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data. To learn more about

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continuous compliance, visit vertexinc.com. Hello

1:22

and welcome to Business Matters. I'm Roger

1:24

Haring, coming up on the programme today,

1:26

an attempted coup in Bolivia after

1:28

months of protest over the declining

1:31

economy. Kenya's President U-turns

1:33

on his tax bill after bloody

1:35

protests will look at the pressure

1:37

on many developing countries with IMF

1:40

agreements. Also the incredible

1:42

sinking yen and how

1:44

Spanish farmers are building cooperatives

1:46

to rival supermarkets. I also

1:48

used to come here to buy

1:51

fruits and fish and

1:53

like food. And

1:55

now this market has

1:57

become mostly like a

2:00

place for drinking.

2:04

And I'll be joined throughout the program

2:06

by two guests on opposite sides of

2:08

the world, Sejiro Takeshita, who's professor at

2:10

the Graduate School of Management, Informatics and

2:12

Innovation at the University of Shizuoka. And

2:15

joins us from Shizuoka. Sejiro, a very

2:17

good morning to you. Thank

2:19

you very much, good morning. Good to have

2:21

you there. And across the other side of

2:23

the world, Tony Nash, CEO and founder of

2:26

Complete Intelligence, an AI-based financial forecasting firm, who

2:28

joins us on the line from Houston, Texas.

2:30

Tony, very good evening to you. Good

2:33

evening, Roger. Good to have you both with us.

2:35

Let's start, as we always do, with a sense

2:37

of what's going on where you are. So Sejiro,

2:39

what's caught your eye news-wise this morning? Well,

2:42

weekend, weekend, weekend is definitely something that people

2:44

are talking about, the consequences of that and

2:46

how our living standards will be affected. This

2:48

is something that is catching and in minds

2:51

of every Japanese that's walking on the street.

2:53

Yeah, I can imagine. And something that we're

2:55

definitely going to be coming on to later

2:57

in the program, digging in, no doubt with

2:59

your help as to what's going on in

3:01

there. And Tony, let me ask you, what

3:03

are you looking at at the moment? What's

3:05

interesting you? We've

3:08

got our first presidential debate tomorrow, which

3:11

is kind of interesting here

3:13

in the US. It's summertime. I'm in

3:15

Texas. It's hot. And

3:17

we're watching tech markets and Nvidia

3:19

and what's happening there, as well

3:21

as gold. Yeah, indeed. I mean,

3:23

Nvidia, very interesting, of course, having

3:25

been the most valuable country, or

3:28

country, or is it valuable company

3:30

in the world now

3:32

isn't anymore, but it's still obviously doing a lot

3:34

of business. Anyway, we will also be talking about

3:36

that perhaps later in the program. But let's start

3:38

with what's been going on in Bolivia because it's

3:40

been a strange few hours. Earlier

3:43

in the day, troops moved into

3:45

the square outside the presidential palace

3:47

and the administrative capital, La Paz.

3:56

As you can hear a lot of confusion as

3:58

a tank knocked down the main gate of the

4:00

presidential palace and the troops attempted

4:02

to enter and the man leading

4:04

them, the army commander General Juan

4:06

Jose Zuniga, declared he was trying

4:08

to restructure democracy. The

4:10

president of Bolivia, Luis Arce, went on

4:13

TV and social media condemning what he

4:15

said was a coup and he

4:17

swore in new commanders for the military. Shortly

4:19

after, the soldiers withdrew and now it's

4:22

reported that General Zuniga has been arrested.

4:24

Let's get the latest from La Paz.

4:26

We're joined by Madeline Aguirre, who is

4:28

the journalist at the local Bolivian newspaper,

4:31

La Nube. Madeline, thank you so much for being

4:33

with us. Can you just bring us

4:36

up to speed? What's been happening in

4:38

the last couple of hours? Yes,

4:41

sure. Yes, as you

4:44

said, there have been like

4:46

really strange hours for Bolivian,

4:48

but the latest news would

4:50

be that the Zuniga, the

4:53

military who lead this attempt

4:55

of a coup was arrested, but

4:58

when he was moving through

5:00

the police offices,

5:03

he informed

5:06

that the president, Luis Arce,

5:09

himself told him to

5:11

move the military vehicles

5:14

because this week will be critical for

5:16

the country. So people

5:18

are talking about a self-coup,

5:21

like this was organized by

5:23

the same government. That's what

5:26

people and even political analysts

5:28

are saying. That's extraordinary,

5:30

isn't it? A suggestion that this was actually

5:32

staged by the president himself. Yes,

5:35

it seems like it's a

5:38

strategy to bring

5:40

up the popularity because, as you said,

5:42

there has been a crisis

5:44

here in Bolivia and the president

5:46

image was not good. So this

5:48

set him as a good president,

5:50

someone who can reestablish the democracy,

5:53

who can face someone that is

5:55

against it. So it can

5:57

be a strategy and that's what people are thinking.

5:59

I was going to say, I mean, we obviously

6:01

haven't heard from the president himself on that, but

6:03

there's no evidence, I guess, beyond

6:05

what General Zenyiga has said, but it is

6:08

interesting that people are talking that way. I

6:10

mean, just give us a sense of how

6:12

do people in La Paz feel about what's

6:14

happened? Were they surprised? Yes,

6:17

it was really a surprise for

6:19

us because even though we had problems,

6:22

economic problems like prices going up, also

6:27

there's not gasoline and there are not

6:29

dollars here. And

6:33

also the principal roots of

6:36

the country were blocked until

6:39

yesterday. So we were in a

6:42

crisis mode, but we were inspecting

6:44

a military movement. So when we

6:47

saw that, everybody got scared. The

6:50

people start buying things and

6:52

the classes were suspended. People

6:54

were trying to buy gasoline. There

6:57

are long lines even until now. So

7:00

we were really surprised. Yeah. And

7:02

many people, I guess, relieved that this isn't a

7:05

coup. I mean, that the democracy, at least

7:07

as it seems, is safe.

7:11

Yes, it seems like everything is

7:13

going back to normal. However, it's

7:15

obvious that it's pretty strange how

7:18

things happened. How things changed because

7:21

this Sunyuga military was

7:24

moved out of his position

7:26

after declaration against Evo Morales,

7:29

the former president. But

7:31

he still was working normally,

7:33

even gave a speech today

7:36

in the army saying that today will be a

7:38

memorable day. And that was strange.

