0:00

A Say Listen podcast,

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Radio news, music, and

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more. When.

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You're young. And you get plenty

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of advice from older people. About what

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you should go for. Watch.

0:14

Good ads and what you're not so good at?

0:17

The. Perhaps the best advice you can get. It.

0:20

Simply not listen to these free character

0:22

assessments from mostly well meaning people. When.

0:25

Rhonda Wilson was in her last is of

0:27

school. She. Received some career advice

0:30

the told her that she might quite at

0:32

best. Make. A good mother. That

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was about it. And yesterday

0:37

run the is a man. Then.

0:39

She's also a professor. Of

0:41

Nursing and I might see. With.

0:43

A Phd. And she's

0:46

just been elected President of the Astride In

0:48

College of Mental Health Nurses. So.

0:50

Run as bad as have a nice little sideline about from

0:52

being a mom? is it than that? But.

0:55

It's not like Rhonda Shukor fist the sky as

0:57

a young person and said i'll show you you

0:59

bastards. On. The simply found

1:01

itself pursuing the things that interested her.

1:04

And this letter from being a trainee nurse. To.

1:06

Psychiatric Messing. Thinking

1:09

about how to help people in rural

1:11

and aboriginal communities in Australia. Hi

1:14

Rhonda, Harvard's it. You're a country

1:16

girl. Tell you which part of.

1:18

Rural. New South Wales you grew up in. Ah grew

1:21

up in on anyone country. Ah,

1:23

the New England Type A Lance.

1:25

I'm a tiny little community called

1:27

want would be under half way

1:30

between Gore and Able Nazi. Far

1:32

away from Ah Madame, I still

1:34

think of it in miles at

1:36

fifty miles from On the Dial

1:39

and right next door to the

1:41

Cathedral Rock National Park. So very

1:43

beautiful landscape there and beautiful country.

1:46

What was the found? like? A It

1:48

was a sheep farm like grazing

1:50

farm. It was my my grandfather's

1:52

property and we were were living

1:54

on the property on a cottage

1:56

on the property surrounded by shape

1:58

and just that rural. Country last

2:00

saw. Does that mean you have super friends

2:02

when you're accusing us? Should have several states.

2:04

That for hims. I had a

2:06

lot of party lambs. And

2:08

I suppose one of things that we

2:11

really love to do as a family

2:13

was pick up all the at the

2:15

party lamb silver often blames that were

2:17

around the property and I remember one

2:19

you. We probably had about thirty two

2:22

party lambs that was a huge number

2:24

and him so I was gonna load

2:26

joy out of caring for those lambs.

2:28

didn't like it so much when they

2:30

got sent off for sale in the

2:33

country of course often you are you

2:35

know you the each round mace and

2:37

so. I wasn't very amenable

2:39

to. To eating the party lambs

2:41

that. I'd raise, did you come up with

2:43

nine cities for the last nail? Had name's

2:46

Every single one of them had name's It

2:48

was ridiculous. And one year

2:50

we decide. We were assigned

2:52

to run sword on names and so

2:54

we started to go through Disney characters

2:57

to to get sufficient names and I

2:59

suppose from that bets as to remember

3:01

this this little lamb it's name was

3:03

Donald Duck. Southern of it had a

3:06

real what. Donald

3:09

Duck's people who live on farms people

3:11

are on farm by by fun. something

3:13

to occupy themselves from from dawn until

3:16

bedtime was you mamluk? then. I

3:19

think it was. You know, the

3:21

incredibly busy and lost all. For

3:23

my mother, my my father. Dries

3:26

machinery, lot bulldozes and tractors on

3:28

on other properties contracting that work

3:30

for agricultural I work in that

3:32

way so that list my mother

3:34

at home caring for children and

3:36

some not like to die you

3:38

know we we had electricity and

3:41

as I said we we didn't

3:43

have the top toilet for some

3:45

time didn't have hot water on

3:47

I saw that it's i think

3:49

that was tossed see to raise

3:51

children and long hours by says

3:53

so. So so way of

3:56

keeping busy. Ah, in addition, To

3:58

all of those shows that needs. Done

4:00

if craft and so she

4:02

was an incredible crafts woman

4:04

and making lots and lots

4:06

of things. Lots of fiber

4:08

in particular was his harem.

4:11

Flavor. I ain't with all the

4:13

wolf on the seep on that.

4:15

Particular property see did a lot of spinning

4:17

at that time which was really a lot

4:19

of fun. Since. What your ambitions

4:21

read: Something larger than that. From time to

4:23

time, the knitting and yawning he removes. What

4:26

she was a passionate about mud

4:28

bricks as well as the mud bricks

4:30

episode. And so our

4:32

little school my mom woods at so

4:34

pass in that school the loss and

4:37

one of thing should help out with

4:39

was craft the of thing was music

4:41

lessons and singing but this particular use

4:43

he decided that the craft projects that

4:45

the school day to build a mud

4:47

hut to allow be more delightful say

4:49

what would you excavated the mud and

4:51

my recent to defy the more bite

4:53

them in the sun or sometimes when

4:55

in the sun. Roddick, them in the sun,

4:57

adobe breaks and what have you made? A

4:59

hot woods or business? Briggs little. Pot with

5:01

chimney and then once it was all

5:03

finished with it's backwards. We head and

5:06

stretch a busy intersection. You know the

5:08

kinds of bits and pieces that he

5:10

might need to. Have a fairly

5:12

major existence is a small small

5:14

hut with great copy health. The

5:16

schoolyard what you like it as

5:18

a school kid. How. Academically

5:21

involved with. Well,

5:23

I spend a lot of time Kiptyn.

5:25

At school countless tipsy at lunch

5:27

time. I remember lots of times

5:29

are being kept in to because

5:31

I didn't get mess I wasn't

5:33

for being naughty them and I

5:36

know what is below sea know.

5:39

Really? Although by the time

5:42

I to graduate I would like to

5:44

point out as is very proud personal

5:46

fact that I did graduate his code

5:48

ducks have one group kinda primary school

5:51

but I will point out with any

5:53

one other person in my class. So.

5:59

By the top top and. The bottom of the

6:01

school day I prefer to look

6:03

at the glass. Ah, that's right

6:05

indeed. quite quite rightly so. citing

6:07

you know scholarship to go to

6:09

a posh goals certain as that

6:11

was that transition like for you

6:13

random. That was completely difference to

6:15

a small country school I supposed.

