0:01

This is exactly right. Hi.

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I'm. Air Welsh and I'm Erin of

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Uptake And where the house of This

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podcast will kill you on exactly right.

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We're back with our seven season which

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so so much more. New episodes drop

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kill you wherever you get your podcasts.

0:43

I'm Kate Winkler Dawson of a

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journalist who spent the last twenty

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five years writing about true crime.

0:49

And I'm Paul Holes retired cold

0:51

case investigator whose work some of

0:53

America's most complicated case and solve

0:55

them. Each week I present Paul

0:57

with one of history's most compelling,

0:59

true. Crimes And I were you

1:01

using modern forensic techniques to bring

1:03

new insights to old mysteries. Together,

1:06

using our individual expertise, we're

1:08

examining historical true crime cases

1:11

through a twenty first century

1:13

lens. Some are solved and

1:15

summer cold Very cold. This

1:18

is buried bones. A

1:41

carried are you. I'm doing well. How about

1:43

you? Are you my hanging in there? Good.

1:45

I have a big decision. Maybe you

1:47

can help me make it. I've a

1:49

big decision to make a broker. I

1:52

am considering getting contacts and I've never,

1:54

ever had contacts before. and I have

1:56

friends who fall asleep accidently with their

1:58

contacts on and it's. The horror

2:00

scene and they're crying and it's

2:02

awful and I'm scared. I.

2:05

Know that many men have a certain age need

2:07

to get glasses and you don't have them. And

2:09

then I just found that you have contacts. with

2:11

which for some his son of

2:14

a certain age of thirty one

2:16

of my seat in the grave

2:18

know that Seattle or yeah you'd

2:21

always I had perfect version up

2:23

and told relieve maybe my early

2:25

forties to mid forties and and

2:27

ultimately had to wear glasses and

2:30

then after I retired and quite

2:32

frankly having to do some of

2:34

the tv work that I did

2:36

wearing glasses became problematic cel because

2:39

editors are constantly having to. Seeing

2:41

different edits up and you'd I'm constantly

2:43

taking my glasses off and on. And

2:45

I did a show. it was Dna,

2:48

a murderer. I did an episode with

2:50

Lonnie Coombs who also wears glasses. but

2:52

Mia, we would have to put glasses

2:54

on to look at this laptop screen

2:57

that was sitting in front of us

2:59

for the the segment. And then when

3:01

we talk to each other, we're constantly

3:04

taking our glasses off of the we're

3:06

constantly putting glasses on and off and

3:08

driving. The editors? not yeah. And then

3:10

I recognized. I needed to man

3:13

up and get contacts and I

3:15

have always been scared to touch

3:17

my eyes. That is the one

3:19

thing I can't handle this. The same

3:21

rises in then a phobia. I don't

3:23

know if it's a phobia or

3:25

and I know I is something

3:28

that I just did not want

3:30

to do. You don't and I

3:32

have seen the most horrific things

3:35

but like when I'm in the

3:37

morgue, the one thing I will

3:39

not watches when the pathologist needs

3:41

to interact with the deceased eyes

3:44

while I don't like that so

3:46

getting contacts was scary. It took

3:48

me of while to learn how

3:51

to take the contacts out. Putting

3:53

them is in was pretty easy but

3:55

taken them out was hard and fact

3:57

I to go in to my optometrist

3:59

one more in get them out because

4:01

I had such slip figure it out

4:03

oh so scared so that I'd just

4:05

go so hard that my eyeball be

4:07

rolling around in the sink when i

4:09

was done. But

4:11

a densely it becomes routine. I don't

4:14

think there's anything you need to be

4:16

scared of. I have slept through the

4:18

night with my contacts and they're just

4:20

saw contacts. just these Dailies class and

4:22

your eyes do get scratchy but I

4:25

also find that the current a dry

4:27

out than that makes it easier in

4:29

the morning to be able to pull

4:31

him out. So I really haven't had

4:33

any nightmare scenario at once a contact

4:36

and have floated up above that the

4:38

eyelid and had a fish it out.

4:40

Paul has to start of this all

4:42

nightmare. But

4:47

for the convenience yards, I will say it.

4:50

It is nice to be able to go

4:52

through the day without vietnam, carry my glasses

4:54

around, putting them on of our one look

4:57

at my phone or piano, just read something

4:59

on the computer. Screen so the conveniences

5:01

air. The weird thing with my prescription

5:03

is I've got was called Mano vision

5:06

so my my left eye has a

5:08

prescription to allow me to have to

5:10

look at the computer screen and see

5:12

it clearly and my right eye is

5:15

for distance and so both eyes when

5:17

you're looking through both eyes at the

5:19

same time it's a little weird and

5:22

the brain kind of a of i

5:24

look like if i want to look

5:26

at the mountains you know it's my

5:28

right eye that past focus. And

5:31

when I'm having to look at you on the

5:33

computer screen right now, my left I'd whereas my

5:35

right eye, you're just fuzzy. Well. I

5:37

have to wear my old glasses when I look at.

5:39

You on my computer screen because my new. Glasses

5:41

that are progress as you're just at the

5:43

worst angle. like you're too close for me

5:46

to be on my close ups and. Too.

5:48

Far away as it's it's it's really

5:50

confusing. So I am considering. I mean, I'm on.

5:52

A computer all the time. I do a lot of sort

5:54

of my back and forth television type stuff. And

5:56

the glare of my glasses bothers me and so

5:59

I am thinking about it by I might have

6:01

a little bit of that fear I wrote a

6:03

poem getting like an eyelash out of my kids

6:05

I, but I do have a hard time thinking

6:07

that contacts are going to be okay, but I'm

6:10

not sure you've helped. But it's

6:12

more information I guess you in your

6:14

dried out on to act and ago

6:16

or so I could do is provide

6:19

data and you have to make the

6:21

decision yourself. Lack

6:23

of sympathy is. Is

6:25

apparently here. well as in a while. I guess

6:28

you'll be one of the first to know because.

6:30

All this and I will be wearing my

6:32

glasses and new We like Whoop and by

6:34

know I'm excited! Big changes. A had

6:36

big changes That's about as dramatic as

6:38

my life gets. Contacts? No Contacts. From

6:40

looking forward to seeing you Glass was yes

6:42

well as you know. Well I

6:44

want to get into the story because

6:46

it is, I think interesting when people

6:48

are trying to cover up a crime

6:50

and I think I told you this.

6:53

You know. I interviewed a forensic chemist

6:55

and we talked about fire and how

6:57

people think some magic thing happens when

6:59

you pour gasoline on some one and

7:01

light it in that it's gonna completely.

7:03

You know, solve all their problems in

7:05

the body's gonna dissolve and and that's

7:07

it. And it's not that easy to

7:09

cover up a crime. Not as easy

7:11

as you would think in This is

7:13

Up I think. An interesting sort of

7:15

way and are deserving story at the

7:17

same time. So you'll have to tell

7:19

me what you think about all this,

7:22

You know it's a story set in

7:24

the eighteen Hundreds in late Eighteen hundreds

7:26

in Upstate New York. So. Let's.

7:28

At the same. So.

7:30

Trigger warning here: this is involving

7:33

the sexual assault and the murder

7:35

of a child a fourteen year

7:37

old girl. This is in Plainfield,

7:39

New York and this is about

7:41

ten years after the end of

7:43

the Civil War late eighteen Hundreds.

7:45

So eighteen, seventy eight and playing

7:47

field is right in the middle

7:50

of the states and we are

7:52

in a farm setting. And straight

7:54

away I'm going to ask you

7:56

about farm settings because in our

7:58

experience form settings. me. It

8:00

easy, seemingly pretty easy to get away.

8:02

With stuff because in the eighteen

8:04

hundreds farm setting caesar people who

8:06

live miles away it's very isolated.

8:09

There are weapons everywhere. Often time

8:11

women are left alone because the

8:13

manga loss and go into the

8:15

fields and this makes I think

8:17

people pretty vulnerable. And then the

8:19

flip is well you would think

8:21

they're safer. they're not in a

8:23

big city, bad things are happening.

