0:00

This message comes from NPR sponsor Sony

0:02

Pictures Classics presenting Wicked Little Letters,

0:04

a new comedy starring Olivia Colman

0:06

and Jesse Buckley based on an

0:09

outrageously true scandal. Wicked Little Letters

0:11

starts Friday in New York and

0:13

Los Angeles everywhere April 5th, only

0:15

in theaters. Hey everyone,

0:17

you're listening to Code Switch. I'm

0:19

B.A. Parker, and today I have

0:22

our senior producer, Christina Colla. Hey

0:24

Christina. Hey Parker. Alright,

0:26

so what do you have for us today? Two

0:29

years ago, I started reading

0:32

about a complex, multi-generational fight over

0:34

language that's going on in the

0:36

Lakota nation. The average speaker

0:38

age of Lakota is over 75. There's

0:40

just not a lot of time to,

0:43

you know, fight internally when there's so

0:45

much work to do, and this language

0:48

is highly endangered. A puzzle

0:50

over ownership that can't fully be solved

0:52

by the U.S. legal system. We're

0:55

making things into property

0:57

that perhaps should never

1:00

be considered property in the first place.

1:03

And two educators who are desperately

1:05

working with their language, but

1:07

who have found themselves completely at

1:09

odds. For me, like,

1:11

the overlying mission is

1:14

to do what's best for the language, and

1:17

dividing our people is not what's best for the language.

1:21

They're still selling my grandmother's sentences, our

1:23

family's oral history, and our

1:26

oral knowledge. And

1:29

Parker, to tell that story, I

1:32

want to start with that grandmother,

1:35

whose legacy has been at the center of

1:37

this fight. Her name

1:39

is Dolores Taken Alive. When

1:42

I graduated from high school, my

1:44

grandfather, he said,

1:46

don't ever lose your Lakota

1:48

language. Dolores was born

1:51

on Standing Rock in South Dakota

1:53

in 1933, and she

1:56

was a fluent Lakota speaker. She

1:58

cared about her language a lot. just

2:00

like her grandfather taught her. Always

2:03

remember and speak your Lakota

2:05

language, because that is

2:07

your language. And

2:10

then the white man's language will be

2:12

your second language. And

2:14

then he said to me, no

2:16

matter how educated you are, in

2:19

order for you to translate our

2:21

Lakota language, which is

2:24

ours, if I speak

2:26

my truest Lakota language,

2:29

you will be able to

2:31

translate that, he said to me. Lainting

2:34

in language seems like a lot

2:36

of responsibility. He does.

2:39

Dolores learned and spoke Lakota in

2:42

everyday life while she was

2:44

searching for choke cherries with her brother,

2:46

plowing the land for her dad, horseback

2:48

riding. She was also practicing her

2:50

language. I used to say, so

2:53

my mother and mom can now go

2:55

sleep at our grandpa's tonight? Okay,

2:58

then we used to sleep on the floor. And

3:01

grandpa, he would be telling us

3:03

stories. So you know, this oral

3:06

tradition is very important. Dolores

3:10

taught at different schools in Standing Rock for

3:12

over 40 years. And

3:14

at the age of 84, she started

3:16

hosting a weekly radio show in Lakota.

3:19

Her show was called, It's Good to Speak

3:21

Lakota. I mean, that's a pretty apt title.

3:23

Yeah. She

3:26

also recorded stories with a bunch of

3:28

different organizations. She taped all 48

3:30

episodes of her radio show. She recorded

3:33

with Standing Rock. She recorded with an

3:35

education nonprofit called Well Lakota Project. That's

3:37

where this audio is from. She

3:40

shared this one story about a time she talked

3:42

to her sister in Lakota in front of

3:44

a classroom full of students. They

3:46

were so amazed at

3:49

how Lakota language could be

3:51

so, you know, cherishing and

3:54

yet so loving because you can speak

3:56

it. Not

3:59

everyone has a voice. had the same experience.

4:02

Right, I mean, boarding schools existed in her

4:04

lifetime, which we've talked about before on Code

4:06

Switch. They were basically designed

4:08

to strip indigenous kids of

4:10

their culture, and their

4:13

English-only policy is responsible for

4:15

the extinction or endangerment of

4:17

hundreds of native languages. And

4:20

the US policy protecting indigenous languages at

4:22

school wasn't passed until what? 1990,

4:26

that's the Native American Language Act. Standing

4:28

Rock wants Lakota to be the first language

4:30

citizens speak at home by 2045. But

4:34

according to one article, in 2020, they

4:37

only counted 230 native Dakota and

4:39

Lakota speakers in Standing Rock. That's

4:41

down from 350 in 2006. So

4:44

they have their work cut out for them. Right,

4:47

which is partially why, even

4:50

though Lakota is more of a

4:52

culture of oral tradition, Delores

4:54

worked hard to make the language more accessible

4:56

in a bunch of different ways. And

4:59

she was the perfect person to do that. According

5:02

to the Society for the Study of the

5:04

Indigenous Languages of the Americas, she

5:06

was considered, quote, one of the most

5:08

eloquent Lakota speakers of her time. Even

5:11

other fluent speakers, when they had

5:13

questions about the intricacies of their

5:16

language, would say, Delores will know. Words

5:19

can hardly describe the incredible contribution

5:21

made to the dictionary by Delores

5:23

Taken Live. So that's

5:26

Jan Ulrich. He's a linguist

5:28

from the Czech Republic who's been speaking Lakota

5:30

for about 40 years. He

5:32

stumbled on an old Lakota dictionary while

5:34

the Czech Republic was still under Soviet

5:36

rule. And he decided to start learning

5:39

Lakota. Matopa. Matopa.

