0:03

Today we're kicking off in Carnaby Street,

0:05

in London, a popular, famous

0:07

tourist thoroughfare talking to people

0:09

about gaming centers.

0:12

I imagine that it's

0:14

not going to compete with the levels of shopping

0:16

and restauranting of purely

0:18

because I think it's a much larger

0:21

demographic that are interested in going

0:24

to restaurants or shopping.

0:25

I think we probably will see more

0:27

gaming centers, especially when we see high

0:29

street shops go down in the future.

0:33

Across the world, our main streets

0:35

or high streets are experiencing

0:37

a great reckoning, whether we're talking

0:39

about Chicago's Michigan Avenue, Manhattan's

0:42

Fifth Avenue, or London's High

0:44

Street, Kensington, the very identity

0:47

of these storied avenues is under review.

0:50

For every successful high street, there's

0:52

another one struggling to survive or

0:54

simply make it through another holiday season.

0:57

It begs the question, what do high

0:59

streets need to be? How

1:02

can they diversify and go beyond

1:04

being a place for high end jewelry

1:06

or discount trinkets to ensure

1:08

their survival? Must high streets

1:10

become intuitive, breathing entities

1:12

that pivot to the demands of the people, businesses,

1:15

and governments responsible for their prosperity?

1:18

One emerging theory is that newly

1:20

established gaming facilities in city

1:22

centers may just save the

1:24

traditional high street from itself. But

1:26

is that enough? Because overall,

1:29

the situation for high streets is serious.

1:32

According to the Office of National Statistics,

1:34

March, 2020, report on high streets,

1:37

a third of addresses on UK high streets

1:39

belong to retail shops, with

1:41

half of those addresses being residential.

1:44

In July, 2022, The Guardian's

1:46

Sarah Butler, noted that campaigners

1:48

are urging the UK Government Tobacco Fund

1:51

worth £ 350 million

1:54

aimed at reviving high streets. In

1:56

order to see why we've arrived here, I'm

1:59

going to speak with Richard Baldwin, Director of Leisure

2:01

from Avison Young. Throughout this episode

2:03

we'll also hear from Andrew Carter, Chief Executive

2:06

of the Center for Cities, and Michael Harrison,

2:08

co- founder and Chief Growth Officer at Gravity,

2:11

an indoor gaming complex at the vanguard

2:13

of transforming the high street. I'm

2:15

Mariam Sobh, and this is changing

2:18

places. Let's

2:21

hear from Andrew Carter, Chief Executive

2:24

of the Center for Cities.

2:26

If you look at a thriving high street, you

2:28

can reasonably, confidently say

2:31

this is part of a thriving city or thriving

2:33

town, and vice versa. In our struggling

2:36

places, about 40% of

2:38

their floor space in their high street is given over to

2:40

retail. In our most successful places,

2:42

that's about 20%, so half. So

2:45

the better a place is doing, actually, the

2:47

less role that retail plays

2:50

and it, there's a wider range of uses,

2:52

a wider range of roles that

2:54

those high streets are playing, whether it's places

2:56

of entertainment, or hospitality,

2:58

or indeed office work, more generally,

3:01

outside of the retail sector.

3:05

Let's begin with Richard Baldwin, Director of

3:07

Leisure from Avison Young. Richard,

3:09

if we look across the landscape

3:11

of high streets and leisure centers on the high

3:13

street, it's not one story.

3:16

We have cities like Greater London where you can

3:18

find a variety of centers on high streets,

3:20

from axe throwing to indoor surfing.

3:23

But then there are places like Blackpool, which

3:25

was once a booming entertainment destination.

3:27

So from your vantage point, is

3:29

there a reason there's a divide when it comes to where

3:32

and who gets these options on their high

3:34

streets?

3:35

Yeah, absolutely. It's the principles

3:37

of supply and demand, and prosperity

3:40

and risk of investment, really. Blackpool's

3:44

great example of a Victorian coast

3:46

resort. The Victorians were probably

3:49

at the forefront of leisure development and

3:51

built a lot of leisure centers

3:54

primarily around the coast, actually. And

3:57

I suppose the entertainment

3:59

centers were peers in their first

4:01

iteration. But of course, we're now in a time

4:03

where we've got bigger urban centers

4:06

and as a consequence, we've

4:08

got leisure in those urban

4:10

centers being developed

4:13

in and around the people who

4:15

have the disposable income to use

4:17

those centers. So it

4:19

is, unfortunately, just

4:22

a dynamic of the market that you will get

4:24

development of leisure where the

4:26

demographics dictate the people

4:28

are to spend the money in those facilities.

