0:01

This is exactly right. Case.

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Files and award winning podcast presents

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by an anonymous host, Case

0:13

File delves deeper into the

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Kate Winkler Dawson of a journalist

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0:49

I'm Paul Holes retired cold case the best

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week I present Paul with one

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of history's most compelling, true. Crimes

1:00

And I were you using modern

1:02

forensic techniques to bring new insights

1:04

to old mysteries. Together, using

1:07

our individual expertise, we're examining

1:09

historical true crime cases through

1:11

a twenty first century lens.

1:14

Summer solved and summer cold.

1:16

Very cold. This is

1:18

buried bones. Ache

1:41

eight, Are you? Hey. Paul I'm doing

1:44

well. How about you? Know you're making and in

1:46

there. So what's been going on with your. Well,

1:48

I'm very excited because the trailer for

1:50

Season twelve of Tenfold more Wicked drops

1:52

in a little more than a week.

1:54

I know that you're in disbelief that

1:57

I actually do a show, that doesn't

1:59

It. all views.

2:01

But that was the

2:03

original. That was my OG show, 10

2:05

Fold More Wicked. This is an exciting

2:08

season for me. It's different than

2:10

what folks are used to. They

2:12

are used to the seasons like

2:14

the ones that we're doing right

2:16

now, which is about one family and

2:18

a tragedy. This is

2:21

actually a carryover from

2:23

season 11. It's the same family,

2:25

a very dramatic family

2:27

line that includes Lizzie Borden,

2:30

which is a huge deal. And

2:32

it involves this cursed family, if

2:35

you want to believe in curses,

2:37

and not only that, but Fall

2:39

River, Massachusetts, which is where Lizzie

2:42

Borden was. And there is a

2:44

two or three block long section

2:46

that has over 150 years seen

2:49

some of the most unbelievable tragedy,

2:52

including the Lizzie Borden case where

2:54

she was acquitted for murdering her

2:56

stepmother and her father. So it's

2:58

sort of, do you believe in cursed families and

3:00

do you believe in cursed towns?

3:03

And we go through all of these cases that

3:06

happen just in this little area with

3:08

this kind of one family. Well,

3:11

I will say over the course

3:13

of my career that yes, I

3:15

have seen families that have

3:17

bad things happen to them over and

3:19

over again, as well

3:22

as locations. In fact, in my old

3:24

jurisdiction, there's a neighborhood in which I

3:26

had over the course of a decade,

3:28

multiple serial killers committing

3:31

crimes in this one

3:33

little neighborhood. And

3:35

it's like, how do you explain that? Why there? I

3:38

don't know about this mystical curse

3:41

aspect, but I'm open

3:43

minded. Maybe there's a curse.

3:45

Okay. Listen, what I want to make clear is

3:47

that I actually really like Fall River. I don't

3:49

think there's anything wrong with being a cursed city.

3:52

Actually, I think it's kind of cool. This

3:55

season really covers A

3:57

lot of different time periods, but it really is this

3:59

like... Two to three block radius

4:01

that has seen a lot of things happen

4:03

and I'm not sure everybody who visits the

4:06

Lizzie Borden Health knows that. So I I've

4:08

always been interested in the Lizzie Borden

4:10

case. I don't actually want to know if

4:12

she really did it or not. I like

4:15

the mystery. like a Jack the Ripper

4:17

type thing. I know that is not something

4:19

you want everything solved. I think. right?

4:21

Are ideally you know for sure you know

4:24

that's that's the whole point of what I've

4:26

been a while I got into what I

4:28

do Both you know it's your would you

4:31

start talking about these the store crimes. Obviously

4:33

it's more of okay what can we learn

4:35

from them? What were you notice as you

4:37

know we talk about here in Barry Bodes

4:40

you know so well the time periods different.

4:42

It's interesting to learn about that the cultural

4:44

and societal differences. But then we also see

4:47

as we always talk about while the reason

4:49

these crimes are committed. As for. The. Same

4:51

reasons today as they were

4:53

back then. Well, this season

4:55

of tenfold is unique. And I'm

4:57

really excited. Speaking of tenfold, the

4:59

story that we are about to

5:01

talk about number one is Huge.

5:03

so it's a two parter, and

5:05

number two, it is connected to

5:08

a tenfold season that I did

5:10

a couple of years ago, which

5:12

was a series of murders that

5:14

happened in Austin, Texas in the

5:16

late eighteen hundreds. we're going to

5:18

be talking about and my opinion,

5:20

the most well known. Serial killer you've

5:22

never heard of which is the servant

5:24

girl. Annihilate. Or it was. You know, a

5:26

series of crimes happened to him in in

5:28

of eighteen late eighteen hundreds in Austin when

5:31

it was a growing city and you and

5:33

I have never talked about it. I have

5:35

talked about it and ten fold because it

5:37

was related to a different story. But

5:39

you and I have never unraveled this sort

5:41

of unsolved. Crime before. It's very, very

5:43

old. Okay, so this is

5:45

in many ways this upcoming a case

5:48

is a spinoff from Tenfold More Wicked

5:50

then. Yes, Is an odd way

5:52

it is and I'm gonna have to throw a

5:54

syria you that I explore and tenfold more wicked

5:56

and to see if the how it sticks let's

5:58

see if the spaghetti stick. To the first

6:00

approach of at it is a that how

6:02

you to determine if your spaghetti noodles are

6:04

down as you throw him out the refrigerator.

6:07

That's what my grandma told me. Not years,

6:09

I guess not her. I guess I will

6:11

have to try said. Okay,

6:14

let's go back to Austin, Texas

6:16

and eighteen Eighty Five and what

6:19

set the scene. First

6:21

off, I like to give trigger warnings.

6:23

This does have some discussion of a

6:25

lot of brutality and I will say

6:28

this: Paul I've never told you this

6:30

before but when I watch. Shows when

6:32

I do stories, when I write books.

6:34

Knives and sharp objects really freaked

6:37

me out. It's really hard for

6:39

me to. Watch a movie. Even pure

6:41

description of a real crime involving a

6:43

nice. It just scares the daylights out

6:45

of me. and there's a lot and

6:48

nice stuff happening in the story. Okay,

6:50

yeah, you know obviously have worked a

6:52

lot of cases in which the weapon

6:55

with was a nice and there's good

6:57

reason to be scared by knives. You

6:59

know that that the type of injuries

7:02

that they inflict are brutal, but I

7:04

am. Well versed if you

7:06

will in terms of the wounds

7:08

that nice can produce, and so

7:10

I'm very interested to hear the

7:12

facts of this case. So

7:14

two things for listeners. One is

7:16

the descriptions of the wounds of

7:18

somebody like Jack the Ripper victims.

