0:00

Hi, Cancelled listeners. Before we

0:02

get to the episode, we want to take a moment

0:05

to address the United States Supreme Court decision

0:07

to overturn Roe v. Wade on June 24,

0:09

which stripped away the right

0:12

to have a safe and legal abortion. Restricting

0:15

access to comprehensive reproductive care,

0:17

including abortion, threatens the

0:19

health and independence of all people,

0:22

which we've already seen with abortion bans and restrictions

0:25

in countries like Poland and Malta. This

0:27

decision has dire consequences and

0:29

could have harsh repercussions for other

0:31

landmark decisions within the United States. We

0:34

encourage our audience, American and otherwise,

0:36

to learn more about what you can do to help at

0:39

podvoices.help.

0:42

We encourage you to speak up,

0:43

take care and spread the word.

0:46

On the 15th of February 2023,

0:50

before a hastily assembled press pack, Scotland's

0:53

First Minister Nicola Sturgeon informed

0:55

Edinburgh and the world of her decision

0:57

to resign after eight years in the post.

1:00

The personal cost of political theatre had become

1:02

all too high for the longest serving

1:05

First Minister in Scotland's history. The

1:07

announcement dominated news cycles. Its

1:10

shock factor plus questions of Scottish

1:12

independence and the future of the Scottish

1:14

National Party – SNP – was

1:17

scrutinised from all sides by political

1:19

analysts. As Sturgeon made clear her

1:21

plans to step away from the political fray, the

1:23

door was opened for a leadership contest and

1:26

a new contender to succeed her in leading the

1:28

SNP. Amidst the furore that descended

1:30

upon the party, one forerunner in

1:32

particular made waves. The Cabinet

1:35

Secretary for Finance and the Economy

1:37

and the Member of the Scottish Parliament, MSP

1:40

for Skye, Lockerbie and Badenoch,

1:42

Kate Forbes. Although debates

1:44

for the SNP leadership have finished with Humza

1:46

Yousaf, not Forbes, as the victorious

1:49

candidate, today we're exploring a

1:51

debate of a different nature that has taken

1:53

place over the past few months. One that

1:55

hinges on Forbes' personal politics.

1:58

Welcome to Cancelled. I'm

2:00

your host, Leah, and this is the show where we look

2:02

back at some of the biggest and most bizarre

2:05

attempts to cancel people, corporations,

2:07

and even countries. You may think the subject

2:10

of our very rigorous and academic study deserve

2:12

public disdain. You may think it's all

2:14

a gross injustice, but it doesn't matter, because

2:17

all of them are judged in the court of public opinion

2:19

and ultimately cancelled.

2:25

Late Forbes' roots lie in northern

2:27

Scotland's Dingwall, where she was born in 1990,

2:29

but her early childhood

2:32

saw her live between Scotland and India, as

2:34

the latter was where her father worked for a variety

2:36

of religious charities. At one time,

2:39

she was taught in a Scottish Gaelic school, and

2:41

another she attended a school on the foothills

2:43

of the Himalayas, before returning to Scotland

2:46

for good at the age of 15. After

2:48

finishing her schooling at Dingwall Academy, Forbes

2:51

completed her undergraduate degree in history

2:53

at the University of Cambridge, before

2:55

heading back north to complete a master's

2:57

degree in diaspora and migration history

2:59

at the University of Edinburgh. However,

3:02

between these two degrees, Forbes made

3:04

a decision that shaped the rest of her career. In 2011,

3:08

she joined the SNP. This

3:10

choice was, no doubt, bolstered by the

3:12

decision to work within the Scottish Parliament and

3:15

become a researcher for David Thompson, the

3:17

then-SNP MSP for Sky,

3:20

Lockerber and Badenoch. After this role

3:22

concluded, the Scotswoman dipped her toes

3:24

in different industries. A stint as

3:26

a campaign and policies officer for Oxfam

3:28

Scotland, and then two years at Barclays

3:31

after she qualified as a chartered accountant.

3:33

But, as it turns out,

3:35

Kate Forbes was after more. In 2015,

3:39

Thompson, the MSP that Forbes had researched

3:41

under, announced his intention at

3:44

the Scottish Parliament election the following year

3:46

and an all-women shortlist was drawn up by

3:49

local SNP members to replace him.

