0:15

Pushkin. This

0:19

episode of Cautionary Tales is

0:21

made possible by HBO and

0:23

their new series The Regime, which

0:26

depicts a crisis in the rule of

0:28

a fictional dictator, Elena

0:30

Vernham, played by Kate Winslet.

0:33

You can stream The Regime now on Max

0:35

and you can find more episodes of this show

0:38

Cautionary Tales wherever you

0:40

get your podcasts. The

0:43

Regime is inspired by real

0:45

events and real characters, including

0:47

the Romanian dictator Nikolai Shawshesku

0:50

and his wife another Elena.

0:53

Today's cautionary tale is all

0:55

about their downfall and a

0:58

word of warning. It does contain one or two little

1:00

spoilers for the Regime, so

1:03

you might prefer to watch that first stick

1:06

around at the end of this true story

1:09

to peer behind the scenes of the Regime

1:11

and hear me in conversation with writer, executive

1:14

producer and showrunner Will

1:16

Tracy. But for now on

1:19

with the episode.

1:24

Dr Nicolay Dekker is driving

1:26

home in his little red Datcha after

1:29

finishing his shift at the local hospital.

1:32

Dr Deker is a short, stout man

1:35

in his fifties. He's puttering

1:37

along a quiet country road fifty

1:40

odd miles outside book arrest Romania.

1:43

The year is nineteen eighty

1:45

nine, early in the afternoon on

1:48

the last Friday before Christmas.

1:51

Dr Dekker has made this journey many

1:53

times, but today everything

1:56

is different. The news had

1:58

buzzed around the hospital. The hated

2:00

dictator Nikolai Chowsescu

2:02

and his even more hated wife Elena

2:05

are on the run. Protest

2:07

as in book Arest took over for their palace.

2:10

They fled by helicopter. Now

2:12

they were who knows where. Maybe

2:15

I'll catch the bastards on my way home,

2:17

joked Dr Decker. For

2:20

nearly twenty five years, the

2:22

country has been in the grip of the increasingly

2:25

deranged Chowshescus. Now

2:29

they're gone. What comes

2:31

next? Dodor Decker

2:33

drives along, lost

2:35

in thought. His reverie

2:37

is interrupted by the sight of a big

2:40

man at the side of the road, urgently

2:43

flagging him down. A

2:45

big man with a submachine

2:47

gun. Dr Decker

2:50

pulls over. The

2:52

big man clambers into the back seat

2:55

of the datcher. An old

2:57

woman gets in next to him, then

2:59

into the passenger seat of the little red

3:01

DATCHA climbs a short,

3:04

old man with a graying pompadour

3:07

and a wild eyed look. On him his face.

3:12

It's the chow Chescus, Nikolay

3:14

and Elena and what must

3:16

be a bodyguard. Drive,

3:19

says the bodyguard. Doctor

3:22

Deca drives. Have

3:24

you heard about what happened? The old

3:26

dictator asks him. The

3:28

doctor decides to play dumb. No,

3:32

he says, I've just finished my shift at

3:34

the hospital. I haven't heard any news. There's

3:37

been a coup, says Nikolay chow

3:39

Chescu darkly. Then

3:42

we must organize the resistance.

3:44

Are you with us?

3:46

Dr Deca is horrified. He

3:49

can't say yes. He despises

3:51

the chow chescuse everyone does, but

3:53

he's acutely aware that their bodyguard

3:56

is sitting right behind him with

3:58

a gun. In this moment,

4:01

Doctor Decca embodies the predicament

4:03

the Romanian people have faced over

4:06

the last quarter century. The

4:09

doctor grips the steering

4:11

wheel of the little red datcha.

4:15

What to do?

4:18

I'm Tim Harford and you're

4:20

listening to cautionary

4:22

tales. In

4:51

Bukarest, Romania stands

4:53

one of the world's biggest buildings,

4:56

the Palace of the Parliament. I

4:59

went there once years ago. It's

5:01

not an experience you easily forget.

5:05

The Palace of the parliament is fast.

5:07

It's seven times the size

5:10

of the Palace of Versailles, and

5:12

at least as opulent, all

5:15

intricately carved wood, gold

5:17

leaf, and marble colonnades,

5:20

enough marble to build a column

5:22

twelve feet wide and sixty

5:25

miles high, says the tour

5:27

guide. She takes us from

5:30

one ludicrously oversized

5:32

room to the next. Forty

5:34

foot ceilings, five ton

5:36

chandeliers, fifty acres

5:39

of carpet. The carpets had

5:41

to be woven in the rooms because they'd

5:43

be too big to carry if you made them elsewhere.

5:46

The tour goes on and on,

5:49

room after room after room, and

5:51

still you see just a fraction

5:54

of this astonishing structure. If

5:57

you didn't know its history, what would

5:59

you think of this place? It

6:02

would, I reckon leave you cold. Externally,

6:06

the architecture is boring, functional,

6:09

almost brutalist. Inside,

6:12

it's a display of wealth, but not of

6:14

taste. There's no artistic

6:16

vision, just bling piled upon

6:18

bling. But when you do

6:21

know the history, it doesn't leave you

6:23

cold. It makes you see.

6:27

The palace was built on the orders

6:29

of Nikolai Chowshescu, the

6:31

dictator remembered mainly for his

6:34

disastrous ban on birth control,

6:36

which led to hundreds of thousands

6:39

of unwonted children being

6:41

left to rot in squalid

6:44

orphanages. As the palace

6:46

was going up, Chowsescu's policies

6:49

were pushing the Romanian people

6:51

deeper into poverty, with

6:53

rationing of food and heat turned

6:56

off during the biting Romanian

6:58

winters. Out on

7:01

the balcony, you look straight

7:03

down the two mile boulevard

7:05

that leads up to the palace, a

7:08

boulevard longer and wider

7:10

than the chance of Lysee in Paris, and

7:13

you think of the swathes of old

7:15

buildings that Chowchescu

7:18

ordered to be demolished to build

7:20

his boulevard and his palace. The

7:22

homes of forty thousand

7:24

people were bulldozed to

7:27

make way for this monument to Megalomania,

7:30

A gilded marble middle

7:32

finger raised to the

7:34

city. Nikolai

7:38

Choschescu was born in nineteen

7:40

eighteen into a peasant family.

7:43

As soon as he had finished primary school

7:46

in his village, his parents sent

7:48

him off to the city Bucharest to

7:50

earn his way as an apprentice shoemaker,

7:53

but Nikolay soon developed other

7:55

ideas. He discovered

7:58

Marx and Lenin and became a Communist.

