0:00

This. Message comes from Npr

0:02

Sponsor Shopify! The One Million

0:04

Black Businesses initiative created with

0:07

Operation Hope gives black entrepreneurs

0:09

tools to level the playing

0:11

field. find an exclusive one

0:14

hundred twenty day free trial

0:16

at shopify.com/coats which. You're.

0:18

Listening to Codes which the show that recent

0:20

identity from Npr i'm Gene then be. On.

0:24

Thursday the family of Oj Simpson announced

0:27

that he died he was seventy six.

0:31

Oh. They spent the first half of his

0:33

life known as a record breaking football

0:35

superstar in college and then later and

0:37

Nfl. But of course, in the back

0:39

half of his life he was the

0:41

defendant and one of the most highly

0:44

publicized murder trials in American history. That

0:46

trial and which are just some some

0:48

was accused of killing his ex wife

0:50

Nicole Brown and her friend Ron Goldman

0:52

in Nineteen Eighty Four, was covered with

0:54

the kind of zeal and their own

0:56

is that seems like impossible today. There

0:58

are some estimates there somewhere between ninety

1:00

five to one. Hundred fifty million people

1:02

watched the verdict love when it was

1:05

announced, and race became central to orgies,

1:07

the fence, and the trial in some

1:09

ways and became the rickety platform upon

1:11

which the American public wouldn't well litigate

1:14

their feelings about race to the point

1:16

where that discourse often eclipse the two

1:18

homicides at the center of the trial.

1:21

The irony is that Oj Simpson I spent

1:23

much of the public life to that point

1:26

actively trying to not touch race. He was

1:28

famously quoted as saying quote I'm a black,

1:30

I'm O J and quote he wanted to

1:32

be marketable and bankable and post racial decades

1:35

before that was even a coinage. But I

1:37

just hope they will become an avatar for

1:39

so many of the anxieties and resentment around

1:41

the way race and class and celebrity function

1:44

in the United States. Back,

1:46

it's really sixteen I spoke with as

1:48

were Edelman. He directed the critically acclaimed

1:50

five part Yes Be and documentary O

1:52

J Made in America and we will

1:54

get into their conversation in a moment.

2:01

This. This message comes

2:04

from NPR sponsor, Teladoc Health.

2:06

There are lots of

2:08

reasons for wanting to be

2:10

healthy. Family, work, living a

2:13

fuller life. Teladoc Health understands.

2:15

Whether you have diabetes,

2:17

high blood pressure, or just

2:20

need to manage your weight,

2:22

Teladoc Health can help. Visit

2:25

teladochealth.com/whatsyourwhy for more information. That's

2:27

T-E-L-A-D-O-C health slash whatsyourwhy. This.

2:30

Message comes from Npr sponsor Who

2:32

Dies and to the chilling Knew

2:34

Who original series Under the Bridge.

2:37

the rebutting adaptation of the acclaimed

2:39

True Crime book based on shocking

2:41

true events. Under the Bridge tells

2:43

the hunting story of a murderer

2:46

that lays bare a small communities

2:48

darkest secrets go deep into the

2:50

hidden world of the towns tormented

2:53

teenagers as detectives race to solve

2:55

the sinister crime. Starring Riley Keogh

2:57

and Lily Gladstone, Under the Bridge.

3:00

Premier's April seventeenth. Streaming

3:02

only on Hulu. This

3:04

message comes from Npr. Sponsor or

3:06

help. It's easy to ignore your

3:08

social battery and spread yourself too

3:11

thin. Therapy can provide the tools

3:13

and self awareness to help you

3:15

learn how to recharge, define your

3:17

boundaries, and build a social life

3:19

that doesn't drain your battery. Find

3:21

your social sweet spot with a

3:24

better help Online Therapy: Fill out

3:26

a brief questionnaire to get matched

3:28

with a licensed therapist and switch

3:30

therapist at any time for no

3:32

additional charge. Visit Better health.com/ Npr

3:34

today to get ten percent off

3:36

your first month. This. Message

3:39

comes from Npr Sponsor Progressive: What

3:41

is comparing car insurance rates was

3:43

as easy as putting on your

3:45

favorite podcast With Progressive Eight is

3:47

just visit their website to get

3:49

a quote with all the coverages

3:51

you want. you'll see Progressive Direct

3:53

Rate and their tool will provide

3:55

options from other companies so you

3:57

can compare. then just choose the

3:59

raid and the average you like

4:01

quote a day A progressive.com Progressive

4:03

Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates Comparison

4:05

Rates not available in all states

4:07

are situations Prices vary based on

4:09

how you buy. Ice.

