0:00

This is The Guardian.

0:08

I'm Grace Dent and this is Comfort

0:10

Eating from The Guardian.

0:14

A podcast where we pay homage

0:16

to the lesser celebrated foods in life.

0:19

Because even as a restaurant critic, I

0:22

believe the food that matters most is

0:24

often that snack you cobbled together

0:27

when you curled up on the sofa. Each

0:29

week I ask my guest to

0:32

lift the lid on what comfort foods

0:34

have seen them through their lives. Because

0:36

you can tell a lot about a person

0:39

from what they eat behind closed doors.

0:44

Friends, welcome. You

0:46

find me in my kitchen musing

0:49

over one of life's fundamental dilemmas.

0:52

Are

0:52

you a Beatles or a Stones

0:54

person? I think the world divides

0:56

neatly into the two camps. Myself,

0:59

you see, I like the raw sexiness

1:02

of the Stones. But then it is

1:04

the Beatles who seem to, they just

1:06

reveal themselves more to me as I age.

1:09

Which is why I'm beside myself because a member

1:11

of the McCartney family is

1:13

swinging her way over to my place in a taxi

1:16

right now. Mary McCartney

1:19

will be here very shortly.

1:22

Now before she gets here, I am

1:25

having the absolute

1:28

top tier of

1:30

sneaky snacks. What

1:33

I'm having here is something I've

1:35

been eating since the 70s. It's

1:37

a Dairy Lee Triangle. What am I having

1:40

it with, you're asking? Absolutely nothing.

1:43

It's just primordial goo in

1:45

my mouth. Arrrr.

1:48

Now that, that

1:52

is 1978. And

1:55

my mother's shouting, You're not eating

1:57

Dairy Lee Triangles out the fridge, are you?

1:59

No. The trick

2:02

is to not let the silver paper touch

2:04

your fillings. That's a

2:06

working class joke because only working class

2:08

people have got silver fillings. It doesn't work

2:10

with Invisalign, hang on. Completely

2:14

odd all over my hands.

2:16

Mary McCartney is

2:18

a chef. She's a writer. She's

2:21

a photographer, tether stars,

2:23

and an ambassador for

2:25

Meat Free Mondays that

2:27

we definitely do around here in this

2:29

house. She's also daughter of Paul McCartney.

2:32

She's the McCartney that I want

2:34

because she's the food obsessive with

2:36

her cooking show, Mary McCartney,

2:39

serves it up on Discovery and

2:41

a clutch of cooking books to her name. What

2:44

do you actually grow up eating

2:46

though if your mother is

2:48

Linda McCartney and your dad is

2:51

the father of

2:52

Rock and Roll?

2:53

Vegan Tequila? I can't wait

2:55

to find out what this chef and cookery

2:57

writer is chewing on when

2:59

nobody's looking. First of all,

3:02

I need to get just the punchy bit at the end of this

3:04

wrap. It's disgusting, I know.

3:09

Thank God we don't film this.

3:10

I'll

3:13

just hide this behind the toaster.

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4:35

Mary McCartney, welcome to Comfort Eating. Hello,

4:38

I'm so happy to be here. So lucky

4:40

to have you. I'm going to go deep, really

4:42

quickly. You're two great

4:44

passions,

4:46

photography

4:47

and cooking. You have combined

4:50

them into a successful

4:52

career. Is that the

4:54

secret to happiness? It

4:57

definitely makes me happy and

5:00

it connects me with people

5:02

in the world. My photography, I'm

5:04

always taking portraits of people or

5:06

I like to be invited into somebody's

5:08

personal space. So it feels like

5:11

a mini adventure. And

5:13

pleasing people through food is something

5:15

that definitely brings me happiness. I

5:18

love the fact you didn't shy away from the idea of happiness

5:20

though. You didn't kind of say, what

5:23

is happiness? I mean, sometimes

5:25

I say yes to a situation and then I'm

5:27

a bit on the way. I'm like, why did I agree to

5:29

this? Because it definitely takes

5:31

me out of my comfort zone at times. But

5:34

those are also the adventures I go on. When

5:37

was the very last time that

5:39

you seriously wished that they would

5:41

cancel five minutes before you went to do it because

5:43

you were scared? I don't do

5:45

that so much for when I'm working,

5:48

but more like for dinners when I'm just like, I'm

5:50

one of those people that love to lie in front of the TV,

5:53

eating crisps and dipped in hummus

5:55

and watching

5:56

Gogglebox or The Bake Off.

