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Good job you're listening to codes which I'm Jean

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Dobby and join me in the Colo chair. Today

0:28

is cause which a senior editor lead the know

0:30

it Leah was go with you Hygiene are so

0:32

let's get read his wit where we go, where

0:34

we all. Felt my

0:36

me ask you something team have you ever

0:39

sat Sheva. I've nuts, but

0:41

I know it's It's a Jewish morning

0:43

ritual, right? And

0:45

you go over some at his house after

0:47

a loved one has died and you sit

0:49

with them and you share memories is that

0:52

there were. Yeah, that's exactly

0:54

it. There's often a lot of food

0:56

around, at least when my family know

0:59

that I'm and you know it. Different

1:01

people have different traditions, but generally it's

1:03

observed for seven days. Sheva mean seven,

1:06

And in my experience, it's a really

1:08

comforting ritual that's kind of both communal

1:10

and very intimate. Have it sounds like

1:12

a can be kind of intense for the reader

1:14

family too. Little. Oh yeah

1:17

can be very intense am an

1:19

earlier this year I went to

1:21

a shiver that was. Intense.

1:24

But besides that it was kind of unlike

1:26

any other that I had experienced before. How

1:29

so? Well. A big thing was

1:31

that involved a lot more chanting membership

1:33

as I'm used to. Have.

1:40

Yeah, so this Sheva was organized by

1:42

If Not Now, which is a group

1:44

that tries to organize American Jews around

1:46

issues of justice and equality for Palestinians

1:48

and Israelis. And the Sheva was meant

1:50

to be a space where people could

1:52

publicly mine the lives of the tens

1:54

of thousands of people who'd been killed

1:57

in Gaza in Israel. Since October Seventh,

1:59

it took place. That of Kamala Harris

2:01

and Dog Amhars L A residence. So.

2:03

That day out in the pouring rain.

2:06

We. Said the mourners Cottage which is the Jewish prayer

2:08

for the dad. Is

2:10

all gosh up on that. Also

2:13

Muslim and Christian morning prayers as

2:15

well, each led by Palestinian women

2:17

who were there as allies. And

2:26

or oh lord we

2:28

humbly our brothers. And

2:35

yeah, I don't have you noticed that is

2:37

actually illegal for Jews to get together and

2:40

not saying like it simply isn't done. We

2:42

are for preserving the root of them

2:44

devotee since I. Have

2:47

no So throughout the day there

2:49

was a lot of thinking fire.

2:52

Now. That

2:55

I. Am

2:59

A huge part of a shiver was focus

3:01

on the idea that there are a lot

3:03

of jews who are horrified with Israel's bombardment

3:05

of Gaza and want to reclaim space as

3:08

jews. To protest what's going on. Unfortunately,

3:11

Are Closer has really been captured by

3:13

the sort of our that surrounds are

3:16

unconditional support for Israel and and it's

3:18

created a sort of litmus test where.

3:20

You can only be. Jewish quote

3:23

Unquote If you're willing to

3:25

support Israel, know where? Are

3:28

you a saying? That for

3:30

hims with thousands of yoga. Boys.

3:34

Of our constitutional liberties with

3:36

the identity of. Or

3:39

church or history or secure said

3:41

are actually the faces or solidarity

3:44

with other marginalized people. That.

3:48

Last ways you heard was will all them. And.

3:50

His speech sit at me because I

3:53

thought it really captured some major points

3:55

of tension. He talks about the fear

3:57

that gets passed down and so many

3:59

Jewish families from. One generation to the next.

4:01

One. Of my earliest memories as of my

4:03

mother her horrified says you have the

4:05

right through what she thought was a

4:08

swastika on my school know thought it

4:10

was not a swastika, i was trying

4:12

to draw the sushi symbol or that

4:14

cool as as as early nineties of

4:16

L A. But.

4:19

Since the I saw her eyes is

4:21

something I sociology beside me. We.

4:25

Carry on people's trauma in our bodies. But.

4:29

Will also talked about the way the trauma can

4:31

be channeled into meaning and action. He said that

4:33

for a long time he felt kind of resigned

4:35

to the street or the world. But.

4:37

When his son was born Will said

4:39

his heart expanded. And. So did

4:41

his sense of his own. Obligations. How

4:44

can these birds a Jewish girl who are

4:46

not caused her to equip thousand. Eight

4:50

about I. Think

4:52

about of the days ago. And.

4:58

You. Know Will ended his speech with

5:00

a pretty intense time. He

5:02

said that the soul of the Jewish

5:04

people. Is. Being poisoned by

5:07

the idea that Jewish safety requires

5:09

unconditionally supporting the Israeli government and

5:11

military, the question of whether weeks

5:14

up with poison or set up

5:16

in our theory as an ad

5:18

hoc way. All of

5:21

us together. Not not. Lose

5:28

You know sort of one

5:30

about the ways that Jewish

5:32

American identity has been time

5:34

to the speed of his

5:36

roof woman's home. So imagine.

