0:00

Hi , this is Jeremy . Hi , this is Nick

0:02

. This is Cloud of Witnesses Journey

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with the Saints .

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We hope you enjoy this episode On

0:08

the life of Saint Theodora the Empress

0:10

.

0:12

Come Theodora . Why the

0:14

sad face ? The people want

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to see their new empress . Maybe

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you aren't aware of this , but I've got on

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to your icon-worshiping

0:26

practices .

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What .

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From this day forth , I

0:34

forbid you to practice your idolatry

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. My servants are

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burning your icons as we speak

0:41

.

0:44

Hello and welcome to Cloud

0:46

of Witnesses' Journey with the Saints

0:48

a dynamic full cast

0:51

retelling of the lives of the Saints

0:53

.

0:56

Our story begins in a tumultuous

0:58

time in the church . I

1:00

know the church . It

1:03

is the 9th century , and though the church

1:06

has enjoyed hundreds and hundreds of years

1:08

as a united body , the issue

1:10

of iconography became a hotly debated

1:12

topic . The year

1:14

is 813 AD , and

1:17

Emperor Leo V has called a public

1:19

assembly where thousands of his supporters

1:21

gather to celebrate Leo's announcements

1:24

.

1:26

For too long has the Empire

1:29

tolerated the

1:31

idolatrous , God-hating

1:33

practice of the

1:35

use of graven images . Today

1:41

, people of the Empire , I

1:43

declare the use of icons to

1:45

be an act against the Empire

1:47

itself , an act against

1:49

the faith and an act

1:51

against God himself .

1:56

You're kidding .

1:58

Today , if you destroy an icon

2:00

, you make God happy

2:03

, and if you turn in

2:05

an iconophile to

2:08

the authorities , you make

2:10

this Empire stronger

2:12

.

2:21

In her 20th year , one

2:23

year after the death of Emperor

2:25

Leo V . Theodora

2:27

, a remarkable beauty , had

2:29

distinguished herself in piety and learning

2:32

, such that it was not mere

2:34

rumor among the royal court that Ifrosini

2:36

had her eye on Theodora as a

2:38

prospective bride for her son , ruler

2:40

.

2:44

What is your name ? Daughter of the Empire

2:47

.

2:48

Theodora Grand Empress .

2:51

Youphrosini is my name by birth

2:53

. Please forgive

2:55

me for startling you from your prayers

2:57

. I only ask that

2:59

you one add my

3:01

son to your prayers and

3:04

two Theodora

3:06

. Be more careful

3:08

. Some things are too

3:10

precious to risk in open

3:13

places .

3:15

Thank you . Thank you , Grand

3:17

Empress .

3:20

Yes , yes , thank you for delivering

3:22

the message . Lord

3:25

, have mercy , theodora

3:27

, theodora , come quickly . You

3:30

will not believe this . My child , what

3:32

is it , mother ? Sit down

3:35

, sit down , you're

3:37

to meet , to meet .

3:40

To meet who Mother tell me

3:42

.

3:44

You're to meet the Emperor himself

3:46

. You have been summoned to the royal

3:48

palace . A royal messenger

3:51

left here after delivering the

3:53

message just a few minutes ago

3:55

.

3:57

But why would I go to meet the Emperor

3:59

? Did I do something wrong

4:02

?

4:02

Theodora could not help but let fear

4:04

enter her mind that perhaps her

4:06

icons had been discovered .

4:08

She thought to run back to her room in that moment

4:11

. But she knew her icons were safe under her

4:13

bed . She had prayed with them not an hour

4:15

before .

4:17

Ask yourself instead , why

4:20

would the Emperor ask to meet you

4:22

? Think about it , my beautiful

4:25

daughter . The handsome

4:27

Emperor remains unmarried

4:30

. But , mother , I know you'll

4:32

need a new dress .

4:34

No , mother , he's . He's

4:36

not much older than you . He's

4:38

an iconic last . I

4:40

refuse to marry him .

4:43

But , as Garza willed

4:45

, the young and beautiful Theodora

4:48

in fact did win the hearts

4:50

of Theophilus , and soon

4:52

they were married .

4:56

Come Theodora ? Why the sad

4:58

face ? The people want to

5:00

see their new empress .

5:05

To think I would be married in a barren

5:07

church , devoid

5:10

of the face of Christ and his saints

5:12

.

5:17

Theodora , you know

5:19

that I love you . Maybe

5:22

you aren't aware of this , but I've got on

5:24

to your icon worshipping

5:27

practices .

5:28

What .

5:30

Look at all these people . They

5:33

look to us , to you , as

5:35

their example . Don't

5:37

tear this empire apart with your dissident

5:40

beliefs . From

5:42

this day forth , I

5:45

forbid you to practice your idolatry

5:48

. My servants are

5:50

burning your icons as we speak .