6:17

As a border in that school

6:19

a lot of kids came from

6:21

rural backgrounds I think Said it

6:24

was particularly challenging to feel like

6:26

you see seen specifically with the

6:28

level of affluence. I suppose that many

6:30

of those students would have come with

6:32

with it was an interesting trends is

6:34

since and was difficult moving from the

6:36

country into the Cc on the Dallas

6:39

Mill lots and lots town but it

6:41

is known as a city because of

6:43

it's to cathedrals Bit of a long

6:45

time you'd run up and bullet was

6:47

in A town that I grew up

6:49

in was just the land average. Joe's

6:51

a border. I. Didn't like it

6:53

very much. I have to say

6:56

I send it quite confronting see

6:58

Sarah dormant tree with i don't

7:00

know probably ice other girls or

7:02

something. Or a dedicated to destroy each

7:04

other's personality. A. Pretty much pretty

7:06

much so. It wasn't particularly comfortable

7:09

and saw and I didn't enjoy

7:11

that but A Deeds. Recognize

7:13

the privilege I had to

7:16

to guys to that school.

7:18

so. That was

7:20

a really interesting period I suppose

7:22

of my life. So. After

7:24

you boarding and but school with

7:26

guys was. Thankfully I was able

7:29

to gone live with my grandmother

7:31

while the family made arrangements over

7:33

the next year or so ahead

7:35

t to move into town as

7:37

well and make that to home

7:39

base but I got to live

7:41

with my grandmother for about a

7:44

year I think sensor that was

7:46

a treasured time as well. You'd

7:48

have to get on with her.

7:50

our at we were extraordinarily close.

7:53

See. Was

7:55

an incredible woman. So.

7:59

I think that. Her when

8:01

she was very God. It's

8:03

about her. Early last history.

8:07

And is she didn't want. To dwell

8:09

on that she wouldn't see are a great deal

8:11

about his. Those was a

8:14

lot of curiosity about that, but

8:16

clearly see the heads and upbringing

8:18

set to. Was.

8:22

Quite. Impoverished I think. And

8:24

so she became very. Resourceful,

8:26

And his seat was somebody

8:29

who was propelled so. Ah,

8:32

To. Finds.

8:34

Better and more secure wise, the herself

8:36

in the future and to forge. That

8:39

forward for everybody. He came after her

8:41

as she wanted it for. You see,

8:43

we're definitely wanted that for for me

8:45

and her other grandchildren so much. She

8:47

was a relentless about that with your

8:49

whole crew with it. she was just

8:51

the opposite sheath the suit, very warm.

8:53

With Sasha and ah and should

8:55

encourage. It a new kinds of ways.

8:58

Some things like for example she saved

9:00

up hip henson money to to send

9:02

me to grooming and department classes June

9:04

Delhi What can really say that would

9:07

have this is we have to learn

9:09

to walk while you're balancing a bible

9:11

on jail for yeah pretty much Cia

9:13

deeds and abroad posture and rest of

9:16

his shoulders back girls a slow his

9:18

bags and you know it's fork and

9:20

was cutlery to use and editors and

9:22

snowy the with your hands No definitely

9:25

not. And

9:27

I guess morning As I was thinking about

9:29

having a chat with you today, I was

9:31

remembering. Boasts. My

9:34

boarding school experience and

9:36

ends her. One

9:39

of thing for. Said a boarding school you had

9:41

to have says he had bring Tajik. Linens,

9:43

Says yes of course. And

9:46

so see went out and got me

9:48

a Soviet ring and had my name

9:50

engraved in it so that I would

9:53

be proper and says that I would

9:55

pass ends at the fresh used um

9:57

Dia. what's the you will? ah so

9:59

you. I would you spend

10:01

time with you? What would you do to get

10:03

a uterus? Ah, we play a lot of scrabble.

10:06

And. Play Love Canasta and

10:08

you know, so when

10:10

you play longer aims like

10:13

that, you spend a lot

10:15

of time connected and

10:17

in talking and so. These

10:20

periods of of playing those games

10:22

gave us a lot of connection.

10:25

And the ability to kind of

10:27

think about and talk about. What

10:29

was meaningful ones I am in the news

10:32

in public discourse at that time really are

10:34

playing. Scrabble is a fine where the developer

10:36

kids brain to some it's arguments I make

10:38

words and he just wants to me meaning

10:40

years give you a movie even those words

10:43

that are giving it to the high schools

10:45

which of goal of accusing they don't hear

10:47

that one of us have ever the master

10:49

of that somehow I don't know how but

10:51

she was I think C C hadn't oxford

10:53

dictionary for breakfast every morning. I think I'm

10:56

not so of it. So she's doing all

10:58

the slump with the she's. Making really lovely

11:00

any is charging who tried to a him

11:02

being to you by passing a movie over

11:04

and being a bit. Jaded about.

11:07

Their. Own background or did you like

11:09

a loon? What did you piece

11:11

together about her? Her room background? After

11:13

long afterwards, I. Think that see

11:16

a really wanted to make a way.

11:18

Forward for. Some

11:20

people in her family

11:22

so see maintains. A

11:24

God had not. See

11:27

changed parts of her identity

11:30

in order to make a

11:32

way forward. Sea change

11:34

to nine. Ah. Do

11:36

we didn't know what hurts

11:38

his Birthday, malls and so

11:40

on. So many people in

11:42

the family sold on know

11:45

so it's so. It's a

11:47

real curiosity and it remains

11:49

a real curiosity. See to

11:51

Slice Sas. The

11:53

his history that she was so daughter to

11:55

Bass and what was the truth is that

11:58

the defend moon I'm at his. The

12:00

Work in Progress. Is. Still a

12:02

work in progress. Here.

12:05

But I think see probably had. To. Do a lot

12:07

of very challenging things. Can you tell her

12:09

about her background? See Ah would

12:11

tell us about her. Experiences of

12:14

being a syrup earnest and

12:16

am a suit in places

12:18

like Kings Cross in Sydney

12:20

ah which we just accepted

12:23

as kids. And and

12:25

she did have a self taught knowledge.

12:27

Around particularly arounds.

12:31

Lighter Note: caring for

12:33

people caring for injuries.

12:36

So she did have a little bit of knowledge about

12:38

that. Financing it with him. Yet

12:40

insight. I even have

12:43

a dictionary. That was hers.

