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Every year, the Human Rights Foundation hosts the Oslo Freedom Forum, a time for those working in human rights activism to connect from all over the world.

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This May in Norway, I had the pleasure of sitting down with Roya Mahboob. Roya is an Afghan tech entrepreneur and founder of Citadel Software, a software development company based in Herat. In addition to being one of Afghanistan's first female tech CEOs, Roya founded the Digital Citizen Fund, a nonprofit that aims to increase women's technological literacy

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and provide employment and educational opportunities for girls in Afghanistan.

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Roya was named one of Time's a 100 most influential people in the world in 2013

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for her innovative initiatives to expand computer education. She has created 13 IT centers for girls in high schools across Afghanistan and plans to expand her programs to 40 schools, ultimately reaching more than a 160,000

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female students. Roya has also taken her model beyond Afghanistan to schools in Bangladesh, India, Pakistan, and Nepal. After facing death threats from the Taliban and others for her work, Roya left the country in 2013 and spent 2 years working remotely before returning to Afghanistan in 2016. Rory has since launched Ineura Academy, a technology company that focuses on education, software services, and robotics.

1:19

Do you notice

1:20

that a lot of people don't understand the value of Bitcoin until it's almost too late at that point?

1:27

Yes. I feel like that is a very common trend Yes. Where people, they get too comfortable. Whatever alternative instead of Bitcoin. Yes. But, like, you need to be educated

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and have it ahead of time.

1:42

Yes. Otherwise, during the chaos, when you have one bag and you're trying to leave, it's it's already too late at that point.

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And, also, when people are,

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skeptical on that because they don't do educate themselves to know at least learning about it. They just when they hear that this is a digital coins and the sometimes because of the price goes on up and done, they don't trust it and they don't want to use it. It's a scam. Yeah. They would say a scam. I mean, in

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2013, people called me, that,

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I'm a scam. I'm a fraud because I'm paying people in midpoint. Right. And it went down 90% or whatever. And that's why I was at the time I mean, obviously, I had to save my reputation.

2:20

But,

2:22

Which is pretty crazy looking back on it. Right? Like,

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you were paying people in Bitcoin when it was a $100, and now it's

2:29

$30,000. And they they thought you you were scamming them. Yes. I remember

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how the other part of the world lives. Right. Half of the population or more more than half of the population,

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almost more than 50% are living on under the Toutourian government.

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And again, billions of people don't have bank account, billions of people don't have an ID,

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and it could be solution for them. There's a massive disconnect there. Yes. People people from where I'm from

2:59

really have no idea. They just live in this little bubble.

3:02

Yeah. They think everyone has it as easy as as people in the west do. Yes.

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I I even even in the west, you know, like, in the US, people, if they have Venmo, PayPal, credit card, debit card,

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and online banking, still,

3:18

they use bitcoins.

3:20

Right.

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So just imagine if I mean, we see accounts get frozen, accounts get

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seized or blocked or censored or people get blocked out of financial exclusion in in America as well. Yeah.

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And, like, you know, I wanna give you a story.

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I had, one of our, colleagues, in 2015,

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2015 15 or 2016, she left Afghanistan because of the the

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the attack the Taliban did in her house. Okay. And,

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she left it and she telling us a story. She had some a few bitcoins

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in her wallet. At that time, it wasn't worth much,

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but they had all of their jewelries and monies with themselves,

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and they went smuggling to go to the Europe.

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Obviously, in their ways, do you know this mafia that they take people from one way to another place? To cross the borders. Yeah. To cross border. Right. And they took everything from them. Them. They took their monies, cash, jewelries,

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everything. They robbed them. Yes. They robbed them. And then when they arrived,

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I mean, they arrived in Germany, they didn't have any tips.

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And then in 2017, I think that the price goes up. Right. And she recently sold she remembered that she had a Bitcoin. She sold forgot. Yeah. I probably she forgot it. And then she,

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sold her Bitcoins in 2017.

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She sold it, Bitcoin in 2017,

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and then, and, you know, probably, I think that around 2,500,

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something like that. And she got some money that she will be able to start a better lives there. You never know. You can trust your government. During emergencies

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or unexpected things Yes. You can't travel with gold. You can't you can't easily travel with gold or diamonds Yes. Jewelry or real estate.

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Your bank accounts get closed for taking it. Yes.

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But with Bitcoin, you can go anywhere in the world with Bitcoin. You can cross borders.

