0:00

I'll tee up a lot of things because as we're building

0:02

our own brand, as our own bourbon

0:05

and spirits world, there'll

0:07

be a lot of things that I can learn from this too. So I'll

0:09

probably ask a lot of dumb questions that at

0:11

least I won't have to pay for consulting advice. Oh

0:14

wow, that was a

0:16

good trick, yeah.

0:28

This

0:28

is Bourbon Pursuit. The official podcast

0:30

of bourbon, bringing to you the best in

0:33

news, reviews and interviews with

0:35

people making the bourbon whiskey industry happen.

0:38

And I'm one of your hosts, Kenny Coleman. So

0:40

what attracts you to a particular brand? Well,

0:44

for most people, we really look at it as

0:46

that unexplainable underpinning that

0:48

is also called brand mysticism. And

0:51

I'm joined by author Aaron Goldfarb and

0:53

brand icon builder, Stephen Grass,

0:55

to talk about this very subject that they happen

0:58

to publish

0:58

a book on called, well, you guessed it,

1:00

brand mysticism. Steve has

1:02

a lot of feathers in his cap, such as being

1:04

the brains behind things like Hendrix Gin

1:07

and Sailor Jerry Rum. And these aren't

1:09

typical brands like we see in bourbon, but

1:12

this book is how to brand almost

1:14

anything. It's a teaser into figuring

1:16

out how to transform an idea into a brand,

1:19

or maybe evolve an existing brand,

1:21

and even some of the best lessons to take

1:23

away from the book. We even dive

1:26

into the brand mysticism behind Pappy

1:28

Van

1:28

Winkle. With that, enjoy this

1:30

week's episode. And now here's Fred Minnick

1:32

with Above the Char. I'm

1:35

Fred Minnick, and this is Above the Char.

1:39

This week's idea comes from John Robertson,

1:42

who writes me on Twitter. Obviously with

1:44

the bourbon boom, there's lots of FOMO with

1:46

people getting in and not being able

1:48

to find things they want. Any other

1:50

spirits categories you'd see that might

1:52

be a good go-to to look into

1:55

now? Why, John, every

1:57

now and then I go off on a little

1:59

romance.

1:59

tangent. I wrote a book called Rum Curious

2:03

and that was kind of a, you know,

2:05

a follow-up to my book, Bourbon Curious, but in

2:08

Rum, of course. I love Rum.

2:10

There's so much value in Rum, but

2:12

there's also so much misunderstanding

2:15

of Rum and what is real Rum and

2:18

how the federal government actually subsidizes

2:20

the likes of Captain Morgan and Bacardi. That's

2:23

a story for another time. But

2:26

you can get so much bang for your

2:28

buck with good quality Rum,

2:30

Foursquare, Appleton, Mount Gay, Hampton,

2:34

here in the United States, Richland

2:36

Rum out of Georgia, privateer

2:39

on the east coast. There's so many great

2:42

Rums that they're

2:44

just not as well explored

2:47

as Bourbon is, but those, when

2:49

you get the taste for Rum and you see how

2:52

great it is, you go in these spells

2:54

of like, you know, you don't want anything

2:55

else. But I think Rum is one

2:58

of those. Another obvious one would

3:00

be Tequila, but you know, the thing about Tequila

3:02

is it's in the same situation as Bourbon

3:05

and you're not finding a lot of

3:07

Tequila fans being excited

3:10

about people coming over Tequila because it's

3:12

as hard to get some of those really rare bottles

3:15

of Tequila as it is Bourbon. And

3:17

in fact, I'd say the Tequila fan is

3:20

pound for pound as enthusiastic as

3:22

the Bourbon fan and the FOMO there is just

3:24

as real. But a couple other

3:26

places you could go that there's not a

3:29

lot of attention on. Calvados

3:32

is a style of brandy

3:35

that's made from apples. It's so

3:37

good. And you

3:38

can find a lot of similarities in flavor profile

3:42

with Bourbon because of the oak.

3:44

And it's going to sound crazy,

3:46

but I think there's a lot of value in Cognac

3:49

as well. Cognac kind of gets

3:51

it gets lost in the sea of conversation

3:55

because it's not as sexy

3:57

as it once was. But I think Cognac has a lot of

6:00

And that's why right now you can get 10% off

6:02

your order with coupon code STICKYBOURBON

6:05

at StickerMountain.com. See the difference

6:07

they can make for you and your business at

6:09

StickerMountain.com using coupon code

6:12

STICKYBOURBON.

6:19

Welcome everybody. We're back with another episode

6:22

of Bourbon Pursuit, the official podcast

6:25

of Bourbon. It's Kenny here today, riding

6:27

solo, but I'm excited to be able to talk about two

6:30

guests that we're going to have on the show. One's a repeat that

6:32

we have talked about in the past. I think

6:34

it was probably during the pandemic is the last time we had

6:36

one of our guests on, but today

6:38

is going to be an exploratory journey

6:42

into brand building. If

6:44

you've listened to the show before, you have known that

6:46

Ryan and I, through our journey, we've been trying to figure

6:48

out our voice. Who are we talking to? Who's

6:51

the consumer? How do we find that

6:53

right person and how do we develop

6:55

an overall strategy?

6:58

The guys that I have on the show today, they've written

7:00

a book about it. They have started to try to figure

7:02

out how do they dissect a lot of these components

7:05

into digestible pieces that people

7:07

can go and start learning and taking from

7:09

and start building stuff on top

7:12

of. Today on the show, I have

7:14

one of our repeat guests is Aaron Goldfarb,

7:17

but also the new ones we have is

7:19

Steven Grass. Both of them are authors

7:22

of the brand new book called Brand Mysticism.

7:24

So fellas,

7:25

welcome to the show.

7:26

Hi, thanks for having us. Yeah, nice to be

7:28

here for sure. So Aaron, I'll

7:31

kind of start with you because the last time we talked,

7:33

I think it was height of the pandemic

7:36

and we had talked about, I didn't remember

7:38

what the topic was and it was,

7:40

it was something, it was a bonus episode just to

7:42

kind of talk about how things are changing the dynamic

7:44

of scopes of things and everything like that. So

7:47

give me an update about

7:49

who you are, where you've came from, what you've been

7:51

doing, what you've been writing about, everything like that

7:53

too. Yeah, I think I was on a

7:56

podcast with several guests

7:58

and my Wi-Fi kept going out. And

8:00

I just, you lost me and it ended

8:03

up being a trick. I got my own episode instead

8:05

a few weeks later when I upped the wifi

8:07

to a faster speed during the pandemic. I

8:10

remember that. That was the, we had

8:12

our big event. I think we had

8:14

close to like 10,000 people tuned in for

8:16

it. You just kept going in and out. So

8:19

it was a, my own brand mysticism

8:21

for myself. Why does this

8:23

author have such bad wifi? But I got

8:26

great wifi now. It's wired into the home,

8:28

so we won't cut out.

