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with Crashplan. Hello

1:39

and welcome back to Beyond the

1:42

To Do List, a podcast about productivity.

1:44

I'm Eric Fisher, your host as we

1:46

discuss the true goal of productivity, living

1:49

a more meaningful life. This

1:51

week I'm excited to share a conversation with you

1:53

that I had with Matt Abrahams. He

1:55

is the host of the Think Fast

1:57

Talk Smart podcast and the author

2:00

I'm the book. Think faster,

2:02

talk smarter, and speak without

2:04

fear. He's had over fifteen

2:06

years of experience at Stanford

2:08

Graduate School of Business, and

2:11

in this conversation, we're talking

2:13

about quick thinking communication. Were.

2:15

Talking about mastering spontaneous speaking

2:17

as he breaks down his

2:19

six step process to improve

2:22

your spontaneous speaking skills, managing

2:24

speaking anxiety, and how to

2:26

deliver even though you may

2:28

have anxiety about speaking in

2:30

public. The. Nuances of small

2:32

talk. And How small talk is

2:35

more than just filler conversation. Matt

2:37

redefines it as a skill that

2:39

actually paves the way to deeper,

2:41

more significant interactions, and we dive

2:43

into that as well. And

2:45

then also we framing mistakes

2:47

and anxiety to learn from

2:50

them and seen them as

2:52

opportunities for growth and development.

2:54

Also, if you're new to the show

2:56

or if you've been listening for a

2:59

while, you will notice we've had a

3:01

number of Communication Seemed episodes which I

3:03

have put into a podcast playlist on

3:05

Spotify which I will link to in

3:08

the show notes and I will be

3:10

including this one in there as well.

3:12

So if you enjoy this episode there

3:14

are further episodes to dive into on

3:17

the topic of communication and how that

3:19

will affect and optimize your productivity. But

3:21

for now let's get into this conversation

3:23

with Matt. Abrahams. With

3:27

this week is is my privilege to

3:30

welcome to the show Mad Abrahams Matt

3:32

Welcome to beyond the to Do List.

3:34

I. am thrilled to be here with

3:37

your eric and i love the idea

3:39

of going beyond the to do is

3:41

my whole life has to do with

3:43

so i love the fact that we're

3:45

going to go beyond that today well

3:47

i can reciprocate and say i love

3:49

the fact that your podcast is called

3:51

since fast talk smart and i hope

3:54

to try to hit the center of

3:56

the venn diagram of being able to

3:58

think fast and talk smart sometimes it's

4:00

talk smartish and sometimes it's

4:02

think at a reasonable pace but

4:04

again hopefully you know hitting that

4:06

center of the diagram and doing

4:08

both those things. You also have

4:10

a book Think Faster, Talk Smarter

4:12

based off the book, How to

4:14

Speak Successfully when you're put on

4:16

the spot. And we've been

4:19

talking a lot about communication on this show

4:21

in recent episodes. In fact, I'm going to

4:23

create a playlist, my first podcast playlist of

4:25

episodes of the show. It will

4:27

be part of it and it's going to be based on communication. I

4:30

won't bog you down with all the different

4:32

episodes but just to say that anybody is

4:34

looking to improve their communication for productivity's sake.

4:37

May even be listening to that, we're

4:39

doing time traveling here. Someone may

4:41

be listening literally to that playlist right now. But

4:44

I love the idea of speaking

4:47

successfully, communicating ideas and

4:49

thoughts especially when you're

4:51

put on the spot.

4:53

How did you land on that because I know

4:55

that's not the only focus of

4:58

your podcast. So absolutely,

5:00

it's just one of the areas that

5:02

we cover on the podcast. We cover

5:04

all areas communication related. So I have

5:06

two answers to your question. One is

5:08

very personal. My last name

5:10

is Abrahams, A-B. I went first always

5:12

through school. So I was always being

5:15

put on the spot. The teachers would

5:17

always sit me front row, front seat.

5:20

Whenever they had to go around the room, I

5:22

always started. So I personally have always had this

5:24

experience of being put on the spot. That

5:27

said, about nine years ago, the deans

5:29

at the Stanford Business School where I've

5:31

been for about 15 years asked

5:34

me to help them solve a problem. Our

5:36

very smart students, MBA students, were struggling with

5:38

cold calling. You know when the teacher looks

5:40

at you and says, what do you think?

5:43

They were really struggling to give an answer even though

5:46

they knew the answer. And they asked, they said, is

5:48

the communication guy, can you help? So

5:50

I did a deep dive

5:52

into multiple fields of study

5:54

psychology, anthropology, sociology, neuroscience, even

5:56

improvisation. And from that developed

5:59

a methodology that now Now all of our

6:01

Stanford MBA students have the opportunity to take

6:03

within the first three weeks of coming to

6:05

join us on campus. And we

6:07

have seen a significant improvement in their ability to

6:09

respond to cold calls, their confidence in their ability

6:12

to do it has gone up. And this has

6:14

been a topic on Think Fast Talk Smart, the

6:16

podcast I host that a lot of people ask

6:18

about. They're like, how do I respond when my

6:20

boss asks me a question and we're in the

6:23

elevator and I have to answer. It's

6:25

something that I've come to from multiple angles.

6:27

And I think all of us could relate

6:29

to how challenging this is. Yeah,

6:31

we've all found ourselves to be put on

6:33

the spot, not just in a podcast interview,

6:36

but in a workplace setting or

6:38

in a relational setting or randomly

6:40

in a networking setting. And

6:43

I think you would say it

6:45

goes beyond just being prepared for

6:47

any and every situation or solution.