8:25

I feel like for us a

8:27

farm setting sometimes is challenging. What

8:29

do you think? Road when you

8:31

think about. This is

8:33

a limited witness pool the

8:36

low density population would allow

8:38

and asunder to go and

8:40

commit a crime whether be

8:42

outside or inside. add your

8:44

visual witnesses, your audio witnesses

8:46

the at all. Because of

8:48

the distances between the farms,

8:50

it's almost by happenstance that

8:52

somebody that a witness might

8:54

be president either see or

8:56

hear the crime being committed.

8:58

If the offender is planning

9:00

the crime appropriately. Are

9:03

so that does create challenges. And

9:05

when we start talking about this

9:07

era, you know it's not like

9:10

if somebody discovers that a crime

9:12

has been committed, that law enforcement

9:14

can be notified right away. So

9:17

the offender has so much time

9:19

and geography in order to be

9:21

able to escape or notice and

9:24

separate himself from that location. And

9:26

on top of that, the law enforcement

9:29

that is there. Any a lady

9:31

team hundreds in a smaller quiet area

9:33

rural up there are going to be

9:35

experience most of the time and investigating

9:37

these big cases and you know it

9:39

could them forever to bring in somebody

9:41

who's. More experience from a bigger city. Which

9:43

often what happened so they're at a big

9:45

disadvantage. And on top of that, remember the

9:48

whole bell ringing? That was the emergency as

9:50

they would ring almost like a dinner bell

9:52

has run and the neighbors would come running

9:54

and the neighbors are picking up axes and

9:56

trampling over footprints in super ends. And so

9:59

there's so much. The. For

10:01

you're right, the person to disappear into the

10:03

woods. I feel like we are already at

10:05

a disadvantage every single time we talk about.

10:08

A murder in the eighteen hundreds in a farm

10:11

settings. The. Already. It makes me nervous know

10:13

for sure he had oh but we have to work

10:15

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There are three men who are involved

13:29

here. There are two farmhands. one is

13:31

a twenty year old in a Myron

13:34

be all, One is a thirty two

13:36

year old named Daniel Bowen and they're

13:38

both me, you know, farmhands, laborers on

13:40

the farm, and the owner of the

13:43

farm, a man named William Richards. He's

13:45

married and he has a daughter. Were

13:47

going to focus right now on Mirin

13:50

because he is one of the people

13:52

who makes a pretty bad discovery here.

13:54

So Myron, as a twenty year old,

13:56

a. Little bit of background on him. He was

13:58

born on a farm and. He also

14:00

local boy. And if you're born

14:02

on a farm, it's not predictive of you know

14:05

whether you're gonna be a big burly guy or

14:07

not. I guess just your stature is your stature

14:09

and you do the best you can on a

14:11

farm. And and that's what is lot. Was in

14:13

life, you know it. and I imagine

14:15

in a with the type of hard

14:18

labor that Myron is doing regardless of

14:20

his stature, he oh, he's probably developed

14:22

a fair amount of just functional strikes

14:25

or that he could be somebody is

14:27

my size, which is kind of like

14:29

the average male size your the United

14:31

States. Or he could be have a

14:34

much larger guy or even a much

14:36

smaller guys, but he likely has pretty

14:38

decent functional strikes. He may not look

14:41

very strong, is not like. You

14:43

know he's consuming protein shakes

14:45

and Neil developing a yellow

14:47

lot of this muscle hypertrophy

14:49

from from doing the the

14:51

heavy lifting on the farm,

14:53

but I guarantee that he's

14:55

probably fairly physically capable. You.

14:57

Know when I was twelve or thirteen and

15:00

I was on my dad's farm which I

15:02

talk about. Sometimes he has me doing all

15:04

kinds of manual labor. He would bring over

15:06

bales of hay on a tractor and I

15:09

would grab them. You know what? they're twine

15:11

with the gloves on and problem up onto

15:13

a pile and I would climb on the

15:16

top of the pile and he would throw

15:18

up in Allah Hay Bale and I would

15:20

grab it. And I was young. I was

15:22

twelve or thirteen and I was perfectly capable

15:25

of doing nuts. So I think growing up

15:27

on a ranch, That my dad taught

15:29

me how to cut wood and you

15:31

know, I use and acts from a

15:34

very young age and I painted. I

15:36

would just say miles of senses. Even

15:38

though I'm sure I didn't look particularly

15:40

burley. I definitely had functional strength. So

15:42

when we described Mirin as a boy

15:45

or a useful looking, I definitely don't

15:47

want to discount the fact that this

15:49

is somebody who has been working now

15:51

for two seasons. two. Years on

15:53

Mr. Richards Farm. So

15:56

he has. Had a great reputation.

15:58

He was a hard worker. He could

16:00

tackle all sorts of tasks. Very smart

16:02

and right now this is interesting. These

16:05

are form hands who are hoeing hops

16:07

and what do you know about thoughts

16:09

Because the only thing I can think

16:11

about with hops is of course beer.

16:13

Would he have there any other things

16:15

that you know about hops you have.

16:17

A quizzical with. Their

16:20

an anti inflammatory. I know that my

16:23

prescribe looked into how years made an

16:25

So. I remember reading about Hop Said

16:27

so that really is my only. I

16:30

don't even wanna say that as a

16:32

knowledge base of just more aware that

16:34

power of how hops are or use

16:37

of course we drink beer or got

16:39

a hobby tastes book From what I

16:41

remember as at the so very fast

16:43

growing plant that grows up like lines

16:46

and then it's in these wires. You

16:48

know that are than is like a trellis

16:50

system and now you've got the you know

16:52

the the actual said the flowers. I think

16:55

it's a flower that has collected so in

16:57

terms of holding up the hops as it

16:59

almost sounds like this is the ground preparation

17:01

you know to grow the hops or you

17:03

know at the end of the season we're

17:06

now they're having to take down the plants

17:08

and and then get the ground ready to

17:10

replant for the next season. Well, and

17:12

what I thought was interesting as I

17:15

assumed beer. and I'm sure it was

17:17

beer, but at the same time I

17:19

didn't know that it was used medicinally

17:22

by a lot of different cultures. The

17:24

Native Americans had used it for a

17:26

whole host of reasons: sleep, water problems,

17:29

anxiety, fever like breast and womb problems,

17:31

and it sounded almost like a sedative,

17:33

which. I thought was interesting in a

17:35

murder story. That their these young

17:38

guys out there hoeing hops on this

17:40

man's farm and we know that a

17:42

murderer is coming. We. Just don't know

17:45

what. Okay, we're kind of curious to

17:47

see where this goes. The Up so

17:49

hops their ego and. One. Of those things

17:51

I never think about. of course, hops need to

17:53

be hodes set. Up

17:55

a sign that says to reiterate is

17:57

a Tucson Guys out there So. Myron

18:00

and Daniel who is his coworker are

18:02

winding down. So the day and they

18:05

notice and this is in June. Just

18:07

remind everybody this is June twenty fifth

18:09

of eighteen, Seventy eight. So I'm sure

18:11

a warm day and the two of

18:13

them are winding down and they notice

18:16

that there is a bowl. Running.

18:18

Amok on the property, which would

18:20

be alarming as someone. Who grew

18:22

up around bulls? And currently has

18:24

bulls on properties. It's it's a little

18:27

frightening. I'm probably somebody is going to

18:29

say. Don't be frightened by bulls, but it's

18:31

hard not to be. Have you encountered a

18:33

boy I know about the bear bird or

18:35

know about a ball older sister I didn't

18:37

know yet. Balls on your back. On

18:39

that well not in Austin. on the the

18:41

farm on the family farm we have kills

18:43

and bulls and cute little story. My kids

18:46

are in love with this a donkey you

18:48

know donkeys and to have can being in

18:50

the animals and her companion animal is a

18:52

goat. Co worker who is a little creepy. I

18:54

have to be honest. I mean the goat stares at

18:56

me in a way that the ball stares at me.

18:58

But the donkey stares at me and

19:01

lot with love. So that's why I'm

19:03

drawn to the Donkey. It's a complicated

19:05

is ecosystem. Set That's awesome! Are

19:09

worthy goal Sources: Eggs are throwing bales

19:11

of hay. I was I now. I

19:13

am a complicated woman. I will say.

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There's a ball running amok. This would have

20:45

been frightening for these two guys. They told

20:47

each other kind of within trying to stay

20:49

back and make sure they're not gonna get.