8:29

Yeah, the

8:32

book we're going to talk about today was really

8:34

mine and one of Steve's pandemic projects.

8:38

We met in February of 2020 down

8:41

in Philadelphia, down in his offices

8:43

at Quaker City Mercantile. And

8:46

we started talking about, you know, writing a

8:48

book on his life story and

8:50

philosophies for creating brands. And

8:54

we sold it during the pandemic. We wrote it

8:56

during the pandemic. If we're still in

8:58

the pandemic right now, the book just came out. And

9:02

that was really the pandemic project

9:05

for me, but I'm still writing lots of feature

9:08

stories

9:08

about the wonderful world of

9:10

whiskey and all the characters that

9:12

are involved with it. I was actually

9:15

looking and yours was a bonus

9:17

episode that we did do. And it was

9:19

journalism trends in bourbon is what we talked

9:22

about. And if I remember

9:24

correctly, now things have just

9:26

completely changed in regards

9:29

of just how bourbon consumers

9:31

and the way they think is just way

9:34

different than what it was because during the pilot

9:36

of the pandemic, especially when you all were creating this book,

9:39

it was a frenzy period. People were

9:41

buying everything left and right. And

9:43

so from your opinion, how has that

9:45

kind of changed since the pandemic? Now we're a few,

9:47

I don't

9:48

wanna say a few years, we're a couple of years, a little

9:50

bit past it where people are getting a little more open, but

9:53

how has that changed from the journalism

9:56

side of the things of how you've seen the

9:58

consumer change? Well.

9:59

The first few months of the pandemic,

10:02

I thought I was never going to sell a story again, because

10:04

who wants to read about drinking? But

10:07

actually, everyone did want to read about drinking. I had a

10:09

pretty good pandemic, and I think Steve did too,

10:12

sales-wise, with his products, as you mentioned

10:14

earlier. I don't know. I

10:16

think the bourbon world has always very

10:18

much existed online, and

10:21

now even more so. You're seeing brands that

10:23

barely seem to have brick-and-mortar locations

10:26

and exist in this online

10:28

world. You

10:29

need to do more things to stand out. We're

10:32

seeing the infantilization

10:35

of bourbon as flavors become

10:37

more and more childlike.

10:40

A lot of finishing barrels have

10:42

done the same thing that happened in the craft

10:45

beer world, which I also cover, where you're

10:47

wondering if some of these people want to drink bourbon or want

10:49

to drink

10:51

ice cream sundaes. I won't name

10:53

any brands that are involved

10:55

with that kind of thing. Finishes on

10:57

finishes on finish. Yeah, I

10:59

appreciate your brand has remained

11:01

tasting like whiskey. I

11:04

appreciate that. I guess things

11:07

have been moving fast. We're

11:10

in a three-year pandemic. If you started

11:12

a brand at the start of the pandemic, you might have three-year-old

11:14

liquid by now. It seems

11:16

like it's been one long 36-month

11:18

year or so, but a lot of things have

11:21

happened since March of 2020, for

11:23

sure. Oh, for

11:25

sure. I want to take a

11:28

moment to introduce Steve to our audience as

11:30

well. So

11:31

I didn't know much about Steve until I

11:33

actually got hold of Aaron, and he

11:36

sent this message and said, hey, I wrote this book

11:38

about this guy that knows a few things about

11:40

the world of spirits. And

11:42

I looked in research, and the

11:44

first thing that comes up is your Wikipedia entry,

11:46

and it's the guy that started Sailor

11:49

Jelly Rum, Hendrix Gin,

11:51

and I'm like, those are

11:53

massive brands. So I'm really

11:55

excited to bring Steve on the show. So, Steven,

11:58

in a few words, I kind of want to get

11:59

background about sort of how you

12:02

got into the spirits world, how you grew

12:04

up in it and how you got to this point where you

12:06

were creating brands and pushing

12:09

them into really the next journey

12:11

of where they go. Because now they're folded into

12:14

big parent companies as well. Yeah. Um,

12:17

got into spirits through tobacco.

12:20

Seems like a logical journey. Well, I mean,

12:22

it's funny because, uh, I've had my

12:24

agency now for 33 years,

12:26

I think. And, um, for 20 of

12:29

those years, our main client was R.J. Reynolds

12:31

tobacco. And what that did for

12:34

us is it was like being

12:36

paid monopoly money, you know, just like crazy

12:38

cash, but normal

12:41

ad agencies enter award shows and all that stuff,

12:43

but nobody wanted to see our work cause we were

12:45

evil. The syntax,

12:47

the syntax is what it comes down to. Yeah. So

12:50

we took our evil tobacco money and started

12:52

creating our own brands. And one of

12:54

those brands was Sailor Jerry

12:57

and it started as a clothing company, but

12:59

then we created the rum as like a hobby.

13:02

And once you know it, it grew to be the fastest

13:05

growing rum brand in the world. And we

13:07

sold it to grants I think 14 years ago, 2008, when

13:11

I don't know how many years ago that was. The

13:13

one that sparks my mind right there is the, you

13:15

have this, there's a connection

13:17

between lifestyle brand

13:20

and how they intersect. And so

13:23

you come out from a different angle, because I think most

13:25

people today they look at something

13:28

and they go, Oh, I want to start a whiskey brand.

13:30

I want to start a whatever. You didn't

13:32

start off saying I want to start a rum brand.

13:35

It

13:35

just developed into that. So how does, how does

13:37

that

13:38

mindset come in to be able to say we

13:41

can, we can transform this into a whole

13:43

other either revenue stream or just idea

13:45

of product in general?

13:47

Well, yeah, I mean, we always say

13:49

that when we start a brand, it's like, um,

13:52

I don't know. It's like a cosmic explosion

13:54

of, it's like a big bang. Everything happens

13:57

all at once. Right. So,

13:59

but the, It's not a lifestyle.