8:01

Nikolai seems to have been deeply earnest

8:04

in his beliefs. Stories

8:06

from his youth. Paint a picture of

8:08

a hue, m Willis Zelot. Well,

8:11

let's ask his son Valentine, who

8:14

incredibly turned out or right. Soon

8:17

after his parents were forced from power,

8:20

Valentine Sharsescu sat down with

8:22

the British journalist John Sweeney. The

8:25

new kind of politicians, said Valentine.

8:28

Lie all the time. My

8:30

father was one of the old kind. He

8:33

was driven by some kind of fanaticism,

8:36

this belief that you can do good. It's

8:39

a sort of madness.

8:45

After the Second World War, the

8:47

Communist Party took power in Romania,

8:50

Nicolai became a rising star. In

8:53

nineteen sixty five, when the party

8:55

needed a new leader, they turned

8:57

to him. At

9:00

first, Nikolay seemed to be a

9:02

relative good guy among the communist

9:04

dictators of Eastern Europe.

9:06

He seemed more open to engaging

9:08

with the West. He wasn't afraid

9:11

to disagree with the Soviet Union. But

9:15

then in nineteen seventy one, Nikolai

9:18

and Elena went on a state visit

9:20

to Asia. In North Korea,

9:23

Nikolay saw how every room

9:25

contained a photograph of Kim Il Sung

9:28

and a sixty foot statue

9:31

of the great leader dominated

9:33

the Pyongyang skyline. This

9:36

thought, Nikolai is a proper

9:38

level of respect in

9:42

China. Elena had

9:44

an epiphany of her own. She

9:46

saw that Chairman Mao's wife

9:48

had a personality cult as powerful

9:51

as that of Mao himself. That

9:54

she thought is how a leader's

9:56

wife should be treated. Elena

10:00

Chowshsku, in the words of historian

10:02

Mark Almond, combined

10:05

arrogance, brutality, stupidity,

10:09

and self confidence. Like

10:11

her husband, Elena had no schooling

10:14

beyond the village primary, where

10:16

her report card suggests she flunked

10:19

almost every subject. But

10:21

Elena decided to become a

10:23

scientist. She forced actual

10:26

scientists to put her name on

10:28

their papers. She set herself

10:31

up as world leading expert in

10:33

the stereo specific polymerization

10:36

of isoprene. Every

10:38

night Romanian television carried

10:41

a two hour update on the

10:43

glorious deeds of Nikolai and Elena

10:45

Chowshescu. Newspapers

10:48

gushed with praise. Elena's

10:50

birthday said one is a crucial

10:53

date in Romanian history. Her

10:55

husband's underlings are based themselves

10:58

the entire country highly

11:00

appreciates the outstanding

11:02

activity you carry out in the field

11:04

of science and technology. It

11:07

was all nonsense, of course, obvious

11:09

nonsense, though few dared

11:11

say so openly fear

11:13

of the securitate. The secret

11:16

police saw to that Romanians

11:22

would let their guard down only with

11:24

people they felt they could trust. There's

11:27

an urban legend from the time that goes

11:30

like this. A friend of a friend

11:32

was in a car that broke down. He's stranded

11:34

by the roadside when another car pulls up

11:37

and the driver says, where are you going

11:40

book arrested? Get in, says

11:42

the driver, I'll give you a lift. They

11:45

start to talk. They get on well. The

11:47

hitchhiker tentatively ventures

11:50

a comment about the state of the economy.

11:53

Yes, agrees the driver. Things

11:55

are very bad, and you know

11:57

you can't believe a word you read in the newspaper,

12:00

a good harvest when there's so little food

12:02

in the shops. Before

12:04

long, they're ripping into the

12:06

delusional dictator and his dim

12:08

wife. They're roaring with

12:11

laughter and trading well worn

12:13

jokes. Why is it a good thing

12:15

that porn magazines are banned

12:17

in Romania? Because we all

12:19

know which couple would insist on being the

12:21

centerfold in every issue.

12:24

They get to Bucharest and the passenger

12:26

thanks the driver for the lift and

12:28

the conversation. We never introduced

12:31

ourselves, he says. He holds

12:33

out a hand and mentions his name. The

12:35

driver shakes his hand warmly

12:38

in return and says, I'm

12:41

Valentine Chowsescu. The

12:45

story may not have been true,

12:48

but it captured a truth. Even

12:50

the couple's oldest son knew

12:53

what was really going on in Romania and

12:56

felt just as powerless as

12:58

everyone else. And

13:01

then, after twenty five years,

13:03

suddenly and unexpectedly,

13:06

the people rose up. What

13:08

does does it take to turn sullen

13:11

private grumbles into angry

13:14

public protest? In

13:16

this cautionary tale, we'll

13:18

meet two ideas that can

13:20

help explain it. Dr

13:26

Deker is gripping the steering

13:29

wheel of his little red Thatcher. One

13:31

minute he was quietly driving home from

13:33

work. The next he

13:36

somehow got Nikolai Chowschesku

13:38

in his passenger seat and a layer

13:40

in the back, along with their gun toting

13:42

bodyguard. We must

13:45

organize the resistance, says the mad

13:47

dictator. Are you with us? Dr

13:50

Decker tries to stone wall I'm

13:53

not sure I'd be much used to

13:55

the resistance, says Doctor Decker. I'm

13:57

getting on a bit, you see, and my health

13:59

isn't the best. The doctor's

14:01

mind is whirring the

14:04

whole country. He knows would

14:07

love to lynch the chowchescus

14:09

if they're found in his car, he

14:11

might be lynched too.

14:13

How can he get rid of them?

14:15

He's approaching a village and he

14:17

sees a man he knows outside his house

14:20

cleaning his car another

14:22

little datcha. Not many

14:24

people have cars in communist Romania.

14:27

In the villages, you'll see more horses

14:30

and carts, But everyone

14:32

who does have a car has a datcher.

14:35

They aren't fame for their reliability,

14:38

and that gives doctor Decer an

14:40

idea. Listen

14:42

to that engine, he says,

14:45

it sounds like the carberetta is about

14:47

to fail. I'll better stop and get

14:50

help. Dr

14:52

Decker pulls over. Cautionary

14:56

tales will be back after the break.

15:06

This cautionary tale is made an

15:08

association in with HBO and

15:11

their new series The Regime, which

15:13

depicts the rule and the

15:15

fall of the fictional dictator

15:18

Elena Vernon after

15:20

she's been toppled by a citizen uprising

15:23

Elena goes on the run with her confidante,

15:26

Herbert. Zubac flags down

15:28

a bewildered citizen and jumps

15:30

into the back of his car. She

15:33

too has a wild eyed look

15:35

on her face. You

15:47

are joker.

