0:05

What do we know about the purposes and

0:07

function of the Holy of Holies? And

0:10

do all temples have one? Also,

0:12

has the Church's teachings on wearing

0:14

garments changed over time? And

0:16

is there anything doctrinal about the length of garments?

0:20

Since the garment length has changed in the

0:22

past to accommodate changes in modern clothing styles,

0:24

could we expect them to change again as

0:26

styles continue to change? Furthermore,

0:30

how do we reconcile examples of

0:32

clear, covenantal changes in the endowment

0:34

ceremony with the common narrative that

0:36

the covenants don't change? Today

0:38

on Church History Matters, we sit down

0:41

with Dr. Richard Bennett, one of the

0:43

world's foremost scholars on LDS temple development

0:45

during the 19th century, to discuss these

0:47

and other great questions. And

0:50

by the way, we apologize in advance

0:52

for some difficulties with the audio recording

0:54

of Dr. Bennett. For

0:56

whatever reason, several times during

0:59

this interview, his audio didn't record

1:01

properly, and so it was, sadly,

1:03

unusable. But we hope you'll enjoy what

1:06

we were able to capture from the responses

1:08

of this great Latter-day Saint scholar. I'm

1:11

Scott Woodward, and my co-host is Casey Griffiths.

1:14

And this is our final episode in this

1:16

series about the development of Latter-day Saint temple

1:18

worship. Hello

1:23

Scott. Hi Casey. It's the

1:25

end of a series we've really

1:27

been enjoying today, and we

1:29

have a special guest with us. So this is

1:31

kind of a wonderful day for us. Yes,

1:34

a wonderful way to end a

1:36

really important series. This has been fun to

1:39

talk about temples together. And

1:41

we've been drawing heavily from one

1:44

particular scholar's research. We've looked

1:46

at several, but one particular scholar

1:49

is Richard Bennett, and we have him with us

1:51

today. Say hi, Richard. Howdy. So

1:55

glad you're with us. I'm glad to be with you.

1:58

Excellent. eminent

2:00

scholar and we work together. In fact, I

2:02

think you were the department chair when I

2:04

got hired. I had a

2:06

hand in your hiring, Katie. I

2:10

hope you won't forget that. I

2:13

will eternally be in your debt. Before

2:17

that, I just want to mention that Richard

2:19

was one of my professors. In

2:22

my master's program, he taught the

2:24

church history class and just absolutely

2:26

loved the way that you teach and how

2:29

respectful and kind you were to all the

2:31

people. He used to bring in special guests

2:33

and I just learned a lot from the

2:35

way that you treat people. So this

2:38

is my chance to say thanks for all you've done. Well,

2:40

you are one of my best students, Casey, so it's good

2:42

to be with you again. Did

2:44

you get that? Yeah, we just got that recorded.

2:46

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Let's get that out to the

2:49

public. I can always retract it, you know. We

2:53

hope you won't. We hope you won't,

2:55

but we have a ton of questions.

2:57

Our listeners got really into this series

2:59

and one of the questions

3:01

asked was what book do you keep referencing?

3:04

And we've been pretty open in saying we took

3:06

a lot of this from a book you wrote.

3:08

So I'm going to share the name of the

3:11

book and then the bio from the book. And

3:13

Richard, you can feel free to add or take

3:16

away anything you'd like to. So

3:18

the book is called Temples Rising, A Heritage

3:21

of Sacrifice. It's published by

3:23

Deseret Book. And here is

3:25

your bio. Richard E. Bennett

3:27

is an emeritus professor of church history and

3:29

doctrine at Brigham Young University. He

3:31

has served both as an associate dean

3:34

of religious education and as chair

3:36

of the Department of Church History and Doctrine. He

3:38

was born in Ontario, Canada. He

3:40

holds a Ph.D. in American intellectual

3:42

history from Wayne State University. Before

3:45

joining the BYU faculty in 1997, he

3:48

was head of the Department of Archives and

3:50

Special Collections at the University of Manitoba for 20

3:52

years. He's the author of

3:54

a number of books, including School of the Prophet,

3:57

Mormons at the Missouri, and Will Find

3:59

the Place. The Mormon Exodus. And. He

4:01

and his wife Patricia. Are. The parents

4:03

of five children. And I'll

4:06

just add one thing to that to

4:08

Richard you just returned from. A.

4:10

Stint serving as the President

4:12

of the Mormon Trail Center

4:14

in Omaha, Nebraska. correct. It.

4:17

Right way to quarters. Yeah winter Quarters

4:19

a wonderful to you wishing the same

4:21

with the way for the. And

4:23

is that last. February. Year

4:26

ago last February. Is a very

4:28

rich experience to be there with the play

4:30

news if you will. And. I got

4:32

to come and visit your while you were

4:34

there with the Scripture Central crew. There's a

4:37

nice video of Ah Richard explaining the history

4:39

of winter Quarters. On. You tube If

4:41

you want to go look it up where you can

4:43

see Richard and person and. Batch. Of

4:45

face with the name and see how good

4:47

he is because pretty much all we did

4:49

was turn on the cameras as let you

4:51

go and. It was wonderful.

4:53

Just a really really need experience.

4:55

Great to straighten narrative before we

4:57

dive into specific questions from our

4:59

listeners as just curious. What brought

5:01

you to write this book on

5:04

Temples of is hoping you would

5:06

ask. That question is a good

5:08

segue. Everything you L, S and

5:10

I wrote this book. As

5:12

a sequel to my research and

5:14

ruin exodus, my other two books

5:16

were Missouri to Azeri. He was

5:18

Back in Nineteen Eighty Seven, followed

5:20

by will Find A Place since

5:22

I was a kid. When I

5:24

was ten years old with my

5:26

parents we closed and woman trail

5:28

all the way west as it

5:30

was ingrained in me as young

5:32

as a boy. The. Importance.