14:01

It's more like a who's it for, right?

14:04

So with something like Sailor Jerry,

14:06

I didn't know anything about spirits when I

14:08

started it. 1998, I think

14:10

is when the brand came out and it

14:13

was a t-shirt brand. Didn't know anything

14:15

about booze at all. We

14:17

had William Grant and Son as a client and

14:20

we did for them, Glenn

14:22

Fiddick in the US. And

14:24

Grant said, come up with a gin

14:27

and a rum for our portfolio. And

14:29

so we created Hendrix

14:31

Gin

14:33

and Sailor Jerry rum and presented them on the

14:35

same day. But

14:37

Sailor Jerry, I was smart enough to already

14:39

own. I own the IP on that. Oh,

14:41

there you go. Because I thought

14:44

if I turn it into a rum, it might sell more t-shirts.

14:47

And of course it did, obviously, but it was an interesting

14:50

thing because we had very

14:52

simple idea. So we wanted to make

14:54

the punk rock Captain Morgan, right? So 92

14:57

proof for a buck more, you get 92

15:00

proof and it's a much cooler brand. And

15:02

then we, you know, I don't know, I'm from Philly. Philly's

15:04

like a raging shithole right

15:07

now. Always had. I

15:09

love how the honesty comes out right there. It's

15:12

now more than that. We're the Detroit of

15:14

the East Coast, right?

15:15

But there's a lot of

15:18

hard scrabbles, scuzz

15:20

balls with tattoos and beards

15:22

in Philly. Right. I

15:25

mean, for me, it's just who's around. So

15:27

we kind of created a brand for that guy. And

15:29

then it just grew. And the way Sailor Jerry grew

15:32

too, it was really interesting because we

15:34

had no marketing budget. Even

15:36

though we created the brand, like Grant's

15:39

made the rum for us, but we owned it and had

15:41

full creative control. And

15:43

because we had full creative control, they were like, we're

15:45

not putting a dime into this brand. You're

15:48

on your own kid. So what we

15:50

did was we had a guy workforce at the

15:52

time who was really into bands

15:55

and he knew like every punk rock band in

15:57

the world. When they toured, came through

15:59

Philly. he had them come by our store. We had a Sailor

16:02

Jerry store. And they

16:04

would come by and they'd all come

16:06

in and take photos with the bottles in front

16:08

of them. And then we'd load cases

16:11

of rum into the back of their van and they would

16:13

drive to the next city. So this is pretty internet

16:15

too, right? So it's like an early form

16:17

of viral marketing. So

16:19

if you think about like the way we did

16:22

this was very

16:24

grassroots and organic

16:26

and naive. But then

16:28

it's grown for us into a way of doing

16:30

business that is tried and true. It works.

16:33

It doesn't work every time. It works most times, but

16:36

that's what we've kind of put together. And that's what the book's about.

16:38

It's like, it's the story of how we started

16:40

these brands. Hendrix too, a different

16:43

story,

16:44

but very similar in the sense that when we

16:46

created Hendrix, you know, grants didn't

16:48

put any money or support behind it until

16:51

it got some traction. Once it got traction, then it became

16:53

this whole

16:54

global phenomenon. But our

16:56

weird grassroots method of growing things,

16:59

which came out of the tobacco business, because in

17:01

tobacco, you are not legally allowed to do anything.

17:03

So that's how we sort of, we

17:06

always call it the marketing Marine Corps. Because

17:09

you learn how to promote products

17:11

without any promotion. And

17:14

we've taken that practice and

17:16

put it into the world of spirits. Yeah.

17:19

So you basically said, we can't do

17:21

anything with Joe Camel anymore. We've got to

17:23

figure out how we, how do we go beyond this?

17:25

Well, what we did with, with cigarettes, which was really

17:28

interesting is we really pioneered

17:30

a new way of marketing, which is like, you

17:32

know, this sort of underground sampling

17:35

at bars and nightclubs,

17:37

very different form of marketing. So I,

17:39

and then the other big client we had back

17:41

in the day was Puma. Oh yeah. We

17:43

had Puma globally, but when we got

17:45

them, they were a $30 million global account.

17:49

And when we finished with them is when they sold to

17:51

Gucci for $7 billion. But

17:53

again, Puma had no money,

17:56

but they could do anything. So we

17:58

pioneered a lot of techniques too. which we now call

18:01

creative grenades, which were just

18:03

throwing stuff out into the culture and

18:06

seeing what works. And we would like, you know,

18:08

all sorts of crazy stunts that we did with that brand.

18:10

And it worked, worked on a global basis. And then

18:12

we took all that weird stuff

18:14

and put it back into, uh,

18:17

into the world of spirits and the rest is

18:19

history. Well, I'm not going to

18:21

ask you what it's going to cost to take one of those grenades

18:23

for my own brand. I'm just going to sit here and try to leech off

18:25

of free advice as we start going. All right. I

18:30

guess a good question for you though is, is

18:33

do you think today

18:35

you could do with what you

18:37

did with Sarah, Jerry and Hendrix

18:39

from like, do you think there's a possibility

18:42

that you can just take some liquid

18:44

off the market and create a brand and

18:46

have it be a sensational hit?

18:49

Or do you think today is a little bit different than it was

18:52

back when you did that?

18:54

I'm doing it every day, man. Okay.

18:56

Of course you can. But the thing is, if

18:58

you look at our products, we don't

19:01

take liquid off the market. One of

19:03

the core tenants of, of what we think makes

19:05

this a successful brand is

19:08

that liquid needs to be highly differentiated. There

19:10

needs to be something to it or something to your

19:12

story about it

19:14

that makes it different than everything else that's out

19:16

there. So with Hendrix, it's rose and cucumber

19:19

with sailor Jerry, it was 92 proof. You've

19:21

got to have a story and that story

19:23

needs to have a certain authenticity

19:26

and stickiness to it for it to break through.

19:29

And then you need to be consistent and

19:31

relentless and something will, something

19:34

will click because it can't just be

19:36

on celebrity or it can't just be on a

19:39

buying a stock vodka or,

19:41

you know, juice from somewhere and then just putting it in a

19:43

bottle and saying, that's going to work for me because I think

19:45

there needs to be something bigger there.