20:51

Hearts that their bowl must have

20:53

escaped from one of the nearby

20:55

Barnes on the property and Mirin

20:58

runs and immediately tries to wrangle

21:00

the ball. And in the meantime

21:02

Daniel, the other farmhand russia's toward

21:05

the Bourne. He throws open the

21:07

doors to the barn to figure

21:09

out where the ball came from

21:11

an inside the pen. He

21:14

finds something that he says is absolutely

21:16

terrifying. It's the dead body of the

21:18

owners of the farm. the Richards fourteen

21:20

year old daughter. her name is Catherine.

21:23

Marry Richards. She is dead Sea appears

21:25

to have been mauled in she is

21:27

in the bulls pen and both of

21:29

these young men seemed very alarmed by

21:31

this. So what are your first impressions?

21:34

I know you want all kinds of

21:36

details and I have them, but you

21:38

know that kind of a scene Seems

21:40

odd. First blush you would say she

21:43

got end of. The bowls pen and

21:45

he ran amuck and then you know

21:47

somehow got out and this girl is

21:49

dead. That would not be. I feel

21:51

like out of the realm of possibility.

21:53

On a farm know he and own are

21:55

things that that's obviously something that would have

21:57

to be looked into in terms of. The

22:00

her injuries, you know that there

22:02

would be some distinctive injuries I

22:05

would indicate trampling by the ball,

22:07

possibly being impaled by the bulls

22:09

horns and evaluating is or anything

22:12

about the injuries to indicate that

22:14

they were fresh or the post

22:17

mortem aspects. Yeah, this is worth.

22:19

I know we're going to be

22:21

talking about a a homicide and

22:24

so is this part of stage

22:26

a crime scene where you put

22:29

a dead body into. The

22:31

pan with a ball and the

22:33

now you agitate ball. So it's

22:35

now stomping around inside the pan

22:37

and order to put some false

22:39

injuries on the body before the

22:41

boy is allowed out. So I

22:43

am interested in in the details.

22:45

But my my initial thought he

22:47

had of course is what kind

22:50

of staging is going on with

22:52

with Catherine. Well and I

22:54

have a query about how you

22:56

would investigate something like this today.

22:58

Let's say that the injuries to

23:00

her. Let's. Say it's just blunt

23:03

force right like that It looks like

23:05

she's been beaten to death or stepped

23:07

on are more whatever that could possibly

23:09

have happened by a ball. What would

23:12

they do to tease that out? Would

23:14

they be looking for like organic material

23:16

from the bulls horns or from the

23:18

who us to determine whether it happen

23:21

from a bowl or whether it happened

23:23

from a piece of water or somebody

23:25

cysts? If the injuries could kind of

23:27

be consistent. Twelve. Years

23:29

first and foremost is this is

23:32

where he. It really comes down

23:34

to very thorough documentation because at

23:37

the scene with this type of

23:39

blunt force trauma they could be

23:41

a very bloody scene. A.

23:43

Lot of the the actual

23:45

injuries. the wounds may not

23:48

be readily visible until the

23:50

body is cleaned up but

23:52

the the idea of let's

23:54

say layered injuries were you

23:56

have a homicide with blunt

23:58

force trauma using. Whether obese,

24:00

this and stomping a war

24:02

in impact weapon of some

24:05

sort, a hammer, a baseball

24:07

bat and then now you

24:09

have a two thousand plus

24:11

pound animal stomping on their

24:13

bodies, it could very easily

24:15

complicate the interpretation of of

24:17

what happened and so the

24:19

devil would be in the

24:21

details, and a writ really

24:23

would depend on what what

24:25

is present that could differentiate

24:27

post mortem damage by this

24:29

large animal. Vs violence inflicted by

24:31

a human. And it's not necessarily

24:33

just the injuries to the body

24:35

Says what's going on with the

24:37

closing? it's going. What's what's going

24:39

on within the crime scene. Is

24:41

there a secondary crime scene? Obviously

24:43

if there's blood in the house

24:45

that's on the property and now

24:47

Catherine's body is this bullpen? Well,

24:50

obviously the ball as an inside

24:52

the house doing it, that would

24:54

be a clue. He had all.

24:56

but you know it really depends

24:58

on what is present and. It

25:00

would be so easy. To

25:02

miss. Maybe that little

25:04

detail that would differentiate

25:06

homicide from accidental stomping

25:08

by the ball. Well,

25:11

let's continue. Daniel is petrified at

25:13

this and Myron runs up and

25:16

is very upset also and the

25:18

two men go to the farmhouse

25:20

to alert others except that. Catherine's.

25:23

Mother and Father are away from

25:25

the farm. Mr. Richards is in

25:27

another town doing business and Mrs.

25:30

Richards's in a store across the

25:32

county. so the only one who's

25:34

there is a woman who is

25:37

Catherine. Sister Maggie. their happens also

25:39

be a seamstress who joins up

25:41

with them and accompanies the men

25:43

and they go back to the

25:46

barn. Maggie is in complete shock

25:48

and says to the farmhands how

25:50

did Catherine die and Myron says.

25:53

We assume it was from the ball

25:55

because she was found in the bulls

25:57

pen and the ball was running around

25:59

and. The people get kicked all the

26:01

time. Little something about me Paul I've

26:04

been kicked by horse numerous times. One

26:06

I was taught by Ferrier out a

26:08

clean or horses' hooves and I just

26:10

made a bad decision. About where to go

26:12

and I got kicked. And it hurts.

26:14

It has a huge bruce it can kill

26:16

people you know if your outstanding in the

26:19

right place and I was not standing and

26:21

right place a couple of times and I

26:23

learned a lesson. So when I read the

26:25

details of potentially is this going to be

26:27

something that a bull did I didn't think

26:30

this. Is gonna be surprising at all. Plenty

26:32

of people died from both bulls am horses.

26:34

When. Mr and Mrs. Richards come

26:36

home and they're told what happens.

26:38

They don't seem that surprised, not

26:40

because you know they weren't upset,

26:43

but that is what happens sometimes.

26:45

As we talked about living on

26:47

a farm, this spreads across the

26:49

community and it's Athena really seen

26:51

as a tragic death at this

26:53

point and the bull explanation is

26:55

very plausible to just about everybody

26:57

who hears about it except are

26:59

very smart corner and we've talked

27:01

about corners before how they are

27:04

elected. They. Don't always have to be

27:06

there aren't many times have medical knowledge. I

27:08

will tell you in a season of temple

27:10

More Wicked Idea was a coroner who became

27:12

a corner because he owned a very popular

27:15

tavern and people thought he would make a

27:17

great corner. so we happen to have a

27:19

smart one thank goodness here. but let's just.

27:22

Review Corners right now for

27:24

us! Okay, well you know

27:26

of course and in our

27:28

current day we have by

27:30

both corners as well as

27:32

medical examiners. Depending on the

27:34

states and jurisdiction, the corners

27:36

can either be elected officials

27:38

or a combined official like

27:40

I used to work for

27:42

a sheriff corner office so

27:44

the elected sheriff was actually

27:46

the corner as well as

27:48

but he wasn't involved in

27:50

the day to day. Aspects.

27:53

Of the corners operations there was

27:55

a captain that was assigned stand

27:58

the pathologists where the was conduct

28:00

the autopsy can determine cause of

28:02

death dead. Then the captain would

28:04

be the one that issues the

28:06

death certificate with the manner of

28:09

death based on what a true

28:11

medical doctor determined. However, in jurisdictions

28:13

across United States back in the

28:15

eighteen hundreds as well as still

28:18

today there are elected quarters and

28:20

often times they became quarters because

28:22

they were funeral Home director. so

28:24

they were used to seeing and

28:27

working with the deceased. But they're

28:29

not medical. Professionals in some

28:31

jurisdictions see individuals conducting the

28:33

autopsies have limited expertise relative

28:35

to other jurisdictions. The pathologist

28:37

that have been hired they're

28:40

So this is where it

28:42

now. You get into smooth

28:44

you know situations to where

28:46

things get messed on all

28:48

fronts whether be a homicide

28:50

and accidental and natural suicide.

28:52

You know these can be

28:54

mess because you don't have

28:57

the the people with the

28:59

right experience. Or expertise conducting

29:01

the examinations and then forming

29:04

the right expert opinions. What

29:06

is the solution to that? nationwide?

