0:00

Hey, Prime members, you can binge

0:02

all 10 episodes of Cold. Add free

0:04

on Amazon Music. Download the app

0:07

today.

0:08

This season of the Cold podcast includes

0:11

descriptions of rape, sexual assault,

0:13

murder, and domestic violence.

0:15

Please take care and listening.

0:23

The world had gone into lockdown. COVID-19

0:26

had exploded into a full-blown pandemic.

0:30

Schools and businesses were shuttered. Streets

0:33

and cities across the United States were

0:35

eerily quiet.

0:37

It was the spring of 2020, but

0:40

at least one business in Ogden, Utah,

0:42

remained open. Dave

0:44

Moore's sewing machine repair shop. Dave

0:47

and his brother, who co-owned the business,

0:50

were trying to keep up with a sudden surge

0:52

in demand for their services. We were

0:54

extremely busy when COVID broke out because

0:56

everyone was staying home making masks. Dave's

0:59

shop is still located right where it had been

1:01

in October of 1985, on

1:03

the night when Cherie Warren had disappeared.

1:07

The bar

1:07

on the other side of the parking lot, where

1:09

Dave had gone for a drink with his friend, Kerry

1:11

Hartman that night, was still there too, but

1:14

it had changed names and owners several

1:16

times over the decades.

1:18

There's a small office tucked in the back

1:21

of Dave's shop. Dave

1:23

was working in the office one day that spring

1:25

of 2020, when he heard someone

1:27

come through the door onto the sales floor.

1:30

My brother was down on the floor and

1:33

Kerry came in, and my brother's not

1:35

real fond of Kerry. He said, let

1:38

me see if he'll see you.

1:39

So he came up and I just walked down real briefly,

1:42

said hi. You know, what are you doing? And he basically

1:45

gave me the story. He was living in a halfway house

1:47

and somebody donated a bed and

1:49

a small TV to him. And that

1:52

was basically the conversation.

1:54

A modest new beginning for Kerry

1:56

Hartman. Kerry had just

1:58

returned to Ogden after... after spending 32 years in prison.

2:03

Dave had struggled over those years to reconcile

2:05

the charming Kerry he had once known with

2:08

the secretive man Kerry had revealed himself

2:10

to be. To be honest with you, I didn't believe

2:12

he did it until he was convicted.

2:15

They'd remained in contact for a while, but

2:17

fell out of touch during the 90s.

2:19

Years later, Dave wrote a letter

2:22

to Kerry. Just to see how he

2:24

was doing, just to see what

2:26

the situation was. And

2:29

I basically want to know what's wrong

2:31

with you, you know.

2:32

Kerry had not responded. So

2:36

when Kerry dropped in, unannounced on

2:38

Dave at work in early 2020, Dave

2:41

hadn't felt too eager to renew their

2:43

old friendship. Yeah, we both

2:45

changed. Kerry

2:47

and Dave had been together at the bar on the evening

2:49

of Sherry Warren's disappearance, almost 35 years

2:52

earlier. Kerry

2:54

had tried to use Dave as an alibi. So

2:56

it's interesting, one of the first things Kerry

2:58

did after getting out of prison was

3:01

check up on his old friend.

3:03

Kerry had told the Utah Board of Pardons and Parole

3:05

before leaving prison, he had anticipated

3:08

a tough transition. I know there's

3:10

going to be rejection when I go out there

3:12

in one form or another.

3:15

Now, when I can't handle that, that's a risky

3:17

situation for me. I know who I can

3:19

call to say, whoa, my self-esteem

3:22

is in the dirt.

3:23

I wonder if Kerry's self-esteem took

3:26

a hit when he realized he could no longer count

3:28

Dave Moore as a friend. Another

3:31

old friend of Kerry's, Brent Morgan, the

3:33

taxidermist, told me he also wants

3:36

nothing to do with Kerry, which is saying

3:38

something because Brent and Kerry grew

3:40

up together.

3:41

If you go back to friends, I

3:44

can remember him the farthest

3:46

back because of the association

3:49

of my parents and his parents.

3:52

Kerry had written letters to Brent's mom for years

3:54

after his conviction, and Kerry's

3:56

own mother, Donna Hartman, had kept

3:59

in touch with the more...

3:59

as well. Donna was always

4:02

after mom and myself to go and visit

4:04

him and there was a couple

4:07

of times I thought about it and I

4:09

just

4:10

didn't want to didn't

4:13

want to. Carrie's

4:15

mom Donna Hartman had attended her

4:17

son's parole board hearings. She

4:19

had heard him say under oath he had lied

4:22

to his family about being innocent.

4:25

I was in denial.

4:27

I couldn't face up to what I had done. I was

4:29

racked with guilt and shame. But

4:32

Brent Morgan told me Carrie had privately

4:34

held to a different story. He

4:37

hadn't raped anyone and was

4:39

only admitting to the crimes because otherwise

4:42

the parole board would never let him out

4:44

of prison.

4:46

Donna Hartman died in 2013.

4:48

His mother went

4:50

to her grave believing that

4:52

he was innocent.

4:54

Carrie's dad Bill Hartman had defended

4:57

his son from the start. He

4:59

had paid Carrie's bail, put up his

5:01

own money to fund DNA testing and

5:04

also attended his son's parole board hearings.

5:07

But Bill Hartman didn't live to see Carrie

5:09

regain his freedom either.

5:11

Bill died in January of 2020, just

5:14

two months shy of Carrie's release

5:16

from prison.

5:20

Cherie Warren's friend and former co-worker

5:22

Pam Volk hadn't realized Carrie

5:24

was free when she and I met a year

5:27

and a half later.

5:28

Is he out? Yes. I didn't

5:30

know he was out. Yeah. That

5:32

honestly makes me a little nervous. Hmm,

5:35

okay, well, interesting. And he lives

5:37

in Ogden. Yeah, he does.

5:41

I know, because I paid Carrie

5:43

Hartman a visit myself. This

5:48

is Cold Season 3 Episode 10.

5:52

Last Man Standing. From

5:54

KSL Podcasts, I'm

5:57

Dave Cauley.

6:09

Sherie Warren's dad, Ed Sorensen,

6:12

told Salt Lake City TV station KTVX

6:14

in 2019 he hoped to

6:17

someday learn what happened to Sherie.

6:19

Sure, I'd love to know what happened.

6:24

But I don't think I'll ever find out.

6:27

Roy City police were at the time actively

6:30

investigating Sherie's disappearance. The

6:32

cold case remained in the hands of Detective

6:34

John Frawley, who still has

6:36

the case today. John told me

6:38

meeting Sherie's family had changed his

6:41

perspective. Kind of sobering

6:43

feeling that this family,

6:47

they didn't get any answers.

6:49

Those conversations were driving John

6:51

and his fellow detectives to keep digging.

6:54

They wanted to at last be able to tell

6:57

Sherie's dad, Ed Sorensen, they

6:59

were bringing his daughter home. I

7:01

don't know how to explain that other than we

7:04

want answers just as much as anyone

7:07

else. It's important to us.

7:10

John had come to believe Carrie Hartman

7:12

held those answers, and he had wanted

7:14

to ask Carrie about it. I

7:17

went down to the prison twice,

7:19

and then I met with him at

7:21

AP&P, so three times. AP&P

7:24

is short for Adult Probation and Parole.

7:27

It's a state agency in Utah responsible

7:29

for supervising people after they are released

7:32

from prison. John told

7:34

me these interactions with Carrie hadn't

7:36

proved very fruitful.

7:38

You know, I've been in a room with

7:41

some interesting people during this career,

7:44

and he's one of them. It's just very

7:46

different.

7:48

We've heard several people over the course of

7:50

this season describe Carrie as having

7:52

two personalities. He

7:54

could come across as debonair or

7:57

devilish, depending on the moment.

7:59

John didn't tell me which Kerry

8:02

he encountered. Kerry's

8:04

release hadn't come without strings. He

8:06

had to abide by conditions set by the

8:09

parole board. As part of his parole

8:11

agreement, he was mandated to

8:14

submit to random polygraph.