19:47

You made a really good point because I

19:50

have yet to still find any celebrity

19:53

liquor that could be tequila. It

19:55

could be rum. It could be bourbon that really

19:57

hits home for a lot of.

19:59

purists and people like that.

20:02

Now you had just mentioned that you got to break beyond

20:04

that. I mean, do you still think that like, are

20:06

celebrities still a good point to have in

20:09

this culture or do you think you think that's, that's

20:11

just faux pas now?

20:12

We just did a, um, tell them or do we have

20:14

a great campaign now. It's like celebrity

20:17

free since 1892. Love

20:20

it. Or 1872. I feel like what are yours? It

20:23

sounds like it's old. It's all it matters. It's

20:26

more than the past five years. I mean, and that

20:28

was, that was our digger, Conor McGregor, right? Cause

20:31

he, uh,

20:32

he came out of nowhere as the Irish,

20:34

uh, whiskey, but I'm

20:37

not a fan of celebrity booze,

20:39

not to say I wouldn't work with a celebrity, but if,

20:41

if I ever did, I would, I would make

20:43

him see the light or him or her and see the light of

20:45

that your personality

20:48

is the least reason why someone's going to

20:50

stick with this brand. It's

20:53

true because I'm sure Aaron, you

20:55

review stuff all the time. We've all, I

20:58

think you might even done a, an article

21:00

on the top celebrity. I

21:02

ranked literally every single one

21:04

on the market back in, I think 2020.

21:08

And there were 65 back then. There must be over

21:10

a hundred now. Yeah. Some

21:12

are good. That doesn't necessarily mean

21:14

they're going to be a brand that sticks around for

21:16

a while. I mean, you look at Casamigos,

21:18

George Clooney hasn't owned it in like a decade. And

21:21

that's still the only thing they're writing

21:23

on. They're still using his image. I don't

21:25

know with or without permission. And people

21:27

that don't listen to booze podcasts

21:30

still think they're drinking George Clooney's brand.

21:33

Well, you know, what happens in 20, 30, 50 years

21:35

when George Clooney's long gone and you

21:38

know, no one knows who that is. Uh, how's

21:40

the brand going to stick around? So, uh, yeah,

21:42

I'm generally with Steve on, on that, uh,

21:45

point of view.

21:46

Well, we're all in good company then. That's

21:48

one thing we can all agree on with that. So

21:51

the other question I have is, is how did you all

21:54

come to meet?

21:55

Because you all have some very

21:57

different backgrounds. You're definitely different geographies.

22:00

So how did you all come to meet?

22:02

Aaron, that's your, that's yours to answer. Yeah.

22:05

And Steve hates Brooklyn, so he tries

22:07

to around,

22:10

uh, I think 2017, 2018, you

22:14

know, Steve, Steve's actually a very humble guy

22:16

and until this book, he doesn't really put out that,

22:18

you know, I created all this stuff you,

22:20

you have in your house and in your favorite

22:22

bar. But, uh, you know, he has

22:25

a, uh, a craft distillery in New Hampshire

22:27

called Tamworth. And around 20,

22:29

I

22:31

think it was 2018, he put out this product,

22:33

Oudemusque. It was promoted

22:36

as being made with beaver anus. It was actually

22:38

made with this historical ingredient

22:40

called castorum, which, uh, you know,

22:42

I think pioneers used or something.

22:45

So before you go on, is that

22:47

on brand for Steve or is that, do you think in left

22:49

field? No, no, I think that's on brand.

22:52

Uh,

22:53

yeah, it's my, it's one of my favorite parts

22:55

of him and one of my favorite parts of the book, but, uh, you

22:58

know, I said, you know, who, who was this guy who

23:01

created

23:02

all these hits and I got to talk to

23:04

this guy. We had a great

23:06

long conversation. Um, I'm

23:09

not sure if he realized I was interviewing him because he

23:11

said a lot of, a lot of great

23:13

quotes, uh, which, uh, usually

23:15

people, people save the great quotes for

23:17

private conversations in bars. I

23:19

got in trouble for afterwards. But,

23:23

uh, yeah, I wrote a story for vine pair called, how do you make

23:25

a booze brand go viral? And it was a

23:28

mini 2000 word, uh, type

23:30

thing that would eventually kind of become

23:32

the, uh, basis

23:34

for, for the nucleus for the book. Yeah.

23:36

Right. Exactly. But I'd never met him until that

23:39

meeting in February of 2020. It

23:41

wasn't like we were staying that much in touch. I

23:43

knew his agent Claire. And

23:45

so I came down and, um, yeah,

23:47

that's how, how the book came together.

23:50

But then I guess that's a good segue into

23:52

it. What was the real basis of the book? I

23:54

mean, you talked about the, the idea

23:56

of creating these hits. I mean, is that the

23:58

idea is to create?

23:59

a hit or is it to create a cultural phenomenon?

24:02

Is it to create a long lasting legacy?

24:05

Like what is that premise? Like what's that core?

24:07

All the above.

24:08

Okay, here we go. What's

24:10

interesting about the book is the format

24:13

is not

24:15

traditional in the sense it's not a

24:17

how to marketing book.

24:19

It's a quasi somewhat

24:22

of a memoir, right? It's

24:24

the format is because you have to go through the journey

24:26

of how my creative

24:29

process is so nonlinear and

24:31

so not by

24:33

the book that you have to go through the process

24:36

of how I got there because then

24:38

you understand

24:40

how you can get there. Okay. So

24:43

we go through the beginning part is kind of

24:45

like, you know how this all started

24:47

and the book's broken up into two

24:49

sections before booze and after booze. So

24:52

we go through this, what do you call it? Like a, it's

24:54

a literal mind expanding

24:57

journey, right? Walkabout.

24:58

Walkabout. Yeah, it's a walkabout. It's

25:01

a mystical walkabout. And then we end

25:03

up where we are now and how to,

25:05

there's

25:06

a lot of how to do it yourself, but

25:08

it's not in a literal sense, like step one, step

25:10

two, because it doesn't work that way.

25:12

And the heart of it is if you

25:14

want to create interesting things, you need to

25:17

live an interesting life and

25:19

you need to like turn

25:21

off the social media,

25:23

crack open some old books and actually

25:26

define what you find interesting and

25:28

then use that as the basis as you're jumping off

25:31

point to create something interesting.

25:33

So that's, that's the point. So

25:36

it's kind of like the

25:37

opposite or antithetical to

25:40

modern tick tock lifestyles.