6:50

You can't just hold all that. I mean, David

6:52

Allen's famous for saying your brain's for having ideas,

6:54

not holding them. It's not about

6:56

having those ideas and then holding them all

6:58

the time and ready at a moment's notice

7:00

with your business card or

7:03

your elevator pitch, as people in business call

7:05

it. How do you propose

7:08

that we are ready at

7:10

a moment's notice? Yeah,

7:12

well, I want to take a step back and

7:14

first say that we can all get better at

7:16

this. There are many of us who walk around

7:18

thinking like, I'm born this way. I don't have

7:21

the gift of gab. This is not for me.

7:23

In fact, we can all get better at our

7:25

spontaneous speaking in the moment speaking. How do we

7:27

do it? We do it like an athlete. We

7:29

train, we do drills, we change our mindset. And

7:32

then when we're in the moment, we have that

7:34

to fall back on. So it's not about memorizing.

7:36

It's not about having certain things you do at

7:38

certain times. It's really about just

7:41

preparing yourself. And the book and

7:43

the process I teach my students and the

7:45

people I coach is a six step process.

7:47

And the first four steps have to do

7:49

with mindset and approach. And the last two

7:51

have to do with messaging and how we

7:53

focus what we say. A

7:55

lot of it has to do with assessing

7:58

the moment you're in. Eventually,

8:00

it's communication triage. I

8:02

like to call it pattern recognition, but you're

8:05

exactly right. Think faster to me is all

8:07

about pattern recognition. I've seen this pattern before. I've

8:09

drilled this pattern before. I'm going to go down

8:12

this path. I've thought about this theme. I

8:14

really first came to think about this. I

8:17

was interviewing somebody who is

8:19

a visual note taker. Have you ever been

8:21

in one of those meetings where somebody draws

8:23

the notes instead of writing some words? Yeah.

8:26

I've been to a number of conferences where there's

8:28

somebody in the audience who's doing those for every

8:30

single talk. You find them if you're following the

8:33

hashtag for the event or something, and you see

8:35

them, and you're blown away by them. Yeah,

8:37

it is amazing the work they do. I

8:39

was fascinated how quickly she could do what

8:41

she did. We talked about it, and it

8:44

turns out it's all about pattern recognition. Before

8:46

she does her work, she'll talk to people

8:48

who'll be at the meetings. She looks at

8:50

the agenda. She's thinking about how these different

8:52

ideas go together. When she's in the midst

8:54

of hearing it in real time, she's

8:56

just relying on those connections and pathways

8:59

that she's thought about. Of course, she

9:01

changes and branches out as needed. That

9:04

really got me thinking about the notion

9:06

of think faster. It's all about the

9:08

preparing to be spontaneous, which sounds counterintuitive,

9:10

but it's actually really helped. Okay,

9:13

that makes sense. When

9:15

you say pattern recognition, I instantly went

9:17

to, air quotes olden days,

9:19

when I was growing up and first

9:22

hearing about computer programming, and they were

9:24

trying to explain it in ways that

9:26

would make sense to people. It was

9:28

these if this, then that, or if

9:30

this, now this flow chart, where is

9:32

the answer this? Yes, no, and you'd

9:35

go down a different path. Is it

9:37

somewhat like that, but instantaneous? You

9:39

wear those neural pathways enough,

9:42

practicing, that you can go through them faster?

9:45

That's correct. That's really the last part

9:47

of what you said is exactly right. The if

9:49

then is not so much. I don't think you

9:51

have to look more holistically at what's going on,

9:53

but it's about recognizing what's going

9:55

on and then committing in that moment

9:57

to follow the path that you've decided.

10:00

right? You might say, oh, there are multiple paths. I'm

10:02

going to commit to this one and move forward on

10:04

it. A lot of this has to

10:06

do with the mindset and approach. Many of us

10:08

see these circumstances as threats and challenges. And so

10:10

we have to reframe that and see it as

10:12

an opportunity. You know, if you were to tell

10:14

most of your listeners that, hey, at the end

10:16

of your next meeting, we're going to ask you

10:18

lots of questions, most people would not say, oh,

10:21

great, I'm so excited. They'd be really concerned. If

10:23

we can reframe that and see it as an

10:25

opportunity, that opens up our mind to what

10:28

could happen. And then we commit and we go

10:30

down that path. So one of the mindset shifts

10:32

we have to have is around just seeing these

10:34

things as opportunities. Which may

10:36

be hard for some people. Well, regardless

10:38

of if you're an introvert or an

10:41

extrovert, we can go there later where

10:43

we talk about how different people and

10:45

how they're different coming to these steps

10:48

will interact with them differently. But for now,

10:50

you said there were four and then two

10:52

others. What are those first four? Like pattern

10:54

recognition is in there somewhere. The

10:57

first step in the methodology is really

10:59

to manage our anxiety. Most of us

11:01

get nervous in high stakes

11:03

communication, regardless of if they're planned or

11:06

if they're spontaneous. So we

11:08

have to learn to manage anxiety. And the

11:10

book offers advice. The very first book I

11:12

wrote was called Speaking Up Without Freaking Out.

11:15

It's all about managing anxiety. The anxiety around

11:17

speaking is ubiquitous. We find

11:19

it across all cultures, across most

11:21

ages. So we need to

11:23

learn to manage that anxiety. The

11:25

next step is to focus our attention

11:27

on really connecting with our audience, being

11:29

in service of the audience. Many of

11:32

us get locked up in our head

11:34

about trying to do our communication right.

