0:00

Hey, Prime members, you can binge

0:02

all 10 episodes of Cold. Add free

0:04

on Amazon Music. Download the app

0:07

today.

0:08

This season of the Cold Podcast includes

0:11

descriptions of rape, sexual assault,

0:13

murder, and domestic violence. Please

0:16

take care in listening. A

0:26

human skull rolled down

0:28

a brushy hill. Between a suburban

0:31

neighborhood and a busy Utah highway.

0:34

The cranium came to rest in

0:37

a litter of decaying leaves at

0:39

the base of a barren scrub oak tree.

0:42

It sat there for some time, hours,

0:45

days, months. Before

0:47

a man walking his dog caught a glimpse

0:49

of it. What

0:51

you got there? The man who

0:54

initially found it walks

0:56

along this furnished road every day and

0:59

noticed something in the bushes.

1:01

He wasn't sure what it was at first. Just

1:04

that it appeared round and off-white. Out

1:06

of place amid the drab remains of last

1:09

autumn's long fallen foliage. But

1:11

it had captured his curiosity, so

1:13

he went in for a closer look.

1:17

Only then could he see the unmistakable

1:19

shape of the hollow eye sockets. The

1:22

six teeth still stubbornly lodged

1:24

into the maxilla. This was

1:26

once the head of a living human being. But

1:29

judging by the brittle appearance of the bone,

1:32

this person had been dead for quite some

1:34

time.

1:35

The man, recognizing the skull

1:38

as the partial remains of a person, recoiled,

1:41

then pulled out his phone and

1:43

called 911. Davis

1:46

County Sheriff's deputies rushed to the site.

1:49

They put up crime scene tape as the frigid

1:51

dark of the February night descended. A

1:54

sergeant fielded questions from curious reporters,

1:56

her face lit by the hard lights of the TV

1:58

cameras.

1:59

breath, turning to fog in the chill.

2:02

You don't know if an animal could have brought

2:04

it from a different location. There's so many factors

2:07

that we're going to try to piece together and find the origin

2:10

of this skull.

2:10

In other words, they didn't know

2:12

much. In the days that followed, crime

2:15

scene technicians scoured the hill for

2:17

more bones. They uncovered a shallow

2:19

grave at the top of that hill, just

2:22

a few feet behind the backyards of several

2:24

homes. The grave contained

2:27

the skeletal remains of a young

2:29

woman. It was a little disturbing

2:31

to realize that there's parts

2:34

of a remnants of a body there. This

2:36

discovery of a clandestine gravesite in early 2015

2:38

along US Highway 89 between

2:40

Salt Lake City and Ogden

2:43

resulted in police agencies all across

2:45

Utah, questioning if the bones

2:47

belonged to one of their missing people.

2:50

Police in the city of Roy hoped

2:52

the skull might belong to Sherry Warren. The

2:55

grave sat midway between where Sherry had

2:57

lived and where she had disappeared. Jack

3:00

Bell, the original investigator on the

3:02

Sherry Warren case, had retired six

3:04

years earlier in 2009 as

3:07

assistant chief for the Roy City Police Department.

3:10

He had never stopped wondering what had happened

3:12

to Sherry.

3:14

The last time I talked to anybody

3:16

out here about that case, they

3:19

had a pretty good size cardboard

3:21

box full

3:23

of stuff. That stuff included

3:26

Jack's handwritten notes. Jack

3:28

told Meheat at one time tried to type those chicken

3:30

scratches into a computer. Because I wasn't

3:32

very proud of the work and I

3:35

know my handwriting is terrible, but

3:39

I didn't give very far. So

3:42

the notes had gone back into the box and

3:44

the box had gone onto a shelf,

3:46

all but forgotten. It

3:48

had collected dust. Until

3:50

that skull rolled down a

3:52

hill next to a busy highway between

3:55

Salt Lake and Ogden.

3:59

I was just in my office one day and my

4:02

supervisor comes in

4:05

with a box, one of those cardboard boxes

4:07

and said, hey, they

4:09

found remains in Davis

4:11

County. So we're reopening this

4:14

cold case. It was Shrewarren. And

4:17

I didn't I honestly didn't know much

4:20

about the Shrewarren case at all.

4:22

That's the voice of Detective John Frawley.

4:25

He had started with the Roy City Police Department

4:27

in 2008, meaning his and

4:29

Jack Bell's paths crossed only briefly.

4:32

John had only been a cop about six

4:34

years when he ended up with Jack Bell's

4:37

old box of Shrewarren case files.

4:39

He was still relatively new to investigations

4:42

but had a sharp analytical mind.

4:45

The box contained Jack Bell's notes, a

4:48

copy of the statement Kerry Hartman had given

4:50

to his private investigator, reports

4:52

from Las Vegas police about the discovery

4:55

of Shrewarren's car and a few other tidbits.

4:58

John told me he had seen Shrewarren's face hundreds

5:00

of times without ever realizing it. Shrewarren's

5:03

picture was actually

5:05

in a display case in our lobby

5:08

and I never made the connection.

5:11

John had never stopped to study

5:13

that old missing persons flyer.

5:15

It looked a lot like the one Kerry Hartman

5:18

had carried into Jack Bell's office almost

5:21

30 years earlier.

5:23

The box also contained one of those old

5:25

flyers Kerry Hartman had printed. John

5:29

looked at it, seeing again the

5:31

photocopied picture of a smiling

5:33

Shrewarren. He picked

5:36

through the rest of the cardboard box, pulling

5:38

out Jack's notes, struggling to decipher

5:41

the former detective's handwriting.

5:43

John read the original missing persons

5:45

report. It described how Mary Sorensen

5:48

had called police the day after Cherie

5:50

failed to return home from work one October

5:52

evening. Mary really kept

5:55

her finger in the pulse of the case, you know,

5:57

and was involved.

5:58

John decided Roy pulled out. police needed

6:00

to reconnect with Cherie's relatives. I

6:03

met with some of Cherie Warren's family members

6:05

and just to collect some DNA so we had

6:08

something to compare to. In the process,

6:10

he learned Cherie's mom Mary had died about

6:13

two years earlier.

6:14

I was never able to

6:16

meet her and talk with her. But he did

6:19

meet Cherie's dad, Ed Sorensen,

6:21

as well as her son. In talking

6:24

with her son, he asked about that.

6:26

He said, you know, is her picture still

6:29

out in the lobby? And I said, yes.

6:31

And it's, you know, it's

6:34

important to them.

6:35

These interactions drove home to John

6:38

just how frustrating the years

6:40

with no answers must have been to the people

6:42

who cared most about Cherie.

6:44

So John went back to that

6:46

banker's box of old case notes and reports.

6:49

Yeah, literally taken off the shelf. Yeah.

6:52

The case didn't have everything, only a fragment

6:54

of the Cherie Warren case covering the first year

6:57

and a half of the investigation. That's

6:59

because, as I've mentioned before, the

7:01

case had been split between investigators

7:04

from Roy, Ogden, and Salt

7:06

Lake City.

7:07

So John didn't yet have a full picture of

7:09

the case, but he found himself fascinated

7:12

by what he had seen. I was taken at

7:14

home and reading it, you know, it was just, I

7:16

was hooked on it.

7:17

Yeah, I know the feeling, John.

7:21

Meanwhile, the office of the Utah State

7:23

Medical Examiner was trying to identify

7:25

the bones found on that hillside. John

7:28

sent the medical examiner one of the items he had

7:30

found in the box, Cherie's dental

7:32

records, for the sake of comparison. Everything

7:35

sort of fit, meaning the time frame,

7:38

it was a female, it was

7:40

the same stature that Cherie

7:43

Warren was. Cherie's case had been

7:45

dormant nearly a decade when the discovery

7:47

of these skeletal remains infused Detective

7:50

John Frawley with a desire

7:51

to find answers for Cherie's family.

7:54

And I felt like, I felt like there

7:56

was more that I could do on it as an

7:59

investigation.

7:59

That's what you're driven to do, you

8:02

know, dig in.

8:05

This is Cold, Season 3, Episode 9,

8:08

a picture in the lobby. From

8:11

KSL Podcasts, I'm Dave

8:13

Cauley.

8:24

Troy Police Detective John Frawley had

8:26

picked up the Cherie Warren cold case in

8:28

February of 2015, after

8:31

the discovery of unidentified skeletal

8:33

remains in a clandestine grave. I

8:36

started reading through this information

8:38

in this box, and that's

8:40

how the cold case started. John

8:43

couldn't get Cherie's case out of his head. He

8:45

had done some preliminary research and re-established

8:48

contact with Cherie's family, but

8:50

he wanted to do more, so he had

8:52

gone to talk to his boss.