5:58

Do you know what they call it? it high on

6:00

cancelled plans and that's

6:02

what I get. Whenever somebody

6:05

says, oh, you know when they begin

6:07

by going, oh, I'm so sorry. I can't,

6:10

I'm just like childcare issues

6:11

or somebody's got some kind

6:13

of contagious thing

6:14

and you go, I've got

6:17

time to myself back. Yeah. You

6:20

can almost just feel the bra,

6:22

unhooking the bra. Literally get

6:24

the sweat shirt on, the

6:27

elastic waistband sweatpants on. So

6:31

my two big loves, 80s

6:34

electronic music and Elizabethan

6:36

caught life. So these are my two passions

6:39

and I'm wondering, do you think I can merge

6:41

these into one career? I think definitely.

6:44

That's like a whole new genre waiting

6:47

to happen. I'm sure you've already thought

6:49

of it. Right. Hang on. Let's get back

6:51

on to doing a podcast. We might

6:52

be actually eat

6:55

each week. My guest shares

6:58

with me their ultimate comfort

7:00

snack. It is a ladle of love when

7:02

life has thrown you lemons, but you don't feel

7:04

like making lemonade. Mary McCartney,

7:08

what is underneath my

7:11

slightly stained Fortnum and Mason's

7:13

tea towel? Okay. Now

7:16

that was me trying to be Porsche things. I love

7:18

it. It's a classic,

7:21

the sandwich, the proper

7:23

honking sandwich. This

7:26

is your one. This is my one. This one.

7:28

There's two types here. This one first. My

7:31

main motto is don't be afraid

7:33

of a condiment.

7:36

So there's a lot going on in this.

7:37

Oh,

7:41

there's definitely pickle.

7:44

Yeah. But Branston pickle.

7:47

And you can pickle off the mics. And it's

7:49

the Branston pickle, like the little chopped version.

7:52

So it's much more convenient to eat in a sandwich.

7:54

That's the, the chopped one

7:57

is the one I think. I think it's

7:59

feel like they're being disloyal to the past.

8:01

Yeah. I'm going to dip in here too. And

8:04

then we've got like a selection. So what basically

8:07

my fridge is a collection over the years,

8:09

I collect condiments because they last forever.

8:12

So like the middle shelf has probably

8:14

like 20-25 condiments

8:17

in it or they're like doubled up and

8:19

layered and all the way to the back. Like Jenga

8:21

basically. Yeah. It's just you've

8:23

got one of those fridges.

8:24

I go always with the mayo,

8:27

always. I don't use butter. I use mayo on both

8:29

sides. No dry bites. No

8:31

dry bites. All the way up to the edge. Quite

8:34

liberal. Then I've gone branston

8:36

chopped. Then I've done mustard

8:39

today. There's a lot of mustard in here. I think

8:41

I might have done too much for you, sorry. It's

8:43

okay. I didn't need those

8:44

tastes but it's fine.

8:46

Usually a thinner layer. And

8:49

then I've got this great cheese, which is from

8:52

a himsa dairy. Crazy place

8:54

in Rutland Farm where they leave the calves and the cows.

8:56

It's like a happy cheese. And

8:59

then crispy lettuce and a little drizzle of balsamic

9:02

on the lettuce. So yeah. But any day

9:04

it could

9:04

be different. I love that you called that happy cheese.

9:08

Happy cheese

9:09

keeping the cows and the calves. Actually,

9:12

I did spot some crisps in your

9:14

kitchen. I would love to shove some crisps in

9:16

there.

9:17

So it might be a bit loud. Those crisps

9:19

that you saw were actually pizza flavoured.

9:21

Yeah. So that would have been a real problem.

9:24

And then I've brought you

9:26

something from the new cookbook.

9:28

This is like a chickpea tuna

9:31

type of, it's not tuna, but it's like

9:33

mixed together like a tuna filling,

9:35

which is another thing. So anything

9:38

schmiffed in between two pieces

9:40

of bread is my comfort food.

9:42

I'm going instinctively in for

9:45

the chickpea tuna.

9:48

So first chickpea tuna ever to be

9:51

on comfort eating.

9:53

I like a deep sandwich.

9:55

And where are my glasses? And what I would say is all

9:58

I can have to eat in one of your sandwiches.

9:59

languages. All I can see is two big smears

10:02

of mayonnaise that were found.

10:10

Your parents, Paul and Linda McCartney,

10:12

famously vegetarians

10:15

long before it

10:17

was popular, long before it was a thing people

10:20

spoke about. Your mum, Linda,

10:22

pioneered a vegetarian food range. Being

10:26

veggie in the 70s

10:29

before your mum founded that company,

10:32

what do you remember of

10:34

eating as a family?

10:35

Mum and dad, when we became veggie, they

10:38

said, look, we don't want to feel like we're missing out.