15:49

Will you help your chancellor? Yes?

15:51

Yes?

15:52

Where are you loyal?

15:53

There? To your home?

15:54

It is a kind nice

15:57

much like Dr Dekker. The bewildered

15:59

citizen drives off Elena

16:01

and Zubac now in his charge.

16:04

But the outcome for fictional Elena

16:07

and Zubac isn't quite the as

16:09

for their real life counterparts. If

16:12

you haven't seen the series yet, I won't

16:14

spoil it for you. Let's

16:16

return to the true story of Nikolai

16:19

and Elena Chowsescu. When

16:22

an international church asked Nikolai

16:24

Chowchescu's permission to donate twenty

16:27

thousand Bibles to their Romanian

16:29

branch, he said, of course.

16:32

Chousescu was keen to get investment

16:34

from Western countries and westerners

16:36

in you like the idea of

16:38

religious freedom. But the bibles

16:41

mysteriously went missing in transit.

16:44

A few months later, a batch

16:47

of toilet rolls appeared in the shops

16:49

with fragments of verse still

16:52

readable for

16:54

religions in Romania, the

16:57

unspoken deal was clear, you

17:00

can operate as long as you don't cause

17:02

any trouble. Religious leaders

17:04

formed a multi faith panel and

17:06

issued joint statements. Called

17:09

Chowsescu, the leaders agreed, is

17:11

a man of supreme wisdom,

17:14

the greatest hero in Romanian

17:17

history. Every local

17:19

priest knew that if they dared to raise

17:22

doubts about the wisdom of Chowsescu's

17:24

policies, the leader of their church

17:26

would soon slap them back into

17:29

line. But

17:33

one local priest risked it

17:35

anyway. Laslo Tokas

17:37

was a pastor with the Hungarian

17:40

Reformed Church in Tibershwara,

17:43

a city in western Romania just

17:45

over the border from Hungary. He

17:47

spoke out against Chowsscu's

17:50

program of systematization, a

17:53

mad grand plan to

17:55

demolish half the country's villages and

17:57

move everyone into identicate high

18:00

rise blocks in new agro

18:02

industrial towns. Toke's

18:05

his boss, the bishop ordered

18:07

his troublesome priest to relocate

18:10

to a new parish in a tiny,

18:12

remote hamlet at the end of a rutted

18:15

track in the middle of nowhere. No

18:18

said Tokees, I won't go this

18:22

parochial dispute caught the attention

18:24

of television journalists in Hungary,

18:27

which had just emerged from its own period

18:29

of communist rule. Journalists

18:32

secretly recorded an interview with

18:34

Tokees and managed to smuggle

18:36

the videotape over the border. Why

18:39

are you putting yourself at risk like this, they

18:42

asked, As a minister

18:44

said Tokees, I feel

18:46

myself responsible for the people.

18:50

This responsibility is all

18:52

the more heavy as most of

18:54

my fellow ministers are

18:56

silent. After

18:59

the interview was broadcast, Tokees

19:01

found that his telephone line no

19:03

longer worked most of the time. Sometimes

19:06

it rang, and when he picked it up he

19:09

heard a torrent of anonymous threats.

19:13

Some members of his congregation started

19:15

getting threats too. One

19:17

was found dead in nearby woods.

19:20

The bishop went to court to get an

19:22

eviction order that would force Tokees to

19:24

move to his new parish. Others

19:27

tried a different approach. Four

19:30

masked men broken to tokees home

19:33

and beat him up in front of his pregnant

19:35

wife and three year old son. Tokees

19:39

lost his court case on the

19:41

date set for his eviction, the

19:43

fifteenth of December nineteen eighty nine.

19:46

A few parishioners gathered outside

19:48

his house to sing psalms. More

19:51

people joined from different churches,

19:54

and more and more.

19:57

When a truck arrived to take Tokees

19:59

and his belongings away, it couldn't

20:01

get through. The

20:04

mayor of Timishwara turned up and

20:06

told the crowd to disperse. Did

20:09

not disperse. They stayed through

20:12

the night. By the following

20:14

evening, five thousand

20:16

people were gathered around the house of

20:18

Laslo Tokas. This

20:20

was no longer a show of mournful

20:23

solidarity for a priest facing eviction.

20:26

It had morphed into a full

20:28

on protest against the regime.

20:31

Nothing like this had ever

20:34

happened before in Chaoshescu's Romania.

20:37

What explains it? One

20:41

answer comes from economics, the

20:43

idea of an information cascade.

20:47

This can happen when people make a decision

20:49

in sequence, one after the other,

20:51

such as which movie to watch, which

20:53

product to bile, which doc to invest

20:56

in. We each have our own

20:58

private information on which we could base that

21:00

decision, but if we can also

21:02

see what decisions were made by others

21:05

before us, we might think

21:07

maybe they know something I don't.

21:10

We set aside what we originally thought

21:13

and make the same decision as everyone else.

21:16

Cascades can be sparked by an initial

21:19

choice made by just a few people, and

21:22

they can lead us astray. Often

21:24

other people don't know something we don't. We

21:27

join a queue for a public toilet

21:29

cubicle that turns out to be empty.

21:32

Everyone just assumed that the first

21:34

person in line must have checked. But

21:37

cascades can also emboldness.

21:40

Do we protest against a repressive regime?

21:43

Our private information says, of course not,

21:46

will be arrested or worse. Then

21:48

we see a few people singing psalms,

21:52

or a few dozen blocking a removals

21:54

truck. They don't look afraid.

21:57

Maybe they know something I don't. In

22:02

Timishwara, the crowd forget

22:04

all about the priest laslow Tokas.

22:07

They're emboldened.

22:08

Now.

22:08

To let us out all their anger,

22:11

they turn on a bookshop. It's shelves

22:14

piled high with the latest best

22:16

seller Romania on the Way

22:18

of building up the multilaterally developed

22:20

Socialist Economy by Nikolai

22:23

Chowchescu. They smash the

22:25

bookshop's door, throw the books

22:28

into the square, and set them alight.

22:30

They break into the local headquarters

22:32

of the Communist Party, rip down

22:35

all the portraits of the Chowchescus and

22:37

add them to the bonfire. Then

22:41

the shootings start. Machine

22:43

guns spray indiscriminately

22:46

into the crowd. How many

22:48

are dead is? It later turns

22:50

out not quite a hundred,

22:53

But in the chaos, the carnage seems

22:56

much greater. It's surely

22:58

one thousand, ten thousand, sixty

23:01

thousand. Rumors of the

23:03

massacre start to spread, and

23:05

the rumors are impossible for officials

23:07

to quell because one knows

23:10

you can't believe a word you read in the newspaper.

