0:00

At. Columbia University. Tuesday April

0:02

thirtieth marked the first day

0:04

of the study period for

0:07

final exams, but that Tuesday

0:09

morning also marked a further

0:11

increase in campus protests of

0:13

Israel's war in Gaza, when

0:15

dozens of pro Palestinian protesters

0:17

occupied and administration building. The

0:20

occupation lasted well into the

0:22

night. Then

0:27

around Nine thirty that night

0:29

in Why P D officers

0:31

in riot gear brandishing shields

0:33

and zip ties moved onto

0:35

campus, arresting dozens. At

0:40

one point, B. N Y P D

0:42

use the large tactical vehicle to

0:44

push a bridge into the window

0:46

of that administration building. Officers pouring

0:48

through and be is Brian Man

0:50

was at the scene talking to

0:52

some of the students, many of

0:54

which fear of reprisal from the

0:56

university. Myself and many other students

0:58

have just felt horror. Seeing.

1:01

The swiftness with which the and

1:03

Y P. D came and deployed

1:05

themselves onto our campus, Student journalists

1:08

at Columbia University covered the chaos

1:10

and emotional fallout on their campus

1:13

radio station. Would have been here

1:15

tonight was. Unique. The but

1:17

impersonal. It was anything but something

1:19

that you can just shake off

1:21

as having nothing to do. Columbia

1:23

We know these people. If you're

1:25

listening right now, you're a student.

1:28

You probably know some these people.

1:30

That same night, less than a

1:32

mile away, police crackdown on protesters

1:34

at City Hall in. Our.

1:39

Stores George. Consider

1:44

this pro. Palestinian protests on

1:46

college campuses are only growing

1:48

and scope and intensity and

1:50

colleges are calling on law

1:52

enforcement to help coming up.

1:54

We discuss what happens when

1:56

law enforcement is used again,

1:58

student protests and. This

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Consider this from Npr from

3:25

New York telling wait to

3:27

Los Angeles encampments and support

3:29

of Palestinians.campuses across the country

3:32

and over the last couple

3:34

of days of the tension

3:36

is only increased as police

3:38

intervened on several campuses including

3:41

Tuesday night at Columbia University

3:43

as well as that you

3:45

Cla when protesters in counterprotesters

3:47

began fighting Juliet I am

3:50

assesses national and international security

3:52

threats. To the The Homeland

3:54

Security Adviser and the Obama Administration

3:56

and for Massachusetts Governor Deval Patrick

3:59

now says. Belfort Senior Lecturer and

4:01

International Security. It's at the Harvard

4:03

Kennedy School of Government. I want

4:05

to talk about a number of

4:07

aspects of what we've been seen

4:09

recently, but let's start on the

4:11

campus of Columbia University, where campus

4:13

officials have been trying to bring

4:15

an end to the encampment. Since

4:17

Monday and Monday night protesters took

4:20

over Hamilton Home Tuesday, a massive

4:22

force at N Y P D

4:24

officers in riot gear moved on

4:26

to that campus. They cleared Hamilton

4:28

Hall without taking a position. One way

4:30

or the other, what's the tipping point for

4:32

a dad isn't like that. So I talked

4:34

to people who are at Columbia. I work

4:36

with people who are helping Columbia and I

4:39

had my youngest is going to Columbia next

4:41

year so you could say I have a

4:43

a very strong interest in hoping that they

4:45

can not just the escalate with going on

4:47

but get back to been a great university

4:49

that we all know it is and so

4:51

what One of think that was surprising looking

4:53

on the outside with simply the vulnerability of

4:56

the of the main building for being taken

4:58

over. These are thus the basic things. That

5:00

can be put in place before

5:02

to essentially help to d escalate

5:04

a situation that can get out

5:07

of hand. but there is a

5:09

difference between protest and unlawful trespass.

5:11

They're just is an even if

5:13

you support the protesters at the

5:15

taking over of a building, the

5:17

destruction of parts of the building

5:19

and the impact it had on

5:21

the functioning of the college and

5:24

university and they'll be debates about

5:26

that justify having a tiered approach

5:28

to getting them out. What. I

5:30

recommend And what I've been saying

5:32

is not only do colleges and

5:34

universities have to have outlets for

5:37

the students, you can't pretend beauty,

5:39

just like silence and entire viewpoint.

5:41

These are legitimate protests about a

5:43

very difficult issue that lots of

5:45

people are passionate about, but secondly

5:48

you have to provide off ramps

5:50

of for protesters in terms of

5:52

escalation techniques and so we'll sending

5:54

the police out. Originally really

5:56

provided no opportunity from going from Youtube.