7:41

I was going to say, but it certainly

7:43

has been a memorable day. Very clearly,

7:45

perhaps not for the right reasons. Madeline,

7:47

we'll have to leave it there. But thank

7:49

you so much for being with us, Madeline.

7:52

Aguiar, there, live on the line from La

7:54

Paz after a very strange few hours. But

7:56

why did this happen? How far were, as

7:58

Madeline suggested, Bolivia's economic? problems, perhaps

8:01

underlying some of it. Joining me now

8:03

is Diego Von Varkano, who's Professor of

8:05

Political Science at Texas A&M University, also

8:07

a former advisor to President Arce. Joins

8:10

me now from College Station in Texas.

8:12

Diego, thanks for being with us. I

8:14

mean, what are your thoughts about

8:16

this? You were a former advisor to President

8:18

Arce. What do you think happened? Thank

8:21

you very much for the invitation. Yes, over

8:24

the last three years, the economy and generally

8:27

believe it has not been managed well by Luis

8:29

Arce and Lucho, as they call him. And

8:32

to some extent, it's not really that surprising

8:34

because he did not follow through his

8:37

strategy that he developed in the first six months

8:40

when I was advising him and other people advising him

8:42

to focus on lithium. And

8:44

over the last three years, basically,

8:46

his focus has been to maintain

8:48

self-empower sometimes

8:51

through illegitimate and even corrupt methods.

8:53

So unfortunately, it's not a big

8:55

surprise when this happened today. I

8:58

thought it was a autogol pia self

9:00

coup, a coup d'etat, mainly because the

9:02

media in the way that was covering

9:04

in Bolivia, there's a couple of

9:06

media outlets are recovering very closely. And those

9:09

media outlets are very closely aligned with the government,

9:11

with the Luis Arce government. So

9:13

it almost looked like the TV was almost

9:15

there, you know, exactly at the right moment.

9:18

The Minister of Government del Castillo was also

9:20

there sort of. So it

9:22

seemed to me an artificial crisis in a

9:24

sense, to prop up the

9:27

popularity of Luis Arce and to say that

9:29

we believe in democracies in crisis. So to

9:31

be honest, I was not surprised. Well, obviously,

9:33

I guess get more details about what happened

9:35

in the days ahead when the smoke clears.

9:38

But Diego, just just take us through why

9:40

Bolivia is in this dire economic situation with

9:42

Matt, which Madeleine was talking about. I mean,

9:44

it's a country that has a lot of

9:46

resources. Why are things so bad? I would

9:50

say that the Bonanza years of the Evo Moros,

9:52

because the first 10 years are very good. But

9:55

he did stay in power too

9:57

long. This created a political crisis.

10:00

He chose his former economics minister to be

10:02

the candidate. That's when I was advising him

10:04

through the campaign and he was successful to

10:06

get over 55% of the vote. But

10:10

Luis did not really use that

10:12

political capital to benefit and sort of

10:14

have an economic strategy. So

10:17

I think the lack of economic planning for

10:19

Bolivia to realize that the gas reserves were

10:21

dwindling, the lithium should be the main backbone,

10:23

that really fell to the to the wayside

10:25

and to the side and that really became

10:28

a minor issue when in fact

10:30

that should have been the main focus of the

10:32

government. And again, I think the

10:34

main objective of his party and his group

10:36

was to maintain power that to push aside

10:38

the Evo Morales camp instead of working

10:41

with Evo Morales and others. So I

10:44

think this is a completely unnecessary crisis that

10:46

was created by Luis Arce and his people.

10:49

Again, some of the ministers like the Castillo, also

10:52

the corruption by his son Marcelo Arce in

10:54

the lithium sector. So these

10:56

things are not necessary. Okay,

10:59

Diego, thank you so much for being

11:01

with us. Diego Von Varkano there, professor

11:03

of political science at Texas A&M and

11:05

as we said, a former adviser to

11:07

President Arce. Tony, let me bring you in

11:09

on this because I mean, speaking

11:11

of just up the road from where you are, I guess. And

11:14

obviously it's hard to see from this sort of distance quite

11:16

what was going on. But this used to be US backyard

11:19

and the US would be perhaps even pointed

11:21

a finger at when a coup or attempted

11:23

coup happened. Not really like that anymore, is

11:26

it? No,

11:28

the US is really not

11:31

done well in Latin America for

11:34

the last probably 20 years. So

11:36

first of all, Diego, great

11:38

choice there. He teaches at the absolute

11:41

best university in America. So thank you

11:43

for having him on. Right. But

11:46

yeah, influence in Latin America. Yeah,

11:50

it's really withered away and we've really

11:53

kind of let a lot of opportunities go

11:55

over the last couple of decades. Yeah. So,

11:58

Jira, let me bring you in on this too. Obviously, it's

12:00

not, I guess, a country that you know,

12:02

but this problem of a country with a

12:05

lot of resources, but they're just not well

12:07

managed, and an economic problem then brings political

12:09

instability. It's quite a familiar story, isn't it?

12:12

Oh, absolutely. I mean, especially if

12:14

you do have these resources, then

12:16

you have various interests, particularly through

12:19

the interest of multinationals, which

12:21

obviously would complicate things. So it

12:23

could be considered the other way

12:25

around. Because they do have resources,

12:27

there tend to be a lot of interests

12:30

that would be involved, which would really complicate

12:32

these geopolitical issues. Yeah, and it's something, I

12:34

mean, do you think, Tony, that the US

12:36

government wants to be involved at

12:38

all? I mean, we talked about in

12:40

the old days how it would be, and it wasn't

12:42

a happy history, but is the feeling now just stand

12:44

well back and see what happens? Well,

12:46

I think with the victory

12:48

of Javier Mallet in Argentina, I

12:51

think there is a sense that

12:53

things are changing in Latin America,

12:55

and I think there

12:57

is a desire to be more involved. When

13:00

we look at things like I've been watching the

13:03

gold price after hours, and it's bumped up and

13:05

down a little bit because there

13:07

is three, four billion dollars

13:09

of gold exports, I think, from Bolivia every year.

13:11

So I'm just keeping an eye on that. But

13:14

yeah, I think the US would like to

13:16

be more involved. But to be honest, our

13:18

State Department really has lost a lot of

13:20

their skills. And so I'm really not sure

13:23

that we know how to engage well in

13:25

Latin America. And Sergio, one of

13:27

the things that was mentioned interestingly by Diego was,

13:29

of course, about lithium being a resource.