5:43

Who? Matopa. Jan worked with

5:45

Delores and others to create a Lakota

5:47

dictionary as a founder and head linguist

5:49

for this influential nonprofit

5:52

called the Lakota Language

5:54

Consortium, or the LLC.

5:57

That tape we heard is from a Lakota

5:59

language consortium. video. Okay,

6:01

so what is the

6:03

Lakota Language Consortium? So

6:08

the LLC is made up of a

6:10

team of mostly native staff. We should

6:12

clarify it's not actually an LLC in

6:15

the corporate sense. That helps.

6:18

It's a nonprofit that's been around for

6:20

20 years and aside from

6:22

their Lakota dictionary, they publish books and

6:24

host learning weeks with Lakota elders. Their

6:27

mission is to revitalize Lakota

6:29

by creating a new generation

6:31

of Lakota speakers. The

6:35

average speaker age of Lakota is over

6:37

75. There's just not a

6:39

lot of time to, you know,

6:41

fight internally when there's so much

6:43

work to do and this language

6:45

is highly endangered. That was

6:47

Wilhelm Meijer. He founded the LLC with Yawn

6:50

in 2004 and they ran it together for

6:53

20 years. Wilhelm was born in

6:55

Austria but grew up in the States. He

6:58

studied at Oglala Lakota College on

7:00

the Pine Ridge Reservation. That's where he

7:02

first started to learn Lakota and became

7:04

deeply interested in Lakota culture. Yawn

7:07

and Wilhelm also founded and still

7:09

run a larger nonprofit. It's called

7:11

the Language Conservancy and

7:13

it works with over 50 other

7:15

native languages. On

7:17

the bottom of that website

7:19

there's a logo saying they

7:22

have special consultative status with

7:24

the United Nations Economic and

7:26

Social Council. That sounds legit.

7:28

It does. They're definitely

7:30

power players in the language

7:32

preservation revitalization space

7:35

in a way that kind of makes

7:37

me think of Ray, Raya, La Cademia,

7:39

Española. Like the LED or Webster's. Yeah

7:42

and with Lakota the LLC has said

7:44

they're not trying to be the one authority

7:47

on the language but they

7:49

are trying to quote create and

7:51

maintain Lakota resources that are reliable,

7:54

evidence-based, text corpus-based and

7:56

that can be confidently referenced by

7:58

Lakota language teachers and learners. end

8:00

quote. And the new Lakota dictionary

8:02

is one of those resources. So

8:05

are people actually using the dictionary to

8:07

try to learn Lakota? Some

8:09

are. So I talked to Alex

8:11

Fire Thunder a few times about

8:13

his relationship with his language. Alex

8:16

is an enrolled member of the

8:18

Oglala Sioux tribe. And when Alex

8:21

started seriously studying Lakota in 2013,

8:23

he used the LLC dictionary. He

8:26

remembers seeing it for the very

8:28

first time and feeling overwhelmed.

8:32

As a beginner learner, that's a lot of words I have

8:34

to learn, you know. But

8:37

in retrospect, it makes you

8:39

realize how complex and how

8:41

rich our language is. Alex

8:45

lives in Pine Ridge now, but he

8:47

grew up in New York. And while

8:49

he knew some Lakota words, he didn't

8:51

speak it at home, really. My

8:54

mom is a speaker, but she didn't

8:56

teach me or my siblings to speak

8:58

Lakota. Everybody else spoke English. No, I

9:00

just think that it was just it

9:02

wasn't practical. And it's a similar story

9:04

to my generation here on the res

9:06

as well. English just

9:08

kind of took over. I

9:11

remember like talking to my older brother when we were

9:13

teenagers, like, we should learn to

9:15

speak Lakota so that we can talk to mom in

9:17

Lakota. How cool would that be? At

9:20

age 22, he signed up for

9:22

Lakota classes. And right away,

9:24

I, everything I was learning class,

9:26

I would call my mom after and try

9:29

to practice. She would laugh at me. When

9:31

I would say things funny or say things wrong, I'd

9:34

be like, and

9:37

all like robotic and like, syllable

9:39

by syllable. And

9:42

so she'd laugh and say, What, what's wrong with that? Is

9:46

this evening, or this,

9:48

this evening, come in.

9:51

And then she said, it's a statue.