23:15

Back in Book Arrest, two

23:17

hundred and fifty miles to the east, Nikolai

23:20

blames foreign enemies. He

23:23

decides to give a speech to show

23:25

the world that the Romanian people

23:28

still support him. They

23:30

never realized, it, says their

23:32

son Valentine Chowshesku.

23:35

They never realized that they

23:37

were not loved. Nikolai

23:41

orders tens of thousands of workers

23:43

to be busted into central Book Arrest.

23:46

It's a well worn routine. The

23:49

workers are given banners to hold with

23:51

communist slogans or

23:53

big photos of Nikolai and Elena

23:56

playing clothes. Members of the Securitat

23:59

stand at the front to lead the applause

24:02

and look enthusiastic for the

24:04

television cameras comrades

24:07

begins Nikolai a warm

24:10

revolutionary greeting, but

24:14

then there's noise from

24:16

the crowd. A screen,

24:20

a shout. What are

24:22

they saying?

24:24

Tim Mishwara, Tim

24:26

Mishwara, everyone's

24:29

heard the rumors of a massacre in

24:31

Timishwara on

24:34

live television.

24:36

Nikolai pauses. He

24:38

looks confused. He

24:41

raises his hand as if to quell applause,

24:43

but this isn't applause, and

24:46

he doesn't quell it. An

24:48

apparatic appears behind him

24:51

and mutters in the dictator's ear. The

24:54

microphone picks it up. They're

24:57

getting in.

25:02

In a village outside of brook Arrest,

25:05

thirty five year old factory worker

25:08

Nikolai Petrish is cleaning

25:10

his thatcher when a car

25:12

pulls up at the roadside. He

25:15

recognizes the driver. It's doctor

25:17

Dekker from the local hospital, and

25:19

that old man in the passenger

25:22

seat is that Petrashaw

25:26

watches in astonishment

25:29

as Nikolai and Elena Chowshsku

25:32

get out of doctor Deker's car and

25:34

then get straight into his car. They're

25:37

followed by a big man who

25:39

waves his garden at Petra Shaw, get

25:42

in and drive, he says. Petra

25:45

Shaw gets in and drives.

25:49

He turns on the radio. Out

25:51

booms the jubilant voice of

25:53

a dissident poet who's been under house

25:55

arrest. At last, we are

25:58

free. Turn that

26:00

off, says the old dictator. Petra

26:03

Shaw turns it off. On

26:05

the road ahead, villagers are gathered

26:08

in the street in spontaneous

26:10

celebration. As Petra Shaw

26:12

drives past the crowd, someone

26:15

notices who's in his passenger seat.

26:17

Stones rain down on the car.

26:20

Petra Shaw's terrified. He stands

26:23

on the accelerator, urging the little data

26:25

onwards.

26:26

But where to.

26:28

The bodyguard suggests they seek refuge

26:31

at a steel works that's somewhere near

26:33

here, though he's not exactly sure

26:35

how to get there. Stop over

26:37

there, he says to Petra Shaw, I'll

26:39

go and find someone to ask directions. The

26:42

bodyguard gets out and

26:44

doesn't come back. Some

26:47

children walk past the car and start

26:49

to shout, hey, look he's in there. Now.

26:53

Elena's got a pistol. She

26:55

puts it to Petroshaw's neck. Get

26:57

us out of here, she says. Petra

27:00

Shaw drives off. Where

27:02

can he take the old dictator and

27:04

his wife. They pass

27:06

a nunnery. Perhaps the old

27:09

couple can seek refuge there. Get

27:12

lost, say the nuns. Maybe

27:14

they'd heard about the toilet paper. There's

27:17

a hotel for Communist party officials.

27:20

Surely they'll take him in. Sorry,

27:22

we're fully booked. Petra

27:25

Shaw realizes they're close to an

27:27

agricultural institute. He

27:29

knows the director, why not take

27:31

them there? The director

27:34

is in his office, glued to the television

27:36

news on

27:38

the run.

27:42

The army is on the side of the people.

27:44

That loyalists and the sec.

27:48

Into the director's office, bursts

27:51

a white faced Nikolai Petrashaw.

27:54

I've got the show.

27:55

Escu to the back of my car, he says.

27:57

The director is appalled.

27:59

What did you bring them here for? Corti

28:04

retales will be back in a moment.

28:20

Picture the scene. A palace

28:22

and a siege. Protesters rage

28:24

unchecked to its hallways, pillaging,

28:27

looting, smashing. A

28:30

fallen leader scrambles to escape

28:32

by helicopter from the palace roof. That's

28:36

what happens in the HBO series

28:38

The Regime. But how

28:41

do all powerful dictators,

28:43

whether the fictional Elena Vernum

28:46

or the all too real Nikolai

28:48

and Elena Chowshscu find

28:50

their power suddenly evaporating.

28:54

The answer turns on a strange seeming

28:57

question, what do we know

28:59

about what other people know? Let

29:02

me give you an example from a very different situation.

29:06

Imagine that you're on a date. The evening

29:08

seems to have on well, you say,

29:11

would you like to come back to my place for coffee?

29:15

Better not comes the reply, I

29:17

can't drink coffee late at night. It keeps

29:19

me up, except,

29:22

as Seinfeld's George Costanzo

29:25

once realized just a little too late, Coffee's

29:28

not coffee. Coffee

29:31

is sex. So why

29:33

don't we just say, would you like

29:35

to come back to my place for sex?

29:41

The linguist Stephen Pinker is intrigued

29:44

by that question, why

29:46

do we use indirect speech

29:48

such as euphemisms and innuendos.

29:51

His answer traces back to what seems

29:53

like an obscure distinction made

29:56

in philosophy journals in the nineteen seventies

29:59

between common knowledge

30:01

on the one hand, and mutual

30:03

or shared knowledge on the other. It's

30:07

a slippery difference to grasp, so so let's

30:09

explore it with an example. What economic

30:12

theorists would call a game, a

30:16

baker has to decide what to bake to

30:18

sell at the market. One

30:20

thing she could bake is a batch of

30:22

buns for hot dogs. That would

30:24

net her the most profit, but only

30:28

if the butcher has decided to make

30:30

sausages. If the butcher comes

30:32

to market with something other than sausages,

30:35

nobody will buy the baker's buns. This

30:38

is a variant of what game theorists

30:41

call a coordination problem.