11:36

We want to give the right answer,

11:38

the best feedback, the most interesting in

11:40

small talk. When in fact, it's

11:43

really about connecting. When we focus

11:45

on perfection, we Just

11:47

allocate our cognitive bandwidth. We're focusing on

11:50

judging and evaluating or if we've memorized

11:52

comparing to the script we have. And

11:54

That actually reduces the cognitive bandwidth that

11:57

we can use to focus on what

11:59

we're seeing. Playing in the moment So I like to

12:01

say. Focus. On connection not

12:03

perfection and that can really help

12:05

you. Get over that hump

12:07

of I've gotta do it right?

12:10

The. Third step: We've already talked about see

12:12

these as opportunities, not threats and then

12:14

the fourth step and mind has to

12:16

do with listening. To. Be

12:18

an effective communicator planned or spontaneous,

12:20

we have to listen. Well.

12:22

We have to understand what's needed in the

12:24

moment. Most. Of us Listen just

12:27

for the top line. We need to listen

12:29

to the bottom line. So if we do,

12:31

those forceps that prepares has to be in

12:33

the moment ready to respond so we can

12:36

look for those patterns we see and then

12:38

react accordingly. The. Last two steps to

12:40

the methodology have to do with message saying.

12:43

We need to make sure we

12:45

package up our information in a

12:47

logical way. We need you stream

12:49

works and structures. if I just

12:51

list information, It's very hard for

12:53

people to process our brains are not

12:55

wired for list so I do a

12:57

lot of work helping people find structures

12:59

which provide road maps to help you

13:01

get from where you are where you

13:03

need to be in that spontaneous speaking

13:05

situation. And. In the last part, I

13:07

called the F Word of Communications, not the Ninety

13:10

One. He. Had focus. Many.

13:12

Of us. In the moment We take our audiences

13:14

on a journey of our discovery of what we

13:17

want to say. We say way more than we

13:19

need to. So. Focus is all

13:21

about being concise in we're. So.

13:23

Those are the six steps you can play. at. Any

13:26

one of those steps, you don't have to go through

13:28

them. And and the order I mention. any of those

13:30

steps will get you closer to your goal. Now.

13:32

to me as i'm hearing you

13:34

describe those first for and then

13:36

the other two it feels like

13:38

the first for ours the thinking

13:40

faster components and the last two

13:43

are the gotten smarter that's exactly

13:45

right they overlap of course but

13:47

yes that's that's exactly how it

13:49

divides yeah so there's a difference

13:51

some overlap but it almost makes

13:53

me think it's slightly waited on

13:55

the preparation the being prepared for

13:57

in the moment in other words

13:59

it's focus on being present recognizing

14:01

the patterns, etc. because that's

14:03

way more important and harnessing

14:05

that anxiety and using it

14:07

correctly is one key component

14:09

and honestly one of the

14:11

biggest hang-ups people have when

14:13

any of these spontaneous speaking

14:15

large or small scale-wise opportunities

14:17

comes up. Absolutely, absolutely.

14:19

It can be very challenging for people to

14:22

get themselves to this place where they can

14:24

do this but once they do they can

14:26

see tremendous benefit. So I

14:28

know that you've done a lot of

14:31

research and you have a ton of

14:33

stories. I'm curious, you've got some science-based

14:35

strategies for managing anxiety. Can you start

14:37

to delve into some of that again?

14:40

Some of those initial like even just

14:42

the mention of, by the way, right

14:45

now in five minutes I need you

14:47

to stand up and speak in this

14:49

meeting or in this impromptu manner will

14:51

freak people out. That's somewhat based on

14:53

your previous book but obviously that carries

14:56

right on into this topic. So what

14:58

are some of the ways that

15:00

those people can get beyond themselves

15:03

or again like I said maybe

15:05

harness and use that anxiety in

15:07

this situation? Right,

15:10

so when it comes to anxiety looms

15:12

large most people report feeling anxiety in

15:14

high-stakes situations and in fact you know

15:16

that we have some surveys that say

15:18

upwards of 70 to 80 percent of

15:21

people experience anxiety. So this

15:23

is a big deal and it can

15:25

preclude many of us from sharing our

15:27

thoughts and really contributing fully to the

15:29

interactions we have. When it comes

15:31

to managing anxiety and I use the word manage

15:34

I don't think we can ever truly overcome our

15:36

anxiety. I think there will always exist circumstances that

15:38

will make us nervous. So it's

15:40

really about managing it. We have to

15:42

take a two-pronged approach, symptoms and sources.

15:44

We have to manage the symptoms that

15:46

we experience. It's our rapid

15:48

heart rate, it's the speaking fast,

15:50

the shakiness, the sweating and the

15:52

blushing. Those are symptoms but then there

15:55

are also sources, things that initiate and exacerbate our anxiety.