25:43

And that's where the ideas come from. Ideas come from

25:46

a weird place. I think they come from the ether.

25:48

They come from a divine

25:50

realm. And to access those

25:53

ideas, you need to get yourself into

25:55

a,

25:56

into a mode that I

25:58

guess you could use drug to get there, I

26:00

don't. I

26:03

mean, yeah, we're not here to point fingers

26:05

at anybody. However, however you get there is how you get there.

26:07

I mean, I get there by just constant

26:11

curiosity

26:12

and constant, like I also have a

26:15

bit of a photographic memory in terms of

26:17

like, I know

26:18

even like relative page numbers

26:21

of books, things I've read of

26:23

like, I'll tell my staff, if you go and look

26:25

at this book, it's around page 175, you'll

26:28

find this image with a caption and

26:30

I'm always right. I'm like, I know where it is. So

26:33

I feel that those ideas come from a weird

26:36

place and that's the gist of the book.

26:39

It's a mystical stream

26:41

of consciousness. If you

26:42

look at Hendrix, the way Hendrix was

26:44

created, Sir Charles Gordon Grant,

26:48

who was the owner of William Grant

26:50

and Sons, asked me to come to Scotland

26:52

to see his gin palace.

26:54

And I'm thinking, oh, gin palace, that's going

26:56

to be a palace. When I get there and it's a little

26:58

garage with

27:00

these two ancient stills in it,

27:02

the stills are from like 1836 and the only

27:06

one was from the 1860s. And

27:09

I just, my mind immediately goes to Jules

27:11

Verne, right? Jules

27:13

Verne, Victorian. So

27:17

I go and ask him more about how gin is

27:19

made and what the gin basket and the ingredients.

27:21

And I instantly go to apothecary

27:24

and

27:25

poison bottles and stuff like that. So

27:27

it's like, I instantly know what the brand's

27:30

going to be the moment of conception,

27:33

but then it's about building layers

27:35

of meaning and building it out until

27:37

you have something that's fully

27:39

formed. Now,

27:40

what's interesting about Hendrix

27:43

is I created that in

27:45

again, 98, and I still

27:48

have the same creative team on that. So

27:51

we've been working on that together

27:54

for 24, 25, 26 years. I

27:57

don't know how many years.

27:59

We're like the Rolling Stones. I've got the

28:01

same guys and we all, we

28:03

just know what to do at this point.

28:05

It's like an unwritten communication, but

28:08

what makes that brand so amazing

28:11

is the consistency of it.

28:13

And so we can get weirder and weirder

28:15

as the years go on because we're not reinventing

28:18

the wheel. And at this point, we've transcended.

28:20

It's a big global brand. It's

28:22

in every country in the world, very

28:24

successful, but a lot

28:26

of time brands have new brand managers

28:28

that come in. They have a new

28:31

CEO that comes in and they'll ask you, I'm

28:33

going to put my mark on this. Hendrix

28:35

has been able to avoid that because it's

28:38

been so successful and I've kept the same

28:40

team on it that

28:41

everyone's afraid to touch it.

28:43

This is what I find interesting because it gets in

28:45

the mind of somebody. That

28:47

was one of the things I was literally thinking in my head

28:49

as I'm going through here is like, how do I how

28:51

do I get my mindset into something like

28:53

yours? How you break out of something because

28:56

figuring a marketing story

28:58

is not as easy as it seems. There

29:00

is a whole lot of depth that goes

29:03

into it. And it's like, how do you because

29:05

you just want to talk about a brand like you can talk about

29:07

way more than that. How do you bring in stop

29:09

thinking of it? Stop thinking of it as a marketing story.

29:12

Stop thinking of it as a product.

29:15

Think of it as a story. Think of it as

29:17

a tale. That's

29:19

why I always say conceive

29:21

of your brand the way Tolkien conceived of

29:24

Middle-earth.

29:25

And we talk about this in the book. There's

29:27

a great reference, a book called As If, which

29:30

was about the invention of virtual reality

29:32

and the Victorian era and how

29:34

industrialization destroyed enchantment

29:37

in the world. Right? And so

29:39

Jules Verne was I think the first to

29:42

create imaginary worlds with detailed

29:44

maps and ship logs and all

29:46

these things for things that didn't really exist. But it

29:48

enchanted people who

29:51

were distraught over their industrial malaise

29:54

and took them and carry them into a new

29:56

place. And that's exactly what we do with our

29:59

brands. We enchant. to you and

30:01

they become a fully formed,

30:03

I don't want to say the word lifestyle because lifestyle implies

30:06

like a fashion brand. It's more like

30:08

it's a world and

30:10

it's the same dynamic that works with Star Wars

30:12

or Marvel but I

30:14

hate that shit, right? It's more like it's

30:17

more literary, it's more literary and

30:19

it's why it's same. We talk a lot in the book

30:21

about like

30:22

like Led Zeppelin or David Bowie

30:25

who were incredible storytellers but look

30:27

at Bowie, he created these whole personas

30:30

and just when you he took it to a certain

30:32

point with a persona he'd scrap

30:34

Ziggy and start over as a thin white Duke but

30:37

that thin white Duke had this whole other persona

30:39

in depth to it and that's how

30:42

we look at brands and it takes persistence,

30:45

it takes consistency, authenticity

30:48

and it takes you knowing

30:50

what you believe yourself.

30:53

So I guess another thing is how does somebody comes

30:55

at that and they go this is challenging. It's

30:57

challenging to sit there and think how do I reimagine

30:59

my brand

31:00

or myself 10

31:03

times over

31:05

because is this something that

31:07

you had mentioned TikTok lifestyle a little bit

31:09

ago? I mean is it because you're

31:11

constantly fighting that where people only have a

31:14

four second attention span but how are

31:16

you able to sit there and say okay

31:19

I've got an idea for this brand but I need

31:21

to constantly evolve

31:23

it to either the people that

31:25

are the consumers or is it just because

31:27

that's just the nature people need something new. People

31:29

have something new that need to latch on to.

31:37

Customers are rushing to your store. Do

31:39

you have a point of sale system you can trust or is it

31:43

a real POS?

31:44

You need Shopify for retail.