30:44

If the bakers and butchers could agree

30:46

to make bums and sausages, they'd both be better

30:48

off, but they can't talk to each other.

30:51

Each has to decide based on their

30:53

expectation of what the other will

30:55

do. When Stephen Pinker

30:57

and his colleagues ran this experiment, they

31:00

found that most bakers sensibly

31:02

chose not to gamble on the butcher's

31:05

having made sausages. They played

31:07

safe by baking something other than bums.

31:10

Then the experimenters changed

31:12

the setup. They had a messenger

31:14

visit each baker and say just

31:17

say no of talk to the butcher.

31:20

He's aware that hot dogs will fetch a

31:22

high price at the market. This

31:25

is shared knowledge. The

31:27

baker knows that the butcher knows.

31:30

Is that enough for them? To gamble on baking the

31:32

bums. This time, about

31:34

half the baker's decided to risk it. Then,

31:37

in a final twist, the experimenters

31:40

made an announcement over a loud speaker,

31:43

there's a great profit margin on hot

31:45

dogs. This time, the

31:48

vast majority of the bakers chose

31:50

to bake the bums. They knew

31:52

the butchers had heard the announcement too,

31:55

and felt sure they'd bring the sausages.

31:58

The loud speaker turned shared

32:00

knowledge into common knowledge.

32:04

On the surface, that might not seem like much

32:06

of a change. After all, with

32:09

shared knowledge, the baker nw the butcher

32:11

knew, but the loud speaker

32:13

changed how people acted. Stephen

32:17

Pinker argues that this transition from

32:19

shared to common knowledge is

32:21

a powerful explanation for a range

32:24

of puzzles, including why we

32:26

say do you want to come in for a coffee?

32:29

We know it's about sex, but that's shared

32:32

knowledge. Asking do

32:34

you want to have sex would make it

32:36

common knowledge, and that could make

32:38

the situation far more awkward.

32:42

Common knowledge, says Pinker,

32:44

creates a distinctive cognitive

32:47

state. It happens when shared

32:50

knowledge gets out there in

32:52

a way that's impossible to ignore.

32:57

Dud tovirus ship

33:00

pretty.

33:02

In book Arrest, Nikolai Choschescu

33:04

begins his speech comrades

33:07

a warm revolutionary green. Everyone

33:11

who's been bust in to be part of that crowd

33:14

hates Chowsescu. They

33:16

all know that everyone else like them hates

33:18

chow Escu too, But that

33:21

shared knowledge has never before

33:23

been enough to spark collective

33:25

action to bring down the regime.

33:28

At every previous rally like this,

33:30

for years and years, people

33:33

have held up their banners, applauded

33:35

on command, glanced nervously

33:37

at the guns of the Securitat, and

33:40

gone back home to complain

33:42

to each other in private. Today,

33:46

in the shadow of the protests and the

33:48

killings in Timishwara, that

33:51

changes a scream,

33:53

a shout, a chant,

33:56

Timishwara, tim Mishwara,

34:00

chow Chescu's pause, his

34:02

confused look. It's just

34:04

like the loud speaker announcement in the Butcher

34:07

Baker game. Suddenly shared

34:10

knowledge becomes common knowledge

34:12

out there, impossible to ignore.

34:15

And just like in the Butcher Baker game,

34:18

the switch from shared to common

34:20

knowledge solves the coordination

34:23

problem. Everyone spontaneously

34:26

decides to act together. In

34:29

Timishwara, the crowd had

34:31

grown gradually as people

34:33

observed others choosing to join.

34:36

In Bucharest, the crowd was pre

34:38

gathered and its mood

34:41

changed, like the flipping of

34:43

a switch. All around

34:45

the city, people watching

34:48

on the television saw chowshesku

34:50

pause. Then the screen went dead,

34:52

the television director choosing

34:55

not to show what was happening. They

34:57

understood all at once. They

35:00

left their houses and took to the

35:02

streets. An information cascade

35:05

had started the revolution. Common

35:07

knowledge was about to finish the job

35:15

inside the palace, with protesters

35:17

breaking in the Chaosescu's

35:20

face of choice. Take

35:22

the lift down to the basement and try

35:24

to make their escape through a secret tunnel,

35:27

or take the lift up to the roof, where

35:29

a helicopter awaits to whisk them away.

35:32

They choose the roof. Nikolai

35:35

and Elina cram into the helicopter, along

35:37

with two bodyguards and two henchmen

35:39

who are also keen to get away. It's

35:42

too many. The helicopter struggles

35:44

to lift. Where too,

35:47

asks the pilot Snagov.

35:49

The dictator says, a country

35:52

palace not far from Broucharest. The

35:54

pilot lands the helicopter. Nikolai

35:57

goes inside to make phone calls. The

36:00

pilot turns on the radio news.

36:03

The army has changed sides,

36:06

he hears, but some secure

36:08

Tarte loyalists are still fighting

36:10

for the old dictator. The pilot

36:12

calls his superior what

36:15

should he do? Figure

36:17

it out for yourself, comes the reply.

36:21

Power it seems is

36:23

fast draining away from the Chowshescus.

36:27

And here they are again, still with

36:29

the bodyguards, but the henchmen have

36:31

decided to take their chances on their own. Nikolai

36:35

tells the pilot to fly to an air

36:37

force base. The pilot

36:39

thinks, I'm not doing that. The

36:42

army is supporting the revolution. Now what

36:44

if they shoot us down? But

36:46

then the bodyguards also have guns?

36:49

What to do? The

36:52

pilot takes off, then makes up

36:54

an excuse. Something's wrong.

36:56

We have to land here in a field by

36:58

a country road. Nikolai,

37:01

Elena and one of the bodyguards walk

37:03

to the road and flag down

37:06

a passing thatcha the

37:08

country dot to Nikolay decker.

37:11

The doctor dumps the Chowchescu's on Nikolai

37:13

Petreshaw, who offloads them

37:16

onto the director of the Agricultural

37:18

Institute. The director

37:21

calls the police. They can

37:23

decide what to do with the old dictator and his

37:25

wife. Nikolai keeps

37:27

looking at his watch and glancing

37:29

impatiently at the window, as

37:31

if expecting the secure Tarte to

37:34

rescue him at any moment. The

37:36

door opens and it's

37:39

not the securit Tate. It's

37:42

two local policemen. They put

37:44

Nikolai and Elaina in the back of their

37:46

police car and take them to an

37:48

army barracks. Nikolai

37:51

seems to assume he's still in charge.

37:55

Well, what's the situation, he says to

37:57

the major at the barracks, Give me your report.

38:00

The major explains his instructions.