5:19

Yeah. And it's very hard to stop you. And no one knows if you have money. Right. And then

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it's in your mind. If you know the password, it's simple like that. If you know the password of your wallet. Right. It's always safe.

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And and that's I mean, we needed to give back the power to the people.

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It's never late to leave. Too late. Yes. Everyone always thinks it's too late. Right? Have you noticed that as well?

5:47

Roya, thank you for joining me. Thank you for having me.

5:51

So you were born in Afghanistan? Yes. And then you left

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and you came back to Afghanistan. What was that experience like leaving your homeland and then coming back to your homeland?

6:03

Well, I mean, you know,

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in 1996 when Taliban took our city,

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I still remember it, you know, they started to taking, the books and booking the TVs and,

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and you know, from the window of my house I saw that

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we had some books that were for the children. I was at the time very young, and I saw that when they set them on the fire

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I saw that how, your freedom and your, you know,

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the knowledge is born. And at that time I think that I always get angry but,

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but, you know, you were living in a darkness

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and, then we we decided to leave,

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Afghanistan and go back go to, to Iran,

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because that was the only way to get educated.

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So then when you turned to Afghanistan you started,

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this software company. What was the

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inspiration or the reason for for doing that? In 2003,

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we returned back,

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around 2003 and around 2004, we returned back to Afghanistan.

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And at that time, there was

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an intern club that was open up in, in Herat. And, you know, in Afghanistan, there was on in at that time, there was only one library in Herat that if he wants to read about books, he could go to there and read. And if you wanted to have an updated information, you have to,

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write the names of the book and send someone to eat on and bring for you.

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So you only had one reality, that your teachers sold you or your father's, and you didn't know what's going on in the world. And I was, I hear that there is a magic box in this entire cafe that, connect you with the world, and they can find different realities. You know? And I was so

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really wanted to go to this in a cafe and see this magic box. And on one day I was insisted, you know, it wasn't good for the girls to use the computer at the time.

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You know, from the first time that I used computer,

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I determined I got in love with this magic wand and I was determined to make somehow technology to be the center of my career.

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And, you know, I went to the university. I,

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I selected to study about computer science and, increased my knowledge. And I started, working at the university as a IT coordinator at a very young age. And then,

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this was giving me, experience of working with the large projects that was, run by NATO and,

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Americans, at the time.

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And, I got good insight,

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how to manage these projects and how to work.

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And then, you know, I decided to start the, Afghanistan software,

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a company that could hire a lot of women as programmers and, you know, as bloggers.

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And, that's how I start my business, to to create a place that'd be safe and also,

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allow women to have, to showing their talents, you know, that, we we could also tell others that we can also do.

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So Afghan Citadel Software Company was the name? Yes. What was was there a specific reason for that name? And the Citadel that we had in Herat is Citadel Citadel,

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is a beautiful,

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building, that for centuries is were there. So I just wanted to put the name of that. So we call it the Atkins Citadel itself. Yeah. I love the name. The name is a great name. Thank you. So you're a female founder,

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and a key aspect of this software company was that it employs

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is it a female only company?

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It was a female,

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yes. We wanted to have more women than an 85% of my,

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software woman.

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So it's like 85 15%

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Yes. Men, women, women, men.

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So where does apparently, bitcoin comes into this conversation at some point.

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How does how how did you get exposed to Bitcoin? Like, how did that become

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part of your journey?

9:55

Yeah. Before I can talk about Bitcoin, I wanna give you a little bit of information. So Let's go for it. You know, when you grow up in in a society that,

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restricted the women's, you know, education access to education Right. Opportunity, it's it's difficult. Many of the women's life ran by men and, in my my country and also the very conservative countries, and the women have a little opportunity to,

10:20

to create their lives for themselves, and their finances controlled by men. So we started, Women in Ice because it was a digital platform that allowed women to,

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earn money by publishing their, you know, thoughts. And,

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Wound Wenx, in fact, was a place that they can, sharing their innovative ideas and as well, social impact.

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And then, we're paying them in Bitcoins, but then the number of our, women and bloggers, get increased across the Afghanistans and as well we use all of some things to Pakistan and also in Egypt.

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The problem is that how to pay these people. Right. And then many of the women didn't have a bank account.

11:01

And, you know that sometimes you it was required that you have a family permissions to go and open a bank account and, But you need a man to open a bank account. Yes.

