0:00

You're listening to a

0:02

Mamma Mia podcast. Mamma Mia

0:05

acknowledges the traditional owners of the

0:07

land and waters that this podcast

0:09

is recorded on. Hello

0:13

and welcome to But Are You Happy? The

0:15

podcast that tackles the questions you've always

0:17

wanted to ask the people who appear to have

0:19

it all. I'm your host, Claire

0:21

Stevens. Over the last eight weeks,

0:24

we've spoken to people like Zara

0:26

McDonald, Michelle Andrews,

0:28

Alex Marmi, Tony Lodge, Alex

0:31

Dyson, Georgie Tunny, Steph

0:33

Claire Smith and Aweng Adey Chol. On

0:36

our final episode for season one of

0:39

But Are You Happy? You heard from Luke McGregor.

0:42

I

0:42

have learnt a ridiculous amount over

0:44

the past eight weeks. Having

0:46

conversations with people who

0:49

I admire and often look at

0:51

assuming they have everything figured out

0:53

was a privilege and being able to ask

0:55

them the big questions, the biggest

0:58

questions was something I

1:00

am so grateful for. Each

1:03

guest was exceptionally generous

1:05

in sharing their failures and vulnerabilities

1:08

and heartbreaks and grief and envy

1:10

and the truth about

1:12

their happiness. So today

1:14

to go deeper into what we've learnt and

1:17

digest some of the key themes that have

1:19

come up time and time again throughout season

1:21

one, I am speaking with

1:24

Claire Murphy. Hi, thanks

1:26

for having me back. Hi,

1:28

I'm slightly scared to see your face. Stop

1:31

being scared of me. You're scared the first time I interviewed

1:33

you. I was very, very

1:35

scared. It was amazing and we learnt a

1:37

lot from you too. No,

1:39

it was great. You might remember

1:41

Claire Murphy

1:42

from episode zero. Do

1:45

you think that you're good

1:47

at your job? When you're in the midst of it, do you think

1:49

you're good at it? Which one? I've

1:52

got a few.

1:54

After that episode,

1:56

Claire Stevens, my goodness, the feedback

1:58

I got from people was... insane.

2:01

Especially I've got a couple of mates who are also twins.

2:04

One of whom texted me and said I am crying.

2:07

I relate so hard to

2:10

Claire Stevens feelings of inadequacy when

2:12

she's constantly comparing herself to her sister.

2:15

Like people just resonated with it so hard.

2:17

Not even just twins but also people

2:20

who just have siblings who might be close in age or who they've

2:22

constantly been comparing themselves to. What

2:25

kind of feedback did you get from people after

2:27

you kind of bared your soul to me that

2:29

first time? A lot of people sent

2:32

really detailed messages about

2:34

how it resonated with them.

2:36

So many twins. I love

2:39

the twin trauma that has come out.

2:41

So much twin trauma. All these twins are like we need

2:43

a support group. This is really hard. So

2:46

many people who had parallel

2:48

experiences but also

2:50

friends, sisters, brothers.

2:53

So much comparison that I think

2:55

people felt a lot of shame talking

2:58

about. So I think when you kind of lift

3:00

the lid on that people feel like

3:02

it's okay to share. What

3:05

was interesting was people in my life who listened

3:07

to it and it was a bit awkward because

3:09

I've never spoken about that stuff with

3:11

people in my life. So they

3:14

were incredibly kind. It started

3:16

some good conversations. I'm kind of glad

3:18

that I did it and it probably brought

3:21

me closer to quite a few people.

3:24

If you haven't listened to episode zero, I strongly

3:27

suggest you go back and have a listen. It's incredible.