5:54

What , what in the world Theophilus

5:57

? How could you ?

6:00

How could I , theodora

6:02

, I could have sent you to your

6:05

execution with such a discovery ? Take

6:08

this as a warning From

6:10

this day forth , you

6:12

will practice the true religion

6:15

of the Eastern Roman Empire .

6:20

My god go on .

6:23

A beautiful couple for a beautiful

6:25

empire . Oh , euphrostinie , what

6:28

a choice you've made in Theodora .

6:30

Indeed , she is beautiful inside

6:32

and out . I believe

6:34

that God shall work wonders through her

6:36

.

6:39

As the years went by , Theodora raised

6:42

seven beautiful children for Theophilus

6:44

. With Euphrostinie's

6:47

help , Theodora was able to raise

6:49

her children in true piety , allowing

6:51

them to pray and see the face of their

6:53

Savior and all his saints , but

6:55

only in complete secrecy .

6:58

Come children . We are going to visit Grandma

7:00

Euphrostinie . Mama , are

7:02

we going to play with the beautiful dolls ?

7:05

These beautiful dolls were in

7:07

fact icons .

7:19

Theophilus , the ruler king

7:22

. What kind of tidings does

7:24

he bring ? They call

7:26

him the ruler of this land , but

7:29

now he's drunk and cannot stand

7:31

.

7:35

Theophilus , my friend , it's

7:38

too true . Can you stand of those two legs

7:40

?

7:42

Take it back , you slobbering

7:44

dog .

7:45

Dendaris sing us another song

7:48

All right then

7:50

, here's another one

7:52

.

7:52

My lord Theophilus

7:56

, the empire's strong

7:58

, and so I'll sing you

8:00

a new song . You

8:03

think your walls are tall , and

8:05

true , but an enemy

8:07

lurks within your crew .

8:20

Stop the music . What

8:27

did you say , you creepy little man

8:29

?

8:30

Uh , my lord , I

8:33

only make jest of what I see

8:35

.

8:36

Theophilus . My friend , you only jokes . I'll

8:40

make a jest out of him .

8:43

Help , help , I'll

8:45

explain . Let me go Then

8:48

speak true . Dendera

8:54

speaks what . Dendera sees

8:57

An empress

8:59

with icons made from paint and trees

9:01

what .

9:04

Prove it , you little liar .

9:07

I-I will , i-i can you

9:10

see , as I walked within

9:13

your palace , a fly . I

9:15

found within your chalice , your

9:17

wife and family . Oh so pretty . I

9:20

saw with icons . Oh so petty

9:22

.

9:23

An icon from the adulterers .

9:26

We're in , not friends .

9:29

I'll take care of this in the morning .

9:41

Brother Euphulsini , why

9:43

have we all been brought here today ?

9:46

I-I'm not sure . Theodora , I'm

9:48

not sure .

9:51

My dear subjects . I

9:53

have brought you all here as

9:55

witnesses , witnesses

9:57

to a true horror and act

9:59

of blasphemy .

10:02

This doesn't sound good .

10:06

This icon , this

10:08

idol , was found

10:11

within my walls .

10:13

Theodora , what are we to do ? I-i-i

10:17

don't know . I just hope the children

10:19

don't get dragged into this .

10:22

And , what's worse , my

10:26

own wife , Theodora

10:29

, was

10:31

framed by our court

10:34

jester Vendee .

10:36

Oh , my goodness , what .

10:38

Oh , dear God , thank you

10:40

, god the awfuless , has

10:42

spared us .

10:44

Guards , this jester

10:47

has played his last act . Take

10:50

him away and know that this man

10:52

is never allowed within the walls

10:54

of Constantinople again .

10:56

Huh , what ? No , not

10:58

I , not I Dendaris , let

11:01

go of me . I am Dendaris

11:03

, the jester of the Royal Court .

11:13

The awfuless . I-i

11:16

wanted to thank you for all that .

11:18

Don't speak of this any

11:21

more . You know

11:23

that I forbid you , Don't

11:26

make me how to be a saint . Next

11:28

time I may not be

11:30

so merciful , nor may I

11:33

be able to find such an alibi

11:35

for you .

11:37

By the providence of God . Shortly

11:40

after this event , the awfuless fell

11:42

ill and sometime soon later

11:44

had died .

11:46

Leaving the empire in the hands of the

11:48

now-emperor , the Adora . As

11:53

my first act as Empress , I

11:55

restore for the empire the

11:57

statement of the Christian Church

11:59

as expounded in the

12:01

Seventh and Great Council not

12:04

many years ago at Nicaea , that

12:06

the use of Christian images is

12:09

good and right and a part

12:11

of the true Orthodox practice

12:13

.

12:16

Saint Empress , theodora , great

12:18

to God for us .