15:57

So let me give you a quick example of what

15:59

we can do. you one technique for each and

16:01

I'm happy to dive deeper into these. The

16:04

single best thing that tends to work

16:06

for the most people is deep belly

16:08

breathing. If you've ever done

16:10

Tai Chi or yoga where you take a

16:13

deep belly breath filling your lower abdomen, this

16:15

can really help you to feel

16:17

more relaxed and calm. It slows down your heart

16:20

rate, which slows down your breathing rate, which slows

16:22

down your speaking rate. They all stack on top

16:24

of each other. So deep belly breaths. The cool

16:26

thing is you only need to take two or

16:28

three of these and you want

16:30

to just make sure that your exhale is longer

16:33

than your inhale. So the rule of thumb, or

16:35

if you'll allow me, the rule of lung is

16:37

you want your exhale to be twice as long

16:39

as your inhale. If you do that, you can

16:41

manage a majority of your symptoms, not all. Now

16:44

in terms of sources, things that

16:46

make you nervous, we've already talked

16:48

about focusing on perfection, seeing things

16:50

as opportunities, not threats, but

16:52

a big thing that makes us nervous is

16:54

the goal we're trying to achieve. Whenever

16:57

we communicate, we have a goal. So

16:59

my students want to get a good grade. The

17:01

entrepreneurs I coach, they want to get funding. You

17:03

might want a project that you're running to get

17:05

support. So what's making us

17:08

nervous is the potential of that

17:10

not happening. So it is a

17:12

potential negative future outcome that's making

17:14

us nervous. So we need to

17:16

short circuit that. And the only way to short circuit

17:18

fear about the future is to be in the present

17:20

moment. And you can do that in lots of ways.

17:23

Walk around the building, have an intimate conversation with somebody.

17:25

Listen to a song or a playlist like Athletes.

17:28

Count backwards from 100 by a

17:30

challenging number like 17. All

17:33

of those put you in the present

17:35

moment, which short circuit your fear about

17:37

the future. So managing anxiety is all

17:40

about managing symptoms and managing sources. And

17:42

if you do that, you will be

17:44

more confident. What are

17:46

some examples or is there like a particular

17:48

story that really illustrates like in a way

17:50

that someone would be like shocked

17:52

to find out that, you know, somebody

17:54

in some moment needed to do these

17:56

things you just were talking about. And

17:59

again, not. overcome but we're able

18:01

to manage it and then excel at

18:03

that opportunity. Well, I'll tell a

18:05

story from my own life that happened earlier and then

18:07

I can share countless stories of people I've coached and

18:09

taught. So when I was 14, freshman

18:12

in high school, my high school English teacher essentially

18:14

made me go to a speech tournament. Again, it

18:16

was because of my last name. We all had

18:18

to go around and talk and I went first

18:21

and he said, okay, you're it. And the only

18:23

advice he gave me is give a talk on

18:25

something you're passionate about. So when I

18:27

was 14, I had just started studying martial arts.

18:29

I was really passionate about it still to this

18:32

day I am. And so I started a 10

18:34

minute speech with a karate kick.

18:37

I was so nervous that

18:39

I forgot to put on my special karate

18:41

pants that have a little extra room. I

18:43

ripped my pants from zipper to belt buckle

18:45

in the first 10 seconds of a 10

18:47

minute speech doing a karate kick trying to

18:49

get people's attention and boy did I get

18:52

their attention. But because of my

18:54

martial arts training, I had learned that when

18:56

you're under stress when somebody that you know

18:58

might literally be attacking you to take

19:00

some deep breaths and to ground yourself to

19:02

really feel your body instead of getting in

19:04

your head racing. And I did that and

19:06

I was able to get through that speech

19:08

actually either because I did a good job

19:11

or people just felt pity for me. I actually won

19:13

that tournament. It's not about the

19:15

winning. It's about the doing in that

19:17

moment of maximum embarrassment and anxiety. I

19:20

grounded myself. I took some deep breaths and I

19:22

was actually able to get through it. And

19:24

a lot of people I've coached and taught

19:26

have had similar experiences where they'll use a

19:28

technique of some sort. Maybe it's grounding, maybe

19:31

it's breathing, whatever and they can

19:33

get through these challenging situations. That's

19:35

a great story. Well, it is in retrospect. I'll

19:37

tell you it was not great in the moment.

19:39

Yes. In the moment, no. And you

19:41

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21:06

T T As a to be aware

21:08

that com to learn more. One

21:15

of the other's existence. That anxiety, the way

21:17

you frame is that you may use have

21:19

a fear for a future outcome. And I

21:21

think there are a number of other possibilities

21:23

when it comes to that's like a full

21:25

path. For example, like business that I can't

21:28

get up there And it's not that I

21:30

can't say or do. The thing is that

21:32

oh no, I might say the wrong. saying.

21:34

how do we deal with that? Yeah, so

21:36

the fear of saying something wrong is really

21:38

plays into this future mindset. So.

21:41

First. Implies that there's a right

21:43

way to say something in there is

21:45

no right way to communicate their better

21:47

ways in worse ways. but there is

21:49

no one right way. And.

21:51

So by releasing that pressure to

21:53

say it right really helps reassess.

21:56

Your. i see this play on a lot in

21:58

my non native speaking I have a lot

22:01

of students who English is not their first language and

22:03

they get locked up and really

22:06

anxious around, am I saying it

22:08

right? Now clearly there's

22:10

some grammatical challenges that they have

22:12

to address, but it's really about

22:14

just conveying your feelings and your

22:16

ideas. And if you misspeak,

22:19

if it doesn't come out right, if the slides

22:21

you were intending to show don't work, you

22:24

can still get your point across. And

22:26

in fact, if you focus on just

22:28

transmitting the information, it helps. In

22:32

the book I talk about how I

22:34

start my MBA classes. I start by

22:36

telling my students in this class we

22:38

are going to learn to maximize mediocrity.

22:41

You should see my students' chins drop. Nobody

22:44

has ever told them to just be mediocre. But

22:47

here's the logic. If I strive

22:49

just to connect, just to get the idea across,

22:51

not to do it perfectly, not to do it

22:53

great, I actually have full

22:55

mental resources to do it really well.

