I was young. God. Knows why.

1:00:25

He was. Wonderful man. The.

1:00:28

Why does used in produce so few intellectuals?

1:00:30

Or perhaps you will challenge the premise of

1:00:33

their question. I'm. From Houston and

1:00:35

I'm something of an as like so. But.

1:00:37

I won't sounds the premise the question. I think

1:00:39

that. When. I was growing

1:00:42

up. And. She sustained lot since I

1:00:44

was growing up. She says so much bigger than

1:00:46

it was it so much more diverse. I mean

1:00:48

it's so. Huge. Huge and

1:00:50

fascinating city of which I know absolutely

1:00:52

nothing more. I think it's Calvin Coolidge

1:00:54

said the business of America is business. The.

1:00:57

Business of Houston as business From It's a business

1:00:59

place. It's a place where you go to. You.

1:01:02

Know sept: five hundred thousand tons

1:01:04

of. Crude from Equatorial

1:01:06

Guinea to be delivered and saying

1:01:09

hi on Tuesday at eleven fifteen

1:01:11

am. And you know, everybody

1:01:13

I knew growing up of my parents' friends.

1:01:15

And. My teachers and all those people that were

1:01:18

adults you know. I always thought that if

1:01:20

you're good at math you became a doctor.

1:01:22

If you're good at like Inglis. He.

1:01:24

Became a lawyer, And.

1:01:26

That sounds almost like an exaggeration, but

1:01:28

like I didn't really know about all

1:01:30

these other professions that people can have.

1:01:32

The idea of culture was. Sort

1:01:35

of an imported phenomenon. I mean, it's

1:01:37

not. now, it's It's quite different than.

1:01:40

I. Am I mean I and my

1:01:42

parents were pretty interim well connected people

1:01:44

and indo. Art. World Literary

1:01:47

World. My mother had a bookstore says

1:01:49

at two bookstores. One. For

1:01:51

children when for adults. My. Father

1:01:53

was a lawyer. I mean I've I knew I

1:01:55

had a pretty good. Introduction

1:01:58

to the interesting people around. But.

1:02:02

If I hadn't gone away, My.

1:02:05

Mother said you wouldn't pay for me to go to

1:02:07

college is if I stayed in Texas. I

1:02:10

will use Her parents sent her to college

1:02:12

and taxes. And in a. Taxi

1:02:15

would have loved to have gone somewhere else. But.

1:02:18

That was that was back and in. this

1:02:20

turns his different times and sasser by this

1:02:22

question. I think it's a really good question.

1:02:24

I think that places are so. They

1:02:27

get a character impressed on them

1:02:29

very early. And. It doesn't

1:02:31

really teens, you know, because access I think

1:02:34

they just attract a certain kind of people.

1:02:37

I. Know. I. Think I would

1:02:39

be pretty lonely in Houston intellectually and await

1:02:41

I'm not here. Because. Even

1:02:43

though this city and primary you trust

1:02:45

your. I wouldn't say I

1:02:47

have this incredibly intellectual. Existence here

1:02:49

at all. I mean, I write books, but

1:02:51

that's me and my house. It's.

1:02:54

Not like some. Idea. Of Paris with

1:02:56

sorry for it the next table or something and

1:02:58

was not. I got all I could get my

1:03:00

dry cleaning every week and to go to the

1:03:02

grocery store. I don't really have a social life

1:03:04

like that and yet to think of being in

1:03:06

Houston. And trying to.

1:03:09

Do. This but somehow feel. Harder.

1:03:12

On a while. Before. My

1:03:14

last question let me just present your

1:03:17

book against it is the upside down

1:03:19

World Meetings with Dutch Masters by Benjamin

1:03:21

Moser. Very last question, What will you

1:03:24

do next? Wow. This

1:03:26

is a secret. Is to

1:03:28

be revealed very soon. I for.

1:03:31

Reasons. Dealing with my agent I cannot

1:03:33

tell you. That mysterious

1:03:35

and sexy. This. Mysterious and

1:03:37

sexy. But then I need a

1:03:40

different final question. Of.

1:03:42

A new project. Decide what is it

1:03:44

you will next seek to learn about?

1:03:46

well, Because of

1:03:48

Sontag. I. Spent a lifetime the Balkans.

1:03:51

And. Bosnia especially in that and

1:03:54

Serbian, Croatia. And so I am

1:03:56

now learning the language that. Is

1:03:59

the only was. Two Alphabet and has for

1:04:01

at least four different names which used to

1:04:03

be called Serbo Croatian than the old days.

1:04:06

It's not hard Serbian or Croatian,

1:04:08

Bosnian and Montenegrin. Saw. The

1:04:10

same language. But. I've been studying

1:04:12

that. The last couple of years. And.

1:04:16

I. Feel like I'm really too old to learn

1:04:18

another language, especially one that actually have any. And

1:04:21

like if I had one day five ten

1:04:23

years ago it would have been useful for

1:04:26

this book. But now I'm just like obsessives

1:04:28

li studying Serbo Croatian. And

1:04:30

I have to say I com love it. Who.

1:04:32

Knows if. You

1:04:35

are so many things that have no point to them

1:04:37

inundate. The point is kind of mailed

1:04:40

and mystery and then. And

1:04:42

then eventually. Sometimes.

1:04:46

They come in handy. Yeah,

1:04:48

I study Swedish and college which is

1:04:50

another story. Because. I like

1:04:53

the Professor Sweetest who was the wife of

1:04:55

a passer I knew. And. Said

1:04:57

you should take Sweetest may have anything else to

1:04:59

do And that afternoon time with. Sweetest.

1:05:02

Has never once in thirty years been

1:05:04

of any use to me? What? So.

1:05:07

Whereas Portuguese what I also study

1:05:09

in college also completely by accident.

1:05:11

Has been one of the most important things my life. So

1:05:13

I think that when you study languages, you connect. You.

1:05:16

Open up that possibility. Sweetest.

1:05:19

I mean, it's still. I'm.

1:05:22

Still waiting for the moment that can come in

1:05:24

handy. Since. Hasn't

1:05:26

happened yet. Not going to be today.

1:05:28

You'll still be waiting, so maybe you'll

1:05:30

understand all the rules of cricket First

1:05:32

that Benjamin Moser. Thank you very much!

1:05:34

Thanks so much. Thanks

1:05:39

listening to conversations with Tyler. You

1:05:41

can subscribe to the show on

1:05:43

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1:05:45

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1:05:47

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1:05:52

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1:05:54

on Twitter I'm at Tyler Cowen

1:05:56

and the show is at Cow

1:05:58

and Conference. Until next time.

1:06:01

Please keep listening and learning.