38:04

I'll protect you from the mob, he says,

38:07

and wait for the new government in bookret

38:09

to tell me what to do. Nikolai

38:12

and Elena spend three nights

38:14

in the barracks, complaining about

38:16

the uncomfortable bed, the smelly

38:18

toilets, and the food. I

38:21

can't eat this, they say, when

38:23

offered salami, bread and cheese. Its

38:26

normal army rations. Their guards

38:29

explain this stuff's inedible.

38:31

At home, we have proper food. Then

38:34

they try a different tack. Take

38:36

me out of here, says Nikolai. I

38:39

could see that you get one million

38:41

dollars on

38:44

Christmas Day, helicopters

38:46

arrived from brook Arrest with lawyers,

38:49

judges, and a video recorder.

38:52

Some members of the old regime have

38:54

moved quickly to seize power, and

38:57

they made the decision the Chowsescus

39:00

must die. They

39:02

hastily put on a show trial, and

39:04

it's all a bit of a farce. The

39:07

prosecutor accuses them of killing

39:09

sixty thousand people in Timishwara,

39:12

which it turns out wasn't

39:14

actually true. He goes

39:17

Elena, who wrote your scientific

39:19

papers. You can't talk

39:22

to me like that, snaps Elena.

39:24

You smuggled money out of the country, says

39:26

the prosecutor. Where's your proof.

39:29

The couple say you ate

39:31

well while everyone else had meager rations.

39:34

Nikolai keeps repeating, I

39:37

do not recognize this tribunal.

39:40

No matter. The judge gives

39:42

his verdict guilty.

39:46

It's only as their hands are tied together

39:48

behind their backs that Nikolai and

39:50

Elena seem finally to

39:52

understand what's about to happen.

39:55

Elena snaps at a soldier, go

39:58

fuck your mother. They're led

40:00

into the courtyard where

40:02

the firing squad jump the gun.

40:05

By the time the cameraman's ready it's

40:08

all over. He can only film

40:10

close ups of the bodies. For

40:15

a while, it feels like Catharsis,

40:19

But then the doubts set in. Was

40:21

that really the best way to do it? The

40:24

couple's son Valentine, doesn't

40:27

think so. The execution

40:29

was a political mistake. He says they

40:32

should have said that they were shot while trying to escape.

40:36

Maybe I can't help

40:38

wishing that they'd had a proper trial, with

40:40

detailed charges and evidence.

40:43

The best way to rebuke a dictator is

40:46

by upholding due process,

40:49

that fundamental virtue that

40:51

dictators erode. But

40:55

if you're tempted to feel sorry

40:57

for Nikolai and Elena,

40:59

I suggest you visit their offensively

41:02

opulent palace in book Arrest,

41:06

Your sympathy will vanish

41:09

as suddenly as their grip

41:11

on power. This

41:18

episode of Cautionary Tales was produced

41:20

in partnership with HBO and

41:22

their new series The Regime starring

41:25

Kate Winslett. You can stream The Regime

41:27

now on Max, and you can find

41:29

Cautionary Tales with Me Tim Harford wherever

41:32

you get your podcasts. This episode

41:34

relied on books about the Chowshescus by John

41:36

Sweeney, Mark Almond, and Edward

41:38

Bare. For a full list of our sources,

41:41

see the show notes at Timharford dot

41:43

com. Up next, I'll

41:45

be sitting down with Regime creator

41:47

Will Tracy to discuss the thinking

41:50

and research behind the series. When

42:04

it came to writing HBO's new

42:06

show, The Regime, the series creator

42:08

Will Try drew inspiration not

42:10

just from the Chaoushescus in Romania, but from

42:12

real rulers around the world and throughout

42:15

history, from cruel autocrats such

42:17

as Bashar al Assad in Syria to democratically

42:19

elected but unconventional populists

42:22

such as Georgia Maloney and Donald

42:24

Trump. These governments offer a

42:26

plethora of cautionary tales, and I'm curious

42:28

about the research and thinking behind

42:31

the show. And I'm delighted to say that Siria's

42:33

creator, Will Tracy joins me

42:35

now Welcome to Cautionary Tales. Will,

42:37

Thanks Tim. One theme

42:40

that struck us as we were thinking about

42:42

cautionary tales inspired by the Regime

42:45

was this idea of germaphobia. And

42:48

Elena Vernham is terrified of mold,

42:51

and this idea that black mold is going to get

42:53

into her lungs. But as we started to look

42:55

into this, we realized this is not

42:57

just something you made up. No idiosyncratically,

43:01

it turns out there's something of a running theme with dictators

43:03

and germaphobia.

43:04

Yeah.

43:05

I think for many of them it might stem

43:07

from this idea of purity. And I think, obviously

43:09

with a kind of a xenophobic

43:12

or nationalistic state, that makes

43:14

some sense. Right, if you're constantly talking

43:16

about the purity of culture, the

43:18

purity of thought, politics,

43:21

and the purity of genetics, it would make sense

43:23

that you become quite paranoid

43:25

about the idea of contamination generally

43:28

speaking. But you know, I also think that,

43:31

and this is certainly the case for the character and the show,

43:34

that the germophobia it's an excuse

43:36

to isolate from the mess of other people. The

43:39

more that you create this pretext

43:41

of contamination, the fear of contamination,

43:43

the more you're able to kind of remove

43:45

yourself from people and stay within your

43:47

bubble, the less that you'll have to actually

43:50

confront people and

43:52

hear about whatever their personal

43:54

messes, whatever their problems are, problems

43:57

which probably your state that

43:59

you've created is the culprit of and

44:01

so you can kind of remove yourself from that, you

44:04

don't really have to confront what's wrong with the lives

44:06

of the people you are leading.

44:09

Yeah, that's interesting because I had thought,

44:11

in part, well, maybe this is just about

44:13

being famous. This is a

44:15

celebrity problem. As a celebrity,

44:17

Yeah, everyone wants to get close to

44:19

you, everyone wants the selfie, everyone wants

44:21

to shake your hand, just to touch you.

44:24

That just must get quite wearing

44:26

for someone who can never get away from that. And

44:29

you know, I thought of the germophobia was possibly a

44:31

little bit of an extreme response to

44:34

that. But yeah, there's

44:36

the politics of it as well.