7:20

If they upset you, this is

7:23

probably not the episode for you

7:25

because this is brutal. And number

7:27

two, I do have to talk

7:29

about two children who were murdered

7:31

in a story that tangential to

7:33

this one. so I will go

7:35

quickly through. that's so just some

7:37

warnings I'd try to remember to

7:40

to let people know about that

7:42

sounded. Paul that sounds good. Can.

7:45

You guess the longest someone has

7:47

gone without sleep. No, I don't

7:50

know. having him. If you don't get enough

7:52

sleep, you die. I would say five six

7:54

days. The. answer is a levin days

7:56

and twenty five minutes the record

7:58

was back in nineteen sixty at

8:00

a San Diego science fair. Randy

8:02

Gardner, then a high school student,

8:04

won first place and set the

8:06

world record which he still holds today.

8:09

That sounds absolutely miserable. I think Randy

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10:42

so, 1885, Austin, Texas, the very

10:44

best city in the entire world.

10:47

I think everybody knows that by

10:49

now because they're all moving here.

10:51

Well, I think you also have a

10:54

personal bias. No.

10:58

Listen, I'll tell you, Paul, I lived in London,

11:00

New York. I went to school in Boston. I

11:02

lived in LA. I lived in

11:04

San Francisco. And Austin is still the best place

11:06

for me. Yeah, you know, I've only,

11:08

as a kid, when I was

11:10

living in San Antonio with my parents, I think we

11:13

drove up through Austin once. But that's

11:15

really been my only experience. And I

11:17

don't remember it, of course. No. So

11:21

let's talk about this story. This story involves, and

11:23

I know most of this because of my buddy,

11:25

Skip Hollinsworth, who is one of the

11:28

best journalists on the planet. He's with

11:30

Texas Monthly. And he wrote

11:32

a book that was based on an article

11:34

that he wrote for Texas Monthly in the

11:36

year 2000, which I barely remember.

11:39

And the article was called Capital Murder.

11:42

And it was about the Midnight Assassin is what

11:45

the name of the book was. But it was

11:47

about the person who was known

11:49

as the servant girl annihilator, which

11:51

we'll talk about in a little bit, was

11:54

not exactly an accurate moniker for him to

11:56

have. But you know, Skip wrote

11:58

this amazing article, and then he got a deal

12:01

and The Midnight Assassin is a really good

12:03

book and there's so much historical context. I

12:05

need to go through a little bit of

12:07

it before we start really digging into the

12:10

story. But there's a lot of murder that

12:12

happens here. There's a lot of issues with

12:14

race, which isn't surprising at all. 1885, Austin

12:18

Texas. A lot of sort

12:20

of complications. So let's just get going with

12:22

where we are in time. So Austin is

12:25

growing big time by 1885. Two decades earlier

12:27

it was about

12:30

5,000 people and by the mid 1880s it was somewhere between

12:32

23,000 and 30,000

12:37

people, which is huge growth. You

12:39

have to picture downtown Austin as

12:42

like mule-drawn streetcars. There's this beautiful

12:44

opera house. There's ice

12:46

cream parlors in restaurants. It's really

12:48

growing. There's a Capitol building

12:50

that's under construction. And then what I

12:53

will say modestly is the best hotel

12:55

on the planet, which is the Driscoll

12:57

Hotel. It is haunted for

12:59

sure. I have stayed there

13:02

with my kid and watched The Shining,

13:05

which scared the crap out of both

13:07

of us. We stayed in the historical

13:09

wing. People have died

13:11

there. It is the most beautiful,

13:14

but in some ways the creepiest

13:16

hotel around. So that just sort of

13:18

paints a picture of where we are. Yeah, you're

13:20

really selling me on this hotel. It's gorgeous.

13:24

It's a wonderful

13:26

hotel. I was just there two weeks ago. I took my kid

13:28

over one of our little

13:31

breaks and it was it was great to

13:33

stay there. But yeah, haunted hotels are a

13:35

mixed bag for me sometimes. This

13:37

is on a national level. This is 12

13:39

years after the Civil War. So this

13:41

is sort of the beginning of reconstruction. So

13:44

one thing that's interesting that I

13:46

want to start out with is, you know, there

13:48

are a couple of researchers that I'll give an

13:50

on to. One is Skip Hollinsworth. One is a

13:52

guy named J.R. Galloway, who was at

13:54

the University of Texas. And basically he wrote a

13:57

book that it sounds to me like he was

13:59

able to have access to so many newspaper

14:01

articles from the 1800s, he was able to

14:03

get a really good sense for this story.

14:06

And Skip really nodded to Galloway as in this

14:08

is somebody who did a lot of research.

14:11

So let's start with my first

14:13

question for you. This person was

14:15

named the servant girl annihilator, even

14:18

though this case does not

14:20

exclusively involve black women who

14:22

are servants or I mean,

14:25

that's, you know, the older term

14:27

for it or assistants or helpers or

14:29

housekeepers. It expands to

14:31

two white women and to

14:33

a couple of men. So where

14:36

do we come up with the names of

14:38

serial killers? I know what happened with the

14:40

Golden State Killer and Michelle McNamara,

14:43

but generally, is this a media thing

14:45

where they come up with the Colonial

14:47

Parkway Killer and all of these different

14:49

names? Yes, in most

14:51

instances, the monikers given to

14:53

serial predators are media driven.

14:56

And oftentimes, the moniker is not

14:58

descriptive of the types of crimes

15:00

that the predator is doing,

15:02

whether they are, let's say, a

15:04

serial rapist or a serial killer.

15:06

So it's not surprising to me

15:08

that this servant girl annihilator moniker

15:10

is kind of missing

15:13

the mark to be inclusive

15:15

of all the victimology. Nor

15:17

is it surprising that you

15:19

have a single offender who

15:22

is killing black women, white

15:24

women, men. This is

15:27

what is called crossover offending. It

15:29

is a myth that

15:31

these predators choose a certain victim

15:34

type and only stick with that

15:36

victim type. And a lot of

15:38

that myth really kind of

15:40

comes out of the Ted Bundy

15:42

era in which everybody thought Ted

15:44

Bundy only killed brunette

15:47

females with hair parted down the

15:49

middle, which is not true. But

15:53

that's what the media propagated. And

15:55

so oftentimes, law

15:57

enforcement during Unsolved Series

16:00

has so much more details about

16:02

the cases than what the media

16:04

does. And so the media is

16:06

relying upon scant details to

16:09

kind of formal opinions that

16:11

oftentimes are wrong. Danielle Pletka Yes,

16:13

I hear you with the wrong opinions of media,

16:16

but they do come up with some

16:18

quippy little monikers for serial killers. And

16:20

this one was the servant girl

16:22

annihilator. Servant girl is not a

16:24

phrase I would normally use. So when I use

16:26

it, it's because this is how they were literally

16:28

described in 1885. The

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sponsoring this episode. So

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let's start with it. We are in December of

18:07

1884, December

18:10

30th. So for you local Austinites, I'm

18:12

gonna say the name of the street

18:14

that it was and then I'll tell

18:16

you what it is because they got switched around

18:18

quite a bit. I thought this was interesting. The

18:20

first thing happened on December 30th of 1884 and the address is 901 West

18:23

Pecan Street. Pecan

18:28

Street is now 6th Street. So if

18:30

you've come to Austin and you want

18:32

to really see a lot of

18:34

partying and a lot of drinking, 6th Street is

18:36

definitely one of the places you would go. It's

18:38

where I grew up going, but back then

18:40

it was a residential area and the victim

18:42

is a black woman in her early 20s.