29:09

Well, you know it, it's complicated

29:12

answer. There has been recommendations over

29:14

the years that are the corners

29:16

system should be abolished and it

29:19

should move entirely over to a

29:21

medical examiners. Or now you have

29:23

true medical professionals that are not

29:26

only the ones that are conducting

29:28

the examinations on the deceased were

29:30

there. be the autopsies or the

29:33

microscopic exams, review in the toxicology

29:35

results, and forming a medical expert

29:37

opinion as to the. The

29:39

cause of death. And then you

29:42

have a a medical professional, the

29:44

medical examiner himself who's the one

29:46

that is issuing the death certificate

29:49

as to the manner of death,

29:51

but there's complications with that of

29:53

course. Now you're having to completely

29:56

change a system in which you

29:58

have a very our for elected

30:00

official that's not going to want

30:02

to give up their power and

30:05

there is a democratic aspect to

30:07

that. There's statutes in place that

30:09

would have to be rico defies

30:12

and then there's costs involved. Huge

30:14

costs in terms of if you're

30:16

going to become a medical examiner's

30:19

office. and let's say you want

30:21

to abide by accreditations standards. There's

30:23

a maximum number of autopsy said

30:25

a forensic pathologists within an accredited

30:28

medical examiner's office can do. And

30:31

in order to meet that

30:33

standard so you can become

30:35

an accredited medical examiner's office,

30:37

often you have to double

30:39

or triple the number of

30:41

pathologists that you have employed

30:43

or pathologists are expensive and

30:45

they're rare in fact, work

30:47

with. We have a a

30:49

dilemma because there's very few

30:51

medical professionals that want to

30:54

be com forensic pathologists. Yes

30:57

the it. oh it's a tough

30:59

thing. To find that higher

31:01

forensic pathologists and so now

31:04

what you see and what

31:06

happened in my county is

31:08

you have contract pathologists and

31:10

so they under contract work

31:13

for a county. But. They

31:15

often worked for multiple counties. So.

31:17

They they not only do autopsies

31:19

for one county and then they

31:21

will get in their car and

31:23

drive to another county and have

31:25

to do more autopsy, lung and

31:28

do you know and and so

31:30

they're stretched since so there's a

31:32

lot of resources. Money changes our

31:34

have to be made in order

31:36

to fix the system. Well. I

31:38

don't know the background of this

31:40

corner from Eighteen Seventy Eight Looking

31:43

at Caf Remarry Richards. When he's

31:45

doing an autopsy. Or an exam

31:47

in a sense, but he is

31:49

calling Bs. On this whole bowl

31:51

story. So I'll tell you what he

31:53

says. I don't have a ton of details. forward

31:55

scan to trust that he clearly knows what he's

31:57

doing. He says he's covered and scratches and bruises.

32:00

He doesn't think our consisted of the

32:02

ball. he says she was hit near

32:04

the temple was some sort of blunt

32:07

object. He does not think that it

32:09

was a bore from a bull's horns

32:11

or stomping. she had having marks around

32:13

her neck that appear to have been

32:16

made by some sort of literature. So

32:18

this idea that the ball did all

32:20

this of course gets flown out the

32:23

window and he said it seems clear

32:25

that she died of strangulation. So the

32:27

question of where the other crime scene.

32:30

Is is. It doesn't seem like

32:32

there is one. There is a

32:34

young girl. In. A bullpen with

32:36

the gate open. who has appeared to

32:38

be strangled. So the corner says this

32:40

is murder. This was struggle, she fought

32:43

hard and this is not a bowl

32:45

and now we need to investigate. So

32:47

what do you think about all that

32:49

seems pretty clear. Yeah.

32:51

Know they got lucky if the

32:53

corner is taken a look and

32:55

sees luggage or marks in circling

32:57

Catherine's next a ball isn't to

32:59

in that by stopping and fucking

33:01

around inside that pounds or so

33:03

now they're still has to be

33:05

an evaluation of what else is

33:07

going on with Catherine's body in

33:09

terms of what can be attributed

33:11

to the ball versus what is

33:13

not, but also an evaluation of

33:15

this bull pen as a crime

33:17

scene itself. How did the ball

33:19

escape was purposefully let out? It

33:21

does it indicate that the ball

33:24

became agitated, adjusts somehow broke out

33:26

as a pan and if it

33:28

looks like the board must have

33:30

been purposely word out well who

33:32

who would do that, why would

33:34

they do? That's and this is

33:36

where your investigation starts going to

33:38

an end. This is now having

33:40

to talk to. Okay so when

33:42

was Catherine last seen? Who was

33:44

see last seen? With the people

33:46

who are on this isolated farms,

33:48

they need to account for all

33:50

of their activities. Over. the course of

33:52

the last twenty four hours and and right

33:54

now i have no information when catherine was

33:56

last seen so i don't know how long

33:59

she's been dead she killed the day

34:01

before and she's just now being discovered or

34:03

was she killed that morning? Well,

34:05

the parents and the sister saw her

34:07

that day and again, huge farm and

34:09

everybody did different things on this farm

34:11

and the parents left. The farmhand saw

34:13

her that day. This is near the

34:15

end of the day. And

34:18

one more piece of medical evidence

34:20

that is very important. The

34:22

coroner says it appears she had been

34:24

sexually assaulted either just before or just

34:26

after her death. Now, do I have

34:28

details on what that means and how

34:30

they came to that conclusion? No.

34:33

Why do I think that he probably

34:35

knew what he was talking about? If

34:37

they gave evidence that they said this

34:39

is somebody who has definitely been sexually

34:42

assaulted, it means they probably found fluid

34:44

and definitely disheveled clothing and

34:46

probably trauma to the vaginal area

34:48

or a different area. But theirs

34:50

was not a been a microscope

34:52

era at this point where we would

34:54

have had a coroner being able to look at

34:56

different things under the microscope. But he

34:59

said he is certain she's been sexually assaulted.

35:01

So there's part of your motive right there,

35:03

it seems like. No,

35:05

for sure. And, you know, anytime

35:07

I'm dealing with a female victim

35:09

that's been strangled, you

35:12

know, there always has to be that

35:14

mindset that sexual motivation

35:18

was part of the contributing factors

35:20

to the crime. Whether or not sex

35:22

acts were accomplished doesn't negate the

35:24

idea that it's a sexually motivated crime.

35:26

You're exactly right in terms of

35:28

back in this era, they're looking at

35:31

her state of clothing. You know, was

35:33

she, let's say, nude from the

35:35

waist to down? Was her

35:37

body left in a splayed type of

35:40

position? Was there trauma to

35:42

the genital area or other parts of

35:44

her body that would indicate some sort

35:46

of sex acts that occurred? And

35:49

then the idea that, you know,

35:51

during autopsy, sometimes, not all the

35:53

time, there can be a visualization

35:56

Of, let's say, semen within the

35:58

vaginal vault at. An example:

36:00

They're not necessarily doing a formal

36:02

identification of it, but a corner

36:05

of all Just would say this

36:07

substance is not something that is

36:09

native to this female body. One

36:11

thing I want to talk about because these words will

36:14

come up a little bit and I know I've said

36:16

this before. You know, of course they didn't say rape.

36:18

Or sexual assault in the eighteen hundreds. Oftentimes

36:20

if you read and eighteen. Hundreds newspapers

36:23

or and documents. If you see

36:25

outrage, he outraged her that

36:27

sexual assault. Molest, which

36:29

seems a little clearer is also one,

36:31

but the third one that pops up

36:34

a couple times in the story is

36:36

rather is so you know He ravished

36:38

her and actually my kid was just

36:40

reading Nineteen Eighty Four and she said

36:42

to me. Winston, who's one of the

36:45

main characters, nineteen Eighty Four in a George

36:47

Orwell's. Book. Says he wants to ravage

36:49

this woman said she said what does that

36:51

even mean and then I had to have

36:53

a discussion with her about what that meant.

36:55

Issues: Very confused about the word. so are

36:58

you know? Oftentimes we have to explain what

37:00

these words are because I'll read verbatim some

37:02

other things that were said so your clear.

37:04

Scare you. I have never heard

37:07

the term outraged used in that

37:09

fashion. Or so that's that's very

37:11

educational. Nope. Well. This is interesting

37:14

the way this moves forward because the

37:16

Coroner's declaration that this was murder alarms

37:18

every one. This is a young girl

37:20

you know from a family of farmers.

