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Better with Crash Planned. Hello

1:40

and. Welcome back to beyond the

1:42

To Do list a podcast about

1:44

productivity. I'm Eric Fisher your host

1:46

as we discuss the true goal

1:48

of productivity living a more meaningful

1:50

life. And. In this conversation this

1:53

week I am talking with Carlos

1:55

Alvarez. Yeah, he's the author of

1:57

the book The Rules of Persuasion.

2:00

the world's greatest communicators convince, inspire,

2:02

lead, and sometimes deceive, we're not

2:04

going to lean into that deceive

2:07

part, but we'll investigate it a

2:09

little bit just to make sure

2:12

you're aware of that possibility. But

2:14

as you might have guessed, we

2:16

are talking about communication and more

2:19

specifically, persuasion. We're going to understand

2:21

that persuasion is about forming a

2:24

community with common beliefs, not

2:26

just about changing minds, telling people they

2:28

should think a certain way. We're

2:31

going to consider Aristotle's three persuasion

2:33

factors and dive into each of

2:35

those three, as well as

2:37

sub-topics in those three. We're

2:40

also going to distinguish between persuasion

2:42

and manipulation or coercion, dive into

2:44

ethics a little bit there. All

2:47

the while, we're going to recognize that the

2:49

role of language is potent, and it's a

2:51

tool that can be used for both good

2:54

and harm, and I think you'll

2:56

know the difference. I'm going to

2:58

get out of the way and

3:00

just say enjoy this conversation with

3:02

Carlos Alvaranga. Well,

3:05

this week, it is my privilege to

3:07

welcome to the show, Carlos Alvaranga. Carlos,

3:09

welcome to Beyond the To-Do List. Carlos,

3:12

thank you for being on. It's a pleasure to be here with you

3:14

and your listeners. Thank you so much. Persuade

3:18

me as to the

3:20

power of persuasion. A lot of people

3:22

hear that word and they think, oh

3:24

no, you're going to try and hypnotize

3:26

me with words into doing something I

3:28

don't necessarily want to do, but you

3:30

want me to do. That's

3:33

probably a popular misconception you've probably heard

3:35

or something along those lines. You've

3:37

been studying this, or I should say

3:39

you've been studying ancient Greek and other

3:42

things along those lines. You've got a

3:44

backbone and a great experience with this,

3:46

but what is your definition of persuasion

3:48

and even the power behind that? Yes,

3:51

it's an interesting place to start the

3:53

conversation because I think that... I'll tell

3:56

you why I wrote the book, and that was a few

3:58

years ago. volunteering with

4:00

non-profit. I was coaching, I still

4:03

coach CEOs and founders of non-profits and I

4:05

was looking for a book on persuasion. So

4:07

I ordered the two or three from Amazon,

4:10

but when I read them, I realized they weren't

4:12

about persuasion. They were about influence

4:14

or manipulation or negotiation or psychology. And

4:16

I wasn't looking for that. I was

4:18

looking for a book about the word

4:20

persuasion and what does it really mean?

4:22

Because to me persuasion is getting

4:25

someone to willingly believe

4:27

something. And so I couldn't

4:29

find it. So I went back to

4:31

a book I'd read in college called

4:33

The Rhetoric by the philosopher Aristotle, which

4:36

is about persuasion and I began there.

4:38

And so my book is an attempt

4:40

to explain the Aristelian model

4:42

and to update it with

4:45

examples and in case studies from

4:47

our era. So persuasion for

4:49

Aristotle is to find the following way. It

4:52

is a demonstration that something is true or appears

4:54

to be true. Full stop. That's

4:56

it. All right. Now, why is it important? And

4:58

what do I think about this? I

5:00

don't think it's about getting people to do something.

5:02

What I explain to people is that persuasion is

5:04

more fundamental than that. And the

5:07

example I use is imagine that you

5:09

love, I don't know, Jaws. Jaws is

5:11

just crazy about Jaws. It's just the

5:13

best movie ever made. It's

5:15

amazing. The shark, Brody, the fray,

5:17

like the mayor of the town.