8:16

A lie detector about whatever police

8:19

wanted to ask him about. Random

8:21

polygraphs are a standard condition of parole

8:24

in felony sex offense cases in Utah.

8:27

The results aren't typically admissible

8:29

as evidence in court, but they can help investigators

8:32

figure out if they are on the right track.

8:34

Kerry Hartman had never

8:36

taken a lie detector test about his relationship

8:39

with Sherry Warren. He might end up

8:41

back in prison on a parole violation

8:44

if he refused to cooperate now.

8:46

John Frawley had Kerry

8:49

in a corner. Oh man, yeah, he does

8:51

not. He's not happy with me. John

8:54

called in an FBI agent with decades

8:56

of experience as a polygraph examiner. The

8:59

agent sat Kerry down and asked him a

9:01

series of questions about Sherry's disappearance.

9:04

And he did fail that polygraph test. Spectacularly,

9:08

or so I have heard. Roy

9:11

police have refused to give me any records

9:13

related to the polygraph. The FBI

9:15

won't even acknowledge

9:16

such a report exists, which

9:19

would be comical if it wasn't so

9:21

frustrating. This

9:24

put John in something of a tight spot.

9:26

He's told me the polygraph report

9:28

is important, but he's also not at liberty

9:30

to discuss it in detail. He

9:32

could only give me this three-word summary

9:35

without getting into trouble. It shows

9:37

deception.

9:39

Kerry's performance at the polygraph went

9:41

so poorly, it made John rethink

9:44

his entire take on the Sherry Warren

9:46

case. From that point

9:48

forward, he no longer saw

9:50

Chuck Warren as his prime suspect.

9:53

I asked John, if

9:55

that was so, why hadn't he just arrested

9:58

Kerry? It doesn't give me what it was.

9:59

I need because I have two persons

10:02

of interest.

10:03

Chuck Warren's unwillingness or

10:05

inability to provide a clear story

10:08

about where he had been after Cherie disappeared

10:10

meant John couldn't completely

10:13

count Chuck out. Yep,

10:15

the two persons of interest are still

10:18

Charles Warren and Kerry Hartman. Chuck

10:21

Warren never showed much interest in what

10:23

had happened to his estranged wife Cherie

10:26

in 1985. He had just

10:28

moved on with his life.

10:30

In the last episode we heard

10:32

Roy Police Detective John Frawley's 2015 interview

10:35

with Chuck. You

10:37

say you can't remember too much, but you're doing

10:39

pretty well. You're bringing

10:41

it up like remember a few

10:44

things.

10:45

John had asked Chuck about Kerry Hartman.

10:48

Did you know about him at the time? Did you

10:50

know that she was dating him?

10:51

I can't remember. I

10:54

can't remember that. I

10:58

just can't remember. She OK.

11:02

When he got arrested, it seemed

11:05

like that I heard something

11:07

about that she'd been dating. That she'd been

11:09

dating. I think that's how I found out.

11:11

But I don't know.

11:12

After never said anything to me about it. OK. And

11:15

I never asked for this. Right.

11:18

You know, because I was dating a lot of girls at the

11:21

time. Right. In case you didn't catch

11:23

that, Chuck said he had been dating a lot of

11:25

girls when Cherie had disappeared. But

11:28

we also know Chuck had reunited

11:30

with his first wife, Alice, during that same

11:32

period.

11:34

By the time of John Frawley's interview with

11:36

Chuck, 30 years later, Chuck was

11:38

living with his third wife, a woman

11:40

named Willow. She had sat

11:42

by Chuck's side while John questioned

11:45

him.

11:46

Willow had interjected at one point, saying

11:48

she wasn't surprised to hear Chuck had acted

11:51

unconcerned when Cherie didn't show up

11:53

looking for her son on the night of her disappearance.

11:55

She'd been a pretty easygoing

11:58

guy, too, so when she didn't actually come back. pick

12:00

him up at that time, he probably wasn't too worried

12:02

about it. She'd be there eventually. The

12:05

first time I heard this audio recording, I

12:07

thought Chuck and Willow shared an odd

12:09

dynamic. Chuck and Willow

12:11

had lived together for about 10 years, but

12:13

had only been married a year or so at the time of

12:15

the interview, and they didn't stay

12:17

married long. Three years

12:20

later, in 2018, Chuck filed for divorce.

12:24

Court records show Willow tried to lay claim

12:26

to a lot of Chuck's property, including

12:29

stuff he had bought well before they had married.

12:31

Willow also refused to move

12:33

out of Chuck's house. He twice

12:35

filed eviction lawsuits against her. She

12:38

left under protest in early 2020, but didn't stay gone.

12:43

Willow soon convinced her ex-husband

12:45

Chuck to let her back into his heart,

12:47

his life,

12:49

and his house. You

12:51

might be wondering who you're supposed to root for in

12:53

all this. Neither Chuck nor Willow

12:55

seem very sympathetic. But

12:58

there's a revelation I found in the court

13:00

records that puts their squabble in a different

13:02

context. Chuck filed

13:04

a third eviction lawsuit against Willow in September

13:07

of 2020. It says,

13:08

quote, Willow

13:11

was supposed to help Chuck as he

13:13

had been diagnosed with dementia. Willow

13:16

has not been giving Chuck his medications.

13:21

Looking back, the beginnings of Chuck's mental

13:23

decline seemed apparent five years earlier,

13:26

during his interview with Detective John Frawley.

13:34

In the last episode, I told you how Willow

13:36

was 27 years younger than Chuck. They

13:39

had met and moved in together years before

13:41

the onset of Chuck's memory problems.

13:43

It used to be like this. How

13:46

do I do this? How do I do that? And

13:49

I get frustrated with it. But

13:51

Willow had only married Chuck in a spur

13:54

of the moment Las Vegas Elvis Chapel

13:56

wedding after Chuck's memory started

13:58

failing.

15:59

he had conceived. He hoped he

16:02

might coax Carrie into admitting to Sherry

16:04

Warren's murder by making Carrie

16:06

an offer he couldn't refuse.

16:08

What I tell you next has never

16:10

before been revealed. Steve

16:13

Haney, the investigator, handed

16:15

Carrie a letter from the county attorney. It

16:18

offered Carrie immunity from criminal charges.

16:21

If he revealed the location of Sherry

16:23

Warren's remains, a promise,

16:26

take us to Sherry and we won't

16:29

charge you with her murder. This

16:34

is what's known as transactional immunity.

16:36

It's sometimes used to obtain testimony

16:39

from witnesses or accomplices. See

16:41

season two of this podcast for an example.

16:44

But it's almost never provided

16:46

to the primary target in a major

16:49

criminal investigation like this.

16:51

The wording of the immunity offer was

16:53

broad. There were no hidden gotchas.

16:56

It was a literal get out of jail free card

16:59

for Carrie Hartman. The

17:01

letter even said this promise of immunity

17:03

did not depend on the successful recovery

17:06

of Sherry's remains. So

17:08

long as Carrie told the truth about what

17:10

he had done and made a good faith effort

17:12

to show where he had left her body, he

17:14

wouldn't face any consequences.

17:18

The county attorney had already signed

17:20

the letter.

17:21

All it needed to become binding was

17:23

Carrie's own signature.

17:26

Carrie, I'm told, seemed

17:29

suspicious and skeptical. He

17:31

didn't know Michael Baois, this lawyer

17:34

the cop Haney said was supposed to represent

17:36

him. Besides, Carrie said he already

17:39

had his own lawyer, a fact Haney

17:41

hadn't realized.

17:43

Carrie called his attorney on the phone. They

17:45

talked, then informed investigator

17:47

Steve Haney. They needed time to discuss

17:50

the offer. Carrie

17:52

then left, taking the immunity

17:54

letter with him. About

17:56

a week later, Steve Haney received

17:58

a followup call from Carrie's. attorney, the

18:01

lawyer reportedly said Kerry was

18:03

not going to accept the immunity offer.

18:07

But here's the thing.

18:08

As far as I know, Kerry still has

18:10

the immunity letter, and he could at

18:12

any time sign it, walk

18:15

into the Weber County Attorney's office, admit

18:17

to killing Shuri Warren, and face

18:20

no consequences.