3:30

Well we do have to ask the one big

3:32

person, feedback, how

3:35

did your twin sister take hearing

3:38

those things that you said about your experience of

3:40

your life alongside her? So

3:42

I had told her she could listen

3:44

to it before it went out in case there was anything

3:47

that she didn't agree with or thought was misleading

3:49

or anything like that. And she said,

3:51

no, no, no, no, it's fine. It's your podcast. I'm

3:53

happy. And then she listened to it. She

3:56

was like, oh, I just hope nobody

3:59

thinks. that I'm this

4:01

bossy, dominant, loud person

4:04

who's always taking up the attention and that sort of thing. We

4:07

had a really big chat about it because

4:09

I said, of all the feedback

4:11

I've got, no one said anything

4:13

negative about you. It was never

4:16

like, oh, I hate having people like that in my

4:18

life. The idea was I'm

4:20

in awe of those people

4:23

in my life and sometimes it makes

4:25

me feel inadequate. I think

4:27

she'd like a right of reply. So

4:29

it's funny that you say that Jessie would

4:32

like a rebuttal and I will say just personally,

4:34

not surprised, but we have actually

4:37

managed to get a response from

4:40

Jessie on how she felt about episode

4:42

zero. Are you prepared to do this? Oh no. Sure,

4:44

sure. All right, here we go. Jessie

4:47

Stevens response to episode zero. I

4:50

wanted to

4:50

shout all the

4:53

things that have happened in our lives that contradict the narrative

4:55

that she's told herself. I know that sometimes when

4:57

you do have a narrative, you fit

5:00

all these events in your life in to

5:02

make it make sense and you omit

5:05

anything that doesn't.

5:06

I wanted to challenge her on that. I

5:08

wanted to explicitly challenge her on

5:10

so much of that. Although that was Claire's version

5:13

of events, I had some conversations afterwards

5:15

with people where I was like,

5:17

that's not been

5:19

the narrative for our whole lives. I can

5:21

think of so many times when we

5:23

went to university and Claire just

5:26

was winning these awards and she was going so well

5:28

and I felt like I was failing and where she's

5:30

had particular promotions that I haven't had. There

5:33

is also this bittersweet

5:36

reality to being a twin, which is

5:38

that every success

5:41

you have is also a failure,

5:44

often felt by the

5:46

other person. You can have these experiences

5:48

that are so exciting, but

5:50

at once you can feel that the other

5:53

person is feeling

5:56

let down or maybe

5:58

they wish it was them.

5:59

or you get an award and you know that your win

6:02

is their loss. And I also

6:04

worried listening to that episode that I came

6:06

across as a dick, that I came

6:08

across as someone who talked about themselves

6:10

a lot, who was having all this

6:13

success and everything came really easily. And

6:15

I'm just like,

6:17

a nightmare. I just went, oh,

6:19

I sound awful. Is that really how I am?

6:22

Because I suppose in some ways, Claire can be a little

6:24

bit quieter. I don't think she's less confident.

6:27

I think that she's just maybe a little bit

6:29

more introverted. I

6:31

don't know. It was very interesting

6:33

to hear that side

6:35

of it, but I desperately wanted a rebuttal.

6:38

The episode also came out at a really

6:40

interesting time. It was the week of

6:43

my

6:44

wedding,

6:45

six months pregnant, uncomfortable. I

6:47

wasn't very well. I was struggling

6:50

mentally with a number of things. I

6:53

wrote this letter to Claire the night before and

6:55

just said, all I want is to be surrounded

6:58

by people I love and to

6:59

have you there. And it means so much. And

7:02

when I woke up on the morning of my wedding, Claire

7:05

had gastro and she couldn't move.

7:07

And she never walked

7:10

into the reception. She couldn't, she was too

7:12

sick.

7:13

And it was another

7:14

moment, and

7:17

this sounds really selfish, but

7:20

where I went, it's happy and it's painful

7:23

because every moment that she wasn't in that room, I

7:26

was very aware of it. And all

7:28

I wanted was her there. No moment in my life

7:30

is ever complete. It's

7:32

never full without

7:33

Claire there right by my side.