22:58

So at the end of my first

23:00

class, after we go through some activities

23:02

and exercise and have some discussion, I

23:04

conclude by saying maximize mediocrity so you

23:06

can achieve communication greatness. It

23:09

is by taking that pressure off of ourselves to

23:11

do it right, to not make a mistake, that

23:13

we actually free ourselves up to do it

23:16

well. So there's a lot

23:18

we can do around reframing that can

23:20

actually take the burden and the bite

23:22

out of our fear of making a

23:24

mistake. What are some of those

23:26

techniques that we can start to use to do

23:28

that reframing? Yeah, so I

23:30

have several in the book actually and

23:32

I appreciate you asking. There's several. One

23:34

is to adopt a mindset that comes

23:37

from Carol Dweck's work on growth mindset.

23:39

A growth mindset is one where you see that

23:41

you can actually take on new skills and new

23:44

experiences to improve. A fixed mindset is I am

23:46

the way I am. One

23:48

part of what Carol Dweck talks about

23:50

is this notion of not yet. So

23:53

when I have a struggle, a challenge, or something doesn't

23:55

go the way I want, I don't say, oh, I'll

23:57

never have it or I'm just not that kind of

23:59

person. I say to myself, not

24:01

yet. I can learn it. I

24:03

can develop that still. I can practice. So, when

24:05

something doesn't go the way you want, first thing

24:08

you need to do is simply say, not yet.

24:10

Not that I'm not good enough. Not that I

24:12

don't have. It's just not yet. Similarly,

24:15

we can reframe how

24:17

we see mistakes. Many

24:19

of us see mistakes as bad. Yet, we

24:21

all intuitively know you learn through mistakes. If

24:24

you've ever seen a young child learn anything,

24:26

they learn a lot through making mistakes. I

24:29

have a different way of framing mistakes.

24:31

Instead of seeing them as things that

24:33

go wrong, see them as missed takes.

24:36

If you know anything about film or television

24:38

production, directors will often ask

24:40

the actors to do multiple takes of a scene. Do

24:42

it this way, then do it that way. So, do

24:45

it seated versus do it standing. Look at the camera.

24:47

Don't look at the camera. No one

24:49

of these takes is bad or wrong.

24:51

They're simply different. So, if I

24:53

do something, if I communicate something and it

24:56

doesn't go the way I want, I simply

24:58

mentally say to myself, take two. Do it

25:00

again or say it through a story or

25:02

ask a question to get somebody to bring

25:05

the same content out. There are lots

25:07

of ways to get to the end goal

25:09

of what your communication is striving. No

25:12

one way is right. Maybe some are better

25:14

than others. But if something doesn't go the

25:16

way you want, just take two with

25:18

that clapboard in your mind and move on

25:20

to the next step. So, not

25:22

yet missed takes are two of

25:25

many ways to reframe those circumstances.

25:27

That's great. Yeah, I've had some

25:30

of those moments in some of

25:32

these live interactive, you know, impromptu

25:35

settings. So, if we're thinking about this, I'm

25:37

thinking about it this way. There's people who,

25:39

again, that initial, they'll freeze as soon as

25:41

they hear the opportunity is being given to

25:43

them and they don't see it as an

25:46

opportunity. And we've talked about that. And now

25:48

we're talking about reframing. The other piece that

25:50

I think might freeze people up but also

25:52

moves past, you know, it say you don't

25:54

have a lot of anxiety. You say you've

25:56

done really great with reframing and you've had a lot

25:59

of practice. You see. still have to get to the point

26:01

where, oh, what is it I'm actually

26:03

going to say or talk about? What

26:05

are the ideas I'm going to convey? What

26:07

is it that I'm going to present? In

26:10

other words, what is the signal to the noise

26:12

that I need to deliver? The

26:14

talking smarter portion of it.

26:17

Yeah. So I'm curious, what are some of

26:19

those ways that, okay, you just suddenly found

26:21

out that you're going to be doing this.

26:24

How do you gather, process,

26:27

curate, and present information

26:30

in a fast way? Yeah.

26:34

So again, I think it comes back to

26:36

this notion of structure. And a structure is

26:38

nothing more than a logical connection of ideas,

26:40

a beginning, a middle, and an end. And

26:44

rather than list and itemize things, I

26:46

can put things in a structure to

26:48

help people. And so when I'm in

26:50

that moment and I'm asked a question

26:52

or I'm asked to give feedback, if

26:55

I know I have a structure that I've

26:57

practiced with a lot before, it's like an

26:59

athlete who executes a play or it's like

27:01

a chef who leverages a recipe. It

27:04

gets you to the end point more quickly.

27:06

And in the case of structure more logically

27:08

and in a more connected way. Let me

27:10

give you an example. If

27:12

you have ever watched a television advertisement,

27:14

you have seen a structure, the structure

27:16

of problem-solution benefit. You start

27:18

with a problem, issue, or challenge, then the

27:21

service or product that the company offers shows

27:23

you how it fixes that problem or addresses

27:25

that challenge. And then they tell you the

27:27

benefits. That's a structure. I can give you

27:29

a list of all the things my product

27:31

does and all of its features. That's

27:34

going to be hard for you to remember. But if I put

27:36

it in the structure, it helps. So

27:38

in the book, the second part of the book, and when I

27:40

do my teaching and coaching, I teach

27:42

people different structures that they then practice

27:44

to help them if in

27:47

that moment they're put on the spot,

27:49

they know what one potential way of

27:51

addressing it. I'm not saying you always have to

27:53

answer a question in this way or always give

27:55

feedback in this way or always introduce yourself this

27:57

way. But you know you have a tool

27:59

that you can... use because in that moment where

28:01

you're like, oh my goodness, I have to respond.

