0:00

A D C Listen

0:02

podcasts, radio news, music,

0:04

and more. Aboriginal

0:08

and Torres Strait on into. Listeners

0:10

please be advised that these conversation

0:12

contains content that might be upsetting.

0:15

Please. Use discretion when listening.

0:18

Cassandra Piracy today. Cassandra.

0:20

Is an internationally recognized Australian story

0:23

and whose based in Tasmania. She.

0:26

Live south of Hobart. In a very

0:28

lovely part of the world. On

0:30

the banks of the Don't Focus Don't Channel. That

0:33

runs between the Tasmanian mainland and

0:35

Briny Island. Cassandras.

0:38

Family has a longstanding connection to

0:40

the area. While back.

0:42

To. The early colonial period. In.

0:45

That colonial era. Tasmania.

0:48

Was a source of fascination. For

0:51

collectors and for museums all

0:53

over Europe. And

0:55

there was a huge demand. For

0:57

specimens of it's exotic wildlife.

1:00

For. Skeletons final scenes and

1:03

purposes and Tasmanian devils.

1:06

But this was nothing like the intense

1:08

demand. For the mortal

1:10

remains of the first nations people

1:13

of Tasmania. For. The

1:15

skulls and bones. Of those who

1:17

was said at the time to be. The.

1:20

Last members of a dying

1:22

rice. And

1:24

the most convenient source for

1:26

those bodies in colonial times.

1:29

Was. An aboriginal station. Built.

1:32

On Oyster Cove. Near. Where

1:34

Cassandra lives today and where she grew up.

1:38

The Center had already written a biography of

1:40

Truck and any who spent her last year's

1:42

an Oyster Cove was only when. Cassandra

1:45

had completed that book. That. She

1:47

stumbled onto a dark and ghoulish

1:49

secret buried in the records. But.

1:53

The bones of aboriginal people in

1:55

Tasmania had been harvested. Furtively.

1:59

And. Illegally. From their

2:01

graves. And. Then carried

2:03

off to museums and universities all over

2:05

the world. And. Slid

2:07

her on the hunt. The find. Powerful,

2:09

People behind. This. Conspiracy.

2:13

Of bodysnatchers. Sanders

2:15

new book is called a Very Secret

2:17

Tried. And. Just one either. Awesome

2:20

distressing elements. Two parts of the story and

2:22

we will be mentioning some people who died.

2:25

Hell, I can require it said he

2:27

grew up in that part of Tasmania.

2:29

What are your memories from your childhood

2:32

of a kid? Rounded area. Well, Paradise

2:34

as it still is is not

2:36

much sayings. three lengths. That one

2:38

I didn't know of course was

2:40

that the Aboriginal station which was

2:42

next door to where my family

2:45

still lived on the original. I

2:47

instead it was just a derelict

2:49

site. had they were the last

2:51

of the Tasmanian people, had been

2:53

taken to die and. Could you I'm

2:55

around? The place was like he was. I could. Get

2:58

there he could if you adventurous children's

3:00

like me and my cousins because the

3:02

something like and I'll ruin the some

3:05

of the footings where they're still be

3:07

as old hey pipe said be bits

3:09

of broken crockery And it was years

3:11

later when I came back to live

3:14

in Tasmania when I was in my

3:16

late thirties in the same place did

3:18

I discovered that that was we're trying

3:20

in any has lived out nearly most

3:23

of her at all costs. Almost adjacent

3:25

to Wear, my family has lived through

3:27

New. Eyes no I don't think anybody my

3:29

family new so I kind of made it

3:32

my. Business. To find out.

3:34

So that was my first very

3:36

first book was about what happened

3:38

to the Aboriginal people of Tasmania.

3:40

That was cool. Community A sees

3:42

my second book thirty years later

3:44

was focused on that one remarkable

3:46

woman. I realized on his shoulders

3:48

I stand. I mean, I live

3:50

in this paradise. I live this

3:52

wonderful life because. It.

3:54

Was taken. From. Target. Any know I'm a junior

3:57

at the Family Connection going right back way

3:59

back to your. Ancestry came out from Britain.

4:01

Richards pipes to me a bit about him.

4:03

Well he he comes from and quite

4:05

well to do family besides had a

4:07

bank and he had a wine and

4:09

spirits salt but I think there was

4:11

a depression since Britain at that time.

4:13

I think he was probably one of

4:15

the few people more many people who

4:17

thought well they're offering all this land

4:19

free. No money at all ever needs

4:21

to be spent to get it in

4:23

Tasmania So you know let's go there.

4:26

and when he got to test my the what man was given to him.

4:28

Two. Thousand Six Hundred acres initially. and

4:31

then another. see Thousand Six Hundred Acres

4:33

little while after, and then another couple

4:35

of hundred light years across the channel.

4:37

And then another two Thousand Six Hundred

4:39

acres. Further, Up the dough and river. Just

4:42

like that. the fort that's what became of

4:44

him in the and Richard was smile. Well,

4:46

he got into a lot of

4:48

debt, had to sell most his

4:50

property. I think I'm drinking. Problem

4:53

solved. To tell persists I come

4:55

from others, downwardly mobile family and

4:57

Tasmanian history. I don't think is

4:59

anybody who hit the bottom quite

5:01

a success. My family does, so

5:03

they didn't hang onto that land

5:05

and. Bruni all as a very long at all

5:07

this places. Name for them there is

5:09

Pybus Hill implied a straight. And

5:11

Pybus Road and things. Like that, but

5:14

there's no family holdings know

5:16

ancestral. Lands eventually be government

5:18

A that land centers across.

5:20

The land just across it was quite

5:22

a small piece of land just across

5:24

the channel from his butts large land

5:26

grants and I think the idea would

5:28

be that that would be a day

5:30

post to bring his grain harvest the

5:32

brain that and convict for going for

5:34

him that he never used it and

5:36

the government. Took. It back to

5:38

put a convict settlement. Their work teams

5:41

would be housed there and after a

5:43

couple of years they took the convicts.

5:45

Why? Because it was too unhealthy to

5:48

have convicts. Leaving the it was too low.

5:50

And full of seasons and and to

5:52

some polling places he knows quite beautiful

5:54

but is very cold very miserable place

5:57

and so that they decided was where

5:59

the full. He fires survivors officers.