18:45

Her name is Molly

18:47

Smith. So we're just going

18:49

to jump right into it and I hope I have enough

18:51

information for you. You know in the 1800s they were vague

18:53

and there was a lot

18:56

of propriety. I mean I struggled

18:58

with when corners or whatever

19:00

you want to call them back then,

19:03

pathologists, city physician in this case, wouldn't

19:05

even necessarily take the clothes off of

19:07

the victim out of propriety. So I

19:09

hope I have enough information for

19:12

you here. So Molly Smith

19:14

was sleeping in her bed apparently that

19:16

she shared with her boyfriend who was

19:18

a 30 year old named Walter Spencer, also

19:20

black. So she lived in

19:22

a cabin on the property of

19:25

her white employer who was a

19:27

man named Walter Hall. He was an insurance salesman.

19:29

Molly was a cook in

19:31

the Hall's home. She was sleeping

19:33

in her bed and had apparently been

19:36

attacked that night, dragged

19:39

out of her bed. Now

19:41

we're talking about snow, just this one

19:43

instance because I'm telling you it never snows

19:45

here. There was a little bit of a

19:48

snowiness on the backyard, dragged out onto the

19:50

snow in the backyard, laid

19:52

by an outhouse and

19:54

murdered. And I have details on

19:56

potential sexual assault and then I

19:58

have details of course on what

20:00

ended up happening with her. The boyfriend,

20:03

he was attacked too, but he survived, but

20:05

it sounds like he was attacked in the

20:07

bed and was never taken out of the

20:09

bed. Okay, so you have an

20:11

offender that is willing to go into a

20:13

house with a man and woman who are

20:15

in bed. He attacks these

20:17

two victims. I mean, he's taking

20:20

on a male, and this is sort

20:22

of like Golden State Killer. You know,

20:24

this is where Joseph DeAngelo is willing

20:26

to engage with a male present in

20:28

the house. This tells me that this

20:30

offender has a lot of self-confidence in

20:32

their physical ability and is willing to

20:34

take on this higher-risk crime. It's

20:37

interesting that now after attacking

20:39

the male, the offender is dragging

20:42

the female outside and there's snow on

20:44

the ground. It's cold, and this is

20:46

where he is now potentially sexually assaulting

20:49

and killing the victim. Were

20:51

there other people inside the house? Is there a

20:53

reason why the offender is taking her outside? It

20:56

sounds like it was just Molly and

20:58

her boyfriend Walter. Walter has a head

21:00

wound. It sounds like he

21:02

was likely attacked first. He had a head wound

21:05

by an axe and doesn't remember anything. He

21:07

survived, but he doesn't remember anything. She is

21:09

dragged out. Now, there is a main house

21:11

that's in front of the cabin in which,

21:14

you know, the insurance salesman and his family

21:16

presumably are, but it's just Walter and Molly

21:18

at this point in bed. Okay,

21:21

so the offender is hitting Walter

21:24

in the head with an axe. It

21:26

sounds like the offender is now

21:28

trying to remove Molly away, get

21:30

space between him and Molly

21:33

from Walter. This tells

21:35

me the offender doesn't have confidence that

21:38

he has completely incapacitated Walter. So he's

21:41

now trying to generate space so

21:43

he can spend time with his

21:45

intended victim, which is Molly. Walter

21:47

is just, he is

21:49

just trying to eliminate this

21:51

threat, but the intended victim

21:53

is Molly, and it sounds like this

21:56

is a sexually motivated crime. you

22:00

can tell me what you think. She was found on

22:02

her back almost completely naked,

22:04

which in the 1800s would

22:06

have been shocking for a city physician or investigators

22:09

to come. That's why

22:11

they think that she had been raped. My

22:13

very first book was set in the 1950s with serial

22:16

killer John Reginald Christie. And

22:18

I remember reading The Pathologist

22:20

being able in the 1950s

22:22

to specifically say Seaman was

22:24

present when I did an autopsy.

22:26

They are not going to say that here. They

22:29

say that because she was mostly

22:32

naked and that

22:34

her sexual organs were

22:37

exposed, it suggested to

22:39

some that there was a sexual assault.

22:42

But I would not say that any

22:44

autopsy or anything is going to be

22:46

definitive in that way. But stripping her

22:49

down and brutalizing her

22:51

sounds pretty clear to me, right? This

22:53

is a sexually motivated crime. Now

22:55

back then, they're probably not

22:58

looking for the physical evidence that

23:00

could prove rape. And

23:02

when I use the term rape, I

23:04

come out of the California statutes. Rape

23:07

per California is a penetration of the

23:09

vagina by the penis, no matter how

23:11

slight. You can have rape

23:14

and no semen present. There is

23:16

no ejaculation. There's all

23:18

these different sex acts that these offenders

23:20

do. It all depends on what the

23:23

offender wants to get out of the

23:25

crime, what the offender's fantasy is. So

23:28

in this instance, we don't know the

23:30

sex act that the offender did, but

23:33

we know because she is stripped

23:35

down, there is a sexual motivation

23:37

to this crime. And

23:39

he separated her, which I know is another big clue

23:41

for you, obviously. If he just wanted

23:44

to come in, so the bedroom is

23:46

definitely turned upside down. Somebody

23:48

is looking for something, I don't know

23:50

if it's a thick of value, but

23:53

to take the chance to drag her

23:55

into the public, even if it's in

23:57

the backyard, is motivating. You're right. It's got

23:59

to be. something that's sexually motivated. Well

24:02

I think you know the the undressing of the

24:04

body is what's telling me there's a sexual motivation.

24:07

The separation, you know pulling her

24:09

outside, I believe the reason for

24:11

that is because of Walter. And

24:13

this is where the offender is

24:15

not confident that he has dispatched

24:17

Walter to the point where now

24:19

he can take his time with

24:22

Molly inside the house or even

24:24

inside the very bedroom in which

24:26

Molly and Walter were sleeping together.