31:46

Shopify POS is your command center for

31:49

your retail store. From accepting payments

31:51

to managing inventory, Shopify has everything

31:53

you need to sell in person

31:55

and with Shopify you get a powerhouse selling

31:57

partner that effortlessly unites your

31:59

in-person and online sales into one

32:01

source of truth. Track every sale across

32:03

your business in one place and know exactly

32:06

what's in stock. Connect with customers inline

32:09

and online. Shopify helps you

32:11

drive store traffic with plug and play tools built

32:13

for marketing campaigns from TikTok to Instagram

32:15

and beyond. You can get hardware that fits

32:17

your business. Take payments by smartphone,

32:20

transform your tablet into a point of sale system, or

32:22

use Shopify's POS Go mobile device for

32:25

a battle-tested solution. Plus, Shopify's

32:27

award-winning 24-7 help is there to

32:30

support your success every step of the way.

32:32

Do retail right with Shopify.

32:34

Sign up for $1 per month trial period at

32:37

shopify.com slash bourbon, all

32:39

lowercase, and go to shopify.com

32:41

slash bourbon to take your retail business to

32:43

the next level today.

32:45

Shopify.com slash bourbon.

32:48

If you're anything like me, then you

32:50

can't get enough about bourbon. And that's why

32:52

I'm a subscriber to Bourbon Plus Magazine.

32:55

Bourbon Plus is a quarterly publication that tells

32:57

the stories from the heart of bourbon, the

33:00

farmers who grow the grain, the distillers who labor over the process,

33:03

and the people like you and me who raise

33:05

their glasses to celebrate it all.

33:07

Subscribe to Bourbon Plus Magazine today at

33:09

bourbonplus.com, that's P-L-U-S.com,

33:12

and use code PURSUIT at checkout for $5

33:15

off your subscription.

33:19

How are you able to sit there

33:22

and say,

33:23

okay,

33:25

I've got an idea for this brand, but I need

33:27

to constantly evolve

33:29

it to either

33:31

the people that are the consumers, or is it

33:33

just because that's just the nature? People need something

33:35

new. People have something new that need to latch onto.

33:38

You ignore that, you ignore it. You

33:40

just ignore it, you just do your own thing? You do

33:42

your own thing. In the book, we call

33:44

it the onion method, okay? The

33:47

onion method is layer upon

33:50

layer of meaning. We always say

33:52

most brands, when you peel off the first couple

33:54

layers of the onion, there's nothing there. It's

33:58

empty. With our brands, you. off the first

34:00

couple layers, it gets more interesting as you pull

34:02

down the layers. Same with any

34:06

great book or character

34:08

study. The only thing I would

34:10

say about social media or metaverse,

34:15

those are just forms of media.

34:17

They don't replace what

34:20

the brand is. They don't replace

34:22

the meaning of the idea. And

34:24

I think that if you get caught up in what a trend

34:27

is or what people are doing right now, I

34:31

could find ways to

34:34

adapt my brands to which

34:36

we do. I have a whole team that does Instagram

34:39

and all that stuff. But it doesn't change

34:41

the idea that

34:43

you take the core brand idea and

34:45

you apply it to that medium as opposed

34:47

to changing the way you do

34:49

things to be young

34:52

and hip. Yeah,

34:53

totally. And I love the

34:56

idea of the onions and the layers

34:58

and how you get beyond that. As somebody

35:00

that's a consumer, for them to be able

35:02

to approach that and go beyond those

35:04

layers, are you getting them to that

35:06

point? Because is it just consumers

35:09

are generally curious that

35:11

they want to know more about what they're drinking

35:13

or what they're partaking in? Is this

35:16

a generational thing? Because we

35:18

can all see something from that outside layer.

35:21

That's the easy part. But how do you

35:23

guide them through that journey that says we want

35:25

you to go beyond that outside layer?

35:28

Well, I think you need to design your brand so it

35:30

works on many levels at once. And

35:32

you need to design it for the stupidest

35:35

person in the room and the smartest person

35:37

that ever lived. Okay? That's

35:40

quite the range. Well, because the stupidest person

35:42

in the room needs to look at it and say, oh,

35:45

that looks cool.

35:46

Right? That's your like,

35:48

you know, for your Homer Simpson. Oh,

35:51

right. But then the most

35:53

intelligent person is the

35:55

one who tried it once and says,

35:57

oh, that's actually really interesting. What

36:00

else do you got? What else do you got? What else do

36:02

you got? And they become your

36:04

super fans. And the thing that you wanna do,

36:07

and what we've been able to do very well with, with

36:09

Hendrix and with Sailor Jerry, all these brands,

36:12

is brands become hot

36:14

because it's actually quite easy

36:16

to make something buzzy, right? You

36:20

make it buzzy, but the buzz, people

36:22

go on to the next thing, unless

36:24

you've got something new to show, unless

36:27

you've got some new story or some new twist.

36:30

So if you wanna grow your brand,

36:33

like, you know, make it like a, to a million cases

36:35

one day, what's your plan beyond

36:37

the buzz? What's your plan beyond the initial, the

36:40

initial round of enthusiasm? So

36:43

that's when it gets hard. How do

36:45

you keep reinventing yourself? And if you look at something

36:47

like Hendrix, what's amazing is even

36:50

our retail displays get

36:52

tons of social media posts. And

36:55

we took 20 years to come out with new Hendrix variants.

36:59

But now that we have, some of those variants

37:01

are bigger than the

37:02

fourth biggest gin brand overall.

37:05

I mean, they've grown to hundreds

37:08

of thousands of cases. It's amazing.

37:11

But we waited 20 years to do that, but when we did

37:13

it, each one of those variants is

37:16

like a summer blockbuster movie

37:18

opening. And we've created the Marvel

37:20

universe for the world of gin. No,

37:23

it's fantastic. It's fantastic to be able to see that. And

37:26

so Aaron, there's a question for you as you're going

37:28

through and coordinating. And so Steve, what

37:30

are some of those great lessons

37:33

that you've learned off of this? Cause I'm sure as you were

37:35

sitting there listening to Steve talk, you're

37:38

like a sponge trying to digest it all.

37:40

What are some of those big things that you took away?

37:42

Yeah, absolutely. You know, I thought, well,

37:45

I'm gonna get paid to get like a branding

37:48

MBA from Steve. Pretty

37:50

good deal. I figured we could do that in 40 minutes right

37:53

here. That's what I'm going for. But

37:55

you're not getting paid. I got paid. True

37:59

story.