18:22

But maybe Kerry doesn't need

18:24

to do that. After all, why

18:26

would he need immunity for something

18:29

he's insisted he didn't do?

18:31

Maybe Kerry just doesn't

18:33

like talking to cops. Perhaps

18:36

he would feel more comfortable speaking with

18:38

a reporter.

18:40

Let's find out.

18:47

The air feels stifling. I

18:49

sit in the driver's seat of a small Honda crossover,

18:52

pulled into a parking stall at an apartment

18:54

complex not far from the mouth of Ogden

18:56

Canyon.

18:57

It's the same place where Kerry

19:00

Hartman lived at the time of his arrest in 1987.

19:03

It's the apartment complex, where police

19:05

had found a gray suede jacket,

19:08

possibly belonging to Shuri Warren,

19:11

when they had searched Kerry's unit in the rape

19:13

investigation.

19:15

For some reason, Kerry

19:17

Hartman chose to move back here in 2020, after he left prison,

19:19

following a

19:22

short stint at a halfway house. I

19:25

step out of the car and

19:28

walk toward one of the three-story buildings.

19:31

It's the start of May 2021, and

19:34

Utah's experiencing a spring swelter.

19:38

Air conditioners were as I pass by.

19:41

I look at the numbers on the doors, counting up

19:43

until I find the right one,

19:45

stop and

19:47

knock.

19:51

No answer. I look

19:53

at the unit number again, comparing it to

19:55

Kerry's public listing in the Utah sex offender

19:58

registry.

19:58

It's the right place,

20:00

I'm sure. But Kerry doesn't

20:03

seem to be home. Or at least, he

20:05

doesn't answer the door.

20:07

I expected this, and I've come prepared

20:09

with a pen and notepad. What is

20:12

our date today? It's the fifth,

20:14

Cinco de Mayo. That's the voice of my

20:17

boss, Cheryl Warsley, who's joining

20:19

me on this outing. All right,

20:21

let's see, what do we want to say here? Mr. Kerry

20:24

Hartley. This isn't the first letter

20:26

I've written to Kerry. I'd reached out to

20:28

him once before, when he was still

20:29

incarcerated. At that time, I

20:32

was researching the murder of Joyce Yost for

20:34

season two of this podcast. I

20:37

had come across the recording of William Babbel,

20:40

aka Charlie, the FBI informant.

20:43

We heard from him back in episode six.

20:46

I was in a therapy group with Kerry Hartley, and

20:48

I know Kerry Hartley's story very well.

20:51

William Babbel had told the FBI Kerry

20:53

Hartman killed Shuri Warren. But

20:55

Babbel later switched up his story and

20:57

told a South Ogden police detective a different

20:59

guy. Doug Lovell killed Shuri.

21:02

He was afraid he was going to get questioned

21:05

in a random kidnapped murder

21:07

by somebody named Shuri Warren. I

21:10

had wanted to know what Kerry made of Babbel's

21:12

contradictory claims. Was

21:14

William Babbel a liar?

21:17

But Kerry never responded to my first letter.

21:20

So this is why I'm standing at Kerry's

21:23

door. I'm carrying a transcript

21:25

of the William Babbel police interview with me

21:28

as I knock at Kerry's apartment. When

21:30

he doesn't answer, I tuck the transcript

21:33

behind his screen door, along with

21:35

the following note. Mr. Kerry

21:37

Hartman, my name is Dave Collie. I'm a reporter

21:39

with KSL who previously wrote you

21:41

while you were still incarcerated, hoping to set up an

21:43

interview regarding a story I was

21:45

working on about the Joyce Yost case. I

21:48

never heard back, but would still like an opportunity

21:50

to speak with you. I will be publishing a story

21:52

next week that includes a claim Doug Lovell had

21:54

some involvement with the disappearance of another woman

21:56

whom you knew, Shuri Warren.

21:59

of a police interview with a prison informant named

22:02

William Babble. I'd love to hear your thoughts about

22:04

what William had to say. Look forward to hearing from you,

22:06

Dave Collie. There

22:08

you go. So be it. Then

22:11

Cheryl and I walk back to our car and

22:13

crank up the AC.

22:15

I'm about to put the car in reverse when

22:18

I glance at the rear view mirror and

22:20

freeze. Act cool,

22:23

I say to Cheryl, but take

22:25

a look to our left. As

22:28

she does, I reach down and

22:30

switch off the ignition. So

22:32

we're sitting in the car outside Kerry Hartman's

22:35

apartment, having just left

22:37

a note in his door,

22:39

telling him that we wanted to speak with him. And

22:41

Cheryl, what happened?

22:42

And he pulls

22:44

up, backs into a parking spot,

22:46

and we're like, we think that's

22:49

him.

22:49

I recognize the car driving

22:52

past in the rear view being

22:54

a Chevy Avalanche, which is what was listed as one

22:56

of his vehicles on the Utah sex offender

22:58

registry. And he watched him

23:00

get out. Yeah,

23:01

it looks like it's him. So

23:03

we're going to give him a second to get our note,

23:07

and we'll try again. Give him a door knock.

23:10

Yep. We decide

23:12

five minutes seems fair. Enough

23:14

time to read the letter and skim the transcript.

23:17

We wait, watching the clock.

23:20

Then go knock on Kerry Hartman's door a second

23:23

time. The

23:28

door opens just a crack. I can see the

23:31

lights are off inside. It's dark, cave-like, as if

23:34

blackout curtains cover

23:37

all the windows. But enough light

23:40

shines through the crack in the door to illuminate a face I recognize

23:42

in the shadows. Hey,

23:44

Kerry. Dave Collie from

23:47

KSL. I left you a note, but then I saw you pulling

23:50

in as we were getting ready to

23:52

leave. Can I talk to

23:54

you for just a second? No, I don't

23:55

have any questions. OK.

23:58

We'll talk later. Oh,

24:00

who's your attorney? I'd be happy to reach out. Jonathan

24:05

Porter. Jonathan Porter? Okay,

24:08

thanks, sir. Thank you. Got it.

24:13

And that's the entirety of My

24:15

Communication with Kerry Hartman.

24:19

It struck me as odd Kerry had referred me to his

24:21

attorney. At the time, I

24:23

wasn't aware Weber County had offered Kerry immunity

24:25

just a couple of weeks earlier. I

24:28

did reach out to Kerry's attorney, by the way.

24:31

But I received no response. Kerry

24:35

Hartman won't talk to me.

24:40

I did talk to former Ogden Police Detective

24:42

Chris Zimmerman, the guy who had made

24:44

the rape case against Kerry in 1987, around

24:47

the same time I went to knock on Kerry Hartman's door.

24:51

Zimmerman told me he believes Kerry's

24:53

paid his debt to society and

24:55

deserves a chance to prove he is a changed

24:57

man.

24:58

Zimmerman's position surprised

25:01

me.

25:02

He's not someone I expected would show Kerry

25:04

much sympathy.

25:06

Zimmerman's notes and reports include a

25:08

lot of detail about what Kerry reportedly

25:10

did to his suspected victims back in the 80s.

25:13

I haven't shared all of what's in them, mostly

25:16

to avoid being salacious and to protect

25:18

the innocent from additional trauma.

25:21

Zimmerman declined my request

25:23

for an on-the-record interview, but I shared

25:25

what he told me with former Roy Police Detective

25:27

Jack Bell, the original investigator

25:30

on Sherry Warren's disappearance.

25:32

What Zimmerman said about

25:34

him doing his time is true,

25:37

because he has done more

25:39

time for the rapes than he would for a man's

25:41

locker. Kerry had spent 32 years in prison,

25:44

more than double the 15-year minimum

25:47

on his sentence. Over the

25:49

course of this season, we've heard how

25:51

the Utah Board of Pardons and Parole kept

25:53

Kerry in for a few reasons. They

25:56

included Kerry's own refusal to accept

25:58

responsibility for what he did.

25:59

had done. There is tremendous

26:02

repression and denial going on. How

26:04

strongly that therapy would

26:06

be completely a waste of time until

26:09

there's a change of your perception.