12:45

That is a dictionary for nurses.

12:47

I think that she's probably picked

12:49

it up in an optional. Some

12:52

time that you know it's it's very

12:54

old. I. Can't remember how old

12:56

are these but it is well before

12:59

she met my grandfather and and had

13:01

their own families in. What did she

13:03

say about her parents? As him

13:05

mother. Heads am very challenging

13:08

background as well. I think I

13:10

think she spent some time in

13:12

a sink say the same time

13:14

we'd call it does seem to

13:16

these days but it wasn't called

13:19

that dame. I think that was

13:21

kind of a home for hopeless.

13:23

Women or something like that has. Fallen

13:25

Women's Football. Than women at minus

13:28

the air with that kind of

13:30

thing as see heads a child's.

13:32

And a his former husband had

13:34

died says she was a widow.

13:38

Says he heads, one daughter ends

13:40

and you I eventually she met

13:42

my great grandfather as best I

13:44

can piece together. And

13:46

say he was a

13:48

blacksmith that head come

13:51

from ah Tumblr Rumba

13:53

area and say his

13:55

family bout the time

13:58

that's the same. The

14:00

house burned down. he seems to

14:02

have had some to or he

14:04

seems to have moved on and

14:06

are some family members didn't need

14:09

to move on and some deeds

14:11

bad. He seems to have moved

14:13

north ends. And.

14:15

So join managed to find some

14:17

work on the rail lions worked

14:20

his way up to far as

14:22

Tyree by the time and Cassava

14:24

by the time he's met my

14:26

great grandmother and when she said

14:28

to you. You'll. Pass would you

14:31

think she meant by that? I. Think

14:33

that see means that you need

14:35

to passes as a white person.

14:37

And you need to pass

14:40

as somebody. Who

14:42

is acceptable to society and

14:44

and so she would reinforce

14:46

that with things like making

14:48

sure that we is, she

14:50

would give us gifts for

14:53

example, oh give me gifts

14:55

of things like table knife

14:57

or a soviets and embroidered

14:59

cloths and lice cloths and

15:01

is so that I'd be

15:03

able to host tea parties

15:05

all people in society when

15:07

I was in Adults Sushi

15:10

City New. Pass met her way of.

15:13

Her. Trying to tell you that you

15:15

had aboriginal blood? Maybe or maybe not

15:17

tell me this For her it was

15:19

very important that we would be acceptable

15:21

and able to participate in society of

15:24

presents front of what respectability? what do

15:26

you think of all that now looking

15:28

back on that Rhonda about your friend

15:30

mothers and or Iraq or and or

15:33

measure to say but as middle suffering

15:35

with all of that side to I.

15:37

Also imagine that as

15:39

well, and particularly for

15:41

her hands, siblings, her

15:43

siblings. But what I

15:45

make of it now

15:47

is what an extraordinary

15:49

feminists to try and

15:51

make meaning. And. Trying

15:54

to hike for was

15:56

opportunities to up least.

16:00

particularly her granddaughters

16:02

as I recall it. So

16:05

I think what an extraordinary feminist.

16:08

She must have been very much,

16:10

well I think she had some schooling. I

16:13

don't think she had very much. Now

16:15

here is somebody who's a real self

16:17

starter with education to be able to

16:19

play scrabble to the level she did

16:21

and to read to the

16:23

extraordinary level she did. She

16:26

loved to read. I think

16:29

that's extraordinary. So having

16:31

discovered that your great grandfather was

16:33

a Wiradjuri man, does that make sense

16:35

to you in a Wiradjuri country? From Wiradjuri country. Does that

16:37

make sense to you in a way? It

16:40

does make sense to me. I think it doesn't

16:42

make sense to everybody in the family but it

16:45

certainly makes sense to me. And

16:47

I think that it is something

16:50

that I have always been aware

16:52

of. I think my

16:54

earliest memories on that

16:57

sheep property were having

16:59

that time that's connected to the

17:02

nature around you and

17:04

so my mother was a real singer.

17:07

She would like to sing and play

17:09

guitar. So that

17:11

musicality I suppose was there to

17:14

some extent but one

17:17

of my greatest joys was to be

17:20

out in the backyard and to be singing

17:22

to country really. Would

17:25

your grandmother offer clues about this and the way she talked

17:27

to you? I think so.

17:29

Cultural clues? I think so.

17:31

There was one story that I think

17:34

resonates. Now whether it was a story

17:36

she was passing or not, it's difficult

17:39

to, you know, you can't

17:43

definitively say anymore. There

17:46

is a waradroosory about a crow

17:48

and about some

17:51

young girls who

17:54

during a particularly dry period I gather,

17:56

so perhaps drought, I don't know. telling

18:00

of this story is not, you

18:04

know, cultural elders, we're actually

18:06

cultural elders, elders will have, you

18:08

know, a much clearer version of

18:10

this story. But it's best that

18:12

I can piece together as

18:15

somebody relatively new to that is

18:19

that these women were, these young

18:21

women had left the

18:23

community, had been sent off to

18:25

go and gather water, to find

18:27

water. It's

18:30

quite treacherous to go off alone

18:32

from community. There are

18:34

dangers. And, you know,

18:36

if you fall short

18:38

or if you fall into danger, then

18:40

of course, you know, crows are there

18:42

and, and, you know, would they pick

18:45

your bones kind of thing. So, so

18:47

here are these young women going off to make improvements

18:50

for community's life

18:53

by trying to find some water to,

18:55

you know, and so I

18:57

draw a lot of meaning from

18:59

this story now with my own work, I

19:01

suppose, but my grandmother would again

19:04

shake her, her crooked finger

19:06

at any crows she

19:08

heard and say, you're not coming for me

19:10

yet. You're not coming for

19:12

me yet to warn it off.

19:14

So whether, you know, it

19:16

has a great deal of resonance, I

19:19

think, when you start to piece together some

19:21

of the parts of her history. So

19:24

when you go into this posh girl school, you're getting

19:26

this whole other education from your grandmother on the side,

19:28

and then you come to the end of the education

19:30

and you have this meeting with

19:32

a vocational careers person at

19:34

the school. I think I

19:37

might have paraphrased that right at the start. Can you

19:39

remember what that person actually told you about what you'd

19:41

be good at, what you should attempt and what you

19:43

shouldn't attempt? Please, Rhonda. Well,

19:46

basically, she just said to me, I'd make a

19:48

great mother. That's where

19:51

my skills would lie. That's where

19:53

my expertise, you know, that

19:55

was where my skills were. Just

20:00

a mother. That was the inference. That's pretty obnoxious.