6:01

People of Tasmania who had been

6:03

in a camp on the Fringes

6:06

islands should be repatriated because it

6:08

was too expensive to look after

6:10

them On Send Alonso to put

6:12

them in a disused convict station

6:15

which was too unhealthy to put

6:17

convicts. In. Atrocities will be Indigenous people

6:19

who'd been taken off the Tasmanian mainland,

6:21

sent up to Flint is all and

6:23

in best straight from work conditions had

6:25

been disastrous his eyes and lead to

6:27

a huge die off due to say

6:29

too cold, too many prisons or vessel

6:31

to think so was like forty five

6:33

people were list or the five people

6:35

left right and that were brought to

6:37

oyster Cult. they'll direction. And within

6:40

the first five years, A

6:42

whole lot of people just disappeared from

6:44

the records. Presumably they die, Presumably they

6:46

were buried, but you know there's no

6:48

records. Nothing until one person who had

6:50

been in charge of Flint is islands

6:52

towards Augustus Robinson turns up this and

6:55

he could identify the graves of ten

6:57

people, but there was about thirteen other

6:59

people completely on the counted. For more

7:01

conditions like at that Spicer forever some

7:03

people living there it was very cold.

7:06

Was called it was damp but they

7:08

could go hunting. They would go on

7:10

these long hunting trips all the way

7:12

to the west coast and I come

7:14

back so much more healthier and happier

7:16

and and then the winter would set

7:18

in and they all had size we

7:20

can tell nice and tuberculosis it. They

7:23

picked up a friend is Alice so

7:25

they dug very quickly every winter. every

7:27

winter they would be just be carried

7:29

off. Sometimes I will be notice about

7:31

it this sometimes it would be some

7:33

suggesting that they'd been buried but basically

7:35

no. One was paying much. Attention. Most

7:37

famous inhabitants of that station was

7:39

kind of any who europe the

7:42

biography of. Targeting the use of

7:44

the girl was aware of the kids he was always

7:46

have a classic. All I knew about it the last

7:48

the last has mine in every single person. What kind

7:50

of story did you hear about her as a kid

7:53

but exactly. That one. That. Was the

7:55

school those school child's account of this

7:57

woman and only look the picture was.

8:00

Her was dressed up in European closing at

8:02

the end of philosophy books to block a

8:04

photograph of her. then because she was a

8:06

rarity lit the important thing about her was

8:08

jammed into All of us have said she

8:11

was the last so from that we can

8:13

take the a runner more weed on a

8:15

do I buy them anymore So sad, so

8:17

sad. such a sad story. It's not the

8:19

real story was of course no one was

8:22

gonna tell. I mean the idea was that

8:24

they just say did away somehow. And.

8:26

So I wanted to show this very

8:28

resilient woman who had lived to be

8:31

nearly seventy years old, which in that

8:33

in the mid nineteenth centuries. Astonishing.

8:36

For anybody, any woman,

8:38

And. Had never succumb to

8:40

being somebody servants, somebody slays,

8:42

never anglicised and name she

8:44

was very much for a

8:46

woman right. To Leann the

8:48

last. What she. Was. Fabulous sparked the

8:50

destruction of her entire world and those

8:53

who has a around it. well. Enough

8:55

the apocalypse that happened around her. that's

8:57

right, sees the great survivor and she

8:59

wasn't of course the only survivor. They

9:02

were other women in the best I'd

9:04

islands who survived and from them we

9:06

get. The current has my. Aboriginal

9:08

community. What? We know about

9:10

a different circumstances in which he said about

9:13

how she wanted her remains to be treated

9:15

after his demo. When she was the last

9:17

person living down at oyster cause see

9:19

fond of friendship with the local with

9:21

the cause minister and he's to take

9:23

of fishing tater of the sea oil

9:25

had to be taken over to her

9:27

home country which was Bruni island and

9:29

so he has to take about one

9:31

day. she made him stop brian the

9:33

middle of is very deep channels it

9:35

dawns a cast a child and she got

9:37

our hands and knees and she said.

9:40

Barry. Me Here is the deepest

9:42

place. Promise me. Promise me. is

9:45

the deeps price. Promised me. Promise

9:47

for. So they can't get my buddy.

9:50

And then she said the people

9:52

in Hobart have taken taken every

9:54

one skulls and now that won't

9:56

mind. What?

9:58

Happens. In. The and. The the have

10:00

to see what as he died and well they

10:02

little it's open. A big scramble to get

10:04

the body mostly the Royal Society of

10:06

Tell My New had applied for other

10:09

bodies and the government was determined she

10:11

would be properly. Bury. So the had

10:13

a secret burial in a supposedly

10:15

secret place which was that prison.

10:17

Behind. High prison walls and that

10:19

she was supposed to be safe

10:22

in their but two years later

10:24

she was secretly zoomed and many

10:26

years after that her complete skeleton

10:28

was put on display in them

10:30

Tasmania Museum To. Noticing that was a kid.

10:32

I believe I sword and then I

10:34

learnt when I first wrote my first

10:36

book I corrected that I thought I

10:39

must have dreamt that eyesore because apparently

10:41

been taken off display the is that

10:43

I was born but other people too

10:45

many of the people who buy respect

10:47

have told me to say sore it

10:49

in the fifties and sixties so I

10:51

think I put it back on display

10:53

because it was the most important thing

10:55

that has. And when she put under spires

10:58

like some kind of scientific curiosity. She.

11:00

Was put on display as the last. Don't

11:02

mistake, there are a more of them we

11:04

don't need to I about them. they're robots

11:06

and a gone because I was so primitive

11:09

and so if someone like her continue to

11:11

survive you couldn't run that narratives. It was

11:13

inevitable as they would die out. the was

11:15

an act of genocide. It was inevitable. That

11:17

I would buy a so so she was put

11:19

on display. Not as assigned to be said to

11:21

the political one. really. It was like to say

11:23

it's finished experienced in fact that last minute a

11:25

series of the on the get rough. The tasmanian

11:28

dealings with all of the skeletal remains

11:30

that they thought. and then the the

11:32

pictures everything has Think that's the message.

11:34

This was the end. This is it.

11:36

This is a race of people who

11:38

disappeared from the size of earth somehow

11:40

or other, and we don't have to

11:42

worry about the manual. So.

11:44

You written this policy of pregnancy?

11:47

This resourceful woman who survived to

11:49

the to seventy despite everything that

11:51

was going on around her. When.