5:35

Of the war but Nexus and the

5:37

Woman trails and so. It. Just

5:40

kinda grew up in me inside and

5:42

me at this abiding interest and growing

5:44

interest in the whole story. And

5:46

so I noticed. As I

5:48

was writing the story of the exodus. The.

5:51

Place and temples And to

5:53

place a temple Worship. During.

5:56

This. Exodus. I always thought

5:58

fanatic most that the seats with think

6:00

the same way that we jumped from

6:02

the novel. Campo. They're

6:04

already you talk. To one of

6:07

the temporary with the Salt Lake Temple

6:09

and that everything nothing really happened in

6:11

between. Those. Okay,

6:14

well. That's not

6:16

so. It's a constant

6:18

development. Of Temple

6:21

Consciousness. Amongst the Latter Day

6:23

Saints, it really even got back to Kirtland.

6:26

And I watched how. Brigham.

6:28

Young. Not. Just adopted and

6:31

adapt it. Simple worship

6:33

in the minds of the saints as

6:35

they were heading west and particularly. And.

6:38

Noticed this. A winter

6:40

quarters. Which. Is now course.

6:42

Part. Of Omaha, Nebraska in there at

6:44

winter quarters in the banks to the

6:47

Missouri River. Brigham. Young.

6:49

Men petition by the yearnings of

6:52

the seats. To be sealed

6:54

together. Is. Mindy them their husbands

6:56

and found was you're going after the

6:58

Mormon Battalion. Where. They felt they they

7:00

would never see one another again as they

7:02

go out into the great vast American desert.

7:05

Pleaded for. Simple. Work. And

7:08

Brigham Young. And. I do use

7:10

the phrase he listen to the with one

7:12

year he was Jewish people with another he

7:14

had the keys a new that. And.

7:16

So perform several. Temper.

7:19

Related ordinances. In.

7:21

Private homes, And

7:23

in Willard Riches Octagon. That

7:26

eight sided. Potato. Had a

7:28

car them. There. In winter quarters.

7:30

In the winter, that dreadful dire winter

7:33

of Eighteen, Forty Six And Forty Seven

7:35

when so many Latter Day Saints give

7:37

their lives for the cause, And.

7:39

Brigham Young listen to their

7:41

pleadings and performed temple ceilings

7:44

not endowments. Their. The. Temple

7:46

ceilings and other temple related

7:48

ordinances. Wilford. Woodruff

7:50

baptize in for the Dead

7:52

in the Missouri River for

7:54

instance and and noticed this

7:57

theme this development of temple

7:59

consciousness even. They were crossing.

8:01

Into. The West. And then intrigue

8:03

me. It was more than trails and

8:06

rails and rats. It. Was

8:08

ordinances it was. commitment

8:10

it Cuban. right? Back

8:12

to the Nauvoo Temple where they covenant one

8:14

with another. To. Helped. The.

8:16

Exodus and so this the we're having

8:19

really impressed me. And then I saw

8:21

the first part of this book. Temp

8:23

Was Rising is. Following.

8:25

The Trail. In terms of

8:28

Civil War, And. Then once

8:30

we got to the Salt Lake Valley. The.

8:32

Original council house. Serve.

8:35

The dual purpose it was secular on the

8:37

first floor. It was spiritual on

8:39

the second floor and some two thousand

8:42

and two. Endowments were performed

8:44

in the council house has left the

8:46

allow announced. He now knows comes later

8:48

in the mid eighteen fifties. Where.

8:51

It was raised right there on what has

8:53

to the Temple Square. And. Of

8:55

course. That served as

8:58

a. Temple approach him.

9:00

Or. Baptism for the dead were performed.

9:03

His. Endowments were

9:05

performed, By. Know Endowments for

9:07

the Dead. Only. Living in

9:09

Allen's records, That doesn't happen until we

9:11

get into the St. George Temple. and

9:14

eighteen Seventy seven. And so I

9:16

was struck. By. The

9:18

process of Revelation, the

9:20

ongoing development of temple.

9:23

Consciousness Or awareness. Which.

9:25

Led me to. Study. That

9:28

more carefully and of course he goes

9:30

wrap up through until the conflict. Over.

9:32

Plural Marriage where Wilford Woodruff reaches

9:34

of and exasperating point in the his

9:36

to the churches is which is the

9:39

wisest course. Do we continue with Plural

9:41

marriage? Or. Do we? Preserve.

9:44

As and simple words and that's that's

9:46

the whole story. that book. So that's

9:48

where I was coming from. It's it's

9:50

them. His way back to my. Work.

9:53

with the exodus, but it's flowers and

9:55

develops right through until. Eighteen

9:57

Eighty Three. and a dedication

10:00

temple which is where it ends. By the endowment

10:04

and temple work and how carefully we continue to

10:06

accommodate change within an unchanging

10:28

doctrine, adaptation

10:31

within revelation, is

10:33

that possible? Anyway, these are

10:35

the things that have intrigued me enormously and

10:37

that's where this book came from. And

10:40

that's a theme we picked up on as we've been

10:42

going through this series is there's a great

10:44

deal of evolution and development

10:46

that occurs from the moment

10:48

that Joseph introduced the endowment

10:50

on May the 4th, 1842

10:54

and told Brigham, this isn't quite right but it's

10:56

good enough and you'll need to take it

10:58

and develop it further. From that day

11:00

to today we continue to see changes

11:02

in development and adaptations and so. If

11:05

you believe in revelation, which

11:08

I do, then you have to accept

11:11

change because implicit in

11:13

the doctrine of revelation is change.

11:16

We see it back with Peter, take the

11:18

gospel to the Gentiles. We see

11:20

it all through the Book of

11:23

Mormon elsewhere. It's just that kind

11:25

of an ongoing process. It's a

11:27

child growing into an adult.