24:28

This may inform me that the

24:30

offender is a novice

24:32

when it comes to killing. Okay and

24:34

that's gonna be interesting for later on,

24:36

a novice. Okay and we'll see what

24:38

progresses as we have many other victims

24:40

coming up. Two things,

24:42

one I said this place was

24:45

in disarray. It could have been that he

24:47

was looking for something but also there was

24:49

clearly it sounds like Walter put up a

24:51

fight. The furniture was in disarray, there was

24:53

glass broken, they found a bloody

24:55

axe on the floor. So

24:58

they did not identify whether or not this

25:00

was from the people

25:02

who lived there or from Molly

25:04

and Walter. Everybody had axes back

25:06

then of course but the

25:08

bloody axe is on the floor. So he drags

25:10

her out and it sounds like he has another

25:12

weapon. There's a city physician is what they were

25:14

called in the 1800s named William

25:17

Jefferson Burt who comes to the scene. And

25:19

if you've heard that season I told

25:21

you about of tenfold more wicked you'll recognize

25:23

his name because he becomes important. So

25:26

the city physician, one guy, would show

25:28

up to all of these different murders

25:30

and assess what happened, help solve the

25:32

case you know and he says Molly

25:35

had been stabbed in the chest,

25:37

the abdomen, the arms and the

25:40

legs and had a deep wound

25:42

in the side of her head. That to me

25:44

sounds like a knife also because

25:46

the axe was left inside. Yeah

25:48

you know depending on description of

25:50

the wounds to Molly, I'm

25:53

going to assume it's a knife versus a screwdriver

25:55

or an ice pick or something like that. You

25:57

know it is interesting he goes into into

26:00

the house with an axe. After

26:04

using the axe on the male, he discards

26:06

the axe or drops it. I'm assuming he's

26:08

not picking up a knife from inside the

26:10

house, but he's brought a knife to the

26:12

scene. So, he's bringing two

26:14

weapons. It's almost as

26:16

if he knew that the male,

26:18

Walter, was inside the house and

26:21

made a predetermined choice that he was

26:23

going to utilize the axe while Walter

26:25

was asleep to dispatch Walter.

26:27

But what he wants to do

26:29

with Molly, in addition to the sexual

26:31

assault, as part of his

26:33

fantasy, is the knife play on her

26:35

body. He's not using the axe on

26:38

her. He is purposefully choosing

26:40

to use the knife. Well,

26:42

this next one's tough. I thought Molly

26:44

was hard, but this next one was

26:46

very difficult for me. So, just another

26:48

warning to listeners, this is pretty graphic.

26:51

A few months later, May, so we are now

26:53

in late spring, 1885. Something

26:56

happens similar to this between

26:58

December 31st and May 6th,

27:00

but on May 6th, something

27:03

very similar plays out. So

27:06

with this story, I'm hoping you can

27:08

help me say, yes, these all seem

27:10

to be related because they have always

27:13

been packaged together as the work of

27:15

one killer, and two, who

27:17

this person might have been, because there

27:19

are some suspects. So, here's your second

27:21

case to see what the similarities are.

27:25

This is another black victim, a woman.

27:27

She was a cook. Her name was

27:29

Eliza Shelley. She was in her 30s. She

27:33

was the mom of three young boys, and

27:35

she worked for a family, the Johnson family.

27:37

And the patriarch of the family was a doctor.

27:41

She and the kids, these three young boys,

27:43

lived in a tiny back cabin on

27:45

the property of what is now Third

27:47

Street. So, these are in close proximity.

27:49

So, we went from Sixth Street down

27:51

to Third Street, downtown Austin. She

27:54

stays in the bedroom. She's found

27:56

dead on the bedroom floor wrapped

27:58

in bloody shit. See her bloody

28:01

seats as if she and the

28:03

betting had been dragged off the

28:05

bed together. And they think Paul

28:08

multiple weapons here. Okay, so here's

28:10

the graphic stuff for brains were

28:12

reportedly oozing out of her head

28:14

wound. She appeared to have an

28:17

axe wounds in her skull and

28:19

a deep hole drilled between her

28:21

eyes and above one of her

28:24

ears. As. Well as deep

28:26

slashes all over her body. There.

28:28

Is one witness one of the boys

28:30

who was under ten years old. He

28:33

said he wasn't sure whether the attacker

28:35

was a black man or a white

28:37

man, but he thought he was white.

28:39

but either way the intruder had covered

28:41

his face with this white rag. The.

28:43

Boy and Return said that the

28:46

man had woken him up. Demanded.

28:48

To know where the mother had kept all

28:51

of her money and then told the boy

28:53

to put his head under a pillow and

28:55

keep it there until he left. So I'm

28:57

presuming the mom was dead at this point.

28:59

So what do you think of that. You

29:01

know, I don't know if I would

29:03

presume as a mom is dead at

29:06

that point. The offender, possibly a pair

29:08

of is lacking familiarity inside the house

29:10

and first runs into this boy and

29:12

now is knowing that he's got his

29:14

face covered, is now interacting with the

29:16

boy. I'm trying to get direction as

29:18

to where the intended victim is. if

29:20

he's asking the boys, where's mom kisses,

29:23

where's money wears moms money for his

29:25

mom's my, but he's He's also he's

29:27

He's aware that there's an adult woman

29:29

inside this house and this is tiny.

29:31

Paul They said a tiny cabin so I

29:33

don't know how much room there actually is

29:35

to move in here. It's interesting

29:38

to me is also using an axe

29:40

in this case. We don't have an

29:42

adult male present like we did with

29:45

Walter have been Molly's carries so it

29:47

sounds like this is how he is

29:49

equipping himself. Or and the similarities between

29:51

these cases is enough. For. Me

29:54

to say yes, the sounds like it

29:56

is the same offender us but it

29:58

is important that he's also. Like

30:00

you've got a knife with them.

30:02

Feel that he flashes and again

30:04

this is something that I believe.

30:06

a score to his fantasy that

30:08

is Often times offenders like to

30:10

use a knife first is something

30:13

a little less impersonal. Days like

30:15

date utilize something that they can

30:17

nail penetrate into the women's body.

30:19

The holes being drilled me. I

30:21

don't know what to make of

30:23

that if that's a sign. A

30:25

Skepticals you know it's not like

30:27

they had a portable drill, battery

30:29

power drill. My it out. It's

30:32

like, well, how would this be done

30:34

You know you're sitting there with a

30:36

hand cranked drill, you know. So I

30:38

would tend to think that maybe this

30:40

was more likely a puncture wound was

30:43

something like may be a screwdriver, Something

30:45

similar that would indicate yes, you have

30:47

some sort of bet that is boring

30:49

through the bone. Well. They have very

30:52

little evidence to work was here. they

30:54

have a witness is very young who

30:56

can identify whether this person was black

30:58

or white. Of course we're talking about

31:01

not even candlelight. He striking and night

31:03

when people are in bed, there's no

31:05

lights anywhere and he's covering his face.

31:07

It sounds like they find one saying

31:10

that will become important later on. A

31:12

bear footprint in dirt near the cabin.

31:14

A footprint. I mean that. not shoe

31:16

print. So as we go forward he

31:18

does not wear shoes. It sounds. Like.