11:54

Did you realize they must be more to the store? Well

11:57

I was about to send off my manuscript

11:59

and I said. We thought I better

12:01

go and look at the papers of

12:03

Enzo Be plumlee who had transcribe. Robinson's

12:05

journals on which I'd realized. So much

12:07

in case of made a mistake or and

12:09

case I've missed something. So. I'm

12:12

up in this tiny museum in Launceston,

12:14

thumbing through always paper and suddenly I

12:16

saw this. Transcribe leather that

12:19

Plumlee had scarcely transcribe.

12:21

From own lawyer. I vaguely

12:23

the adults morton Old Port in which

12:25

he said. In a

12:27

museum in Hobart? I. Have

12:30

a perfect skeleton. Of.

12:32

An aboriginal woman. Her.

12:35

Name was Patty. I knew her well

12:37

he wrote and this skeleton is perfect

12:39

because she was never buried. Who.

12:42

Was this more open to read the letter?

12:44

Well he was the only son of a

12:46

very famous. Early settlers family the

12:49

all Port family. He was a

12:51

lawyer like his father was in.

12:53

His mother was an artist and

12:55

he was very interested in collecting

12:57

for very early age and he

12:59

collected Silas Same live staffed. Skeletons

13:02

He collected other things that he sent

13:04

off to museums because he knew he

13:06

would always live out his life in

13:08

this place at the end of the

13:11

world. But what he really wanted was

13:13

recognition from scientific organizations in England and

13:15

he got them by sending them. Human

13:17

remains so you say he he promised by

13:20

the he'd written word where he said he

13:22

was pleased to say he was in possession

13:24

of a skill us and full skeleton of

13:26

an average woman called passes who was patty

13:29

she was very close. Friend of tagging

13:31

a nice What? this a number of

13:33

quite famous photograph taken at least cousin

13:35

very often three women in them, patty,

13:37

Bessie and Frog in any see what

13:40

had the poorest constitutions and see was

13:42

several times taken to the hospital in

13:44

towns and the last time there was

13:46

a scramble. forget her body space to

13:48

people apply to the Klein your secretary's

13:51

to get the body once he died.

13:53

one of them with William crowd the

13:55

surgeon in towns and the other one

13:57

was the Royal Society of Tasmania. The

14:00

new museum was run by Morton. all thought

14:02

I'd get so she's not even did and

14:04

is a lot of interest in her because

14:06

she's quite ill about who can get hold

14:08

of her remains. What do we know of

14:10

the circumstances of his. Well but I knew

14:13

and I rise that dragon any was that

14:15

she died in hospital bought and say and

14:17

so it's only when I made a said

14:19

I have to ask myself. I'll

14:22

what what? I thought our Santa Bear

14:24

is like a lot and I realized

14:26

not only had I not seen a

14:28

burial or this it is it gets

14:30

so petty and then the same ones

14:32

that anyone. Except

14:34

Sunday and any months later

14:36

this as long before he

14:39

died and Billy's any again

14:41

later before then know death

14:43

certificates. Know they'll records.

14:46

So. Sued for hims are you had been taken

14:48

from was the cove to not sought that's a

14:50

hard time to the house austria up to her

14:52

buckeye and and it has to died in that

14:54

hospital. Dot in the hospital and according to

14:56

the hospital records to then I went

14:59

looking state ordered a porpoise coffin for

15:01

her and that very day she was

15:03

putting his coffin and taken to a

15:05

pauper graveyards. Two things about this this

15:07

or she should have been returned. To

15:09

oyster cause. The superintendent or

15:11

to cove was never told about his

15:13

who made the decision to bury her

15:16

in the pool as grave and

15:18

actually they're actually ah records of burials

15:20

in that. Way. To pull the

15:22

graveyard was in is no record of her being

15:24

breezy. Because. She wasn't buried

15:26

there, they put her in a coffin or

15:29

rotten, just took it off to wherever they

15:31

took her body to get the skeleton out

15:33

of. It said the red could say

15:35

that she was buried in a little

15:37

boost coffin in a pool prescribe in

15:39

Hobart. What you believe

15:41

happened to her black eyes. She died.

15:43

I know. Exactly. What happened because he

15:45

taught says what happened this month was never

15:48

buried. We kept the skeleton out of her

15:50

body. So. After she died were

15:52

was her body most likely taken in

15:54

a. The to the building that they

15:56

had the museum in or disused part

15:58

of the hospital. There's plenty

16:01

of surgeons. including

16:03

the longstanding honorary secretary.

16:05

Of the Royal Society. she could do the

16:07

job. They. Was this one

16:09

thing about ordering the coffins? I think they

16:12

probably did put her in a coffee they

16:14

get out of the hospital but she never

16:16

went into the Grace. So.

16:19

This before suffocation of record. Cs Lewis

16:21

and she wants to have been buried

16:23

in wants to cove not even sooner

16:25

than she should have been, But. No.

16:28

A decision was made to make it

16:31

seem as as she was going to

16:33

be buried Nepal describe in Hobart nobody

16:35

really looks into pulled his grades after

16:37

all, that's what they are paupers. But

16:40

the interesting thing is, I've then began

16:42

to realize that every body that came

16:44

into the mold of the hospital and

16:47

wasn't claimed. Was. See a

16:49

game for surgeons to work on,

16:51

and every aboriginal body that had

16:54

come through that hospital had probably

16:56

suffered the same site. So.

16:58

Her body had been spirited

17:01

away by disorganization. The Royal

17:03

Society of Tasmania yet was

17:05

the Royal Society of Tasmania?

17:07

Cassandra? Well it was the first Royal

17:09

Society outside of Britain the first one.

17:11

It was very prestigious and everybody who's

17:13

anybody wanted to belong to. It's. Like

17:15

most burrow society been dedicated to scientific

17:18

endeavor and I researched same thing for

17:20

Tasmania. Though loyal and had

17:22

royal assent so they set up

17:24

this museum and began selling it

17:26

up with various things in. the

17:28

things I most wanted was aboriginal

17:30

remains. The fact that these reminds

17:33

of that he had been spirited

17:35

away her scuttling had been extradited

17:37

from her corpse by the Royal

17:39

Society of Tasmania. Would sing

17:41

a government seekers has at least

17:43

been away or even have perused

17:45

of this Clint decided. Quite a

17:47

legal product. Every ones is on

17:50

the council's the Royal Society has

17:52

nine. It was also a member

17:54

of a the the Legislative Council

17:56

older houses assembly in the new

17:58

Tasmanian Parliament's. The Premier was

18:01

certainly aware of that, because when

18:03

William Crowther found out about it,

18:05

he wrote this anguished lesser saying:

18:07

you let the Royal Society spirit

18:09

of body away and. Clans,

18:12

Stein Manner and you had promised

18:14

that body to me. And so

18:16

the next time a body came

18:18

out, the body of Billie Lanny

18:20

known as King Billie supposedly de

18:22

Los Tasmanian Miles. The same tussle

18:24

went on with the same state

18:27

premier. The. Royal Society wanted

18:29

his body willing crowd the one of his.