11:29

It's changed but it's still the same

11:32

person. Yeah. And I think one of

11:34

the other things that was delightful to

11:36

talk about was sometimes we

11:39

assume that they dedicate the Nauvoo

11:41

Temple and then there's this 30-year

11:43

break until we have another

11:45

temple in St. George. But your research

11:47

kind of points out that there really

11:49

never was a time when there weren't

11:51

temple ordinances happening in the church that

11:53

they were that important that when they

11:55

didn't have a temple they had temples

11:57

pro tem like the council house or

12:00

the Endowment House or any other spaces they

12:02

created to perform these ordinances? Well,

12:05

I didn't know until recently that we

12:08

performed certain temple ceilings

12:11

at Chimney

12:13

Rock. Remember,

12:16

we were dying by the hundreds,

12:19

by the hundreds, if not the thousands,

12:21

in winter quarters. And people

12:23

were pleading for temple ordinances

12:26

and we had a leader of the

12:28

church with all his challenges.

12:31

Brigham Young listened to his people

12:33

and here they are pleading for him. And

12:36

Brigham Young said, I can do this.

12:38

We have the keys. We may not

12:40

have a building, but we have the keys.

12:43

In exigencies like this, policy

12:45

doesn't trump revelation. And

12:47

it was a wonderful experience of adaptations

12:49

as the St. Seq Mooing was. We

13:04

started out with the Holy of Holies.

13:07

We had several listeners ask questions about

13:09

this. We have Kelly, we have Colleen

13:11

from West Valley, Utah, and David from

13:14

Onalaska, Wisconsin. Let me

13:16

just read a bit from each of them. Kelly

13:18

said, can you talk more about what we

13:20

know about the Holy of Holies? I

13:22

believe there is one in the Salt Lake Temple,

13:24

one of the Manti, Logan, St. George, perhaps others.

13:27

Colleen asked, are there any Holy of

13:29

Holies in modern temples? Did all

13:32

the pioneer temples have a Holy of Holies? And

13:34

then David asks, which temples have Holy

13:36

of Holies? What's their role? How were they

13:38

used early on? And how are they used

13:40

if at all today? So what

13:42

do you want to say about Holy of Holies? It's

13:45

a holy topic that I would defer

13:47

speaking too much about. There

13:50

certainly was holy places in

13:52

the Nauvoo Temple. You know, in the Kirtland

13:54

Temple there is the Attic. And

13:57

we're places of revelation, section 113.

14:01

was received in that Holy

14:03

of Holies, if you will, in

14:05

the Kirtland Temple. That

14:08

would certainly suffice. There

14:11

were several ordinances that were

14:13

performed in special places in

14:15

the Nauvoo Temple, which would constitute,

14:17

I suppose, Holy of Holies. The

14:20

Council House in Salt Lake City,

14:23

which was on that second floor, it's amazing

14:27

that the

14:29

separation between the secular and the

14:31

spiritual was only one staircase, and

14:34

they would perform sacred

14:36

ordinances, and they could hear dances

14:38

going on down on the main floor.

14:41

Yeah. So, maybe

14:43

that wasn't such a holy of holy place, but

14:46

I don't think that they

14:49

made a great to-do about whether there

14:51

was a holy of holies or

14:53

not. Certainly in the Salt

14:55

Lake Temple was a place of revelation. The

14:58

entire temple was a holy place. So,

15:01

we know Salt Lake has a holy of

15:03

holies, but we're not sure about

15:05

other temples, and it doesn't seem like there's a

15:07

lot of written material. Are there

15:09

early sources that discuss anything like that? I've

15:13

got trusted access

15:15

to a lot of beautiful records,

15:18

and yes, there is a holy

15:20

of holies in the Salt Lake Temple. I believe

15:22

there was one in the St. George Temple, and

15:25

it was certainly frequented by prophets

15:27

who revelators, but I

15:30

can't make a definitive statement about

15:32

the other temples case here on

15:34

that question. Fair enough. Let's

15:37

tackle some questions about sealing. We

15:40

had a couple people ask

15:42

about the meaning of the word

15:44

seal. For instance, Todd

15:46

from Phoenix, Arizona said, How does

15:49

sealing in the temple relate with

15:51

Christ sealing us as mentioned in

15:53

Mosiah 5.15? Is

15:55

there a connection between that and sealing or

15:57

temple sealing? Then we had Kirk

15:59

asks, Could you address how the use

16:01

of the time

16:04

as temple ordinances developed? Has seal

16:06

historically been used as synonymous with

16:08

bind or has it historically

16:10

been used in the sense to solemnize

16:13

or authorize? So meaning of

16:15

the word as sealing. Well

16:18

the understanding of priesthood

16:21

keys evolves and

16:24

develops. There's no question that

16:27

there weren't ceilings performed in the

16:29

Kirtland Temple as there were in the

16:31

Nauvoo Temple or later in the St.

16:33

George Temple or even in the Pro

16:36

Tem temples if you will in Salt

16:38

Lake City. There is an

16:40

understanding of sealing in two

16:42

ways. One by

16:44

the priesthood authority of

16:46

the one who holds the keys of the priesthood

16:48

and that was of course developing

16:51

with Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.

16:53

There's also the sealing power of the

16:56

Holy Ghost, the ratification,

16:58

the sanctification of

17:00

priesthood ordinances. It

17:02

isn't enough to just perform the

17:04

ordinance. It takes the sanctifying,

17:07

ratification of the Holy Ghost

17:09

to seal. Sealing is

17:12

a Holy Ghost signification

17:15

of eternal life if

17:17

you will and the two

17:19

terms are used interchangeably and

17:21

we read in section 132 that there

17:24

is a sealing power of the one

17:26

who has the authority but it

17:28

has to be ratified and sealed by the Holy

17:30

Ghost. It takes that

17:32

ratification by the Holy Ghost to seal

17:35

an ordinance and it's the

17:37

sealing power of the Holy Ghost which is so

17:40

critical to the sanctification

17:42

of an ordinance. So I

17:44

think I want to say that there are other

17:46

ways that it could be interpreted in the scripture

17:49

the sealing power but my studies

17:52

show that the great sealer if you

17:54

will is the Holy Ghost.