8:54

Carl Marino, C-A-R-L,

8:56

and Marino, M-E-R-I-N-O. Carl

8:59

Marino served as Chief of Police for

9:02

Roy City from March of 2015 to May of 2021.

9:06

We're going to spend a little time diving into

9:08

Carl's background now, to help you better

9:11

understand his philosophy on cold cases.

9:14

It's important because it shows why he was willing

9:16

to greenlight John Frawley's continued

9:19

work on the Cherie Warren case, and he

9:21

had bumped up against one of the two suspects,

9:24

Kerry Hartman, several times

9:26

over the years. It's been really interesting

9:28

to think how that

9:31

case and my career have interacted. So

9:33

let's look at Carl Marino's history with the

9:35

Cherie Warren case.

9:36

Carl started as a cop

9:39

in 1983, when he took an unpaid,

9:41

volunteer position as a reserve officer

9:43

with the Ogden Police Department. He

9:45

signed on to the Reserve Corps right after

9:48

Ogden Police Brass kicked Kerry Hartman

9:50

out of it. Carl told me he

9:52

had known Kerry back then from his day

9:54

job. He would come in where I

9:57

worked as an industrial supply

9:59

sales rep.

9:59

And so I knew him from there. We

10:02

had talked a little bit, but not much. He

10:05

was a really outgoing guy. Came

10:08

across always as very confident.

10:12

You got the feeling that he thought he was better than everybody

10:14

else. And kind of that feeling of he

10:17

had a scam going on everybody. You know how somebody's

10:19

always getting over. That was kind of the way

10:21

he came across. It wasn't until a few

10:23

years into Carl's time as an Ogden Reserve officer

10:26

that he came to see Kerry Hartman in

10:28

a different light.

10:29

I was at work the one day and I got called

10:32

by our coordinator

10:34

who coordinated with the reserves.

10:36

And he said, I need you

10:38

to come to the police station and bring

10:41

your gun. And that usually

10:43

means you've done something wrong and they're

10:45

taking your gun away and not let

10:48

you volunteer anymore. And I thought,

10:50

I can't think of anything I could have done that

10:52

would have done that. So I went home and got

10:55

it and took it, to Ogden Police Department. And

10:57

he said, your gun was issued

11:00

to Kerry Hartman when he was a reserve

11:02

with Ogden. And he has intimated

11:05

that he used a gun

11:06

with several of his rapes. And

11:09

we're thinking that it was probably this

11:11

gun. So we're taking it back to use as

11:14

evidence in case we can actually

11:16

prove something with that. He only

11:18

knew from reading the newspaper Kerry had also

11:20

been dating Cherie Warren when she had disappeared.

11:23

It's easy to imagine

11:26

that something happened between

11:28

the two of them that got out of hand. Two

11:30

years later, Karl took a full time paid

11:33

position as a police officer. August

11:35

of 89, I got hired with Roy

11:37

PD. By that point, the Cherie Warren

11:39

case was already four years old and well

11:42

on its way to going cold.

11:44

Five more years went by before

11:46

in 1994, Karl

11:48

switched departments. He became

11:50

a detective for Salt Lake City. I

11:53

was assigned a homicide. And

11:56

while I was assigned there, we started

11:59

to work.

11:59

cold cases. Carl had arrived in

12:02

Salt Lake right at the end of that department's

12:04

search for a suspected serial killer, a

12:06

search that had soaked up a lot of money and

12:08

manpower without much to show for it.

12:11

Nothing was getting solved. As we've already

12:13

seen in past episodes.

12:15

I was assigned to look into some

12:17

of those cases from the mid-80s,

12:20

and that's the same time that Shari Warren

12:22

went missing from Salt Lake.

12:25

Carl saw how jurisdictional politics

12:27

had made Shari's case a hot potato from

12:30

the start. The last place she was known

12:32

that people knew where she was was Salt Lake,

12:35

so the case should have been handled out

12:37

of Salt Lake. But they said, no,

12:40

she's a Roy's citizen, and so we're not going

12:42

to work it.

12:43

Roy police detective Jack Bell had worked

12:45

Shari's case for a few years before

12:48

handing it off to the Ogden Police Department, where

12:50

it promptly went cold.

12:52

Ogden detective Shane Miner had

12:54

picked Shari's case up again in 1998, honing in

12:56

on Kerry Hartman

12:59

as his lead suspect.

13:00

And so they thought that there was a connection

13:02

there, since he was a convicted

13:05

rapist as well. But Shane's

13:07

investigation had itself stalled in 2006,

13:10

leaving Shari's case cold once again.

13:13

All the information Shane had gathered

13:15

up to that point remained with him. His

13:18

report didn't find its way into the hands

13:20

of Salt Lake detectives like Carl

13:22

Marino. Shane

13:24

told me he had taken part in a few cold case

13:26

conferences over the years. He had

13:29

presented the Shari Warren case, hoping

13:31

to drum up some help.

13:32

He put a bunch of guys together, a bunch of cops especially,

13:35

and everybody's going to have great ideas.

13:38

But then there's the follow through of, OK,

13:40

who's going to do what and make sure this gets

13:42

done. It had felt like doing a group

13:44

project in school. A lot of people

13:46

had great ideas, but no one seemed

13:49

interested in doing the actual work.

13:51

Years passed. Carl

13:53

Marino was approaching retirement from his

13:56

job in Salt Lake City when, one day,

13:58

he saw yellow crime scene.

13:59

tape out of the corner of his eye while

14:02

driving home from work. The body

14:04

on the east side of 89. The

14:07

spot where the dog walker had found

14:09

that skull.

14:11

I was still in Salt Lake when they found

14:13

her.

14:14

Carl followed the news of the discovery, wondering

14:17

if the bones might belong to Cherie Warren.

14:19

Deputies aren't saying who they have questioned in

14:21

this current case, and they're not disclosing the

14:24

cause of death at this time. Dental records

14:26

allowed the medical examiner to identify the skeletal

14:28

remains as those of a missing woman

14:31

who had disappeared during the 1980s. But

14:34

the medical examiner told Detective John

14:37

Frawley the bones did not

14:39

belong to Cherie Warren. The

14:41

remains were later identified as

14:44

Teresa

14:44

Greaves. She was 23 years

14:46

old when she disappeared back in 1983, and

14:49

right now deputies here in Davis County are

14:51

investigating this as a homicide case. If

14:53

this sounds familiar, it's probably because

14:56

the discovery of Teresa Greaves' remains

14:58

also came up in cold season two.

15:01

We don't have time to repeat Teresa's

15:03

story here, but I will note her case

15:05

still remains unsolved. Greaves

15:08

had left her home in Woods Cross and told

15:10

a roommate that she was taking a bus in a Salt Lake

15:12

City for a job interview. Salt Lake

15:14

detectives had at the time declined to

15:16

work Teresa's case, leaving it to

15:18

investigators in the much smaller suburb

15:21

of Woods Cross where Teresa had lived.

15:24

Why did the Salt Lake detectives turn their

15:26

back on Teresa in the 1980s? Perhaps

15:29

a mixture of big city copy elitism

15:31

and a desire to keep their crime stats

15:33

down.

15:34

The majority of missing persons cases

15:37

resolve quickly with the missing returning

15:39

home, but those that don't,

15:41

like Teresa Greaves' case, can

15:43

linger for decades.

15:45

Carl Marino told me Salt Lake detectives

15:48

did the same thing two years later

15:50

with Cherie Warren's case. They

15:53

pushed that investigation off onto the

15:55

Roy Police Department.

15:56

But Roy did not at the time have the resources

15:59

to conduct a rob... investigation 40 miles

16:01

away. I wonder if they spent

16:04

the time in Salt Lake together, all the evidence

16:06

down here that they could have. Carl

16:08

had started out in Roy, then gone to work

16:10

in Salt Lake City, so he had seen both sides

16:13

of the coin over the course of his career. But

16:15

that career had taken an interesting turn

16:18

in March of 2015, just

16:20

weeks after the discovery of those skeletal

16:22

remains on a hillside next to the highway.

16:26

Carl Marino returned to

16:28

the Roy City Police Department. They

16:30

had an opening for Chief of Police

16:32

and I applied and they

16:34

selected me. And so that's how Carl

16:37

became Detective John Frawley's boss,

16:39

just weeks after Frawley had reopened

16:42

the Cherie Warren cold case. I

16:44

did have one supervisor say, you know, after

16:46

the remains were identified, well, okay, well,

16:49

we're done, you know, we can kind of just move

16:52

on. But there was a separate supervisor said, you

16:54

know, you don't have to put

16:56

that back on the shelf. You can still

16:58

work it. And that's what I wanted

17:00

to do. I just felt like there was more

17:02

to do on it.