20:02

Yeah. I

20:06

might just putting the standards of today on yesterday,

20:08

I don't know, but you'd be just a mum,

20:10

is what she said. Yeah, pretty much. Right. That's

20:13

it. And did you believe her

20:15

at the time? Yes, I did. Absolutely.

20:18

I had no reason not to. I

20:22

think it's very easy on you that age to

20:24

believe what older people tell you about yourself, the

20:26

free character assessments you get. Yeah, that's right. I

20:28

think of all the ones I had when I

20:30

said, hey, they're all wrong too from older people.

20:32

No, you're like that. And you

20:34

look back and you go, what, really? I

20:37

mean, deciding what you like when you're that

20:39

age is really all a bit mad. So

20:41

what did you do when you left school then, Rhonda?

20:43

That was helpful advice. That

20:45

helpful advice was year 10. And

20:49

so I thought, well, I'll leave

20:52

school now then. And

20:54

I had a part-time job on Thursday

20:57

nights and Saturday mornings at my local

20:59

Kmart selling shoes. So you left

21:01

school on that advice? I left school on that advice. And

21:03

went to work in Kmart? It reinforced, yeah, I

21:05

just thought, oh, great, I'll go work in Kmart.

21:08

And I sold shoes. And

21:10

once I left school, I moved on to Coles

21:13

and worked as a checkout

21:15

operator at Coles. Where did you

21:17

go from there, Rhonda, in your brilliant

21:20

career? My brilliant career.

21:22

I think I did some hospitality.

21:24

I did some receptionist kind

21:27

of work at a solicitor's office. I

21:29

did a whole bunch of things. But one

21:31

of the jobs I landed was becoming

21:34

the general library assistant at the University of

21:36

New England. And what was your role there?

21:38

I was the photocopy girl for most of

21:40

that time. Do you need a person to

21:42

photocopy? I remember I did my own photocopying

21:44

back in those days at uni, but they

21:46

needed someone to do the photocopying? Well, they

21:48

needed somebody to look after that. Well, the

21:50

bank of photocopiers, I mean, you had to

21:52

put your five cents in. And

21:55

invariably, that went wrong somewhere or

21:57

the paper got, you know, caught

21:59

up. and somebody has to go out and

22:01

fix it for the poor student at the university.

22:04

Oh God, I'd never want to go back to

22:06

those days with photocopiers and all that again. Yeah,

22:08

like photocopying half of a book, which that is

22:10

quite illegal actually. It is illegal actually.

22:12

You did it all the time as well. And

22:15

were you envious of the

22:17

students around you at the time? I

22:19

know I felt quite important. Here I am. I've

22:22

got a position in

22:27

a library and I felt really

22:29

important actually. And

22:31

more than that, I got to

22:33

photocopy the articles for the

22:35

external students. So there are a lot of particularly

22:38

psychology external students at

22:41

UNE. And

22:43

so I found their papers

22:46

really fascinating. So you're

22:48

photocopying the same article

22:51

all day ready to get

22:53

packaged off to the external students. And

22:55

occasionally you just got to have a look at one. Yeah,

22:58

have a read. So

23:00

that's what got you interested in that

23:03

kind of, in that world, just reading the

23:05

articles you were photocopying. Yeah, it

23:07

is a pretty boring task, photocopying. So you could do

23:09

something to keep yourself entertained. Well, I just kind of

23:11

want to reflect that you're actually a really nice and

23:13

a curious person. I can remember there

23:15

was some pretty serious petty tyrants around those photocopying machines

23:18

back in the day. Oh, yeah. That's

23:20

their domain. And if you intrude upon it, but

23:23

instead you're reading these articles. And

23:25

how are they affecting you reading those articles?

23:28

I was fascinated with the

23:31

information about human behaviour that

23:35

I was reading. I didn't

23:37

necessarily understand it very well,

23:40

but it was enough to really fascinate me. So

23:43

when it was very busy periods and a

23:46

paper came across and I thought, oh, that's a

23:48

little bit interesting, but

23:50

didn't have time to read it, then

23:52

I'd probably make an extra copy here and

23:54

there. And you can imagine how

23:56

illegal that was at five cents a page. And

24:00

today that sounds ruinous economically. It was,

24:03

it was the wrong thing to do. But

24:06

I think having worked for UNE and

24:08

I have been exonerated by Vice Chancellors at

24:10

the university in the past and I think

24:12

they do feel that they ended up getting

24:14

their five cents worth out of me. So

24:18

what triggered the jump from being the

24:20

photocopying life assistant librarian at the university

24:22

to going to nursing school for you?

24:25

Well, it was at that time that

24:27

a good friend was

24:29

killed in a car accident and

24:31

he was in his third year

24:33

of hospital based nurse training, his

24:35

name was Phil Roberts.

24:39

And I guess at that age,

24:41

I just thought, you know what? The

24:44

world is going to be missing out on a

24:46

nurse here. Who is going to step

24:48

up? It's irrational, but young

24:51

person, grief, all of those things.

24:53

There's a hole in the world when someone dies

24:55

young, isn't there? There is. And,

24:58

and you try and make meaning of it. And

25:01

I thought, well, somebody's going to have to step up. Perhaps

25:04

that could be me. And so an

25:06

opportunity came up to enroll to, so

25:08

I applied for training enrolled nursing at

25:11

Tamworth Base Hospital and hour and 10

25:13

minutes down the road, which seemed like

25:15

the world away. And I got

25:17

accepted. And that started my nursing journey

25:20

in June, 1987. Thank

25:48

you. How

26:06

you made the leap. You started

26:08

signing as a Nurse at Tamworth

26:10

Base Hospital. What do you remember?

26:12

your first time in the woods?

26:14

The answer: Tamworth from the oh

26:16

my goodness. I remember my first

26:18

big boss very well. This why

26:20

so what? Happened was that we

26:23

called them see the Sisters hidden

26:25

in those days and we were

26:27

split up into two groups. To

26:29

have said she does sister demonstrate

26:31

how to do a bed bath

26:33

on a person So I was

26:35

in the group that was allocated

26:37

to a Forbid Smile Woods. And.