10:40

So it was a lot of remembering mum

10:43

and dad talking about what are we going to have for Christmas

10:45

dinner? What are we going to have? So it really

10:48

normalized it. Eating out

10:50

was a different thing, quite difficult.

10:53

Go into a local

10:54

restaurant, what did they think when you

10:57

all marched in? It was more the food.

10:59

It was just like back then it was a lot of ratatouille

11:02

and sort of nuked vegetables

11:05

and stuff, red peppers and stuff. Ratatouille.

11:08

But yeah, I mean, watching the movie ratatouille really

11:11

makes me want to eat ratatouille because

11:13

that's beautiful. But that's not what I grew up

11:15

eating in the 70s and 80s.

11:18

At home, what were

11:20

the staples around the table?

11:22

Well, I mean, like I brought you sandwiches

11:26

and also because my mum was American

11:28

big chef salad. We had a big wooden

11:31

salad bowl and inside it she'd

11:33

put like the contents of the kitchen and

11:35

you know, chopped up. So it would be like

11:37

lettuce and bits of avocado

11:40

and bits of cheese. You didn't want to miss out. Did

11:42

you feel like you missed out? I think

11:44

eating out was more difficult, but at home

11:47

it was fun. And I was my mum

11:49

would always make the kitchen the most fun part

11:51

of the house. So we'd be

11:53

there and I'd help her chop and cook. And then

11:56

when we got older, she was requesting, she'd

11:58

be like, tonight, can you guys make? fresh pesto

12:00

or something. Birthdays,

12:02

you could have anything you wanted, whoever's birthday

12:05

it was. What did you ask for on your birthday?

12:07

Well, I would often do, I loved

12:09

my mum's cream of tomato soup. And

12:12

then she made them really incredible quiche that

12:14

you'd get it out of the oven and it would rise

12:17

like a souffle.

12:19

You were born in London

12:21

and your dad, not to put a fine

12:24

point in it, he's a

12:25

big rock star. Your

12:28

parents

12:29

tried to keep it as normal as possible

12:32

for you and your siblings, for Heather, for Stella,

12:34

James, Beatrice.

12:37

But as you've grown up,

12:38

are there memories that come back and you think, actually

12:41

that wasn't normal?

12:42

There

12:45

are situations like growing up, we would

12:47

go on tour with mum and dad. So those

12:49

things are interesting

12:51

memories. And I think even

12:54

though my mum was who she was, my dad is who he

12:56

is, they were quite approachable

12:58

and relaxed. You know, we would sit

13:01

having dinner on our laps watching the

13:03

telly and stuff. So yeah,

13:04

it's kind of normal

13:06

snapshot of family life. I know it doesn't

13:08

feel normal, but I mean, things like we'd

13:11

be, as a kid I'd be watching EastEnders and

13:13

dad would come in, I'd be eating and

13:15

he'd come in and he'd start playing guitar.

13:18

And then we'd be like,

13:19

can you,

13:21

like I'm trying to watch the TV.

13:23

But I was like, dad, this is like another

13:25

time.

13:26

Now I

13:28

don't do that. I

13:31

suppose your parents trying to do anything

13:33

that's kind of meaningful and

13:35

soulful is

13:37

embarrassing when you're 12 or 13. Well,

13:39

now I'm that embarrassing parent.

13:47

When you were living with your whole family, was

13:49

it the kind of house where people came around

13:51

or were you,

13:53

some places are and some places aren't.

13:55

Like my mum and dad did not like the pop in

13:57

of people.

13:58

It was quite a quiet house.

13:59

What kind of house was yours? It

14:02

wasn't like a pop in, it was social,

14:04

but it was more planned social. But

14:07

I do have friends where it is just like open

14:09

house. Yeah, you see I can't help

14:11

with that. Well, I kind of want to be

14:13

like that though, don't you? Absolutely. In

14:16

my dreams, if I do home

14:18

alteration, I do it for the imaginary

14:21

me who wants people to come round.

14:24

I do the same. And also because I have that Liverpool

14:26

background. So like for New Year's, we'd always

14:29

go to family parties

14:31

up in Liverpool. And they were some of my best

14:33

favourite memories ever. Yes.

14:35

So we've both got,

14:39

when my dad

14:40

passed away now, but Scouse dads.

14:43

We like Scouse dads. Scouse

14:45

dads, Scouse dads. And I'm always

14:47

interested to see my dad

14:50

in the 70s when he ever

14:53

did childcare, looking after his own child.

14:56

He only had two

14:58

recipes up his sleeve and one

15:00

was beans on fried bread. Yeah.

15:03

And the other... By the way, yum. Delicious.

15:05

I will eat that now. Delicious.