9:53

So statue is the fast way

9:55

of pronouncing that like, that yet do turns

9:57

into. After

10:00

a few years of studying, Alex became a

10:02

Lakota language teacher himself. And

10:04

then in 2017, he took a job with

10:06

the Lakota Language Consortium as the

10:09

deputy director. Now what does the deputy

10:11

director of a language nonprofit do? He

10:14

runs classes at the LLC Summer

10:16

Institute, teaches, works as

10:18

a linguist, hosts a

10:21

podcast. Of course. Yep.

10:23

He records elders in their communities and

10:26

documents previously undocumented words.

10:28

Some of which are old, some of them

10:30

are new, but words that are used by

10:32

our speakers that have never been written before.

10:35

Well, then he's working as hard as the lores. He

10:37

is. And he said in

10:39

the latest edition, the third edition

10:42

of the new Lakota dictionary, they

10:44

added roughly 10,000 more

10:46

words than the first one. And

10:48

so like one example is pajamas. Pajamas

10:52

is in

10:55

the dictionary, it's always been ish. I

10:58

think it's ish-ti-ma-pi or ish-ti-ma-ha-yapi,

11:01

which just means like sleeping clothes.

11:04

But my mom was like, I never heard that. And

11:06

she gave it to me. Unh-pa-api. Unh-pa-pi.

11:09

And so then I was like, that's not in the dictionary. And

11:12

I asked around some other elders. And

11:15

now it's in the dictionary. Unh-pa-api.

11:21

That makes me feel proud. You

11:23

know, being the first generation to not

11:25

be the speaker, it makes me

11:27

feel like I'm mending like some

11:29

kind of hoop that's been broken. Not to be

11:31

cheesy. I know that's usually, you know, a lot

11:34

of our people like to talk about the medicine

11:36

way or hoops and stuff like that. But

11:39

it is a, you know, a circle is a

11:41

sacred symbol to our people. And

11:44

it really is meaningful to

11:46

continue that cycle. Having

11:49

that cycle is especially important as

11:51

the number of native Lakota speakers

11:54

continues to shrink. I

11:59

always pray. to create a death.

12:01

Give me more life. Give

12:03

me health. Give me

12:05

good health. I'm still needed. I

12:07

can still help. I want

12:10

to live more like that because I

12:12

can help my people, my students,

12:14

my headquarters. Delores

12:17

Taken Alive died in 2020, but

12:20

so much of her work lives on

12:24

in recordings, in books, in

12:27

stories that she shared so the next

12:29

seven generations can keep learning. It

12:32

lives on in people who decided

12:35

to take up Dolores' mantle as

12:37

well. Like Alex? Well,

12:41

yes. And no?

12:43

It depends on

12:45

who you ask because Parker,

12:47

as you know,

12:51

nothing in life is ever that clean

12:53

or easy.

12:55

They're still selling my

12:57

grandmother's sentences, our

12:59

family's oral history, and our oral

13:01

knowledge. So have we been given

13:04

my grandmother's stuff back yet? That's

13:07

coming up. Stay with us. This

13:10

message is brought to you by Apple Pay.

13:12

Who wants to fuss with inserting a card

13:14

into a reader or worse into a skimmer

13:17

where your card information can be stolen? Instead,

13:19

pay the Apple way. Apple Pay is easy,

13:21

secure, and built into iPhone. All you have

13:23

to do is set it up. Just add

13:26

a card in the wallet app and you're

13:28

good to go. This message

13:30

comes from Apple Card. You earn up

13:32

to 3% daily cash on every purchase.

13:34

That's 3% on products at Apple,

13:37

2% on all other Apple

13:39

Card with Apple Pay purchases, and

13:41

1% on anything you buy with

13:44

your Titanium Apple Card or Virtual

13:46

Card number. Visit apple.co.cardcalculator to see

13:48

how much you can earn. Apple

13:51

Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank

13:53

USA Salt Lake City branch. Subject

13:56

to credit approval. Terms apply. This

13:59

message comes from... If

14:02

you had an extra hour in the day, how would

14:04

you use it? BetterHelp Online Therapy

14:06

can help you figure out what's most

14:08

important to you, so you can prioritize

14:11

it. Learn to make time

14:13

for what makes you happy. Just fill

14:15

out a brief questionnaire to get matched

14:17

with a licensed therapist and switch therapists

14:20

any time for no additional charge. Visit

14:23

betterhelp.com/NPR today to get

14:25

10% off your first

14:27

month. This message comes

14:29

from NPR sponsor Shopify. The One

14:32

Million Black Businesses Initiative is an

14:34

award-winning program created by Shopify and

14:36

Operation HOPE, a commitment to start,

14:39

grow, and scale one million

14:41

black businesses by 2030. Develop

14:44

your business with award-winning courses,

14:46

virtual workshops, and one-on-one coaching.

14:49

Chart your own path for

14:51

business success with the One

14:53

Million Black Businesses Initiative and

14:55

Shopify. Find an

14:57

exclusive 120-day free

14:59

trial at shopify.com/CodeSwitch.

15:03

Parker. Christina.