11:10

I in, in culturally, because in the bank, if you will be older, 18, you can open a bank account. But,

11:17

but culturally you don't go to open a bank account if your family not allow you. So you have the family permissions and then we have to send the monies to to men's because they didn't have the bank account. We had to send monies to their, male and men's relatives'

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packing card deposit, and then you cannot do anything if men tank take their money.

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And, and it was also difficult to send money to different provinces, And you track that if the money,

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you know, the beneficiary get the money or not because it's, it's just very difficult when you send in the cash and they says they receive it and they says they they never receive it. So it's just like, how to track it was also difficult.

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And then we, we're trying to find different ways if they don't have a bank account. We try to if we can see if they have a, PayPal. PayPal didn't work in Afghanistan at the time, also not in in Pakistan because it was sanitation.

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And then we decided to use mobile money, which was worked very well in Kenya, but at the time also didn't work in Afghanistan.

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Mobile money didn't work either and then we heard about Bitcoin. It was very early at the time and then, It was like 2013 or something like that. 2013.

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Early 2013 we heard about the bitcoins and then,

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and then we, you know,

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we decided to use Bitcoin as

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a as a way that we can paying, people. And,

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yeah, and that's how we created, a crypto payment system by using bitcoin,

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which would allow women to receive their money innocently and then,

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obviously the bitcoins bypass us by by physical,

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and social barriers And, with a push of a button the bitcoin is,

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appears on their digital wallets and they receive money in like in a second and it was just very powerful, you know. It was, it was also amazing and they at the time, you know,

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when the feeling that they they have your money in your own bank.

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And they can have 24 hours access to your monies. Because if you go and even if you're paying or buy a bank account, you know, you have to you don't have 24 hours, like, in the US and, you know, other countries,

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because it's online banking also is

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accessible. But in Afghanistan, there wasn't,

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online banking that you have access,

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online. And then, so you have your money with yourself anywhere anywhere you go and no one knows that you have your money. So that was also what I call that a woman

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feel feel that they have their money.

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Basically, you turned to Bitcoin because there was no other option. There was no any other option. No.

13:55

How does that is that today, that's probably a similar situation still. Right?

14:02

And that was 2013. That was 9 years ago.

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Unfortunately, it's probably a very similar situation today where women can't have bank accounts. It's very difficult for them to use the financial system. Today, it's all our thing is get worser because Taliban took over the country,

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and, the restrictions for women get increased.

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And I think that's, it's very challenging,

14:24

more challenging than 2013, You know?

14:29

Yes. In 2013, when we started to use Bitcoins,

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it was very helpful for our system that we can ping people,

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immediately and they can, receive the money safe and they feel secure and then they also, we feel that the bitcoins give them the sense of, you know, ownership and a sense of the safety and then also,

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sense of like, freedom financial, you know.

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They could, they also we started that later on that,

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teaching them how to do like trading and how they can,

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you know, make money with with their bitcoins.

15:07

There must have been a massive education

15:11

issue. Yes. Because it's very different. Yes. It's very different. So how did you handle that? I mean, you probably had to educate yourself and then help your employees as well.

15:19

Yes. I mean, we are a technology. We were we were a technology company, and, many of our staff who work were with us, they knew how to work with the computer. But, obviously, one part of our work is also to provide the training for young women to learn about how to work, and with technology and to have access,

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to computer. When we talk about Bitcoin because Bitcoin concept because using the blockchain, it was similar to concept of hawai system.

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Okay. I don't know how much you are familiar with that, but hawai list system is still is using in Afghanistan,

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is, for centuries was a way that for Muslim communities that they send money from one person to another person, and it was recorded on chain of like random ledger and that's, that was similar concept of the,

16:02

like, There's like little local markets Yes. Right? And then there's almost like a reputation system between Exactly. Communities.

16:09

And and it's,

16:11

I mean So you kind of viewed bitcoin as like a digital version of that? Yeah. That's what I told them, that this is the 21st century Interesting. And that's, it's just

16:19

the 21st centuries of how all the system, how it's worked. And, the Bitcoin is just that like that. And as a digital coin of,

16:27

to like, the HOLLIS system. And it was easy for understanding for the people

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because I'm gonna send to you the money and using obviously a computer and so that

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a person which is using in, in how the system.

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And is that what you were actually were you most of but you were using a computer and your employees were using a computer or were cell phones involved? Like how Cell phone, computer. Because it's a platform allowed people to write blogs and also, make a documentary

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content had.

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And, and then we we created about the scores which is,

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showing that, 1 person how much like can earn money Right. Based on, the content they had.