4:31

Are leisure centers having to

4:33

keep up with times and evolving tastes?

4:36

Or if they don't do that, will they be left behind?

4:39

Yeah, they do. We are in a very

4:41

strange market, particularly in the

4:43

UK at the moment, where we've got lots

4:46

of factors playing against the

4:48

capability to generate income. So

4:50

not least people's disposable income,

4:52

because essentially leisure centers only thrive

4:55

on the capability and the capacity

4:57

that people have to spend money after

4:59

they've paid for all the critical

5:01

things. We've got a customer

5:04

base that is more

5:07

tech savvy, a growing

5:09

customer base that is demanding

5:12

more. So they want novel

5:15

experiences, they want

5:17

entertaining experiences, they want value for money,

5:20

they want to be entertained.

5:23

So if you don't evolve

5:25

to that market, you will be left on the sidelines.

5:28

And those examples of leisure,

5:31

historically, that possibly

5:33

just does not really appeal to

5:36

this changing market. I

5:38

suppose ten- pin bowling

5:40

or bowling was, but

5:42

is going through a period of renaissance.

5:45

And I think that's probably because they've realized

5:47

that they have to change the

5:49

product to the evolving

5:51

market and make it more

5:54

attractive. So there's quite a lot of investment

5:57

going into those ten- pin at the moment. But

5:59

yeah, I think you'd be pretty foolish operator

6:01

if you didn't aim to evolve your product.

6:04

Well, in order for these types of places to

6:06

survive, do you think they need to be all

6:09

things to all people? Go- karts,

6:11

virtual reality, rock climbing, or

6:13

is that better placed on the high street, versus

6:16

a center that specializes in one thing?

6:18

I think that the market is

6:21

seeing that having a massing

6:23

of these modalities of leisure,

6:26

whereas you say you can go rock climbing or the

6:28

children can rock climb whilst you have a drink

6:30

or play snooker or through axes,

6:32

et cetera, is evolving.

6:35

And I think we're seeing a convergence

6:38

of physical activities

6:40

alongside digital activities.

6:43

So these leisure

6:46

centers or entertainment centers,

6:48

if you want to call them, I think there's economies

6:50

of scale in massing the products in

6:52

them. I think they provide variation

6:55

which keeps the customer there,

6:58

and they appeal to a wider market than having

7:00

just a single modality of leisure,

7:02

be it climbing, in one place

7:05

without anything necessarily to

7:07

keep people in that place. We've got

7:09

some good examples in the UK of where we've

7:11

had, for example, snow

7:14

domes, so indoor ski centers built.

7:16

Castleford, is a good example where you've got Xscape and

7:19

around it you've got critical massing

7:22

of other leisure facilities and

7:24

retailing facilities. So you got a retail outlet

7:26

center there and you've also got,

7:28

within Xscape, a number of food and beverage

7:31

outlets, some retailing outlets that

7:33

are all focused on extreme

7:35

sports. You've got high ropes course,

7:37

you've got some gaming, and then you've

7:39

got some other standalone restaurants

7:42

adjacent to it. So there is a massing

7:44

going on, but that's out of town. Because, clearly,

7:46

it's a substantial building and needs

7:49

a lot of space, which you don't necessarily have in town centers.

7:51

But yeah, I think there's definitely advantages

7:53

of massing. There's advances to massing in every

7:55

modality of property, when you think about it.

7:58

You have massing of office blocks, office,

8:00

a combination in one area. You have massing

8:02

of residential, massing of logistics

8:06

because it makes sense from an investor's

8:08

point of view and a developer's point of view to have that massing.

8:11

And on a macro scale, it probably, I

8:13

think it has advantages if you do it in

8:15

the leisure sector as well.

8:17

Yeah. I'm thinking of if there was a place that had

8:19

all these activities and I never had to leave, I would

8:21

definitely go.