12:28

Wow , nick , what an episode huh .

12:30

Another amazing story .

12:32

Yeah , the story of Saint

12:34

Theodora the Empress , who really

12:36

, in many ways , is the person

12:39

that God used to preserve

12:41

the use of icons throughout

12:44

his church right , the entire empire at the time

12:46

.

12:46

Yeah , it's really interesting because

12:49

the Seventh Ecumenical Council

12:51

is actually years before and had already

12:54

ratified and said that this

12:56

is a legitimate practice and teaching

12:58

of the church , but still

13:00

, as it happened many times in history

13:02

, the heresy , the malpractice

13:05

, etc .

13:05

Continued even after the

13:08

official statement was given

13:10

Right right , which is kind

13:12

of echoes , and those

13:14

of you listening right now you can go back and listen . We have

13:17

an episode , a two-part episode actually

13:19

. The First I Came in a Council . The same

13:21

thing happened there , right . The

13:23

First I Came in a Council decried

13:26

and labeled as

13:28

heresy the Arian teachings

13:30

. Arianism continued

13:32

to flourish for the next 40

13:36

, 60 years or so until the second

13:38

ecumenical council finally

13:41

really put its foot down on it , if you

13:43

will . So it's interesting how the

13:45

way the councils work and

13:48

, nick , this really speaks to Orthodoxy , doesn't it ? The

13:50

conciliar method , as opposed to in

13:52

the West . It's like okay , well , they just

13:54

name a decree and

13:57

kind of like , on that day or now , this is

13:59

official . In

14:01

Orthodoxy , even the councils have

14:03

to be accepted by the church as a whole . Right

14:06

, it takes time . As

14:08

I'm sure you know , there are plenty of councils that

14:10

have claimed to be ecumenical

14:12

in a certain sense

14:14

but haven't been accepted more broadly

14:16

, and it's like history

14:18

tells the story as opposed

14:21

to the people that are

14:23

in it right at the moment

14:25

, so to speak . So it is . It's a

14:27

fascinating event in

14:29

history and that God would use

14:31

a faithful woman

14:33

and her family really

14:35

to carry on and

14:37

to preserve this

14:40

practice of the church . I just find

14:42

this is remarkable and such a gift

14:45

to the life of saints

14:48

around the church .

14:50

Yeah , it's very interesting to hear that they

14:52

were called the beautiful dolls by

14:54

her and her family as kind of a code name

14:56

for the icons , and the

14:58

fact that in one

15:01

sense I feel like as an Orthodox

15:03

Christian we can take for granted

15:05

the fact that we see the face of

15:07

Christ and that we see the face of the saints

15:09

, et cetera . For

15:11

us it's very integral . But it's

15:14

kind of scary to think , at

15:16

least as an Orthodox Christian , to think that without

15:19

that you don't see the face of Christ

15:21

right and in one sense he becomes

15:24

yet this ethereal

15:27

being who never actually

15:29

became incarnate . Almost , and I think

15:31

that's the point at least one of

15:33

the points of iconography is that , no

15:35

, he did come in the flesh and

15:38

that means that we can and should depict

15:41

him for people to be seen , for

15:43

him to be seen by people , I mean 100%

15:46

.

15:47

You nailed it that

15:49

is so important to understand

15:51

. I hope people don't

15:53

get tired of hearing it , but I'm

15:56

a former Protestant and I know for

15:58

a fact now as an Orthodox Christian

16:00

, looking back on the time

16:02

when I was Protestant . You're absolutely

16:05

right . The fact that Christ is not

16:07

seen in that

16:10

sense he's not depicted . The cross

16:12

that would be in any church , I would amen

16:14

. The cross that I would see in

16:16

a Protestant church every Sunday

16:18

was an empty cross . They actually provided

16:21

themselves in it being an empty

16:23

cross because they were . You

16:25

know they're Protestants or anti-Catholic

16:27

, and Catholics , as we all know , have

16:29

crucifixes shows Christ on

16:31

the cross , and so you have

16:34

all these empty crosses in Protestantism

16:36

. And it really does , nick . It becomes

16:38

this well , god is up here

16:40

. Right , faith in Christ

16:43

is up here . Yeah , sure , maybe it's here

16:45

, but it's not in a

16:47

person , right , it's not

16:49

in the incarnation of God

16:52

. Yes , theologically

16:54

they believe that , of course , but in

16:56

practice , like you said , you're not looking into

16:58

the eyes of Christ , right , you're

17:00

not seeing . And then I think , the extension

17:03

of that , nick I want to get your thoughts on this by

17:05

extension , then it's harder to see your

17:08

brother and your sister as

17:10

an icon as well . Right yeah

17:13

, Same sense , because we're creating the image

17:15

of God and I think there's even that

17:17

disconnect Interesting , just healthy use

17:19

of icons .