17:04

Carl told me he believes cold cases

17:06

matter. And as chief, he

17:08

vowed to put money and manpower

17:10

behind that belief.

17:12

Detective Frawley came to me

17:14

and said, are you okay if I work this chief?

17:16

I said, yeah, you know, let's get going.

17:24

Detective John Frawley had both a personal

17:26

desire and a mandate from his new boss

17:29

to dig into the Cherie Warren case.

17:31

He started by examining the facts. What

17:34

did he know for sure about Cherie's

17:36

final day? What did she plan

17:38

on doing? She planned

17:41

to meet Charles Warren at Wagstaff

17:43

Toyota and gave him a ride

17:45

back to Ogden. John knew from reading

17:47

Detective Jack Bell's notes, Chuck Warren had

17:49

talked to Jack a couple of times.

17:51

He told Detective Bell he

17:54

never made it to Wagstaff's. He

17:56

became ill. He went for a jog

17:58

at the end of the day. that jog, he was too

18:01

tired to go home, and he called his previous

18:03

wife, Als, to come pick him up. To

18:07

me, that makes no sense at all.

18:10

It seemed like a shaky alibi. In

18:12

John's mind, Cherie's ex-husband also

18:15

had motive. There's a divorce. They're in

18:17

the process of a divorce. So there's a

18:19

house, a pension, a child,

18:22

all these things are involved. John

18:24

could see a hypothetical scenario in which

18:26

Chuck Warren killed Cherie in an act of domestic

18:29

violence, seeking to put an end to

18:31

their fight over alimony and child

18:33

support.

18:34

But did Chuck have opportunity?

18:37

The last person to see Cherie Warren

18:39

was a co-worker. His name was Richard

18:42

Moss. We met Richard in episode

18:44

two.

18:44

He was the credit union manager

18:46

Cherie had been training the day she disappeared. I

18:50

never saw what car she got

18:52

into or her

18:55

own car or another car.

18:59

I never saw her again.

19:00

John called Richard in June of 2015.

19:03

And he wanted to know or refresh

19:06

or see what I could remember. It

19:09

marked Richard's third round of questioning

19:11

over a span of nearly 30 years. First

19:13

by Jack Bell, then by Shane Miner,

19:16

and now by John Frawley. Many

19:18

conversations over the telephone.

19:21

Richard lived in Richfield, a rural

19:23

community about 200 miles from Roy.

19:26

He told me I was the first person in nearly 40

19:28

years to come interview him face to face

19:31

about Cherie Warren. Interestingly

19:33

enough, I did speak to Richard Moss. He

19:35

never did see Cherie get in her car.

19:38

Richard's story remained consistent from the

19:41

start through his telephone conversation

19:43

with Detective John Frawley and my

19:45

eventual meeting with him in 2021. He

19:48

was under the understanding that Cherie

19:51

was going

19:51

to leave work and pick up her ex-husband

19:53

and give him a ride back home to Ogden. Chuck

19:56

Warren had said he had called off that meeting, but

19:58

that's not what Cherie had told

19:59

Richard as they had parted ways

20:02

that evening in the garage behind the credit

20:04

union office. I need to get past

20:07

this plan that she had to meet him.

20:10

John came across a report in the box of

20:12

Roy police records. It talked about

20:14

a tip that had come in about four months after

20:16

Cherie disappeared. A credit

20:19

union employee had told police Chuck

20:21

Warren had made a cash advance on his credit

20:23

card in person in

20:25

Salt Lake City on the day of Cherie's

20:28

disappearance. If that

20:30

was true, it would mean Chuck had lied

20:32

about where he was that day. Charles

20:34

Warren was asked by Detective

20:37

Bill if he would submit to a polygraph

20:39

regarding his alibi. And

20:41

as we know, Chuck Warren had refused that

20:43

lie detector test. The

20:45

tipster had told police she'd also heard

20:48

Chuck had made credit card transactions in

20:50

Nevada days before Cherie's

20:52

car surfaced in Las Vegas. I

20:55

mentioned this tip in passing way

20:57

back in episode two. But here,

21:00

in 2015, Detective

21:02

John Frawley couldn't find any indication

21:05

his predecessor, Jack Bell, had

21:07

ever verified it. So that

21:09

needs to be looked into. John wrote

21:12

a search warrant targeting Chuck Warren's financial

21:14

records.

21:15

He wanted account statements, copies

21:18

of checks, or any details of transactions

21:21

posted to Chuck's account during September,

21:23

October, or November of 1985.

21:27

A judge signed off on the warrant, and John

21:29

sent it to the credit union. And a

21:31

lot of that information was gone because

21:33

of the time frame. The credit union

21:36

no longer had Chuck Warren's checks, but

21:38

it did have his credit card statements.

21:41

I haven't seen them, so I can't tell

21:43

you everything they revealed. But

21:45

I do know the statements showed

21:47

Chuck had made a purchase in Elko, Nevada

21:49

on November 4, 1985, followed

21:52

by another at the Circus Circus Hotel

21:55

and Casino in Reno, Nevada on

21:57

November 8, 1985.

21:59

That's a little over a month after Cherie

22:02

disappeared, and a matter of days

22:04

before staff at the Aladdin Hotel and Casino

22:06

in Las Vegas found her car abandoned

22:09

in their back lot. I felt that it

22:11

was a significant

22:13

development.

22:14

Because John suspected Chuck might

22:16

have made those transactions while riding

22:18

the train back to Ogden after

22:21

dumping Cherie's car in Las Vegas.

22:23

But there were some problems with

22:25

this idea. Las Vegas

22:27

sits at the far southern tip of Nevada. Elko

22:30

and Reno are in the north. They're

22:32

both nearly as far from Las Vegas as

22:34

Ogden, Utah, is. And there are

22:37

no railroads directly connecting Elko

22:39

or Reno to Las Vegas. And

22:42

consider the timing. John

22:44

had read the Las Vegas police reports about

22:46

the car's discovery. They say it looks

22:48

like it's been there for some time based

22:51

on dirt, debris. Chuck's

22:53

transactions occurred on November 4th and

22:56

8th.

22:57

Cherie's car turned up on the 11th. So

22:59

that's a week at most. Not

23:02

long enough for the car to have gathered a thick

23:04

coat of dust. So

23:06

Chuck Warren's credit card transactions in

23:08

Nevada probably didn't have

23:11

anything to do with dumping Cherie's

23:13

car in Las Vegas. But

23:15

John still found them suspicious. So

23:18

did I, frankly, when I first found

23:20

out about them. I wondered if Chuck

23:22

had gone on gambling jaunts just

23:24

weeks after his wife disappeared. If

23:27

so,

23:27

I didn't expect to get

23:29

a straight answer about it. In fact,

23:32

I thought I'd never hear Chuck Warren's

23:34

side of the story. But

23:36

it turns out I was

23:38

wrong.

23:39

I'm sorry.

23:53

Roy City Police Detective John Frawley

23:56

drove into Ogden on June 23rd, 2015.

25:56

Is

26:01

there somewhere we can talk for a couple of minutes?

26:03

Sure. This is the first time

26:05

you're hearing Chuck Warren's actual voice

26:08

in this podcast.

26:09

None of his prior interactions

26:11

with police in this case were recorded.

26:14

I'm here to talk to you. I was

26:16

assigned a case a few months ago, Shuri Warren.

26:20

What had happened is some

26:22

remains were found in Davis County. I

26:24

don't know if you saw that on the news or not.

26:27

I do. Okay. So,

26:29

sometimes something like that happens. A lot of old

26:31

cases are kind of reopened. And

26:34

so the case was assigned to me. I

26:37

read through it and was wanting to know if I can

26:39

just talk to you and help me

26:41

answer some questions and clear some things out. I

26:44

know you talked to Detective

26:46

Bell when I was about 30, not quite 30 years ago.

26:51

John said I know that you had talked to Detective Bell

26:53

not quite 30 years ago.

26:55

Chuck replied, damn near. Yeah.

26:59

Yeah, go ahead, John. His

27:02

notes would probably be the best solvers. Chuck

27:07

said Detective Jack Bell's notes from 30 years

27:09

earlier would be the best source for

27:12

his story.

27:13

Chuck said he had recently suffered a stroke. It

27:15

had impacted his memory. Sometimes

27:18

I can remember things. Yeah.

27:22

But what I said at that time, you

27:25

know, he'd have it all down, I

27:27

would think. Yeah. Because

27:29

he wasn't taking his notes.

27:31

I used to have a photographic

27:33

memory. I had a phone number. Right.