8:23

Yeah, well that's it. They want

8:25

to keep you there, don't they? And also, they want

8:27

you to feel like that, because essentially

8:30

you then will give it a good review,

8:32

you'll tell your friends about it, you'll tweet

8:35

about it, you'll stick it on Instagram, and

8:37

then that will generate more interest

8:40

in it, more footfall, more turnover,

8:43

more profit.

8:44

Is the future of the high street one

8:46

where you can have a gaming center in an

8:48

old department store or will new spaces

8:51

have to be built for the needs of these centers?

8:53

But before we get there, let's hear from Michael Harrison

8:55

of Gravity and then we'll go back to London's

8:57

Carnegie Street.

8:58

We built

9:01

Gravity Wandsworth during the pandemic. Before

9:03

this, we was predominantly, the market

9:05

for us was the three to 13 year

9:08

old with the Gravity

9:10

Active concept, which is trampolines,

9:13

climbing walls, obstacle courses. This

9:15

big box opportunity was

9:18

not available before the pandemic.

9:20

The spaces just wasn't there. So

9:23

the likes of the Debenhams going

9:25

bust allowed these spaces

9:28

to be available for leisure. And

9:32

landlords are, it's

9:34

hard to change the

9:36

view that this unit

9:38

that has forever been a Debenhams,

9:41

that a go- kart track and a bowling

9:43

alley and bars and restaurants are the right thing to do. It's

9:46

proven, it's absolutely the right thing

9:48

to do. And not only now is

9:50

leisure getting the third floor

9:52

behind the escalators where nobody wants

9:54

to put retail, the future

9:56

will see leisure be front and center

9:59

on them all and retail work

10:02

around it. And Gravity

10:04

will not be

10:06

just the future of leisure,

10:08

but also retail. The best

10:10

thing about Gravity is the locations we

10:12

choose and the retails around us and

10:15

leisure should fall into those retail and FNB

10:17

opportunities. And these malls need to

10:19

start working together more as

10:21

one entity.

10:23

Stay tuned for the next part. And

10:26

just a reminder, Changing Places

10:28

is a podcast, brought to you by Avison Young,

10:31

that continues to explore and question

10:33

our complex relationship with the built

10:35

world around us. I'm your host,

10:37

Mariam Sobh. I hope you're liking the show

10:40

so far. If so, please share

10:42

Changing Places with your friends. Welcome

10:46

back to Changing Places. Before we get

10:48

back to my conversation with Andrew Carter,

10:51

let's go back to London to hear what people think

10:53

about changes to the high street.

10:55

I think people will always want

10:57

something new and a new experience,

11:00

but maybe both shopping and

11:02

virtual reality could be integrated

11:04

in some way or another.

11:06

I think we'll probably see more,

11:08

especially with high street shopping,

11:12

it's kind of gone very downhill. They've

11:14

tried to elevate it now

11:16

with experiences and all that stuff,

11:18

which works for some stores,

11:20

but on a general scale of

11:22

high street shopping, it doesn't really work.

11:25

So people want more things to

11:27

do. So we might be able to see more in the

11:29

future.

11:30

I think these gaming centers are positive, because

11:32

as the world is advancing I think

11:34

it's really important for us to see how it

11:37

caters to us as well.

11:40

Again, Andrew Carter.

11:42

High streets have evolved and adapted over the last

11:45

10 years to changing preferences

11:47

and move away from retail towards

11:50

entertainment, hospitality. We've seen a

11:52

significant growth in those kinds

11:54

of spaces. We've already seen some

11:56

department stores in some of our places, they were

11:59

empty during COVID and beyond being

12:02

repurposed for other uses,

12:04

not retail at all, some of the uses that

12:06

you've described. What's also I think is

12:08

interesting, is that

12:10

we've also seen, more recently, the rebirth

12:13

and revival of some of

12:15

our more industrial neighborhoods

12:17

at the edges of some of our city

12:19

centers. These are old warehouse,

12:22

industrial locations that

12:25

were derelict 30 years ago and

12:27

laid empty for a good

12:29

time, and now they've been repurposed into a

12:31

mix of uses again and have become, much often,

12:33

the most dynamic parts of our

12:36

town centers. So there's always this kind of flux

12:38

and change, underlying all of that is this nature of

12:40

demand.

12:44

When it comes to these buildings

12:46

and developing these centers, is the future

12:48

of the high street one where you have a

12:50

gaming center in an old department

12:52

store, or are new spaces having to be

12:54

built for the needs of these centers?