37:22

This is an innocence area. This is

37:24

rural. Everybody says to be safe. All

37:27

of the stuff. That. We think

37:29

comes with living on a farm and

37:31

now people are scared to death about

37:33

who is out there and they immediately

37:35

start asking of course about alibis which

37:37

on a farm is really hard. These

37:39

are people who work independently of are

37:41

often times not seen for for you

37:44

know days and days of the time.

37:46

I mean you and I have used

37:48

to think back to the beginning. Of

37:50

Barry Bones, one of our very. First episodes

37:52

was about a young man

37:54

who sell from the top

37:56

of the windmill remember. I

37:58

am remembering that p. Hadn't seen him

38:01

for a long time. He was up

38:03

there by himself working on a windmill

38:05

and then his uncle comes back and

38:07

he's dead at the bottom. And the

38:09

big question is was he murdered because

38:11

he had some inheritance and so it

38:13

is a mystery because you've got the

38:15

outside where there's a nightmare for forensics.

38:17

You know you've got people who are.

38:19

Who are working and very isolated

38:21

conditions very far apart. And

38:23

so when they're asking these farmhands where

38:25

were you when she might have been

38:27

murdered, the time ones are a little

38:30

bit squishy. So Mirin is someone they

38:32

look at pretty closely. his the twenty

38:34

year old, and he was actually absent

38:36

during a key window of time here.

38:38

When they believe she was killed, she

38:41

was warm when the corner report it

38:43

out there. he went pretty quickly. it

38:45

sounds like so they know it happened,

38:47

that people saw her in the early

38:49

afternoon and she's dead before the sun

38:52

goes down. So Mirin is kind

38:54

of under suspicion at the beginning because

38:56

they're trying to figure out what his

38:58

timeline as his coworker. Daniel says that

39:01

while they were outstanding to the hearts,

39:03

Myron said that his boots were giving

39:05

him some blisters. He went to the

39:08

farmhouse to grab a new pair of

39:10

boots, but that should have been pretty

39:12

quick and he didn't return for forty

39:15

five minutes. And when Daniel says, where

39:17

were you, he says that he was

39:19

wrangling a colts and a mare that

39:22

had busted out. Of a nearby stable

39:24

which is a totally valid alibi. I

39:26

mean, we are talking about unexpected things

39:28

that are happening. I was backed up

39:30

against a tree for about twenty five

39:32

minutes because a water moccasin was sitting

39:34

in front of me and I was

39:36

petrified. So upset I would. Not about

39:38

a good alibi either if that were

39:40

happening. And that's what Myron says, try

39:42

to prove me wrong. So.

39:45

A couple things myron as

39:47

isolating themselves back to the

39:49

farmhouse. So is this where

39:51

I'm presuming for Catherine was

39:53

likely located that they aren't

39:55

sure just yet. Okay, because.

39:57

She is wandering around doing different things. The

39:59

also she was a really big fan. Of

40:02

playing with a cast member. she's fourteen, she's young

40:04

ship and she likes to play with the Cavs.

40:06

Sudden nobody knows One hundred percent. Where she

40:08

was when this happened? That's the

40:10

problem and the the second thing

40:12

is is is Myron to account

40:14

for why it took him so

40:17

long as he's having to wrangle

40:19

these other animals that had broken

40:21

out and Catherine is found because

40:23

a ball reportedly breaks out which

40:25

we know is is a true

40:27

saw and factual occurrence says he.

40:29

Also this is where rocky. So

40:31

how often are the animals break

40:33

in out on this farmhouse or

40:36

as mirin doing what typical. Liars

40:38

do is to see weaving some

40:40

truth some fact into his statement.

40:42

So those are things that I've

40:45

I'm paying attention to. Been evaluating

40:47

Myers, so if he's going back

40:49

to the farmhouse, he's isolated. Okay,

40:51

in my mind, he's checking a

40:54

box of he potentially has opportunity

40:56

to commit the crime. What?

40:58

Was Myron and Catherine's

41:00

relationship like prior to

41:03

the homicide occurring? Do.

41:05

We know that funny should ask

41:07

Pol whole oh. Things get

41:09

pretty complicated because of Mirin. The

41:11

investigators of course find out that

41:13

his alibi is as I say,

41:15

squishy and they start talking to

41:17

people about Mirin and his relationship

41:19

is there even is one with

41:21

Catherine. So Myron spend their i

41:24

think he's going on his third

41:26

season now seasonal work as a

41:28

farmhand, so probably the first time

41:30

he met Catherine would have been

41:32

when. She was about eleven or

41:34

twelve. It sounds like according to.

41:37

Daniel and according to other people

41:39

who have been around them both

41:41

that he was infatuated with Catherine.

41:43

So six years his junior which

41:45

would not be that surprising is

41:47

sea salt the same way and

41:49

she didn't. Fourteen. And twenty

41:52

wouldn't have shocked anybody in the

41:54

eighteen hundreds relates. So Catherine

41:56

did not like his

41:58

advances. See had. How's

42:00

to her? She. Said no.

42:02

I'm sure her father was not for

42:04

old about it either. She reacted in

42:06

appropriately. According to Murder by Gaslight, which

42:08

is my favorite true crime blog. He

42:11

proposed in. she said know what

42:13

witnesses said, you know propriety in

42:16

the Eighteen Hundreds What they said

42:18

was that he made improper suggestions

42:20

that were really distressing for Catherine

42:23

the here which means lewd comments.

42:25

And Catherine was really freaked out

42:27

and said i'm gonna tell my

42:29

parents if you don't stop And

42:32

so he backed off. So he

42:34

was reacting in this is where

42:36

we need to get into profiling

42:38

of this is or guy. He's

42:40

reacting in a very aggressive, almost

42:42

village globally right now violent way

42:44

when she's rejecting his advances His

42:46

boss's daughter. Will Myron his

42:48

second? Another box. Your. He

42:50

is showing an infatuation or maybe

42:53

even an obsession with Catherine for

42:55

sounds like a several years leading

42:57

up to for homicide. So this

43:00

is where okay he's isolated himself,

43:02

He's given himself an opportunity to

43:04

have committed the crime he is

43:06

had a prior of interest and

43:09

catherine for a few years leading

43:11

up to the crime being committed

43:13

when the ball is seen. Myron,

43:16

Is back with Daniel holding

43:18

the hops, do we have

43:20

an idea of odd how

43:22

Law admire and had been

43:24

with Daniel before the ball's

43:26

shows? I. Don't have that

43:28

idea Now I'm not sure. Daniels. Really

43:31

good at figuring. Out the timeline, it sounds

43:33

like he left to get new boots and

43:35

then that bull at some point comes out

43:37

itself again. You'll just knew that Myron should

43:40

have been back far sooner. And then everything

43:42

goes out the window when the boy's running

43:44

around in that both guys are freaked out.

43:46

But we know when the ball is running

43:49

around, that Myron and Daniel are now together

43:51

because are worried about the ball. And that's

43:53

when Daniel makes the discovery of Catherine Dead

43:55

and the bulls Penn. So that's a sequence

43:58

of events for I don't know. Timeline

44:00

wise, How much. Time was there? Your

44:02

that be? One of the things that

44:04

that time would be one of the

44:06

things that I'd be kind of paying

44:08

attention to. His Let's use the the

44:10

hypothetical that Myron is Catherine's killer. He

44:12

kills are places are in the bullpen

44:14

and then leaves the gate open for

44:16

the ball to get out. How long

44:18

would it take for the balls to

44:20

either figure out how to get out

44:22

or was the ball forced out of

44:25

the pan? So now Catherine's body could

44:27

be discovered in the bullpen in this

44:29

staging of a crime scene. And this

44:31

is. What is so significant

44:33

to me? Imagine a

44:35

stranger who just wandering

44:37

through the countryside and

44:40

stumbles across this farm.

44:42

sees Catherine sexy, assaults

44:44

strangles Catherine. He

44:46

has no connection to the farm,

44:48

He has no connection to the

44:50

people on the farm. Why is

44:53

he going to elevate his risk

44:55

by manipulating Catherine's body and taken

44:57

Catherine's body to the bullpen in

44:59

order to try to stage this

45:01

crime scene? That stranger offender is

45:03

going to run off and get

45:05

away the not take that time.