18:31

Body. So this this demand

18:33

completely isolated zoned for. Aboriginal

18:35

been deemed this is the eighteen sixties

18:37

were talking about it. Why

18:40

was this so much

18:43

fuss and under handedness

18:45

and clandestine activity? Around

18:48

the remains of an impoverished

18:50

aversion, a woman like Patty.

18:53

Peebles had been collecting the skeletal

18:55

remains of aboriginal people in Tasmania

18:58

from the moment that they landed

19:00

there. The moment they landed there,

19:02

Why them in particular? Because. They

19:04

were believed to be unique

19:06

race nine no way connected

19:08

to the people on the

19:10

mainland. A unique race that

19:12

was the most primitive people

19:14

non to humankind say believe

19:17

that they were. or they

19:19

made up stories that they

19:21

were. Below. Stone Age

19:23

men. So in terms of what

19:25

you wanted in your museum, the

19:27

most desirable object if you're trying

19:29

to make a case about why

19:31

we the British white male ends

19:33

up at the top of the

19:35

pile you want their bones to

19:37

say he is a unique race

19:40

of people. Still have you gone

19:42

about the silas same imagine what

19:44

people thought about as extinct race

19:46

of people that you could still

19:48

get your hands on. This

19:51

body snatching that's going on in hope that.

19:54

I'm always reminded of when you when you told

19:56

me about this of the body snatching tried that

19:58

was going on in England at the. The

20:00

famous resurrection, the symbolical rest huge demand

20:02

for for these for the ecologist of

20:04

anatomy in Britain and so that his

20:07

grave robbing that was done to produce

20:09

these cops as which led him in

20:11

inevitably to reservations murdering people to produce.

20:13

and so this was this something kind

20:16

of this was known at the time

20:18

was the only unsavory a bad into.

20:20

Seeing as a lot of on saving us

20:22

about it on one of the things that

20:25

William crowd against very upset about this the

20:27

accusation that he's a resurrection man. City

20:29

home and. Yes, He did

20:31

not think anybody a pile of the

20:33

brain is actually more know put it

20:35

is that right from the very beginning

20:37

colonial surgeons we're working on aboriginal bodies

20:40

to send the bonds back to England.

20:42

From the very beginning the first surgeon

20:44

he was an ankle state amount that

20:46

and after some aboriginal people were killed

20:48

in a for a very early on

20:50

in a scene of for he packed

20:52

their bones into highest cost and sent

20:54

them up to Sydney and I think

20:56

they ended up in the hands of

20:59

sir. Joseph Banks suggests of Bank says

21:01

in the Just Banks have voiced

21:03

breathe Captain James Cook on The

21:05

Endeavour. He was very interested in

21:07

collecting human remains. You.

21:10

Mentioned there that when that his body was

21:13

headed over to the Royal Society because I

21:15

knew there was this doctor, William Crowther in

21:17

her body was serious about it because he

21:19

wanted to for himself who was with him

21:21

Crowther and tell me where his interest came

21:24

from. Say. That outsider in the elite

21:26

society and it's really hard to work

21:28

out why? Because he comes from a

21:30

very prestigious family in England, but his

21:33

father was and right and a troublemaker

21:35

and he's that sort of passed on

21:37

to him and he says he's a

21:40

convenient. Scapegoat in some respects because.

21:42

He's never been part of the I late

21:44

in the same way that everybody else is.

21:47

Always a slot me unsavory background Iran so he

21:49

was an outsider and hot and I saw society

21:51

such as a more said that are interesting thing

21:53

with. For me is that he

21:55

was my ancestors business partner down

21:57

at voice to cause he had.

22:00

Infants at least cause he had whaling

22:02

ships. as a timber industry he had

22:04

fingers in many pies. the he employed

22:06

a number of the aboriginal men there

22:08

and so he drew the line at

22:10

kind of thing out the graves, but

22:13

it was commonplace the surgeons to take

22:15

the bodies as a date out of

22:17

the high but more his think there

22:19

was anything particular out about that and

22:21

also he knew that the premier had

22:23

already allowed the Royal Society do the

22:25

same thing when, so he didn't think

22:27

there was anything particularly odd about what.

22:30

He was doing. Or just so. the rules is the

22:32

prime. You can do this for the rules sort of Tasmania.

22:34

What's up I do it for me for. But why was

22:36

William Crowther. So. Keen on procuring

22:38

have the skills and who did he wanted

22:40

for. The Preeminent

22:42

Museum. For. These

22:45

kinds of scientific specimens was

22:47

the Royal College of Surgeons

22:49

in London, and the direct

22:51

of the Royal College of

22:53

Surgeons was so William Flower

22:55

resume Crowther had dessert quite

22:57

good relationship had he been

22:59

sending him while skeletons because

23:01

he had whaling ships. He

23:03

helped develop this correspondence about,

23:05

while the Mile skeletons and

23:07

then slyly Flower had insisted

23:10

in the middle of this

23:12

conversation about while skills and.

23:14

He wouldn't by any chance be

23:16

able to get me to aboriginal

23:18

skeletons male and female. And.

23:20

Went to grab the sight of that. Piece. Said

23:23

it shouldn't be too difficult to dig

23:25

them up from. Ways to cause. And

23:27

why did he say that? Because.

23:29

He knew that the Governor had

23:31

already been digging up the graves

23:33

of voice to cause to send

23:35

them to the Secretary of State,

23:37

the Duke of Newcastle to give.

23:39

To Oxford University. So Oxford

23:42

University wanted This remains as

23:44

well. And Cambridge and Cambridge.

23:46

But what was going to stand in the

23:48

why have him de gea up Graves at

23:50

Voice to cope with the local people get

23:53

a figure that. Well, there's it.

23:55

Some correspondents around that. In.