17:56

That's where I would take that because an ordinance

17:59

that is not ratified by the

18:01

Holy Ghost may not

18:03

endure. And eternal

18:24

life. So that talks about Jesus

18:26

Christ and

18:31

the Spirit are all in tune

18:33

with each other. In harmony. Yeah. A

18:35

ceiling from one is a ceiling from

18:37

the other. Let me just add to

18:39

that, Kasey. And again,

18:42

verily I say to you, this is section

18:44

132, verse 18, if

18:46

a man marry a wife and

18:49

make a covenant with her for time and

18:51

for all eternity, if that

18:53

covenant is not by me

18:56

or by my word, which is

18:58

my law, and is not sealed

19:01

by the Holy Spirit of promise through

19:03

him whom I have appointed and anointed, then

19:06

it is not valid, neither a

19:08

force when they are out of

19:10

the world because they are not joined by me, say

19:12

of the Lord. What is that thing

19:14

among other things? Well, it is

19:17

saying clearly, it must be

19:19

ratified by the Holy Spirit of promise. That is

19:21

the great sealer, the Holy Ghost. And

19:24

as you said, Kasey, I think we do not

19:26

want to split hatred in the Holy Ghost and

19:28

praise to you, but I am just reading section

19:31

132 that that Holy Spirit of promise is

19:33

the essential sealer. And

19:36

so in response to Kirk's question of does

19:38

sealing mean to bind or to

19:40

solemnize or to authorize is probably all

19:42

the above, correct? Sanctified

19:46

and sealed. Well, I think the emphasis

19:48

should be on sealing by the

19:50

Holy Ghost, justified by the

19:52

ordinance sealed by the Holy Ghost.

19:55

Thank you. Well,

20:08

let's go on to some questions

20:10

about the garments. Oh,

20:13

I got a question here from Chris from

20:15

West Jordan who asked, Has

20:17

the teaching on always wearing garments changed

20:19

over time? I remember reading

20:21

that Joseph Smith sometimes removed his garments because

20:23

of the hot weather. That seems

20:26

different than church leaders counsel to us today. Do

20:28

we know when or how this shifted? Maybe

20:30

let's start with that one and then we have some follow-up questions.

20:33

Well, the concept of

20:37

the garment is a scriptural one. It

20:39

goes back anciently. That has

20:42

never changed from these Nauvoo times.

20:44

I don't believe that you have the garments

20:46

in the Kirtland Temple, but you begin to

20:48

see it in the Nauvoo Temple. And

20:50

certainly the pioneers were very faithful

20:52

in wearing the very long and

20:54

extended woolly garment. When

20:57

they got to the Salt Lake Valley, one of the very first

21:00

things they did was go up to the Salt Lake and float,

21:02

not on their garments. Obviously,

21:05

there was common sense in some

21:07

of these things. We see

21:09

that again in the Exodus when they're crossing rivers and

21:11

what have you. Many times

21:13

they would remove their garments and what

21:15

have you. It was practical. It

21:18

was a pragmatic thing to do this from time

21:20

to time. Brigham

21:22

Young was a practical leader and there

21:24

were exceptions made, but the

21:26

principle remained the same, whether it

21:28

was for weather or whatever other reason. And

21:32

I think what Chris is referring to about Joseph

21:34

taking his garments off because of the hot weather,

21:36

if I'm following here, is

21:39

that time when – in Carthage, right?

21:41

Like I think Joseph and Hiram both

21:44

and John Taylor removed their garments. And I think

21:46

John Taylor commented on that, that it was because

21:48

of the hot weather. And

21:50

I think that's our only incident we have on

21:52

record that I'm aware of, that they did so.

21:55

I mean, when you consider those pioneers down

21:57

in St. George and Holmes,

22:00

rock in Arizona and it's 1870s and

22:02

it's 120

22:07

degrees and they're wearing these long garments.

22:09

Give them a break. Talk about hot

22:12

weather. They live by it

22:14

but make it work and sometimes there are

22:16

exceptions and we still have that

22:18

today but the principle is

22:20

the same. And that's the language today

22:22

still isn't it? Isn't it to wear

22:24

your garments as often as

22:27

what's the current handbook language here? Here's

22:29

the mention from the handbook. It

22:31

says, it should not be removed for activities

22:33

that can reasonably be done while wearing

22:36

the garment and it should not

22:38

be modified to accommodate different styles of

22:40

clothing. Endowed members should seek the guidance of the

22:42

Holy Spirit to answer personal questions about wearing the garment.

22:45

It shouldn't be removed when it can

22:47

reasonably be worn. That's that sort of

22:49

modern language there and they're crossing

22:51

the river they're gonna take off their garments. They're floating

22:54

in the salt lake they're gonna take off their garments and

22:56

so but the question about

22:58

hot weather I don't know I'm not gonna be

23:00

Joseph's judge or Hiram's or John Taylor's

23:02

here and that last line what

23:04

was it Casey that members what was that?

23:06

Endowed members should seek the guidance of the

23:09

Holy Spirit to answer personal questions about wearing

23:11

the garment. There you go. And I'll just

23:13

say outside of that Carthage jail reference I

23:15

don't know of anything that says that you

23:17

know Joseph Smith and his associates

23:19

took off their garments in a cavalier fashion.