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And then they got this training before. Before that they get involved with the platform, we provided training for them. How to work and using our, our platform. And in our platform, there was a we also created a digital wallet so they could see how much they can earn money. So it was inside of our platform.

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And, we make it easier for the women, but obviously

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those who had the knowledge how to work with the cell phones and know how to work with the computers,

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they could use our platform Right. In a in a better way. And then at that moment, we we find out, like, you know,

17:48

obviously using the Bitcoin was great, but also, you know, the price of the Bitcoins goes up and down.

17:53

And, after a crash in 2014, end of 2013 and and end of 2014 because it went to, like, 1200 and then all the way back down. Yes. And we lost the business and then

18:06

and I I had to keep in the repetitions to giving the paying the like the differences because you know these women they work so hard to earn the money. And,

18:15

obviously people in in the same industry called me to be fraud and,

18:19

making a lot of, like, a lot of challenges because people were skeptical on Bitcoin, and they didn't understand that. And

18:28

and all is scamming. And I think that all of these things is scam because people are not enough educated.

18:34

Right. And if they are not educated, they are not accept some things. They can be easily skeptical about that.

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And, then we thought that education is a way to,

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implement in Bitcoin in mass way, and the

18:48

adoption of the Bitcoin or blockchain in mass way if you provide education. But education shouldn't be only for, like, developers or only those who are in technology.

18:57

It should be the, underserved population. And even in the villages, you go and teach about them. And I think that was the, the way that we decided to focus on education after

19:08

the Abominix platform, and we provided training for thousands of young women to help to work with the we had a financial literacy program which Bitcoin,

19:16

and cryptocurrencies were part of our, curriculum

19:20

that we could teach young women. And, I you know, after

19:24

fall of the Afghan government

19:27

in August of 2021, the banking system

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collapsed. And, you know,

19:37

the the sand because of the sanctions,

19:41

people it was it was like crazy. You couldn't send money to Afghanistan. Like, even Western Union pulled out. All the companies pulled out. Western Union pulled out. And then,

19:50

and there was a shortage of the money in the country. And, people, like, rushing to their banks, and, they're standing in the lines. They couldn't get the their monies. And then then still today,

20:03

you only can, per weeks, you can get

20:06

$200, from the bank. Still still is, like, limitation. You cannot have the the money. Even with the Western Union,

20:13

today is open. But Western Union also, you can only send,

20:17

I think a $2,000, to, per month to one person that you know it. But you can't all the time send it the money. And there is still limitation.

20:26

And at that time, it was very difficult because, you know, people starving. They didn't have the money. They didn't have the access to your monies in the bank. And then,

20:35

you know, they have to pay for the bill of their houses and was, I mean, crazy. And then,

20:41

and then cryptocurrency and Bitcoins were the only

20:45

way and only safe way that you could send the monies and then,

20:49

to the people. And we used cryptocurrency at the time,

20:52

to pay for our people and, for the they need foods. They need to pay for their, like, houses and, saving houses. You know? Also,

21:01

I know that the several people that used Bitcoins for evacuations to paying people

21:06

to, you know, to take people's to to the safety or take them out of the Get them across the border. Across of the border because there was no any ways. You you didn't had all this that you had the jewelry and then, you know, there was like, Gold. Gold that you could exchange. But

21:20

some people exchange their houses to to to to have some money so that we will be able to be out. And it was, like,

21:27

you know, a very difficult time.

21:31

Yeah. I mean, I the other thing is also here in the US, some

21:36

rich people which they're working in Wall Street, they sometimes says, oh, they are skeptical about Bitcoin.

21:41

But, you know, I feel like, okay. In US, I understand that people have access to credit cards, to debit card and Venmo and PayPal and everything. We have that privilege. We have all these options. Yes. But the half of the population, they don't have it. I mean, more than half of the population, they don't have this access.

22:00

It's still around 2,000,000,000 point 5

22:03

that people are unbanked, and they don't have access to bank.

22:07

And then more than almost close to a 1000000000 people, they don't have an ID,

22:13

which is banks make it very, like, very difficult because they have a lot of bureaucracy to open a bank account.

22:20

It's not always about the people who have everything. Right. Sometimes they have the thing that other part of the world don't have it and these tools is very useful for those people.