15:07

And the other was beans,

15:10

again, flung into

15:12

his version of spag bowl. So...

15:14

All based around beans then. All

15:16

based around beans. I'm kind

15:18

of wondering, did you not have any recipes

15:21

up his sleeve from the 70s? Yes.

15:24

His recipe that I

15:26

learnt from him was his mashed potatoes. Because

15:29

they're like proper, just really mashed.

15:31

I think one of the secret things he does is he uses

15:34

a fork after at the end just to fluff

15:36

it up. He uses a traditional masher

15:38

and then at the end fluffs it to

15:40

get any other little bits out.

15:42

I love how

15:44

men will just do that one

15:46

thing really well. So

15:49

therefore that becomes their thing. So

15:51

the woman's running around with 11 pounds on

15:53

the go. But then they go, just let dad do

15:55

his mash. You know, it's that.

15:57

And it was the same with my dad then with his... with

16:00

Brussels sprouts. If we were having like a massive

16:02

meal, he would just do the sprouts very quietly,

16:05

but for about three and a half hours while he listened.

16:08

How do you feel about Brussels sprouts? I

16:12

love them, but

16:13

I am wary of them.

16:16

I think that... That's a good answer. I

16:18

think if I'm not going to put too fine a point in

16:20

it, I feel like we know each other now. I think that

16:22

they create violent wins. Yeah, they

16:24

can be smelly. They can even be smelly when

16:26

they're cooking. They're smelly when they're cooking.

16:28

And then what happens is they come out and you put a

16:31

load of something oily on

16:33

them and some salt. And then

16:35

you eat them and you have one and

16:37

you go, this is delicious. They're not as bad as they

16:39

were in the 70s. And you eat another

16:41

and another. And then you go into the lounge

16:44

for the rest of the Christmas day

16:46

in a very enclosed day. Cracked open a window. Cracked

16:48

open a window. And you're trying

16:51

to watch Wallace and Gromit on

16:53

the television and you just think, this is

16:56

ridiculous. My dad always

16:58

like, oh, they're like a perfect little miniature cabbage.

17:01

And I love cabbage, but I love them

17:03

sort of shredded, cut really thinly. And then I

17:05

make them into like a stir fry for Christmas.

17:08

They only cook them for a second so they don't get too

17:11

overcooked.

17:12

And then I love them.

17:14

I'm going to say that al dente,

17:17

Brussels sprouts may be the most lethal

17:20

windwives of all. Nobody...

17:22

I don't remember the way I do it. They're less... I

17:24

don't remember getting wind from them though. I'm

17:27

going to have to experiment. If I ate them,

17:29

I would just immediately go upstairs and

17:31

then just hide until maybe the day

17:33

after boxing day. I'm never making you that.

17:36

Almost, I think the meals after Christmas

17:39

are possibly more delicious. But

17:41

do you know why you think, because I agree.

17:43

I agree. And why we think

17:45

that is because we're antisocial

17:48

and everyone's gone by that point. Right? So

17:51

we love... And we could do that in front of the TV. So

17:53

we love the idea of Christmas and

17:55

being bountiful. Everybody come

17:57

but the most delicious part. is

18:00

the one that you eat directly from the fridge

18:02

when you've literally just got two roast potatoes on

18:04

a plate.

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19:20

Hello, Grace Dent here. If

19:24

you love comfort eating, then

19:26

you'll love my new book, Comfort

19:28

Eating, What We Eat When No One's

19:31

Looking. It's available order now.

19:33

There's an e-book and an audio

19:35

book

19:35

if you want me to read it to you.

19:37

With chapter headings like

19:39

Why Butter Makes Everything Better and

19:42

Why Potatoes Are Proof of a Higher Power,

19:44

How Can You Resist? Comfort

19:47

Eating is packed with funny, moving

19:49

stories about my family and my childhood as well

19:52

as recipes and stories about

19:54

recording the show.

20:06

You spent a lot of your

20:08

summers as a family up in Scotland

20:10

on High Park Farm, a

20:13

remote place surrounded by chickens

20:15

and dogs and ponies. What

20:18

do you remember from those summers?

20:21

It was a tiny house. I shared the

20:23

room with my siblings. It had two bedrooms,

20:25

a teeny bathroom and the kitchen

20:28

living area. It was very compact. The

20:31

thing that came to mind is being outside

20:33

and because it was a farm, you could go out all

20:36

day exploring and building

20:38

camps. The main thing

20:40

is we had horses and I just learned to

20:42

ride by being on a horse riding out,

20:45

the horse tricking me off, me having

20:47

to walk home and then learning to ride

20:49

that way like, oh, next time I'll hold on

20:51

better. It was just like this big

20:54

adventure of trial and error

20:56

and nature, the pleasure

20:58

of being in nature like riding through bracken and

21:00

little rivers. I'd

21:02

keep little bottles of apple juice in the river

21:04

to keep it chilled and then go back and do

21:07

imaginary games. One

21:09

time it went fizzy, probably because it

21:11

had gone off a bit, but then it felt like cider

21:13

or something. That was

21:16

an adventure for me. I'd

21:18

have done my sister Stella by my side.