23:21

Yeah I don't know of any either. Yeah

23:24

that seems to be the only exception and

23:26

it's coming from I think I believe it's

23:28

from John Taylor correct Scott? Yeah and WWF

23:30

helps made that common as well as

23:33

far as the sources I could track down.

23:35

So yeah it's not like he's taking them

23:37

off every Wednesday or every hot day. There's

23:40

one hot day it was Carthage and

23:42

they came off that day for whatever

23:44

reason and that's all we

23:46

know as far as I'm aware. That's

23:48

critical to understand. Yeah

23:51

this is Ben from Chapel Hill,

23:53

North Carolina. Hello Ben and Megan

23:56

from Charlotte, North Carolina. So they're

23:58

both asking this question. in the

24:00

all-read ban, he said, is there anything doctrinal

24:02

about the length of garments that

24:04

will keep it from changing further and getting shorter,

24:06

or is it only the symbols

24:09

that are important? Could we expect

24:11

garments to become even less conspicuous as

24:13

clothing styles and tastes change but still

24:15

keep the symbols? And Megan asked,

24:18

when was the last time the garment changed designs,

24:20

made to hit the knee and the cap

24:22

sleeves, and why the change? Was it to

24:25

accommodate with the changes of style and clothes?

24:27

Why then haven't the garments changed yet again,

24:29

to be more like modern underwear? So

24:33

there does seem to be some accommodation that's

24:35

happened as clothing styles have changed. Do you

24:37

anticipate that that would continue? Richard,

24:39

I know none of the three of us

24:41

have the keys of the kingdom here. We can't make those calls,

24:43

but how do you want to respond to Ben

24:46

and Megan? Well, those are excellent

24:48

questions. And I don't

24:50

pretend to understand all the latest

24:52

policy changes on garments and lengths and what

24:54

have you. Yes. There have

24:56

been changes, obviously, from Nauvoo time when it

24:58

went from your wrist down to your ankles,

25:01

and that lasted for quite some time. Joseph

25:04

F. Smith is going to make some major changes

25:07

in the garment later in the early 20th century. But

25:10

in those early periods, those

25:12

garments were very long. Has

25:14

there been cultural accommodation? Yes.

25:17

But has there been a denial

25:20

of the principle? No.

25:23

And if we can keep those two

25:25

in sync one with another, we're going to

25:27

do just fine. And

25:29

I wouldn't be surprised that there might be some

25:31

more changes down the road. That's

25:34

what our prophet's for. But

25:37

clothed in the priesthood means,

25:39

I think, what is dearest

25:42

to us and closest to us,

25:44

closest to the flesh, if you

25:46

will. The combination of

25:48

spirit and flesh is implied

25:50

in the garment. And

25:53

so there may be some adaptations that

25:55

come out of it from historically

25:57

speaking and Dokni speaking, no

25:59

denial. of the principle. Yeah. So

26:02

you would say, yes, it's mostly those symbols

26:05

that matter the most and the covenants

26:07

that they help us to remember a

26:09

reminder of our discipleship. That's the key piece.

26:12

And protection. Spiritual

26:15

and physical protection. The pioneers, the

26:17

saints, they clung to that. They

26:20

clung to those covenants with tenacity.

26:23

And it was their protection, not

26:25

the garment itself. It was

26:28

their faith and the covenant that they had made

26:30

with God that was their

26:32

great protector. And they believed that. They

26:35

really believed that. And I

26:38

think if we don't see that, then we

26:40

miss the whole story of the Mormon Exodus. It

26:42

wasn't just a migration of a bunch of

26:44

people like the California Gold Rush. It was an

26:46

Exodus of covenant. Does that make sense? Oh,

26:48

that's very helpful. Okay,

27:03

we're ready for another one. Okay,

27:06

let's do a question here on Doctrine and Covenants 110. John

27:10

from Salt Lake City, Utah asks, given

27:12

the importance of DNC section 110 to the church, especially

27:16

as it pertains to temple work, and

27:18

let's just pause here and remind ourselves.

27:21

So this is the revelation where Christ

27:23

accepts the dedication of the Kirtland Temple

27:25

and then Moses, Elias, and Elijah restore

27:28

priesthood keys. Okay, really big,

27:30

important section. So I'll continue

27:33

John's question. He says, so why

27:35

was it never preached by Joseph Smith

27:37

or Oliver Cowdery during their lifetimes? This

27:40

section, why was it only recorded

27:42

by a third party war and Cowdery,

27:44

Joseph scribe in Joseph's personal journal, and

27:47

was not added to the DNC until 1876, 40 years later? It

27:52

seems strange for such a

27:54

momentous revelatory experience and doctrinal

27:56

watershed. How would you like to respond to

27:58

John's question? Well, what

28:01

a wonderful question that is.

28:05

Let's talk about Section 138 for

28:07

a moment before we talk about Section 110. Okay.

28:11

As you well know, Section 138 was

28:13

the basis for

28:15

Joseph F. Smith's great revelation on

28:18

redeeming the work for the dead. Do you

28:20

remember that wonderful revelation? Yes.

28:22

That was given in 1918, as

28:25

I recall, and it was

28:27

published in Gospel Doctrine. And I always

28:29

wondered, even though when I was a

28:31

kid, how come this

28:34

remarkable revelation isn't in our

28:36

Doctrine and Covenants? Well,

28:38

it wasn't until 1976 that we

28:40

finally got around to it. It

28:46

was the reclamation of earlier

28:48

revelation. It's a classic case

28:50

of waking up to what

28:52

had been given earlier and beginning to realize,

28:55

over time, the great significance of that

28:57

revelation. It should be in

28:59

some little book someplace. It's got to be in our

29:01

Doctrine and Covenants. And it took a prophet to bring

29:04

it forth to say the earlier

29:06

prophet was so right on, we

29:09

know through the Spirit of the Lord,

29:11

going to canonize this, canonize.