4:15

Also in light of the news this week

4:17

we've figured it may since the real up

4:19

that conversation with as were adamant about why

4:21

able to with so important that the already

4:24

rabidly covered story of Oj Simpson was crying

4:26

of even more context and we started which

4:28

I just. Makes sense of the man himself.

4:30

I just a heads up. this kind of is because he's

4:32

He's of a racial slur. Or.

4:35

I'm going to resist the opportunity to

4:37

play psychiatrist but I'm I do think

4:39

by the choices at he made it

4:41

seems very clear that there's this pattern

4:44

of for lack of a better phrasing.

4:46

Moving. On up! I mean, I

4:48

look at his life in some ways

4:50

as like these wrongs that he keeps progressing.

4:53

From one to the next, to the

4:55

next. Than so, whether it's first yes,

4:58

transcending it, the poverty, than it's transcending

5:00

the blackness and a certain points ago

5:02

transcending being an athlete. And.

5:04

Then it's like oh maybe it's earn points transcending.

5:07

Being. In a justice sort of celebrity

5:09

because of his as athletic gifts name

5:11

is which is now I want to

5:14

be a serious actor. There's a sense

5:16

of his continual desire to be legitimize

5:18

or to further legitimize himself. And you

5:20

wonder? You know, I wonder. It's

5:22

impossible to know how someone who had

5:25

everything com so easy to him. and

5:27

he was so gifted. Predator naturally so

5:29

in the world was just laid out

5:31

his feet in many ways because of

5:33

those gifts, not just his athletic gifts

5:35

on his looks and his charm charisma.

5:37

Yeah, yeah, I mean all that, I

5:39

think he allowed him to, sort of,

5:42

you know, go to the world and

5:44

a very easy way. I think that

5:46

you wonder what happens after you are

5:48

the best at this thing. And

5:50

you know everyone kisses your ass because of it.

5:52

and then even if you attain his fame, you

5:55

don't get to be that in this other arena.

5:57

Are not a good actor. Or. I'm

5:59

not as smart as these are the people in

6:01

business. And what does that do to you When

6:03

you still have the same ego and you still

6:05

have the same ambition? Where'd you go in your

6:08

head. To. Try to sort of still be

6:10

that guy. These. Are the questions

6:12

I'm trying to explore so without having

6:14

any. Answer for you: I

6:16

think that that something that we're really

6:18

trying to just present his sort of

6:20

evolution as a character in the world,

6:22

and to have a viewer sort of

6:24

absorb it to make their own. To.

6:27

Draw their own conclusions. And will

6:29

ask you this question about the idea that okay

6:31

transcendent could was trying to france racist in the

6:33

be like the template that you know Michael Jordan.

6:35

years later oh more try to you later Tiger

6:38

Woods deflate how to use it's had an employee

6:40

this thing and so he was the gods. Deeply

6:42

a political billie since public life I don't represented

6:44

the extent to which Oj was the the first

6:47

dude. He was a pioneer. Yes if I knew

6:49

he he broke the more. But here's the thing

6:51

for the hurts and again. The. Dude

6:53

was in several a commercial than Rc Call

6:55

commercials before he played down the Nfl. I

6:57

mean like I'm fascinated by that. How does

6:59

a guy and up in National. Tv.

7:02

Ads before his professional football as a

7:04

black athlete. And there's no black athlete

7:06

who's ever been a corporate sponsor in

7:08

way like I'm amazed by that and

7:11

tear point. He really did curry this

7:13

paradigm. That. Begat Michael Jordan.

7:15

Who. Begat Tiger Woods. I look at Oj sort

7:18

of trajectory is you know you look at

7:20

sort of our culture. He created this idea

7:22

of i'm going to protect mine, I'm all

7:24

about me. I'm all about sort of. Furthering

7:27

my image to make myself palatable to

7:29

everyone in America to be safe so

7:31

I can be famous and I can

7:33

be rich and that's something that is

7:35

a model that people use going forward.

7:37

and with the that literally in the

7:39

her Dad has. So

7:43

far. Out

7:45

in a majority of his airport before

7:47

you get their your boss fill out

7:49

cause criticize. So

7:53

there was this: Crisis isn't in the

7:55

production of that commercial. That.