26:39

Said the curtains were drawn and the to

26:41

to sister is going through the whole process

26:43

and I suppose they must be. Six of

26:45

us are more crowded. Around this poll

26:48

man is about to. You know

26:50

be bused in bed under the

26:52

observation of always try to control

26:54

nurses. So I can see

26:56

a was getting a bit seen in

26:58

his standing still. For long period of time

27:01

and I fainted. Of

27:03

of. Was

27:06

a just been on your food for too long will

27:08

from a side of the my old man I tried

27:10

soccer soccer or that's when you personally I'm in a

27:12

delight to lose that very ambiguous. Speaks

27:15

as the the other men in the world

27:17

certainly wanted to know what it is. Headset

27:19

was so impressive I can tell you. So.

27:22

That was the beginning of my nursing. Degree so it

27:24

was obvious from their science when she

27:27

became analysts, what was of you you

27:29

enjoyed or even loved about work? I.

27:32

Just love the routine of votes

27:34

or loves. Being. Able to case

27:36

of people obviously and in to realize

27:38

that what I could do. Even

27:40

as a trainee enrolled know. What I

27:42

could do could help people to

27:44

be more comfortable when they were

27:47

uncomfortable or when the were in

27:49

pain so I could assist them

27:51

ways decreasing the pain. And.

27:53

Promising. They come first and I think that

27:56

is one of the things that is key

27:58

to nursing. Is is absolutely. The

28:00

fundamental to nursing is a

28:02

helping people in that we.

28:04

Promote com for. So.

28:06

That they can get about all the things that

28:09

they need to do and want to do in

28:11

in have meaning in their lives. The

28:13

person you can be in with a

28:15

very capable of the you specially to

28:18

be sloppy and or of their expertise

28:20

but I think for coins nurse the

28:22

dedicated this is something even above poor

28:24

you feel for that that continents That's.

28:27

Kind of great. Moral. Courage I

28:30

think in a really goodness but he

28:32

thinks battles. Why I love the

28:34

ease the word kinds because we

28:36

often use words like kinds and

28:38

compassion and tear as though the

28:41

is soft. As though you

28:43

know they somehow how wake

28:45

the nine have a strong

28:47

things that these are no

28:49

extraordinary strengths and phases. Skills

28:51

that need expertise that needs

28:53

to be learned and hind

28:55

i the time because not

28:58

every nurse turns up to

29:00

work every day and feel

29:02

as though they have the

29:04

agency and the strength to

29:06

be kind and compassionate. And

29:08

yet they do because that

29:10

is the expertise said. The

29:12

expertise. That nurses bring T

29:14

T carrying so paypal with

29:16

physical or mental health challenges

29:18

is absolutely extraordinary and it

29:21

will last the whole cysts.

29:23

You don't get a break.

29:25

From it if you're in the acute sick the

29:27

for example. So learning to

29:29

do is add ease is very,

29:32

very difficult indeed. A

29:34

sick people to have by much only a

29:36

finite amount of courage. Even people with the

29:38

most enormous amount of cash only have a

29:40

finite the Us is what I've heard from

29:42

over concise. I can do this dangerous thing

29:44

again and one guy that fun the stores

29:46

it is as one else so like there

29:48

with compassion to to be honest is there

29:50

like on the of finite amount of compassion

29:52

you can call upon as a nurse and

29:54

the job and defined days where you find

29:56

that from the classes empty they. Oh

29:59

I love that! In his mental health

30:01

nurse because. I. Don't think

30:03

it is fine ice. I think that it

30:05

can continue to be topped up, but I

30:07

don't think that is easy. So.

30:10

The way we do that in Mental Health

30:12

Nursing. Is through clinical supervision we

30:14

call us, and so it is

30:16

through a reflective practice all. Our

30:19

working with what's been

30:21

and how. The. How you

30:24

went through that particular prices? Soar

30:26

what your experience was and then

30:28

drawing forward what you've learned and

30:31

bringing that agency to the new

30:33

experience. So it is a continual.

30:36

Looking back. Finding. Ways.

30:39

To refresh and roll forwards

30:41

that agency and strength to

30:43

to move on to the

30:45

Dinks challenge. So it is

30:48

this continual continual process of

30:50

working backwards and forwards. And

30:52

undergoing making sure that you're working

30:54

with your own mental health? Nays,

30:57

Through counseling three clinical

30:59

citizen. So we do have

31:01

models of actually being able to

31:04

do that, and that's what particular

31:06

Mental Health Nursing is very far

31:08

to. Song is bringing that agency.

31:10

Every single time. So when

31:12

you encounter a kind, compassionate,

31:14

caring nurse all the time

31:16

that sexy what they doing

31:18

the the bringing an awful

31:21

lot to that experience. Have

31:23

a human just as a business been somewhat

31:25

ten years in the rain or a comedian

31:27

Spring of the comedy world. Comedians have a

31:29

comedy. They perform for audiences but when they're

31:31

amongst themselves or got super black humor they

31:33

wouldn't dish with an oriental. The point is

31:35

the point is to i don't know the

31:37

kind of a valve really saw something interesting.

31:39

my kids are tibet a dreadful mind you

31:41

prefer. didn't come up with that sort of

31:43

things and this is the same Dvd mogulof

31:45

if result that allows. It's never enough for

31:47

the audible for the to new set of

31:49

a similar store. a super black humor they

31:51

only do share with each other. ah I

31:53

think that is v the site that's that's

31:56

I do and is that necessary because of

31:58

in Missouri Necessary and some was. There's something

32:00

see say an experience that you can

32:02

only say is extraordinarily funny and I

32:05

think you do have to be of

32:07

the have a laugh about. Things you

32:09

do have to be of

32:11

bank loss of difficult situations

32:13

when wasn't civilians might not

32:16

as soon as backlight exactly

32:18

odds are supposed over at

32:20

his An example I don't

32:22

know a nurse who can't

32:24

talk about bodily functions and

32:26

enjoy a lovely meal simultaneously.

32:28

It's. It's

32:31

it's it's a separate low voltage of you

32:33

hazard pay for that on that list. Serve.

32:37

As a nurse was the remember when you thought. Might.