7:35

And it was one of those moments that life

7:37

expects you to be your absolute happiest

7:40

for there to be bliss. It's like you've

7:42

invested so much into it. And I

7:44

didn't care about all the details. All I cared about

7:46

was having the people I love in the room and Claire

7:49

couldn't be there. I guess that's the whole point of

7:51

the podcast is that you look at photos and everything looks

7:54

perfect and you get big smiles,

7:56

but there was also pain because

7:58

I think when you're a twin, you. You live

8:01

two lives. Every day you're living two lives. So

8:04

that's a lot. And

8:06

it really, when I first heard this, Claire, I

8:08

heard that moment where she said a lot

8:11

of times in your lives,

8:13

you can never fully appreciate your own success

8:16

because it's always tied in with failure, which

8:18

is exactly what you said in episode zero

8:20

and how you felt about that. There's

8:22

something very beautiful in that story about her wedding

8:24

day, but also quite awful. I

8:28

mean, other than the fact that you were very sick and

8:31

that's obviously not what you wanted for that day. But

8:34

to know that

8:35

on your closest person's most

8:37

memorable day is always

8:39

now going to be intertwined with the fact that you weren't able to

8:41

be there, that must be really hard to hear that. Yeah.

8:45

Yeah.

8:46

And it was actually Jesse on

8:48

the day I woke up and was

8:50

like, no, no, no, no, no. And I'm vomiting

8:53

and just thinking I was in denial

8:55

the whole day that this is what was happening.

8:57

I was like, just and I kept coming into the room where everyone

9:00

was getting the hair and makeup done. I was like, guys,

9:02

I'm actually fine. And they're like, no, please just

9:04

go lay down. And I went

9:06

to Jesse just before the reception

9:09

and just started sobbing and said,

9:11

Jess, I don't think I can do this. She

9:14

was the one who looked at me and said,

9:17

stop yelling at yourself. Stop

9:19

beating yourself up. Life isn't about

9:22

this moment. Life is about all the

9:24

other stuff. And you are there for me

9:27

every single day of my life. You're going to be there for

9:30

my baby when my baby's born. You

9:32

have been there for my whole relationship with Luca. If

9:35

you cannot be there at my wedding reception, that's

9:37

okay. And it's out of your control. And

9:40

interestingly, she was the only person who told me

9:42

that even my partner, when I said to

9:44

my partner, I can't stand up. I don't know what

9:47

to do. He said,

9:49

no, no, no, no, no, no. Like I'll pick you

9:51

up and you'll go to the reception. And I was so

9:53

broken because I was, I couldn't communicate

9:55

how sick I was

9:58

and how bad it was going to be. I had

10:00

to be in a wedding reception with the

10:02

things that were happening to my body. It's

10:04

just interesting that it was Jesse who sort of

10:07

was able to give me permission

10:09

that

10:10

it's okay. This isn't what life's about.

10:12

And she's always been very, very good at that. And

10:14

even with her wedding day,

10:16

being very aware that no day

10:18

is perfect and it's not a

10:20

fairy tale. And

10:22

if you're pregnant on your wedding day, like it's

10:25

great because having a baby is going to be

10:27

for her one of the things that brings the most

10:30

meaning to her life. So what a gift.

10:32

But yeah, it was horrible at the time to

10:35

be so unwell and miss that. We

10:37

are all desperate to be flies on the wall after you have a conversation

10:40

with her after listening to that for a battle

10:42

now. I'm not sure there'll be a conversation. I think there'll

10:44

be a big cuddle. And then at

10:46

the moment, every time I say all I can do

10:49

is put my hands on her belly

10:51

and speak to her unborn child. So that'll

10:53

be the conversation.

11:06

Something that really stood out to

11:08

me with But Are You Happy was the

11:11

episode with Tony Lodge. I've been following

11:13

Tony Lodge for such a long

11:15

time and she's such a bubbly, enthusiastic

11:18

character and someone who

11:20

I kind of resonate with a lot because she's like,

11:23

I don't know, just always switched on to happy mode.