29:14

And that raised it up several notches. And so

29:16

it's in our consciousness now. We

29:18

look at Section 138 with reverence

29:21

as one of the great 20th century revelations. So we have

29:23

precedent. Now,

29:26

Section 110 is the same thing. It

29:28

wasn't just Section 110 that was canonized

29:30

in 1886. It was

29:33

Section 2. It was Section 13. It

29:36

was Section 121, 122, 123, 132, which we take it. We

29:44

read that in our Doctrine and Covenants today. Oh, these

29:46

have been here since we get it. Not so. It

29:50

takes some time for us

29:52

to catch up to what the Lord revealed earlier.

29:55

That's not coming out as a criticism. I'm not

29:57

criticizing the church. It's just...

30:00

an awakening of the church,

30:02

the leadership of the church to the great value

30:04

of those earlier revelations. And there was Orson Pratt,

30:06

by the way, who supervised

30:08

that committee to have those sections

30:11

canonized. And of course,

30:13

109 was also included

30:15

in that list. I forget all of them,

30:17

but there's several of them. So we're speaking

30:20

of something bigger than just one section here.

30:22

I'll come to that in a minute. The

30:25

principle is the reclamation of revelation.

30:27

A church led by revelation can sometimes

30:29

reclaim revelation that it, ah, looking in

30:32

the rear view mirror, that is much

30:34

more important than I thought it was.

30:36

It's not only looking forward. Revelation doesn't just

30:38

look forward. It looks backward. It

30:40

looks sideways. It looks the whole field.

30:42

You know what? That revelation

30:45

was critical. And now section 110, it's

30:48

in that same bailiwick. It's in

30:50

that same corner of revelations that,

30:53

wow, as we are now developing temple consciousness

30:55

in the 1870s. And this is at the

30:57

same time that the St. George temple is

30:59

coming on board. We need

31:01

to have revelatory

31:03

scaffolding for the

31:05

place of temple worship. We're reaching

31:08

a point that we never saw before. And

31:11

is there a foundation for what we're doing

31:13

now in St. George and some

31:15

of those new temples? Yes. There

31:17

is doctrinal foundation for it. And it's section 110 and

31:19

109 and 2 and 13 and 132.

31:25

And that's part

31:27

of this temple consciousness. It's revelatory consciousness. Am

31:30

I making any sense? A lot of sense,

31:32

yeah. A lot of sense, yeah. And I'll

31:35

add too that the incident was actually

31:37

written down in Joseph Smith's journal, I

31:39

believe, the day it happened. And

31:41

then there's a letter from W. W. Phelps that

31:44

make reference to it too. And

31:46

I also think it's incorrect to say that Joseph

31:48

never preached about that. He preaches a lot about

31:50

Elijah and Elias and the keys that they hold

31:52

and the powers that they possess in the time

31:54

period. I don't think it's true to say that

31:56

he never talked about it or that people in

31:59

the church... weren't aware of it.

32:01

It just didn't become canonized until 1876. And that's a

32:03

common thing

32:05

in the church. It takes time for things to kind of get

32:08

sorted and rise to the top

32:10

and become canonized Scripture. And wasn't

32:12

one of the contextual things going

32:14

on here in 1876 some back and

32:16

forth with the RLDS church? Yeah,

32:19

the RLDS church was putting some pressure

32:21

on us, especially it's led by Joseph

32:23

Smith's son and they're claiming, we

32:26

have the same authority as you because we came

32:28

from the same origin source. And it

32:30

seems like what was placed in the 1876 Doctrine and Covenants was

32:34

centered around this idea of priesthood keys. Okay,

32:37

you guys might have been ordained by the same people

32:39

as us, but do you hold the keys of the

32:42

priesthood? And those sections that

32:44

were added that Richard mentioned, section 2,

32:46

section 13, section 110,

32:49

section 121 all emphasized the idea and concept

32:51

of not just priesthood, but the keys of

32:53

the priesthood being necessary to lead the church.

32:56

Well, it's also, if I could add to this,

32:59

there were no endowments for the

33:01

dead performed until 1877 in this

33:03

church. That's a fact. You're

33:06

telling me that we did not do endowments

33:08

for the dead until 1877? That

33:10

is correct. The expanding

33:12

understanding of the

33:15

self-vific power of the temple to

33:17

generations past, not just baptism for

33:19

the dead. We understood that. The

33:22

endowments for the dead, that is

33:24

of such magnificent proportion and

33:27

significance. Where is our

33:29

doctrinal basis for this? Where

33:31

is it coming from? Now, it was understood that

33:34

now it's going to be applied. And as

33:36

I said, Orson Pratt and those

33:38

with him are leading the charge and

33:40

that's the right word for it. There

33:43

is revelatory basis for this and

33:45

all the work for the dead

33:48

above and beyond baptism is for the dead. That's

33:50

what's being signified in these revelations. And

33:53

if I might go on a limb, people

33:55

wondering, well, what other changes might

33:57

come? The key revelations

34:00

of this dispensation is temple-based.

34:03

I'd say that again. All the key

34:05

revelations of this dispensation are temple-based? It's

34:08

temple-based. And future revelations

34:10

that might change policy on

34:13

this or that will probably be

34:15

based on the same principle. We'll

34:18

let it expand and allow for more

34:20

to understand and receive temple blessings. So

34:23

I see a great connection between modern

34:25

revelation and temples, and that's why I

34:27

think President Nelson is so right on

34:30

in terms of what's happening today.

34:32

It's a continuing of our history.

34:35

Amen. Yeah, amen. All right. This

34:48

is a question from Gabe, who's in Pueblo, Utah. He

34:52

said, there's sometimes a narrative that

34:54

while the application or implementation of

34:57

temple ordinances may change, the covenants

34:59

themselves do not. But

35:01

I remember a time in the temple when women

35:03

covenanted obedience to their husbands as their husbands were

35:05

obedient to the Lord. That

35:07

covenant is no longer part of the temple presentation.