17:21

It's true , there's more of an emphasis on

17:23

the incarnational and

17:25

resurrection aspect , as opposed

17:27

to only the sacrificial

17:30

right . There's not so much an emphasis in

17:32

the Orthodox Church of the cross and the sacrifice

17:34

in that sense , but rather that holistic

17:37

experience of God

17:40

coming to save the entire

17:43

aspect of the person , not just simply to pay

17:45

a debt to an

17:48

angry father .

17:51

Yeah , 100% , it's

17:53

such a beautiful thing . Our

17:55

listeners probably know at this stage that

17:58

today is the

18:01

vindication of Orthodoxy

18:03

. Right , it's a beautiful time in

18:05

the church where we remember

18:07

this . Really , this event

18:09

, it's granted it's

18:11

focused on the Seventh Decumenical Council

18:13

, but , as

18:15

you already pointed out , nick , what

18:17

St Theodore of the Empress did was

18:19

she preserved

18:22

what was already , you know

18:24

, instantiated in the 7th

18:26

Dictum of Coalsel , and so we

18:29

really celebrate her as

18:31

well . And it's kind of interesting Like I'm kind of I

18:33

was thinking from a liturgical perspective she's

18:36

not mentioned by name today , at

18:39

least to my knowledge . Did I ? Did I miss ?

18:40

that Do you know anything about ? In Matton's ? She's

18:43

commemorated , but she also has she also

18:45

has her own separate feast day in February

18:47

. So right , but 311th I believe

18:49

.

18:49

Yeah , I just wasn't sure if she was actually

18:51

mentioned by name . That's great , I've heard

18:54

that . Yeah so yeah , it's a really

18:57

beautiful thing and to see from

18:59

this story , god willing , you

19:01

got to see her bravery , right

19:03

, and what it took for her because

19:05

, you're right , she had to use even code names

19:07

. She was still teaching her children

19:10

about these things . You

19:12

know her husband , who's the literally

19:14

the ruler of the free world

19:16

at the time . Truly

19:20

, truly amazing right , just an actual life

19:23

of faith lived out . So

19:25

, yeah , we really hope that you enjoyed this

19:27

episode and this brief discussion

19:30

. Regarding Saint Theodora , nick

19:32

, where can people find us on

19:35

the web ?

19:36

Yeah , you can find us anywhere Podcasts

19:38

can be heard , whether that's Google podcast

19:40

, Apple , Spotify

19:42

, YouTube . You can also find

19:44

us on Instagram and Facebook , so

19:47

absolutely .

19:48

And if you're at all inclined , we

19:50

would ask that if you're interested in

19:52

supporting this ministry

19:54

, supporting Cloud of Witnesses Radio . We do

19:56

have a Patreon page , as Nick mentioned . Go

19:59

check us out over there . We try to keep

20:01

it up with . You know , fun things to

20:03

see behind the scenes .

20:04

Hopefully more over time as well , and we're

20:06

just very , very grateful yeah

20:08

we've got a lot of projects on the horizon and we're

20:10

really excited to share them with you

20:13

as they get cooked .

20:15

Exactly right . That's a lot of cooking going

20:17

on in the kitchen right now . There really is . There really is

20:19

Seeing all of it yet , but by God's grace

20:21

it'll be coming out over time . So

20:23

thank you for being here , thank you for listening

20:26

this long into the episode . We're

20:28

incredibly grateful and thank you to our voice

20:30

actors , nick . They did a great job

20:32

on the episode and we

20:34

are eternally grateful for their volunteer

20:37

time . Indeed Bye , bye , signing

20:39

off .

20:40

Hi , I am Robert and I played

20:43

Leo the Fifth .

20:46

Hello , my name is Christian . I voiced

20:49

one of the iconic class and one of the friends

20:51

of the Emperor . Hi , my name is

20:53

Dante and I was narrator one

20:55

.

20:57

Hi , this is Lorenda and I played . Oh my

20:59

gosh , what's your ?

20:59

name Uffda Euphroia , euphroia

21:03

.

21:03

Hold on , okay . Hi , this is Lorenda . I

21:05

played Euphrosony .

21:07

This is Nick and I played Dendaris . No

21:09

, not I .

21:11

This is John , and I portrayed Emperor

21:13

Theophilus .

21:14

This is Hannah and I played Theodora , and

21:17

that's a wrap .

21:20

Thank you for tuning in to this episode

21:23

of Cloud Witnesses Journey

21:25

with the Saints . We hope

21:27

it proved to be exciting and

21:29

inspiring for all of our listeners

21:32

. May God , through the prayers

21:34

of his most pure mother and

21:36

all the saints , guide us all

21:39

to the heavenly homeland . We

21:41

hope to see you next time here on

21:43

Cloud of Witnesses Journey

21:45

with the Saints .