26:12

The parole board had at times feared Carey might

26:14

revert to his past behaviors. And

26:18

there was the matter of Carey's possible

26:20

involvement in the disappearance of Shirey Warren.

26:23

But in the end, the parole board decided

26:26

to send Carey back out into society.

26:28

Jack Bell told me he

26:30

doesn't believe Carey Hartman's squared his

26:32

debts. No, I don't feel like he's

26:35

done his time. I also asked

26:37

former Weber County Attorney Reed Richards, the

26:39

prosecutor who had first put Carey away,

26:42

if he believes Carey's paid his debts. Well,

26:44

that's an interesting discussion. I don't know that I have

26:46

an opinion on it. Reed said he had felt

26:49

surprised. Not that the parole board let

26:51

Carey out, but instead that

26:53

it kept Carey in as long as it did.

26:57

Why so? Well, because it was 15 to life. You know,

26:59

generally people were doing 15 years and getting

27:01

out. But I can say that if he had been

27:03

convicted at the same time of homicide

27:06

and the

27:06

rape cases, he probably wouldn't

27:08

have spent any more time than he spent. You

27:11

could make an argument. Carey's already

27:13

received punishment for a crime he's

27:15

not been charged with. Would

27:17

that mean Carey no longer bears

27:19

responsibility if he

27:22

killed Shirey Warren? And I guess the other

27:24

question is, what would a court do with it anyway?

27:26

You know, if you were to convict him now,

27:28

he's probably, what, 75 or so?

27:31

Carey is 74 years old at the

27:33

time I'm recording this. Yeah, so

27:36

what are they going to do with him? If prosecutors

27:38

today charged Carey Hartman with Shirey

27:40

Warren's murder based on the evidence at hand,

27:43

and if that case went to trial and

27:45

you ended up on the jury, odds are

27:48

you wouldn't hear a word about lingerie survey

27:50

phone calls, the Ogden City Rapist

27:52

investigation, or the lies

27:54

Carey told the parole board over the years.

27:58

Courts operate under rules of evidence. Those

28:00

rules spell out what kind of information

28:03

prosecutors can use to try and prove their

28:05

case. The stuff I just mentioned

28:07

would likely not be allowed because

28:09

it doesn't directly tie into Sherry

28:12

Warren's disappearance.

28:13

And even if it did, a judge

28:16

might still not allow it because of the

28:18

risk it could prejudice the jury

28:20

against Kerry.

28:23

This explains why the Weber County

28:25

Attorney's Office offered Kerry Hartman

28:27

immunity. They were willing to give

28:29

up on ever charging Kerry

28:31

if it meant they might recover Sherry's remains

28:34

for her family. Like with any

28:36

person who's lost a loved one, to have the body and know

28:38

where the grave is is

28:40

pretty important. So yeah, I think there's a

28:42

value in doing that even if you don't prosecute. But

28:45

as we heard,

28:46

Kerry rejected the immunity offer.

28:49

I'm not sure where you go at this point unless

28:51

you find the body somewhere. And

28:53

even if you find the body, that doesn't necessarily tell

28:55

you who killed her.

28:59

That

29:00

would depend on where. We

29:03

have two likely suspects, Chuck

29:06

Warren or Kerry Hartman.

29:07

Finding Sherry Warren's remains somewhere

29:10

in the desert partway between Ogden and

29:12

Las Vegas wouldn't directly tie

29:14

her death to either of them.

29:16

On the other hand, finding

29:18

Sherry's remains buried in the backyard of Chuck's

29:21

house would clearly point toward him. Finding

29:24

her remains on the mountain behind Causey

29:26

Reservoir would point to Kerry.

29:30

Most of my attention has so far focused

29:32

on Causey because we have a confluence

29:34

of evidence all pointing that direction.

29:37

It's near where Kerry Hartman lured Heidi

29:39

Poznyne at the start of our story.

29:42

It's where his friends owned land and

29:44

liked to hunt. It's where the elk

29:46

hunting guide Fred Johns spotted Kerry

29:48

four days after Sherry disappeared. And

29:51

it's where an anonymous caller reported

29:53

finding a woman's body. No reporting

29:55

a body that I found. Remains

29:58

that to this day have not been found.

31:39

Her

32:00

daily routine was to meet Chuck at the Denny's

32:02

restaurant just off the I-15 freeway

32:04

in Roy. But she had been late

32:07

getting out of work, so I don't know if she would have

32:09

gone there or not on this particular night.

32:11

She didn't have a cell phone, making it

32:13

difficult to change plans on the fly.

32:16

Chuck wasn't at that

32:18

Denny's in any case. He

32:20

later told police he had gone out for that jog.

32:25

Yeah, I was out jogging. That's what I was

32:27

doing.

32:28

Maybe Sherry stopped at the Denny's in Roy

32:30

looking for Chuck. We know she didn't

32:32

go home because her mom, Mary

32:34

Sorensen, said Sherry never showed up for dinner.

32:38

Everything I have heard about Sherry suggests

32:40

her top priority would have

32:42

been picking up her son. So I

32:44

believe she would have headed toward Chuck's house.

32:47

If you today ask your phone for directions

32:50

from Roy to Chuck's house in Ogden,

32:52

it will route you up Ogden's 7th Street. That's

32:56

where Kerry Hartman lived at the time. Give

32:59

a little more drive time to get from Roy to Ogden,

33:02

and we see Sherry could have driven past Kerry's

33:04

basement apartment around 8 p.m.

33:07

or a little after.

33:09

That's around the same time Kerry's

33:11

friend Dave Moore told me they had left

33:13

the bar, meaning Kerry could

33:16

have already been home by the time Sherry, hypothetically,

33:20

drove past his place. She

33:22

could have seen his yellow truck parked in

33:24

the driveway at the top of the stairs

33:27

that lead down into the basement.

33:30

The two women who had lived above Kerry,

33:32

the teachers Kaylin and Mary, later

33:35

told police they believed Sherry had stopped

33:38

there that night. They told

33:40

Detective John Frawley they had overheard a

33:42

loud argument. And the argument was

33:44

Sherry had found out Kerry

33:47

Hartman was dating someone else.

33:49

And during this argument, they heard a loud

33:52

thud. And then Kerry

33:54

Hartman cusses, and

33:56

then they don't hear anything after that.

33:59

had a history of using physical

34:02

force against his romantic partners. He

34:04

outweighed Cherie by at least 50 pounds.

34:08

It's possible a single blow could

34:10

have knocked her unconscious or even killed

34:13

her. I can imagine Cherie

34:15

then in a panic, wondering

34:17

who else knew Cherie was at his place.

34:20

Cherie's mom, Mary Sorensen, told

34:23

police Cherie had called her around 8pm. Cherie

34:26

had asked where Cherie was.

34:28

She told Cherie Cherie had intended

34:30

to meet Chuck at the car dealership, then

34:32

come home for dinner. But

34:34

Cherie hadn't showed up yet. As

34:37

far as we know, Mary didn't say anything

34:40

to Cherie about Cherie having plans to

34:42

stop off at Cherie's apartment that night.

34:45

So Cherie would have presumably known he

34:47

was safe, at least for a little while.

34:51

After hanging up with Mary, Cherie

34:53

could have wrapped Cherie in his black parka

34:55

before taking her up the stairs from the basement

34:58

apartment

34:58

and placing her in his truck.

35:02

Where to then? He would have needed

35:04

somewhere dark and remote. Maybe

35:07

Lost Creek, where Cherie had spent

35:09

time deer hunting with his brother and cop

35:11

buddies in the past. Lost

35:14

Creek was an hour and a half drive away, most

35:16

of it on the interstate. Too far

35:19

and too risky. How

35:21

about Causey?

35:22

The secluded confines of Causey

35:25

Estates were only 45 minutes from Ogden.

35:28

The route, along Utah State Highway 39, wound

35:31

through dark canyons. And

35:33

Cherie knew his way around Causey

35:36

Estates. He had spent time there

35:38

with friends, like the taxidermist

35:40

Brent Morgan.