31:21

Did. The a boy was he able

31:23

to describe the closing of the offender

31:26

was wearing outside of the white mask.

31:28

It doesn't sell my at. The only thing he

31:30

was focused. On as at Scary White Mask and

31:32

the guy telling him now he's not hurting

31:35

the child who was a witness. So that's

31:37

another question. What does that mean? He has

31:39

a soft spot for kids or does that

31:41

mean he doesn't think that this. Kid's gonna

31:43

be able to be helpful to investigators

31:46

and all. It's so hard to exactly

31:48

say why doesn't harm the kid yet

31:50

out but but I would probably say

31:53

the the primary reason is that the

31:55

kid is not meet his victim type

31:57

yet so he's not going to do

32:00

that. Whether she has a saw spot

32:02

for kids who knows you know the

32:04

that the barefoot bread to there is

32:07

a practical aspect and that practical aspect

32:09

is is that you can walk much

32:11

quieter inside the house than if you

32:14

have a hard soul to odds know

32:16

I'm an So. this would be something

32:18

that you see cat burglars employ. Cap

32:21

Burgers are offenders at break into houses.

32:23

Wow, There are people inside typically asleep

32:25

and they are silent as he moved

32:28

to the house. They're like a cat

32:30

you know and they will do this

32:32

type of thing only be a half

32:35

socks on in order to be able

32:37

to walk quieter as a move to

32:39

the house. So right now there's the

32:41

not having any shoes on. My guess

32:44

initially is ceased doing that in order

32:46

to be able to move silently through

32:48

the house or as quietly as he

32:51

can. Let's assume that

32:53

he did this for the first

32:55

murder from Mali. It's in the

32:58

snow. Maybe he didn't that it's

33:00

in the snow in covered up?

33:02

Would you then have reconsidered where

33:05

he said about him being an

33:07

inexperienced killer? Would that have added

33:09

any sort of validity? This some

33:12

being somebody. Who's more experienced if

33:14

he did this on the first go

33:16

round? Know because these killers evolve over

33:18

time if he let's say, and the

33:20

first one with the reason I'm saying

33:23

that I believe you might be a

33:25

novice killer is because he separating Molly

33:27

from Walter and in my opinion the

33:30

only real reason to do that take

33:32

her outside into the Cold War now

33:34

he's exposed vs being in the privacy

33:36

of the house is because he's unsure

33:39

about whether or not Walter. good

33:41

reanimated become a threat to

33:43

him while he was spend

33:46

time with molly's however prior

33:48

to that homicide chances are

33:50

he's already gained comfort and

33:52

experience breaking into houses probably

33:55

with occupants inside and so

33:57

he has learned okay i

33:59

need to do this, this, and

34:01

this in order to be able to move

34:03

throughout the house without alerting the victims. And

34:05

part of that learning process may have been,

34:07

I need to ditch the boots or ditch

34:10

the shoes and go barefoot.

34:12

And so he is just employing

34:14

what he learned as

34:16

a cat burglar before

34:18

escalating to homicide. Okay. And

34:20

we actually don't know from the kid if

34:22

he ended up finding the money. We would

34:25

assume maybe he took it if he

34:27

found it. But we know from what

34:29

you're saying, likely the primary motivation is

34:31

sexual. I don't have any details on

34:33

whether Eliza was assaulted or not. It

34:36

sounds like she was partially clothed, but

34:38

does it matter at this point if

34:40

the first one was sexually motivated? Are

34:42

they all going to be after that?

34:44

Well, in all likelihood, you know, you

34:46

have female victims. We know with Molly,

34:49

there's no question that it's a sexually

34:51

motivated crime. We don't have enough descriptors

34:53

in terms of what happened to Eliza,

34:55

in terms of what disruption to her

34:57

clothing, what positioning of her body, any

34:59

types of specific injuries or sexually

35:02

related observations. I

35:04

do want to address the

35:06

searching, the house for financial

35:08

gain. And

35:10

this is often seen

35:12

with serial predators

35:15

is sometimes they are seeking

35:17

financial gain. They take advantage

35:19

of the opportunity, even though

35:22

the primary motive is

35:24

the sexual assault and or

35:26

the homicide. Or you have

35:28

predators that want

35:30

to display a

35:33

potential financial motive to

35:36

kind of in a way minimize

35:38

the fact that they really

35:40

are there for the sexual assault

35:42

and or homicide. In some ways,

35:45

it's their justification. I was really

35:47

just breaking into the house because

35:49

I needed food and money. And

35:52

she was there. And I just happened to

35:54

take advantage of it. They're trying to minimize

35:57

you know what their true primary motive is.

36:00

Well, after Eliza Shelley, the

36:02

police start looking sort of

36:04

in earnest for someone. There's

36:06

a lot of contradictory information out there.

36:09

People who I have spoken with have said

36:11

in their research that the police

36:13

could give a fig about this because it turned

36:16

out to be a litany of black women

36:18

until we get to the two white women at

36:20

the very end, which I believe.

36:23

I had a quote from someone who said that the police

36:25

mounted their horses and made it all the way to Shoal

36:27

Creek, which is not very far, and

36:30

stopped because it was primarily black

36:32

women and a few black men. But

36:35

other sources say they're kind of on the hunt for

36:38

someone. In Eliza's case, they start

36:40

looking at her inner circle. They

36:42

arrest one man who just doesn't

36:44

seem to have any kind of

36:46

connection. I think he was a narrative

36:48

well, 30-year-old, and then they let him

36:50

go. And then they talk

36:52

to a neighbor who says, well, Eliza

36:54

had a boyfriend and they argued about

36:56

money. They overheard someone asking

36:58

for money. And

37:01

they talked to a boyfriend, and

37:03

it turned into nothing. So there's

37:05

not enough evidence for anybody at

37:08

this point. In the city's

37:10

black community is on edge. I don't think

37:12

the white community really was, is the

37:14

impression I got. But it's the black community that's

37:17

concerned at this point because now you've got two

37:19

women who are dead. And yes, they're five months

37:21

or so apart. They

37:24

are brutalized in this way. This is

37:26

a warming people. Yeah,

37:28

and as it should, because it's obvious

37:30

to me, just with these two cases,

37:32

that this is a serial predator that

37:34

is at work. These are related cases

37:36

for sure. I don't need DNA in

37:38

order to draw that conclusion. Kind of

37:40

going back to Eliza, one of the

37:43

details that you mentioned is that even

37:45

though she wasn't taken out of the

37:47

house, she was removed from the bed

37:49

but found wrapped in sheets. Do

37:52

you have a description? Is she completely cocooned

37:54

in these sheets? Are the sheets just covering

37:56

her? Investigators are describing

37:59

it as... Covered. So

38:01

he attacked her in bed and

38:03

yanked her along with the sheets.