12:55

Over the last 10 years

12:58

or so, some big department

13:00

stores closed. We've also had

13:02

a change in the planning to the Town

13:04

and Country Planning Act, which

13:07

allows now a

13:09

change of use without planning

13:12

consent having to be granted. So

13:14

obviously you're not changing the physical appearance

13:16

of the building from retailing

13:18

into leisure. So

13:21

that has opened the door

13:24

to developers taking

13:27

these bigger spaces

13:30

in high street locations,

13:32

in good high street locations. One

13:34

of the first was on Oxford Street, and that

13:36

was a BHS, that's a British Home Store that

13:38

was repurposed for leisure.

13:41

We've got House of Fraser that is also going

13:43

on, I think, in Lincoln and

13:46

Exeter and various other places.

13:48

We've got an ex Debenhams in Liverpool

13:50

where there is a proposal that we'd

13:53

been working on for a group to

13:55

repurpose that building into

13:57

a leisure destination. And

14:00

so they have plans to put a hotel in there.

14:03

They have plans to put a significant

14:05

amount of competitive socializing

14:08

and experiential leisure. The

14:10

historic buildings make great leisure

14:13

destinations because

14:15

the fabric of the building is lovely

14:17

and relaxes you. And there's so

14:20

many examples of cool restaurants

14:22

in warehouses and bars

14:24

in redundant lidos and stuff

14:26

like that, which that's where you want to go,

14:29

as opposed to something that's very

14:31

modular, I think. Yeah, I think

14:33

it helps if you've got a proactive local

14:36

government that is place making and

14:39

regenerative and fundamentally

14:43

has the money

14:46

to be able to sustain

14:48

the public realms and those sorts

14:50

of features that makes these destinations

14:53

work. But of course, the

14:55

public sector in the UK is not awash

14:57

with cash. And so

15:00

that's what we're up against.

15:02

The leisure sector and lots of other sectors,

15:05

quite frankly, come out of the pandemic.

15:07

The leisure sector did pretty well

15:09

off the back of everybody being allowed

15:11

to socialize once again. So as

15:13

a consequence, the end of last 2021

15:16

summer was very, very good. But I

15:18

think we're now in a period where

15:21

people will be tightening the purse strings

15:24

and how regeneration

15:27

goes forward, or the scale

15:29

of regeneration going forward, I think will

15:32

be something that, well, certainly

15:34

everybody in my sector will be looking

15:36

at with interest. You've

15:38

got to find the local authorities with the money and the

15:41

committee who are

15:43

willing to take quite a big risk.

15:45

Richard, I want to talk about what you think the future

15:47

holds in store for leisure and entertainment

15:49

on high streets. But just before

15:51

you answer, let's hear from Gravity's Michael Harrison.

15:55

Gravity's the fastest growing leisure company in the UK.

15:58

We're currently building Xscape Yorkshire. We're

16:00

building Liverpool, where we start

16:02

the Westfield Stratford site in the next

16:05

few months. The idea is that we

16:07

will open probably 10 to

16:09

14 of these sites across the UK. We

16:11

have a couple of sites, trampoline

16:13

parks in the Middle East already. Gravity

16:16

Max is planned to also

16:18

open in the Middle East. And

16:21

the States are also on

16:23

our radar. It's becoming a big

16:25

brand. It does what it says on

16:27

the tin. It's fun, it's active,

16:31

so times are exciting.

16:34

So Richard, looking ahead to the next decade

16:36

or two, what do you see in store for leisure centers

16:38

and entertainment on UK high streets?

16:41

I'd like to have a crystal ball. I

16:43

see the physical and the

16:45

intangible leisure markets

16:49

becoming closer at it, more intrinsically

16:51

linked. So got

16:53

to have the physical element of it because

16:55

we're human beings, to go in there and

16:57

touch it, and feel it, and hear

17:00

it, and see it. But

17:02

of course, we've got this massive,

17:05

intangible, digital,

17:07

online presence.

17:10

And whilst you can sit at home and

17:13

do it, the interaction is different. The

17:15

interface is completely different, isn't it? I

17:17

think fundamentally we will see

17:20

a convergence

17:22

of those two aspects.