23:57

Which the superintendent rights to the

23:59

governor's. To say. We've. Gotta

24:01

be very secretive about is because

24:03

if it gets out they'll be

24:06

troubled. The local people believe that

24:08

desecrated. A graveyard is a grave sin. You

24:10

read that in a letter. Sick

24:13

will read a letter like that. We gotta be

24:15

very careful about how we get hold of these

24:18

bonds because it's so much leverage. More people find

24:20

out about the horror of not just the local

24:22

aboriginal people, the local people, the settlers as well

24:24

will be horrified. First.

24:26

Of the people who live here in

24:28

we terrible for them because you can't

24:30

interfere with their bodies after death and

24:32

the other one is in the local

24:34

people. The settlers who might be able

24:36

to help us dig them up will

24:38

be horrified to because I consider to

24:40

be desecrating a graveyard. So. They

24:42

knew absolutely new and what did to

24:45

me was it's early but my heart

24:47

because I thought John Dandridge who was

24:49

the superintendent was a good man. So

24:51

would empower the Doctor William Crowther. He wants

24:54

these bodies because get them from the burial

24:56

ground as or to cause for. He's made

24:58

this kind of lavish promise to his friend

25:00

Doctor William Flower in England. all yes I

25:03

can get hold of to aboriginal skeletons for

25:05

you. It's always planned be if he couldn't

25:07

get him out of the ground in west

25:10

Coast. Had. Them sent to the hospital had the

25:12

msi the hospital and then he get their bodies

25:14

out of the hospital morgue. Said in a playful

25:16

sake. A person who pulls at the point is we

25:18

must get them to the hospital vote. To flower

25:20

to say. He told the acting premier

25:22

who was a friend of his to bite

25:24

to oyster Cars and tell him that

25:26

if any of the old women cel six

25:29

I were to be put into the

25:31

hospital and then once they're in the hospital

25:33

l get the best intentions. For me, it's

25:35

especially after death. And

25:42

broadcasts. This

25:45

conversation. With

25:48

recent seidler. You

25:51

mention their that the University of Oxford.

25:54

In. The Uk was also

25:56

in on the scramble for

25:58

Tasmanian human remains. How had their

26:00

anatomy school reached out to far away Tasmania to

26:02

get hold of some of these through the Due

26:04

to. Newcastle, To probably had

26:07

was a patron but he was also

26:09

the six two sets of the colonies

26:11

and he had control over the dubner

26:13

of than dame is land who made

26:15

already removed from being the governor of

26:17

New Zealand's and the governor's anti muslim

26:19

was desperate to get back into his

26:21

good books so he just wrote a

26:23

letter and said. Can

26:26

you to to me it to

26:28

Tasmanian skulls male and female for

26:30

the. Oxford University and that?

26:32

It isn't it. It's and

26:35

this Governor of Tasmania Go

26:37

brown. He. Was able to supply these

26:39

two skulls. How the way to. Explore was that

26:41

two years of kind of trying to because

26:43

initially obviously although not seen the lead dandridge

26:46

the superintendent at least the cause said no

26:48

no no, you can interfere with the grads.

26:50

While there's still people living here, it would

26:52

be too shocking And so they try and

26:55

find out where with Grace would be on

26:57

Flinders Islands. I couldn't work out where they

26:59

were and they did get one stall I

27:02

thought might be aboriginal but the couldn't. Authenticate

27:04

it's so then slay. The only way to

27:06

get some was the Grays. The voice. To

27:09

Cause. And they did get them out of the

27:11

graceless to cause. And they sent them

27:13

to Oxford that they got five skulls

27:15

and so they had skulls in excess.

27:18

Ah that they kept in the down

27:20

the had in his office. For a

27:22

while and then the Royal Society Tasmania

27:24

work knew about this and eventually said

27:26

will they should be an Owl Museum

27:29

Skulls of evers Me the Tasmanian people

27:31

shut up in Paris surrounds same time

27:33

of the Museum of Natural History. actually

27:35

even earlier in the eighteen forties. Yeah,

27:38

What? We know about how that

27:40

happened, how the skulls my they

27:42

were trainer ships that came into

27:44

Hobart. Ah the couple's France, France

27:47

exploring expeditions. That came into Hobart

27:49

and got very friendly with or

27:51

the assistant colonial certain. A

27:53

man called bed said Dr. Bid

27:56

said who had been the produce.

27:58

I asked his clone your. The

28:00

region whom I think must have collected

28:02

dozens and dozens of aboriginal skulls and

28:04

other people's cars as well. By the

28:06

way, And. He had

28:08

this collection and every friendship that list

28:11

left with a collection of Tasmanian skulls.

28:13

The friendships was had these next solas

28:15

on board. I was very interested in

28:18

natural history but the others with skulls

28:20

that have been collected earlier and there

28:22

was another person who was collecting skulls

28:24

to who's also a famous. Australian

28:27

Tasmanian handle friend and famous.

28:29

That full of called Ronald see guns

28:31

and. A couple of the skulls

28:33

are identified as coming from him. One

28:36

of them sexy got his name

28:38

written across the skull. Ah, so

28:40

we know that they came from

28:42

these two people who were. Active.

28:45

In the establishment of what became

28:47

the Royal Society of Tasmania was

28:50

system little scientific Society established by

28:52

Lady Jane Franklin and these two

28:54

people bedford and gun were very

28:57

active in that. And. So

28:59

was more know ports father said service

29:01

try to. Been going for quite some

29:03

time. Is started with assists settlements

29:06

both it in the north and

29:08

in the south. They both shipped

29:10

out aboriginal remains within months. Off.

29:13

Or Settlement and they both ended up

29:15

in the hands of Joseph Banks who

29:17

is the driver of this. Try it.

29:21

I didn't. Sixty Nine. The. Man

29:23

known as the Team Billie William

29:25

Lenny the last so called see

29:27

blooded Tasmanian aboriginal man but he

29:29

stays to me a bit about

29:31

this man can believe. He's

29:35

the last survivor of a family

29:37

of people from the north West

29:39

of Tasmania who had been living

29:41

out. Alone. In

29:44

the wilderness long after everyone

29:46

else had been shipped off

29:48

to Flinders Island. and eventually

29:50

adolescent men and one adolescent

29:53

woman who. I think gone

29:55

off with some sealers because she's a first

29:57

person to be and up at on send

29:59

Us island and. In her family just

30:01

come out of the bush and say.

30:04

You. Know here's a guy of Bristol here. Is so

30:06

hes And they died of course almost immediately.