27:37

You know. Right. I could

27:39

remember forever. Yeah. Or even

27:42

numbers on cars. Well,

27:44

I'm sorry to hear that. But

27:46

I was wondering if, you know, actually reading

27:49

through that report, I have

27:51

more questions actually. So

27:54

that's why I said, well, I'll

27:56

try to talk to him. Well,

27:59

ask me an old story.

27:59

Yeah, well, I'd like to, if

28:02

we could, maybe just go back to stuff

28:04

from the day that Cherie disappeared. They

28:07

went through the child custody arrangement Chuck

28:10

and Cherie had worked out during the summer of 1985, after

28:14

they had separated.

28:15

Chuck said he had worked graveyards

28:17

at the railroad, and Cherie had worked days

28:19

at the credit union. They would meet

28:21

each morning to trade custody of their son. She

28:24

would drop him off at Denny's. We'd

28:27

have a coffee together and she'd go to work. Okay.

28:30

And then the same in the afternoon.

28:33

Chuck told John he'd worked midnight to eight,

28:36

and he had gone to meet Cherie at the Denny's shortly

28:39

after that. But Jack Bell's notes

28:41

said something different.

28:43

In his report, he says that

28:45

you and Cherie met at the Denny's

28:48

at 7am. Around

28:50

7am. 7am. Couldn't have been 7.

28:53

No, I worked till

28:55

eight. Okay. I wouldn't have left

28:57

an hour early. There

29:00

were other small inconsistencies between

29:02

Jack's notes and what Chuck Warren

29:04

told Detective John Frawley in this

29:06

interview.

29:07

Jack's notes described Chuck

29:10

taking his and Cherie's son to breakfast

29:12

before dropping the boy off with

29:14

Chuck's parents for the day.

29:16

But Chuck told John he didn't remember doing

29:18

that. He thought he had given the boy to Alice,

29:21

his first wife.

29:22

And it actually says

29:24

that you and Alice go to lunch.

29:27

Uh, that day? Yeah.

29:30

I ain't talking about that.

29:33

Okay. But

29:35

should have, but I don't know. John asked

29:37

what Chuck had planned to do later that day,

29:40

on the afternoon of Cherie's disappearance.

29:43

You had asked her to pick you up

29:45

at Wagstaff, Toyotas, or

29:48

something like that? Yeah. Okay.

29:50

Can you tell me more about that?

29:54

Well, I never made it down there.

29:56

Yeah.

29:57

And I called and told her.

29:59

Okay. You know, I wasn't going to make it.

30:03

Yeah. And, uh,

30:08

but I just never made it down there. You never made

30:10

it down there. Yeah.

30:12

Can you tell me, Charles, what changed

30:14

your plans? Why didn't you go to Wagstaff? Do you

30:16

remember that?

30:17

Uh, I was looking at cars, I think,

30:20

and, uh,

30:21

or something was wrong with my car. I can't

30:24

remember. Um, um,

30:27

I can't

30:30

remember. I don't know. I

30:34

can't remember. I don't know. Not

30:37

a very satisfying answer.

30:40

Chuck said he had called Cherie at the credit union

30:42

sometime around 4, which was consistent

30:45

with what he had told Detective Jack Bell

30:47

back in 1985.

30:48

Chuck told Detective John Frawley

30:51

he couldn't remember what he had done after

30:53

making the call to Cherie.

30:55

John said, according to Jack

30:57

Bell's notes, Chuck had gone for a jog.

30:59

Chuck said that was right. He had jogged

31:01

from his house into downtown Ogden, but

31:04

the sun had gone down so he had stopped.

31:07

Yeah, yeah, I was just going to say, he was running

31:09

the door. No,

31:11

it seemed like he got dark and that's when

31:13

I went to Denny's. A different

31:15

Denny's. Not the Denny's where he'd

31:17

picked up his son from Cherie earlier that

31:20

morning. Chuck said he'd ordered a cup

31:22

of coffee and called his first wife, Alice,

31:24

asking her to come pick him up.

31:26

Oh, okay. That makes, that makes, so you

31:29

go for a jog and then you're there at the Denny's having

31:31

some coffee and she picked you up. Yeah,

31:33

she had a lot of Denny's coffee. Do

31:35

you still drink it? Yeah. Yeah.

31:39

Chuck Warren's story left him with a roughly two hour

31:41

window on the afternoon of Cherie's disappearance

31:43

for which he had no real alibi.

31:46

He had told Jack Bell in 1985

31:49

he spent those two hours jogging,

31:52

just jogging.

31:54

And you actually gave your whole jogging

31:57

route to him.

31:58

That route took Chuck for a while.

31:59

miles from his house into the heart of

32:02

downtown Ogden, then another

32:04

mile and a half back to that Denny's

32:06

restaurant.

32:07

Chuck hadn't provided any

32:09

specific destination for his Jog

32:12

back in 1985, and he didn't volunteer one now

32:14

either. Well,

32:16

I appreciate you talking with me.

32:19

Like I said, this case,

32:21

it's open. It's an open case, but reading

32:24

through there, questions come up, you know.

32:27

I can't help you. Oh, you did,

32:30

actually. You helped me quite a bit.

32:32

Detective John Frawley asked Chuck what

32:34

he had done that night, after his jog.

32:36

Chuck said he'd spent the evening at home

32:38

with his first wife, Alice. Went

32:41

to bed early. I went to

32:43

bed early.

32:44

But wait, didn't Chuck

32:46

work graveyards?

32:48

John asked about this inconsistency,

32:51

and Chuck became confused. He

32:53

said he couldn't remember whether he had gone to work that

32:56

night or if he had stayed home with Alice.

32:58

I can't tell you. A long time ago.

33:01

But Chuck remembered wondering where Cherie was,

33:04

why she hadn't come to pick up her son. He

33:06

said he had called Cherie's mom, Mary

33:09

Sorensen.

33:10

It was before 10 o'clock and after 9.30,

33:13

that's all. Okay, between 9.30 and 10

33:16

p.m. Somewhere in there.

33:18

You called Mary and where was

33:20

she at? Yeah. Okay.

33:24

This was different from what Chuck had told Detective

33:26

Shane Miner in 1999. Back

33:29

then, Chuck said Mary had called him looking for

33:31

Cherie, not the other way around.

33:33

And there's no record in the case files Mary

33:36

ever mentioned talking to Chuck on the phone

33:38

that night.

33:40

John moved on to the day after

33:42

Cherie disappeared. He said according to Jack

33:44

Bell's notes, Chuck had gone to work that

33:47

day on the day shift.

33:48

And you worked for the railroad. What did you do for

33:51

the railroad? I was a clerk at

33:53

that time.

33:54

But this wasn't like you getting on a train

33:56

and traveling around. This was you working

33:58

in an office.

33:59

What do you have? Oh, come. Jack

34:02

Bell had tried to call Chuck at the rail yard

34:04

that day.

34:05

Chuck hadn't been there.

34:07

A coworker had reportedly told

34:09

Jack Chuck had come in that morning but

34:12

left sick a bit before noon.

34:14

Detective John Frawley asked Chuck

34:16

if he had, in fact, left work

34:18

sick that day.

34:20

The only time I took off work is

34:22

when I was going partying. If

34:24

I was sick, I went to work. So

34:27

I used my sick leave to go partying. Okay.

34:30

Chuck didn't explain what he meant by partying.

34:33

John pressed. Why

34:36

hadn't Chuck gone to police detective Jack

34:38

Bell about his missing wife? I

34:40

guess he had been trying to call you. Did he

34:42

leave messages for you to call

34:44

him? I wouldn't have left work

34:46

in the middle of the shift. Okay. But

34:49

according to Jack's notes, Chuck had described

34:51

leaving work and going into downtown Ogden

34:54

the day after Cherie disappeared, to

34:56

more or less the same place he had gone while

34:58

out jogging the afternoon prior.

35:01

That seems a bit strange to me.

35:03

I know from talking to police who worked Ogden

35:05

in the 80s, the area where Chuck said

35:07

he had jogged to the evening of Cherie's disappearance,

35:11

then returned to the following day, happened

35:13

to be a hotspot for prostitution. I

35:17

bring that up because while researching

35:19

Chuck Warren, I learned Salt Lake

35:21

Police cited him for sexual solicitation

35:24

in April of 1993. That's

35:26

a fancy way of saying he got a ticket after

35:28

being caught in a prostitution bust. The

35:31

court record doesn't provide much detail

35:33

beyond saying Chuck pleaded guilty and paid

35:35

a $200 fine. All

35:37

in all, pretty petty crime, but

35:40

embarrassing. The kind of thing a guy might

35:42

want to keep hidden from a nosy detective.