15:06

CodeSwitch. So,

15:10

Parker, before the break,

15:12

we heard about Dolores taking alive the work

15:15

to keep the Lakota language alive. And

15:18

she worked tirelessly to do that, including

15:20

with the Lakota Language Consortium, who

15:23

she believed had the same mission as her. But

15:27

not everyone shares that belief.

15:30

In fact, some people thought

15:32

that they saw something much more sinister

15:35

going on. A lot of

15:37

people in Indian Country, including me, felt,

15:39

thought that Will Halmaya and Yann Ulrich

15:41

were sent from heaven for

15:43

us. This is Nicole

15:46

E. Duchino. She's Cheyenne

15:48

River, Lakota. Since

15:50

in June 2023, in a hearing

15:52

room in peer South Dakota, she

15:55

was talking about her language. Two

15:58

preeminent linguists who were willing to speak. to

16:00

travel thousands of miles away to our

16:03

reservations here in South Dakota and donate

16:05

their time, donate their time

16:07

and expertise to helping us save

16:09

our endangered Lakota language. And

16:12

we as Indian people thought that they

16:14

viewed our language and our culture as

16:17

a shared resource that could be neither

16:19

bought nor sold. Nicole

16:21

was representing Ray Taken Alive,

16:24

Dolores Taken Alive's grandson. And

16:26

Nicole was Ray's defense through a

16:29

six-hour hearing with the South Dakota

16:31

Education Department. Ray learned

16:33

in 2021 that in fact our

16:35

ancient and sacred Lakota language that

16:37

had barely survived small

16:40

talks, barely survived war

16:42

and forced assimilation, and which Ray's

16:44

grandmother, Dolores Taken Alive, had innocently

16:46

and proudly shared with Yawn and

16:48

Will for the good of her

16:50

people, had been copyrighted

16:53

by the LLC. Ray's

16:55

grandma's image had been copyrighted by the LLC.

16:59

The way that Ray thought, our

17:01

mother tongue and wisdom that were

17:03

passed down by his ancestors now

17:05

belong to Yawn and Will's

17:07

home. And

17:11

Ray doesn't think that's right. He

17:13

thinks that's illegal. He

17:15

thinks the LLC is stealing our language and

17:17

our culture. It's

17:22

too long in language revitalization, our people

17:24

have been removed from our

17:27

language. It's constantly tried to be separated. That

17:30

last voice is Ray Taken Alive. Right.

17:32

We heard him right before the break. And

17:34

it sounded like he was not that thrilled

17:36

about what the Lakota language consortium is

17:38

doing. He is not a

17:41

fan. And you heard

17:43

a little about Y from his lawyer. Here's

17:46

how Ray explains it. So they're

17:48

always talking about the language, the language is dying,

17:50

the language, we need to stay the language, but

17:52

those kinds of conversations, we forget the people, the

17:55

people who speak the languages. So trying

17:57

to separate the language from the people.

18:00

people, you can use

18:02

that to scare people to diagnose

18:04

someone with the disease and then you can sell them

18:06

the cure. Hello. Hey,

18:09

Ray. Ray

18:13

and I talked multiple times, so some of

18:15

his tape might sound a little different. How's

18:18

it going? Good. How are you? What

18:20

are you up to today? I'm doing

18:22

good. We're going to head out in the river

18:25

today. Later

18:27

on, when it warms up. Ray

18:29

is a Standing Rock citizen. He

18:31

teaches Lakota language at the McLaughlin Public

18:33

School in McLaughlin, South Dakota. He's

18:36

also the Lakota language and culture coordinator for

18:38

his school, which means he

18:40

helps make curriculum. That was

18:43

my dream, to work in a school. And

18:45

Ray comes from a long line

18:47

of teachers. Like the

18:49

lawyers. Yeah. Which is

18:51

one reason why he's passionate about helping young

18:54

Lakota people learn to speak Lakota as part

18:56

of their everyday lives. I

18:58

believe that our culture

19:01

and our language is life-giving.

19:05

I want to give them the tools to dream and do

19:07

whatever they want to do. And

19:10

Ray has spent the past three years

19:13

fighting the Lakota language consortium. Wait,

19:15

Christina, it sounds like

19:18

Ray has the same goal as the

19:20

LLC to keep teaching the language. I

19:23

mean, he does to a

19:25

certain degree, but there are

19:27

some key differences in how Ray

19:29

and the LLC conceptualize their work.

19:32

So Ray has three main issues with the

19:34

LLC that have to do with messaging,

19:36

authority, and ownership. Oh,

19:39

okay. Yes, let's get into it. So

19:42

when it comes to messaging, Ray is

19:44

asking, is the threat of the Lakota

19:46

language dying off? Is

19:49

it being used to convince people to get

19:51

on board with the LLC's learning system? Like,

19:54

is the LLC catastrophizing? That's

19:57

what he was referring to when it comes to selling

19:59

the data. disease and the cure. Yep. And

20:02

one other key piece of that is

20:04

selling. In order to

20:06

sell something, you need people to

20:08

want to buy it, which is

20:10

why he cares about authority. Okay.