28:04

You know how you can respond and now all

28:06

you have to think about is what you say

28:08

in that response. And you

28:11

mentioned the word recipe. I'm wondering there's got

28:13

to be multiple recipes, right? We don't just

28:15

eat the same thing every day, you know,

28:17

Taco Tuesday, etc. So we

28:19

have all these different variations of recipes.

28:21

I'm sure in your research, you found

28:23

different people are doing different things to

28:25

walk through that last portion. What are

28:27

some examples there? Yeah,

28:29

so there are many different structures and I

28:31

encourage everybody to find a structure or two

28:33

that works for them. And so,

28:35

you know, I can itemize a few

28:37

structures for you that tend to work

28:39

really well. There's comparison, contrast, conclusion. I

28:41

compare two things. I contrast them. I

28:43

give you my conclusion. I've talked about

28:46

problem, solution, benefit, past, present,

28:48

future. Many people have

28:50

heard of the STAR technique, Situation

28:52

Task Analysis Results. These are

28:54

all different types of structures. I

28:57

had a student recently who was in seminary. He

28:59

was learning to be a preacher and he taught

29:01

me a structure. He learned four sermons.

29:04

It's me, we, the, we, me. So you

29:06

start with something that's individual to you. You

29:09

talk about how it applies to the congregation,

29:11

how your higher deity or spirit that you

29:13

believe in addresses it, then it comes back

29:15

down to the congregation and ultimately what it

29:18

means for you. These are

29:20

just structures that you can follow that

29:22

can really help you, as I

29:24

mentioned and you highlighted, complete

29:26

the recipe. You know the different steps. You know

29:28

the ingredients you need. It just makes it much

29:30

easier. And again, as any cook

29:33

will tell you, sometimes you go off book, you've

29:35

cooked the recipe so much, you don't need to

29:37

even look at it again. That's

29:39

right. That's right. The more familiar and then

29:42

you can add your own spice, both literally

29:44

and figuratively to the communication. Once

29:46

it becomes part of your nature, then

29:49

you can start playing with it. You

29:51

know, a musician that we love to

29:53

listen to when they play, they put

29:55

life into the music. Well, they

29:58

can only do that because they know... the

30:00

music and we can do the same thing

30:02

as we get more comfortable with this. I

30:05

love it. Obviously, we're talking

30:07

a lot about more

30:09

business-oriented or work-related scenarios

30:11

we may find ourselves in where we suddenly

30:13

have to perform at

30:16

a level that we maybe didn't think

30:18

we were ready for. But

30:20

this goes back down into like relational

30:22

things too or for example, networking opportunities,

30:24

making small talk. How would you apply

30:26

that to those scenarios? Yeah,

30:29

so I've got a lot to say about small talk.

30:31

First and foremost is we need to rebrand it. I

30:33

can use your help on this. Small

30:35

talk gets a bad rap. I

30:37

think big important things happen during

30:39

small talk. We connect, we learn

30:41

about ourselves and others, we set

30:43

up future collaborations. In fact,

30:46

I challenge everybody to think about your true

30:48

friendship network, not the people online that you

30:50

never talked to, but your true friendship networks.

30:53

How many of them did you get to know

30:55

through initial small talk? At least

30:57

some significant proportion. Good stuff happens during

30:59

small talk. Our challenge is

31:01

we approach it wrong. We see

31:03

the goal is wrong. We want to be the

31:06

most interesting person in the room. We want people

31:08

to want to listen to us. I

31:10

interviewed on my podcast a fascinating person.

31:12

Her name is Rachel Greenwald. She's an

31:14

academic and a professional matchmaker.

31:16

Go figure that out. She

31:19

has lots of interesting advice when it

31:22

comes to small talk. I love this

31:24

line. She said, in small talk, it's

31:26

about being interested, not interesting. In

31:29

other words, it's about curiosity, asking questions,

31:31

being open versus coming in and just

31:33

trying to ace that conversation. It's less

31:35

like a tennis match and more like

31:37

playing hacky sack where you want to

31:39

work together to keep the ball off

31:42

the ground. Taking

31:44

that different approach can really open it up.

31:46

It means you ask questions. It means you

31:48

point out things in the environment and get

31:50

a conversation started. It's not

31:52

anything more complicated than that. Yeah.

31:56

To me, that sounds like small talk is

31:58

just like intro conversation or introductory. There's

32:00

definitely a better term. I'd love to help figure that

32:02

out. Yeah. So the

32:04

term small talk encompasses any

32:07

sort of unscripted conversations that

32:09

we have that and it

32:11

tends to have a negative connotation with it.

32:14

You know, when you analyze conversations,

32:16

of which small talk is a

32:18

form of conversation, small talk tends

32:20

to lead to more connected, disclosive

32:23

conversations. So it's really

32:25

about how much I'm revealing about myself,

32:27

how congruent those revelations are and the

32:29

depth with which we are actually connecting.

32:32

So small talk is sort of the

32:34

entryway into that, but it is

32:36

something in and of itself. If you go

32:38

to a cocktail party with lots of people,

32:40

you sort of flit around and talk and

32:43

never really get deeper into those other types

32:45

of conversations. When I hear the

32:47

word small talk, I often think of one of

32:49

my favorite movies in a particular moment in it.