35:42

There was a lock gate. Brent

35:45

just happened to have loaned Cherie his key to

35:47

the gate at Causey Estates a couple of weeks earlier.

35:50

Once he's past the gate to get into Causey Estates,

35:53

he can go up top. That's correct. That's

35:55

correct.

35:56

There is no proof Cherie visited Causey

35:58

Estates on the night of Cherie's death.

35:59

disappearance. This is speculative,

36:02

and you should treat what I say here with de-skepticism.

36:06

I don't think it's likely Carey would have spent

36:09

too long at Causey Estates if

36:11

he had gone there that night. It's not

36:13

likely he would have gone all the way up the mountain,

36:16

because in this hypothetical scenario, Cherie's

36:19

car would have still been sitting on the

36:21

street outside his place in Ogden. Every

36:24

second it remained there, he would have been

36:26

exposed.

36:27

He would have needed a quick, but safe,

36:30

drop site. The thing you gotta understand

36:32

about Carey is he's lazy. He's

36:35

not gonna do anything that's too

36:37

hard. Carey had spent the

36:39

first part of that evening at the bar with his friend

36:41

Dave Moore, and Dave had

36:44

owned a lot in Causey Estates at the time.

36:47

Pretty quiet back in those days? It was real

36:49

quiet. Carey would

36:51

have known Dave's lot at Causey Estates was

36:54

unoccupied that night, making it

36:56

a safe place to temporarily stash

36:58

Cherie.

36:59

Carey could have driven from his apartment

37:02

in Ogden to Dave Moore's lot in Causey

37:04

Estates and been back home

37:06

before 11pm. Cherie's

37:09

mom, Mary Sornson, told police she

37:11

had received a second call from Carey on the night

37:14

of Cherie's disappearance between 10

37:17

and 11.

37:18

He had again asked if Cherie had made it home.

37:21

Mary had said no. In

37:23

this hypothetical scenario, Carey

37:25

could have made this second call to Mary Sornson

37:28

after returning from dropping Cherie's body,

37:31

using it to bolster his story. He

37:34

hadn't seen Cherie at all that night. Next,

37:38

Carey would have needed to get rid of Cherie's

37:40

car. He would have taken her keys

37:42

and gone out to her Toyota Corolla.

37:45

Chuck Warren liked to go to Las Vegas.

37:48

He had honeymooned there more than once.

37:51

His brother told me Chuck had gone to

37:53

Vegas regularly.

37:55

It seems plausible Cherie

37:57

might have shared that detail with Carey. If

37:59

so... So, it's conceivable Carey

38:02

might have chosen to take Cherie's car to Vegas

38:05

as part of an effort to frame Chuck.

38:08

If Carey had driven through the night, he could have

38:10

arrived in Las Vegas just before sunrise.

38:13

A quick jog to the airport, a false name

38:15

at the ticket counter, and a breeze

38:17

through the pre-9-11 security process

38:20

could have put Carey on a plane and

38:22

back in Salt Lake City by 9.30am. He

38:26

would have then needed to get from Salt Lake

38:29

to Ogden.

38:30

A taxi cab is one possibility, but I

38:32

don't think someone sneaking home from dumping

38:34

murder evidence in another state would

38:36

want to leave a random cab driver as

38:39

a witness if it could be avoided.

38:41

A trusted friend or relative seems

38:43

more likely to me, but to my knowledge

38:45

no one's ever come forward to say they picked

38:47

Carey up at the airport.

38:49

That's one major hole in this

38:51

hypothetical scenario.

38:55

Cherie's mom, Mary Sorensen, reported

38:58

her daughter missing to Roy Police around noon

39:00

on October 3, the day after Cherie's

39:02

disappearance.

39:03

Her report landed on the desk of Detective

39:06

Jack Bell.

39:07

Jack at first tried to get a hold of Chuck Warren,

39:10

but couldn't find him. Jack

39:12

had then turned his attention to Carey, placing

39:14

a call to Carey around 2.30pm. Carey

39:18

would later claim he called Jack, not

39:20

the other way around. Carey

39:22

said he made that call from work, but

39:24

his time card told a different story.

39:28

It said Carey had taken that day off. In

39:31

any case, Carey had arrived at Roy

39:33

Police headquarters around 2.45pm. He

39:36

had told Jack he had gone to the bar with his friend,

39:39

Dave Moore, the prior evening. Carey

39:41

had said he hadn't realized Cherie was

39:44

missing until that morning, when he

39:46

had supposedly talked to her mom on

39:48

the phone. This contradicted

39:51

what Mary Sorensen described about

39:53

getting two phone calls from Carey

39:56

the night prior. In this first interaction

39:58

between Carey and Cherie, the case was not a case of a crime. Hartman

40:00

and Jack Bell. Carrie

40:02

didn't say Cherie was supposed to be waiting

40:05

for him at his basement apartment while

40:07

Carrie was at the bar. That

40:10

implausible story came later.

40:13

The first newspaper report of Cherie's disappearance

40:15

published the next day, Friday,

40:18

two days after Cherie was last seen

40:21

leaving her work. Carrie's

40:23

upstairs neighbors saw the article and

40:25

recalled the loud fight they had heard.

40:28

One of them, Mary, taped

40:30

a sympathy note to Carrie's door. Carrie

40:33

responded by grilling Mary

40:35

about whether she had seen Cherie at the house

40:37

at any point during the last

40:39

couple days. He had been

40:41

so convincing about how he felt

40:43

about losing her. Those are Mary's

40:45

words from her written statement read

40:48

by a voice actor. He told us

40:50

at that time that he was sure it was

40:52

her ex-husband. The

40:55

next day, on Saturday, three

40:57

days after Cherie was last seen, Carrie

41:00

dropped by the home of his TV reporter friend,

41:03

Larry Lewis. He asked

41:05

Larry to go on a three-wheeler ride looking for

41:07

Cherie's body.

41:09

They had taken the three-wheelers into the foothills

41:11

above the city. Larry

41:13

would later say Carrie had said they

41:16

didn't need to look around Chuck Warren's

41:18

house because police had already

41:20

done that, which wasn't true.

41:23

Carrie had showed up at gatherings after

41:25

Cherie disappeared, where her family prayed

41:28

for her safe return.

41:30

Detective Shane Miner had talked

41:32

to people who said Carrie had claimed to be spending

41:34

all his time searching for Cherie and

41:37

handing out missing persons flyers.

41:39

But then the question is, is he really

41:42

or that's just who wants people

41:44

to believe. He did pass

41:46

some of the flyers around to his friends

41:48

and even his own brother.

41:50

But remember, Carrie's upstairs

41:52

neighbors ended up finding a full box

41:54

of those flyers abandoned in his closet

41:57

after he moved out, a year following

41:59

the

41:59

Cherie's disappearance.

42:17

If Cherie had left Cherie Warren's body

42:20

at Kazia States on the night of her disappearance,

42:23

he might have felt nervous in the days that

42:25

followed as he put on this ruse

42:27

of searching for her.

42:29

It was opening weekend of the annual

42:31

elk hunt. Cherie would have known

42:33

many of the cabin owners of Kazia States

42:36

would be headed up the mountain.

42:38

Cherie might have decided

42:40

to move Cherie deeper into the back country.

42:43

It's a theory his former friend, the taxidermist

42:46

Brent Morgan, told me makes

42:48

sense. If he had access

42:51

up there and could go up and down the road, you

42:53

can find the right place where you

42:55

can one, two, three heave

42:58

ho and it's going to be in a spot

43:00

where people aren't going to go.

43:02

But it's got to be a place that he can

43:04

hypothetically get a body to, right? That's exactly

43:07

right. And there are places up there where roads

43:09

go to those type of areas.

43:11

But it's a big area.

43:13

Cherie at this time still possessed the key

43:15

for the gated Kazia States he had borrowed from

43:17

Brent. Back in episode four,

43:20

Brent told us he had tried to get his key

43:22

back, but Cherie had dodged him for days,

43:25

not wanting to return it.