13:33

Highly in demand now, as we know, for batteries

13:35

for electric cars and many other things besides. I

13:37

mean, that really is a resource that's

13:39

really important in the world now, isn't it? Absolutely,

13:42

especially where at the time that

13:44

is trying to change or alter

13:46

our global supply chain with excessive

13:48

inclination to China, we're trying to

13:50

rectify that. So we do

13:52

need these countries, particularly the likes of

13:54

Bolivia, which have recently

13:57

joined a MERSECOR, to basically.

14:00

be a partner to providing safe

14:02

and secure provision of goods. So these

14:04

are pretty bad news, especially when

14:06

we're having the war of hegemony between

14:08

the United States and China. Well,

14:11

let's now have a look at something that's very much close

14:13

to home where you are. Sichiro, of course,

14:15

and economic problems with very

14:17

different nature and scale, but interesting all

14:19

the same. And that's to do with

14:22

Japan because the currency, the yen,

14:24

is in a bit of trouble. It's reached

14:26

its lowest value according to some against the

14:28

dollar for 38 years. Now,

14:30

I'm going to ask what's going on. I'll come

14:32

back to you in a moment, Sichiro, but

14:34

I'm going to go to Takatoshi Ito, who joins

14:37

us. He's professor at the School of International and

14:39

Public Affairs at Columbia University in the US,

14:41

and obviously Japanese, at least in origin. Takatoshi, thank

14:43

you for being with us. Obvious

14:46

question, why is the yen so

14:49

low against the dollar right now? Well,

14:52

the immediate cause is the

14:55

interest rate differential between the US

14:57

and Japan. And this

14:59

started in 2022 when inflation rate in the

15:01

US and Europe

15:06

shot up to 8%, 10%.

15:10

And Federal Reserve and

15:12

ECB raised in policy rate

15:15

very quickly to a very high level. BOJ

15:18

didn't move because the Japanese

15:21

inflation rate was at

15:23

most 4%. So this

15:26

created a huge differential between

15:29

the US interest rate

15:32

and Japanese interest rate. And this

15:34

interest rate differential encouraged

15:38

the capital

15:40

flows out of Japan

15:42

into the US. And

15:44

so this started two years ago,

15:47

and as

15:51

the economic conditions stayed

15:56

similar, the same

15:58

for two years. I

16:00

think the yen depreciation continued.

16:02

But that's really interesting Takatashi. If I

16:05

can interrupt you there, because that difference

16:07

in the way of playing the interest

16:10

rate, you can understand it. But

16:12

was that because of the rather unique

16:16

economic conditions that have been in Japan for a

16:18

long time now, and people talk about stagnation going

16:20

back a very long way, was that

16:23

the reason? Because there was no need,

16:25

in effect, to do anything strong with

16:27

interest rates, because the Japanese economy just

16:29

didn't have the kind of push that

16:31

would require it. Yes

16:33

and no. The

16:37

long stagnation has, I

16:39

think, ended with the

16:41

economics and economic growth

16:43

and the vitality came

16:45

back since 2013. However,

16:50

that relied more

16:52

on the domestic strength

16:54

and foreign

16:57

choice to Japan. Now

17:00

the more recent

17:02

phenomena is that

17:04

even with this

17:06

depreciated yen level

17:08

around 150 years

17:11

since 2022, it did not cause the export boom. And

17:20

yes, the profits of the exporters

17:22

increased because the profit margin increased

17:25

with the yen depreciation. But they

17:27

did not produce

17:29

more to export from Japan.

17:32

They were content with producing

17:35

outside Japan and

17:37

take the profits in

17:41

their balance sheets, but

17:44

a profit loss and balance sheet.

17:46

But the actual movement

17:49

of the dollar into the

17:51

yen did not

17:53

happen. As you said,

17:56

that was Abenomics and Shinzo Abe is gone and

17:58

it has changed a bit. There

18:00

is still, it feels as if

18:02

the Japanese economy hasn't really moved on that much

18:04

from that. Well,

18:08

there are bigger other

18:10

reasons like working age

18:12

population has declined and

18:14

wage has not risen much. So

18:17

the consumption is still stagnating.

18:20

This is expected to change this year as

18:22

wage increase was very big in this ring.

18:24

Well, I was going to ask you about

18:26

what might, we've done describe the situation. What

18:29

is it that you expect from either the

18:31

Bank of Japan or the government or both

18:33

to try and deal with it? Right.

18:36

So some people,

18:39

including some politicians, demanding the

18:41

BOJ to increase the interest

18:43

rate so that interest rate

18:45

differential will be

18:47

narrowed, which would theoretically

18:49

cause the yen appreciation

18:52

or stop the yen depreciation.

18:55

However, the BOJ is still

18:57

very cautious that the inflation

19:01

rate is now coming down close

19:03

to 2%, which is a target

19:06

and inflation expectation has not risen

19:08

to 2%. So the

19:10

2% inflation target has not

19:12

been achieved sustainably.

19:18

That's the judgment of the BOJ.

19:20

So BOJ is reluctant to

19:22

raise interest rates very quickly.

19:25

Okay. Take it to us.

19:28

We're going to have to leave it there. But

19:30

thank you so much for being with us. Take

19:32

it to us. It's a there of Columbia University.

19:34

Well, Sajiro, let me come to you. I

19:37

guess this is a rather important thing for you. And

19:40

how does it work? Because we heard there

19:42

the suggestion from Takatoshi that the Bank of

19:44

Japan is still being very cautious. Kazuo Ueda,

19:47

the governor is very focused,

19:49

I think, on the targets. But

19:52

do you get a sense that the Bank of Japan

19:54

and the government have the means to try and sort

19:56

this out? That's a

19:58

good question because, well, You know,

20:00

you've used the word cautious, but I think

20:02

that is a very kind methodology of expression

20:05

because basically, in my opinion, they do not

20:07

have the deep pocket like that of the

20:09

Fed or the ECB. If

20:11

you consider the macro factors, you know, fastest

20:13

aging population with the second lowest birth rate,

20:15

along with the fact that, you know, inflation

20:17

that we've been talking about is not demand

20:19

pool inflation like that in the US, which

20:21

means that it's cost push inflation, meaning that,

20:24

you know, it is not as serious or

20:26

it's not, you know, longevity of this negative

20:28

issue of inflation fear

20:30

is going to prolong. So basically, you

20:32

put all these things together along with

20:34

the fact that economic situation really hasn't

20:36

come back as you just reported. You

20:39

know, it's very, very difficult for Bank of Japan

20:41

to raise the rates at this point. It's

20:44

almost like shooting your own foot. So, you

20:46

know, in my opinion, Bank of

20:48

Japan may give a lot of verbal intervention,

20:51

but actual intervention is very

20:53

difficult considering the reality of

20:55

economy and our macroeconomic environment.