35:45

Now think back to that tip I mentioned several

35:47

minutes ago.

35:48

A credit union worker had told police

35:51

she had heard Chuck took a cash advance

35:53

on the day Cherie disappeared. Why

35:56

would Chuck have needed cash? This

35:59

all leads me to wonder if that's true.

35:59

Chuck might have met someone while

36:02

out for that jog. Detective

36:05

John Frawley needed to pin down as much

36:07

of Chuck's timeline as possible, but

36:09

Chuck said he couldn't remember anything specific

36:12

about that day after Cherie disappeared.

36:15

His wife Willow interrupted to ask if any

36:17

of his old co-workers might remember. He's

36:20

one of the railroaders that worked with you at that

36:22

time that would remember when they're

36:24

all dead, honey. No

36:27

one could say for sure where Chuck Warren

36:29

was

36:29

or what he had done the day

36:32

after his wife disappeared. You

36:34

keep any uncalled records

36:36

from that time? Do you have any records like that? I

36:39

know. She said

36:41

you kept everything, so... Oh,

36:44

no, just false. I know it was. Check

36:46

books.

36:47

I

36:49

wasn't in the room, but I can just imagine

36:51

Detective John Frawley's face when Chuck

36:53

Warren's wife, Willow, said she

36:56

had Chuck's old checkbooks.

36:58

Those were just the kinds of records

37:00

John wanted. How far back do your

37:02

checkbooks go in the closet? Uh,

37:05

I don't know. I think this is the 80s. This

37:09

is the time period, honey. Well...

37:11

You thought we'd go book for a minute? No, no. You

37:13

think there's anything? Checkbooks

37:15

weren't all Chuck had in his closet. He

37:18

said he still had his very first cell

37:20

phone. It's

37:21

the very first one, and you still have it? Yeah.

37:25

He keeps everything. I saved all of

37:27

them except the ones that got

37:29

stolen.

37:30

He keeps everything, Willow

37:32

said. But Chuck couldn't

37:35

remember if he had had that cell phone in 1985. Yeah,

37:39

and you had a lot of the first phones that came out,

37:41

so you might have, but I don't know. So

37:44

you did have a cell phone a long time ago? I

37:47

did a long time ago, but I don't know where I had

37:49

it at that time. John didn't let this

37:51

go.

37:52

Did you have a cell phone in 1985? No,

37:54

for sure. Possibly. I

37:57

don't know. I can't remember what year I actually

37:59

got it.

37:59

would have been one of the

38:02

first ones coming out of it. Yeah.

38:05

I mean, I remember those big ones. The

38:08

Motorola Dynatac was the first

38:10

commercially available cell phone. Today,

38:12

most people just know it as the brick.

38:16

It hit the market in 1983, two

38:18

years before Shuri disappeared. Chuck

38:21

said he had for sure had a cell phone in 88,

38:24

but he wasn't sure about 85. John

38:27

Frawley wondered what evidence a digital forensics

38:30

lab might be able to scrape from a device

38:32

that primitive, if Chuck Warren

38:35

had owned one when Shuri disappeared. I

38:37

can tell you from my work on the Susan Powell case

38:39

in Cold Season 1, cell phone

38:41

forensics are a critical tool in many

38:44

modern investigations. But

38:46

cell phones of the 1980s are dinosaurs

38:48

compared to the smartphones of today. The

38:51

Motorola Dynatac didn't have a camera,

38:53

GPS, or SIM card, let

38:55

alone apps or a web browser.

38:58

Still, you never know what you might find

39:00

unless you look. Is this the one I still

39:02

have down the hall? Might be, yeah. John

39:05

didn't tell Chuck he had already obtained his old

39:07

bank statements with a search warrant, but he

39:09

tipped his hand just a bit to

39:12

ask about something specific.

39:13

You had a financial transaction

39:16

in

39:16

Elko, Nevada,

39:18

in the beginning of November.

39:22

Financial transaction at the whole time.

39:24

Elko, Nevada, yeah.

39:25

Chuck said he had started commuting between Ogden

39:28

and Roseville, California, just outside

39:30

of Sacramento, at some point after

39:32

Shuri disappeared.

39:34

He had driven I-80 across Nevada

39:36

every two weeks. Elko sat

39:38

on that interstate.

39:39

Whatever that was in Elko, I

39:42

probably would have stopped there for gas. That was the halfway

39:45

point. You know? If

39:47

you looked every two weeks, you'd probably see

39:49

a receipt there.

39:51

But he couldn't stay for sure. When

39:53

I heard you worked for the railroad, I thought you were actually

39:56

traveling from state to state

39:58

on the railroad,

39:59

How will you go? Okay.

40:02

This seemed to further discredit

40:04

the theory Chuck might have used his railroad

40:06

access to hitch an untraceable ride home

40:08

from Las Vegas after dumping Cherie's

40:11

car there.

40:12

But Chuck hadn't managed to allay many

40:14

of Detective John Frawley's other suspicions,

40:17

and he certainly hadn't cleared himself as

40:19

a suspect.

40:20

To the contrary, his actions

40:22

on the day of Cherie's disappearance and

40:25

the day after remained

40:27

questionable. Hey Chuck, it's okay

40:29

if I come out and talk to you or call you

40:31

again if I have any questions. Is that

40:33

all right?

40:34

I do appreciate your time and

40:37

talking with me. Chuck apologized

40:39

for his faulty memory and again said

40:41

he believed Jack Bell's notes were

40:43

the best source for his story.

40:46

John tossed another question at Chuck, almost

40:49

as an aside. How do you know Kerry

40:51

Hartman? I don't. Oh, okay.

40:54

I've never seen him before. Okay. Chuck

40:56

said Detective Jack Bell had dropped by to

40:59

talk to him once, after Kerry's arrest

41:01

in the rape case. Jack had

41:03

reportedly told Chuck how Kerry had come

41:05

in a week or so after Cherie disappeared.

41:08

At that time, Kerry had described a coworker

41:10

of his having a psychic dream. You

41:13

had a dream that she's up in the mountain? Yeah.

41:16

Yeah, they'd find her up there. If

41:20

he didn't put it in there then, I don't

41:23

think I dreamed that up. I

41:27

remember him telling me that though, because

41:30

I remember that something about Kerry, him

41:33

or his buddy had a vision of something.

41:40

Enough.

41:42

Chuck was just regurgitating the same

41:45

stories we've heard before. Kerry's

41:47

coworker had a dream about Cherie's death.

41:50

An anonymous psychic sent KSL

41:52

a letter about it. Only now,

41:54

it had gone a few steps through the rumor mill

41:56

and was being fed back into the investigation.

41:59

This is how misinformation

42:02

poisons investigations. Detective

42:05

John Frawley wasn't going for it.

42:07

Could be great information. It could be very

42:09

interesting. But does it get us

42:12

to our goal? John

42:14

did not intend to entertain psychics

42:16

and seances. We're going to stick to

42:19

the evidence and what we

42:21

can absolutely say we know and

42:24

filter everything else out.

42:26

Jack Bell, the original investigator

42:28

on the Sherry Warren case, had tried to put

42:30

the screws to his lead suspect,

42:33

Chuck Warren, working the

42:35

human angle.

42:37

Shane Miner, the former Ogden cop

42:39

who had taken up the Sherry Warren cold case in 1998,

42:42

had focused on trying to find her remains on

42:44

the mountain where the second suspect,

42:47

Carrie Hartman, might have dumped her. John

42:50

Frawley brought a new approach. He

42:53

wanted to prove the case by the record.

42:56

Show who had motive, means

42:58

and opportunity. Really dissect

43:02

the involved parties' stories. And

43:05

John suspected there was more

43:07

to Chuck Warren's story than Chuck

43:09

was willing to admit.

43:26

Roy City Police Detective John Frawley

43:28

had found several inconsistencies

43:30

with Chuck Warren's story about the

43:32

disappearance of his ex-wife Sherry Warren.

43:35

John wanted Chuck's old time cards

43:38

to see if they might shed light on where Chuck

43:40

was the day Sherry turned up missing.

43:43

That was difficult. The

43:46

railroad Chuck had worked for, Southern

43:48

Pacific, had merged with Union

43:50

Pacific in the mid-90s. By 2015,

43:52

the old railroad's

43:55

daily employee records were

43:56

long gone.

43:59

were lost, like, persons

44:02

of interest, their time cards, you

44:04

know, things like, you know, were they

44:06

at work. Chuck's time cards

44:09

might have revealed whether he had gone to work at all

44:11

the morning after Cherie vanished. Without

44:14

them, John could only wonder. You're

44:16

really behind. If

44:19

Chuck had gone to work on the day shift that morning,

44:21

as he had originally told police in 1985, he

44:24

would have started around 8 a.m.