20:14

So, as I said before,

20:16

the Lakota Language Consortium materials

20:18

standardize one clear way

20:21

to speak and write Lakota. Like,

20:23

this is the vocabulary. These

20:26

are the diacritical marks. This is

20:28

how the grammar is structured. I

20:31

could see how that could feel like

20:33

the best chance to revitalize the language.

20:35

To standardize it? Yeah,

20:37

that's what supporters of the LLC would

20:40

say for sure. This

20:42

work is needed now, and the LLC

20:44

has the resources and the know-how to

20:46

do it. But when it

20:49

comes to who has authority, Ray

20:51

and others are asking, like, with

20:54

a living language that doesn't have

20:56

one clear standardized writing system already,

20:59

who gets to decide the correct way

21:01

to write and speak the language, especially

21:04

when there are so many regional

21:06

and generational differences? But even

21:09

more fundamentally, some Lakota

21:12

people feel like maybe they

21:14

don't need one standardized writing

21:16

system. A bunch

21:18

already exist. And

21:21

having a variety of systems

21:23

and materials has worked for some

21:26

people, like Ray. What

21:28

I use personally is I typed up, me

21:30

and a friend of mine, we typed up

21:33

all the texts that we could basically

21:35

find, and I keep it in this

21:37

huge PDF document. He says

21:39

a lot of people don't know

21:41

how many resources exist, from tribal

21:44

colleges, elders, tribes,

21:47

curricula, dictionaries, books. They're

21:50

all out there. One thing I like to do

21:53

is I get on the online databases

21:55

or Google Scholar or whatever, and I look

21:57

for whatever I can find. on

22:00

there and then also

22:02

I get on eBay. He

22:04

found some cassette tapes that way. I

22:07

bought them and then I put them in this

22:11

old radio that my dad gave

22:13

me and I played it and

22:16

it was the tapes to

22:19

these Black Hills State University

22:22

language curriculum. Okay,

22:26

Christina, I totally

22:28

understand what Ray is doing and

22:31

why it feels more organic to

22:33

the way the Lakota language has

22:35

actually worked throughout time. But

22:38

having one

22:41

place you go to and know that

22:43

you're learning the right things may

22:46

just be more convenient. Like

22:49

not everyone is going to have the time

22:51

and motivation to find cassette tapes on eBay

22:53

or know how to use cassette tapes. I

22:56

mean that's a good point and

22:59

actually one elder who worked with the

23:01

LLC remarked that two

23:03

generations of Lakota language students on

23:05

Standing Rock have learned

23:07

using LLC materials. At

23:10

this point maybe removing them would

23:12

be detrimental to those students learning.

23:16

For people like Alex Fire Thunder

23:18

who lives on Pine Ridge, having

23:20

one standardized system has been incredibly

23:23

helpful in learning Lakota. In

23:25

the LLC materials every word has the

23:27

stress marked where it goes. So

23:29

you know there's no guesswork

23:32

and not really developed a

23:34

confidence in my speaking. So

23:36

this stuff works for some people but

23:39

Parker people like Ray are

23:42

really worried about trading convenience

23:45

for ownership. And the

23:47

bigger question here is if

23:50

Lakota people are involved in making

23:52

LLC materials, why should this separate

23:54

company have control over those materials?

23:57

Not the elder speakers or tribes.

24:00

And if the LLC controls

24:02

those recordings, etc., does

24:05

the language still belong to the Lakota

24:07

people? And this has

24:10

become another giant part of

24:12

this discussion. A language cannot

24:14

be copyrighted in general. It's not

24:16

a thing that is like that.

24:19

That's Wilhelm Meijer again. Remember,

24:22

he's one of the original founders

24:24

of the LLC, and technically, you

24:26

cannot copyright a language.

24:30

But there are ways

24:32

even that basic fact gets

24:35

complicated. Because

24:39

you can copyright materials

24:42

in that language. And

24:44

maybe if you copyright enough materials

24:47

of something like Lakota that doesn't

24:49

have a standardized version, you

24:52

can end up owning a

24:54

language essentially in that

24:57

you can control how it's taught

24:59

or learned, who has access to

25:01

materials. There's a broader

25:03

discussion about this all over the world.

25:05

But I want to share one example.

25:08

So something like this happened with the

25:10

Penobscot Nation in Maine, where one linguist

25:12

basically ended up copywriting so much of

25:15

their language materials that it was pretty

25:17

much like he owned it. And that

25:19

ownership didn't go back to the tribe

25:21

once that linguist died. The way copyright

25:23

law works, it will eventually go into

25:25

the public domain. And that's not

25:28

what a lot of tribes want either. So

25:31

going back to the LLC, they

25:33

control more than just the written

25:35

works that they've copyrighted. When they

25:37

record Lakota Seekers, they have Seekers

25:39

signed release forms. That's

25:41

how it usually goes, right? It is. But

25:44

for a while, the LLC was

25:47

on the far end of the

25:49

spectrum. Because until Alex Firethunder joined

25:51

the organization, the LLC was

25:53

the sole owner of the materials they

25:55

gathered. Now, Seekers have more

25:57

choice when it comes to who ultimately

26:00

owns the recording, but before, through

26:02

those previous forms, the LLC was

26:05

asserting ownership over an initial recording,

26:07

as well as whatever was shared

26:09

and whatever was developed from that

26:12

original source material, including things like

26:14

stories that Ray's grandmother told or

26:16

pictures the LLC shot of Dolores.