44:38

Yeah, well there's also it's an externalization

44:40

of an internal feeling that something might be wrong,

44:43

that everything that I've created

44:46

might come crashing down, that

44:48

this is all going to end, that there's going to be reprisals,

44:50

that there's going to be the hague, that I might

44:52

be hanged in the town square, That maybe my ideas

44:55

are wrong, that maybe I've created

44:57

something wrong, that there's some sort of corruption

44:59

or sickness that's in me that has

45:01

created this world that I live in. But

45:03

if you externalize all of those feelings

45:05

and kind of repress them and shut them out and

45:08

convince yourself that well, no, there's something

45:10

in the walls that's trying to

45:12

get me, or there's something in the air, there's something on

45:14

people's hands or on surfaces, and it's

45:16

that contamination that's trying to destroy me.

45:19

I think it probably becomes a bit easier psychologically

45:23

for these kinds of narcissistic personalities

45:25

to go through their days and the comfort that what

45:27

they're doing is right.

45:29

Yes, and in the regime as well, it

45:31

becomes a metaphor for corruption.

45:33

Yes. Absolutely.

45:34

Herbert Zuback is telling Elena that

45:36

the mold is really the corruption of the people

45:38

around her and her weakness exactly.

45:41

Yes, her microphobia is delusional.

45:44

There is not black mold in the walls. It's

45:46

trying to kill her. That he correctly diagnoses.

45:49

But I think he's

45:52

somewhat incorrectly diagnoses what the underlying

45:54

problem of the regime is. The

45:57

underlying problem, of course, is her and her narcissism,

46:00

and I think he likes to convince her that it

46:02

is not. It's the foreign bodies who

46:04

threaten you, the foreign bodies of NATO

46:06

and this fifth column of

46:09

corrupt ministers within your palace.

46:11

One of the things I enjoyed

46:13

doing while watching the regime

46:16

was playing spot the Despot because

46:20

of course, some of it is it's from your imagination. Some

46:22

of it is purely fictional. Yeah,

46:24

it's a mix, but some of it is based

46:26

on real dictators, that it is inspired by the behavior

46:28

of real dictators. And one I wished

46:31

I'd had more time to look into is

46:33

the Emperor of Ethiopia, highly

46:35

Selassie. So tell me about him and how

46:37

he inspired some of the scenes.

46:40

I was reading a book by Kapachinski

46:42

called The Emperor about the last days of Higley Selassie.

46:45

You know, it kind of brings you through the end of his regime,

46:47

but it's also it's just kind of a look of

46:49

what his day to day life

46:52

was like within that bubble that he had created.

46:54

When he would get up, what do would eat for breakfast,

46:56

how he would dress, who address him. As

46:59

the walls were closing in and

47:01

the country was sort of spiraling into

47:04

famine and unrest, there was still this kind

47:06

of immaculate little jewel box

47:08

of a palace that he lived in, and

47:11

it was just a question amongst his servants

47:13

and bureaucrats to what extent he was aware,

47:15

really aware of what was happening outside

47:18

that jewel box, Whether he knew

47:20

or didn't know, and how much

47:22

he wished to conceal about that knowledge.

47:24

In the case of Selassie's quite different from other

47:27

dictators, and that he didn't react

47:29

with extreme emotion

47:31

or anger or desperation as the

47:34

wall started to close in.

47:35

He sort of maintained this.

47:37

Perfect facade of calm

47:39

as long as he sort of presented this veneer

47:41

of kind of placid lack

47:43

of concern that would not only

47:46

deny that there was a problem, but also

47:48

would kind of bolster his own sense of himself

47:50

as someone who was unshakable. That

47:53

in the end backfired in a way because

47:55

that unshakeability and

47:57

that seeming calm and placidity

47:59

just came off as cluelessness, completely

48:02

out of touch.

48:02

Yeah, am I right in thinking that the flower

48:05

garden scenes in the conservatory

48:07

are inspired by Yeah, something

48:09

he used to do.

48:10

Yeah, he would sort of in his daily constitutional

48:13

he would sort of walk around the

48:15

flower gardens. They had a kind of zoo within

48:17

the palace, and he would feed

48:20

meat to the lion, and he would water the

48:22

flowers. And while he was doing all of

48:24

this, his palace spymaster would

48:27

give him the update on

48:29

what's happening. Not only what's happening outside

48:32

in the countryside and also on

48:34

the world stage, but what's the palace

48:37

intel, what are they whispering, what are they saying?

48:40

And the way Selassie would handle this was

48:42

quite similar to how the character on the

48:44

show handles it, which is to offer

48:46

no reply to just simply

48:48

listen. If you only

48:50

listen and you offer no reply, you

48:53

immediately are sort of baking in a plausible deniability.

48:56

Later.

48:56

It's quite easy to reshape

48:59

your thoughts and reactions to intelligence

49:02

you're receiving later if you say nothing while

49:04

you're receiving the intelligence.

49:06

Yes, they're very striking scenes.

49:09

So you studied all sorts of dictatorships

49:12

while you were researching the show, and I'm

49:14

curious as to whether you think that

49:16

fundamentally they're all

49:19

alike, or whether it's more accurate

49:21

to say that every single one is different.

49:23

I would say I have noticed

49:26

maybe a few commonalities amongst

49:29

the leaders of these regimes,

49:31

as opposed to commonalities amongst the regimes

49:34

themselves. One commonality

49:36

that I have noticed amongst

49:39

many of these leaders is that when

49:42

they first arrive on the scene, there's

49:45

something off about them. They

49:47

look a little funny, or they sound

49:50

a little funny in some way, they don't

49:52

fit the mold of what a head of state

49:54

is supposed to look like. They might even

49:56

be a little bit laughable because they are so new

49:59

and so different. You know, in the media

50:01

or pundit class, or just generally amongst

50:03

the general population, the tendency

50:06

is to laugh because it's so new and

50:08

so odd and so and you're not supposed to

50:10

talk like that or sound like that when you're in that position.

50:13

That's not the visual that we're used

50:15

to seeing on the screen when we think of a leader.

50:18

What these autocratic figures often do

50:20

them is they take these idiosyncrasies

50:23

and they weaponize them, and they turn them into

50:25

superpowers. They turn them in the thing that makes them

50:27

unique and authentic, and they

50:29

wry that feeling of uniqueness and

50:32

authenticity to power. But

50:34

of course, you know what happens is that they

50:37

never forget they used to laugh

50:39

at me.

50:39

That sort of.

50:40

Insecurity, I think is hardwired

50:43

in the personality of a lot of authoritarians.

50:45

I was not respected, I wasn't taken seriously

50:47

by the establishment or by the elite.