30:08

I mean because I just hadn't had any

30:10

contact with European diseases and they when they

30:13

got there they found all of their. Relatives

30:15

were dead and or the shocking. Store

30:17

it. And. So there's a couple of

30:20

survivors go to waste a cause and one

30:22

of them. Billie. Is sent

30:24

to the often. School supposedly to be

30:26

Christianized, an educated. And the

30:28

other to die at. The ones a

30:30

baby and the other one is that

30:33

part of an older sixteen year old

30:35

die at or suppose, but there's no

30:37

record, say, just not there. Anymore.

30:39

And so he's the survival of. Already.

30:43

Very. Traumatic situation reverse had thought it's

30:45

a good with how to be Mike

30:47

is why in the world. Well

30:50

he was some. A while.

30:52

I mean he. He's probably first started

30:54

wailing with William Crowther and then moved

30:56

on to another welling captain and he

30:58

was a very good while. us the

31:01

wailing community thought highly of him, but

31:03

he became an alcoholic. I think in

31:05

his late adolescence everybody had always cove

31:07

was an alcoholic say was this huge

31:10

trade and. Alcohol by the

31:12

been a would cut us in

31:14

the for employers my ancestor. Run

31:16

outlawed, right? Or I cycled, softening the

31:18

familiar. Story. In an Australian

31:21

History. And so he will.

31:23

He had a serious thing him problem

31:25

which really undermined his health and so

31:27

of when he was only in his

31:30

late thirties and he came back from

31:32

a long wailing voyage and very quickly.

31:35

Complained of thing ill and seems to

31:37

have died of some. Kind of

31:39

bacterial infection in his stomach and

31:41

where did he dies? He. Died in

31:43

a his the usual pod that he

31:45

stayed in when he came back from

31:48

white wailing trips and as soon as

31:50

he was dead William Crowther turned up

31:52

in the pub. How he knew we

31:54

don't know but said oh we must

31:56

take him to the hospital Now this

31:58

is interesting because if somebody done. The.

32:01

Undertaker is cold and the undertaker take

32:03

some and say don't go the hospital

32:06

in only people.in a hospital and up

32:08

in a hostile most but he was

32:10

already dead and they took him to

32:12

the hospital morgue. Now. Why would

32:14

they do that? Rothys already dead in

32:16

a already. Dead because I don't want him

32:18

to go into the crash ons. They want the

32:20

body. And what happened to his body wants it was

32:22

admitted to the movie. Well, there was a

32:24

tussle. letters flying back and forth about.

32:27

You know the world society demands that

32:29

because we've already got one skeleton, we

32:31

need his skeletons make appear as they

32:33

are arguments. And William, how the said

32:35

you promised me on you promised me

32:38

that I could. Had this for the

32:40

Royal College of Surgeons in London and

32:42

that's. Much more important, And

32:45

so the premier doesn't know quite which way to

32:47

jump so I think the best thing to do

32:49

is get him buried in the ground and then

32:51

when it's all over town with then the Royal

32:53

Society kinda exam that body and and and crowd

32:55

the can go down. So I. Suppose and get

32:57

somebody some. Down there fits crowd is not

33:00

prepared to this and so he goes

33:02

into the hospital that night cause he's

33:04

got access to the hospital. He's and

33:06

Henri surge in there with his son

33:08

and takes a hit. More.

33:10

Goalie season than that he cuts out and

33:12

hit takes the skulls and cuts out and

33:14

the head of one it is deceased. Patience.

33:17

And substitutes another skull inside the

33:19

skull of so that he can

33:21

be. Buried looking like is still

33:23

intact. Good got. These.

33:26

Are the links These people of puppets got sick

33:28

gets. Worse well that when this a

33:30

sound out the Royal Society are outraged

33:32

and so they go on into the

33:34

hospital and get of the director of

33:36

the hospital to cut off the hands.

33:39

And then they decide that we better go back and

33:42

get the as well. So.

33:44

By the time that there's

33:46

this huge big public. Parade.

33:49

For the burial of the

33:51

last Tasmanian Mail, he is

33:54

headless. handlers, foot less, That's.

33:57

How he was inserted. His.

34:00

Com it up so that you can't see the

34:02

hands and feet. and then he still got this

34:04

loose scala in his head so that when the

34:06

chief mourners who as a whaling ship captains is

34:08

pay for the funeral. Wanna. Look

34:10

at the body because they're suspicious. they're

34:12

only allowed it's quick glimpse and I

34:14

still think there's something wrong with it.

34:17

But. He gets buried in the next day.

34:19

People are walking through the graveyard and what

34:21

did I find that the skull lying on

34:24

the ground will? This is a skull of

34:26

the white man that they don't want. The

34:28

body has been taken out of the grave

34:30

and disappeared. Oh. My god

34:32

so they buried buried his body with

34:35

the psych skull inside of his head

34:37

It's hard and then what the great

34:39

was ransacked that the the only thing

34:41

that in what was the white man's

34:43

skull as I just us to discuss

34:45

it aside and was the republican rule

34:47

that was reports. And that's where

34:49

the interesting thing begins to happen. You

34:51

need to know that the members of

34:53

the Royal Society also members of the

34:55

government. There are also members of the

34:58

hospital board that it's a very incestuous.

35:00

World. And so they

35:02

want to protect their own and so they

35:04

going to a point the finger at the

35:06

one person who isn't in that group and

35:09

that's William Crowther. And so he gets the

35:11

blame for everything. And. That

35:13

stories all over the Mercury, which

35:15

of course goes on to be

35:17

the only newspaper in Southern Tasmania

35:20

and the archives of the new

35:22

Mercury have been a basic source.

35:24

For. Historians writing about this

35:26

and they think that's the story.

35:29

But. I discovered that that wasn't the

35:31

story tall. isn't that the that? Actually, it

35:33

was quite reasonably well known in Hobart at

35:36

the time that it was. The Royal Society

35:38

has taken the body of what was left

35:40

of the body. Because. I

35:42

keep writing letters to London asking

35:44

to get the skull back so

35:47

they can have a complete skeleton

35:49

because as the Mercury says, The

35:52

body of Philly Lanny as worthless

35:54

without the head, Worthless without

35:56

the his. What

36:00

can be done with got the Royal Society at that

36:02

point How would I what? What? What could they do

36:04

with a where they heard it in a box? I

36:07

just put the bones and a box and kept rising.