38:05

Off. The bed, like trying to get her

38:07

on the ground in the seat kind of came

38:10

with her is the impression I get of. I'm

38:12

not sure this was like addressing. I think it

38:14

was like a frenetic moment and then maybe. The

38:16

boy walks and before he's able to

38:18

sexual assault her, but she's dead pretty

38:20

quick. The. Are you a good

38:23

cause? If if the offenders taking

38:25

the time would say to cover

38:27

his victim was seats are wrapping

38:29

her and seats you know a

38:31

purposeful act that a significant behaviorally

38:33

and often times that indicates that

38:35

the offender either has some sort

38:37

of connection to the victim or

38:39

and as expressing remorse does of

38:42

want to see what he has

38:44

done to the victim or there's

38:46

a practical aspect sometimes offenders will

38:48

cover the bodies to delay discovery

38:50

It also it's a matter. Of

38:52

this is where you're crime scene photos

38:54

would be huge in terms of try

38:56

to me a really figure out okay

38:58

to deceased just come off with the

39:00

body ordered the offender actually purposely cover

39:02

her up and if the offender did

39:04

and yeah that would be something out

39:06

be king and on. That's not the

39:08

impression I get but that's really good

39:10

information. I do think that there's going

39:12

to be probably posing. Coming up here,

39:15

let's talk about the timeline a little

39:17

bit, because now I'm not confused, but

39:19

I'm interested in his bed. So we

39:21

go from December thirtieth two about five

39:23

months later at the beginning of May.

39:26

And that's the gap five month gap

39:28

between Molly Analyzer. Now we're to a

39:30

woman. Named I Ring Cross. This

39:33

is less than three weeks

39:35

after a wiser is ramping

39:37

up. Or. What's Happening. It's

39:40

a very similar. Attack you are.

39:42

We have to few data

39:44

points to determine if there

39:46

is a temporal pattern to

39:48

this offender, but that typically

39:50

isn't something. That. is consistent

39:53

in a series you know i saw it

39:55

a little bit and golden state killer that

39:57

wants to as will start a killer g

39:59

initial went biannual. He would kill twice a

40:01

year. And it was almost

40:04

like he experienced, you know, it was almost like

40:06

the sexual gratification from these

40:08

homicides and then went into this

40:10

refractory period for about six months

40:12

and then offended again. But oftentimes,

40:15

when the offender offends, commits the

40:17

crime, is often driven by when

40:19

the offender has the opportunity in

40:21

their personal life to commit the

40:24

crime. And so sometimes

40:26

we'll see a long period in between

40:28

attacks because now the offender is

40:30

gainfully employed, you know, can't

40:32

get out and do the prowling or whatever

40:35

else is needed to commit the crime. Like

40:37

in one instance, I can think of like

40:39

with Green River Killer Gary Ridgway, when he

40:41

stopped offending, when he was

40:43

being interviewed, he says, well, I

40:45

got married. You know, these offenders

40:47

have real things that happen in

40:49

their personal lives that can impact

40:51

their ability to offend. Now,

40:54

there's also behavioral things, you know,

40:56

in terms of, okay, in this

40:58

instance, we have just a three-week

41:00

gap between Eliza's case

41:02

and Irene's case. Is this a

41:04

time in this offender's life in

41:06

which there's stressors that is now

41:09

driving him to want to go

41:11

out and offend in a

41:13

quicker period than what he had done between

41:15

Molly and Eliza's case? Who knows at this

41:17

point, there's so many variables. Let me tell

41:19

you about what happens next. So this is

41:21

May 22nd. So we're jumping from May

41:24

6 to May 22nd. This

41:26

happens at 302 East

41:28

Linden Street, anyone who's local, there is

41:31

a Linden Street in Austin, but this

41:33

is a different one. This is now

41:35

called 17th Street. So we've gone from

41:37

6th Street to 3rd Street to 17th

41:40

Street. So we're all downtown at this

41:42

point. This is a woman named Irene

41:44

Cross. She was a

41:46

black domestic worker, and

41:49

she was heard screaming in

41:51

the night on the lawn of

41:53

her employer, who was a woman named Sophia

41:55

Whitman. And just like the previous victims, Irene

41:57

lived on the property of the property of the property of the

41:59

property. property in a small cabin in

42:02

the back. By

42:04

the time the helper arrived, so

42:06

she was conscious and screaming, he

42:08

was gone. She is clinging to life, but

42:11

the prognosis is not good and they're trying

42:13

to get information from her and nothing. Okay,

42:15

so let me tell you the wounds. A

42:18

six-inch gash above her right

42:20

eye, multiple reports are that

42:22

he tried to scalp her,

42:25

so part of her head

42:27

is open. Her right arm

42:30

had been so severely and

42:32

deeply cut that it was cut

42:34

almost in two pieces. And she survives this

42:36

for a little while and then dies. I

42:39

mean, just brutal. If the woman

42:42

is found naked and they're saying this looks

42:44

like certainly like a sexual assault, I'll tell

42:46

you, but Eliza was a no and

42:49

Irene is a no, meaning they're

42:51

closed. So this

42:54

right arm wound, did

42:57

the wound penetrate through her

42:59

bone or is are

43:02

they just describing a very

43:04

large incisive wound? They

43:06

just say so deeply severed it

43:08

was nearly cut in half. Okay.

43:11

And she's screaming through this. Well,

43:14

and I think that that is

43:16

a huge factor. You know, she's making

43:18

noise. The offender is aware she's making

43:21

noise and possibly alerting other people in

43:23

the surrounding area. So now the time

43:25

that the offender has with Irene is

43:28

sped up in his mind and that

43:30

may be why we don't see more

43:32

overt signs of sexual assault, like her

43:35

clothing being disrupted or removed from her

43:37

body. This wound to her arm, unless

43:39

he's again armed with an axe, you

43:41

know, and swings the axe and

43:44

in an offensive posture, you know,

43:46

the axe actually goes through bone,

43:48

you know, and

43:50

that's a possibility. You know, I've got a case

43:52

in which a woman is killed With

43:55

a machete and her forearm is literally just

43:57

hanging on by a piece of skin. It

44:00

sounds like that's likely a defensive

44:02

wound, whether be done by an

44:04

axe or it's done by a

44:06

knife and is just the. It

44:08

also is significant incisive injury probably

44:10

two or form as he's trying

44:12

to ward off the nice a

44:15

napkin look like it's severing the

44:17

arm, but it doesn't necessarily go

44:19

through the bone with the attempt

44:21

at scalping is interesting. I'm aware

44:23

of one instance in one case

44:25

in which they california d O

44:27

J profiler talks about an offender

44:29

who. Had read about another offender

44:31

scalping his victims and wanted to

44:34

try it. I personally don't have

44:36

a case in which somebody was

44:38

purposely scalped, but also you're dealing

44:40

with Texas back in the late

44:43

eighteen eighties. Mid eighteen eighties scalping

44:45

would. I imagine would be

44:47

something that people were much more

44:49

aware of just because of the

44:52

indigenous aspects you know. Is this

44:54

an attempt at staging? You know

44:56

where Now the offender is trying

44:59

to make authorities believe that you

45:01

have an indigenous person that is

45:03

committing the crime. Or is this

45:06

part of a way to denigrate

45:08

the female? Maybe she has beautiful,

45:10

had a hair, and now he's

45:13

wanting to collect souvenirs or trying

45:15

to. Go after something that

45:17

he takes pride in. The house

45:19

are so many different potential behavioral

45:21

aspects to what's going on with

45:23

this with the scalping, but I

45:25

do believe that in all likelihood

45:28

with the limited amount of injuries

45:30

to Irene and the fact that

45:32

she's outside screaming that he probably

45:34

got scared off in this instance.