32:40

Have their disposal or can do door

32:42

yes, something more with that. Yes, he

32:45

certainly was a dud of com things

32:47

in other words to describe it as

32:49

the monuments, but I suppose. They was

32:51

kind of an M P. Sunny Moments if you

32:53

like. And. It was back

32:55

in that training and rolled know

32:58

stays in the orthopedic ward at

33:00

Tamworth Spice Hospital. It was as

33:02

it was nine then ends. I

33:05

had become away prior to that

33:07

that there were these nurses cold

33:09

at Doctors of Nursing, particularly in

33:11

the Us. And.

33:14

I picked up the fine one

33:16

day and we. Had a particular

33:18

procedure about how we would. Say without

33:20

designation, laws and and last name

33:22

And so I picked up the

33:25

find and I said. I was

33:27

ten cipher at that. Point in time

33:29

and I just felt you know one day

33:31

I'm gonna say. Hello, it's

33:33

it's doctor. And somebody speaking

33:35

so so not not like medical doctor but

33:38

as and to pay I stayed. Missing

33:41

doctor. Said. It's a bit like

33:43

the flash of insight you got about beginning nursing in.

33:45

the first was zip and did you tends to that

33:47

thought you must have I suppose you you flipped it

33:50

on that and how did you decide to act on

33:52

been on his. Quarterly, I didn't tell

33:54

people about this I'd It was something

33:56

that I just continued. to draw forward

33:58

and and lane too in

34:01

my own consciousness I think. I

34:04

really didn't talk to people about that aspiration

34:07

because that was far too lofty to

34:10

even utter out loud. As

34:13

I've said several times, you hadn't had the greatest amount

34:15

of career encouragement in the past, had you? So

34:17

you just forget that to yourself. Then

34:20

you enrolled at uni. I did because

34:22

I loved what I was doing as

34:24

a training enrolled nurse and I knew I had to become

34:26

a registered nurse. I just knew

34:28

from that moment onwards that

34:31

I needed to take steps towards

34:34

that end goal of

34:36

becoming a doctor in

34:39

nursing one day. So I

34:41

just kept enrolling and

34:43

moved back to Armidale

34:45

to commence my studies at Armidale

34:47

College of Advanced Education which is

34:49

now University of New England. And

34:52

so as an undergraduate you met your husband Glenn.

34:55

Tell me how you met Glenn. I

34:58

met Glenn in a rock

35:00

pool. A rock pool. A

35:02

rock pool which is a reasonable

35:04

place to find Glenn even today in a

35:07

rock pool. What in

35:09

the national park you mean? In a national park, yes.

35:12

How idyllic. Yes, it was idyllic. Was

35:14

he just there waiting for you to go inside the

35:17

rock pool or what? Yes, it appears that way. No,

35:19

we were. I've been waiting for you. I've been waiting

35:21

for you all my life. No, no,

35:23

it wasn't quite like that. A whole

35:25

bunch of university friends and college

35:28

friends and local friends decided we

35:30

were all going to go for

35:32

a bushwalk and a picnic and

35:34

just outside of Armidale, I

35:36

think it was the Blue Hole. And

35:39

I was aware that this person, Glenn,

35:42

wasn't going to be fit to

35:44

go on the bushwalk. Why was that?

35:46

Well, the first thing I noticed was that

35:48

he had a scar on his leg

35:51

and hip and as somebody who'd

35:54

freshly come from training

35:56

enrolled nursing and the

35:58

orthopedic ward, I recognised does that

36:00

scar and I thought, oh, he's had

36:02

a hip replacement. And so

36:04

I thought, oh, he's not going to be able to do the bushwalk. So

36:08

I'll stay back with him because

36:10

nurses do that and keep him

36:12

company. And

36:14

so my introductory line

36:17

to him was really, and so you've had

36:19

a hip replacement. I completely missed

36:21

the fact that he was

36:23

missing a whole right arm and had

36:26

experienced a dreadful car

36:28

accident and in that car

36:30

accident had lost his arm. So

36:33

we do look back on that moment

36:35

and laugh now that this is my big

36:37

pickup line. So he had a hip replacement. He

36:40

had a hip replacement. He had a lot of

36:42

other surgeries, but not a hip replacement. Yeah, but

36:44

being a nurse, you probably wouldn't have been as

36:46

weird about it as a civilian would, right? Perhaps.

36:49

This is just one of the, I

36:51

don't know, this is what I do.

36:53

I suppose I look for the people

36:55

who aren't being included or can't be

36:57

for whatever reason. And I think, oh,

36:59

how can we gather everybody together? How can

37:02

it be fair for everyone? And how long did it

37:04

take you to realise that it might be more serious

37:06

than that? Yeah, I think over the next six months

37:08

or so, it evolved into

37:10

something more than a clinical

37:13

relationship into a more of a

37:15

romantic one. I've

37:18

got a photo of you in front of me in England.

37:21

And this is from the time you got together

37:23

and you're wearing this green dress and he's got

37:26

a matching bow tie. Is that the same fabric?

37:29

It is. We

37:31

went to a ball and Glem was

37:33

a resident at Rob College at

37:36

the University of New England and

37:38

they're quite famous for their balls.

37:40

And that year I was

37:43

lucky enough to have an invitation to attend

37:46

the ball with him. So I thought I

37:48

better make a dress. So as somebody who

37:50

makes things, that I'll make my dress. So

37:53

I got some lovely green shot taffeta and

37:55

I made a dress and then made

37:57

him a matching bow tie and cumper bun as well.

38:00

or by hand to go to the

38:03

Rob Ball. So it is

38:05

a treasured photo really. I quite like that

38:07

photo and the dress. I think that was

38:09

alright too. How

38:12

did you then move into mental

38:15

health nursing, Rhonda? Well,

38:18

I suppose we moved to

38:20

Townsville after Glenn finished his

38:23

honours at UNE and he

38:25

was offered a PhD scholarship at James Cook

38:27

in E. So I had to relocate my

38:29

nursing studies. And one of the things that

38:31

James Cook and he had was they

38:33

had a real strength in mental health nursing lecturers there.

38:37

So you could probably consider

38:39

the course at that time was almost

38:41

a major in mental health nursing. What

38:44

were your preconceptions about being on a

38:47

psychiatric ward initially? Well,

38:49

I think I was probably scared

38:51

because I knew nothing about mental

38:53

health. And I

38:55

think that, you know, that's fairly common

38:57

to if you don't know about any

38:59

phenomena. The first

39:01

reaction is to be a bit cautious and

39:04

perhaps even fearful. And so

39:06

I was a bit worried about doing the

39:08

mental health course because I didn't

39:10

know what it would entail of me, what it would require

39:12

of me. And I think

39:14

that I was a little bit concerned about

39:16

some of the things that I

39:19

didn't know about my family. I

39:22

knew enough to know that there were

39:24

some family members as there are in

39:26

all families, I would hasten to say.