21:21

That would never happen now

21:23

that people would say,

21:26

just take the horse out and

21:27

if it throws

21:28

you off. I

21:31

know. What effect

21:33

did it have on the family dynamic

21:35

when you all decamped into this wild

21:38

space? It

21:39

was relaxed, but also in a

21:41

way, I'm going

21:43

to use the B word, there were like really

21:45

boring moments. There were no iPhones

21:47

or iPads. It was actually really

21:49

great. I would engage my

21:52

imagination. I

21:54

tried to work out what we actually

21:56

did. I don't have

21:58

so many memories. When you say Scotland

22:01

to me, I'm like, I can remember the

22:03

blades of grass, the flowers, walking

22:06

in a stream with my trousers rolled

22:08

up, just daydreaming and not really doing

22:10

much.

22:11

As a child, when did you

22:14

begin to

22:16

create things in the kitchen? The first

22:18

time was a bit of a disaster. It was

22:21

in Scotland and I was so young, but

22:23

I really remember it because I remember getting

22:25

really excited and going around

22:27

the kitchen. My mum and dad were having tea with

22:29

somebody and I'm little

22:32

because my viewpoint and my memory is

22:34

looking up at the table. I

22:36

just went around and they were having milky

22:39

coffee and some cookie or something

22:41

and I mixed all of it together and

22:43

then pretended I baked it and then gave

22:46

it to them. That thing where they

22:48

lovingly pretended. But I knew

22:50

it was absolutely disgusting.

22:54

But it was so much fun. There's

22:56

nothing like your parents'

22:58

humour in you when that arrives. That's

23:00

when you know you've got great parents. That

23:03

was my first cooking experience,

23:05

but it was inedible. I know that a

23:07

big influence

23:08

on your cooking is America

23:11

and you spent so much time

23:13

there as a kid. Your mum, family,

23:17

they come from New York City and Long

23:19

Island. I love the idea

23:22

of London,

23:23

Scotland,

23:25

then getting off the plane. Yeah, loved

23:27

it. And loud. The yellow taxis,

23:30

the buildings and the delis. The

23:32

delis, oh God. So that's where the

23:34

sandwich is. The pickle. Oh

23:37

God, that's where it all comes from. It was like we'd

23:39

go all the time to visit my uncle,

23:41

my grandfather and my cousins. So

23:44

my cousins were the same age as us.

23:46

So they'd just take us out. The first

23:48

thing we would do when we go to New York to visit my

23:50

grandfather would go to Mimi's Pizza

23:53

and get a huge pizza. For

23:56

New York. The huge pizza that

23:58

comes in the big. Huge, they're like

24:01

eight slices. In New York, you buy

24:03

a pizza by the slice, and like

24:05

one or two slices is the whole meal. We would

24:07

go there and it was just heaven, heaven,

24:09

heaven, heaven. If you walked into Mimi's

24:12

right now and sat down, what

24:14

pizza are we ordering? First of all, you wouldn't sit

24:16

down because it's like counter service. It's

24:18

like bustling New York. You go

24:20

in, you kind of order it. You chat with them all,

24:23

but I would just order, we would just a regular slice.

24:26

What's on this slice? Like a really

24:28

great tomato sauce and just, geez.

24:31

I get anxiety sometimes

24:33

when I first get to America. I get

24:35

anxiety walking into these places because

24:38

they have no patience with people. I know,

24:40

yeah. You need to know what you're going for.

24:42

I've never been to Mimi's before. Are you dithering? I've

24:45

never been to Mimi's before. I

24:48

haven't done any research. I walk

24:50

in and I go, hello.

24:53

And then what do you want? You need to sort of know

24:55

how to cut through New York

24:57

people and give it as good as they give

24:59

it to you. You see, then I suddenly

25:02

just lose my Northern accent and

25:04

then just kind of start speaking louder and

25:06

like Liz Hurley. Which

25:11

is fine, but after a few

25:13

sentences, I'll go back to being Carla. But they

25:15

won't understand you anyway. Or doing

25:18

water is difficult. Water, water.

25:21

Let's meet in New York and I'll take you around and

25:23

I can be your translator.