35:10

You also mentioned that there used to be a covenant

35:12

to pray for the Lord to avenge the murders of

35:14

the Prophet Joseph in Hiram, which was later removed. How

35:17

do you reconcile these examples of clear

35:20

covenantal change with the common

35:22

narrative that covenants don't change? Well,

35:24

I think he's really put his finger

35:26

on the question that a lot of people have,

35:29

even myself. There

35:31

are covenants that are

35:34

relationship covenants, and then

35:36

there are self-dific covenants.

35:39

And the only thing that I would say in

35:41

terms of that change, which is good brother mentioned,

35:44

is that yes, there has been

35:46

a change in that covenantal

35:48

relationship, if you will, or the relationship of

35:51

covenant between a man and a woman. But

35:53

the emphasis has never changed

35:56

between the covenant with God. And

35:58

those haven't changed. Yes, there

36:00

have been changes. I

36:04

agree with that. You might

36:06

even say cultural accommodation to

36:08

some extent that's reflected in this. And

36:10

this is just in that. It's in

36:12

other parts of the endowment ceremony as

36:14

well. Yeah. So do we need

36:17

to change the narrative? Should

36:19

we stop saying that the

36:21

covenants don't change? Maybe

36:23

that's the simple fix is to say, like we've been

36:25

saying about everything else, like it's

36:27

all subject to revelation and to those who hold the

36:30

keys of the kingdom. It

36:32

can change. Sure. But

36:34

essentials, baptism and

36:37

Holy Ghost, the ordinance and what have

36:39

you, sealing powers, things like

36:41

that, there's no question that

36:44

in temple consciousness the rise of

36:46

temple marriages has increased.

36:49

So you do see changes in

36:52

emphases from time to time. So

36:54

I would argue that the essential self-evident covenants

36:56

remain the same. Yeah. One

36:59

of the things you mentioned in your book is

37:01

that the temple recommend questions have changed over time.

37:04

It seems like prior to Hebrew Jay Grant, there

37:06

was no expectation for a person to live the

37:08

word of wisdom if they were going to go

37:10

to the temple. Now that's been essential

37:12

for over 100 years. And

37:14

so if the expectations to go to the

37:16

temple change, we should be comfortable with the idea that

37:18

the covenants we make in the temple can

37:21

sometimes change, especially the relational

37:23

covenants. But I agree

37:25

with you that the salvation covenants are

37:27

pretty consistent over time, even if the

37:30

wording sometimes there is change too. Yeah.

37:33

That's an interesting distinction. Relational

37:35

covenants and salvific covenants,

37:37

those covenants essential for salvation.

37:40

I'm going to think about that as well. Thank

37:42

you. We call this a Q&R, not a

37:45

Q&A. And I think this is

37:47

case in point. Yeah. These

37:49

are responses. These are ironclad answers all

37:51

the time. Yeah. Thank

37:54

you. We

38:05

know that members who had just received

38:08

their endowments gathered and shared their insights

38:17

and experiences what we

38:19

would call today Temple Testimony Meetings. This

38:22

poses the question, what means of learning do

38:24

we have today to expand our understanding of

38:26

the rich symbolism in the Temple? Are

38:29

we to do this entirely on our own, guided by

38:31

the Spirit, or what's your suggestion? Well,

38:33

you could read my book to start. Shameless

38:37

plug. I noticed in the

38:39

last conference with the discussion on the

38:41

garments, for instance, I think there's

38:44

a recognition by Jewish leadership that there are a

38:46

lot of things that we can talk about. And

38:49

that doesn't mean that we go and sit

38:51

down and have a Temple 305 class, but

38:53

I think we should be encouraged to ask

38:55

questions like this good sister's asking you or

38:57

brother or for you. And

39:00

it's not going to be in our Sunday

39:02

School manual next week because these are places

39:04

to discuss things in the Temple. But more

39:07

and more there's being written, whether it's the

39:09

Joseph Smith Papers or especially Relief Society, histories

39:11

that have been written by the Church that

39:13

go into this in detail. I think there's

39:16

more of an encouragement in our Gospel Essays

39:18

topics and what have you to

39:20

discuss these things reverently. What

39:22

does Shireway mean? I think a lot of

39:25

people would be surprised at the materials that

39:27

are already in Gospel Library like the Minutes

39:29

of the Relief Society and other

39:31

things in the Joseph Smith Papers that are

39:33

completely open for study that if they take

39:36

a look at, they'll find a lot of

39:38

insights, especially if they take a

39:40

look through the lens of the Temple. Definitely.

39:42

The Church is much more open than it was

39:44

even 20 years ago. Thank goodness. That's

39:47

a good thing. That's a good thing. Can

39:50

we ask, your book that you

39:52

wrote was published through Deseret Book, which is owned by

39:54

the Church. What kind of authorizations

39:56

did they give you? Did they give you boundaries

39:58

when writing the book? as to, don't go

40:01

here or here's some sources you can use. You

40:03

mentioned a little bit about that earlier. The

40:05

editors were very, very open. I

40:07

mean, I was given access to

40:09

many, many wonderful sources that

40:12

haven't been utilized, at least

40:14

for a long time, but the

40:16

editors got back to me. Here was their only

40:18

question was, Brother Bennet, do we need that much

40:21

on plural marriage? Because

40:24

the book traces the rise of plural

40:27

marriage and the rise of temple work

40:29

simultaneously and how one trumps the other.