7:57

There could be no other a black people in

7:59

the but. Though, Do something. Because.

8:01

They needed to make Oj safe for why

8:03

people. We. Make of it.

8:06

It. Seems. Bizarre. And

8:08

two thousand and sixteen that someone would have to go out

8:11

of their way to make sure. That. You

8:13

know this wouldn't be interpreted a certain way. In.

8:15

Nineteen Seventy Five that we're talking about? This is

8:18

so the question is, are you surprised that. This.

8:20

Was something that they even thought about that

8:22

surprisingly. Ah yes. I guess it isn't terribly

8:24

surprising that you're like, okay, we need to

8:27

have literally surround him like put him in

8:29

a universal of why people I guess is

8:31

uprising. And as understand

8:33

a psychotic the documentary now but like. That.

8:35

He would go along with it. can be

8:38

just one other negro for hims of background

8:40

somewhere. You know how when I think that

8:42

for that menotti feel good I mean look,

8:44

you can interpret the the statement many makes

8:46

when he's waving his house on June Seventeen,

8:49

Ninety Ninety Four when he looks around says

8:51

what all these niggers the an umbrella were,

8:53

what's that all about oh she says that

8:55

to the police after he finally surrendered himself

8:58

to them on that when his back in

9:00

Brentwood after the conclusion of that long slow

9:02

speed police, after he's already been arrested and

9:04

all those. Crowd

9:07

gasps same. Same

9:12

same. Time.

9:17

I'm sorry worse. As

9:22

we take off simpsons amazed

9:25

as crass lack of lack

9:27

lack at Black and white

9:29

and leaves many people. In

9:33

Brentwood was is a basically an

9:35

all white omelet larry and and

9:37

a sleepy area and there is

9:39

all these young's especially black folks.

9:41

They're cheering him on. And.

9:43

So when he leaves the year in the car he

9:45

he. Won his first things he says

9:48

to Peter wire eater who is the negotiator and he

9:50

says what are all these New Years doing in Brentwood.

9:53

With semi with A and the be selected

9:55

massive outpouring of my support. Bad like keep

9:57

on the street or he loved his column

9:59

people. He's honest, I went to

10:01

police. He has a gun. I'm sure

10:03

he's not in the most stable of

10:06

mindset so that he might not have

10:08

noticed all those people or you know

10:10

who they were demographically would not shock

10:12

me. Doing the police chase, you see

10:14

a celebrity sort of coming to bear

10:16

on the way they treated him so

10:18

he sort of them in his eyes

10:20

when I love layout that scene. So

10:22

and so we Tories the helicopter pilot

10:24

with the first us into find Oj

10:26

Simpson in his white bronco on the

10:28

on the freeway. She says. Is not

10:31

the way police chase with anyone else would

10:33

look. At

10:35

covered so many of these things. Was

10:38

not unusual police behavior. Be

10:49

on the ground. In

10:52

fact it sounds mail fetch some

10:54

sense that ended in policemen your

10:56

car ramming into suspects cars and

10:58

get him on the ground and

11:01

beating them. You know in there

11:03

really is about celebrity and you

11:05

wonder? you know? Obviously O

11:07

J is. Sort. Of. Were

11:10

going to the world and distancing himself

11:12

publicly. As far as you know, talking

11:14

about matters of race that was distinct,

11:16

but you wonder if you're black and

11:19

a celebrity? Had normal that treatment

11:21

as I'm sure the plenty instance where. Black.

11:24

People who are celebrities my get profound and

11:26

pulled over before then they realize who they

11:28

are. And. Then yeah but in that

11:30

way I think is more o j celebrity in

11:33

the end and by the way that as a

11:35

celebrity but the insult. To celebrity

11:37

was predicated on this goodness everyone loved him.

11:39

wasn't just he was famous to heat into.

11:41

know that bunch of goodwill right? Yeah, that's

11:44

bit so. to the shock that we all

11:46

thought was like this kid. This isn't possible

11:48

that this dude capable of these things because

11:50

he's never publicly shown anything to make us

11:52

think that he has that side the right

11:55

Him playing them as Yellen by on came

11:57

with our culture frail boxing and so you

11:59

wonder how. It's you know that, the pure celebrity

12:01

of him? I think it's more that than any

12:03

chumminess hand with the police. Is

12:06

far as a treatment he received on June seventeenth, But.