44:27

In a past episode, we did our math

44:29

homework, the story problem about how

44:31

much time it would have taken to get Cherie's car

44:33

to Las Vegas on the night of her disappearance, then

44:36

return home to Utah. Making

44:38

it to Ogden by 8 a.m. would have been

44:40

nearly impossible.

44:42

But we can't say for sure if

44:44

Chuck did or didn't go to work that day without

44:46

his time card. Her car is found

44:49

at the Aladdin Hotel and Casino

44:52

on November 11th, and it's processed

44:56

by Las Vegas police. Processed

44:59

means scouring the car for evidence.

45:01

Today, forensic technicians would vacuum the

45:03

car for hair or fibers, use

45:06

chemical reagents to look for blood, check

45:08

for fingerprints, or maybe even use a cadaver

45:11

dog to sniff for a whiff of human decomposition.

45:14

Collecting DNA evidence

45:16

wasn't yet standard practice in 1985. The Las Vegas police

45:21

records I've obtained only mention searching

45:23

for fingerprints. There is a

45:25

print

45:27

on the window, and

45:29

they collect that print. The Las

45:31

Vegas police records say it appeared the print

45:33

came from a woman, but they had never linked

45:36

them to anyone specific. In

45:38

fact, Detective Jack Bell had never

45:40

seen those prints. Because like

45:43

I said, my bosses didn't want me

45:45

to go down there.

45:46

Jack had tried to find a copy of Cherie's fingerprints

45:48

to compare against way back then, but

45:51

had come up empty.

45:53

I got a lot of faith in

45:56

Las Vegas's PD. It's

45:59

best. Faffling to me, police didn't

46:01

show more interest in Cherie's car at

46:03

the time. There's paperwork

46:05

in one of the reports of what they found.

46:08

In an alternate universe, Jack would have

46:11

written a search warrant for the car, then

46:13

had a wrecker haul it back from Las Vegas.

46:15

Cherie's car would have ended up in evidence, and

46:18

crime scene technicians here would have

46:20

torn it apart.

46:22

Who knows what they might have found.

46:24

Maybe they would have kept the car

46:26

all these years, giving John

46:29

Frawley an opportunity to examine

46:31

it again today with better techniques

46:33

and technology.

46:35

Instead, the car just sat

46:37

in a Las Vegas impound lot. And

46:40

then the car is later given back to

46:42

Charles Warren.

46:43

Records show Chuck picked the car up

46:46

on Christmas Eve of 1985. Six

46:48

months later, he had traded it into a

46:50

dealer.

46:51

John wanted to know where Cherie's car had gone

46:54

from there.

46:55

He ran the car's VIN number and was able

46:57

to follow it for a few years before

46:59

losing the trail. We try to track

47:01

it down and it's

47:04

long gone. Whatever secrets

47:06

Cherie's car might have held, they're

47:08

lost to us now. John

47:11

talked to Chuck and Cherie's son, Adam,

47:13

in October of 2015.

47:15

Adam remembered his dad visiting

47:17

casinos in Reno when he was a kid.

47:21

Adam also specifically recalled going to

47:23

Las Vegas one time with Chuck, when

47:25

he was about 7 years old. And

47:28

he told me that the

47:30

Aladdin Casino was a place

47:32

that his father frequented. The

47:35

trip Adam described would have happened in 1989,

47:38

four years after Cherie disappeared. And

47:41

Adam actually remembered his father

47:43

taking him there on a vacation

47:45

to the Aladdin. Why

47:47

would Chuck Warren have taken his and

47:50

Cherie's son to the Aladdin, of

47:52

all places? So I found that

47:54

significant.

47:56

John kept thinking about those old checkbooks,

47:58

squirreled away in...

49:56

Ogden

50:00

had at first wiped their hands of the Cherie

50:02

Warren case. It wasn't their problem.

50:05

Carl agreed with his detective,

50:07

John Frawley. They needed to chase

50:10

the evidence, and they now knew at least

50:12

some of that potential evidence was sitting

50:15

in Chuck Warren's closet.

50:17

With his chief's blessing, John wrote up

50:19

another search warrant. This time,

50:21

he asked a judge for permission to go into

50:23

Chuck's home, the same house

50:26

Cherie had once lived in and hunt for

50:28

any financial records from

50:31

1985. John also wanted Chuck's

50:33

old cell phones. Chuck's wife

50:35

Willow had told John she

50:37

and Chuck kept everything, including

50:40

his old cell phones, amid all her clutter

50:42

in the basement.

50:44

I thought that's why we had the brute phones too, but it's

50:46

not. I know I've

50:48

seen them down. They're probably in your other closet. John

50:51

served the warrant on December 14,

50:55

2015. He and others from the Roy City Police Department

50:57

scoured Chuck's house, taking

50:59

five checkbooks, a pile of floppy

51:01

disks, bank statements, mortgage

51:03

papers and more.

51:05

But they didn't find any old cell

51:07

phones. Where those had gone, I can't

51:10

say. I also

51:12

don't know what Roy Police learned from looking

51:15

through all of Chuck's old financial papers.

51:17

Chief Carl Marino told me that evidence

51:20

has to remain private. You're right.

51:22

You do have to keep certain things back. What

51:25

I can tell you is the search

51:27

warrant did not lead to an arrest.

51:30

Nothing police found provided probable cause

51:32

to book Chuck Warren into jail for his ex-wife's

51:34

presumed murder. Detective

51:37

John Frawley was learning just

51:40

how crushing the Cherie Warren

51:42

case could be. And then Detective

51:45

Frawley got transferred to undercover

51:48

narcotics. Frawley had had Cherie's

51:50

case for about a year. He had done

51:52

more than anyone else had in a decade. And

51:55

he had only just started getting

51:57

some momentum when he had had to

51:59

turn on.

51:59

away. Yeah, it is tough

52:02

because your day-to-day caseload

52:05

doesn't stop. John handed the box

52:07

of Sherry Warren case files back to Chief

52:09

Carl Marino. The box would

52:11

get passed and it just kept getting

52:13

overlooked and so the case moved on

52:16

to another detective, Ryan Reed, and

52:18

he worked at some but he

52:20

was, you know, again, he had all

52:22

of these other duties and so it didn't

52:25

get worked a lot. The

52:27

Sherry Warren case lapsed into

52:29

inactivity

52:29

once again. For Carl Marino,

52:32

it felt like going back on a promise.

52:35

It's not ideal but for a smaller department

52:38

you can't task somebody with just

52:40

working an old case like that. You just

52:42

don't have the staffing to do that.

52:49

Former Ogden City detective Shane Miner

52:51

had himself spent years driven to find

52:54

answers about what had happened to Sherry Warren.

52:56

He had picked up that torch in 1998

52:59

but his flame had sputtered in 2006 after a

53:01

series of setbacks.

53:04

Like I said a lot of this stuff I did on this case

53:07

was when I had time to work on it and

53:11

that time got more and more precious. Right.

53:15

Shane had documented all his contacts building

53:17

a list of potential witnesses. He

53:20

had kept notes, newspaper clippings, and

53:22

all sorts of other records and he had compiled

53:24

a 30 plus page summary of the case

53:27

making it ready for any future investigator who

53:29

might one day take over. That's who's

53:31

gonna pick up that case on the shelf and start

53:34

looking into it because of the time that's involved

53:37

and costs that could be involved so.

53:39

By the time the remains of Teresa Greaves emerged

53:42

on a hillside in 2015, Shane

53:45

was

53:45

deep in preparation for a capital murder

53:47

trial. There's a couple other cases I was

53:49

involved with that was very demanding. One

53:52

of them was the case we covered in cold

53:54

season 2,

53:55

the disappearance of Joyce Yost. At

53:58

the start of 2015

55:59

coming to their house one night in early

56:02

October 1985.

56:04

They heard her voice, they knew her voice. They

56:06

saw her car outside, they knew her car. Shane

56:09

told John about how Kerry had met up with

56:11

his TV reporter friend Larry Lewis a

56:13

few days later. They were actually riding

56:15

three-wheelers

56:16

up in the foothills. And Shane

56:19

said just one day after that,

56:21

the elk hunting guide Fred Johns had seen Kerry

56:24

and another man on the mountain behind

56:26

Kazi Reservoir. Fred Johns

56:28

was positive that this was Kerry Hartman.

56:30

He knew him.

56:32

Shane told John he had confirmed Kerry

56:34

knew his way around that mountain. It

56:37

was private land, but he had a key from a friend.