26:20

I was completely shocked. I

26:22

was really hurt by that. How

26:28

can an outside N.A.V.

26:30

keep my grandmother from me?

26:34

Ray as the appointed spokesman for his

26:36

family on the issue has been trying

26:38

to get his grandmother's materials from the

26:41

LLC. What

26:43

I want is all of the intellectual

26:45

property rights given back to our

26:47

family. All

26:50

the audio, the recordings, the pictures,

26:53

the licensing, everything, the

26:56

full assignment of rights being given back to

26:58

our family. The

27:01

LLC says they did share

27:03

Dolores's recordings with Ray's family.

27:06

According to a post on their website, they returned

27:08

recordings to Ray's family in September of 2020 and

27:12

again in September of 2021. But

27:15

the more fundamental point of tension

27:17

seems to be that Ray's

27:20

version of getting those materials

27:22

back and the LLC's version

27:25

differ. Ray says

27:27

the LLC gave him copies. He

27:29

wants the originals. Ray

27:32

says he wants Dolores's voice and her

27:34

image to be protected under federal and

27:36

tribal law so no one can exploit

27:38

or make money off of them, because

27:41

without the originals, it's still someone

27:43

else's call about what can be

27:46

done with the materials, who

27:48

can use them, how they can be referenced.

28:00

use the material because the dictionary... During

28:02

the hearing, Yann said the LLC is

28:04

a publishing house, and they've published their

28:06

dictionary, their grammar book, their textbooks. They

28:09

do offer some materials for free,

28:11

like their dictionary app, but withdrawing

28:15

copyrights would mean

28:17

stopping the presses. Materials are

28:19

just going to benefit from that. There are schools going

28:21

to benefit from the fact that we have to

28:23

stop printing the dictionary that the lawyers they can

28:26

like wanted to be printed for austerity. We

28:28

sell it because it costs money to print, and

28:31

people, you know, people buy them

28:33

for our schools, they have to buy textbooks

28:35

and things. But really,

28:37

I can't put a price tag on it for

28:40

you. It's invaluable to me. These

28:43

language materials are invaluable to

28:45

Alex, but Dolores'

28:47

recordings are invaluable to Ray

28:49

too. You know, my grandma would

28:51

say things, and she would give me a word and

28:54

she'd pay a $1,000,000, and that one's not in the

28:56

dictionary. And

28:58

I wish I could hold on to those. I wish I would have

29:00

really sunk my teeth into those and

29:02

held on to those. So

29:05

what's he doing to get his grandma back?

29:09

So for the past three years,

29:12

Ray has been pushing some

29:14

boundaries. He asked

29:16

the LLC in private messages and

29:18

emails, as well as through social media

29:20

to stop using Dolores' materials. He

29:23

shared videos calling out the LLC

29:25

and publicizing what's happening. And

29:28

in October 2021, Ray confronted

29:31

the LLC at an Indigenous

29:33

education conference. That's my grandma. You

29:36

don't have permission to do this. Ray grabs

29:38

Dax's pamphlets with Dolores' image on

29:40

them from an LLC table. This

29:43

was all recorded. He

29:45

posted that video online, which wound

29:47

up ruffling some feathers. All

29:50

of this escalated to a cease and desist

29:52

letter from the LLC, and later a 23-page

29:54

complaint against

29:58

Ray with the South Dakota Education.

30:00

Department's ethics board. This

30:02

is taking a while to testify that

30:04

my clients were improperly displaying an image

30:06

of his grandmother's lawyers taking a life

30:08

on two of their steps of the

30:10

interiors. Which is

30:12

how we ended up at that ethics

30:15

hearing in Pierre, South Dakota. Yeah. That

30:18

was the LLC's lawyer you just heard,

30:20

Matthew Minsky, laying out their case against

30:22

Ray. In the most

30:24

extreme scenario for Ray, because of

30:26

the LLC's complaint, Ray

30:29

could have lost his teaching license. When

30:31

he decided to create his own set of

30:33

LeCote-aligning materials and

30:36

introduced them on blockings from the street. Plainly,

30:39

this should take a while as conduct constitutes

30:41

theft. Since the secret is in effect, you

30:43

have to... Hold up. The LLC

30:46

was accusing Ray of theft

30:49

for making language materials

30:51

with copyrighted LLC

30:53

stuff? It sure sounds

30:55

like it, which was one of Ray's big

30:57

issues from the beginning. The

30:59

idea that he could be given his

31:01

grandmother's stuff back, but still not be

31:04

entitled to use it. That's

31:06

like saying we gave you your

31:08

land back, and then accusing you

31:10

of trespassing. Did you really get your

31:12

land back? This is like Shakespearean

31:15

intrigue. The theft,

31:18

the betrayal, the fight over a

31:20

family legacy. But Christina...