5:39

For the people who are observing the civil that

5:42

this is very front police within the been. For

5:44

a lot of people it was and

5:47

that's why this shiver. This very unusual

5:49

server to me felt like a small

5:51

window into something much better. That's been

5:53

happening for a while now. has a

5:55

generation of shoes who are trying to

5:57

break away from what used to be.

6:00

Then in many Jewish. Spaces if you

6:02

were Jewish, he would support Israel.

6:04

and that was that. And that's

6:06

what we're talking about today on

6:08

the So I'll take. And

6:11

the Wake Up October seventh. It's clear

6:13

that that mainstream consensus no longer exists

6:15

and probably hasn't for a long. Time.

6:19

Jewish Police changes from the staunchest support of

6:21

Israel to the most blistering critique of the

6:23

state. And as

6:25

more and more to speak out

6:27

against actions of the Israeli government

6:29

and military, it's exposing deep breaths

6:31

within Jewish communities including ones are

6:34

threatening to break friendships, families, and

6:36

institutions, Apart. Wow Look

6:38

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6:40

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8:10

Part of the reason I wanted to do this

8:13

episode and also part of the reason that I

8:15

was very nervous about doing this episode is. Almost.

8:18

Immediately and the days following October seventh, I

8:20

started to realize that there was a divide

8:22

within my own family when it came to

8:25

Israel. Different. People had really

8:27

different perceptions of what was going on so

8:29

as to play him and what. Was

8:31

at stake to I'm I'm

8:33

sure. To

8:35

that's a brother. Ah,

8:38

the positions know. But the

8:41

intensity? Yes. And.

8:44

It did make me curious about how this

8:46

was going down and other jewish families since

8:48

I did not wanna interview my office. For

8:51

their surfaces, we're. And I

8:53

was particularly curious about what this was like

8:55

for the growing number of Jewish people who

8:57

are going against the grain and questioning the

8:59

actions of Israel. So I started asking people

9:01

if they had stories. They were willing to

9:04

share about how all this was affecting their

9:06

relationships, friendships and communities. And even though the

9:08

people I spoke see I had a wide

9:10

variety of life circumstances, there was definitely some.

9:12

consistency is and what they told. Me what

9:14

kind of other they have in common. Wealth.

9:17

From one, they were all. Devastated.

9:20

By let Israel as during together

9:22

and they also implicated in it

9:24

to a certain degree. Almost everyone

9:27

brought up the word complicit, They've

9:30

all been in the midst of really

9:33

painful and hence arguments with friends and

9:35

family, some of which has led to

9:37

several relationships. And they

9:39

are all trying really hard to figure

9:41

out what to do as human beings,

9:43

as Americans, and again as you. Specifically

9:45

Okay, so for me, a little more about

9:48

each of these people. Forget.

9:50

I'll start with you. I climb the youngest

9:52

to the bench. Their twenty six trans from

9:54

Texas and this is what they wrote to

9:57

me and an email. Most

9:59

a. The micro community or not

10:01

Jewish and or loudly and proudly pro

10:03

Palestine. I also consider myself a loud

10:06

and proud pro Palestinian. Said difference though,

10:08

is that I do see the nuance.

10:10

And yet I feel like I'm not allowed

10:12

to point out these nuances. Or else I

10:14

will be labeled as complicit in genocide. I

10:17

called the Lats get a little bit more

10:19

of their backstory and they told me that

10:21

growing up they learned to love. Israel Against

10:23

Oversight the Israeli National anthem from

10:25

memory and even went there twice.

10:27

Growing up I was only ever

10:29

around sinus Jews. I didn't even

10:31

know it was possible to be

10:34

Jewish and not love Israel. That.

10:36

All changed around the time they went

10:38

to college, they moved to any city,

10:40

started meeting people who are openly critical

10:42

of Israel and eventually took a class

10:44

i Have How Stay In Professor which

10:46

gave a fuller perspective of the creation

10:48

of Israel and that was kind. Of

10:50

a turning point. Ah, so the

10:52

classic college bubble burst numerous. Classic?

10:55

Yes, So now he lies, a

10:58

vocal critic of the war in

11:00

Gaza and a supporter of Palestinian

11:02

rights. But. As you heard

11:04

them say earlier at these kind of

11:07

been taken aback by of lack of

11:09

nuance that days accents and some places.

11:12

Many. Of my non Jewish friends who only have.

11:14

Learned about the history of the region in

11:16

the last few months have shared calls for

11:18

a total dismantlement of the state of Israel,

11:20

some even calling for all the jews to

11:22

go back to whatever country they came from.

11:25

It's as if they think the state of Israel

11:27

was created in a vacuum. But yeah, I saw

11:29

remember as well. But they learned about Israel growing

11:31

up. That. in the years following the

11:33

holocaust of is a place that many Jewish

11:35

refugees that. And they felt there was

11:37

no else for them to go know. Com country to

11:40

return to. Sell

11:42

Now Eli is kind of in a

11:44

proposition. Attending protests and

11:46

events in support of Palestinian rights but

11:48

in some personal conversations, filling a pretty

11:51

constant vigilance to try and bring context

11:53

and push back on some of the

11:55

things that they signed problematic on one.