20:58

Because it is that stagnation thing. Tony, what's

21:00

your thoughts as an outsider looking at this?

21:03

How do you see any progress

21:05

there could be for Japan in this? Because it's

21:07

a dire situation to be in. I mean, okay,

21:09

the economy is incredibly strong still, of course, but

21:12

being in this position with the yen is not good. Well,

21:15

you know, you had what I believe is a

21:17

planned devel in 2022 before Abe left office. When

21:22

Ueda came in, he's an extremely weak

21:24

central banker. And

21:27

I'm not sure markets believe him.

21:29

And because he's been trying to

21:31

talk strong without actually taking action,

21:34

markets don't believe him. And so it's pushing

21:36

against a piece of string effectively. So

21:38

you have to have the Ministry of

21:40

Finance actually take actions in the same

21:43

way in the US. When

21:45

Janet Yellen was the head of the Fed, she kept

21:47

complaining, we have monetary policy

21:49

actions, but there's no fiscal spending.

21:52

And so that's why the US economy wouldn't

21:54

move. Now that she's the

21:56

Treasury head, she's spending fiscal like

21:59

mad. Okay, so we have

22:01

Fed policy, central bank policy, and we

22:03

have fiscal policy. So in

22:05

Japan, I think there's a fear of active fiscal

22:07

policy because of things that happened in the 90s

22:09

and 2000s. But

22:12

until we have active fiscal policy, we're not going

22:14

to have wage rises and we're not going to

22:17

have consumption rise. So all of the, say,

22:19

growth you heard our friend from Columbia

22:22

talk about was in JPY terms, in

22:24

Japanese yen terms, it wasn't in US

22:26

dollar terms. So in US dollar

22:28

terms, things have really been flat. In

22:31

Japanese yen terms, things have because you

22:33

have D-Val, you know, in 2012,

22:35

the Japanese yen was trading at 76. It's now

22:38

trading at 160. So it's actually halved in value.

22:40

That's an extraordinary figure, isn't it? I mean, when

22:42

you think about it. But so Jerry, let me

22:44

put that to you the point that Tony was

22:47

making about the fiscal spending. Do you agree? Do

22:49

you think that's where it needs to be? I

22:52

totally agree with Tony in the sense that we

22:54

need a structural transformation. And this is something that

22:56

Japan had its homework for

22:58

over two decades. People say, you know,

23:00

we have two lost decades, but that's

23:02

exactly what they should have been doing,

23:04

but hadn't because of vested interest involved.

23:06

And this is our structural problem where

23:08

the corporations aren't taking any risks, for

23:11

example, and neither are the government. Now

23:13

this is the problem that we've got.

23:15

And particularly it may be from the

23:17

aftershock or PTSD from, you know, our

23:19

pop of the bubble days, but, you

23:21

know, corporations and the government are not

23:23

taking risks. So this is the biggest

23:25

problem. Also with the private consumption as

23:28

well, you know, the propensities will not

23:30

go up even for cash in the

23:32

faces of Japanese, because what they'll do

23:34

is they'll go to savings. It's

23:36

a very conservative nature. It's the conservatism, the caution,

23:38

the risk avoidance. I mean, these are the terms

23:41

that are always used, aren't they? But it does

23:43

seem to be a major part of the problem.

23:45

Well, thanks to both of you. Some really interesting

23:47

insights there, I think, into what is going on

23:50

in Japan. But stay with us much more coming

23:52

up here on Business Matters. Just a moment. We're

23:54

going to talk about another country with problems, very

23:56

different problems again. That's Kenya and other countries in

23:58

their involvement with the IMF. But we're all We're

24:01

also going to look at Spain's efforts to bring

24:03

some of its commerce back to the people locally

24:05

and talk about commerce conservation and rock music. That's

24:07

all coming up next. Stay with us. Hey,

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25:32

Welcome back to Business Matters with me,

25:34

Roger Heering and my guests today, Sajiro

25:37

Takashita and Tony Nash. Now Kenya's president

25:39

has backed away from a finance bill

25:41

that led to deadly riots on the

25:43

streets of Nairobi on Tuesday. William

25:46

Ruto said the people had made it clear

25:48

they wanted nothing to do with the bill

25:50

and its plan to increase taxes. He promised

25:52

to cut spending in the presidential office and

25:55

work to tackle the country's debts. It

25:57

is necessary for us to

25:59

have... a conversation as a nation going

26:03

forward. How do

26:06

we manage the affairs of the country

26:09

together? How

26:11

do we manage our debt situation

26:14

together? How do

26:16

we work on the budget

26:19

with the deficits that now exist together?

26:23

President William Rute, well the tax rises

26:25

Kenya has now abandoned, also

26:27

agreed in a deal with the International

26:29

Monetary Fund. Now some think there's a

26:32

pattern here because there have been similar

26:34

deals done in countries like Sri Lanka

26:36

that have also suffered civil unrest. Some

26:39

think the pressure on debt is

26:41

unfair and destructive. Sarah

26:43

Sedoon is a senior researcher and

26:45

advocate at Human Rights Watch in

26:47

New York. I asked her what

26:49

she thought was the big problem

26:51

with the Kenyan economy overall. Well

26:53

I think the Kenyan economy is

26:55

facing similar problems to many economies

26:57

across the globe in the wake

27:00

of COVID, of increasing prices following

27:02

Russia's invasion of Ukraine, of a

27:04

rise in interest rates that have

27:06

forced governments, particularly African governments, to

27:08

spend huge amounts of their revenue

27:11

on servicing debt. And so many

27:13

have gone to the IMF and

27:15

requested loan programs and as part

27:17

of those programs they are forced

27:19

to raise revenues and

27:21

reduce spending in ways that

27:23

can really hurt people's ability

27:25

to afford what they need,

27:28

to hurt their economic and

27:30

social rights. And rather than

27:32

making sure that the

27:34

cost of recovery, the burden of

27:36

recovery falls on those who can

27:38

afford it the most, they end

27:40

up cranking up regressive taxes or

27:43

cutting spending that for programs that

27:45

people rely on like health education

27:47

and it is fueling anger around

27:49

the world, not just in Kenya,

27:51

but we've seen of course most

27:53

recently in Kenya huge protests against

27:56

these measures. But Sarah isn't the

27:58

point that the IMF broke her

28:00

deals are there to try and

28:02

repay debt, to try and help the Kenyan

28:04

economy come out of debt so that it

28:06

can function in the world of

28:08

borrowing money around the world if it needs

28:10

to. And in a way,

28:12

it's the Kenyan government's responsibility or individual state's

28:15

responsibility as to how they divide up where

28:17

the money has to come from in that.