31:23

Mm-hmm. After

31:26

hearing these different people express

31:28

their perspectives, I guess I'm

31:30

wondering, like,

31:32

who's right? Yeah. Is

31:35

Ray justified in wanting his grandmother's

31:37

materials back and wanting the tribe

31:40

to have control over the Lakota

31:42

language? Or is

31:44

the LLC justified in wanting to hold

31:46

tight to these copyrights so

31:49

that they can continue producing language

31:51

materials that do benefit communities?

31:57

Oof. So it

31:59

depends. on how you look at that. You

32:02

can analyze it in legal terms,

32:05

in practical terms, in

32:08

ethical terms. One

32:10

of the challenges of copyright law is that

32:12

we're working within a realm of

32:15

property and making things into

32:18

property that perhaps should

32:20

never be considered property

32:22

in the first place. That's

32:25

Jane Anderson. She's a lawyer who

32:27

specializes in copyright law and issues

32:29

of Indigenous sovereignty. And

32:32

so, copyright law upholds a certain kind

32:34

of property logic. And

32:38

that runs counter to how

32:41

Indigenous peoples and communities understand

32:44

their language materials, for instance, not

32:47

as property, but as cultural

32:51

gifts that

32:54

continue from the ancestors into

32:56

the future. That's not property. So,

33:00

Parker, there are laws

33:03

and regulations that were specifically

33:05

designed to protect Indigenous cultures.

33:08

The United Nations Declaration on the

33:11

Rights of Indigenous Peoples says, Indigenous

33:13

peoples have the right to revitalize,

33:16

use, and transmit their

33:18

histories, languages, oral

33:20

traditions, philosophies, writing systems,

33:22

literatures. Then there's the

33:25

Native American Language Act of 1990. And it

33:27

states that it's U.S. policy

33:29

to promote the rights of Native Americans

33:31

to use, practice, and develop

33:33

Native American languages. And

33:36

tribal nations also have their own protections

33:38

and their own laws. In

33:40

the case of the Standing Rock Sioux

33:42

Nation, where Ray is a citizen, where

33:44

Dolores was a citizen, there's a language

33:46

resolution that was passed by tribal council,

33:48

resolution 15022, in which

33:51

Standing Rock asserts, quote,

33:53

inherent retained intellectual property

33:56

rights, end quote, in

33:58

perpetuity. forever,

34:01

for anything related to the

34:03

language and anything recorded or

34:06

photos taken of any tribal member

34:08

and their descendants. That

34:11

seems pointed. It

34:14

is. Copyright law

34:16

really was not developed as a

34:19

tool to support oral cultures or

34:21

indigenous people generally. It

34:24

was a tool to support written

34:28

cultures and to

34:30

exploit knowledge. There's already

34:32

an inherent imbalance that

34:34

sits within the law. So

34:38

all of these questions about, you

34:40

know, who controls the

34:42

Lakota language, who does it belong

34:44

to, maybe it's not just

34:46

a legal problem. It's

34:49

an ethical, it's an equity,

34:51

it's a historical justice. Problem.

34:56

This conversation around ownership is

34:58

happening in a lot of

35:01

different spaces. And it's

35:03

changing quickly. Jay noted

35:05

that in asking who owns the

35:07

language, we're maybe using

35:09

the wrong kinds of words and

35:11

concepts. OK, so

35:14

what would she suggest instead?

35:16

Stewardship. Hmm. And

35:19

with stewardship, a

35:22

different combination of people can be

35:24

part of decision making.

35:27

Tribal council, elders, they

35:29

can all weigh in with different levels of

35:32

authority, which leads to a

35:34

different kind of relationship, but also

35:36

different kinds of questions. How

35:39

do you look after the

35:41

ecosystem around language,

35:44

language speaking, cultural

35:46

knowledge that comes from language that

35:49

is a lot bigger than

35:51

just, you know, who

35:54

owns this tape? So...

36:00

Where does this leave Ray and Alex

36:02

right now? So, Ray

36:05

got to keep his teaching license, going back

36:07

to that hearing. All right. Yeah,

36:09

he's still doing curriculum work.

36:11

He's actually working with Marvel

36:14

to create a Lakota language dub of

36:17

the Avengers through Standing Rock. But,

36:21

Ray still doesn't have the rights

36:23

to his grandmother's materials. So,

36:26

he's still working with Standing Rock to figure out

36:28

a way to get them. Like,

36:31

that very small and

36:34

also very big height is

36:36

very much still happening. All

36:40

right, what about Alex? Alex

36:42

is now the executive director of

36:44

the LLC. So, he's the head

36:46

of that organization and has the

36:48

most individual power to change things.