11:58

Hand I am not anti zionist or know. On

12:00

the other hand, I'm to anti zionist. That's

12:03

the position that Matt Coal pounds from

12:05

upstate New York and himself into. Only

12:08

format the fault lines. Are.

12:11

Around age more than anything else. Seems

12:13

is a clear generational divide among American

12:15

Jews, at least in my family. My

12:19

is forty three and he's way more critical

12:21

of Israel, and his pants center a sentence

12:23

she says think Israel can basically do no

12:26

wrong, that he's way more sympathetic to Israel

12:28

than his kids' salaries and who he says

12:30

or at the far other end of the

12:32

spectrum, which he says all kind of came

12:34

to a head at Thanksgiving last year. We.

12:38

All knew. We were

12:40

going to discuss it does which to

12:42

know where larger semi we talk about

12:44

everything we talk loudly about a research

12:47

at some point was that you know

12:49

does anyone.discuss in Gaza. There. Are

12:51

about fifty people at the center, ranging

12:53

in age as from the mid nineties.

12:55

two young kids back felt pulled in

12:57

different accents trying what became an intense

12:59

night of arguing. And it's something that

13:01

cel keeping him up at night. When.

13:05

You know something that is happening but you

13:07

don't know what? You

13:09

can do about it and it feels like

13:11

it's roulette, especially since it feels like as

13:14

reflects on you personally. Or.

13:16

Or years of outcomes are complicit in it.

13:21

It's awful. Side. Well,

13:23

mad if you think about this long enough, you

13:25

can actually create peace in the Middle East. But. So

13:28

it's just it's I just have just agonizing

13:30

over because. Some Jewish

13:32

and like we agonize over six exits.

13:38

Are so we just her. From insincere far

13:40

as a gym exercise which is also an

13:42

older person to way. I

13:44

did. Yeah, Honey miss ever had secret

13:47

seventy one. And

13:49

she's retired says ascend to listen Denver

13:51

Ah. And she also describes herself as

13:53

mixed. Race and is ever stuck in

13:55

the middle somewhere to. Yes,

13:58

I'm now. the here in

14:00

have seen as after situation to me my

14:02

kids in israel. Or is supposed to

14:04

what the current regimes are doing As I

14:07

am. I have the sun in the

14:09

Us. His reaction is more Zionist

14:11

and mind is visibly Jewish and

14:13

so much more aware of anti

14:15

semitism in his. Daily and work

14:17

life than I am. She said she

14:19

works hard to keep lines of communication

14:21

open about Israel with her son and

14:24

to have her brother's. That's.

14:26

My. Third brother is the settler

14:28

in the West Bank. Israel

14:30

Palestine has not been open

14:32

for discussion between us for

14:35

more than thirty years ago.

14:38

So ever is navigating a lot with

14:40

and her family. That. She's pretty

14:42

clear about what she believes herself. She's

14:44

and involved and anti war activism and

14:46

protesting Israel for more than sixty years

14:48

now. From the time she was you

14:50

know, Mahaffy team getting into fights with

14:52

her Rabbi at her confirmation classes. Smoker.

14:54

It's so ever been a rabble

14:57

rouser from Auto. To

14:59

see has and see said she's seen

15:01

how things wax and wane. I'm

15:04

thinking about the first time

15:06

I took a very public

15:08

stance in Denver. I'm was

15:10

during the massacre in Lebanon

15:12

at Sovereign City. Less that was

15:14

in Nineteen Eighty Two and it was

15:16

just one of the many times that

15:18

ever would see tensions around Israel's actions,

15:21

space and right after October Seventh ever

15:23

said suddenly all of the arguments and

15:25

raw nerves of the past or right

15:27

at the surface again. You.

15:31

Know. It juice just go

15:33

from they just go to that's

15:35

geared place which is such. An

15:37

ugly blaze. You

15:40

know it's like you're limbic system,

15:42

just kitty and automatically. And

15:46

that's that's what makes it

15:48

so difficult. Despite.

15:53

The difficulty of a has kept trying

15:55

to push the conversation forward. Most recently,

15:57

she organized a dialogue series at her

15:59

school that people have different views to

16:01

start listening to each other. She.

16:03

Says it was he that at times

16:05

but so powerful so. Some.

16:07

Of it is an act will. Come.

16:11

Here the grumps expression. Pessimism.

16:14

Of the mind, optimism of the well, The

16:17

A That's where I'm at and that

16:19

the spears really not an option. And

16:22

since October seventh she said she's heartened

16:25

by seeing more she was costs of

16:27

minutes and the Us military support of

16:29

Israel. from everyday people to powerful politicians

16:31

like Chuck Schumer like. You. Know

16:33

before the war that would not have had. It

16:36

needed to happen, but only people were

16:39

talking about that were a Jewish voices

16:41

for peace and now lots of people

16:43

are talking about it. That that energizes

16:45

me. Seen. One

16:48

other people's is happy that the staff now

16:50

to wasn't always. Is. Will

16:53

all this. Good

16:56

idea. Of

16:59

an over something something for is a

17:01

will open you do We heard at

17:03

The Civil. yeah. I met him

17:05

at his house on his lovely little

17:07

back patio and l A because following

17:09

that powerful speech he had made, I

17:11

wanted to know if he had the secret.