38:00

All this stuff has now been ingrained in me. I forget

38:02

when it was like stuff I'd never heard before.

38:05

I like in, you know, he's talking about digging

38:07

into layers. And he

38:10

likes to liken it too, and I do too,

38:12

to actual pop culture. How

38:14

many times have you

38:16

watched a movie or a great TV series,

38:18

and then you go online and read about it? Maybe you go

38:20

on message boards, and it

38:22

just starts adding layers. Think about the

38:24

last scene of the Sopranos,

38:27

the famous scene where it cuts out, spoiler

38:30

alert. And people might

38:32

have liked it or disliked it, but I think a lot of people,

38:34

once they started going online and debating

38:36

it and talking about it, you

38:39

know, it started adding layers and mystery.

38:41

And now it's probably the most famous

38:43

scene in television history. Or

38:45

movies and

38:46

whatnot.

38:47

It's one thing with Star Wars, why people keep

38:49

watching it a million times, even if, like

38:51

Steve, I'm not a huge fan of the series,

38:54

you know, there's all these characters, there's

38:56

all these things. Now they're building TV shows

38:58

and there's books and what's canon and what's

39:01

not canon, but there's always something

39:03

new to discover for these

39:05

people. We talk about in the book how

39:08

Tolkien spent like 20 years

39:10

creating maps and a fake

39:12

dialogue before he ever wrote The Lord of the Rings,

39:15

because he wanted to have that much richness

39:18

in the book and by

39:20

the time it was released. And that's why 100 years

39:22

later, there's still geeks that cannot

39:24

get enough of this, because, you know, it's

39:26

something you can devote your life to studying

39:29

and rereading and debating and all

39:31

that sort of stuff. And, you know, if

39:33

you create an interesting brand, I think

39:35

you can do the same thing. You know, I don't

39:37

think Julian Van Winkle was thinking about

39:39

this when he created Pappy, but he inadvertently

39:42

kind of did create something that people

39:44

are going to debate and talk about and theorize

39:47

about for the rest of time. And,

39:50

you know, you see that with lots of booze brands

39:52

too.

39:53

I love that you brought up Pappy. I

39:56

kind of want to take into that brand mysticism.

39:59

How do you fit in? Pappy

40:01

into brand mysticism.

40:03

I would call that accidental brand mysticism.

40:06

Right. Aaron, you could talk to that. You

40:08

know more about that brand than I do.

40:10

Yeah. I mean, you know, from what I understand,

40:12

Julian was just a guy trying to scrape by,

40:15

sell off some glut era, overaged

40:17

whiskey and, and, you know, keep his shirt

40:20

and raise a family. He did an invert

40:22

league sells some of the oldest bourbon

40:24

ever. He put it in a cognac

40:27

bottle, which is not something anyone had ever done

40:29

before. He put his grandpa

40:31

on the label, which.

40:33

Not again, none of

40:35

it makes any sense. Right. That's why, that's

40:38

why part of the mystique to it is

40:40

that

40:41

I'm sure he put it in the cognac bottle because that's what he had

40:43

in front of him.

40:44

Right. That's from what I understand. That's all he could source.

40:47

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

40:48

And he put his grandpa on it because he couldn't

40:51

probably couldn't pay for artwork, right? Right.

40:53

So it's kind of like, but that's how a great

40:55

band might work or that's how like

40:58

a really great indie movie that

41:01

some guy made a movie's first movie and it's like

41:03

this breakout hit and it's like, how did you do

41:05

that? And it's like similar stories. So

41:07

that I think pappies is one of those stories

41:09

where it's like, what was the first to do it

41:12

and the first to take hold like that.

41:15

And I, there's a big part of, you

41:17

know, the first in wins a

41:19

lot of times. So the thing about Hendricks

41:21

as well, it's like,

41:23

we inadvertently created the craft

41:25

gin

41:26

category. We didn't know that.

41:28

Uh, when we started it, but we created something

41:30

that was like a not a London dry in an

41:33

opaque bottle, the wrong side. I mean,

41:35

the wrong dimensions, the whole thing. It's

41:37

like very similar.

41:40

We tend to say we make things ugly on

41:42

purpose.

41:43

And what that means is they're authentic to

41:46

what it is they're, they're about

41:49

as opposed to

41:50

trying to be

41:52

good design to win an award because

41:54

an award is based on what's

41:57

cool right now. Whereas if you do it right.

41:59

You do it for the centuries. So

42:02

good example is the original

42:04

Sailor Jerry Vowel.

42:06

It looked like it was on your dad's basement

42:09

bar from 1973.

42:11

Ugly, terrible, terrible design, right?

42:14

But it rang

42:16

very true as authentic. We're

42:19

part owners of Narragansett Beer, Rhode Island.

42:22

And we've grown that, I think we're

42:25

the 30th biggest brewer in the country, which is,

42:27

you know, significant since we're not having

42:29

any major affiliations.

42:31

But it's great because it's the, it's the

42:33

New England working class, ugly

42:36

beer, but it's, you

42:38

know, it works and it works. And

42:41

it, but it's that way on purpose. There's a real trick

42:43

to, you

42:45

know, and for years it was the hipster beer

42:48

in New York outpacing paps,

42:50

right? Why? Well, cause

42:53

we didn't, we never played to the hipsters. We

42:55

did. We were, we

42:56

were always authentic to the

42:59

Rhode Island, every man, you know?

43:01

Yeah. This has been great because I think

43:03

this is, well, A,

43:05

it's been able to explore another aspect in

43:08

Avenue, Mr. Goldfarb, understanding

43:10

more about you and stuff like that. But you know, for,

43:13

for bringing Steve on the show, I think this is, this

43:15

is really incredible and really valuable. I'm

43:18

sure there's a lot of people out there that are listeners that

43:20

are either in the marketing world or in the

43:22

creative design world and stuff like that. And

43:24

they look at something that you've built and, and

43:26

they can probably relate to a lot of the

43:29

same aspects and the same

43:31

ideologies that you're, you're preaching

43:33

here because there is, there is something

43:35

there. You've been able to, to

43:38

capture a particular audience and,

43:40

and whether that's through, as

43:42

you were talking about, just Papi, just accidental

43:45

or it's, it's intentional. There's something

43:47

there that can capture people and

43:49

you figure out what is that, what is that driver? What's

43:52

it going to be? I think at the very beginning, Steve, you said it

43:55

is it all starts with something

43:57

that is going to be different. That's going

43:59

to take people.