36:09

For years and years and years they kept

36:11

trying to the Royal Society's The Place in

36:13

London. Who didn't have it because

36:15

William quell the held on to the skull.

36:18

And. Eventually, his son sent it to

36:20

Edinburgh. But they

36:22

didn't know that and so that's that

36:24

was his sort of revenge against them.

36:26

He held onto it. Because.

36:28

Swim Flower didn't want the

36:30

skull because he already had

36:33

wait for it. about seventeen

36:35

Tasmanian skulls. He didn't want

36:37

a skull. He wanted a

36:39

full scale isaf. Swim

36:43

eighteen Seventy I It's. The. Rules:

36:45

The Saudi Tasmania were able to procure. For.

36:47

Going to Nice skills and person like you said.

36:50

But. Modern all ports. The lawyer here the

36:52

center of the stride was to did to

36:54

enjoy strong because in died at the relatively

36:57

young age of forty eight. What?

36:59

Was said about modern or force. Well,

37:01

the mercury went on about how significant

37:03

he wasn't, how he had all these

37:06

little booze, a cellos, the Royal Society,

37:08

a solo of the Royal College of

37:10

Surgeons, a sell out of the An

37:12

Anthropological Societies Othello as a as a

37:15

Logical Society Othello, The Road Geographic Society

37:17

got all of these solicit. Some sending.

37:20

Them and remains of course. But

37:22

there was another weekly news paper didn't

37:25

last very long. kind of putting a

37:27

different spin on it and the spin

37:29

on it they put with said he

37:31

was a resurrection us he basically what

37:33

they that the what they actually said

37:35

about him was in the case of

37:38

Billie Lanny. the saddle was never put

37:40

on the ride horse and it is

37:42

to a member of the bar namely

37:44

a lawyer rather than a member of

37:46

the medical profession that serve. A

37:49

headless. Corpse. Of William

37:51

Lenny. Belongs to belonged.

37:54

So basically what they were saying and

37:56

that kind of convoluted nineteenth century way

37:58

was. That. More.

38:00

Know port had been a person who'd taken

38:02

William and. His body out of the grace and

38:04

I've Sara Lee believe that to be the case.

38:07

So. This is not wondered. Several conspiracies

38:09

to steal these skeletal remains and

38:11

sorry them Out of Tasmania and

38:13

the families involved, the Governor's involved

38:15

senior medical figures are involved or

38:17

the seeing a scientific figures are

38:19

involved. I'm a senior and respectable

38:21

people in the colony of Tasmania

38:23

and the i think seventies at

38:25

deeply implicated in what is by

38:27

the centers of their own time.

38:30

Criminal. Activity he isn't in

38:32

the removal of of these bonds.

38:34

And and it's immoral, You

38:36

know, by Christian teaching, so it

38:38

isn't just illegally see moral. It's

38:41

not that hard. Some of the want to stand

38:43

what's motivating these people. this greed and ambition that

38:46

they are. That's that's the is that. What?

38:48

Else is there? Whatever. When when they

38:50

you admit which other what's animating themselves

38:53

if is it some kind of spurious

38:55

senses scientific inquiry? What is it? What?

38:57

What? What That they used to justify

39:00

this ghastly bite? You

39:02

seem right. It's of the law stocks. The

39:04

answer as well. They does. I.

39:06

Mean. The. Spinoff from that

39:08

whole idea of just the thrill

39:11

of the talents of findings have

39:13

seen that. The. World Most. Won't

39:15

Are you going of a collector's mania? So

39:19

the people in says they as as far as

39:21

I can see have no real. So.

39:24

Scientists interest in his. It's the thrill

39:26

of getting the soul of finding out

39:28

and getting. It so was the much

39:30

scientific inquiry will have whatever nights here.

39:32

Who is even those kind of based

39:34

on pseudoscience into these remains was the

39:37

reverse. much estate. Measured the skulls in

39:39

the nineteenth centuries as a vast amounts of

39:41

Scotland measuring dying Aunts but that didn't lead

39:43

them They saw because the told him that

39:45

the skulls of. This. Terribly

39:47

primitive race of people supposedly from Tasmania

39:50

with the same. As the skulls people

39:52

in the current England and that wasn't very

39:54

helpful to our got so there were ended

39:56

up submit the runway like the frame of

39:58

say find case was designed and. Resigns

40:00

So then I see it hit upon a

40:02

better way of proving how it primitives I

40:05

work which was shipped. Rocks. You know,

40:07

these poor people, they could only

40:09

used as tools. chipped rocks, And

40:11

they shipped tons and tons and

40:13

tons and tons of rocks out

40:15

of Tasmania. and there's still in

40:17

museums all around the world. These

40:20

chipped. Rocks that show how primitive.

40:22

Tasmanian people were south. This all kinds

40:24

of reasons that you can put forward

40:27

as to why was it so important?

40:30

To have these people who was

40:32

so primitive that they were more

40:34

primitive than the earliest form of

40:37

Paleolithic. man? What? It really suited

40:39

the British, because then you couldn't

40:41

be accused of genocide. Could to?

40:43

I mean they would just not capable of

40:45

living in the modern world of a festive

40:48

land, that a treaty or anything like that.

40:50

I mean says that the that you know

40:52

the g word as never supposed to be

40:54

applied. In this in this situation. I

40:56

apply it, but I can't see any other

40:59

way to read it actually. So.

41:01

We've been talking about all these reminds and skulls

41:03

being. Carried. Off to. Museums.

41:06

In Oxford, in Paris, they're more in

41:08

Brussels and other places all over the

41:10

world. Of as to where. Well,

41:13

Michael Mann soul starting in

41:15

the late nineteen seventies and

41:17

right through to the early

41:19

two thousand and spearheaded the

41:21

most amazing consistent. You know

41:23

what Michael's like Consistent demands

41:25

to have a aboriginal ancestral

41:27

remains return to Tasmania and

41:29

they would the first of

41:31

the indigenous remains returns in

41:33

the world and so he's

41:35

to keep it off the

41:37

whole repatriation movement and so

41:39

most still have It was

41:41

returned but some. All it

41:43

was. Not. Return for reasons that

41:46

they might say oh, we didn't know We

41:48

have it. That's. Oxford. A lot

41:50

we refuse returner. That's Cambridge.

41:52

five at Cambridge, three at

41:54

Oxford. and there are still

41:56

refused to return the stuff.