17:14

To talking to other Jews about his beliefs. And

17:17

I was a little surprised to find

17:19

that he was actually somewhat new to

17:21

activism the first time he attended. And

17:23

if not now that was actually on

17:25

the in the spring of Twenty Twenty

17:27

Three. It was a workshop called Unpacking

17:29

Anti Semitism and Member. Driving home from

17:31

that events and ceiling almost euphoric,

17:33

I sell them, which is kind

17:35

of strange for an event about

17:37

anti semitism. He said he

17:40

felt like he'd finally found a community.

17:42

Is. Had been harper him to find me

17:44

to their point as a good exactly.

17:47

And part because he didn't totally know

17:49

what to look for growing up. had

17:51

a lot of Jewish friends and family

17:53

and celebrated Jewish holidays. but the biggest

17:55

part of his Judaism he said came

17:57

from his mother. Who. You

18:01

know when I was very when I

18:04

was very young instilled in me a

18:06

have a fear of anti semitism earnest

18:08

your particular on the Holocaust. Your.

18:10

We heard him talk during the rally up

18:12

a bit stuffy s example. And

18:16

Will wasn't sure what to do with this.

18:18

fear. and the one hand he didn't feel

18:20

like says mom serious were really mapping on

18:22

to his life as a relatively privileged white

18:24

kid going up in Santa Monica. But.

18:27

Then when he becomes young adults,

18:29

Donald Trump is elected and then

18:31

shortly after Charlotte, so happens. That

18:38

as and sort of gave me a new

18:41

awareness of myself as Jewish and most interesting

18:43

but that is a kind of corresponded to

18:45

the were been taught to think about yourself

18:47

and I was young. But. As well,

18:49

cats engaging with Judaism over the

18:51

years has prospective changed. He started

18:53

reading and writing about your identity

18:55

in our trying to find his

18:57

own adult relationship with this ancient

18:59

religion with thousands of years of

19:01

culture and practice that go far

19:03

beyond anti semitism. And.

19:05

When wells son was born. In Twenty

19:07

Twenty tale that wanted him to

19:09

have it at least some kind

19:12

of Jewish community growing up and

19:14

them. But I also. Wanted

19:17

him to have a Jewish community that

19:20

I could feel really excited about. Proud

19:22

of. Germans,

19:24

Have admitted it forces you to have really

19:26

been hard about which party you are you

19:28

wanna pass on and which stuff you really

19:30

need to get a handle on the for

19:33

real with I'm especially when he was you've

19:35

identity home. But. Liam series out

19:37

of Israel backwards. All this. As

19:40

well as learning more about judaism, Israel is

19:42

coming up quite a lot. And

19:45

it actually becomes a big point of

19:47

discussion between well and one of his

19:49

good friends because they're both really concerned

19:52

with a question of Jewish safety, but

19:54

that leads them to having kind of

19:56

opposite perspectives. On Israel for a similar

19:59

with it. Yeah, mood

20:01

friend thinks that as highly

20:03

militarized Israel is necessary as

20:05

a safeguard against global anti

20:08

semitism. And. Will is

20:10

starting to believe the opposite that the

20:12

actions of the Israeli government. Are.

20:14

Directly making the world less safe

20:17

for jews everywhere. And

20:19

then October seventh happens. And then of

20:21

course is a cataclysm he had. And.

20:24

What these two friends had been talking about,

20:26

the someone distantly was now playing out in

20:28

real time and Will said his friend was

20:30

getting increasingly upset about the anti semitism that

20:33

he was starting to see on social media

20:35

and in the news. And

20:37

the I was also their brother for

20:39

that wasn't for most of my mind.

20:42

I was more thinking about sisters Israel

20:44

was already doing is dropping bombs on

20:46

Gaza. Three.

20:48

October seventh I measure to be seen as of

20:51

what you do them right to make their point.

20:53

right? And the more time

20:55

passes after October Seventh, the more

20:57

Israel's response escalates, which makes well

20:59

even more confident that he needs

21:02

to fight against Israel's treatment of

21:04

Palestinians. I'm. Not gonna

21:06

except actual oppression of another

21:08

group of people in the

21:11

name of some hypothetical future

21:13

security for are people. So.

21:18

Gene well leans into this new role

21:21

for him of being an activist and

21:23

speaking out against Israel and when we

21:25

come back for going to talk about

21:27

how that role set among and sometimes

21:30

tortured history of American Jewish critics of

21:32

the Jewish State. Or

21:34

it. Stay. With us. Support.

21:41

For Npr and following message come

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million and one ways you can opt

23:06

outside. Gene.

23:11

We're. Cold sweats, So.