45:08

So this is where the staging

45:10

of the crime scene really does

45:12

kind of focus my attention on

45:14

the people that would likely. Be

45:16

suspects they it themselves think they

45:19

would be a suspect. they're trying

45:21

to miss direct the trying to

45:23

cover up this. This homicide a

45:25

make it looks like a accidental

45:28

deaths so again that is consistent

45:30

with with Myron are not saying

45:32

migrants the guy right now but

45:35

you know Myron has some explaining

45:37

to do it. My mind. Tell.

45:40

Me what you think about this

45:42

because I don't think Daniel likes

45:44

Myron very much. She tells investigators

45:46

when they say tell us about

45:48

this guy. He had a good

45:51

reputation as up a hard worker

45:53

on the farm and Daniel says

45:55

that Myron told them something disturbing

45:57

weeks before Catherine's death. Mirin said.

46:00

The Daniel that Mirin had a

46:02

relative. A male relative. So this

46:04

is Myron Rolle to have, not

46:06

Myron who had no. This is

46:08

the quote is why I need

46:10

to give you some definitions of

46:12

rape from the Eighteen Hundreds who

46:14

had Quote succeeded in out raging

46:16

girls by choking them with a

46:18

poured. Than. Carrying out his intentions

46:20

while they were partly insensible so he's

46:22

a thing I do this he saying

46:24

my relatives does out. why would he

46:26

do that as he is guilty of

46:28

what just happened and this is before

46:30

Catherine dies But is an odd thing

46:33

to say. It is so

46:35

you know it's It's not unheard

46:37

of for your own terms of

46:39

individuals almost bragging about whether what

46:42

they've done or what family members

46:44

or other associates have done to

46:46

a confidence you know of. But

46:49

this is where okay we have

46:51

with this statement that Daniel was

46:53

saying Myron told him and of

46:56

course the details in that statement

46:58

overlap with what happened with Catherine.

47:00

I need to know why was

47:03

this really factual? With a relative

47:05

of my runs that I would

47:07

assume that Daniel what have no

47:10

idea about unless Myron had actually

47:12

made that statement or does day

47:14

and you'll have somebody and his

47:17

family who has done that yet.

47:19

Odds And so this is where

47:21

it's okay. I now have a

47:23

statement that significant and is Daniel

47:26

putting that out there because Myron

47:28

truly did say that to him?

47:30

Or is Daniel putting that out

47:32

there because he's. Tried to direct

47:35

the investigation and keep the focus

47:37

of the investigation on Myron And if

47:39

it turns out that Daniels one that

47:41

has somebody and his family that has

47:44

done this type of crime over and

47:46

over again with women Now I start

47:48

to think well, maybe Daniel. Is.

47:51

the one that is responsible

47:53

because there's no reason to

47:55

do that miss direction and

47:57

lie to law enforcement absent

47:59

using modern technology Now, this

48:01

is just gumshoe investigative technique

48:03

to try to figure out

48:05

which one of these guys is the one that killed

48:08

Catherine. And I was just thinking this,

48:10

you know, if they had been

48:12

able to pen the semen on because

48:14

of DNA and they were able to

48:16

pen it on Daniel or Myron, so

48:19

then you could say to one of

48:21

these guys, this is your evidence on

48:23

her, modern day guy would say,

48:25

yeah, we had sex and then that was it. She agreed.

48:28

That was it. I don't know what happened to

48:30

her. She was fine when I left her. There's no way

48:32

that response would have been believed in the 1800s at all. Let

48:36

me give you physical evidence that would

48:38

help tease that out. So

48:40

in all likelihood, you know, there

48:43

are instances where offenders redress their

48:45

victims, but oftentimes with

48:47

the sexually motivated homicides where the

48:49

victim like Catherine is strangled, the

48:52

sequence can vary, but let's say

48:54

she has strangled contemporaneous to the

48:57

sexual acts. Now she's

48:59

placed in the bullpen. Chances

49:01

are her undergarments haven't been placed back

49:03

on her. So one of

49:05

the types of physical evidence that I

49:07

would be looking at is, okay, presuming

49:10

the coroner is right and there's

49:12

vaginal semen after, let's say, a

49:14

sexual assault, the woman redresses, there's

49:17

vaginal drainage, which now into the crotch

49:19

of the underwear, we get that semen

49:21

into the crotch. It shows that her

49:24

clothing had been put back on after

49:26

the semen had been deposited in terms of her

49:28

internally. So I

49:30

would be looking at Catherine's clothing

49:33

to see, oh, yes, I see

49:35

this, whether it be Daniel or

49:38

Myron's semen in her undergarments, which

49:40

would indicate the sex act possibly

49:42

occurred prior to the homicide because

49:44

she was allowed to redress. And

49:47

then you have the vaginal drainage. But

49:49

if I don't see that, then

49:51

it would suggest that her

49:54

undergarments had been taken off, the semen

49:56

had been deposited and she was not

49:58

allowed to redress. or go

50:00

vertical and function with these

50:02

undergarments on. So now this

50:05

is not, oh, I just had sex with

50:07

her. This is, well, you

50:09

had sex with her and she never

50:11

put her underwear back on and

50:13

she's been strangled. There's more to the

50:16

story here. Well, that's interesting.

50:18

Moving forward, we'll just kind of go through this

50:20

quickly. He is arrested because

50:22

he seems like a jerk and he says

50:24

weird, creepy things. And it

50:27

sounds like she rejected him and people

50:29

knew that. There is zero physical evidence.

50:32

They did not find a court if that's

50:34

what he used. There was no way to

50:36

really pin it on him. And

50:38

they put him on trial for 10 days, which is

50:40

just like an epically long trial from the 1800s. And

50:44

the journalists watch him because he

50:47

is fascinating to them. He seems

50:49

either puzzled or indifferent. He, I

50:53

don't know how journalists think that killers are

50:55

supposed to react when they're sitting there listening

50:57

in their own trial. But some of the

50:59

most entertaining things from the 1800s I've read

51:02

is just like the description of these people.

51:04

And I kept thinking, well, how would you

51:06

react if you're sitting there with all these

51:08

reporters staring at you and the victim's families?

51:10

There's no right reaction, I think,

51:12

from anybody, particularly a guilty person. Sure,

51:15

and it is hard to assess. And

51:18

I've testified, well, I've actually testified

51:20

close to 200 times, but I

51:23

would say 50, over

51:26

50 times for major felony cases in

51:28

which a defendant is looking at a

51:30

serious charge. And

51:32

how they're sitting there, most

51:34

of them look disengaged, to

51:36

be frank. I've seen some, notably

51:38

NorCal Rapist. He

51:43

was very engaged with the testimony. And

51:45

then I've also seen, I've literally seen

51:48

what a psychotic defendant looks like. Somebody

51:50

where you walk in, you go, oh

51:52

yeah, he's not here. He mentally

51:55

has an issue. And in fact, the

51:57

judge ultimately, in that case, you

51:59

know, found the guy incompetent to

52:02

stand trial. So

52:04

it is so hard to

52:06

assess, evaluating like Myron's disposition

52:08

as he's standing trial for

52:10

what ultimately, you know,

52:12

is going to determine what's going to happen

52:14

to him for the rest of his life

52:16

or whether he's going to continue to live.

52:19

And I'll tell you, Paul, I mean, I don't

52:21

know if a lot of people know this,

52:23

but they regularly drugged defendants during their trials. So,

52:26

you know, I've written about, I would say,

52:28

half a dozen people who were given morphine

52:30

right before their trial. So you

52:33

cannot look at them and assess anything in

52:35

any way possible to think this is an

52:37

accurate picture of who this person is. But

52:40

Myron really fascinated reporters.

52:43

And I want to get to me one

52:45

of the more interesting parts here. And

52:47

we're just going to skip over the trial. I mean, really,

52:49

he is, despite I think

52:51

a lack of evidence, he is found

52:54

guilty. Does that surprise you or no?

52:56

I mean, there's no evidence against him, except

52:58

he's a creep. And he has no real

53:00

good alibi. But I mean, that's farm life.