28:19

So this is what the IMF claims that

28:21

it's setting targets and it's on the government

28:23

to decide how it achieves them. But this

28:26

obscures a much more complex reality. First

28:28

of all, the position itself is a

28:31

problem. The question of whether a government

28:33

raises new revenues by, for example, increasing

28:35

the cost of goods and services that

28:37

people rely on versus, for example, kind

28:39

of closing loopholes, the

28:41

benefit wealthy corporations and individuals or

28:44

tackling corruption. These questions have serious

28:46

repercussions not only socially and on

28:48

human rights, but also from an

28:51

economic perspective on poverty and inequality.

28:54

And so it is absolutely within

28:56

the IMF's mandate and interest to

28:58

systematically conduct impact assessments of policies

29:00

to achieve targets to make sure

29:02

that the burden of recovery is

29:04

falling on people who could afford

29:07

it and not making life harder

29:09

for people who are already struggling.

29:11

But the IMF is a body

29:13

that has people who contribute to

29:15

it across the globe, nations, rich

29:17

nations, inevitably, who put money into

29:19

it and expect a kind of return and an

29:22

improvement in the economic health of the countries

29:25

that are being helped. So it's in

29:27

their interest to try and make sure this

29:29

works, but it has to work in quite

29:31

a rigorous way, doesn't it? You can't just

29:33

say, well, let them carry on as

29:35

before. So there's pressure coming from that side,

29:38

too. The suggestion is not to have the

29:40

government carry on as before. The suggestion

29:42

is actually to address the systemic problems that

29:45

actually force governments to come back over

29:47

and over and over again to the

29:50

IMF for more and more lending. If

29:52

the IMF's approach was working, we would

29:54

not be in the situation we are

29:57

in today where many governments are on

29:59

their seventh, eighth, fifteenth, twenty-second loan. And

30:01

part of the problem is that when

30:04

you cut public services, when you raise

30:06

taxes in ways that make people be

30:08

able to spend less, you're actually undermining

30:11

the health of the economy. The

30:13

way to a sustainable economy is

30:15

actually by fulfilling people's human rights,

30:17

by ensuring people have access to

30:19

health, to education, to universal social

30:22

security systems, and reducing

30:24

the vast economic inequality both within

30:26

and between countries. And until we

30:28

address these root causes, we will

30:31

be in the same cycle of

30:33

debt and IMF programs that many,

30:35

many governments are trapped in. Sarah Sadeun

30:38

there of Human Rights Watch speaking to

30:40

me from New York. Tony, do you

30:42

take the same view? Do you think

30:44

that the IMF really isn't handling these

30:46

things well? No,

30:49

you know, it's interesting countries like

30:52

Kenya could take the

30:54

path that Malaysia took in

30:56

1997 and refuse IMF money.

30:59

Malaysia was given a really hard

31:01

time at that time for refusing

31:03

to take IMF money. And

31:05

they ended up coming out of their

31:07

problems much quicker than other people. Thailand

31:09

took money and Thailand had to make

31:12

huge trade offs in order to pay

31:14

that loan back. So, you

31:16

know, I think it's sure it's easy

31:18

to take the view

31:21

that IMF is just trying to turn every

31:23

emerging country into kind of debt slaves, but

31:25

I really don't think that's what they're trying

31:27

to do. I think they're,

31:29

you know, these countries spend money, they need to

31:31

get out of debt. There is a global institution

31:33

that can help them get out of debt. You

31:36

know, are, is the IMF your best friend? No. I

31:38

mean, when they come in town, they're going to get

31:40

their money back, right? Well, yeah, but the point Tony

31:42

is, is yeah, they're not their friend, but they are

31:45

a friend in the sense that they want the country

31:47

to do better. And I suppose the argument is that

31:49

they're not going about it necessarily the right way. Well,

31:52

yes and no. I mean, I think it's always,

31:54

as a debtor, it's always hard. And I don't

31:56

mean this to sound harsh at all. I mean,

31:58

I've done a lot of work in places

32:00

like Cambodia, Myanmar, other places. So I'm not

32:03

just some guy sitting in Texas who, you

32:05

know, has never experienced these places. It's

32:07

very hard to pay back debt. But

32:10

those terms are on some

32:13

level somewhat negotiable. And

32:16

if progress is made, these

32:18

multilateral institutions on occasion will

32:21

work with those countries. Sri

32:23

Lanka is a good case where, you

32:25

know, they had the leader of that

32:27

country came in after a decade

32:30

and a half of another leader who just spent

32:33

wildly. The new

32:35

president was not popular because

32:37

he took IMF money. They're now having

32:39

to make a lot of trade offs

32:41

to trade offs to pay back the

32:43

IMF. But they're making progress, right? And

32:45

Sri Lanka is, you know, is slowly,

32:47

you know, making it back. And so

32:49

I think Kenya made some difficult choices.

32:53

The current president inherited a lot

32:55

of problems from his predecessor. That's not

32:57

a unique situation for these leaders

33:00

to be in. And the

33:02

poor are the ones who suffer. And

33:04

that's terrible. And that's the way it

33:06

is in every debt situation because the

33:09

poor are the ones who are typically the

33:11

most dependent on government services. And again, it's

33:13

a terrible situation. I'm in no way excusing

33:15

it. But that's, you know, that's the way

33:18

it happens because they're the ones who are

33:20

most dependent on government services. They're awful lying.

33:22

The poor suffer what they must. She's grim.