41:58

All you know was much more. It was much

42:01

more secure not in the museum and

42:03

besides for a long time the argument

42:05

was that these people are all extinct.

42:07

They don't have any descendants. Who? Who

42:09

who cares about what a in. Of

42:11

a with that waited to see to not the

42:13

man was I a bad sign Mumbo jumbo and

42:15

what have you it's really and of what so

42:17

what have I have a have a ready to

42:19

return at that. I ah but there are

42:22

now huge hurdles that has to be

42:24

jump through because the lawyers are involved.

42:26

A nice and they say has to

42:28

be returned to the people who can

42:30

prove that they are their ancestors. Now

42:32

this is a much bigger issue for

42:35

people in other parts of Australia with

42:37

are also a huge amounts of remains

42:39

still to be repatriated. It's because least

42:41

in Tasmania they were pretty clear about

42:43

who these people world. But in.

42:46

South Australia or the non taxing

42:48

West Australian queens. As there was

42:50

just in a free for all

42:52

and so museums in Australia. enough

42:54

filling up with repatriated human remains

42:56

that they don't know what to

42:58

do with. This. Is

43:00

a real terrible source of exotic

43:02

spices. Been on I feel awkward.

43:04

About talking about it but then I'm

43:06

I had been encouraged by first nations

43:09

lead us to talk about A because

43:11

it's it's about says telling you know

43:13

we gotta complain about this stuff. I

43:15

like it is I'm it is very

43:17

shocking and it's is. Very. Traumatized Adam

43:19

in the story I'm in the fact that

43:22

this reminds have yet to be answered the

43:24

phone auto properly and served us well. The

43:26

thing is, it's important for them to be entered.

43:29

In. The country. And. So

43:31

is a huge business to

43:33

establish what back country might

43:36

be. Just

43:38

take the museum. A South Australia has

43:40

one one case in points of got

43:42

thousands and thousands of bonds in there

43:44

that they are trying to work out

43:47

that had repatriate. We're.

43:49

Talking. Very. Early on about

43:51

Tiger Many Hoops biography road. And.

43:54

How of just before she died while she

43:56

was and about going across the don't focused

43:58

on. Process. It

44:00

had. Pleaded. With.

44:03

Someone. To have her remains in

44:05

third and right in the middle of that. Channel.

44:09

What did become of her remains they. Were

44:11

cremated which is the traditional way of

44:13

dealing with the dead and amongst her

44:15

people and scattered at the very deepest

44:17

part of the don't a cast so

44:19

channel. It was a big struggle to

44:22

get to that point. I

44:24

think you said after she died the

44:26

remains were interred in a prison. Then

44:28

she was exhumed and her skull from

44:30

was put on display in the museum

44:32

in in Hobart. And then the son

44:35

of them minister who had written in

44:37

his diary what she had said to

44:39

him. Started a

44:41

campaign to have had taken off display

44:43

to have her wishes. And

44:46

he had to that he he's

44:48

been his father's dying wish, the

44:51

dragon and a be buried as

44:53

he had requested and that campaign

44:55

went on well into the Nineteen

44:57

fifties and then air through the

45:00

Nineteen sixties and the museum eventually

45:02

was taken to Ah, They

45:04

went to court to defend their right

45:07

to hold onto the meatball. Those I

45:09

didn't supposedly did not have it on

45:11

public display until the a Labour government

45:13

under Douglas past and act of parliament

45:15

to just Caesar salad sense and then

45:18

there was a big to do about.

45:20

oh this is such a rare an

45:22

important things that we cut from made

45:24

the body and again Michael Mansell, a

45:26

members of the Tasmanian Aboriginal community said

45:29

no no no no that's the traditional

45:31

way to deal her body nice to

45:33

date burnt so she. Can. Rejoin

45:35

her ancestors and she needs to be

45:37

basis per remains scattered on the don't.

45:40

A cast hotel on eventually They

45:42

Were is a hundred years after

45:44

she died in Nineteen Seventy Six.

45:48

The Royal Society because when you're still

45:50

institution that still going to die at

45:52

they've been I archive with acknowledging the

45:54

darkest real I have been very good

45:56

about it's very good about it's I

45:58

have made a very. Public and

46:00

heartfelt apology and they have really

46:03

turn the organization around. The night

46:05

invited me to talk about this

46:07

at the annual Last Annual General

46:09

Meeting and I was very. Impressed

46:12

with the responses that I got to start

46:14

to Australia's want to know about this. Do

46:16

was friend is really want to know that

46:18

the quite recent unpleasantness in her come back

46:21

to hundred and twenty five years or. Ah,

46:24

probably a lot of people

46:26

died but my you know

46:28

I adhere to the play

46:30

offs the first nations this

46:32

country To start telling the

46:34

truth. if we are going

46:36

to move forward, we do

46:38

need to understand where we

46:40

come from. We do need

46:42

to understand that we live

46:44

in this size glorious place

46:46

which really ranks among the

46:48

highest standards of living in

46:50

the world. And. Certainly

46:53

probably the safest. Because.

46:56

Of what we did to the first

46:58

people of this. Nation: And.

47:00

We are the benefits. Resolves a

47:03

shocking, shocking colonial story.

47:06

And we really have to stop. Putting.

47:08

Up The Colonial Narrative.

47:12

Because. It's painful to our

47:14

first nations people that we keep

47:16

telling these fairy stories about what

47:19

happened to them, that how we

47:21

harvested their bodies, about how we

47:24

committed terrible atrocities, Against them. Incessant

47:27

be hearing the story. The Center thank

47:29

you so much. Thank you for it's

47:32

it said. Report says book is called

47:34

a very secret Tried. On.

47:37

Richard Fidler. He's

47:45

been listening to a podcast have

47:48

conversations with Russet Lot. Go

47:53

to the website itheysay.net that

47:55

I used as conversation. And

48:08

conversation fans. You love a

48:10

fascinating character and there are

48:12

plenty in the story spies.

48:15

Lies and deception in an Outback

48:17

Australian town the countries may see

48:19

to the sky base is heating

48:21

on. The scenes of Alice Springs

48:23

is said. To town transformed

48:26

war and continues to

48:28

expand. Punjab is always

48:30

on usually target. Come

48:33

with May Alex fall weak to find

48:35

out what on Earth is happening in

48:37

my backyard. Why are these

48:39

services? Know what other. Spies.

48:42

In the Outback, seek it out and subscribe

48:45

on the A B C Listen app.