3:51

Forbes, who was part of an SNP campaign

3:54

to address the Highlands' gender pay gap, was

3:56

selected as a candidate for the Sky, Lockerber

3:59

and Badenoch campaign. constituency. When

4:01

the 2016 election finally came

4:03

around, Hersey in Holy Rood was

4:05

cemented with a majority of 9,043 votes, almost double

4:07

Thompson's 4,995 in 2011. Serving

4:15

from the backbench, Forbes sat on a number

4:17

of committees, such as the Scottish Parliament's

4:20

Environment, Climate Change and Land Reform Committee,

4:22

while also serving as parliamentary liaison

4:24

officer for finance and the Constitution, duties

4:27

that don't necessarily lend themselves to political

4:30

stardom. Regardless, the Dingwall

4:32

native created a stir. In 2017, she launched

4:34

the Final

4:36

Straw, a successful national

4:38

campaign to bound the use of plastic straws in Scotland

4:41

with the prohibition of single-use plastic

4:43

later introduced in 2022. In 2018, a fluent Gaelic speaker, Forbes

4:46

delivered an entire plenary speech

4:52

in Gaelic to the Scottish Parliament Chamber,

4:55

signaling a commitment to protecting the language

4:57

and other local issues specific to the Highlands.

5:00

With that, she became the second female

5:02

MSP and the first in the current

5:04

Scottish Parliament Chamber to give a speech

5:06

in Gaelic. Following her appointment

5:09

to Deputy Finance Secretary in 2018, Forbes would make history again

5:13

and again. Hey

5:14

cancelled listeners, I'm Ruby

5:16

Rare and I'm here to talk to you about In

5:19

Touch, a new documentary series from

5:21

Broccoli Productions. I'll

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be drawing from my own personal and professional

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5:27

and playful education around the different ways

5:30

we connect to our bodies and to each other

5:32

through pleasure, nudity, gender

5:35

non-conformity, kink and so much more.

5:37

I'll also be unpacking sex as a survivor

5:39

and the ever evolving ways we heal.

5:42

I've spoken to experts, porn creators

5:45

and even my parents to explore and understand

5:47

the very unique ways that we each approach

5:50

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5:52

Find In Touch on your favourite podcast

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app.

5:59

Hey I'm Mark Thompson, here

6:01

to tell you about my new podcast We

6:03

Were Always Here. 2021 marks 40 years since

6:07

the first case of HIV was identified.

6:10

It would go on to be one of the most stigmatized

6:13

global pandemics in history. I'll

6:15

be speaking to those who've previously been absent

6:17

from the mainstream narrative of the AIDS

6:20

epidemic, as well as sharing my

6:22

own experience of being diagnosed positive

6:24

as a teenager in 1986. These

6:27

are our stories of loss, activism,

6:30

rage, resilience and most

6:32

importantly community.

6:37

On the 5th of February 2020, Sturgeon

6:40

and the SNP were made aware of a story that

6:42

the Scottish son was planning to run. MSP

6:45

and government minister David McKay had

6:48

sent his 16-year-old boy inappropriate

6:50

messages via social media. The next

6:52

day, McKay resigned. Beyond

6:55

being yet another salacious saga

6:57

linked to a sitting member of parliament, there

6:59

was a more pressing concern. McKay

7:01

had been due to present the 2020 Scottish

7:03

budget that very day. With

7:06

hours to spare, his deputy in

7:08

the form of Kate Forbes was left to take up

7:10

the task, becoming the first woman to deliver

7:12

a budget in either the Scottish parliament or

7:14

Westminster. Whether the signal of

7:16

a job well done or due to a lack

7:19

of alternatives, two weeks later,

7:21

Forbes was promoted to become the first woman

7:23

to hold the post of Cabinet Secretary

7:25

for Finance. A majority of over 15,000

7:28

votes in the 2021 Scottish parliament elections

7:30

all but sealed what's

7:34

been described as Kate Forbes' meteoric

7:37

rise through the ranks of government. Historic

7:39

strides from the young MSP have bolstered

7:42

Forbes' positive political reputation,

7:44

looked upon as someone who has smashed through

7:46

gendered glass ceilings in politics. Though

7:49

her socially and economically conservative stance

7:51

may sit at odds with her liberal-leaning party,

7:54

Forbes has kept herself off the radar, it seems,

7:57

until this year.

7:59

leadership contest which propelled the Scottish

8:02

politician into the public eye and

8:04

along with her Forbes' personal beliefs.