45:37

And there's a witness. Another young

45:39

witness. Now this one's twelve. and

45:41

I think my. Twelve year old kids

45:44

would have been able them to give some pretty

45:46

good details. they would have been traumatized

45:48

but this is probably a more reliable

45:50

witness than that kid who was under

45:52

ten in the last and since this

45:54

is a twelve year old nephew of

45:56

irene see says that he saw the

45:59

intruder it was big chunky, he

46:01

says, big chunky black man.

46:03

He was barefooted and his

46:05

pants were rolled up. He also

46:07

said the man had a pocket knife,

46:09

wore a brown hat, and

46:12

told him to shut up, essentially. What do you

46:14

think about this, a pocket knife? He must have

46:16

had something bigger than that. You

46:18

know, in terms of evaluating the pocket knife,

46:20

it would go towards this wound

46:22

on her arm. You know,

46:24

would this pocket knife have been able to create

46:26

that wound? I'm skeptical

46:29

that the people who are describing this wound

46:31

really know what they're looking at. So maybe

46:34

he is just armed with a pocket knife. Most

46:36

certainly a pocket knife can be used to attempt

46:38

to scalp somebody. However,

46:40

the consistency, pants rolled up.

46:42

Now that is consistent with

46:44

the bare footprint that was

46:46

found in Eliza's case. So

46:49

this appears to be, you

46:51

know, really strongly tying Irene's

46:53

case to the previous two.

46:55

Yeah, and I will tell

46:58

you the black community is terrified at

47:00

this point because we go into the

47:02

summer, which is always Hardin Hill in

47:05

Texas, we go into the summer with

47:07

three women dead and everyone is alarmed

47:09

at this point. Nothing happens over the

47:11

summer. The media jokes it's because it

47:14

was too hot, which I mean,

47:16

who knows? August 30th rolls around

47:19

1885. And

47:21

now we have our next victim, two

47:23

victims. This is a little complicated.

47:25

So let me unravel this a little bit. It

47:27

involves a 50 year old woman,

47:29

black domestic worker named Rebecca Ramey.

47:31

She was sleeping in the kitchen

47:34

with her 11 year old daughter

47:36

because she was so scared of

47:38

this, what they presumed to be

47:40

a multiple murderer is what they

47:42

would have called it in the

47:45

1800s. She was so scared of

47:47

this multiple murderer that she and her daughter

47:50

wanted to be safe. And

47:52

she and Mary were sleeping in the kitchen of this

47:54

house where they were. So this is

47:57

a little different. And it's different

47:59

because this young girl, this

48:01

11-year-old girl Mary and her mom

48:03

Rebecca are sleeping in

48:05

the kitchen of their employer. They are

48:07

not in a back cabin. They are

48:09

in the family's kitchen

48:12

to stay safe. They

48:14

are in the home of a family called

48:16

the Weed family. They made a lot of

48:18

money in downtown stables, at least everything from

48:20

horses to carriages, so they had a lot

48:22

of money. They are on what is what

48:25

was then 300 East Cedar Street.

48:27

Now it's 4th Street, so we've gone,

48:30

boy can I remember, 6th Street to

48:32

3rd Street to 17th Street, back

48:34

to 4th Street, and

48:36

they are very very

48:38

close to Eliza's house.

48:41

Very close. So the

48:43

Weed house is obviously

48:46

not very secure. They are in

48:48

the kitchen. The man comes in,

48:50

hits Rebecca over the head

48:53

with what my friend Skip Hollinsworth

48:55

describes as a club about a

48:57

foot long containing several

48:59

ounces of lead packed in

49:01

sand that are all wrapped

49:03

in buckskin. That's called

49:05

sandbagging, and the person

49:07

used this and knocked out Rebecca

49:10

Cold. I'm assuming they found this. That's

49:12

how they know that. Rebecca is completely

49:14

knocked out. So the

49:16

sandbagging sounds heavy, but it

49:18

sounds effective if you want

49:20

to disable someone who's a potential

49:23

victim. Yeah, you know, and

49:25

it's it's somewhat of a, sounds like

49:27

somewhat of a padded type of weapon,

49:29

which is an interesting choice. It's

49:32

not a hammer. It's

49:34

not a bat. You

49:36

know, something that an offender would use

49:39

to bludgeon somebody to death. So

49:42

it sounds like this

49:44

was purposefully chosen to

49:46

incapacitate versus kill. So now

49:48

I'm gonna want to know from you when you hear this next,

49:51

if this is

49:53

a situation where he is specifically

49:55

casing things out for specific

49:57

victims because he does not have a weapon.

50:00

take the 50-year-old Rebecca Ramey,

50:02

he takes her daughter, Mary.

50:04

So what happens is he

50:07

takes Mary, he drags her

50:09

to the weeds the family's

50:11

shed in the back,

50:13

and he, I mean, just

50:15

brutalizes her. And I

50:18

can tell you what the injuries are

50:20

in a minute, but can you respond

50:22

to that, that he didn't seem like

50:24

he had designs on Rebecca, the older

50:26

woman, that he was really focused on

50:28

the young girl? No, exactly.

50:30

If you could, could you tell

50:32

me the ages of Molly, Eliza,

50:35

and Irene? Yeah, well, you know how

50:37

this goes. People who are disenfranchised in the 1800s,

50:39

I'll give you the best estimate. So Molly, between

50:41

23 and 25, Eliza, early 30s, 31-30

50:43

is what they're saying. Irene, Skip thinks

50:45

she's 33,

50:52

some people say 23, but all, you

50:54

know, 20s and 30s. And then Rebecca

50:56

Ramey is 50, and her

50:59

daughter is 11. Yeah, so in

51:01

this offender's mind, I

51:03

would say that Rebecca is

51:05

not fitting within the characteristics,

51:08

which is her age range. We don't

51:10

know about physical appearance requirements that this

51:12

offender has, but what

51:14

we do know is that Rebecca is

51:17

significantly older than the three prior victims.