40:32

But you can't understand the rise of

40:35

temple work without understanding the impasse that

40:37

led to the manifesto. So

40:39

it's not a whitewashed study by any

40:41

means. And so they

40:43

kept 99% of everything that I

40:46

wrote. A few statistical things

40:48

just modify that, but no

40:52

debate over the great editing work that

40:54

was done by Desert Book on that

40:56

book. Do you think

40:58

there might be challenges with the second book as you

41:00

move a little closer to the present? What

41:02

are some sensitive issues that you might anticipate

41:04

if a second volume is produced? I

41:07

don't know whether there will be specific issues Casey,

41:09

but I know this one. Writing

41:11

Church history is a measure of trust. You

41:14

are entrusted with access

41:16

to sacred materials and to

41:19

trust it, you want to maintain

41:22

if you want to have access to other materials

41:24

in the future. And I've tried to

41:26

be true to that trust. Not to

41:28

whitewash, to tell a real story, but

41:31

it's a story of reading, of faith.

41:34

It isn't just the access, but it's the

41:36

understanding of the sources that you're

41:38

seeing in the light of

41:40

gospel principles that helps

41:42

you write history in a way that is

41:44

both academically rigorous, but

41:47

spiritually strengthening. And that

41:50

trust is so critical. I've

41:52

seen many who have lost that

41:54

trust. It's critical

41:56

to writing good, responsible church

41:59

history. Well said. Well,

42:01

you are certainly a master of that

42:04

craft and we appreciate it deeply. Your

42:06

contributions to our understanding is marvelous

42:09

and so we want to encourage you to continue

42:11

to write. Keep blessing us. Thank

42:13

you. We really appreciate you, Richard. Thank you

42:16

for taking time with us today. If we

42:18

could, we just want to ask you one

42:20

more question. Would that be all right? That's

42:23

one question. No, this

42:25

was just a personal question about your own

42:27

faith if you don't mind responding. It's

42:30

simply this, that after having

42:32

thoroughly and profoundly studied Joseph Smith's

42:34

work and the history of the

42:36

church for decades, you're

42:38

still a believer. Why? What

42:41

makes you a believer in the prophetic

42:43

mission of Joseph Smith and the core

42:45

truth claims of the restoration? No.

42:48

I love what Helen Mar

42:50

Kimball Whitney in her journal,

42:53

reflecting back on her part of her life. She

42:55

says something along these lines, and I wish I

42:58

could quote it word for word,

43:00

but I can't. She said,

43:02

as I look back upon the

43:04

story of the Latter-day Saints in her life, this is

43:07

being written in the 1890s, going through back to the

43:09

1830s, she grew up

43:11

in Kirtland, married in the Nauvoo

43:13

temple the day before they

43:15

leave on the Exodus. She says, as

43:17

I look back upon it all now, and all our

43:19

ups and downs, all of our

43:21

troubles and the wards and

43:24

the trials and the tribulations, the

43:26

saints, to be compared with the

43:28

ancient saints of old, she

43:30

says, their faith was

43:32

remarkable. And as I look back upon my

43:35

life, I've put it back to when

43:37

I was a kid, 10 years old. I've

43:39

always been, what's the right word? Satisfy

43:41

is not the right word, gratify is not the

43:44

right word. I've always been

43:46

inspired is not nearly powerful enough,

43:48

motivated isn't strong enough. I've

43:51

always been pulled into

43:53

the spirit of the gospel and

43:55

have been taught by people greater than myself

43:57

who have clung onto this. And

44:00

when academic questions are whirling all around,

44:02

it comes down to a simple conviction

44:04

of the Spirit of the Lord, even

44:07

in our own weaknesses and sins

44:09

that has whispered to me constantly

44:12

in a beautiful fashion, this is

44:14

true. This is the gospel. Sometimes

44:17

I wonder, how can we change this? And

44:19

how can we change that? Does the church make a mistake here?

44:21

Maybe we might have staked there. But

44:24

it's just been that sweet teaching of the

44:26

Spirit of the Lord as I've

44:28

looked at all these sources and I can see

44:30

it unfolding in the lives of these people, how

44:32

it changed people for the good, for the right.

44:35

So I can't say it anymore than

44:37

just a simple but recurring witness of

44:39

the Spirit and the truthfulness

44:42

of the church and of the gospel. And

44:44

it's helped me weather the storm whereas others

44:47

I've seen have fallen by the way. I

44:50

don't know why their circumstances are different

44:52

than mine, but I would be untrue

44:54

to my deepest convictions to deny the

44:57

truth of it. I wouldn't be myself,

44:59

I'd be somebody else. And I

45:01

can't afford to do that. So I

45:04

don't know if that answers your question, but I keep

45:06

coming back to the beautiful revelations

45:08

of our scriptures and prophetic leaders

45:11

and it's just part of me.

45:15

Well said. That's a wonderful answer. I'm

45:18

really looking forward to reading the

45:20

next volume when it comes out. So keep doing

45:22

what you're doing. We appreciate your work. Thank you

45:24

very much. Thank

45:30

you for listening to this episode of Church History

45:32

Matters. For more of Dr.

45:34

Richard Bennett's scholarship on the development

45:36

of temple worship, we recommend you

45:38

check out his book, Temples Rising,

45:40

A Heritage of Sacrifice. If

45:43

you're enjoying Church History Matters, we'd appreciate it

45:45

if you could take a moment to subscribe,

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makes us easier to find. Also, we'd

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love to hear your suggestions for future series

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on this podcast. If there's

45:56

a Church History topic you think would be worth

45:58

exploring for multiple episodes. Send us

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your idea to podcasts at

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scripturecentral.org. We'll consider

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all suggestions. Today's

46:07

episode was produced by Scott Woodward and

46:09

edited by Nick Gelletti and Scott Woodward

46:11

with show notes and transcript by Gabe

46:13

Davis. Church History Matters

46:16

is a podcast of Scripture Central, a

46:18

nonprofit which exists to help build

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46:44

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46:51

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46:53

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