53:02

Yeah, you know, because I was going to

53:04

make a comment that though

53:07

there's some boxes checked on

53:09

Myron, I don't think that

53:11

the investigators with what you've

53:13

told me have developed sufficient

53:16

probable cause for arrest. He's

53:18

a suspect. Daniel,

53:20

depending on details about

53:23

his timelines and his statements

53:25

and everything else, as I discussed before, potentially

53:28

is a suspect too. And

53:30

that's where it's, we need to figure

53:33

out, is it one of these

53:35

two or is it Mr. X, the

53:37

stranger who happened to wander onto

53:39

the property? So

53:41

that's where it's like, yeah,

53:43

you know, Myron probably has

53:46

the most boxes checked because

53:48

of isolating himself, the

53:51

evidence where, you know, he's wrangling these animals

53:53

that broke out of their pen. And we

53:55

happen to have a bull break out of

53:57

the pen where Catherine was found. as

54:00

well as his prior infatuation with

54:02

Catherine. But this doesn't add up

54:04

enough to where I believe that

54:07

there's probable cause that he

54:09

can be arrested for Catherine's

54:12

murder. He's just

54:14

suspect number one in my mind. Well,

54:16

what's interesting about Myron is this is

54:18

one of those cases from the 1800s

54:21

that I bring

54:23

to you where I look at this and go, there's

54:25

not enough evidence. Just like you said, there's not enough

54:27

evidence. This guy never should have been convicted. He

54:30

might not have done it just because he's weird

54:32

and a creep and checks some boxes does not

54:34

mean he should be sent to the gallows.

54:36

And then I read that three days before his

54:39

execution, he confesses to all of it. Very

54:41

detailed. And that's why I wanted to get

54:43

to the confession because he planned

54:46

this out. And luckily for the

54:48

prosecutors, they got the right person and it

54:51

doesn't seem like it was Daniel or

54:53

Mr. Richards or father or mystery man X.

54:56

He gives a detailed confession. But this

54:58

was not, I would not say dumb

55:00

luck that they got the right person.

55:02

But boy, you know, this doesn't happen all the time

55:05

where it's scant evidence and they convict and this is

55:07

definitely the right person because he said, yeah, I did

55:09

it. I'm telling you, I did it. And here's how.

55:12

Yeah. Well, and this is where it

55:14

comes down to, you know, looking at,

55:16

you know, various suspects on various

55:18

cases over the decades that I've

55:20

worked cases. It's, God,

55:22

there seems to be enough substance

55:24

here. This is possibly

55:26

the guy. Do I have probable

55:28

cause? You know, and this is

55:31

something any investigator working a kind

55:33

of a whodunit homicide is asking.

55:35

There's obvious in modern day

55:37

cases, there's obvious things. We have DNA

55:39

that we know came from the offender

55:41

and it matches the suspect. Yes.

55:44

But when you're dealing with circumstances, one

55:47

of the things about probable cause, and you'll

55:49

hear whether it be, you

55:52

know, when you're going through legal

55:54

training and the police academy or

55:56

experienced homicide investigators says, well,

55:58

I can't necessarily define. cause but I

56:00

know it when I see it and

56:04

then you have to convince the DA I've got

56:06

probable cause or a judge I've got probable cause.

56:09

I think it was the Supreme Court that was trying

56:11

to define pornography. We can't define it but we know

56:13

it when we see it. It's very much the same

56:16

feeling. Well let me tell you about the confession

56:18

and then he says something that I want you

56:20

to react to and it's the very last thing

56:22

he says. He appealed under the

56:24

grounds that the judge

56:26

should have advised the jury so this was

56:28

a jury trial that the

56:31

judge said your choices are to acquit

56:33

him or to convict him a first-degree

56:35

homicide and the appeal

56:37

basically said he should have been

56:39

given a multitude of murder degrees

56:41

not just one or the other.

56:43

He loses the appeal. He feels

56:46

like this is going to be the end of

56:48

his life and this is when he confesses. He

56:50

says okay to the Reverend I did it. He

56:53

says on this afternoon in question

56:55

he said Mr. and Mrs. Richards were gone

56:57

he knew that. He stepped away

56:59

from his work with that excuse my boots

57:01

hurt and he wanted

57:04

to find Catherine and he knew

57:06

he wanted to attack her. Animals

57:08

play a big part in this guy's scheme

57:11

here. He lets a calf loose from the

57:13

barn and he also lets

57:15

the bull loose. He lets the calf

57:17

loose because he knows Catherine loves

57:20

calves. He finds her in

57:22

the farm's cheese house remember I told you this is

57:25

a big place there's all kinds of houses and barns

57:27

and sheds. He finds her in the cheese house playing

57:29

with her kittens. He says this

57:31

calf is loose I need your help

57:34

and he knew predictably that she would

57:36

want to find the calf and keep

57:38

it safe. He said once

57:40

they found the calf and returned it to the

57:42

barn he closed the door and he put a

57:44

piece of fabric which they never found around her

57:47

neck and strangled her to death. So

57:49

he says her eyes is the quote her

57:51

eyes looked terrible when she was struggling Then

57:54

I struck her with a milking stool

57:56

that stood by me. Then I ravished

57:58

her. She was dead. It but warm

58:01

when I committed the crime. So.

58:03

What do you think about all

58:05

that and then there's more little

58:07

bit more voices At Yale suffers

58:09

a crime just on a on

58:11

a personal level and hearing the

58:13

details of what Catherine's last moments

58:15

in life for like from a

58:17

professional side? Yeah this is where

58:19

okay it Now I have details

58:21

and I asked to evaluate the

58:23

veracity of these details. You know

58:25

my concern from case out of

58:27

fear of eighteen seventy Eight do

58:29

we have a scenario of a

58:31

false confession? We have a twenty.

58:33

Year old farmhand. I don't know

58:35

what is intellectual capacity years, but

58:37

we know this age is somebody

58:39

that could be prone to false

58:41

confessions. I have to make sure

58:44

that what he is confessing to

58:46

is accurate with the physical evidence.

58:48

and so this is where even

58:50

though he's already convicted, I would

58:52

be wanting to go back and

58:54

go. Case you know they don't

58:56

have photographs. I know that. but

58:59

let me see Catherine's injuries. I

59:01

wanna see this sub. This milking.

59:03

Stores aren't You know that one of

59:05

the big things as is this piece

59:07

of fabric with the Reverend is not

59:10

going to be a trained interviewer you

59:12

know, but that's a huge that he

59:14

saying he used a a piece of

59:16

fabric to strangle Catherine Corner a saying

59:19

he saw the get or marks around

59:21

her neck. That. Piece

59:23

of fabric is huge or admire

59:26

and whereas that piece of fabric

59:28

and if he says i tucked

59:30

it underneath the woodpile in the

59:33

bullpen. I. Got to that would pile

59:35

of that fabric is air them being go.

59:37

Only. The killer would know that

59:39

you know so that's part of

59:42

what I would be doing. Even

59:44

though it's a convicted offender, there

59:46

still is an obligation to that

59:48

all the details to make sure

59:51

that he is providing the information

59:53

that only the killer would know.

59:55

So now I have confidence this

59:57

is a true confessions as some

59:59

of thing that he may be

1:00:02

saying happened the original investigators may

1:00:04

be on unaware of. They may

1:00:06

not have recognized the evidence in

1:00:08

terms of reconstructing the crime scene

1:00:11

but now that the information, the

1:00:13

details and statements are there then

1:00:15

that that evidence good. Oh that's

1:00:17

why this stool was over here

1:00:20

right at and that's part of

1:00:22

the interview processes. It's not just

1:00:24

just tell me what happened. Or.

1:00:27

You use the milk store. Okay, where was

1:00:29

it when you when you first saw it?

1:00:32

How did you use it? How many

1:00:34

blows did you inflict Was it? Where

1:00:36

did you put it afterwards and if

1:00:38

he says of why set it down

1:00:40

you know, to my right. But then

1:00:42

when I was running out of the

1:00:44

bullpen I kicked it's you know that's

1:00:46

the type of detail we don't cease.

1:00:48

That's why that that's tool is halfway

1:00:50

could see a whole way for work.