23:13

He before the bridge we were

23:15

talking about these tents, painful divisions

23:17

that are coming to the surface

23:19

and Jewish communities over question of

23:21

Israel part of eat. This is

23:23

a brand new right? so I'm

23:25

curious what. Do. We know

23:27

where these device begin. The

23:30

truth of it is said as early as

23:33

Us nationalism was on the scene and American

23:35

to slice. So we're questions about

23:37

the role that.my play an American

23:39

tourist like us. It is filled

23:41

with that were. That

23:44

Islam and named Marjorie sounds of a

23:46

professor of history of That's In College

23:48

I just wrote a book as Coming

23:50

Out and may com threshold as Descent

23:53

a. History of American Jews Critics of

23:55

sinus them for like. The. Perfect person,

23:57

Top two and a book is that he will

23:59

you. I know that I

24:01

have to read the press release email

24:04

she throws. Anyway, I wanted to get

24:06

a scope of how these discussions have

24:08

played out over time, so I asked

24:10

Marjorie how common it was for American

24:12

Jews to be critical. Of Israel

24:14

throughout history also very marginal.

24:18

Population. A very marginal number of

24:20

Americans use, especially in the early twentieth

24:22

century, and obviously especially in the mid

24:24

twentieth century right after the Holocaust. There

24:26

have always been vocal anti zionist jews,

24:29

she said. But. They haven't had

24:31

a really prominent voice and mainstream

24:33

judaism and so more recently which

24:35

is one of the reasons why

24:37

she says every generation of shoes

24:39

that speaks out against Israel thinks.

24:41

It's the first is

24:43

Whoa! Okay, A lower

24:45

than a good as it is but

24:47

because you just use the phrase a

24:50

designer's of like now. Very good home

24:52

for different definitions of the way to

24:54

for people use the term Zionism and

24:56

aged oil of them really really differently.

24:58

I good point I'm. So

25:00

in her book, Marjorie really talks

25:02

about three different groups: scientists: anti

25:05

Zionists and non Zionists. So Zionists

25:07

super broadly are people who believe

25:09

in the need for a Jewish

25:11

nation state in the land of

25:14

Israel. Non scientists believe

25:16

that Israel is an important cultural and religious

25:18

center for Jews, but that it doesn't need

25:20

to be a country. And

25:23

and has I lists are specifically against

25:25

the idea of a Jewish nation States.

25:28

And as you just heard her say, those last

25:30

two groups have always been fairly. Small. okay

25:33

so weird of the history of

25:35

a is high in non zionist

25:37

jews Thoughts: doom internet estates. For.

25:40

And her buck Marjorie really sets the

25:42

story. And eighteen eighty size, that something

25:44

called the Pittsburgh. Platform of his for

25:46

Platform was one of the central

25:48

platforms to American Reform Judaism, which

25:50

has won the nomination. With an American

25:52

Judaism and it was an anti national platform.

25:55

That really saw American Jewish people hate as

25:57

grounded in religious life and other words they

25:59

were argue. Judaism is a religion, not

26:01

a race or any son. And

26:03

that idea is and championed by the scruple.

26:06

The American Council for Judaism and they're one

26:08

of the groups in the Us has consistently

26:10

vocally critical of the idea of fine Isn't.

26:13

Marjorie. Says this is all happening in

26:15

the early twentieth century and the context of

26:17

seen a phobia and Jim crow and state

26:20

sanctioned anti semitism. A So this is. You

26:23

know up a perilous time and this

26:25

is a group of relatively elite choose

26:28

who rejected Zionism as it was emerging

26:30

as so central to Americans are slice

26:32

because they felt that it would make

26:34

to is vulnerable to accusations of duel

26:37

loyalty. Which has been a longstanding

26:39

yes of anti semitic accusation that Jews

26:41

aren't loyal to the United States. So.

26:44

Actually, assimilation was a huge

26:46

factor that shaped a lot

26:48

of anti Zionist.amongst American Jewish

26:50

communities. A. Lot of jews wanted

26:52

to really sake a our claim and whiteness.

26:55

And. They thought that focusing on Israel

26:57

would be counterproductive. It may as

26:59

an artery rights. Serve. As

27:01

a racialized enforce separating them as

27:04

a people and preventing them. From.

27:06

The security of full integration. It

27:08

might even make them. Seem.

27:11

Gasp More Middle Eastern. So

27:15

obviously we've done a lot of episodes

27:17

work regression immigrant populations in the way

27:20

people for their identities and is comes

27:22

of all the time right leaning. It's

27:24

who American is as. Like.

27:26

An avenue into whiteness. Okay

27:29

so today's seems like the left your shoes are the

27:31

most likely to be a sideline is but we're marjorie

27:33

thing is. That was kind

27:35

of. Were versed in the early nineteen

27:38

hundreds. It was like a respectability thing

27:40

of have a more small see conservative

27:42

impulse. Doesn't yell. Meanwhile, the

27:44

Jews who were talking About As Your Seat

27:47

in the early nineteen Hundreds were not generally

27:49

as concerned with funding and a lot of

27:51

the more like. So we're not the same

27:53

as white christian Americans, and we. Don't

27:56

want to be fascinated. Not

27:58

mind you, this is so decades. For the

28:00

State of Israel would actually be created self

28:02

Among Zionists, there was a diversity of ideas

28:05

about what that state could look like. Would

28:07

people speak Hebrew? Or yes, Would it be

28:09

in the Middle Eastern Europe, where the Americas.