8:07

The work that had Forbes' family shuffling back

8:09

and forth from Scotland to India during her

8:11

childhood is often described as

8:13

missionary work, a characterization

8:16

that they disagreed with, the politician

8:18

told Premier Christianity magazine. Growing

8:20

up, reading stories of Hudson Taylor and

8:23

Elizabeth Elliot, my sense of missionaries

8:25

were of brave, courageous souls

8:27

that ended up being martyred for their faith, Forbes

8:30

explains. We were a fairly ordinary

8:32

family that found ourselves in India. My

8:35

dad was involved with Bible teaching and he was also

8:37

an accountant, so he was managing the finances

8:40

of a group of mission hospitals, trying

8:42

to ensure that people were able to access free healthcare.

8:45

Terminology aside, it's clear that

8:47

religious vigour is central to Forbes'

8:49

belief system. To be straight, I

8:51

believe in the person of Jesus Christ,

8:54

she told BBC's Nick Robinson in 2021. I

8:58

believe that he died for me, he saved

9:00

me and that my calling is to serve and to

9:02

love him and to serve and to love my

9:04

neighbour with all my heart and soul and

9:07

mind and strength, so that for me

9:09

is essential to my being. A

9:12

devout Christian, Forbes is a member

9:14

of the Free Church of Scotland, the largest

9:16

Presbyterian denomination in Scotland after

9:18

the National Church. The denomination

9:21

is known for its staunch opposition to same-gender

9:23

marriage and abortion, with a former

9:25

Free Church moderator, Reverend David

9:27

Robertson, having compared abortion

9:30

to slavery. Writing about

9:32

the core beliefs of the Free Church, the

9:34

independence Martha McCarty notes

9:36

the church's website stated the following, this

9:39

revolution has had a very destructive impact

9:42

on society's understanding of morality,

9:44

love, liberty, marriage, the

9:46

family and much more that is critical

9:49

to God-honouring living. God has

9:51

appointed the marriage union between one man

9:53

and one woman and protected it with a seventh

9:56

commandment, thou shalt not commit

9:58

adultery, includes the prohibition

10:01

of sodomy and unnatural lists." However,

10:04

at the time of recording, this statement can't

10:07

be found on the church's core beliefs page or

10:09

through searching terms like sodomy and marriage.

10:12

Forbes has since signaled that some of her beliefs

10:14

depart from the free church's interpretations,

10:16

such as their robust attitudes towards Roman

10:19

Catholics. She stated that, "'I

10:21

make my own decisions on the basis of what

10:23

decision is right and wrong, according to my

10:25

faith, not according to the diktat

10:27

of any church.'" However,

10:30

how much her core values deviate

10:32

from the church remains to be seen. Days

10:35

after Sturgeon announced her intention to resign,

10:37

Forbes officially launched her candidacy for

10:39

SNP leader on the 20th of February, 2023.

10:43

In the flurry of interviews that followed her announcement,

10:46

her position on a host of social issues

10:48

were crystallized. Forbes told

10:50

Sky News that her faith says that, "'Sex

10:54

is for marriage,' and that while she celebrates

10:56

lives brought into the world outside of marriage, it

10:59

would be, quote, "'wrong according

11:01

to her faith.'" End quote. When

11:03

asked about her position on the morality

11:05

of same-gender marriages and how that

11:08

aligns with both her personal beliefs and democratic

11:10

duties, the First Minister Hopeful

11:12

told the Scotsman that, "'Was she

11:14

an MSP at the time of Scotland's equal

11:16

marriage bill in 2014? She

11:19

would have borrowed from the playbook of former Chancellor

11:21

of Germany, Angela Merkel, who voted

11:23

against an equal marriage bill in 2017. "'I

11:26

believe that it should be a conscience vote because

11:29

of its profound significance in all mainstream

11:31

faiths,' Forbes explained. "'I

11:33

would have voted as a matter of conscience along

11:36

the lines of mainstream teaching in most major

11:38

religions that marriage is between a man

11:40

and woman, but I would have respected and defended

11:43

the democratic choice that was made. It

11:45

is illegal right now, and I am a servant

11:47

of democracy. I am not a dictator.'"

11:50

End quote. Hi, I'm

11:53

Laura Dockrell, and I'm the host of Zombie

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platforms.