1:00:53

Normally would be yeah, but the details

1:00:55

that he's providing this sounds good to

1:00:57

me without the ability to do all

1:00:59

that type of veracity. check in that

1:01:01

I just. Talked about. And

1:01:03

just a button this up. You're right, The

1:01:05

Reverend as and asking a whole lot of

1:01:07

details about that. I think he's horrified about

1:01:10

listening to the story. Myron says that he

1:01:12

picked her up and carried her to the

1:01:14

Bulls fan so that you know they would

1:01:16

assume people would assume that she'd been bored

1:01:18

by the ball. I guess he forgot about

1:01:20

the literature. Mark around her neck. Or

1:01:23

he put her in the bullpen in

1:01:25

the open the gate and let the

1:01:27

ball go free. And then when the

1:01:29

reverend says why did you do this

1:01:32

he said she was gonna tell her

1:01:34

parents that I have then why I

1:01:36

can describe as a sleazy guy and

1:01:38

had been making all of these like

1:01:41

proposals and sexual advances and being mad

1:01:43

at her and he said in this

1:01:45

is Infuriating Paul Frankly quote I love

1:01:47

Catherine's in was jealous I intended to

1:01:50

kill her and ravaged her because I

1:01:52

was. Mad and I have heard

1:01:54

that from other tillers using that

1:01:56

word. mad there is a

1:01:58

sexualized by that these types

1:02:00

of offenders commit. They could

1:02:02

just kill out of anger

1:02:04

with no sexual component, but

1:02:07

they include a sexual component.

1:02:09

There's a fantasy aspect to

1:02:11

these offenders. I guarantee Myron,

1:02:14

who's been infatuated with Catherine

1:02:16

for several years and

1:02:18

making lewd comments, he's

1:02:20

fantasizing about doing certain sex

1:02:23

acts to her. So

1:02:25

in his statement, the first thing

1:02:28

he does is he strangles her.

1:02:30

This is self-preservation for him in

1:02:32

part. He's eliminating her from going

1:02:35

and telling his employers about his

1:02:38

lewdness, if you will. But after

1:02:41

killing her, he has sex with

1:02:43

her body. It's about sex. So

1:02:46

there's power control, there's anger,

1:02:48

but sex is

1:02:50

a fundamental aspect

1:02:53

to sexual offenders. That's

1:02:56

something that many people

1:02:58

just gloss over, but

1:03:01

no, it's fundamental. Something

1:03:03

within their nature, within

1:03:05

their upbringing, they have

1:03:08

crossed the sexual component and

1:03:10

the violence into one

1:03:13

thing, and that's how they

1:03:15

get sexual gratification. I

1:03:17

have offenders that will have consensual sex

1:03:20

with their girlfriends and halfway through, push

1:03:22

off and go and grab a gun

1:03:24

and then hold the gun to the woman's

1:03:26

head while he's having sex with her. He

1:03:28

doesn't need to do that in order for

1:03:30

sex, but he likes that violence and that

1:03:33

fear he's inflicting on his victim. These

1:03:35

are different types of individuals,

1:03:38

and the psychology of these

1:03:40

people are so different from

1:03:42

the normal. When I

1:03:44

talk to groups and law enforcement,

1:03:46

I talk introduction

1:03:49

and recognition of the serial predator, and

1:03:51

one of my big phrases is, know

1:03:53

thy enemy, because these types

1:03:56

of sexual predators think differently

1:03:58

and do different things. Well,

1:04:01

let's go back to that statement that

1:04:04

Daniel made where Myron has

1:04:06

said my, quote unquote, relative like

1:04:09

to outrage girls and

1:04:12

strangle them with a cord. I hate

1:04:14

to say, well, I am glad that

1:04:16

even though law enforcement had diddly squat

1:04:19

as evidence that they got him because

1:04:21

they obviously got the right person, legally,

1:04:24

what a bad case. Actually,

1:04:27

what a good outcome except, of course, I'm

1:04:29

not going to give an opinion on execution,

1:04:31

but he was hanged in November

1:04:33

of 1879. So

1:04:35

there you go. No evidence. They get

1:04:38

the right person. He would

1:04:40

have continued absolutely doing this. I think

1:04:42

you and I both know that if

1:04:44

this had not happened. But

1:04:46

I mean, you just said this wouldn't have even been,

1:04:48

you know, you wouldn't have even gotten arrest for it

1:04:50

these days on that evidence. Sure.

1:04:53

Well, and again, the case,

1:04:55

at least as it stood for what

1:04:58

they could do relative

1:05:00

to today's standards is

1:05:02

it's thin, but they were on the right track.

1:05:05

Suspect number one is Myron. No question

1:05:07

about it. But I do

1:05:09

want to make the comment, you know, if

1:05:12

in fact one of Myron's relatives was

1:05:15

a serial sexual predator, we've

1:05:17

seen this over and over again. This type

1:05:19

of crime runs in families. Is it

1:05:22

nature? I think

1:05:24

it's a combination of both. You have

1:05:26

somebody that is born with a certain predisposition.

1:05:28

And then of course, if

1:05:30

that type of activity is something that

1:05:32

is not only permissible, but

1:05:35

even encouraged in some of these

1:05:37

families, then you have somebody that

1:05:39

goes out and acts in that way. You

1:05:42

know, so if they had done the

1:05:44

follow up on that statement and found,

1:05:46

yes, a close relative of Myron was

1:05:48

a serial rapist, you know, then there

1:05:51

you go. There already is a predilection

1:05:53

within Myron and we see it over and

1:05:56

over again in law enforcement. Bad

1:05:58

for the legal system. Good for... the

1:06:00

community to get closure. And I'm sure

1:06:02

that his confession just horrified her parents.

1:06:04

It must have been just devastating. But

1:06:07

this is a good case because I

1:06:09

think about what we use to convict

1:06:12

people now, what they used

1:06:14

in the 1600s. I

1:06:16

can't go back any further. I might have to draw the

1:06:18

line at the 1600s. But

1:06:21

I mean, you know, they still were on

1:06:23

the right track, as we know, throughout history.

1:06:25

And this is one of those cases where I just

1:06:28

said, well, at least they caught him. But

1:06:30

thank goodness they got it right. And it wasn't Daniel.

1:06:32

I mean, what if it were Daniel? I mean, you

1:06:34

know, what if this guy didn't confess and he was

1:06:36

hanged? Yeah, you know, if

1:06:38

we had all the details, you know,

1:06:40

from what the investigators had, it's

1:06:43

a good training case

1:06:46

for investigators. Okay, this is

1:06:48

how, without using modern

1:06:50

technology, this is how to build

1:06:52

a case and to investigate a

1:06:55

case and to sort

1:06:57

out, you know, some of the

1:06:59

complexities. Because oftentimes we have multiple

1:07:01

suspects that have circumstances that seem

1:07:03

to check the boxes that they

1:07:06

could be involved. How does

1:07:08

one try to find out the facts

1:07:10

versus, oh, I've got boxes checked. I'm

1:07:12

going to jump on this guy. He's

1:07:15

got to be the guy. Well, no,

1:07:17

maybe he's not. Well,

1:07:21

another good case. I will say,

1:07:23

don't expect me to be wearing contacts

1:07:25

next week. I think it's going to take a

1:07:27

little longer. And I'm a chicken,

1:07:29

so we'll see what happens. But,

1:07:31

you know, next week I'll bring you something else

1:07:34

and maybe I'll be squinting. But definitely

1:07:36

it'll be interesting. I can promise you that,

1:07:38

Paul Holes. Well, Kate

1:07:40

Weichler-Dawson, if I can wear contacts, you

1:07:42

can wear contacts. I guarantee I'm

1:07:45

a bigger chicken than you. Oh, good to

1:07:47

know. Okay, good to know going forward. See,

1:07:50

we learned things. Thank you.

1:07:52

I'll see you next week. Bye. This

1:07:58

is being an absolute... production. For

1:08:01

our sources and show notes

1:08:03

go to exactly right media.com/buried

1:08:05

bones sources. Our senior producer

1:08:07

is Alexis Amorosi. Research by

1:08:09

Maren McClashan, Allie Elkin and

1:08:12

Kate Winkler Dossett. Our mixing

1:08:14

engineer is Ben Taladei. Our

1:08:16

theme song is by Tom Breifogel.

1:08:19

Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1:08:21

Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia

1:08:23

Hardstark and Daniel Kramer. You can

1:08:25

follow buried bones on Instagram

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and Facebook at buried bones pod. Kate's

1:08:30

most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a

1:08:32

Gilded Age Story of Murder and the Race

1:08:34

to Decode the Criminal Mind, is available now.

1:08:37

And Paul's best following memoir, Unmasked,

1:08:39

My Life Solving America's Cold Cases,

1:08:42

is also available now.