39:30

There was talk of breakdown sometimes and I

39:32

didn't know what a breakdown was. And

39:35

I'm not sure I still do. And the great

39:37

Australian silence that used to depend on that. The

39:39

great Australian silence. Yeah, on the we don't talk

39:41

about that. No, we don't. Right. And

39:44

in country Australia, you know, you certainly in

39:46

the era that I was growing up, you

39:48

don't talk about things like that and you

39:50

do keep children shielded from it. So what

39:52

happened when you got the textbook on this

39:54

course? It was Read

39:57

from front to back and scribbled

39:59

all through. And I just about

40:01

the whole. Thing I wanted you know really

40:03

what it was, What was so gripping

40:05

about it again I was drawn see

40:07

see him in experience. And the

40:09

highs is that were explain sense.

40:12

I was just fascinated. So it's

40:14

kind of the eclipse thread between

40:16

my my library assistant days and

40:18

us during the. Fight. Copying right

40:20

through t that chapter.

40:23

Or that that textbook and

40:25

saw and just discovering the

40:27

diversity of he man as

40:29

he was such an eye

40:31

opener for me. So you

40:34

don't really know in the world might have

40:36

a crooked timber us humans sued already known

40:38

that but seen described to the broken this

40:40

described like that. There. Was

40:42

a real eye opener for you and have at the

40:45

language of that. Just having the language of to describe

40:47

and diagnose and talk about these things were set of

40:49

things he was well. He or to

40:51

begin to have of so templar a

40:53

way it at the is. Very.

40:55

Little vocabulary, particularly.

40:58

For somebody who is naive with

41:00

you know mental health conditions and

41:02

I think this is. Is

41:05

a huge challenge posed said.

41:07

You know young people who

41:09

don't necessarily have of the

41:12

Kepler A for the experiences

41:14

that they might be having

41:16

themselves. I. Had discussions about this issue

41:18

in the past. The best he about mental health. In

41:20

a way that's not just. Medical.

41:22

Was psychological bubbles a spiritual as well.

41:25

Was absolutely. Absolutely spiritual

41:27

as well. I We are

41:29

spiritual beings. now i'm

41:31

not necessarily talking about that in

41:33

terms of a religion i'm talking

41:36

about apps and nixon we see

41:38

each other with the world we

41:40

live in and the ways we

41:42

make meaning of all of these

41:45

things and all of this make

41:47

meaning all l everyday lives to

41:49

some extent that his spirituality and

41:51

that connects and we have between

41:54

each other we say other with

41:56

the world around us and old

41:58

needs to be taken into account

42:00

in a holistic manner to

42:03

assist us to understand mental health and

42:05

well-being and to strive for that. So

42:08

you did your undergraduate, you

42:10

did your master's, and you did

42:12

your PhD. That's why you're a

42:14

doctor and now professor, Rhonda Wilson. You made that

42:16

sound really fun. Yeah, I'm sure it was just

42:18

like that too. It's all done like that, yeah.

42:20

What was the area of your PhD? What were

42:22

you focusing in on with that? So

42:25

my PhD was looking at young

42:27

rural people's mental health and how

42:30

we could help young

42:32

people get the help they

42:34

needed earlier for mental health conditions. Using

42:38

digital technology to make that happen?

42:40

No, no. Any mechanism. I

42:43

wanted to understand more about how we could

42:45

get people in earlier because I knew that

42:49

the longer that people are unwell,

42:52

the more difficult it is to have

42:54

a positive mental health

42:57

outcome for those people. And I

42:59

did know that in rural settings,

43:02

young people tend to have a longer

43:05

duration of untreated mental

43:07

illness, significantly so. And I wanted

43:09

to find a way to bring that back

43:12

down so that it was comparable

43:14

with urban populations at least. Is

43:17

that mainly about distance issues

43:19

or are there cultural issues there as well? Both.

43:22

There were lots of different factors there

43:24

and it's also a resourcing

43:27

issue as well. I suppose

43:29

that was one of the key things that

43:31

came out of that PhD was that people

43:34

said, well, we understand actually that

43:36

economically it wouldn't be viable to have a

43:40

mental health setting in every small

43:42

country town. The nation probably

43:44

can't afford that, okay? But

43:46

surely there should be something that should

43:48

be available in something online

43:51

or digital. And

43:53

I wasn't expecting that as a finding. Well

43:56

that pragmatism is... Yeah, but given

43:58

that that was... of the findings that

44:02

I guess led to my next mission to

44:04

figure out well okay as

44:06

somebody who comes from country

44:08

Australia, rural Australia, perhaps

44:10

I better be at the forefront

44:12

of developing digital resources to

44:15

assist people with their

44:17

mental health conditions so

44:19

that those urban developers

44:22

don't get it all wrong for rural

44:24

people that their interests are considered. So

44:26

I thought I've got something to bring

44:28

to that and so that's

44:31

where I land at the moment. The

44:34

other work you've been doing is

44:36

an idea developed to help

44:40

mental health patients with anxiety. Tell me a bit

44:42

about that. Yeah well there

44:44

are lots of ideas but I think that maybe

44:47

the interesting one is some of the

44:49

work we're doing around some

44:51

immersive relaxation techniques

44:54

to support people with dysregulation

44:56

or stress in

44:59

various contexts and so... And it could be people

45:01

like on the autism spectrum you mean? That kind

45:03

of thing? It could be a

45:05

whole range of any situation

45:07

that is stressful I suppose. And

45:10

I'm doing this work in particular with my PhD

45:13

student and colleague Oliver Higgins who is

45:15

both a mental health nurse and a

45:17

computing scientist. So that's

45:20

a win-win in my book when I

45:22

have a digital health laboratory. But

45:24

we're doing this work to... And we've built

45:26

a proof of concept around an immersive

45:29

relaxation experience to assist

45:31

with dysregulation to help

45:33

people with stress. So

45:36

we have got these pop-up rooms

45:39

that we can have an immersive

45:41

experience in. So we can actually

45:43

have a tailored experience so

45:46

that we can work with the person

45:49

to figure out things that are most

45:51

likely to assist them to relax.