11:25

So it's so fascinating to hear what's

11:28

actually going on behind the scenes. I found it really,

11:31

really candid and the vulnerability

11:33

of it was beautiful and made

11:35

me feel a little bit braver and

11:37

that it's okay if I'm not happy all the time.

11:39

Like, you're allowed to have other feelings, even

11:42

if you're the class clown. It was really powerful.

11:45

I bloody love this podcast.

11:46

But Are You Happy

11:48

has been an amazing reminder that

11:50

we are all the same. The people that have been

11:52

on the podcast have obviously come from so

11:54

many walks of life and they've experienced

11:57

so many amazing things and have been

11:59

at the top of this.

11:59

success, but they ultimately

12:02

feel what we all feel on a daily

12:04

basis. And, you know,

12:06

I'm a little bit nosy. I love listening to how

12:08

people have been so successful, but their

12:11

human experience is just as similar

12:13

as it is to yours or mine. And

12:15

it's quite inspiring to see that. It's just

12:17

nice to know that you can

12:20

make big things out

12:22

of hard, small, mundane

12:24

moments.

12:27

Something that really stuck with

12:29

me was probably the Flex

12:31

Mommy episode, especially the part

12:34

where she was talking about looking

12:36

after her mental and physical

12:38

wellbeing. And she gave

12:40

the example of exercising

12:43

and she said that exercising

12:45

in the moment could make her unhappy,

12:48

but she knows that exercising right

12:50

now would make her happy in the future

12:52

and vice versa. And I

12:54

think it really helped me put my own

12:56

physical

12:57

wellbeing into perspective.

13:00

What I like about But Are You Happy? is you

13:03

never knew that Zara felt a bit

13:05

inferior to Michelle in the early days of Shameless

13:07

and you never knew that Alex

13:10

Dyson was going through this

13:12

really devastating breakup while

13:14

he's still jumping on the radio or jumping

13:17

on his podcast more recently and

13:19

going through a breakup and still being this,

13:22

you know, happy-go-lucky person that helps people

13:24

get through their days with a bit of humour and

13:27

lightheartedness. So it's a little bit

13:29

of the

13:30

peak behind the curtain, but just the vulnerability

13:33

and candidness that the guests bring to the table. I'm

13:37

really interested to find out actually after having spoken

13:39

to these eight very high profile

13:41

Aussies about what

13:43

makes them happy is

13:45

what key themes stand out for you because

13:47

some stood out really quite starkly for

13:49

me. I'm interested to see if you had the same

13:51

thoughts. What stood out the most for you as sort of the key

13:53

themes that these people gave you as to the secrets

13:56

to their happiness success?

13:58

A lot of people.

14:00

talked about the relationships,

14:03

the interpersonal connections

14:06

in their lives. And I've been looking

14:08

at some research recently about happiness.

14:11

And apparently, Millennials and Gen

14:13

Z expect that money and

14:15

fame will bring them happiness. And

14:18

in reality, the one big predictor is

14:20

the strength of your interpersonal relationships.

14:23

And I think, you know, Luke McGregor

14:25

talking about his relationship with

14:27

Amy, Alex Dyson talking about heartbreak

14:30

and the impact that can have on mental health. People

14:33

like Steph Claire Smith

14:36

and Tony Lodge talking about their

14:38

partners and the

14:40

meaning that brings to their lives.

14:43

What's interesting is that a lot of the things you would

14:45

think make these people happy are not

14:47

the things that actually

14:50

bring them happiness. And the

14:52

other thing is that the big moments

14:55

you look at from the outside and you are

14:57

certain that somebody would just

14:59

feel over the moon. I think in the shameless

15:01

episode with Michelle Andrews and Zara

15:03

McDonald when they were talking about having a profile

15:06

written about them and not

15:08

liking what was in the profile. And

15:10

I thought, if anyone ever wrote a profile

15:12

about me, I'd be stoked because

15:16

I just had enough. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it's

15:18

just how exciting to be in the paper. You've

15:20

got photos of you in the paper and talking about,

15:22

you know, this amazing business you've built. But as soon as

15:25

I said it, I thought, actually, yeah,

15:27

that would be really hard to feel like you've been

15:29

misunderstood and that that's been

15:31

put on quite a public stage.