12:09

It's one of the reasons why this thing

12:11

is so. Bizarre.

12:14

One of the thing that me a

12:16

cancer talk about the scene was and

12:18

this moment in which the defense takes

12:20

me Juri the doors the jury is

12:22

mostly black to oh she's house and

12:24

the defense team. Has basically

12:26

rearranged his house in a

12:28

way. To look

12:31

like a black person's I was like oh did

12:33

they never many go to the black holes in

12:35

it as at all and says of and seem

12:37

com the two thousand put up pitches of Oj

12:39

with life of because of portraits Norman Rockwell painting

12:42

to prom we all live with Ruby Bridges his

12:44

d segregating the school or his wall and I

12:46

guess it came from Johnny Cochrane office. This

12:49

crafts and so. Did. Just that

12:51

moment with so if they had to dig in

12:53

the crates defined pictures of owes you a black

12:55

people. With so bananas

12:57

in mean that was like he

12:59

didn't even have pictures of black.

13:02

Both just like laying around. the

13:04

had a surfer them when you

13:06

would walk up a grand staircase.

13:08

There was a large ah exes

13:11

of the family. Of

13:14

Friends. X's

13:17

and O's A

13:19

Career problem was

13:21

the overwhelming majority

13:23

of pictures were

13:25

of caucasian. Friends and

13:27

colleagues of his. We

13:33

had an African American Juri

13:35

and we wanted to make

13:38

sure that the home said

13:40

he would reflect the themes

13:43

that we wanted to reflect.

13:47

We took off his white friends down. Promise

13:49

Black people are pictures he

13:52

probably never seen before. Because

13:56

that's what we were told me,

13:58

Juri. We've

14:01

made him black. Or

14:03

you like. In some ways, it's like it

14:05

speaks to the savvy ness if not deviousness

14:07

of the defense. And so it's like you

14:09

do what you need to do to. You

14:12

know when the case to me like

14:14

the pictures are weirdly a lot less

14:16

egregious than the painting. Because

14:18

those are still pictures that O J

14:20

was then and they were existed. like

14:23

an Arnold. They're buried underneath and basement.

14:25

They were just there, were there somewhere.

14:27

So they're there to be put up.

14:29

So obviously it's you know, And it's

14:31

devious to take down all those photos

14:33

which were the ones that O J

14:35

wanted to display prominently you know, on

14:37

that stairwell in his house. And so

14:39

that obviously the misrepresentation of you know,

14:41

Oh Jays world and his house and

14:43

how he presents himself to the world.

14:45

But it's almost like. Going

14:47

back it's this is the appropriation. Of

14:51

the struggle and of the movements.

14:53

and of a girl like Ruby

14:55

Bridges walking into a school in

14:57

Nineteen Sixty in New Orleans and

14:59

you're putting that up. But.

15:01

The top of his their cases of o gives us. That's

15:05

was messed up about that. You know the facts in

15:07

the sense even like would go there. And

15:09

when know to go there it's brilliant. It's

15:13

hilarious, but it's brilliant. Marsa.

15:16

Saw. The

15:18

wall. And she said carl.

15:20

You. Know damn well he had

15:22

never had this many black people

15:25

on his wall his entire life.

15:28

Ah, are you talking

15:30

about you? It's users

15:32

are such things. I

15:35

was miserable. I was angry. At

15:38

is very dirty pool as a fantasy. so

15:40

fascinating and dark. I'm just because I mean

15:42

or just had a black family recipes with

15:45

think that he would have felt as though

15:47

that's the whole thing My all this conversation

15:49

winky time it's like. You. And on

15:51

people say oh did in only black or white and

15:53

slick ot was black I don't think you'd ever

15:55

hear him say i mean like he says, it's publicly

15:57

and that I'm not black M O J But. More

16:00

about how sort of. Weirdly narcissistic,

16:02

an egotistical, and all about himself. He

16:04

is but ambiguous sitting there talking Oj

16:06

him. but he wouldn't say i'm not

16:09

black, is these black He knows his

16:11

black and so like. But it's just

16:13

like the choices that he made publicly

16:15

in a bullet. That notion you mean

16:18

do they keep you think you know

16:20

the black? I mean. December.