43:28

So Cherie could have gone back

43:30

to Kazia States early on Sunday, October

43:32

6th, four days after Cherie disappeared

43:35

with his ugly yellow truck and another

43:37

man.

43:38

A man who resembled his younger

43:40

brother, Jack.

43:42

Because this is when the elk hunting

43:44

guide Fred Johns would later say

43:46

he saw Kerry Hartman trespassing on

43:48

private property.

43:50

Kerry could have retrieved Cherie's

43:52

body from Kazia States and driven

43:55

farther up onto the mountain behind Kazia

43:58

to the middle of nowhere.

44:00

Kerry might have backed his

44:02

truck into some trees off the side

44:04

of the primitive dirt road. It would

44:07

have provided cover as he transferred his payload

44:09

from the back of his truck to one of his

44:11

three-wheelers.

44:13

From there,

44:14

Kerry might have gone off into the brush until

44:17

he found a protected, private place

44:19

to once again abandon Shari's body,

44:22

this time for good.

44:33

Back in episode four, we met a former

44:35

Weber County Sheriff's detective named Rod Layton.

44:38

He had led the search for the anonymous caller who

44:40

had reported finding a body near Kazi.

44:42

I was a lieutenant over investigations

44:45

division when I left. Rod told

44:47

me in his experience, most crimes and

44:49

most criminals are not complicated.

44:52

Don't give these people more credit than they deserve

44:55

for being smart or being motivated because

44:57

they're not. Rod said this same logic

44:59

applies to killers who try to cover their crime

45:02

by concealing the victim's body. They

45:04

tend to act irrationally out

45:06

of fear. And they're not

45:08

smart and they're lazy. This

45:10

assumption is common in law enforcement circles

45:13

and for good reason. It keeps investigators

45:16

from

45:16

wasting time on fantastical

45:18

theories. Keep it simple.

45:21

Do I think that this guy went

45:23

up there, you know, carried

45:26

the body back a mile? No.

45:29

But the assumption might break down if your suspected

45:31

killer is a person who knows this

45:33

is how cops tend to think. A

45:36

person with police training.

45:39

A person who knows to take that one

45:41

bit of extra effort. So

45:44

I'm going to challenge Rod's assumption here because

45:47

evidence suggests Kerry Hartman had the

45:49

training, the means and the mindset

45:52

to be an exception to the rule. We've

45:54

now explored a hypothetical scenario involving

45:57

Kerry killing Cherie, then later

45:59

enlisting

45:59

the help of an accomplice to move Cherie's

46:02

body to a place it wouldn't be found on

46:04

the mountain behind Kazi. Moving

46:06

a body is not a trivial task. I

46:09

wasn't sure if the three-wheeled ATVs Carrie

46:11

owned in 1985 would have

46:13

been up to the job.

46:15

If the answer is no, the whole

46:17

hypothetical falls apart. If

46:20

the answer is yes, it suggests

46:23

Cherie's remains could be on that mountain

46:25

today, in a place where no

46:27

one's yet bothered to look. I

46:30

decided to buy a three-wheeler and conduct

46:32

an experiment.

46:34

I wanted to know if it was feasible for someone

46:36

to use a machine like the ones Carrie Hartman

46:38

had owned to move a body off-road,

46:41

into the backcountry behind Kazi.

46:44

But first, some context.

46:49

Three-wheeled ATVs first hit the market at the start of the

46:52

70s. By the 80s, they

46:54

were exploding in popularity. 11 years

46:59

ago, Honda invented the ATC

47:02

three-wheeler, and ever since, folks

47:04

have been inventing new ways to use it. Many

47:07

hunters today will quarter a deer and haul

47:09

it out of the forest on a four-wheeler. But

47:11

I didn't know if that would have been so simple with a more

47:13

primitive three-wheeler. Vintage

47:16

three-wheelers are narrower, way

47:18

less, and are more

47:19

maneuverable than four-wheelers. That

47:21

took them everywhere, cutting new trails

47:24

and ripping up vegetation. It's mainly

47:26

the small all-terrain cycles, or

47:28

ATCs, that are at the heart

47:31

of the problem. Popular with kids

47:33

and adults alike, they're fun to ride

47:35

and go almost anywhere. They're

47:38

also dangerous. Most three-wheelers didn't

47:40

have suspension, meaning they couldn't carry

47:42

as much weight and were rough to ride. They

47:45

also had a tendency to tip or roll,

47:48

causing injuries or even death.

47:49

That's why manufacturers

47:51

stopped making them in 1987. But

47:54

you can still buy old ones secondhand, which

47:57

is what I did.

47:58

Former South Ogden Police Detective Detective Terry Carpenter,

48:01

who I met while working on the Joyce Yost case

48:03

in season two of this podcast, was

48:05

able to secure permission for me to access

48:07

the private land on the mountain between

48:10

Causey and Lost Creek reservoirs, the

48:12

slash in the percent sign.

48:14

Terry and I met at Lost Creek one

48:17

morning in July of 2022. I

48:19

unrolled a large map of the area across

48:21

the tailgate of Terry's truck. So

48:23

we're going to come up Kill Foil all

48:26

the way up to the corral, right? Right. And

48:29

we're going to hang a left. Our target

48:31

established, we headed up the mountain.

48:34

Terry had the key to open the gate. It

48:38

was a long ride, nearly 15 miles

48:40

one way from Lost Creek. We

48:43

came to the spot on the mountain where Fred

48:45

Johns, the elk hunting guide, had

48:47

told police he saw Kerry Hartman and another

48:49

man, possibly Kerry's younger brother

48:51

Jack, on the Sunday after Sherry

48:54

Warren disappeared.

48:55

Terry Carpenter and I stepped

48:58

out into the clearing on the ridge,

49:00

standing there in the summer sun. I

49:03

tried to imagine what reason Kerry

49:05

might have had for coming to this isolated

49:07

spot four days after his

49:10

girlfriend vanished. He had reportedly

49:12

told Fred Johns, the hunting guide, he

49:14

was looking for elk. But

49:16

as we have heard from Kerry's own brother,

49:19

what did he hunt to the best of your present

49:21

recollection? Just deer.

49:23

Just deer. Is Terry stalking elk? Or

49:26

had he harbored more sinister

49:28

intentions? To

49:31

test whether an old three-wheeler could have carried a

49:33

human body from this roadside clearing

49:35

deeper into the forest, I needed

49:38

an object similar in size, shape,

49:40

and weight. I pulled

49:43

three bags of rock salt out of Terry's

49:45

truck. Each one weighed 40

49:47

pounds. I

49:49

spread a set of painter's coveralls on the

49:51

dirt, then poured the 120 pounds

49:54

of rock salt into the coveralls through

49:56

a zippered opening on the chest.

49:59

driver's license listed her as 5'5 and 115

50:02

pounds. So

50:04

this is about as much as a human body would weigh 120

50:06

pounds of rock salt. And

50:10

it is not easy to move. Terry

50:13

and I lifted the simulated body onto the rack

50:15

mounted on the back of my three wheeler. One,

50:17

two, three. I'm a reasonably

50:20

fit guy, but this task felt more

50:22

difficult than I had anticipated. Come around this

50:24

side. You got it? Not just

50:26

because of the weight, the simulated

50:29

body proved

50:29

unwieldy. That is a two

50:32

person job. We were not doing

50:34

that alone. I've never

50:36

moved an actual deceased human body.

50:38

So I'm not sure how well this approximated

50:41

reality,

50:42

but a second set of hands made a huge

50:44

difference. I'm not sure I could have managed

50:47

on my own. With

50:49

the simulated body in place, I

50:51

fired up the three wheeler's small engine and

50:54

headed down the dirt road.

50:57

Having so much additional weight over the rear

50:59

axle took pressure off the single

51:01

front tire, which in turn made

51:03

steering less effective. The

51:05

engine felt sluggish. The rear tires

51:08

rubbed on the plastic fenders, but the frame

51:10

didn't bottom out and with enough extra

51:13

throttle, the three wheeler did go. I

51:16

rode about a quarter mile to a place where I

51:19

knew from my research, an old Jeep

51:21

trail forked off from the road.