15:34

You're not sure if you can even interrogate

15:36

it. I guess a lot of things I have

15:39

assumed

15:40

my whole life

15:42

would bring me happiness. Turns out for

15:44

these people, it doesn't necessarily.

15:47

And yeah, it's kind of the quiet moments

15:50

and the things that most of

15:52

us have access to that are really

15:54

the things that make us happy.

15:56

One thing that stood out for me, and I think I texted this to you

15:58

sort of like late one night.

15:59

after I'd listened to one of the episodes because

16:02

I just couldn't hold it in any longer was

16:04

because after listening to Tony and Flex

16:06

and then awaying and realizing that,

16:09

and even the shameless girls at the start was like,

16:11

all of them have talked about their relationship

16:14

with their moms.

16:15

Not all of them talk about the relationship with their

16:17

dads, but every single one of them spoke about the relationship

16:19

with their mom. And that includes you too,

16:22

Claire Stevens, when we got your wonderful

16:24

mom and Stevens on for a little chat.

16:27

And it seems that that relationship

16:30

really does set the standard for

16:33

how you seek your happiness down the

16:35

track. Did you get that too?

16:36

Yeah. And for maybe

16:39

how safe you feel in the world as well.

16:42

I think these people who have moms who

16:44

really, really build them up and make them

16:46

feel safe, Flex was fascinating

16:49

her relationship with her mom, that I feel

16:51

like anything goes wrong for Flex. And her mom

16:53

is like, let me hold you, sweet child. It's

16:56

gonna be okay. It's just indispensable,

16:59

the relationship. And that's again, like interpersonal

17:02

relationships, that they are the things that

17:04

matter the most and bring

17:07

meaning. And ultimately

17:09

it's probably a bit of an attachment

17:12

thing as well that you feel secure

17:14

and safe enough that you are loved unconditionally

17:17

by somebody to then take these big

17:19

risks and not necessarily be scared

17:21

of failing, not be scared of people not

17:23

liking you, because you

17:26

have this knowledge that you are inherently

17:28

lovable. What Tony

17:31

said about having lost her mom, but

17:34

still feeling her mom, she said

17:36

when she moved to Melbourne, she

17:39

felt that her mom would have thought it was the

17:41

right decision and she was in the right place. And

17:43

so it's really telling that that

17:46

strength of someone's bond with their mother

17:49

outlives our parents, like outlives

17:52

our mothers. I completely

17:55

find that, that my relationship with my

17:57

mom is one of my primary

17:59

relationships.

17:59

top like two. It is

18:02

that security and

18:05

having somebody that you can be completely

18:07

vulnerable with and they are never ever

18:09

going to judge you. They're just going to see you for

18:12

the best version of yourself.

18:13

I love that you brought up Flex in that way then because

18:16

after listening to that, I was like,

18:18

dear Lord, give me the strength to be as confident

18:20

in myself as Flex is in herself.

18:22

Like that is an achievement that I would

18:24

hope to have in my lifetime. That woman loves

18:27

herself, is confident in herself,

18:29

is just

18:30

brilliant. But I know you mentioned before how

18:32

a lot of the things you presume will

18:34

bring us happiness didn't like being

18:37

successful and having money, but Flex made it quite clear.

18:39

And I think a wing also kind of touched on this as well

18:41

that money can to

18:43

an extent buy you happiness

18:46

if for no other reason that it just makes your life easier,

18:48

right?