32:51

It's the first day of the

32:53

movie Groundhog Day. Actually, technically it's the

32:55

second day, but it's the first instance

32:57

of that Groundhog Day. Bill Murray is

33:00

playing the character Phil. He comes downstairs,

33:02

the hostess of the bed and breakfast

33:04

starts to talk to him about

33:07

the weather, not knowing he is

33:09

a weatherman and he starts to

33:11

go into his spiel of weatherman-ness

33:14

and giving a forecast and saying

33:16

all this stuff. And then he says to

33:18

her, oh, I'm sorry, did you really want

33:21

to talk about the weather or were you

33:23

just making chit chat? And she freezes and

33:25

then she says, just chit chat. And that's

33:28

what I think we inadvertently fall into when

33:30

it comes to those small talk moments. But

33:32

in her instance, what we're wanting

33:34

to do is actually stumble across,

33:36

oh, what are those resonant

33:39

conversational pieces? Like if I can

33:41

discover he is a

33:43

weatherman, then I can probe him and ask

33:45

him like and really get to

33:48

know him in other words. It's the intentionality

33:50

behind it, right? Right. I

33:52

mean, in many ways, small talk is like

33:54

flirtation, right? In flirtation, we're trying to sense

33:57

and determine interest and we're curious.

34:00

were trying to figure things out,

34:02

but flirtation is associated with romantic

34:04

relationships. Small talk is simply

34:06

a tool of making invitations to continue

34:08

a conversation to find those nuggets you're

34:11

talking about. And one of

34:13

the most powerful tools to do

34:15

that, my mother-in-law had a black

34:17

belt in small talk and her

34:19

superpower was three simple words, tell

34:21

me more. When somebody would

34:23

say something, she'd stop, she'd digest what they

34:25

said and she'd say, tell me more. And

34:28

that gave the person a license, a permission.

34:30

She demonstrated interest, she got deeper in more

34:32

interesting information. So it allowed her to make

34:35

those discoveries that you're talking about by simply

34:37

seating the floor to the other person to

34:39

share even more. Yeah, I've

34:41

noticed recently, probably within the last

34:43

six months or so, people will

34:46

often, instead of saying, tell me

34:48

more, they'll say, say more as

34:50

an instigator there. One of

34:52

the other parallel kind of statements that I've seen

34:54

or heard or observed, similar to tell me more,

34:57

is try to do a drill down, like

34:59

a one level drill down on that. If

35:01

someone's telling a story or they've relayed something,

35:04

you say something along the lines of, oh,

35:07

how did that make you feel? Or, oh

35:09

man, what was that moment like? Just

35:12

drill one level down. What's

35:14

that one level below the

35:16

surface of that story that this person's telling

35:19

to get a little bit deeper

35:21

without feeling like it's not a blunt object

35:23

where it's like, so tell me how, and

35:25

then insert traumatizing story here, felt.

35:28

I think all of those are great

35:31

ways to say or do exactly the

35:33

same thing. Another tool is to

35:35

share in your experience, you might say, if I were

35:37

in that situation, I would have felt this way. How

35:39

did you feel? So you actually connect yourself to it,

35:41

which even shows more interest and

35:44

more intent. I like what you just

35:46

said there. I think one of the things I try to

35:48

be careful of, and give me your opinion on this, is

35:51

to not jump in and say, oh, well,

35:53

I've got this whole other story that's

35:56

very similar, and then pull the attention

35:58

onto you. hint

36:00

at it a little bit. Oh yeah, I've

36:02

had a little bit of a similar experience

36:04

to that, and then flip it back on

36:06

them and kind of show your attention to

36:08

them. You're pulling it out of them, in

36:10

other words, in a nice way. Yeah,

36:13

so conversations are nothing but turn taking.

36:15

We take turns in when we converse,

36:17

unless you were raised in my family

36:19

where everybody talks at once, which is

36:21

it's just hard to hear. And there

36:23

are two types of turns we take.

36:25

We take supporting turns, where I encourage

36:27

you to keep saying what you're saying.

36:29

And then I take switching turns, which

36:31

switch the topic. And what's interesting

36:33

is this research says to be

36:36

more liked, to build more trust,

36:38

you want to have more supporting

36:40

turns than switching turns. But you

36:42

can't do too many, because if you do

36:44

too many supporting turns, it looks like you're

36:47

trying to deflect and don't want to share

36:49

anything. And obviously, if you do too

36:51

many switching turns, you look selfish and

36:53

egotistical. So the research says you want

36:55

to keep about two-thirds of your communication

36:58

turns to be supportive and one-third to

37:00

be switching. And then the magic is

37:02

which ones and where to do it.

37:04

But you're exactly right. Sometimes doing a

37:07

slice switch or hinting at a switch

37:09

actually deepens the connection more than just

37:11

saying, oh, tell me more. So

37:14

it's this intricate dance that we do, but

37:16

the tools are between supporting and switching. Okay,

37:19

one more scenario here before we

37:21

close up shop a little bit.

37:23

We've talked small talk, we've talked

37:25

all those other set of things.

37:27

What about you're impromptu in a

37:29

much smaller scale, asked to speak

37:31

about a specific thing. And that

37:33

thing is they're asking you for

37:35

feedback. How does that change the

37:37

scenario for you? Yeah, so

37:40

I have a lot to say about feedback.

37:42

Feedback is critical. I like to,

37:44

and you've heard people say this, but

37:46

feedback is really a gift.