51:23

Maps from the 80s showed that trail descending

51:25

into a canyon called Pete Nelson Hollow.

51:28

This was one of the places I

51:30

believed it was plausible. Kerry Hartman

51:32

might've gone on that Sunday so many

51:34

years ago,

51:36

it appeared evident the Jeep trail

51:38

hadn't seen use in a long time.

51:41

Trees had fallen across the path and

51:44

the underbrush had reclaimed the old tire tracks.

51:47

I decided not to try and ride down it myself

51:50

because of the risk of getting stuck. Instead,

51:53

I scouted the old trail on foot. This

51:56

would be a pretty tough path to

51:59

get a three wheeler down.

51:59

You could do it, but you would need to be a pretty good rider.

52:03

And with the extra weight from a body, it

52:06

would not be a fun ride. That

52:08

might have been different in 1985, when the path wasn't so overgrown.

52:14

The old ATV trail ended at a set of springs,

52:17

where water rose out of the ground and created

52:19

a series of murky pools.

52:21

These springs feed into Qazi Reservoir.

52:25

They were surrounded by thick fields of a poisonous

52:27

plant called false hellebore.

52:29

I crashed through it, finding

52:33

it so dense I couldn't see down past

52:35

my own waste. You might walk by

52:37

a human body in this kind

52:40

of environment and

52:42

be ten feet away from it and

52:44

not ever see it. Emerging on

52:46

the other side of the hellebore patch,

52:48

I saw meadows of dandelions and

52:51

clear views farther down into the canyon. If

52:54

I had been on the three-wheeler, I could have easily

52:56

kept riding. It's

52:58

hard to describe without

53:00

being up here and seeing

53:03

this landscape just

53:05

how futile it feels

53:07

if you were trying to

53:09

find a human body up here.

53:12

Still, I found myself getting sucked

53:14

into the moment. I wanted to

53:16

abandon my experiment and instead

53:19

wander, searching for Cherie. I

53:21

knew the odds of finding anything were slim, but

53:24

a irrational hope sometimes leads the mind

53:26

astray. What if,

53:29

I wondered, I just happened to cross

53:31

a chip of bone or fragment of cloth,

53:34

some remnant? But

53:38

no, no delusions of grandeur.

53:40

I hiked back to the three-wheeler

53:42

with a newfound knowledge of what

53:45

I had only suspected before.

53:47

Human remains could easily go

53:49

undetected in these mountain meadows. And

53:52

it's possible, I

53:54

believe, somebody

53:56

could have driven a three-wheeler down

53:59

from

53:59

the ridge into this

54:02

opening. If

54:04

Kerry Hartman killed Sheri Warren, my

54:07

experiment suggests it's plausible

54:09

he could have used one of his three-wheelers to

54:12

move her body into the backcountry

54:14

on this mountain, beyond

54:16

where police might bother to look. But

54:19

maybe there's another explanation for what

54:21

Kerry was doing here four days after

54:24

Sheri Warren disappeared. It's

54:26

a question I would very much like to ask

54:28

him.

54:29

And Kerry, if you're listening,

54:32

you have an open invitation to

54:34

come give your answer.

54:54

When I first met former

54:56

Roy Police Detective Jack Bell, we

54:58

didn't start off talking about the Sheri Warren case.

55:01

Instead, Jack opened our conversation

55:03

by talking about another case I wasn't

55:06

familiar with from the mid-80s. This

55:13

robber had committed hold-ups at a few banks

55:15

and a pharmacy. He was a smooth

55:18

operator who had worn a suit and trench

55:20

coat. He didn't make the ignorant

55:22

mistakes many novice criminals do.

55:24

Detectives

55:35

hadn't had much to go on, aside from a photo

55:37

that didn't show the man's face and a brief

55:39

audio recording of his voice.

55:42

Jack had began to look and listen

55:44

suspiciously at his fellow officers.

55:47

He honed in on one particular

55:49

guy he often saw working out at the city's

55:51

gym.

55:52

One day Jack made a surreptitious

55:54

tape recording of this suspect. Tape

55:57

this guy and turn it over to the FBI.

55:59

voice comparisons and said, yeah,

56:03

I think you're on the right track. This

56:06

sure sounds like it. Jack

56:08

had grown more and more certain he had

56:10

his man, but he had no evidence

56:12

to support that, just a

56:15

theory. Lo and behold.

56:18

The guy from the gym was not the bank

56:21

robber. Jack had been wrong.

56:24

Hard evidence, including a confession, ended

56:26

up pointing to a different guy, a

56:29

former Roy City police officer named

56:31

Boyd Wilcox. And his voice

56:33

was perfect.

56:35

I didn't at first understand why Jack

56:37

wanted me to know about the mistake he'd made

56:40

in the search for this bank robber, since it

56:42

was unrelated to the disappearance of Shuri

56:44

Warren. It wasn't until more

56:46

than two hours later in our conversation,

56:49

Jack came back to it. It's like I

56:51

told you about that bank robber.

56:53

I mean, I left that gym that

56:55

day, convinced I

56:58

had the right guy. Jack

57:01

was trying to warn me. Be

57:03

careful about what you think you know.

57:07

Don't let your theories get too far

57:09

in front of your facts. The

57:12

hypothetical scenario we've discussed in

57:14

this episode probably does that.

57:16

It requires some assumptions that go

57:18

beyond the available evidence. You

57:21

gotta keep broad. You can't

57:23

narrow it down unless there's absolutely

57:27

evidence that

57:28

somebody is guilty and it's right

57:30

there. But narrow it down is

57:33

exactly what Jack had done at the start of the

57:35

Shuri Warren case. He'd focused

57:37

so much attention on Shuri's estranged husband,

57:40

Chuck Warren, he hadn't seen the subtle

57:42

signs Carrie Hartman might instead

57:45

be responsible.

57:46

Jack and I have talked several more times

57:48

since our first meeting. He's admitted

57:51

he loses sleep after each of our conversations.

57:54

None of us

57:56

like to fail. I

57:59

feel like I've done it. failed. Jack

58:01

hadn't at first noticed how Carrie's story

58:04

shifted a little with each retelling. All

58:07

Carrie's stories about her

58:09

waiting there for him with Campbell's

58:11

and wine. Jack hadn't caught

58:14

the significance of Carrie slipping in references

58:17

to Cherie staying over at his place in

58:19

the middle of the week, even though that contradicted

58:21

what Cherie's parents said about her routine.

58:24

He wants everybody to know this is

58:26

her normal procedure and

58:29

how much this lady's in

58:31

love with him,

58:32

supposedly.

58:34

Carrie had made repeated references to

58:37

Cherie wearing his black parka on

58:39

the morning of her disappearance, but

58:41

Jack hadn't picked up on the potential

58:43

significance of that.

58:45

I'll admit, that one's not

58:48

super obvious. It hadn't seemed

58:50

suspicious until police later found

58:52

a gray suede women's jacket in Carrie's

58:54

apartment. It's the tale

58:57

of two coats we've discussed multiple times

58:59

this season. And it leaves Jack

59:01

wondering what other clues might

59:03

have slipped under his nose during those

59:05

critical early days. What did I miss?

59:07

What did I miss? What did I miss? How

59:10

many times have I asked myself that question?

59:14

Former Ogden police detective Shane Miner

59:16

shared a similar sentiment with me when we

59:18

spoke about the search for Cherie. You hate

59:20

to miss it and there's been cases where

59:23

I've worked and I've missed things and then you go back

59:25

and when you realize what you miss it's like hey

59:27

we'll make that mistake again. Do you

59:29

think this case is solvable? I

59:33

think it's a long

59:35

shot but hate to say

59:37

it's not. I think

59:40

there's a chance. What

59:42

would solving it look like? Is it just

59:44

getting

59:44

the answer? Is it getting a conviction?

59:47

Is it finding a body? Well

59:49

my opinion on that would be I

59:53

think it's solvable but

59:55

an effective prosecution I think would be extremely

59:58

difficult at this point in

1:00:01

We

1:00:01

might someday get a definitive answer

1:00:03

to the question, what happened to Sheri

1:00:05

Warren? But the window

1:00:07

of opportunity to hold anyone accountable

1:00:10

is rapidly closing.