18:49

The money theme I

18:52

think came up a lot because

18:54

it was those two, but it was

18:56

also Steph Claire Smith talking

18:58

about early retirement and that being

19:00

a massive goal. And they were kind

19:02

of just little seeds throughout that you could

19:04

see that the people we

19:07

spoke to on this show had certain opportunities

19:09

and could take certain risks because of

19:12

their financial position. But listening to a wing

19:14

and Flex in particular

19:17

and their view on money, I realized

19:20

a lot of the people you hear saying

19:24

money's not important, money's not

19:26

everything, are perhaps the ones who are quite

19:29

complacent with money, have never kind of had to

19:31

worry about it. Whereas I think if you've grown up

19:33

and money has been this really, really

19:35

finite resource and you've seen what life

19:38

looks like without it, when

19:40

you start earning it,

19:42

you realize

19:43

what it can do. So someone like Flex

19:46

who grew up with a single mum and did

19:48

not have the luxury of being able to afford

19:51

everything, when she is finally

19:53

able to make money, she can take all her friends on

19:55

a holiday. She can take

19:57

her mum wherever she wants to go. And same with the other side, but it's not really a big deal.

20:00

the wang, being able to help all her siblings,

20:02

help her mum who have never had money

20:04

before. I'm not sure how I feel

20:07

about the money thing because I've

20:10

always been of the view and there is research

20:12

that shows there's kind of an ideal salary

20:14

for happiness and it's a salary that basically

20:17

covers all the basics but doesn't go much

20:20

higher than that. And interestingly, that used to

20:22

be like $70,000 a year and you

20:24

can imagine how much higher it would be now. Yeah,

20:27

no, we need like double that business. Exactly.

20:31

Fleck saying, I find it easy to make money.

20:33

I'm like, how? Tell

20:36

me, give me like five tips because I got no

20:38

money. But you can see

20:41

that being able to have that stability

20:43

and ease, I think a wang even

20:46

is the example of you're at the airport, you've missed a flight.

20:49

If you've got no money, you're screwed.

20:51

If you have money, you're fine. Yeah,

20:54

it does make you realise that that stability has

20:56

a big role in people's sense of wellbeing.

20:59

Tore also found in both Fleck and a

21:01

wang in their level of confidence in themselves

21:04

is that

21:06

while Fleck is like completely unapologetic

21:09

about her level of confidence, which was just

21:11

glorious to watch, a wang

21:13

kept referring to hers as a God complex.

21:16

Like she felt she had to apologise for being

21:19

extremely confident. And that really

21:21

struck a chord with me because I feel like there's

21:24

a lot of times where I do this and I don't know if you do this too,

21:26

but like if you are successful at something

21:28

or if you considered to be

21:30

very good at what you do, it's almost

21:32

like you have to go, oh, well, you know, really,

21:35

it's just I got a good education or like

21:37

you try and explain it away like a God

21:39

complex. When realistically, when you listen to

21:41

Fleck's and you just realise sometimes you can

21:43

just embrace it, you're bloody good at something

21:46

and

21:46

not back down from that, right?

21:48

And I think we heard that in a few of the interviews,

21:51

even Georgie Tunney quite confidently saying,

21:54

I'm very good at my job. And when there

21:56

was a crap situation at the ABC where she didn't get

21:58

her dream job, she's like, still very good

22:00

at my job. And that confidence

22:03

is incredible. And for both of them, I found the

22:06

God complex thing

22:08

fascinating because I think the first time Owing said

22:10

it, I wasn't quite sure what she meant.

22:12

And then she referenced it a few times. I

22:15

realized it was almost like a self-deprecating

22:17

way of saying, I have this

22:20

same sense that Flex has, which is that

22:23

I deserve big things and I deserve

22:25

good things and I can

22:27

make things happen. And

22:29

I love women being able to own

22:31

that.