17:26

How that actually plays out

17:28

in the physical form

17:30

of these places, I'm not entirely sure. But

17:32

we've got more virtual

17:34

reality going into

17:36

sites and I know Gravity's got

17:39

virtual reality in there. Yeah,

17:41

I mean that's how I see it. I still think

17:43

there will always be a market for it.

17:47

Let's go back to Carnegie Street.

17:49

I think the high street will

17:52

probably never

17:54

cease to exist. I'm

17:57

not sure if it'll be more populated by

17:59

gaming centers, but I'm not sure if they'll

18:01

take this into the high street.

18:03

I very much hope the old fashioned high street

18:06

will rebound. I think the evolution

18:08

of the old fashioned high street will

18:10

certainly involve more gaming centers.

18:13

Certainly there will be more and more modern offerings

18:17

because our needs are

18:19

growing.

18:21

I'm sure you're going to have more modern offers. The shops

18:23

evolves. People buy different things

18:25

in different days. Are they going to be all

18:27

gaming centers? Doubt it. In high

18:30

street you always going to be classical

18:32

purchase, and objects, and

18:34

clothing, and food. Yeah,

18:37

that's the high street, I guess.

18:40

Again, Andrew Carter from the Center for

18:42

Cities.

18:43

I think there's a tough 10 years ahead. I

18:45

think there is a real recalibration

18:49

of the mix of uses that are

18:51

on the high street. Is it fit for

18:53

purpose? Do we have too much retail? Almost

18:55

definitely, yes. How do we reconfigure

18:57

that? We might need to take space out. We

19:00

might need to be much more proactive around not

19:02

only repurposing, but actually demolition.

19:06

And finally, Michael Harrison.

19:08

First and foremost, landlords

19:11

don't want arcades in a high street. They

19:13

just don't. I feel not

19:16

a lot has moved forward in the industry

19:18

in the last 30 years or so. I

19:20

think that the city center who

19:22

went for full license gaming,

19:25

with the big wins, I think they gave arcades

19:27

a bad name on the high street, almost

19:30

a little seedy. For me,

19:33

for arcades, family entertainment

19:35

centers, true family entertainment centers, cashless

19:38

with tech and an overall experience

19:41

is the future. Gone are the days where

19:43

you can put some neon lights up

19:46

and some gaudy carpet,

19:48

with a load of arcade machines on top of it. These

19:51

need to be immersive experiences. The

19:54

customers have got a lot of choice nowadays, virtual

19:56

reality will play more in part of this.

19:58

We're brought in e- gaming as well. People

20:01

need to move away from what's been and

20:03

just start a little bit more effort into it.

20:07

I think the prospect of having leisure

20:09

centers full of games, surfing,

20:11

go- carting and the like, sounds like

20:13

a wonderful added value to the high street.

20:16

If the high street is going to survive for another

20:18

generation or six, it will

20:21

need to be all things to all people. Maybe

20:23

it's a mix of gaming centers, high- end department

20:25

stores, residential high rises and

20:28

things we have yet to dream up. Maybe

20:30

we've become accustomed to going to places

20:32

like Oxford Street for an outfit or

20:34

a luxurious lunch at Selfridges without

20:37

considering the future of these areas.

20:39

It's not to say that only catering

20:41

to retail is bad, but in order

20:43

to thrive, to really give a high

20:46

street a fighting chance, it must serve

20:48

the people and enterprises which

20:50

make these places truly dynamic on

20:52

every level. As we look

20:54

to the future of high streets, the prosperity

20:57

of a city or even the neighborhood of a city, may

20:59

very well continue to dictate the independence

21:02

and offerings for the people who frequent

21:04

it every day. If that's so,

21:06

then will those places left out of the

21:08

story of prosperity become ghosts

21:10

of their former selves unless a shift

21:12

happens, which somehow saves their

21:14

high street? Or is it simply

21:16

too knotted to begin to unravel the future?

21:20

I suppose it's something to consider the next

21:22

time you're window shopping, heading into

21:24

a gleaming gaming center or rushing

21:26

into the office. I'll see you

21:28

on the high street. I'm Mariam Sobh,

21:31

this is Changing Places. Changing

21:37

Places is brought to you by Avison Young.

21:39

Our producer is Andrew Pemberton- Fowler.

21:41

Our sound engineer is Patrick Emile. Our

21:43

producer assistant is Hugh Perkic. Additional

21:46

production support is provided by Jar Audio.