5:59

Basically you know Def Con Five which

6:01

is pleased to Def Con One which

6:03

is war and is one. Ask you

6:05

about another university where we saw things

6:08

look quite different and that's it. Brown,

6:10

Where are the administration agree to discuss

6:12

student divestment plans to vote on it

6:14

later in the year. Protests their about

6:17

paraded. What do you make of that

6:19

approach versus what we've seen on so

6:21

many other campuses? I'm only laughing is

6:23

because you're gonna think I have twenty

6:25

children. But I have another child at

6:28

at Brown University and I'm well, Aware

6:30

of not as Brown, but you

6:32

saw it at Wesleyan. You saw

6:34

it at Northwestern. Other schools that

6:36

are are trying to d escalate,

6:38

That's the responsibility of an institution

6:40

as a responsibility of public safety.

6:42

We'd have yielded that. Whatever you

6:44

think that the protesters, the responsibility

6:46

of leadership is set to d

6:48

escalate and I think what Brown

6:50

showed itself willing to do is

6:52

actually listen to not say it's

6:54

outside agitators or these are Hamas

6:56

or Hezbollah funded and a disease

6:58

or students with ideas. And that's

7:01

why they're in college and are they

7:03

have ideas that are they want to

7:05

bring to the table and I think

7:07

Browns willingness to listen and to provide

7:10

a forum outside of protests were the

7:12

students can be heard and that's going

7:14

to be in the fall when the

7:16

board meets is essential and was essential.

7:19

For. The of the students to feel

7:21

like they're university wasn't picking sides but

7:23

was willing to listen. I would ask

7:25

you about this idea of outside agitators

7:27

or bad actors or something. We heard

7:29

New York Mayor Eric Adams saying that

7:32

that was part of the reason why

7:34

there a police deployed to protests in

7:36

his city. But it's a narrative that

7:38

we've heard not just about Bees campus

7:40

protests but also.so many other a protest

7:42

movements throughout history. So who exactly are

7:44

we talking about will be Say an

7:46

outside agitator. What does that mean? It's

7:49

it's. A It's a great question

7:51

because I have no doubts that

7:53

there are outsiders in the sense

7:55

of non affiliates of the college

7:58

or university who are utilizing. The

8:00

energy at a college or university to

8:02

make their point. Ah and but outside

8:04

agitators can mean a lot of I

8:07

mean when when the Mayor says it

8:09

does he mean you know foreign influences

8:11

as he mean these are as stupid

8:14

students that are that are being paid

8:16

for by terrorists organizations turn to protest

8:18

Israel and we have to be really

8:21

clear what we mean by outside agitators.

8:23

I will say it the I can't

8:25

deny it right? And and it is

8:28

true that we know foreign entities. Like

8:30

to manipulate or the decisions in

8:32

our society and there's every reason

8:34

to believe that they are doing

8:36

this now are we also know

8:39

that many of the arrest on

8:41

these campuses are people who are

8:43

non a silly at so absolutely

8:45

correct but to argue. That

8:47

what we're seeing on colleges

8:49

and campuses is some out

8:51

workforce manipulating young people not

8:53

only makes a sound old

8:56

I had put really undermines

8:58

the capacity at to a

9:00

d escalate in these situations

9:02

because it is sort of

9:04

treating it as some like

9:06

for an alien that you

9:08

can just get rid of

9:10

what's happening on college university

9:12

campuses and was happening and

9:14

American society is the questioning

9:16

of. Longstanding Us policy and

9:19

a belief that the way

9:21

the war. Being waged is

9:23

no longer. Defensible Or the

9:25

war by Israel and Gaza

9:27

is no longer defensible. Is

9:30

their anti semitism in that

9:32

movement? Absolutely. Ah, and I

9:34

condemn it is. There are

9:36

there outside influences taking advantage

9:38

of it, including a political

9:40

entities? absolutely of. But there

9:42

is also something there. And

9:44

we should give these students

9:46

credit for their own minds

9:48

and their own thinking cassettes

9:50

actually why they're in the

9:52

colleges and universities. julian as

9:54

the ultimate goal of all of

9:56

these efforts is indeed d escalation

9:58

to keep everyone safe, do you think that's

10:01

possible at this point? Yes,

10:03

I do. I mean, you know, we're focusing

10:06

on, say, at

10:08

worst, a dozen colleges and universities. But

10:10

if you look at where the protests

10:12

are occurring, it's not these elite colleges

10:15

where we pay all of

10:17

our attention. It is across the

10:19

country. And I think it's reflecting

10:21

a deep sentiment that voices want

10:23

to be heard about U.S. policy

10:25

and about university policies

10:27

or investment decisions that they've made

10:29

in the past. But

10:31

what we're seeing on colleges and universities

10:34

is a reflection of the divisions in

10:37

our foreign policy. We

10:40

can solve the issue

10:42

at hand, but we're not going to

10:44

solve the overall problem.

10:46

That's not going to get solved for a

10:48

while. Juliette Caim

10:51

is the Belfer Senior Lecturer in

10:53

International Security at the Harvard Kennedy School

10:55

of Government. She is also the

10:57

author of several books, including The Devil

10:59

Never Sleeps. Juliette, thank you. Thank

11:02

you for having me. This

11:04

episode was produced by Mark Rivers

11:06

and Brianna Scott. It was edited

11:09

by Courtney Dorning. Our executive producer

11:11

is Sami Emmigian. It's

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