22:32

The one person who I felt was the least confident

22:35

of all the people that you spoke to was Alex Dyson,

22:37

which surprised me. But then I realized

22:41

that men just don't talk about their

22:43

feelings and emotions in the same way that women

22:45

do. Whereas women are very confident in delivering how

22:47

they felt in any particular situation. He

22:50

nervous laughed his way through a lot

22:53

of that interview. Did you pick up on that that

22:55

you felt like he was probably the least comfortable

22:58

talking about his feelings in this setting?

23:01

I loved it. There was something about

23:03

his vulnerability straight off the bat

23:06

that I kind of said, are

23:08

you happy at the beginning? And he essentially

23:10

said, not really. And

23:12

I really lent into that, to

23:15

the fact that he was clearly

23:17

uncomfortable. Our producer said afterwards,

23:20

like, oh, you really, you kept going there. And

23:22

I was like, I know there's something about it. I

23:25

think he just has that sort of energy where you feel really

23:27

safe that he wants to talk about this

23:29

stuff and he knows it's important.

23:32

And I think maybe I'm used to it because with

23:34

my partner and my brothers, they're incredibly

23:37

similar. And I know they have

23:39

really important insights to

23:41

give and you sort of just

23:44

have to keep pushing. So even

23:46

when he was talking about heartbreak, I was very unsure

23:49

about how much to press it because

23:51

you obviously do not want someone

23:53

to say something about

23:56

the ex partner that they didn't want to say.

23:59

But I really think thought there was something

24:01

universal in what he was talking

24:03

about. But I really

24:05

enjoyed the fact that

24:07

he didn't hide how hard

24:11

or uncomfortable it was to talk about

24:13

those things.

24:14

We had lots of uncomfortable

24:16

conversations with all of these people who

24:18

were incredibly open and wonderfully

24:21

giving in

24:22

sharing their experiences, which I think

24:24

has left us all slightly better humans

24:27

after all of that. But the first time

24:29

around I asked you, like after all of the

24:31

discussion we had between the two of us about

24:33

how you felt about your life and your relationships,

24:36

whether you were happy. But now that you've

24:38

spoken to all of these different people and taken

24:40

in all their different experiences, what

24:43

have you learned about being happy?

24:46

I think I feel a bit less

24:48

alone in the

24:51

experiences I have and I'm quite

24:53

aware that

24:56

I might almost pathologise my

24:58

own thoughts about something and think that there's something

25:00

wrong with me. Even we talked

25:02

in that first episode about I'm

25:05

trying to write a book at the moment and it is really

25:08

hard and you go crazy and

25:10

you think, why on earth would I think

25:12

I can do this? The arrogance for me

25:14

to think I can do this and you hate every word. And

25:18

everyone I spoke to

25:20

who had written a book,

25:21

you know, even if it was off mic, like Flex

25:24

after the interview, we were outside the podcast

25:26

studio for about half an hour talking about her book

25:28

and she was like, oh no, no, no,

25:31

no, you go crazy. Everyone

25:33

needs to go crazy. And that's how the book happens.

25:36

So it really made me think,

25:38

oh, that's allowed. That's okay.

25:41

That's meant to be really, really difficult. And

25:43

that's what makes it worthwhile. I also

25:47

found talking to somebody like Georgie

25:49

Tunney, who really identified

25:51

with the idea of not being sure what

25:53

she should be doing at any given time,

25:56

because I can feel really pulled. I

25:59

see what somebody else is doing. doing, and that looks exciting.

26:01

And then I'm thinking, oh, I could

26:03

be doing this and this, and I'm not doing any of it. And

26:05

I'm just so tired now or just lay in bed. She

26:08

has that same thing. And from the outside,

26:10

she's doing one of the most exciting

26:12

jobs in media, but everyone

26:15

feels that. So it's okay.

26:18

And then what Alex Dyson said about really

26:21

trying not to look around, just thinking,

26:23

what do I actually want to be doing and

26:26

being confident in those decisions?