56:39

He had access to that area. The

56:42

same general area where an anonymous caller

56:44

had in 1987 told

56:46

police he had stumbled across a body. No

56:49

reporting of bodies that I found. He

56:51

described this decomposing

56:53

body with a purse next to

56:56

it. Human remains which had still

56:58

not been found.

56:59

Shane told John about how he had served

57:02

a pair of search warrants at Kerry's apartment after

57:04

Kerry became the key suspect in

57:06

the Ogden City Rapist investigation.

57:09

Gray leather suede

57:11

jacket was found and

57:14

placed into evidence at the Ogden

57:16

Police Department. Shane told John how

57:19

years later he had pulled that

57:21

gray suede jacket out of evidence and

57:24

showed it to Cherie's mom, Mary Sorensen.

57:27

And Mary identified that jacket

57:29

as to what she was wearing on October

57:32

2nd when she went to work. Or at

57:34

least that's what Mary thought Cherie might

57:36

have worn that day. There's some ambiguity

57:38

on this point.

57:39

And that jacket was located in

57:41

Kerry Hartman's closet. John was

57:43

coming to understand the potential significance

57:45

of the gray jacket.

57:47

If it's what Cherie left the house wearing

57:49

on the morning of her disappearance, it couldn't

57:51

have ended up in Kerry's possession unless

57:54

Kerry and Cherie had met

57:56

up at some point later that day.

57:59

minor passed the baton

58:01

of the Cherie Warren case over to John Frawley.

58:04

That meant Roy Police assumed custody of the

58:06

gray suede jacket. I

58:09

told John I wanted to see it for myself,

58:11

hoping I might be able to match it up to

58:14

an old family photograph of Cherie. I

58:16

could only do that if I knew what

58:18

it was I was looking for.

58:23

It's September of 2022 and

58:25

I'm in the basement of Roy City Police headquarters.

58:28

I follow an evidence technician named Chelsea

58:30

Scott through a locked door

58:34

into a small room. Oh,

58:37

it stinks of marijuana. Metal

58:39

shelving lines the walls.

58:41

Chelsea points to a box on the top

58:43

of the shelf in the back of the room.

58:45

It says Office Depot on the

58:48

lid. This contains the jacket.

58:50

The jacket police seized from Cherie

58:53

Hartman's apartment way back in 1987.

58:56

Chelsea points to another smaller box

58:58

on the next shelf down.

59:00

We have miscellaneous items here. We have

59:03

fingerprints from her vehicle that's located in Las

59:05

Vegas. And I can see a plastic case

59:07

containing floppy disks off to the side,

59:10

which I suspect came out of Chuck Warren's

59:12

house.

59:13

I can bring this up. Anything you want me to bring up, I'm

59:15

happy to. And you can get like different shots. Oh,

59:18

yeah. I'm carrying a still camera

59:20

and I'm accompanied by a TV videographer.

59:23

Chelsea carries the boxes out of the evidence

59:26

room and sets them on a conference table. Detective

59:29

John Frawley's there and I invade his personal

59:32

space while clipping a small microphone to his

59:34

shirt collar. John, excuse my familiarity

59:38

here. John

59:40

sits down in front of the Office Depot box,

59:43

which is sealed by red plastic tape printed

59:45

with the word evidence in black letters.

59:48

John tears open the box, then

59:50

pulls a brown paper bag out of it.

59:53

I can see numbers written in red

59:55

and black marker on the bag. I

59:58

recognize them. They are the Ogden.

59:59

police department's case numbers for one

1:00:02

of Carrie Hartman's rapes and the Sheri Warren

1:00:04

homicide. The words coat

1:00:06

and test fire bullets are written on the bag

1:00:08

as well, along with a barcode label

1:00:11

from the Utah State Crime Lab. John

1:00:13

pulls another item from the box. So this

1:00:15

was the hanger that the jacket was on. Then

1:00:19

he opens the paper bag and

1:00:21

removes the jacket. He

1:00:23

sets it on the table and I lean

1:00:26

in for a closer look. That is not

1:00:28

a men's jacket. No, it is

1:00:30

not. My first impression,

1:00:32

the jacket's smaller than I had expected.

1:00:35

It has a cropped body and pinches

1:00:37

in a bit toward the waist. There's a tag

1:00:40

on the inside that says eight. It's

1:00:42

on the smaller side of medium. Yeah,

1:00:45

this is not, in my

1:00:47

opinion, not going to fit even a

1:00:49

medium build man, let alone

1:00:52

a larger build man.

1:00:54

The jacket has a stand-up collar and

1:00:56

ruffles that run vertically over each shoulder.

1:00:59

A decidedly feminine touch,

1:01:01

there are five buttonholes down the lapel,

1:01:04

but only four buttons on the opposite side.

1:01:06

The button that should be second from the top is missing.

1:01:10

The suede leather fabric is colored a medium

1:01:13

gray. It's a neutral color that makes

1:01:15

the jacket versatile. It

1:01:17

would have coordinated well with a variety of outfits,

1:01:20

but now it's crumpled, having

1:01:22

spent decades wadded up in a bag.

1:01:24

At some point, someone has used a

1:01:26

Sharpie to make markings on the inside of the jacket,

1:01:29

toward the bottom of the front flap.

1:01:31

John tells me he thinks it's from when Ogden

1:01:34

police sent the jacket to the crime lab 22

1:01:36

years ago. And

1:01:38

it was tested for any

1:01:40

evidence of blood

1:01:42

or hair or any sort of fibers

1:01:44

that could be found. We heard about that

1:01:46

in episode six. The crime lab

1:01:49

hadn't found anything. Based on the

1:01:51

technology of that time, that's

1:01:53

correct. It didn't yield any results.

1:01:56

But I also know John recently

1:01:59

resubmitted jacket for another round

1:02:01

of testing. Yeah, I mean, it's 22 years,

1:02:03

you know. He

1:02:06

doesn't tell me what, if anything, was

1:02:08

different this time around.

1:02:11

I've now gone back and looked at every

1:02:13

photo I have of Cherie. There

1:02:15

aren't many, and the gray suede jackets

1:02:18

not in any of them. But

1:02:20

it does fit her style.

1:02:22

It strikes me as perfectly plausible

1:02:24

Cherie Warren might have worn that jacket

1:02:27

to work on the morning of October 2nd, 1985.

1:02:30

But the whole hang up is that

1:02:33

Mary's the only one that can say.

1:02:36

Again, Cherie's mom, Mary Sorensen,

1:02:38

told police she thought it was the jacket

1:02:40

her daughter left the house wearing on the day

1:02:43

of her disappearance. If that's

1:02:45

true, the jacket is evidence

1:02:47

that potentially puts Cherie and

1:02:49

Kerry Hartman together after

1:02:51

Cherie was last seen.

1:02:54

Mary Sorensen has since died.

1:02:56

Police asked Cherie's dad,

1:02:58

Ed, and sister Marcy about the jacket.

1:03:02

Nobody can say whether she's wearing that

1:03:04

or not. So the only person that

1:03:06

could is now deceased.

1:03:08

Maybe not the only person. There's

1:03:11

one other who might know if Cherie

1:03:14

was wearing it on that day. His

1:03:16

name is Kerry Hartman. Detective

1:03:20

John Frawley needed to pose this

1:03:22

question to Kerry. But

1:03:25

Kerry hadn't said a word to police about Cherie

1:03:27

Warren since 2005. And

1:03:30

Kerry had no incentive

1:03:32

to talk to John Frawley now. John

1:03:35

had found himself mired in the middle

1:03:37

of the Cherie Warren mystery, like

1:03:40

all of us are now.

1:03:41

He had walked past Cherie's picture

1:03:43

in the police department lobby hundreds of

1:03:45

times without giving it a thought. That

1:03:48

had changed once he had looked inside

1:03:51

the box. It's not just a picture

1:03:53

in the lobby. It makes it very real.

1:04:04

Carrie Hartman had gone to prison at the end of 1987

1:04:06

on a sentence of 15 years to life.

1:04:10

The prosecutor who had put him there had

1:04:12

expected Carrie would only serve the minimum 15

1:04:14

years. But as

1:04:16

we've heard this season, Carrie's

1:04:18

own unwillingness to take responsibility

1:04:21

for what he had done resulted in a much

1:04:23

longer stay. How long have you done

1:04:25

in prison? 32 years, sir. And

1:04:28

how old are you? I'm 72. Yeah.

1:04:33

You know,

1:04:36

you've thrown away a big chunk of your life. I

1:04:38

mean, it just, it is sad.