37:49

And to me, if you're giving a gift, you want

37:51

to tailor it to the person that you're giving it

37:53

to, and you want them to appreciate it. So

37:56

we need to see feedback as

37:58

an opportunity to problem solve. I'm

38:00

inviting you to collaborate with me. I'm not just

38:02

dumping it on you. So when

38:04

it comes to giving feedback, the first thing we

38:06

need to think about, and I'm a big disciple,

38:08

by the way, of Kim Scott, a radical candor.

38:10

I think her approach to feedback makes a lot

38:13

of sense. Kim's actually a friend, she's a neighbor.

38:15

We occasionally go for walks together, and I really

38:17

like her approach. One of the

38:19

things she will tell you is you always

38:21

wanna be giving feedback, positive, neutral, and constructive.

38:23

Because if I have something really constructive to

38:26

give you, if it's surrounded

38:28

by all this other feedback I've been giving

38:30

you consistently, it really changes the

38:32

tone and tenor of the feedback. If I only

38:34

wait to give you constructive feedback, that feels very

38:37

differently. So if I'm in the moment, put

38:39

on the spot to give you feedback, I

38:41

wanna make sure to take into account all of the

38:44

other feedback I might have given you in the past.

38:47

Again, I rely on the structure. I

38:49

have a very quick to use structure

38:51

for giving feedback. It's three questions, what,

38:54

so what, now what. Let's

38:56

imagine, Eric, you and I come out of a meeting, and

38:58

you say, Matt, how did that go? Feedback,

39:01

right? So I could say, I thought it

39:03

went really well except when you talked about

39:05

the implementation plan. You spoke quickly and didn't

39:08

include as much information as you did

39:10

elsewhere in your talk. That's the what.

39:13

When you speak quickly and not

39:15

give as much information, people might think

39:17

you're nervous and not as prepared in

39:19

that area. That's the so what. Next

39:22

time you present this, I'd like you

39:24

to slow down and include these two

39:27

extra pieces of information. That's

39:29

my now what. So by simply

39:31

answering what, so what, now

39:33

what, I can in that moment give

39:36

you feedback that's intelligible, you

39:38

can understand it, is

39:40

specific, and it's a gift for

39:42

you because it's tailored to your needs. So just

39:44

by knowing what's so what, now what, I ask

39:46

those three questions, I can give you some good

39:48

feedback. And there you go, that's again, kind

39:50

of one of those recipes that we

39:52

were talking about earlier that allows you

39:54

to not overthink it, not get in

39:56

your own way and not self-sabotage getting

39:58

all hung up. on that and

40:01

just provide clear, helpful feedback.

40:03

Exactly. Love it. There's

40:06

so much more, one, in

40:08

the book that is titled Think Faster,

40:10

Talk Smarter, How to Speak Successfully When

40:12

You're Put on the Spot, and that's

40:15

what we've been talking about here mostly.

40:17

We stayed on topic of the book

40:19

specifically, but then you branch out and

40:21

go all other places, kinda like we

40:23

try to do with the topic of

40:25

productivity, go all the different directions you

40:27

can go with your podcast, Think Fast,

40:30

Talk Smart. Where can people find the

40:32

book and the podcast and more of

40:34

the work you're doing? Yes,

40:36

so thank you. Most everything

40:38

can be found on mattabrahams.com.

40:41

I have resources there, access to

40:43

lots of information. The podcast exists

40:46

wherever you find podcasts, including YouTube,

40:49

and the book can be purchased anywhere you go.

40:51

I'm a huge user of LinkedIn. If any of

40:53

your listeners are on LinkedIn and would like to

40:55

connect, happy to connect there. The

40:58

bottom line is this, we can all get

41:00

better at our communication. It takes three things,

41:02

repetition, reflection, and feedback. If you

41:05

give yourself a little space to do

41:07

those three things, your communication will improve,

41:09

your relationships will deepen, and your ideas

41:11

will expand. Awesome, Matt,

41:13

thank you so much for sharing

41:15

your time and your knowledge, and

41:18

I know it's gonna make a big impact, thank you so

41:20

much. Thank you, Eric, it was a true

41:22

pleasure. Well,

41:25

that's another podcast crossed off your listening

41:27

to-do list. I hope that you enjoyed

41:30

talking about talking or conversation with

41:32

Matt Abrahams. This is one of my

41:34

favorite episodes I've done in a while.

41:36

I like the idea of thinking fast

41:39

and talking smart or smarter, and I

41:41

really hope that you found some beneficial

41:43

information for not just thinking on the

41:45

fly and thinking faster, but also, again,

41:47

talking smarter. We all find ourselves in

41:49

those moments where we need to deliver

41:52

in a one-on-one or one-to-many, in fact,

41:54

I just did a quick spontaneous-type

41:56

speaking thing for a family member

41:58

that I. to go to a

42:01

memorial service for and was able to craft

42:03

something that was under five minutes telling a

42:05

few different stories that connected and it really

42:07

hit home because there was lots of laughs

42:09

and lots of well

42:11

clapping and I felt that it was

42:13

a pretty good success. So if you

42:15

found this episode helpful one you can

42:17

find more episodes like this by subscribing

42:19

to the show. Two you can find

42:21

the Spotify playlist for more episodes of

42:23

this show on the topic

42:26

of communication in the show notes for

42:28

this episode. And three would

42:30

you mind sharing it? Share this

42:32

episode and that playlist to someone you

42:35

know needs to hear it that needs

42:37

to and wants to improve their communication

42:39

and benefit their productivity in that way.

42:42

Thank you so much for sharing. Thanks

42:44

again for listening and I'll see you next

42:47

episode.