36:51

And his tribe supports the LLC's work. The

36:54

Oglala Sioux Tribe passed a resolution

36:56

in January seeking funding for LLC

36:59

programming. But, Alex

37:01

is now dealing with the same big

37:04

questions that Jan was about

37:06

how to both share ownership and

37:09

maintain copyright so you can print

37:11

materials. So, Ray

37:13

and Alex are kind of

37:16

at an impasse. They kind of are at

37:18

an impasse. And, in a way,

37:20

so is the language. You

37:23

know, for all of the work

37:25

that Alex and Ray are both

37:27

doing individually, the

37:29

number of fluent Lakota speakers has

37:32

gone down. And

37:34

that's frustrating. We

37:36

wouldn't be in this situation with our language if

37:39

it weren't for the colonial systems that have been imposed on

37:41

us. For

37:43

me, like, the overlying mission is

37:46

to do what's best for the language. And

37:49

dividing our people is not what's best for the

37:51

language. You

37:56

know, we've been talking to

37:58

the younger generation. who is part

38:00

of the story now, but all

38:03

of this makes me think of Dolores again, and some

38:06

of what her grandfather told her. Don't

38:08

ever lose your Lakota language. Always

38:11

remember and speak your Lakota

38:13

language. I feel like

38:15

Ray and Alex are both kind

38:17

of holding fast to that. In

38:20

their own ways, they are. But

38:23

they're focusing on different parts of the

38:25

message. Alex

38:27

is focused on the don't lose it part.

38:30

He's doing everything he can to make

38:32

sure that the Lakota language is codified

38:35

and written down and preserved so it

38:37

can never be lost. But

38:40

for Ray, it seems like the

38:43

focus is on the idea that

38:45

Lakota, this is his language, and

38:48

this language, the Lakota language, it

38:51

belongs to the Lakota people. Here's

38:53

Dolores again. No matter how

38:56

educated you are, in

38:59

order for you to translate our Lakota

39:01

language, which is ours,

39:04

if I speak my truest

39:07

Lakota language, you'll be able

39:09

to translate that. And

39:14

that's worth remembering too, that

39:16

different people, Jan, Wilhelm, Jane,

39:19

you, me, we can all

39:22

think about the situation and try to

39:24

make sense of it and debate who's

39:26

right and who's wrong, but maybe

39:29

there's a truer, deeper, more

39:31

fundamental part of the story

39:33

that we'll never be able

39:35

to quite capture. Because

39:38

it's not ours. And

39:40

we don't have the words to hear it. And

39:51

that's our show. You can follow us

39:54

on Instagram at NPR Code Switch. If

39:57

email is more your thing, ours is codeswitch

39:59

at NPR. and

40:01

subscribe to the podcast on the NPR app

40:03

or wherever you get your podcasts. You

40:06

can also subscribe to the

40:08

Code Switch newsletter by going

40:10

to npr.org/Code Switch newsletter. Just

40:13

wanted to give a quick shout out to our

40:15

Code Switch Plus listeners. We appreciate

40:17

you and thank you for being a

40:20

subscriber. Subscribing to Code Switch

40:22

Plus means getting to listen to all

40:24

of our episodes without any sponsor breaks.

40:27

It also helps to point our show. So

40:29

if you love our work,

40:32

please consider signing up at

40:34

plus dot npr.org/Code Switch. This

40:37

episode was produced by Xavier Lopez,

40:39

Courtney Stein, and me. It

40:41

was edited by Leah Danella and Courtney Stein.

40:44

Our engineer was Robert Rodriguez. And

40:47

a big shout out to the

40:49

rest of the Code Switch massive. Jess

40:51

Kung, Dahlia Mortada, Skylar Swinson, Cher

40:53

Vincent, Verlyn Williams, Gene

40:55

Demby, and Lori Lizraga. All

40:58

thanks to Kevin Vocal, Gramlee Brewer,

41:00

Johannes Durghe, Kimimila Locke,

41:02

Sam Yellowhorse Kessler, and Alexei

41:04

Horowitz-Gazi. And we just

41:07

wanted to acknowledge Nicole E. Duchino, who died in

41:09

2023, but whose work continues

41:12

to shape these critical conversations

41:14

around indigenous sovereignty. I'm

41:17

B.A. Parker. I'm

41:19

Christina Kala. Hi,

41:21

Dreet. Hasta

41:24

pronto. This message

41:26

comes from NPR sponsor Shopify.

41:28

The One Million Black Businesses

41:30

Initiative created with Operation Hope

41:32

gives black entrepreneurs tools to

41:34

level the playing field. Find

41:37

an exclusive 120 day

41:39

free trial at shopify.com/Code

41:42

Switch. This message

41:44

comes from NPR sponsor Mint Mobile. From

41:46

the gas pump to the grocery store,

41:48

inflation is everywhere. So Mint Mobile is

41:51

offering premium wireless starting at just $15

41:53

a month. To

41:55

get your new phone plan

41:57

for just $15, go to

41:59

mintmobile.com/Switch. This is

42:01

a message from This is History

42:04

with Dan Jones. Let renowned historian

42:06

Dan Jones guide you through a

42:08

landscape of rivalry, treachery, and murder,

42:10

bringing to life the epic struggles

42:12

of Henry and Edward. Listen to

42:15

This is History, season 4, now

42:17

on your favorite podcast platform.