33:24

Sajirah, what's your take on this? Well,

33:27

one thing that we have to be careful

33:29

about is I totally read what Tony and

33:31

the lady from IMF is saying. But one

33:34

thing that we have to be careful about here is that 72%

33:37

of debt is towards China. And

33:40

the methodology that they adopt

33:42

is basically giving these debt

33:44

and confiscating the hard, for

33:46

example, infrastructures. And

33:49

that's a methodology that China had been taking. So

33:51

we have to be very careful about this, especially

33:53

with the likes of transaction 25 or the likes

33:55

of transaction 25. Oh,

34:01

it's basically countries that does not necessarily belong

34:03

to the free world side or the Unitarian

34:06

state side, but want to benefit both like

34:08

that of Brazil. And

34:10

of course, you know, these countries like in African

34:13

nations. So they want to

34:15

benefit from both. That's totally understandable. But

34:17

you know, behind it, there is a

34:20

war of hegemony, again, between China and

34:22

the United States and I should say

34:24

the free world versus Unitarian states. And

34:26

this is where we have to be very

34:28

careful to make sure that, you know, Kenya

34:30

doesn't lean towards the Unitarian state side. I

34:33

think this is one of the big pictures

34:35

that we have to always remind

34:37

ourselves in the back of our head. Yeah, I should.

34:40

Something like $8 billion owed to China, right? How

34:43

much did you say, Tony? I think it's $8

34:45

billion that Kenya owes to China. I

34:48

don't have that figure. I mean, so, Jerry, do you know that

34:50

what the figure would be? How much can you

34:52

owe to China? On the bilateral

34:54

depth, it's 72% to China, 8% to France, also 8% to Japan.

34:59

So you can see that they're very heavily

35:01

reliant on China in that sense. And

35:04

that's what I'm worrying about. You know, they do have

35:06

the rope around their neck, I think. Yeah. Well,

35:08

I should add that we did attempt to speak to the IMF on

35:11

all this, of course, because they've been, fingers

35:13

wagged at them, but they weren't able to

35:15

speak to us, unfortunately. Let's

35:18

move on to a different country

35:20

again. We're talking about Spain. In

35:22

Spain, the tourism boom in major

35:25

cities and gentrification are changing the

35:27

face of Spain's cities, once vibrant

35:29

community hubs, many traditional markets, and

35:31

now trendy nightlife spots with bars

35:34

and gourmet food stalls. As

35:36

supermarkets move in, locals who prefer

35:39

fresh, locally sourced food are forming

35:41

small cooperatives with local farmers. Well,

35:43

Ashish Varma visited one such group

35:46

at the San Fernando Market in

35:48

La Vapiez, Madrid. Luthia

35:51

and Marta prepared the shopping

35:53

bags for the 30 members

35:56

of their food association. Today, apart

35:58

from a butcher. and a fruit

36:01

store, this market is full of

36:03

chic bars and trendy eateries, largely

36:05

visited by tourists. According

36:12

to agri-food cooperatives of Spain,

36:14

associations like the one in

36:16

San Fernando contribute to generating

36:18

a turnover of over $43

36:20

million through a national membership

36:22

network of more than one

36:24

million people. These associations

36:27

have helped create over 122,000 jobs, predominantly in

36:29

rural areas. They're

36:34

formed by local people. My eggs, I'm going

36:36

to get the eggs. People

36:38

like Irené. I also used to come here to buy

36:42

fruits and fish and food.

36:46

And now this market

36:48

has become mostly

36:50

like a place for

36:53

drinking. Local shops,

36:56

local family

36:59

markets are disappearing in our neighborhoods.

37:01

Irené McNulty works for an organization

37:04

called Food Justice. She says the

37:06

problem with many markets like San

37:08

Fernando is that they're partially privately

37:11

owned and that means to pull

37:13

towards enterprises that can make money

37:15

overrides the needs of a local

37:18

community. We need the markets to

37:20

be back in public hands. They

37:23

need to be in network with local

37:25

food systems. They should include these local

37:27

markets as points to

37:29

guarantee local access to

37:31

food. And at the moment the food,

37:33

national food strategy is only thinking about

37:36

exporting food and it's not thinking about

37:38

feeding the local population. Now I've just seen

37:40

you Marta going up to collect your little

37:43

basket. So what have you got this week?

37:46

Eggplant, cucumber, garlic,

37:49

lettuce. How much do you pay for that?

37:51

In fact, I am the person who collects

37:53

all the money over all the people. So

37:55

you know. For

37:57

example, my bag is only veg-veg-veg-veg-veg-veg.

38:00

and is 26 euros per

38:02

month and with fruit is 36

38:04

per month. 24x for 8 euros, that is cheap

38:12

as well." The association is

38:14

driven by the principle of eating

38:16

food that is locally produced, ecologically

38:18

cultivated and seasonal, which means group

38:20

members don't know what food they

38:22

will have every week, as another

38:25

member Carol explained. We know the

38:27

vegetables when we collect that, not

38:29

before. We can choose.

38:31

Fruit is very difficult to have

38:33

from season, but most of the

38:35

vegetables are from Madrid and from

38:38

this farmer. I think it's good

38:40

to help and to

38:42

support local farmers, also

38:45

to eat ecological vegetables. In

38:47

Madrid there are a lot

38:49

of different groups that support

38:52

this kind of local farmers.

38:54

Here in Spain, the choice of

38:56

buying locally and more ecologically from

38:59

markets is now under threat, as

39:01

stall owners convert their spaces into

39:03

bars or gas drive food stalls.