1:00:13

Consider what might happen if a prosecutor

1:00:15

were to try and charge Carrie Hartman with murder

1:00:17

today based on the current evidence. They

1:00:20

would first have to clear the hurdle of convincing

1:00:23

a judge probable cause existed to believe

1:00:25

Carrie committed the crime. The

1:00:27

circumstantial evidence we've uncovered in this podcast

1:00:30

likely achieves that. But it's not

1:00:32

likely to meet the higher standard of

1:00:35

proof beyond a reasonable doubt required for

1:00:37

a criminal conviction.

1:00:39

In the US justice system, the

1:00:41

accused are presumed innocent unless and

1:00:43

until they are proven guilty. It's

1:00:46

up to the prosecution to present that

1:00:48

proof. It doesn't have to be absolute

1:00:51

proof, but it must be enough to convince

1:00:53

a judge or jury no other

1:00:56

reasonable explanation exists.

1:00:59

Apply that standard to what

1:01:01

we know of Sheri Warren's disappearance. Could

1:01:04

a serial killer have abducted Sheri off

1:01:06

the streets of Salt Lake City? Unlikely,

1:01:09

but not impossible. That's

1:01:11

doubt, but maybe not reasonable

1:01:14

doubt. Could Chuck Warren

1:01:17

have killed Sheri in anger over their stalled

1:01:19

divorce? Maybe he set

1:01:21

up their meeting at Wagstaff Toyota as

1:01:24

part of a plot.

1:01:25

That's doubt.

1:01:26

And it's reasonable, given what

1:01:28

we know about how Chuck attacked his first wife

1:01:31

with a tire iron during their divorce.

1:01:33

Convincing a judge or jury beyond

1:01:36

a reasonable doubt, Chuck Warren or

1:01:38

Carrie Hartman killed Sheri would

1:01:41

require more than just a good theory.

1:01:43

It would take hard proof. Investigator

1:01:47

Shane Miner spent years trying to find

1:01:50

that proof. I'm not going to ask you to say

1:01:52

a name, but do you feel like you know who was responsible

1:01:54

in this case?

1:01:55

I think so. I

1:01:58

think there's one person who knows exactly what it is.

1:02:00

happened. And I don't

1:02:03

think that person's going to admit to it. Maybe

1:02:06

on his dying death bed, but I doubt

1:02:08

it. I

1:02:11

don't think Shane was talking about

1:02:13

Chuck Warren. Cherie's

1:02:15

ex-husband, Charles Chuck

1:02:18

Warren, died on October 22,

1:02:20

2022, as a result of his dementia. Chuck

1:02:25

had lived most of his life in Ogden, aside

1:02:28

from a brief stint in Roseville, California

1:02:30

during the 70s, working for the railroad.

1:02:33

He had one brother, Richard,

1:02:35

but they hadn't been close for much of Chuck's life.

1:02:37

They only reconciled in Chuck's later

1:02:40

years.

1:02:41

Richard told me Chuck had been a car nut, whose

1:02:43

favorite pastime had been taking long road

1:02:46

trips all across the American West.

1:02:49

Chuck Warren's death occurred very

1:02:51

late in the reporting process for this podcast.

1:02:54

It underscored to me Cherie Warren's

1:02:56

case runs a very real risk of

1:02:59

soon becoming unsolvable.

1:03:02

Earlier in this episode, you

1:03:04

heard Cherie's dad, Ed Sorensen, say

1:03:06

he didn't think he would ever know the truth of what

1:03:09

happened to his daughter.

1:03:10

Ed was right. He

1:03:13

passed away in December of 2021.

1:03:16

People involved in the case are passing

1:03:18

away. That's happening. That's

1:03:21

again the voice of Roy Police Detective

1:03:23

John Frawley. So, yes,

1:03:26

the clock is ticking.

1:03:28

Absolutely. At the

1:03:30

time I'm recording this, Kerry

1:03:32

Hartman is still alive.

1:03:35

He is the last man standing.

1:03:38

And the evidence suggests Kerry

1:03:40

has never been fully forthcoming

1:03:43

about his actions during the days

1:03:45

surrounding Cherie Warren's disappearance.

1:03:49

Detective John Frawley told me he's

1:03:51

not giving up, but he needs

1:03:53

our help. If someone

1:03:56

interacted with Cherie Warren,

1:03:59

Kerry Hartman,

1:03:59

or Charles Warren on October

1:04:02

2nd, 1985, and

1:04:05

maybe they haven't spoken to law enforcement.

1:04:07

I would love to speak to them. Our

1:04:10

ultimate goal is, you know, getting a case

1:04:12

filed in prosecution.

1:04:27

My

1:04:30

job as a journalist is a bit different

1:04:32

than a detective's or a prosecutor's or a judge's.

1:04:46

I'm not trying to make an arrest, to

1:04:48

prove a case beyond a reasonable doubt, or

1:04:51

to decide guilt or innocence under the law.

1:04:53

My role is to uncover

1:04:55

and report truth. So

1:04:58

as we bring our story to a close, allow

1:05:00

me to share the truth I have found while investigating

1:05:03

Cherie Warren's case.

1:05:05

As I speak to you now, I'm

1:05:07

looking at a picture of Cherie from 1970 or so, when

1:05:11

she was about 10 years old.

1:05:13

Cherie is staring into the camera lens. I

1:05:16

see youthful curiosity and determination

1:05:19

in her eyes. Cherie's

1:05:21

life held so much potential.

1:05:23

She grew up and was just finding

1:05:26

her own path when someone stole

1:05:28

that life from her.

1:05:30

I've had a few people say to me, boy,

1:05:33

Cherie sure knew how to pick him, or she

1:05:36

sure had poor taste in men, as

1:05:38

if her murder was somehow her own

1:05:40

fault.

1:05:41

We have to stop doing

1:05:44

that. Stop putting the blame

1:05:46

on women when they are lied to, manipulated

1:05:50

or abused by the people who are supposed

1:05:52

to love them.

1:05:54

More than half of the women who die by

1:05:56

homicide in the United States each year, man

1:06:00

who is either their current or past

1:06:02

intimate partner. Cherie

1:06:04

had both a current partner and a past

1:06:07

partner who became plausible suspects

1:06:09

in her death.

1:06:11

So I can't tell you who killed Cherie,

1:06:14

but I can say she is not

1:06:16

responsible for the heartless actions of

1:06:18

the two men in her life.

1:06:20

Cherie's estranged husband, Chuck

1:06:22

Warren, should have shown a bare minimum

1:06:25

of human concern about her welfare.

1:06:27

But he didn't. She acted

1:06:30

as if her disappearance came as a favor.

1:06:32

Cherie's short-term boyfriend,

1:06:35

Carrie Hartman, roleplayed

1:06:37

the part of a respectable man while

1:06:40

steering the investigation away from himself

1:06:43

and terrorizing an entire community

1:06:46

of unsuspecting women. We

1:06:49

can only imagine what

1:06:51

he subjected Cherie to during

1:06:54

their brief time together. Stories

1:06:57

in relationships doesn't always lead

1:07:00

to murder,

1:07:01

but there are stories like Cherie's

1:07:04

where everything escalates until

1:07:07

there is no coming back.

1:07:10

We have to do better than this. That

1:07:14

is my truth. If

1:07:35

you have experienced abuse or sexual

1:07:37

violence, you are not alone.

1:07:40

There are trained experts ready to listen and

1:07:43

help. In the United States, survivors

1:07:45

of rape and sexual assault can connect

1:07:48

to free resources through the Rape Abuse

1:07:50

and Incest National Network at

1:07:53

RAINN.org. If

1:07:56

you or someone you know is experiencing domestic

1:07:59

abuse, in any case, you can contact form, you

1:08:01

can reach the National Domestic Violence

1:08:03

Hotline

1:08:04

at thehotline.org. Cold

1:08:07

is a production of KSL

1:08:09

podcasts and Wondery in

1:08:11

association with Workhouse Media.

1:08:15

Thank you for listening.

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