51:19

Now, Mary is significantly younger,

51:23

yet evaluating that

51:25

can be problematic. You

51:28

know, in this day and age, we know

51:30

that we have younger girls

51:32

that hit puberty earlier

51:35

than in past generations. You

51:38

know, so an offender from

51:40

afar may choose a

51:43

victim based on her physical appearance,

51:45

but has no clue what her

51:47

actual age is. She just meets

51:49

a certain physical characteristic or requirement

51:52

that the offender needs to satisfy

51:54

a fantasy. This can often be

51:56

confused, you know, with like with

51:59

an 11. Oh, this

52:01

must be a pedophile not

52:03

necessarily, you know depends on

52:05

did the disoffender purposely choose

52:07

Mary because she was so

52:10

young maybe looked prepubescent

52:12

or did

52:14

he see her from afar or see

52:16

her in the moment in the kitchen

52:19

and See a 11

52:21

year old girl that maybe looked more

52:23

physically mature Than other 11 year

52:25

old girls at that time and decided she

52:28

met his niece We don't know what's going

52:30

on inside the offenders mind But

52:32

I am fairly confident that in

52:35

all likelihood Rebecca did not meet

52:37

this offenders needs as a victim

52:40

Likely because of her age. Well

52:42

the evidence is is that Mary the 11

52:44

year old had been sexually assaulted The

52:47

injuries are pretty awful and the sexual

52:49

assault, you know Again, the reason they

52:51

say they believe it happened is because

52:54

she was virtually naked and

52:56

her organs were exposed When

52:58

they find her the next morning, she

53:00

is still alive and Her

53:04

mom survives this Rebecca

53:07

Ramey. So this is

53:09

the injury. I mean They

53:11

described her as dazed Mary

53:14

She had a whole now. This is where

53:16

the vernacular comes into play drilled. We talked

53:19

about this whole drill She had a whole

53:21

drilled through her left ear but

53:25

The next note is they think it

53:27

was made by an iron rod or

53:30

a pen So it's a

53:32

puncture right penetrated her brain her

53:34

skull was also fractured They

53:36

found her she was alive but

53:38

not for very long when she ended up

53:40

dying I think it's informative,

53:42

you know, they they use the term

53:44

whole drilled left ear, but then

53:46

they think it's an iron rod So

53:49

this tells me this was

53:51

a tool or weapon that produced a

53:53

puncture wound that could penetrate the skull

53:56

And Then that goes back to Eliza, you

53:59

know, we're working. We had a debate

54:01

as to whether a drill was

54:03

used or was puncture wound. In

54:05

all likelihood, what happened to Eliza

54:07

was also something akin to an

54:09

iron rod or pin that punctured

54:11

allies skull vs. something that was

54:14

drilled. Why would you do that? Is.

54:16

Is experimentation. She was alive when

54:18

he did this. Marry has no

54:20

incisive injuries, so it's not like he's

54:23

using a knife on her is he

54:25

is only using this this puncturing weapon.

54:27

I do know that these offenders do

54:29

experiment and they will experiment in in

54:31

many different ways, including the type of

54:33

weapon they use from case to case

54:35

to case and that may be what's

54:37

going on here. Does he bring this

54:40

weapon with them or does he just

54:42

you know, find something on the property

54:44

that he uses? We don't know at

54:46

this point, but he's not using a

54:48

nice and so that. To me as

54:50

the most significant thing, I was

54:52

kind of postulating that this offender

54:55

really wants to use a knife

54:57

on his victims were Rebecca and

54:59

Mary more opportunistic. He. And

55:01

also, he wasn't fully equipped with

55:03

his kill. Kit if you

55:05

will. the acts that knife or Chino

55:07

the puncturing weapon the only has a

55:09

weapon in his the something that he

55:11

had used previously of same type of

55:14

weapon or just something that he found

55:16

laying on the ground on the property.

55:18

Just don't know right now. And

55:20

ten, let me give you

55:22

a little bit more information.

55:24

Another bear footprints in the

55:26

dirt. This one is unusual

55:28

shape they say. Now you

55:30

tell me what you think

55:32

about this. It appears that

55:34

whomever made this footprint. Was.

55:37

Missing a little toe, can

55:40

you really tell that from dirt

55:42

i would need to see the

55:44

print you know like would say

55:47

you have a foot impression and

55:49

it's a good foot impression without

55:51

distortion and so when i say

55:53

an impression let's say this was

55:56

a shallow muddy area and you

55:58

have a clean impress which

56:01

I would have confidence replicates the

56:03

foot. That would give me greater

56:05

confidence that if there was a

56:07

missing toe present that the offender

56:09

was lacking a toe. If it

56:11

looked like that that little toe

56:13

should have also been part of

56:15

the impression the way that that

56:17

went into the mud. If

56:20

this is just a footprint

56:22

in dirt, I

56:26

think my confidence is less

56:28

because you can step

56:30

in certain ways and that's not going

56:32

to fully replicate all the features of

56:34

the foot. Okay, well

56:37

the police now understand why the

56:39

black community in Austin is alarmed

56:41

and I'm sure the white community

56:43

does not want killers roaming around

56:45

their house which is what happened

56:47

in this last instance. So

56:50

they go searching, they arrest several

56:52

people including one man that they

56:54

really felt like was trying to

56:56

evade them by you know putting

56:58

on a chemical on his leg so

57:01

the bloodhounds wouldn't find him. None of

57:03

it sticks. They do not have enough

57:05

evidence in order to

57:07

keep somebody longer than just a few

57:09

days. So as we end this

57:11

episode we are left with four

57:14

very violent murders, potentially all

57:17

sexual assaults. We don't know

57:19

for sure. One

57:21

mother who has lost her daughter

57:24

and I'm assuming has probably permanent

57:26

brain damage from being whacked on

57:28

the head with that sandbagging thing

57:31

and zero suspects and a

57:33

lot more ahead Paul. So I'm just gonna have

57:35

to stop there. We have a lot to talk

57:37

about next week. Oh I'm fully engaged

57:39

on this case. This is my wheelhouse

57:41

so I'm looking forward to getting more

57:44

details. Great. See you soon. Sounds

57:46

good. Our

58:00

producer is Alexis Amorosi. Research

58:02

by Maren McClashan, Ali Elkin,

58:04

and Kate Winkler-Dawson. Our mixing

58:07

engineer is Ben Taladei. Our

58:09

theme song is by Tom Breifogel.

58:11

Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

58:14

Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia

58:16

Hardstark, and Danielle Kramer. You

58:18

can follow Buried Bones on Instagram

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and Facebook at Buried Bones Pod.

58:23

Kate's most recent book, All That is Wicked, A

58:25

Gilded Age Story of Murder and the Race to

58:27

Decode the Criminal Mind, is available now. And Paul's

58:30

best-selling memoir, Unmasked, My Life

58:32

Solving America's Cold Cases, is

58:34

also available now.