39:06

But the growth of cooperatives and

39:08

associations filled with people who prefer

39:10

to support local producers does suggest

39:13

and forgive the pun that there

39:15

is a market that can cater

39:17

for all tastes. Ashish

39:19

Sharma there reporting from Spain. Now, Sajiro, last

39:21

time I was in Japan I remember I

39:23

was travelling to the area for kushima. Now,

39:26

for kushima of course has its own problems,

39:28

but it was a huge thing about local

39:30

produce, people buying local food. Obviously the fear

39:32

there at the time was to do with

39:35

radioactivity after of course the nuclear problems they

39:37

had around there. But is this thing of

39:39

eating local, avoiding I

39:41

suppose the big supermarket way of doing things,

39:44

is that active in Japan? Very

39:47

much so. Regressing back to

39:49

nature, regressing back to local food

39:51

is something that, especially in areas

39:53

like Shizoka, we tend to emphasize,

39:56

partly to induce and expel

39:58

the economy. of the local

40:00

side, but also to basically

40:02

prolong our tradition that we had

40:05

in the area. So, yeah, this is something that's been

40:07

going on very strong within

40:09

Japan. Mason- What would I

40:11

buy? What would I eat there? What would be

40:14

the local produce I could find? Kline-

40:16

We have the biggest fish

40:19

dock right in front

40:21

of us, the biggest bay of

40:23

Asuruga, which is the deepest in

40:25

Japan, meaning that the variety of

40:27

fish is just immense. We've got

40:29

mountains, so you can get all

40:32

these kind of mountain-related vegetables. We're

40:34

the only prefecture

40:36

in mainland Japan that

40:38

produces very heavily

40:40

on things like strawberries, because it's very

40:43

warm, etc., etc., etc. So, it's very

40:45

abundant. We've got the largest number of

40:47

onsen, which is spa hotels,

40:50

meaning that you can have a real

40:52

good relaxed time here. Mason-

40:54

I think you're selling shizuka pretty well

40:56

along around here. Tony, are you beginning

40:59

to ache to take yourself off to

41:01

shizuka? Tony- Yes, immediately. Mason- Welcome. Tony-

41:03

All right, I'm going to bounce the

41:05

question back to you then, Tony. In

41:08

Texas, when things of

41:11

Houston, big city, of course, huge amounts

41:13

of product on a very industrial scale,

41:15

but what about local produce and buying

41:17

local produce? Does it happen in Houston?

41:20

Tony- Oh, absolutely. I'm

41:23

sure you've heard of this secret

41:25

called Texas Barbecue and Texas

41:27

Brisket. All those cows are

41:30

raised here. Texas is a

41:32

very large farming state, and

41:34

there's a lot of beer, a lot of other

41:37

things made here. The other

41:39

interesting thing, Roger, is

41:41

Houston is the most

41:43

diverse city in America.

41:45

We have international dishes

41:47

made from local dishes.

41:50

Vietnamese groups, Latin American groups,

41:52

and Indian groups. There are

41:54

huge populations,

41:58

more so than any other city in

42:00

America. So we're not just making text

42:02

in dishes with text and ingredients.

42:04

We're making global dishes with local ingredients That's

42:06

really interesting. Isn't it that that is and

42:08

it's accepted by everybody I mean you are

42:10

you know, I suppose the original Immigrant

42:13

state in a way, you know, everybody comes

42:15

to America and becomes American but they bring

42:17

with it their own cultures And that is

42:20

observed and and enjoyed by everyone Absolutely.

42:22

Yeah here to you said we absolutely do that.

42:24

Yeah and Let

42:26

me play that back then to you so jury

42:28

because you have a kind of

42:31

monoculture in Japan I've noticed that

42:33

you don't have people coming in and bringing

42:35

this kind of variety Do you think that's

42:37

that's a lack really in Japan? I mean

42:39

you have a vibrant local culture, but you

42:41

know, maybe something more like the diversity of

42:44

Houston would help Well

42:46

is one of the biggest problem that I think

42:48

Japan will face and that is basically in inheritance

42:52

of immigrants We

42:54

have a large number of foreigners coming to Japan

42:56

not only the tourists but the workers as well

42:59

But you know will they stay in

43:01

Japan? The answer is usually no particularly

43:03

because we do have a very strong

43:05

regulations as well as people's perception of

43:07

I should say Accepting these foreigners are

43:09

not really open So the mindset really

43:11

has to change to a much more

43:13

diverse, you know a community And this

43:16

is what we lack about and this

43:18

is what I always argue about here

43:20

in Shizuoka But we really have to

43:22

open up particularly. Yeah, we there's a

43:24

lot of things that we can learn

43:26

from Houston Maybe yeah, so maybe you

43:28

should have some I don't know food

43:30

from all sorts of other places Arabic

43:32

food and maybe glad to visit to

43:35

teach you There's

43:37

an offer. There we are. You've got an offer

43:39

there. So Giro well, we can exchange we can

43:41

exchange Yeah, bring it all through. All right Well

43:44

another aspect of all this of what

43:46

we preserve and what we change I

43:48

guess is is to do with ecology

43:50

and the environment now saving animals from

43:53

extinction Isn't exactly an easy task at

43:55

the best of times. We're gonna stick

43:57

in Spain though because a conservation center

43:59

there has found the task particularly tough

44:02

just in the last few days. And

44:04

with, one has to say, tragic results.

44:07

The centre is near the southern Spanish

44:09

town of Almería, and it's become the

44:11

home for an endangered species of gazelle.

44:14

But staff there say loud music from

44:16

a nearby festival over the weekend scared

44:19

the animals so badly they panicked, they ran

44:21

into walls, breaking bones and leaving four of

44:23

them for dead. This may have

44:25

been part of what they were running from. I

44:29

think you'd agree it

44:32

doesn't sound too frightening,

44:34

but it's the music

44:36

of Ogun Afrobeat, one

44:42

of the bands that was playing on Saturday. Now,

44:44

the City Council in Almería, who organised the

44:46

festival, say the conservation centre's been

44:49

too hasty, pointing the finger at them. They

44:51

think the cause of the animals' deaths isn't

44:53

clear-cut at all. Well, the

44:55

BBC's Malu Cursino has been following this

44:57

story and explained why the festival has

44:59

been allowed to go ahead with vulnerable

45:02

animals so close by. They measured the

45:04

decibels on rehearsals beforehand and

45:06

they didn't think it would disrupt the

45:08

animals at all. So the local authorities

45:10

have said that the decibels measured were

45:12

65 decibels, which in

45:15

their opinion was not enough to

45:17

cause any huge disruption, but the

45:19

conservation centre begs to differ. Well,

45:22

Malu also explained why the gazelles

45:24

are particularly important and why the

45:27

noise may have caused an issue.

45:29

So these gazelles, they're three different

45:31

species at this conservation centre and

45:33

what makes them special is that they're

45:35

native to Northern Africa, but

45:38

where they are from, originally

45:40

they're endangered and not able

45:42

to survive in the wild

45:44

as well. So this conservation

45:46

centre serves the community, the

45:48

biodiversity community worldwide, and

45:50

they've been able to build up numbers

45:53

quite significantly to the point that now

45:55

they're around 400 gazelles at the centre

45:57

and they are particularly sensitive to noise.

45:59

particularly at this time of the year.

46:02

So it's their breeding season right now.