22:29

If it's not useful for, for that person. It's powerful. It it gives an individual power. Yes. It give the power back to the citizen or power back to the people. I mean, and I obviously, I understand that some people wouldn't like that because they always keep access to power. And it's it's good for developing countries. It's good for the,

22:50

also for the countries that they have, authoritarian

22:54

governments. And, you know, you get your financial freedom. And it's very important, you know, David, especially with inflation of the prices that, your currencies. And, you know, over at night, your government will be changed, and the next day, you don't have a job. You don't have any money. You don't have access to your bank. And I think that's,

23:15

the beauty of the Bitcoin is that, it give you that freedom and that sense of the safety

23:21

that you you are part of a global community. And,

23:25

you know, you you you have a money that maybe someone's very rich in Wall Street have it, but with unilateral

23:31

of of money, you can also have that same bitcoins and, you know,

23:35

in your country. It's Right. It's a global network that's accessible to everyone. Yes.

23:40

So, like, with the recent fall of the Afghan government,

23:45

you you felt your education prepared

23:48

a lot of a lot of women there to at least

23:52

get through it better than they otherwise would have. Yes. And I feel that,

23:56

that I didn't do enough. I could do more and more educated, more people because that was like,

24:02

you know, saving tools at the time. And still,

24:05

you know, I, and that's why right now we are focusing on, to building,

24:10

our economy, that providing the blockchain and, obviously, bitcoins, cryptocurrencies that they can learn how to use it. It's very important. That's why I can say that. If you wanted to have a mass adoption of the Bitcoins in developing countries,

24:23

we have to put education, first, and it's very important. And we have to put the people, the undeserved populations, and the people who living in the villages and rural areas,

24:32

they need us to know about these tools. Right. They need to know about this magic of this bitcoin. What their bitcoin can do for them. And they many of them, they have access to cell phones, so just they need to learn about that. They don't need to travel

24:47

long distance to get to the city to open a bank account. It is costly and it has a fee and people are

24:54

it's require you a lot of, like, documentations and

24:57

the bureaucracy and but Bitcoin,

25:00

the beauty of Bitcoin, no. We donated all of this. Looking back, is there anything you would have done differently?

25:06

If I go back, I think that I would, definitely provide more educations,

25:11

about the bitcoins to more people, also to the boys. I mean, to men's as well because our program is more focusing on on the young girls that they can learn about education.

25:19

I probably would more focus on that.

25:22

Like you didn't reach enough people. Yes. I just this is one of the things that I was declared at. I was getting involved with, robotics and AI, and we divided the work. But I think that

25:32

I could do it a little bit more. I regretted that. But now I I think that we can fix it. But

25:39

and and now we are working on that. We are right now providing online training for the young women,

25:43

and, in Afghanistan, how to use it more about, cryptocurrencies and also how to become a developer so that they can later on make money with that, especially at a time that right now that your government's not allowing you to go to school. It's not allowing you to work. And, recently, they're making

26:01

new rules that the women should cover their face in the TV. So

26:05

with such a leadership or the government's,

26:09

the women's needs more to becoming a citizen.

26:14

And we're going to relaunch, same concept of WomanX.

26:18

We today, we call this Zola. So, we're working on our platform that allow women,

26:24

to again write blogs, sharing their content and research, mostly about STEM area and they're getting paid by cryptocurrency like Bitcoin.

26:32

Awesome.

26:34

You know, half the world is unbanked.

26:38

Billions of people live in authoritarian regimes.

26:41

To someone who's listening that wants to do education in their

26:47

in their home? What what piece of advice would you give them?

26:52

I think that,

26:54

it's important that they will be open minded

26:57

and be accepted. And,

27:01

they have to learn about bitcoins,

27:03

especially at if you want us to be part of this global,

27:08

village of or a global, community.

27:13

Bitcoins gives you the financial freedom and also has helped you to have a personal growth.

27:18

You know, it's something that, you know, your if your governments change or even your government's,

27:25

you say some things that your government doesn't like it, they cannot freeze your asset. They cannot freeze your money. It's your own money, and you have the power to manage your own money

27:35

without any any governments, any people

27:38

to manipulate it. You know, it's just,

27:41

you know, when you have your, like, financial freedom,

27:45

it's different. You have

27:48

you're owner of what, you earn,

27:53

and it's it's in your hands. So

27:57

so I think that, for many of these people, I would say to be more open minded

28:02

and read about that. And they can be educated themselves, and if they didn't like it, it's fine. But if they like it and they feel that this is something that's different, which I I'm sure they will because it's a magic of the Bitcoin, and,

28:14

I'm sure they will, they would like to to use it.

28:17

Awesome.