16:22

He within days This you know. Decade

16:25

long projected minimize as much as

16:27

possible. Always. Look misses

16:29

where I wish I could be drawing upon

16:31

you know all those hours of conversations I

16:33

had with him. But

16:36

yeah, I think he always knew he was

16:38

black. I think he might have had this

16:40

weird ambition and notion of himself as being

16:43

you know, transcending race. And

16:45

thinking that he just doesn't want to be defined

16:47

by his blackness. More. So than

16:49

someone him being like i'm not this even

16:51

with the sort of links that he went

16:54

to public could lead sort of distance himself

16:56

into not be defined by his blackness. I

16:58

don't think that O J, for instance, wanted

17:00

to be white. I don't

17:02

believe that. I think the i just wanted to

17:04

live and do whatever the hell he wanted to

17:06

do. And. If that

17:08

was living in a white world, I don't think

17:10

he was like trying to lighten his and. I.

17:13

Don't believe that if he went to that extent.

17:16

I just thinking of something he didn't want

17:18

to be burned or talk about in any

17:20

form time. And anyway, So. The

17:22

title was a Made in America How do you want.

17:24

The. Title of the documentary to be interpreted

17:26

or. That. Hour and

17:28

a real simplistic fashion that this is a

17:31

story that is much better than Oj first

17:33

and foremost shows, but that everything in terms

17:35

of who Oj was and his ambition sort

17:37

of yeah, he was created by. Us.

17:41

In this story is as much as

17:43

as it is him and he can

17:45

only be explained by his relationship to

17:47

this country in which. He

17:49

grew up in. But

17:51

you know a thing even speaks to. Everything.

17:54

That sort of happened between his life but

17:56

every the and happened terms of why people

17:58

were so fascinated with the trial. There.

18:00

Are so many of these things everything that

18:02

it touches on that are so profoundly and

18:04

uniquely American? Everything about this story

18:06

about race and celebrity, our culture, and everything

18:09

else. It's such a profound American tail. So.

18:14

Okay, I'm in America. As

18:16

are adamant is the director of he has

18:19

been thirty for thirty documentary O J made

18:21

in America that you so at all as

18:23

as references or thank you Dream Prices. Are

18:31

so that. Is also. Follow

18:34

us on Instagram and Bianco which we will

18:36

have that if emails more you think ours

18:39

is codes which at npr.org discover the podcast

18:41

on the Mp, our app or wherever you

18:43

get your bike as you can also describes

18:45

because was newsletter by go with the npr.org

18:48

Last Cause was newsletter and another way to

18:50

support our care is to sign up for

18:52

coast which plus it's small but it really

18:55

makes a difference for us and Uk to

18:57

listen to every single cause which episode without

18:59

any as so check it out a plus

19:01

the Mcr dot org/costs which and beg you

19:04

to everybody's. Already signed up. This

19:06

episode was originally produced. By

19:08

Walter Ray Watson. It was edited

19:10

by to me Rather and Lisa

19:12

Montgomery and I will Be or Mr

19:14

by the National. The rest of the

19:17

cause was massive. That's Christina Collar Exhibit

19:19

Lopez Just com Legionella Time or Tata

19:21

Vernon Williams. Be a Parker Loyally that

19:24

August Skyler Swenson and services as a

19:26

Me. On seen them be. Be.

19:29

Easier. This.

19:31

Message: Cancer meant yeah, Sponsor: satisfy the

19:33

global com as possible and that helps

19:36

you sell and sell off exactly the

19:38

way you want to customize your online

19:40

store to your style. Sign up for

19:42

a one dollar per month trial period

19:45

at South aside.com/and he. Support.

19:47

For this podcast and the following

19:50

message come from Macmillan Audio: Dive

19:52

Into Fishing. Lose that three body

19:54

Problem with a brand new audio

19:56

book addition Read by Rosalind Show

19:58

star of the upcoming. Netflix series,

20:00

get the audio book of the

20:03

Three Body Problem. Wherever audio books

20:05

are sold, There's. A

20:07

lot of stuff to watch out there.

20:09

Top are happy Hour a four day

20:11

a week, twenty minute as a podcast

20:13

subs you pick out that's is of

20:15

your next Big Ben. Whether it's a

20:17

new show, a blessing.or a movie that

20:19

we can't stop talking about. Supports are

20:21

happy hour. Here with a recommendation

20:23

your wanna snuggle up with? Guarantee

20:25

isn't Apostles are happy hour every

20:28

day only from Npr.