1:04:41

This comes from a recording of Carrie Hartman's

1:04:43

hearing before the Utah Board of Pardons and

1:04:45

Parole on October 29, 2019.

1:04:49

If I had to describe Carrie's first

1:04:52

trip before the board in 1992, I would say, Carrie Carrie quite

1:04:56

contrary.

1:04:58

You heard it yourself back in episode

1:05:00

six. Carrie Hartman didn't do

1:05:02

it. There is no way on this

1:05:04

earth. But 27 years

1:05:07

and a few more rejections from the board had

1:05:09

taught Carrie how to speak to those

1:05:11

who held his freedom in their hands, like

1:05:14

Parole Board member Bradley Rich. Why

1:05:16

do you think you were in here as long as you have been? My

1:05:20

choices.

1:05:22

Carrie had learned to swap

1:05:24

contrary for contrite. It

1:05:26

was a blessing to come to prison, sir. I

1:05:29

deserved what I got.

1:05:31

Bradley, the Parole Board member, asked

1:05:33

Carrie what had been happening in his life prior

1:05:35

to his arrest all those years ago.

1:05:37

What had led him to break into

1:05:40

women's homes, to threaten to kill

1:05:42

their children, and to sexually

1:05:44

assault them? I operated

1:05:46

on thinking distortions

1:05:50

that were troublesome.

1:05:52

Troublesome thinking distortions.

1:05:55

How wonderfully vague. When

1:05:57

I can't sort out these

1:05:59

distorted thinking errors, which I have learned

1:06:02

to do at this point. I've worked really

1:06:04

hard throughout these many

1:06:06

years to correct those distorted

1:06:09

thinking errors. I met my needs in

1:06:11

unhealthy ways.

1:06:12

Like he said by impulse spending.

1:06:15

Bradley said that answer didn't quite

1:06:18

hit the mark. You had

1:06:20

to my way of thinking a very peculiar

1:06:22

and dangerous response to stress.

1:06:25

I mean others might go out and get drunk

1:06:27

or revert to the use of drugs

1:06:30

or you know binge spend or

1:06:32

whatever it is you know. Go

1:06:35

through a gallon of ice cream. You

1:06:38

chose to

1:06:40

violently rape under

1:06:42

stress. And so I'm trying

1:06:44

to I'm trying to make heads or tails of that.

1:06:48

Those were those were parts

1:06:50

of my life that were surrounded

1:06:53

by pornography in those days. I

1:06:56

described that as my drug of choice. When

1:06:59

I when I felt lowly and had

1:07:01

no self-esteem when my life was falling apart,

1:07:04

I turned to pornography and masturbation.

1:07:07

That led to cruising

1:07:09

for women and choosing

1:07:12

women to make victims.

1:07:14

Low self-esteem led to pornography,

1:07:17

which then led to rape. I

1:07:19

wish to be defined as who

1:07:21

I am now and not who

1:07:23

I was. I'm a different man now than I was 40 years

1:07:26

ago.

1:07:27

Kerry had lived nearly half his life

1:07:29

in custody. As much sympathy

1:07:32

as I feel for your victims at the same

1:07:34

time, you've

1:07:36

made yourself a victim as well.

1:07:38

And you've paid a heavy price for it. But

1:07:41

had he paid in full, that

1:07:45

was up to the parole board to decide.

1:07:47

Bradley went over the latest memo

1:07:50

from Kerry's sex offender therapist. It

1:07:52

said if paroled, Kerry stood about a one

1:07:54

in 10 chance of committing a new sex offense,

1:07:57

a three in 10 chance of carrying

1:07:59

out a violent.

1:07:59

and a five in 10 chance

1:08:02

of committing any crime. In

1:08:04

other words, 50-50, Kerry would do something that

1:08:07

might land him back in prison. And

1:08:10

that makes you still kind

1:08:12

of a risk. But

1:08:14

on the other hand, Kerry had obtained a

1:08:17

new, more favorable treatment

1:08:19

memo just a few months earlier. He

1:08:21

handed it over to Bradley. Treatment

1:08:24

summary, Justin Clark. Right

1:08:27

there. Ah, sure enough.

1:08:29

The updated report said Kerry now presented

1:08:32

a below average risk to re-offend.

1:08:35

The parole board had repeatedly teased

1:08:37

Kerry with a promise of release, but

1:08:40

to earn it, he had had to admit to rape.

1:08:43

The board had cajoled him into taking

1:08:45

part in a police interview about Shuri Warren.

1:08:48

And the board demanded Kerry make several

1:08:50

trips through sex offender therapy. Kerry

1:08:53

had complied. And now, the

1:08:56

board seemed mollified.

1:08:58

You're gonna get an opportunity to succeed or fail,

1:09:01

my prediction, in

1:09:04

the not too

1:09:05

distant future. No more fakeouts,

1:09:08

no more demands. The parole

1:09:10

board had nothing left to ask of

1:09:12

Kerry. Then all we can

1:09:14

do is wish you the best. You

1:09:17

have done a big

1:09:19

chunk of your life, 32 years in here, and

1:09:23

you're not a young man.

1:09:25

Can you see where this is heading?

1:09:27

I wish

1:09:29

you well. And like I say,

1:09:33

with or without a further hearing, I think you're gonna get

1:09:35

an opportunity. And then we'll see if you've acquired

1:09:38

the skills you need to stay out of trouble. Thank

1:09:40

you so much. All right. Kerry

1:09:43

Hartman left prison in March

1:09:45

of 2020. His

1:09:48

release escaped public notice due

1:09:50

to the COVID-19 pandemic that was sweeping

1:09:52

the globe. Kerry

1:09:55

quietly headed back to Ogden

1:09:57

to the same community he had... terrorized

1:10:01

three decades before.

1:10:17

On the season finale of Cold. Is

1:10:20

he out? Yes. I didn't know he was

1:10:22

out. That honestly

1:10:24

makes me a little nervous. OK,

1:10:26

well, and he lives in Ogden. I

1:10:30

don't know. Hey,

1:10:33

Gary.

1:10:38

If you have information about the disappearance

1:10:41

of Cherie Warren, now is the time to share

1:10:43

it. You can reach me by emailing

1:10:45

cold at ksl.com or contact

1:10:48

the Roy City Police Department at 801-774-1063. I

1:10:54

also want you to know, if you've experienced

1:10:56

abuse or sexual violence, you're

1:10:59

not alone. There are trained experts

1:11:01

ready to listen and help.

1:11:02

In the United States, survivors

1:11:04

of rape and sexual assault can connect

1:11:07

to free resources through the Rape Abuse

1:11:09

and Incest National Network at RAINN.org.

1:11:14

If you or someone you know is experiencing domestic

1:11:16

abuse in any form, you can

1:11:19

reach the National Domestic Violence Hotline

1:11:21

at the hotline.org. Cold

1:11:24

is a production of KSL podcasts and

1:11:26

Wondery in association with Workhouse

1:11:29

Media.

1:11:32

Cold

1:11:34

is researched, written and hosted by me,

1:11:36

Dave Cauley, audio production and

1:11:39

sound design by Ben Kiebrick and Aaron Mason,

1:11:42

mixing and mastering by

1:11:43

Ben Kiebrick. Michael Bonmiller

1:11:46

composed our main theme with additional

1:11:48

music this season by Alison Layton Brown.

1:11:51

Additional voices in this episode provided by

1:11:53

Sean Detoury. My personal

1:11:56

thanks to our editorial team, Amy

1:11:58

Donaldson, Andrea Smarten.

1:11:59

Ryan Meeks, Becky Bruce, Kira

1:12:02

Faramond, Kellyanne Halverson, Josh

1:12:05

Tilton, and Felix Benel. For

1:12:07

Amazon Music and Wondery, Managing

1:12:10

Producer Candice Manriquez-Ren, Producer

1:12:12

Claire Chambers, Senior Producer Lizzie

1:12:15

Bassett, and Executive Producer Morgan

1:12:17

Jones. Special thanks to

1:12:19

Kale Bittner and Alison Vermeulen.

1:12:22

With Workhouse Media Executive Producers Paul

1:12:25

Anderson and Nick Penella. And

1:12:27

for KSL Podcasts, Executive

1:12:30

Producer Cheryl Worsley. For

1:12:32

pictures and more, go to our website, TheColdPodcast.com,

1:12:36

and follow us on social,

1:12:37

At The Cold Podcast.

1:12:40

Most of all, thank you for listening.

1:12:50

On

1:12:56

Amazon Music, download the Amazon

1:12:58

Music app today.

1:13:00

Or you can listen ad free with Wondery

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Plus in Apple Podcasts. Before

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you go, tell us about yourself by completing

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a short survey at Wondery.com slash

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survey.