45:53

So what would be some of the things that

45:55

might be in that room to help that person?

45:58

Yeah. But for example,

46:01

talk with community and

46:03

gather some stories and

46:06

turn those stories into a

46:08

simulation. So for example, the

46:11

story might be something as simple

46:13

as going for a walk through a

46:15

rainforest. And so

46:17

we develop a scenario

46:20

where you have wraparound vision,

46:22

you can hear features

46:24

from the rainforest. We'll have people

46:26

falling to sleep now and I would call that

46:28

a win. How nice.

46:31

I was thinking, can I get one of these in my house? I

46:34

don't know. Hear birds, hear waterfalls, hear all

46:36

the things that you would hear if you

46:38

went for a walk through the forest and

46:41

you hear them from different directions,

46:43

not just one speaker.

46:47

So we might have sound, we might

46:49

have vision, but we might also have

46:51

scent and we might have

46:53

temperature, we might have breeze, all

46:55

integrated into our system.

46:58

And then we also have the technology

47:01

to collect biometric

47:03

information without anybody wearing

47:05

anything. But we've got

47:07

sensors built in where we can detect moments

47:10

where people start to relax

47:12

more so that we

47:15

can actually draw forward the relaxation

47:17

experience to the critical

47:19

moment in the installation.

47:22

So that we can know when somebody's

47:25

relaxed, calmer and

47:27

perhaps that assists them. As

47:29

I said earlier, this is what nurses do.

47:32

We try and promote comfort. We

47:34

want to get people to the point of comfort

47:36

so that they can then

47:38

re-engage and make

47:40

logical decisions about ways

47:42

forward. We were talking right at

47:45

the beginning about how you eventually discovered one of the reasons

47:47

why your grandmother who you spent that time

47:50

with was quite cagey about

47:52

her background was that there's barrudgery heritage

47:54

in your family. How does that

47:57

work into your day-to-day... consciousness

48:00

of the work you do and your

48:02

practice as a nursing expert,

48:06

professional, academic. So

48:08

I see myself as a mental health

48:10

nursing scientist and there

48:12

aren't many of those in Australia. Not

48:15

every university has one, not every nursing

48:17

school has one and

48:19

so that's problematic in itself.

48:22

We do know that in

48:24

Australia Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander

48:26

people disproportionately

48:30

within mental health services and

48:33

within prisons. In

48:35

large numbers we know that the

48:38

dashboard for Close the Gap

48:40

is demonstrating that

48:42

some of the outcomes

48:45

are really getting worse

48:48

for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

48:51

That resonates very deeply with me and

48:55

as somebody now with

48:57

extraordinary privilege in

48:59

developing mental health nursing science,

49:02

it's also a cultural responsibility

49:04

I think to

49:06

be producing evidence to support

49:09

the social emotional wellbeing and

49:11

mental health outcomes of Aboriginal and Torres Strait

49:14

Islander people. And I

49:16

think that is something that I can contribute

49:18

strongly to. And

49:20

so that resonates across

49:23

all of my work as

49:25

a priority. I'm talking

49:27

about priority populations and

49:30

I prioritise the way I do

49:32

that. It's even changed the research

49:34

methods that we select

49:36

for many of our research

49:39

investigations. We use indigenous

49:41

research methods to investigate

49:44

health problems for First

49:47

Nations populations. And we

49:49

do that not just in Australia but internationally

49:51

because internationally similar problems

49:54

exist. So as

49:56

someone who is developing expertise in

49:58

that area, The Net.

50:00

I think that it makes

50:03

a strong contribution. Anything is

50:05

going to be helpful. For.

50:07

Both aboriginal and tarsier on the

50:10

people in Australia and will satisfy

50:12

since people globally. To.

50:14

Spawn. Was the

50:16

day when you are really conscious of sex with

50:18

the phone rang. And. You picked up in

50:20

he said. Dr. Rhonda Wilson here because

50:23

that was the thing wasn't It was there

50:25

a day where that actually happens. Or yeah,

50:27

I made. So that was a day that

50:29

set a Silly Hats on. Say appears that

50:31

he. Was conferred Id.

50:33

Ids do that. A couple

50:35

a times use the I it's

50:37

the fine hello it's Rhonda station

50:39

that say I have a to

50:42

do that after my peers stay

50:44

at Allies Doctor Wilson speaking and

50:46

sir and it seeds. Are you

50:48

know I completed that task?

50:51

The new task is on

50:53

to am developing resources and

50:55

improve mental health outcomes of.

50:58

Of people. I know that.

51:00

I'm just. I'm just glad you're in thought

51:02

as well. Little bit of a slight moment

51:04

of satisfaction, surely. Rhonda. I

51:06

did derive a little bit of satisfaction from those

51:09

few calls it and it's been such a joy

51:11

to speak with you and thank you thank you

51:13

so much for having me really appreciate. He's.

51:22

Been listening to a podcast have

51:24

conversations. With her scythe fired last. Conversations:

51:28

Interview Fleet or to

51:30

the website itheysay.net that

51:32

I last conversation. Seeds:

51:46

One minute putting them in

51:49

your arms. And

51:51

the next test. Morphed into

51:54

a teenager. A.

51:58

lot of figure out how to

52:01

parent in a whole new way. I'm

52:04

Vex Barrow and on this season

52:06

of Parental Is Anything, we're talking

52:09

teens. How to navigate the

52:11

hormones, the dramas and all

52:13

of the many changes while staying mostly

52:16

sane. From

52:20

what to do if your teen is hassling someone

52:22

for nude. She was like, more

52:24

of what? And eventually he just went nude

52:26

pic. I was horrified that

52:28

my boy could do this. To

52:30

how to handle the pressure to let them drink. You

52:33

have kids who push buttons and if a kid wants

52:35

to drink in a while, they're going to find a

52:37

way. We look at dealing

52:39

with big teenage emotions. She

52:41

was extremely emotional to the

52:44

point of saying things like,

52:46

no one likes me, I hate school. And

52:48

how to break through to your teens when

52:50

they've shut you out. It's

52:52

difficult because I don't

52:54

feel like I know

52:57

how to connect with him. Plus

52:59

there's so much more. So join

53:02

me, Vex Barrow, for this season of Parental

53:04

Is Anything Teens. Find us

53:06

on the ABC Listen app or wherever you listen.