50:50

I'm not taken seriously on the world stage,

50:52

and I demand to be taken seriously

50:55

because I'm a serious figure. I'm not a laughable

50:57

figure. What happens, of course,

51:00

in order to get back at their

51:02

alleged enemies and all the people

51:04

who laughed at them. The more power that

51:06

they accrue, they become increasing

51:09

out of touch and thus increasingly

51:12

somewhat ridiculous, and so the problem just

51:14

sort of compounds itself, and

51:16

I have noticed that being an issue amongst

51:21

otherwise quite dissimilar

51:23

personalities who become authoritarians.

51:26

Did you also draw inspiration from

51:29

some of the democratic populists

51:31

in Europe, people like Marine Lapenn

51:35

Maloney in Italy? To what extent

51:37

are they inspirations for Elena

51:39

Vernham?

51:40

Yeah, certainly. Le Penn was a

51:42

big influence, a seemingly

51:45

mainstream figure who was actually smuggling

51:47

in some quite insidious

51:49

and racist views from the

51:51

Party of the Father, Right, Marina Lapenn,

51:54

what she's been able to do with

51:56

alarming success is sort of sanitize

51:59

the party. You know, at heart, it's

52:02

not very different from anything her father

52:04

was espousing, but it sort of cleaned

52:06

up and made more

52:09

protogenic ortellogenic, it sounds

52:11

a little nicer. It helps in a way that

52:14

it's given. I think very consciously

52:16

what she has I think called herself a

52:18

sort of woman's touch, right, this feeling that

52:21

it's coming from. It's a softer place,

52:23

right. It doesn't feel as hard as her father,

52:25

right. It feels in some ways gentler

52:27

and more nurturing, more caring. She's

52:30

been able to use her status as a woman

52:32

in some ways in a very weaponized

52:34

and cynical way. And I always thought that

52:37

would be more interesting for this character

52:39

of the authoritarian this show to be a.

52:40

Woman leader rather than a male leader.

52:43

I think we've seen that archetype of a strong

52:45

man so often, and you

52:47

know, what would that be like to see someone who uses

52:50

the optics of femininity in a

52:52

really destructive way, but also

52:54

in a way to kind of win the approbation

52:56

and investment of the West. She

52:59

knows this will look good, a strong

53:01

woman leader in the region, and ignore

53:04

the fact that I'm actually just as repressive

53:06

as any male. I kind of have the

53:08

air of being new, modern

53:10

progressive.

53:11

I wanted to ask about the parallels

53:14

and differences between dictatorships and democracies.

53:17

Donald Trump was democratically elected and

53:19

then he was democratically rejected,

53:22

but some of the techniques that he uses

53:24

to win power or to justify what he does

53:26

are the same techniques that dictators use. And

53:29

is it a bright line between dictatorship

53:32

and democracy or is there a certain leadership style

53:35

that works in both.

53:36

Hmm, boy, that's a great question. I

53:38

know the UK certainly has its own problems

53:41

politically, but I do sometimes

53:43

think about the usefulness

53:45

of having a culture

53:48

in which all the focus and all

53:50

the bright light, and all of the blame

53:53

and credit and the kind of heat

53:55

and celebrity of politics

53:57

isn't all focused on this one person,

54:00

which very much feels like it is in

54:02

America that this person has to be everything

54:05

to everybody.

54:06

We have to have this.

54:07

Feeling of this person being the

54:09

leader who brings us into the fray,

54:12

rather than a leader of their

54:15

party or a leader of parliament,

54:17

one sort of heater state functionary. And then you have

54:19

another kind of ceremonial, maybe

54:22

monarchical functionary who

54:24

can kind of take some of that heat away

54:26

from the bureaucratic leader. I

54:29

do think sometimes in America you dovetail

54:32

into the possibility of

54:35

a demagogic figure because

54:37

we kind of place all of our tension on

54:39

this one person meaning everything to everybody.

54:42

One of the things we always try to do on caution

54:45

detales is to learn from the

54:47

mistakes of the past. Do

54:49

you think that there was a mistake that dictators

54:52

make over and over again, some common

54:54

theme.

54:55

You know? I think that sometimes it's an

54:57

inability to be able to tell a salami

55:00

from a suckling pig, if you will,

55:02

sort of that inability to know how

55:04

to do these small, incremental

55:08

terrible things in little steps,

55:10

and then going for the big brass

55:12

ring once you feel that your

55:15

power is unchecked and that you can do anything. Putin's

55:18

big mistake is something that you will see quite

55:20

a bit, right, There's a similarity

55:22

there between what Putin did

55:25

with Crimea versus Ukraine and

55:27

what Hitler did in Poland

55:29

versus Russia. Right, it's inability

55:32

to see the task in front of you because

55:34

you've had so much success, or if you

55:36

had so much appearance of success.

55:40

Do you regard the regime as a cautionary tale?

55:42

Yeah, I mean, in a sense, the regime has

55:44

this other layer on top where the cautionary

55:46

tales not just about how a

55:49

seeming democracy can fall into autocracy,

55:51

but it's also how democracies

55:54

around the world can abet and aid

55:57

autocracies around the world. Some

55:59

of these states because of their geographical

56:02

placement, or because of a natural resource

56:04

they have, or because of their usefulness

56:06

as a foil against the common enemy. It

56:09

becomes very easy for an

56:11

autocracy to become a client state

56:14

of a so called progressive

56:17

Western democracy like the United States.

56:19

You know, I think we can all think of the examples.

56:22

I suppose the cautionary tale of how

56:24

to avoid finding yourself

56:27

in a country like the country in the Regime,

56:29

but also how to question

56:33

the way your own government interacts

56:35

with oppress of regimes around the world. So

56:37

probably more in that sense, it's a cautionary

56:40

tale.

56:43

HBO's The Regime is available

56:46

to stream now on Max Will

56:48

Tracy thank you so much for joining us.

56:50

Thank you, Tim.

56:58

Cautionary Tales is written by me Tim

57:00

Harford with Andrew Wright. It's produced

57:03

by Alice Fines with support from Marilyn

57:05

Rust. The sound design and original

57:08

music is the work of Pascal Warriz.

57:10

Sarah Nix edited the scripts. It

57:13

features the voice talents of Ben Crowe, Melanie

57:16

Guttridge, Stella Harford, Jammas

57:18

Saunders, and Rufus Wright. The

57:20

show also wouldn't have been possible

57:22

without the work of Jacob Weisberg, Ryan

57:25

Dilly, Greta Cohne, Vital

57:27

Millard, John Schnaz, Eric's

57:29

handler, Carrie Brody, and Christina

57:31

Sullivan. Cautionary Tales

57:34

is a production of Pushkin Industries.

57:37

It's recorded at Wardoor Studios in

57:39

London by Tom Berry. If

57:41

you like the show, please remember

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