13:06

Similarly, she would not have supported the Gender

13:08

Recognition Reform Bill in Scotland

13:10

in its current form. One of the 15 SMP

13:13

politicians who publicly called on the party

13:15

to delay proposals to the bill, which

13:17

would make it easier for trans people to self-identify,

13:20

Forbes couldn't partake in the final vote as

13:22

a result of being on maternity leave. Additionally,

13:26

since the UK government blocked the bill from proceeding

13:28

to Royal Assent, Forbes made clear

13:30

that she didn't support challenging the bills blocking

13:32

by the UK government and, rather,

13:34

would have sought negotiation with Westminster. This

13:37

was a striking move in the midst of

13:39

a growing movement that calls for Scottish independence

13:41

from the United Kingdom, from a politician

13:44

who told business leaders in 2021

13:46

that she wanted a second referendum after

13:49

the, quote, immediate impact of

13:51

the pandemic had settled. Forbes' comments,

13:54

particularly around

13:54

equal marriage, generated a slew

13:57

of backlash.

13:59

supported her candidacy like Richard Lockhead

14:02

and Claire Howie withdrew their support.

14:05

Messaging about her campaign was drowned out

14:07

by news cycles and published pieces

14:09

on the devout Christian causing controversy,

14:12

as put by Grazia. Forbes' pro-life

14:15

stance on abortion, having described

14:17

the treatment of fetuses as a quote,

14:19

measure of true progress, end quote,

14:22

back in 2018, has rung

14:24

alarm bells for abortion rights groups like

14:26

Back Off Scotland, who have questioned how

14:28

her faith might interplay in how she legislates.

14:31

Commentators like the Scotsman's Connor Matchett

14:34

opined on the way critics were, quote, trying

14:36

to cancel the politician, suggesting

14:39

that her views on social issues made

14:41

her the latest victim of cancel

14:43

culture. But, as is often

14:46

the case with cries of cancellation, concrete

14:48

evidence of lost social capital is

14:50

lacking. In 2018, Humanist

14:53

Society Scotland commissioned a report that

14:55

found that 59% of Scottish people do

14:58

not hold either religious or spiritual beliefs.

15:01

Yet, even after Forbes' controversy-filled

15:03

candidacy launched on the 12th of March,

15:06

the Daily Record reported that 33% of

15:08

the Scottish public believed Forbes was

15:10

the best candidate for the country's next first

15:12

minister, a 10% increase

15:15

from a previous poll and more than any

15:17

other candidate. Despite

15:20

one senior SNP MSP likening

15:22

Forbes to religious fundamentalists who

15:25

are obsessed with sex, he

15:27

also conceded that he would stay in the SNP

15:29

if she became the leader. The ongoing turmoil

15:32

within the SNP aside, it seemed as

15:34

though Forbes still had the core support of allies,

15:36

but a lack of polls amongst SNP members

15:39

only further clouded the situation. Regardless,

15:42

the metrics falls somewhat short of demonstrating

15:44

Forbes' cancellation. If anything,

15:47

as the leadership contest rumbled on, with

15:49

Forbes as the front-runner, the question of cancel

15:51

culture raised the age-old conundrum

15:54

of church and state. Where does your duty

15:56

lie? With your conscience or your constituents?

16:00

it possible to represent people who look, identify,

16:02

practice, and move through the world in different

16:05

ways to you when your faith deems them wrong?

16:07

In her interviews, Forbes picks her

16:09

words carefully. She ended her comments

16:12

on sex outside of marriage with, quote,

16:14

For me, it would have been wrong according to my

16:17

faith. But for you, I have

16:19

no idea what your faith is. So

16:21

in a free society, you can do what you want,

16:24

end quote. Epithets like,

16:26

I am a servant of democracy, and

16:28

legalese recur frequently in her interview

16:30

responses when she talks of how she would

16:32

defend the rights of people under the

16:35

legal provisions in this country. However,

16:38

maintaining such a balance makes for a precarious

16:40

task, particularly for someone as devoted

16:43

to her religion, which Forbes openly

16:45

admits eclipses her career. Quote, Politics

16:48

will pass. I was a person before I was

16:50

a politician, and that person will continue

16:52

to believe that I am made in the image

16:54

of God, end quote.

16:56

Although she lost out on the SNP

16:59

leadership this time around, it

17:01

certainly looks like Kate Forbes and

17:03

the questions she's ushered in with her potential leadership

17:06

could be here to

17:06

stay.

17:10

This episode was written by Paula Akpan.

17:13

This is a broccoli production.