28:12

All. The dreaming and debating and

28:14

politicking around this was still somewhat

28:17

hypothetical. Analyses. Right? And of course

28:19

use of them with a wifi different is

28:21

the early maybe would result. Really believe this

28:23

is all obviously. Before. The

28:26

Holocaust. Cap. And. After

28:28

the Holocaust, the conversation totally

28:30

changes. Almost. All

28:33

organizations. Really

28:37

mute said criticism and it isn't the right

28:39

word. I just think they have to see

28:41

everything through. The lens of third

28:43

tremendous destruction and losses of the

28:46

Holocaust and so many anti zionist

28:48

individuals and organizations tend to move

28:50

toward non zionism and and embrace

28:53

of support for Israel as a

28:55

safe haven for jews in a

28:57

world that has grown credibly perilous

29:00

for them. Okay,

29:02

So. How does it change the landscape?

29:04

Forward to the eighties I little. While.

29:07

And makes is relatively small group

29:09

of vocal anti Zionist jews even

29:12

smaller because Marjorie says there's this

29:14

widespread belief. Sit. In the face

29:16

of persecution and oppression and attempted

29:18

genocide and have prostrate, the Jewish

29:20

unity is paramount and that we

29:22

have to. We The American Jewish

29:24

community must appear to be of

29:26

one mind in order to be

29:28

strong in order to fight our

29:30

enemies. Says that along the way there

29:32

are always dissenters people who are thanks. Hold

29:34

on as it's really how we want to

29:37

be doing things as unity really going to

29:39

make us safer. But. The

29:41

louder and more powerful voices just. Keep.

29:44

Pounding. The Unity Hammer. So

29:46

what does that look like in practice and

29:48

say they kept pounding the hammer like. How

29:51

did this Mandy? Of. Unity.

29:55

Get in forced. Okay,

29:58

here's an example. There

30:00

was this journalist named William Zuckerman and

30:02

from Nineteen Forty Eight to and Nineteen

30:04

Sixty One, he published a newsletter out

30:07

of New York City called the Jewish

30:09

Me As Letter. So when for we

30:11

spend a lot of time in the name

30:13

of assistance. It was brilliant. And

30:17

that newsletter published some really critical perfect

30:19

as on Israel. About that Come In

30:21

at one point writes about how for

30:23

example Arabs are human beings who have

30:25

a moral right to the land where

30:27

their ancestors have left for more than

30:29

a thousand years and he says is

30:31

an Msf that Jews would treat them

30:33

like inanimate objects to contest the moved

30:35

around at well. Some

30:38

people are really threatened by them. And they

30:40

try to shut the news or

30:42

done but teen. I think this is

30:45

really important. Note: Like this newsletter is

30:47

never all that huge. Only

30:49

ever has a few thousand

30:51

subscribers total. But

30:53

Marjorie said that even so, Williams

30:56

Ackerman is subject to some very

30:58

real consequences. He

31:01

gets censored by way of

31:03

having funding removed and losing

31:05

positions in Jewish journals. It

31:07

as an English speaking, so

31:10

I'm when. Israeli diplomat start

31:12

corresponding. They would say things

31:14

like he's confusing. American Jews

31:17

doesn't prioritize Israel. This is throwing

31:19

the safety of Americans use Answer. Is

31:21

always said placing them and unsafe conditions by

31:24

virtue of questioning his roles role in American

31:26

Jewish life. So the Jewish newsletter

31:28

as over by Nineteen Sixty One. And.

31:31

For a time it's looking like these conversations are going to

31:33

quiet down a little. But. By the

31:35

sixties were media and the civil rights movement

31:37

an adult sixties, the anti war movement as

31:39

about start ramping up as well. So

31:42

obviously don't have time to odyssey ball

31:44

around the country who would have out

31:46

protesters the questioning the status quo they're

31:48

pushing back on the governmental, the military

31:50

and across the world obviously do with

31:52

all these anti global is overly james

31:54

think. Exactly. And Jews

31:56

like everyone else are trying to process

31:58

it's going on and where they stand

32:01

and whether to the involved. Son.

32:03

A book Marjorie said she tried to

32:05

chronicle has i aneurysm and anti Zionism

32:07

were influenced by civil rights and anti

32:09

war activists. Is because I think

32:11

that among those leaders especially Black

32:13

and Arab Americans, we see some

32:15

of the first. Lessons and

32:17

what's Happening And Palestine and then

32:19

Israel. And when American Jews join

32:21

the Civil Rights movement, the Antiwar

32:24

movement, other movements in the fifties,

32:26

sixties and seventies, they start learning

32:28

about this for the some of

32:30

them for the first time. Now

32:32

as we the salish the stuff

32:34

isn't new for everyone. So for

32:36

some Jewish people concerned for Palestinian

32:38

rights went way back on. A

32:40

lot of the critics who my

32:42

talk about are concerned about the

32:44

native population starting early in the

32:46

forties and fifties. So how can

32:48

a people that is the Jewish

32:50

people who were made refugees by

32:52

the holocaust create another population. Refugees

32:54

in but we now know of

32:56

his post indians and by the.