25:25

Can you go in first in places? We'll

25:28

go in together and we'll just have a bit of fun.

25:39

You've said that as a kid, your mum and dad's touring

25:41

around the world with wings. So

25:45

do you tag along, hang out backstage?

25:49

And I'm wondering, this is long before anybody

25:52

put those headphones on people.

25:55

First of all, I'm worried about you. My hearing, I know, it's

25:57

amazing. I'm touch wood, I have really

25:59

good hearing. I don't know. I've

26:01

been left dancing by the bass bin a

26:03

lot of time. Yeah. But

26:05

you can hear. Yeah. But most

26:08

of the people that I love the most are half deaf,

26:10

so I don't know how I've got away with that. I've

26:12

got like a rutley ear that

26:15

I absolutely put down

26:17

to raves I went to in 1992. You

26:20

know how I've never been to a proper

26:23

rave. I'm so gutted. I feel like I've

26:25

missed out. We can do that after we have pizza. Can

26:27

we do... If you handle the rave,

26:29

I'll handle the New York food.

26:33

The New York rave scene

26:34

are not ready for

26:36

two women probably

26:39

in

26:39

heels and with nice handbags.

26:42

Or are they? Or are they? I

26:44

think they are. I want to do it now. We're

26:47

doing this.

26:58

You've been a photographer for years

27:01

and now. Years and years. Years and years.

27:03

But now. Now you

27:06

have your own TV show. Mary

27:10

McCartney serves it up. It is

27:12

Emmy nominated, I might add. Did

27:16

you find it

27:17

hard

27:18

moving from behind the camera to in

27:21

front?

27:22

It was really interesting

27:25

and a huge learning curve because

27:27

to do a recipe, to show

27:29

you a recipe, my real

27:31

self would be like, Grace, let's

27:34

just chill. Let's get

27:36

this. Let's cook it. It's going to

27:38

be fun. It's going to let's prep ahead. Enjoy,

27:40

enjoy. But when they're cooking, the director

27:42

would be like, Mary, you need to perk up. Tell

27:45

a story. Chop the onion. Tell

27:47

a story. So it was sort of like chop and

27:49

turn and look into the camera,

27:52

which made me feel a bit silly. But

27:55

then I really got into it and I loved

27:57

it. It became sort of quite addictive.

28:00

in a way. And it taught me a lot

28:02

about the recipes that I now write,

28:04

because I just simplified them, simplified

28:07

them, simplified them. What people

28:09

don't know about the Chop and Chat format

28:12

on TV shows is that

28:14

you have to simplify it

28:17

so much

28:19

to get it done in time. So you're

28:22

then kind of filling in the gaps in what you're saying.

28:24

But then when you take

28:26

it over to people to eat, it's often not

28:29

the actual recipe that you

28:31

would have made at home. Yeah, it's changed.

28:34

But then I love those kind of challenges.

28:36

So I've adapted it to being the same thing

28:38

that simplified, which actually has

28:41

helped my style of writing. And my

28:43

reason for doing this is

28:45

simple,

28:47

easy recipes and demystifying

28:50

that kind of aspect of veggie cooking

28:52

being more complicated. So it's actually

28:55

benefited me. I've eaten

28:56

some pretty ropey things on TV.

28:58

I love that. Do you

29:00

know? I love watching. But that's, I love

29:02

watching my mom. And the chef goes, hmm, here you

29:04

go. And they put it down on some kind of live

29:07

television show. And you think absolutely

29:10

none of that spring onion is

29:12

cooked. And that is raw. And

29:14

that. But can I tell you, all

29:17

the stuff that I made is real and we would

29:19

do it and eat it. But there's one thing

29:21

that we didn't get on camera,

29:23

which really, to this day,

29:25

just like comes into my mind

29:28

is the first episode I had

29:30

Stanley Tucci came on as a guest. And

29:33

I made him this black bean burger and

29:35

he's not veggie. So I was fully aware that I was

29:37

giving Stanley Tucci a black bean burger,

29:40

similar to the style of my sandwich I brought you

29:42

today. It's like it's stacked with, you know, all

29:44

the trimming. And we weren't

29:46

filming, but he took a bite and I saw that

29:48

look come over his face. And

29:51

he looked at me and he said, this is one of my top

29:53

five burgers I've ever eaten. And we

29:56

didn't film it. It

30:00

doesn't matter because I could see that

30:02

it was a success. Does it matter though?

30:04

Well, it doesn't. It doesn't. It

30:07

doesn't because I've grown up as a photographer

30:10

and you miss those moments. Then my mum would

30:12

always say to me, if you miss something,

30:14

she's like, it's a soul camera moment. So

30:16

I have it etched in my mind

30:19

as this thing. And I've just said it on your show. So

30:21

now it's in the world.