46:04

So it's not just the

46:06

music, but it's also the vibration and

46:08

everything around it. Some of

46:10

them ran into walls, breaking their neck

46:12

and legs. It was quite traumatic. Malo

46:15

Cosino, they're reporting. Now, Tony, I mean, this throws

46:18

up a whole issue. People, Generation

46:20

Z or Z, whatever you want to call

46:22

them, they like going to festivals, but they're

46:24

also very into conservation. There is this clash,

46:27

if you like, I suppose, between the way

46:29

we enjoy ourselves and the way we try

46:31

and preserve the environment. It

46:33

can be difficult. And who

46:35

wants to herd a gazelle, Roger? I looked

46:37

up photos of gazelles as you were talking.

46:40

Okay, well, just tell us what these ones

46:42

look like. Give us a sort of verbal

46:44

picture. They have really

46:46

long horns and they look like

46:49

kind of like deer, but they look

46:51

really graceful. Yeah. So nobody wants to

46:54

herd a gazelle, right? Right. I think

46:56

so. So, you know, it's

46:58

a balance. It really is hard. And so when

47:00

people have festivals saying the country or whatever, and,

47:02

you know, I really don't know

47:05

the answer. I'm not an expert there, but it's

47:07

a balance. And I don't think any of the

47:09

contours would want to herd a poor gazelle or

47:11

any animal. I just

47:13

think they probably weren't aware of it. Well, yeah. And

47:15

I suppose if you get a hold of festivals somewhere,

47:18

maybe there are things nearby that

47:20

aren't going to enjoy it. I mean, that's the

47:22

nature of it. It's a gyro. I mean, you

47:24

know, many of us would have different choices of

47:26

music. We might not be terrified about the music,

47:28

but we don't want it necessarily. But where do

47:30

you stand? Because I mean, a country like Japan

47:32

in many areas is quite crowded. Trying to preserve

47:34

nature and at the same time let people enjoy

47:36

themselves is an issue. Well,

47:39

you know, where we forgive and where we don't

47:41

forgive, I think is a very, very difficult line.

47:43

You know, as you just pointed out in Japan,

47:45

we have a lot of these rules, unwritten rules.

47:47

For example, for all the foreigners coming to Japan,

47:49

I must warn you not to use your mobile

47:51

phone when you're on the train. You're

47:53

not supposed to talk on the train. Oh, that's actually

47:55

that's really interesting. That's news you can use. I didn't

47:58

know that. What why is it a problem? to

48:00

use your microphone on the train? Because

48:02

it's noisy and it annoys other people, so you have

48:04

to go to the deck to talk. But

48:07

on the other hand, when it comes to election time in Japan,

48:09

you have these candidates on their

48:11

car with a big microphone yelling

48:13

into your house, vote for me,

48:16

which is irritating and very, very

48:18

noisy. But that's forgiven. So it

48:20

depends. It's very difficult with our

48:22

diverse cultures, which is

48:24

really starting to have many types

48:27

of values. It's very difficult,

48:29

I think, to really draw the line on

48:32

where you're stating. Now that is interesting, isn't it? And

48:34

Tony, I mean, you've worked in that neck of the

48:36

woods, I think. You worked a lot in Asia. There

48:38

are lots of social rules like that and things that

48:40

are permitted not permitted. And it's all to do with,

48:43

I suppose, being living on one on top of

48:45

each other. Does that cause problems in Houston? Because

48:47

you said you've got a multiplicity of cultures there.

48:49

Do people always get what's allowed and what isn't?

48:52

Yeah, I think so. In Japan, you

48:54

have what's called a high-context culture. There's

48:56

a lot that's not communicated but understood.

48:59

In the US, generally, we have a

49:01

low-context culture where everything's

49:03

pretty explicit. I mean, Americans,

49:06

we put everything out on the table. We're

49:10

pretty transparent about things, that sort of thing.

49:12

That's because we live in a low-context immigrant

49:15

culture. And so we're not

49:17

really secretive, typically. Let's just explain. What

49:19

does low-context mean or high-context? How do

49:21

you define that? Low-context means there's

49:23

a lot of explanation behind what's

49:26

going on. So there might be

49:28

cultural traditions. There might be social

49:31

traditions. These sorts of things. In

49:33

a low-context culture where you have a

49:36

lot of different people, you can't have

49:38

those complicated rules. You just can't. So

49:41

a low-context culture is almost like what

49:43

you see as what you get culture.

49:47

Because there are so many different

49:49

people from different perspectives interacting that

49:51

you can't have unspoken rules.

49:56

So if I were to go to Tokyo and go to

49:58

the Tsukiji market and buy fish or something, something like that,

50:01

I could not buy fish because I wouldn't

50:03

know what to do. There are so many

50:05

things to do there that you have to

50:07

know by tradition, right? If I were

50:09

to go down to my local supermarket here in

50:11

Houston and buy fish, it would be very easy.

50:13

The price would be out. I could ask questions,

50:15

you know, that sort of thing. It would be

50:18

very transparent and very easy. So I

50:20

think in a place like Japan,

50:22

you know, you really have to

50:24

understand a lot of context. And

50:26

that's why when I was working in Japan,

50:29

I would stay quiet a lot, just

50:31

so that I didn't embarrass myself. So,

50:34

Geri, does that all ring true? Do you think that's right?

50:36

I mean, you've traveled in America. Do you find it easier?

50:38

You can just see what there is and demand it or

50:40

do whatever and you're not going to offend anybody? No,

50:43

absolutely. That is exactly the case. I

50:45

mean, it's

50:47

evolving a lot of cultural traits

50:49

as well as, I should say,

50:52

peer pressure, especially in Japan, where

50:54

you don't hurt other people's feelings.

50:57

And this is very much of an

50:59

egalitarian society. So it involves a lot

51:01

of cultural value as well as our

51:03

societal picture of what we are right

51:06

now. So it's a very complicated

51:08

issue. But, you know, just to give you

51:10

one example, you know, like in diet session

51:12

in Japan, when you have the opposition giving

51:15

out a proposal and the government saying, we

51:18

will take that into consideration, it basically

51:20

means get lost. But that is one

51:24

message. We have a similar thing in Britain. We say,

51:26

oh, yes, I'll think about that. And

51:29

of course, we don't mean it. And all

51:31

this came from gazelles, those poor gazelles. I

51:33

guess if it happened in Japan, there'd be

51:35

a lot of apologizing and bowing going on

51:37

from the concertgoers for the poor gazelles. But

51:39

we will apologize for expanding your time

51:41

over business matters. But I hope you'll come back tomorrow.

51:43

My thanks to Sir Giro, my thanks to Tony, my

51:45

thanks to all of you for listening. That's it from

51:47

us. Bye bye. a

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