32:58

Nineteen seventies. It's pretty hard to ignore

33:00

those questions. This is no longer theoretical.

33:02

this is real and it's picking up

33:05

momentum. People. Are talking about it and

33:07

action about our. Groups.

33:11

Like Prayer and the New Jewish as

33:13

under a form to try to create

33:15

space for Jews to have a wider

33:17

set of beliefs or and Israel that

33:19

many of the people pushing to open

33:22

up that space face pretty intense opposition.

33:25

I think one of the clearest example

33:27

is the story of this professor name's

33:30

Marty Black. And for

33:32

two years and nineteen Seventy Two and

33:34

Nineteen Seventy three, he taught a course

33:36

at Tufts Experimental School that was a

33:39

history of Americans support for thy aneurysm.

33:41

And he. Was

33:44

very clear that he wanted to teach

33:46

arms and anti Zionism was not equal

33:48

to anti semitism. So he said

33:50

in his class. Both

33:53

sinus an anti Zionists. I

33:56

am already nervous about where the

33:59

who don't. As

34:01

he said base. In. The middle of

34:03

his. Semester in March of Seventy

34:05

Three There were members of the Jewish

34:07

Defence League who disrupted his class, marched

34:10

into his class, handed out a flyer,

34:13

On said said something as a called

34:15

it an anti Jewish outrage. And

34:17

they started making demands that tough shut

34:19

down the class. From there, the process

34:22

got involved. First, it's local Jewish papers

34:24

and Boston and it's everywhere. And

34:26

people are arguing pretty strongly that the

34:28

class was dangerous for American Jewry. Some

34:30

of the critics of this class were

34:32

operating in bad faith of course, but

34:34

you also see Sands of At That

34:37

are really really cynical and ugly flats

34:39

grandfather had died in a Nazi. Or

34:41

labor camp and somebody calls prank

34:43

calls him one night during all

34:45

of this controversy and said that

34:47

his parents should not have been

34:49

saved. And

34:53

the debate has kept her of thing

34:55

outward. The new Sabres

34:57

keep leveling up to Boston Jewish

34:59

community put together funds to teach

35:01

a counter course plat keeps getting

35:03

threats. And. Marjorie says

35:05

it actually looks a lot like what we're seeing

35:08

have an uncertain college campuses today. Where.

35:10

Any criticism of Zionism, even just

35:12

the invocation of the history of

35:15

Palestine and Palestinians, is seen as

35:17

dangerous to American Jewish students or

35:19

to American to a slice. Marjorie

35:24

says. one of the big differences today,

35:26

though, is that the facade of Unity

35:28

has been shattered beyond repair. And

35:31

that's been happening for a while, but it's

35:33

undeniable right now. She. Pointed to

35:35

the protests that are happening and sport of thousands.

35:37

I mean, they're They're so incredibly

35:39

powerful. invisible. That

35:42

I think any. Attempt

35:46

to maintain. This

35:49

idea of a Jewish unity is

35:51

paramount has already been crumbling for

35:53

quite awhile, and these. Post.

35:56

October Seven Seas. I'm surprised

35:58

that are happening in our

36:00

own time. In

36:03

the United States, among American Jews, especially

36:05

for not only among young Americans, use.

36:08

Really accent. They make us focus on

36:11

the fact that I unity just isn't

36:13

possible anymore. That's.

36:17

Some. Of what we heard

36:19

from People Oil in this episode, right

36:21

at the be are feeling the effects

36:23

of bet right now like among a

36:26

loved ones you know in their group

36:28

chats in a synagogues. Befittingly okay. Not

36:30

only is there not unity in a

36:33

lot of cases, it sounds like this.

36:35

I even the possibility of communication. Yeah.

36:39

Which. Is. Really weird

36:41

because. The

36:44

Jews like we we actually. Love,

36:47

arguing and discuss. Have been debating.

36:49

and that's not just a stereotype

36:51

like this is to this sense

36:53

is iterative. It's literally based on

36:55

arguing and disagreeing. That. This

36:58

seems to me at these to be

37:00

the one topic. That we can't

37:02

have productive arguments That. Asked

37:04

Marjorie, but she thought about that. So.

37:07

I certainly agree. As an astute

37:09

observation, it's I'm living it almost

37:11

every day am and I, in

37:13

one way or another. It's sort

37:15

of some. It's

37:18

a cloud that following us all around. I

37:21

think what a what I try to

37:23

convey in the book is the incredibly

37:26

high stakes of this debate historically and

37:28

in contemporary American life. That's.

37:31

Because for many people. The. Steaks

37:33

have almost always centered around

37:35

notions of Jewish safety and

37:37

survival. Some. Programs To the

37:39

Holocaust A always begin with a number

37:42

of people I knew when I was

37:44

young who had numbers on their arm.