30:23

It's in the world of something that happened. It's

30:26

a soul camera moment. It's made my

30:28

face just

30:30

such a lovely... And it makes everything

30:32

better because you're like, oh, I can remember that.

30:35

I can feel it.

30:45

For your new cookbook, which

30:48

is

30:49

absolutely remarkable. I'm not

30:52

just saying that. Oh, I

30:54

just read it a GOG. You've

30:57

cooked for

30:58

everybody.

31:00

You've cooked for Liv Tyler,

31:02

Brian Adams, Cameron Diaz. The list goes on.

31:05

Who's been the most awkward person

31:08

to cook for? Oh, well,

31:12

in a brilliant way, I have to say Dame

31:14

Judi Dench. I'm sorry, because I'm obsessed

31:16

with her. But what I love

31:19

is there was a message with

31:21

a list of the things that she didn't like to eat

31:24

and an apology sort of saying, now that you've seen

31:26

this list, you may regret having ever

31:28

asked me. So that

31:30

was brilliant. It was like... Is it true?

31:33

It was a lot of things like red

31:35

peppers or chili and things.

31:38

One thing she didn't like that I really

31:40

is etched in my mind is carrots because

31:43

I actually made her my shortcut

31:46

apple tart, which has four ingredients.

31:48

And I knew she'd like that. But

31:51

I then decided, because I put it up and took it to

31:53

her home, I made the last minute, I made this

31:55

big sort of minestrone soup. And I checked

31:58

the list and I put carrots in. because it wasn't

32:00

on my list. But then she sort

32:03

of looked and I was like, if I put something in and she

32:05

was like, well, carrots, but it was the cutest

32:07

thing because she was like, my reason for not

32:09

liking carrots is because when I

32:11

was a kid, like you'd cut into them and they

32:14

looked like twigs inside. So I

32:16

just loved her even more.

32:22

I absolutely love the phrase sole camera

32:25

that you say that your

32:26

mum talked about. So

32:28

in 1998, you

32:31

lose your mum. We both

32:33

lost our moms from breast cancer. You

32:36

were 29. Right. Oh,

32:39

gosh. Yeah.

32:40

Yeah. Yeah.

32:45

I can tell you how we coped as a family. I don't

32:48

know if

32:48

we did. I don't know

32:50

if we did. I mean, it's like... I don't know why I'm laughing because

32:52

I feel like there's going to be something bizarre

32:55

that I wouldn't have expected as your

32:57

coping mechanism. Oh, God. Work?

33:01

Never stopped.

33:03

As long as you just keep on working, then you don't actually

33:06

have to... Well, my father was

33:08

like that too. I think my

33:11

mum died in like mid

33:13

April. So one thing that helped

33:17

was the time of year. I

33:19

remember it being like the bluebells were out in

33:21

the woods and I remember looking up and there

33:24

being like blue skies and nature. And

33:26

that kind of helped a bit because

33:29

I was like, oh, well, things... It felt

33:31

like a real sort of regenerative time

33:34

of year and flowers blossoming

33:37

and the breeze and the trees. So if

33:39

I get sad, I do a lot of... I've become a

33:41

tree hugger. I search out trees and walks

33:44

and nature. You truly are. And then you

33:46

feel bigger picture, don't you?

33:48

Yeah. I mean, now

33:51

I have a vision in my head of you

33:53

just clutching an oak tree while

33:56

your children go, oh, for the love of God.

33:58

Only because the first time I... ever did

34:00

it there was a tree and I swear his arms

34:03

were stretched out at me and I was walking my

34:05

dog on my own so I was like fine his arms

34:07

are beckoning me in so I actually did give it

34:09

a cheeky little hug but I was

34:11

on my own so nobody else saw. Were you on

34:13

us?

34:14

No I wasn't. It was completely, I was

34:16

on a coffee I think. I was on a double

34:18

Maggie. I was on a coffee. You've

34:22

got four boys.

34:24

I know.

34:25

Two boys

34:26

with your first husband, two boys with your second

34:28

husband. They range from 12 up to 24. I

34:33

can't even imagine

34:36

a house with

34:38

four boys and a husband. I'm thinking

34:40

yeah a lot of

34:43

And a dog. Yeah. I mean

34:45

I thrive on chaos

34:47

and it's busy and noisy and we

34:49

talk over each other and ... Do any

34:51

of them replace the toilet

34:54

roll by themselves? They

34:58

would like to say they do and

35:01

one thing I learnt was that

35:03

they pick up their own towels off the bathroom

35:06

floor

35:07

which I'm very proud of myself. I think

35:09

that's one of my best parenting

35:11

moments. They hang up their own towels.