43:59

in. You know, you'd mentioned with the

44:02

rum being a dollar better, say 93 points or

44:04

whatever, 93 proof would have

44:06

better, with the gin just having the

44:08

different botanicals. There's got to be something there that is

44:11

going to make a different product that just

44:13

makes it stand out. Well, and then bourbon,

44:15

it's a little different, right? Because bourbon is bourbon.

44:17

And

44:18

you guys were joking when we started

44:20

about, you know, birthday cake flavored

44:23

bourbon and whatever. I don't know if we were recording while

44:25

we were talking about that, but. Yeah, it's

44:27

a thing. But the thing is, so

44:30

we always joke in the world

44:32

of American whiskey, it's all beards

44:34

and barrels, right? And

44:37

there's ways to break out of that with your story.

44:40

Don't give me a fake story. And I

44:43

said, tie back to something, something

44:45

with the liquid. But it's also you can,

44:48

you

44:48

know, it's interesting with

44:50

when

44:50

you're building a portfolio for

44:53

your brand, is there different something

44:55

else you can do besides, you know, barrel

44:57

finishes? Is there something else you can do? And

45:00

that might not be your main brand, but it might be something

45:02

that shines a halo on your brand. And

45:05

that makes your brand famous. And then people

45:08

sort of come to the main brand as your as a

45:10

go to. So there's a lot of tricks within the

45:12

bourbon world. It doesn't,

45:14

if it's not new to world, it's you

45:16

can take your existing brand and

45:19

come up with it. You know, we also do Guinness,

45:22

we created the open gate brewery in

45:24

first in Dublin, and then we created the

45:27

same one in America, in Baltimore. And

45:30

we just opened one in Chicago. And

45:32

that was to create an innovation strategy for

45:34

Guinness,

45:35

because they always had a problem with,

45:38

you know, it's a global beer market diversified.

45:41

And people had different tastes.

45:44

Guinness used to be the most interesting thing in the bar.

45:46

And increasingly, they weren't even there.

45:48

Because, you know, people had moved on to

45:50

the American craft revolution.

45:52

So we created the open gate brewery using old

45:55

recipes from the 1800s from Guinness

45:57

is own log books. And then it expanded

45:59

now to the

45:59

Guinness has an amazing portfolio

46:02

of different beers they do, but what it does is

46:04

it fuels the main brand and Guinness

46:06

has been up year over year since we've been working with

46:08

them for the last eight years. So you can innovate

46:11

on an existing brand and Hey

46:13

man, all your listeners. I'm

46:16

for hire. There you go. That's

46:20

the best way to put it. I'm expensive,

46:22

but I'm not. At

46:25

least he's honest with it. Right. At least there's, there's

46:27

truth in branding right there. Yeah. I'm a little

46:30

cheaper, but I'll write a book for you if you need one.

46:34

Well, that's, that's awesome. Fellas. So,

46:36

uh, give one more pitch for the book,

46:38

Aaron, about where people can find it, where I can know more

46:40

about it and everything like that. I got a copy.

46:44

Brand mysticism. Oh, let's see. Yeah.

46:48

Cultivate creativity and intoxicate

46:50

your audience. I always forget the subtitle. Um,

46:52

it's a really fun read. It's a fun

46:54

read, even if you don't ever want to start a brand,

46:57

even if you're not starting a booze brand, if

46:59

you're opening a cupcake shop or a t-shirt line

47:01

or something, I think you'll learn valuable lessons

47:03

in here. And it's just an enjoyable read. You'll

47:05

learn a lot about really the last 23

47:08

years of, um, of the booze world,

47:11

Steve's lived through it. And you know, there

47:13

is a great chapter on cigarettes,

47:14

which I really like and which hasn't got enough attention.

47:17

Whole lot of, whole lot of swear words

47:19

too. And, and beautiful art designed

47:21

by, by Steve's team.

47:23

It reads like a Quentin Tarantino script. Yeah.

47:27

I love it. Yeah. It's

47:29

like, it's the kill bill to booze world. Yeah. I'm

47:32

working on kill bill too right now. Yeah. Okay. Love

47:36

it. And Steve, the people want to know more about you,

47:39

where they can follow you, how

47:41

they can hire you. How would they do that too? Well,

47:43

um, my company is called Quaker city mercantile.

47:47

Look it up. You've contacted me through

47:49

the website. I am on social media,

47:51

even though I bitch about it. My distillery

47:53

in New Hampshire is called Tamworth Distilling, which you

47:55

should look it up because we're doing some really interesting things

47:58

up there. Fantastic. Well,

48:00

fellas, I want to say thank you again for coming on the show. This

48:02

has been a real honor to Aaron

48:05

have you back on the show, Steve, to formally

48:07

meet you. And I think that

48:09

we've uncovered a lot of cool things. I think that both

48:12

of you shared some amazing insight

48:14

into what it is to just think outside of

48:16

what people look at on the label and they're like,

48:19

Oh, cool, this has got some raised lettering. Or this

48:21

was made from some

48:23

grandpappy's fictitious Mash

48:25

bill. I think there's so much

48:28

more to unravel and wrap inside

48:30

of how do you build a brand and how do you tell

48:32

that story? And as Steve had mentioned earlier,

48:34

how do you peel away those layers of

48:36

the onion? How do you create depth into something? And

48:38

it's just

48:39

beyond what you just see on the outside. So you

48:42

all just really kind of captured a lot of that.

48:44

So I would encourage everybody out there to go and

48:47

try the book, give it a read, definitely

48:49

go and see if you can build your own brand, whether it

48:51

is cupcakes or cigarettes. We'll see what it is.

48:54

Great flavored cigarettes. All

48:57

right. I mean, why not? There's,

49:00

there's a market for everything. Actually, right. We

49:03

got in trouble for doing that.

49:04

I was there when

49:06

that happened. That's in the next book. All

49:09

right. There you go. Wait for volume

49:11

two. All right.

49:12

Well guys, hang on here for a second,

49:14

but make sure you follow those guys. Make sure you follow bourbon

49:16

pursuit, wherever you get your podcasts. If you do like

49:19

it, share it with a friend. It's the best way to be able to give

49:21

the best word of mouth marketing and

49:24

actually give us a follow as well. But with that,

49:26

cheers everybody. We'll see you next week.