37:46

because when I was growing up and

37:48

my Synagogue in Pennsylvania up there must

37:50

have been dozens of people I knew

37:52

who were survivors of the Holocaust who

37:54

had been in a chance to live

37:56

to tell about it. Who you know

37:58

they're there. Their

38:01

narrative they're brave, courageous narratives were

38:03

sort of the punctuation marks of

38:05

my American Jewish place. And.

38:08

I think people my age. And

38:10

Fifty three. And.

38:13

People older and younger. Feel

38:16

keenly the loss of

38:18

that memory and that.

38:21

Very. I'm the success

38:23

of. This

38:26

mobilization around Israel this one

38:28

brand Us American Zionism. Has

38:31

been that it equates. American Jews, Safety

38:33

with this brand and I would

38:35

never. Challenge the

38:37

central city of holocaust memory in American

38:39

Jewish place. I think those of us

38:42

who are scientists want see it. Broadens,

38:46

applied, stretched,

38:50

To think about this idea and I'm some moved

38:52

when young activists used to say they have never

38:54

again for anyone. Asked

38:57

Marjorie what it's like to be someone who

38:59

feels so deeply the loss of holocaust memory

39:01

are also being in this minority of jews

39:04

who are openly critical of Israel. Painful

39:06

as and painful and I

39:08

I think we're were. Reaping

39:13

what we so good that is to say.

39:15

We set off these conversations for so long

39:17

said in the face of what's happening right

39:20

now. It's. Very

39:22

painful to not be able to talk

39:24

about what Israel's perpetrating Ah, And.

39:26

Gaza. It's

39:29

it's. very, It's very painful. And.

39:31

Yeah, I was kind of ready to and at

39:33

their because I'm a cynic and pessimist and pain

39:35

as well as. That is very much

39:37

of the cougars. Yes, But.

39:41

Marjorie. Said it was important to think about

39:43

some of the positive things that this pain as

39:45

actually producing. Says it okay if I tell you

39:47

the two most exciting part circuit. One these as

39:49

it she said is the coalition building

39:51

that's coming out about this because. A

39:54

lot of the people I write about, especially

39:56

in the second half of the twentieth century

39:58

their anti. Zionism was. Mean or Non

40:01

Zionism as a means to the

40:03

coalition's with Black Americans, Arab Americans,

40:05

Justinian, the Israeli last and that

40:07

opens doors rather than close the

40:09

some. That's the first part that

40:11

really excites me. this building of

40:13

coalition see things make me feel

40:15

hope. And the second thing

40:18

is that having more space for a

40:20

diversity of opinions as actually bringing more

40:22

people into Judaism. And

40:25

I think that a lot of these

40:27

young jews and she was of all

40:29

ages were involved in his protest movements

40:31

are really doing quite amazing work making

40:33

American Jewish life more inclusive and bringing

40:35

in people who are entirely apart you

40:37

know, really turned off. By the American

40:40

Jewish community put off by it, were

40:42

being pulled in through protests. And

40:44

at all beings me that to well.

40:47

That because he's one of those people who forces of

40:49

the judaism. Same. Stronger.

40:52

Crew protests. Exactly.

40:55

And in fact, it was actually through

40:57

his processing that he was able to

41:00

reignite a conversation with his mom about

41:02

Judaism Etsu protesting that was able to

41:04

gain a community and it's They're protesting

41:06

that he started to feel his Judaism

41:08

take shape and his life not as

41:10

a space of fear or pain, but

41:13

one of justice and truth telling. In

41:16

other words, Zedek Justice in Hebrew is

41:18

I'm sensing that managers people in America

41:20

grow up with. I mean, this is

41:23

a Jewish value. It's a very ancient

41:25

Jewish value and. I

41:28

would love to see a

41:30

Jewish community a Jewish future

41:32

in which are ancient values

41:34

are applied to the situation

41:36

in which. Our

41:39

fellow Jews are oppressing another group

41:41

of people. That to me is

41:43

really. The

41:46

on the only. The

41:48

only thing that really gives me hope right now

41:51

is to amaze to is is is that kind

41:53

of isn't. Closer. That when he

41:55

had a cat the center as as the universe

41:57

sifted. Suddenly. He was in charge of

41:59

something that was my. My precious to him that

42:01

his own life. But. It also

42:03

changed how he felt it up all children.

42:06

Particularly. As he watched the news out

42:08

of Gaza. Heard

42:10

from It is escape the awareness that.

42:14

He oh all those sort heard just

42:16

as beautiful and amazing as my and

42:18

my kid and that allows me to

42:20

examine my life and a new way.

42:27

And as you're liable or to a stake in

42:29

the future. and anyway, I mean speaking of he

42:31

owed of. Creating a Jewish

42:33

as for the future on. I

42:37

feel like a custodian of the

42:39

Jewish tradition in a way that

42:41

I didn't feel before. I

42:45

also want to remake it. And

42:48

make it into something. That I consoled, proud of

42:50

and proud of as down tonight I think.

42:53

I do believe that that business users will

42:55

prevail in the. And. I

43:06

saw that is also profile was on

43:08

instagram and come to our code which

43:10

is the most more you bring ours

43:13

is codes which of empty or not

43:15

or if it's com for the parker

43:17

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