35:14

I couldn't imagine them going like when they're older

35:17

going to people's houses and just leaving everything

35:19

on the floor so yeah. That's

35:22

Mary's parenting technique.

35:25

So feed them and get

35:27

them to hang up their towels. There

35:29

you go. Toby, one thing

35:32

that is a tradition that you

35:34

emulate from your family

35:37

life when you were a kid and

35:39

one

35:40

new tradition from now.

35:43

Well talking about our mums, what I try

35:45

and always do with them is celebrate

35:47

her birthday. So I'll be like look where do you

35:49

want to go? We can go anywhere

35:52

you want to eat or I'll make

35:54

anything you want. Or I'll get like a birthday cake

35:56

and balloons and try and make things nice.

35:59

So that's a new tradition. tradition. And

36:01

then all the tradition, I mean it

36:03

all goes back to sandwiches

36:05

and bagels. And then traditionally

36:08

it would be that

36:09

moment that I touched on earlier

36:11

is on our birthdays, you get to just have exactly

36:14

what you want.

36:15

And my mum taught me

36:17

this thing which I make a lot with

36:20

for birthday occasions, which is

36:22

like an ice cream cake. But

36:24

it's so genius because it's more of an

36:26

assembly job.

36:28

So you

36:29

get a tin, you get like a cake tin and you

36:34

line it with parchment and then you

36:36

buy any loaf cakes that you like, like

36:38

a Madeira cake, any one you want. And

36:40

you just slice it into like one

36:42

centimeter, half inch pieces and you overlap

36:46

it like a shingle, like a

36:48

pile because you don't want gaps. And you just

36:50

smoosh it down on the bottom and then around

36:53

the sides. So it's like a pie crust,

36:55

it covers all of the cake

36:57

tin. And then you get like three tubs

36:59

of your favorite ice cream. So

37:01

like chocolate, strawberry, mint chocolate

37:04

and let it soften enough that it spoons

37:07

out easily. Put it all into

37:09

the middle and then put

37:11

it into the freezer and push it all down.

37:13

So you've got the loaf cake

37:16

crust, the ice cream all

37:18

filling all of the middle and then

37:20

put it back into the freezer and freeze it solid.

37:23

And then make like just a normal icing.

37:26

Just a normal kind of butter.

37:29

I love that florid plant butter.

37:31

That with icing sugar and

37:34

a little bit of vanilla

37:35

extract and it's

37:37

nice and fluffy. And then

37:39

you take out the frozen

37:42

cake and you turn it upside down,

37:45

peel off the parchment and then

37:47

just ice it and then put it back in

37:49

the freezer and decorate it with those sprinkles.

37:52

And it looks as if it looks like a normal

37:54

cake. And it looks like you have just

37:57

sweated over this cake. It's literally fun

37:59

to make.

38:01

So when you slice into it, you just

38:03

get it out when you're ready to eat and you just

38:05

slice in and it's sort of

38:07

icing, loaf, ice

38:09

cream, joy. I shouldn't

38:11

have brought you that, shouldn't I?

38:15

This interview must come

38:17

to a close. We're coming to the end. I

38:21

really want to know, has

38:23

been part of a very famous

38:27

family, has it been the biggest

38:29

privilege of your life or is

38:31

it sometimes the bane of your life

38:34

or

38:35

is it both?

38:38

I think if I had to choose,

38:40

I would say it's a privilege because I'm very proud.

38:43

I'm now asking me now, I would say it's

38:45

a privilege. I mean growing up I may have

38:47

said both, but I'm

38:51

super proud of my family and I'm really inspired

38:53

by my family and they've kind of made

38:55

me the person I am. So I'm

38:58

going to go with

39:00

privileged, not happy. Yeah, they're going to hear

39:02

this so what are you going to say? I know exactly, I'm

39:05

going to say sad here, but do you think I'm stupid?

39:07

God, really

39:10

literally, why would I say anything

39:12

else? Mary McCartney, thank you so much

39:15

for your sandwich. Should

39:17

we go to New York

39:20

now? Yeah, let's

39:20

go. This episode of EATING was produced

39:25

by Ruth

39:27

Abraham. The

39:32

executive producer is Lucy

39:34

Greenwell. The music was written

39:36

by Axel Koutier. Mixing

39:39

and sound design with Bob Surman King.

39:42

If you love comfort eating

39:44

then please go and leave us

39:46

a review and rating. It

39:49

is

39:49

so helpful to us and

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you can follow or subscribe so

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episode. See you

39:56

next week.

40:03

This is The Guardian.