26:29

I found it really inspiring that he

26:32

has taken quite an unconventional

26:34

route and he's really quite confident

26:37

about what he does and doesn't want to do. That he doesn't

26:39

want to do the same thing over and over again. That

26:42

he doesn't want to copy what his

26:44

colleagues are doing, just so he's got the

26:46

same kind of achievements

26:49

and trophies on his cabinet.

26:51

He wants to do things that actually make a difference. I

26:54

think that's really helped with this sense of anxiety

26:57

or uncertainty that even these

26:59

people I really admire have that.

27:02

And you've really got to just

27:04

trust your gut. Thanks for taking us on the ride

27:06

with you Claire Stevens.

27:08

Really enjoyed it. Thank you. Thank

27:10

you for listening. When I got a couple

27:12

of messages from you about the show, I was like, oh my

27:14

gosh, Claire Murphy's listening.

27:17

Why wouldn't you? It was so compelling. I

27:19

definitely want to be flexed when I grow up. Oh,

27:22

me too. Me too. Okay,

27:24

we can only hope. That's

27:28

the inimitable Claire Murphy

27:30

getting me every bloody time.

27:34

She is an excellent interviewer. If

27:37

there's one thing

27:38

I've learnt from this show

27:40

and I touched on it a little bit, chatting

27:42

to Claire, it's that I think

27:44

we actually all have access

27:47

to what makes people

27:48

truly happy. A lot of us

27:50

think it's fame and

27:53

money and achievement and notoriety.

27:56

But through these conversations, I just don't think

27:58

that it is.

27:59

We all have the tools. So I

28:02

mean the big thing is interpersonal

28:05

relationships that the

28:07

better the quality of your relationships, the happier

28:09

you are going to be. And even the people who

28:12

have all the external markers

28:14

that we think make people happy. Ultimately

28:18

the thing that matters to them are the people

28:20

around them. And I don't think any of the external

28:23

staff, the how many followers you have on social

28:25

media, whether you have your

28:27

own TV show or your own business or how

28:29

many people watch your comedy special, I don't

28:31

think any of that matters if

28:34

you don't have strong relationships

28:36

around you.

28:38

I think the other thing is that

28:40

happiness depends on living

28:42

a life that feels true to who you are,

28:45

where you're not looking around at what's

28:47

happening in other people's lives.

28:51

There's the saying that comparison is the thief of joy.

28:53

That's kind of how we started this podcast and I

28:55

just believe it's absolutely true.

28:58

Alex Dyson really spoke to this,

29:01

that if you are living

29:03

your life with your own compass

29:06

about what it is that you want to do

29:08

and focus your energy on, maybe

29:11

you're going to feel something more than happy, more profound

29:13

than happy. And that's that your

29:15

life truly has

29:16

meaning.

29:18

I don't think happiness is actually

29:20

about achievement. And

29:23

I have probably told myself that my entire life,

29:26

that by doing something, whether

29:29

that's winning a prize or

29:33

doing a big project that I've always wanted

29:35

to do, that that is going

29:38

to bring me happiness. But ultimately,

29:40

I think it comes from the inside

29:43

and it comes from feeling

29:45

like you're a good human and

29:48

you're living a good life and

29:50

you're living a life that's true to who

29:53

you are. And it doesn't matter how

29:55

you're doing it or what it looks

29:57

like, because we are all

29:59

doing our best. If

30:02

you enjoyed this show, please review

30:04

and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

30:07

It helps others to find the show

30:09

and I think everyone who listens take

30:11

something away from these episodes. If

30:14

you'd like to suggest someone for season 2,

30:17

you can get in touch with me directly. My Instagram

30:20

handle is claire.stevens

30:22

with two S's at the end or you

30:24

can email us here at podcast at

30:26

mamma mia dot com dot au.

30:29

We've already had some incredible

30:31

suggestions so please keep them coming.

30:33

This episode was produced

30:36

by Claire O'Halloran. Our executive

30:38

producer is Tia Jusic with audio

30:40

production by Leah Porges and

30:43

we'll see you next time!