5:20

It's just so wonderful. And it's still

5:22

never equaled Jaws. Now, Eun

5:25

and I meet at an airport and it

5:27

comes up that I also think Jaws is

5:29

the greatest movie ever made. As

5:31

that is it, you and I become a community.

5:34

We're bound by our love of Jaws,

5:36

right? And this is what persuasion

5:38

is about. We as human beings

5:41

have a fundamental desire that people

5:43

believe what we believe. That they

5:45

love what we love. That they censure what

5:47

we censure. And so that is what it is

5:49

to me and why it's so

5:51

important because it is a basic human need

5:54

to have others believe what we

5:56

believe. So it's not trying

5:58

to get somebody to do something

6:00

per se or to believe

6:02

something, it's more get them

6:05

to consider something that you

6:07

consider to be the truth. It's

6:10

getting them to believe something and so the

6:12

definition is that I don't have to change

6:15

your mind. People don't persuade truth or the

6:17

appearance of truth persuade. So as I tell

6:19

people I work with, don't worry about

6:21

how are you going to change someone's opinion. Worry

6:24

about what you want them to believe and

6:27

have that very clear in your mind and

6:29

so that is the first step to

6:31

being a persuasive communicator and in his

6:34

book, I also says there are only

6:36

three things that can persuade someone. It

6:38

is the character of the person

6:40

speaking or the communicator and that

6:42

could be a person, a school, a government, an

6:44

institution, the arguments presented,

6:46

things like evidence, logic, proofs,

6:49

witnesses, etc. and then

6:51

the emotion that the audience feels as

6:53

they listen. That's it and

6:55

so in my book I explained that he

6:58

was talking about oral communication in his

7:00

day and age but I believe that

7:02

it applies to anything. I've all checked

7:04

on social media. I talk about film,

7:07

hip-hop, art, paintings, literature, in China, in

7:10

antiquity, in present day, the

7:12

rules work the same way

7:14

wherever and whenever you are.

7:16

Well and so speaking of that, the

7:18

title is The Rules of Persuasion, How

7:21

the World's Greatest Communicators

7:23

Convince, Inspire, Lead, and

7:26

Sometimes Deceive and that's part of it

7:28

and I think that's the thing is

7:30

I think again people hear that word,

7:32

you know people get stuck in semantics

7:34

sometimes. They get stuck on though a

7:36

word didn't usually or always mean a

7:38

certain thing or have a certain connotation

7:40

to it. For example, one that I

7:42

find often that has trickiness or

7:45

stickiness with this is the word manipulate

7:47

which is somewhat akin to the

7:49

word persuade. Well I can pick something up. I'm

7:51

going to do this right now. I'm picking up

7:53

the cover to my webcam. It's about the size

7:55

of a quarter and I magnetically put it on

7:57

there to block when I'm not doing anything. Right

7:59

Right now, I am holding it, but when I move it around

8:02

in my hand, I am manipulating it.

8:04

I am moving it. I

8:06

am telling it what to do. I am manipulating

8:08

it. But some people would say, well, you

8:11

know, the word manipulate means you're forcing... That's

8:14

the difference between manipulation and

8:16

maybe the word coercion, right?

8:18

It's a very important distinction, and I think

8:20

I set back to explain how I see profession,

8:23

why it's called the rules. So what I explain

8:25

to people in the book and when I do

8:27

talk from the book is erase

8:29

the idea that persuasion is quote unquote

8:31

a soft skill, that it's an

8:33

amorphous saying or some innate either you're born with

8:36

or you don't. The metaphor I

8:38

use throughout the entire book is

8:40

persuasion is chemistry, chemistry with language.

8:42

And so if we take any of these three

8:44

things that Aristotle mentioned, because it's the strange thing

8:46

about Aristotle, which is the more obvious something was,

8:49

often the less he explained it. So it

8:51

gives us these three terms, but doesn't really

8:53

break it down for us. So I wanted

8:55

to write to answer two questions in the

8:57

book. What do you mean by character, emotion,

8:59

argument? Number one. Number two,

9:02

what is the process of persuasion? What does

9:04

it mean that someone's actually persuaded? What's happening

9:06

at that moment? I was really fascinated by

9:08

that question. And so in the book, I say,

9:10

if we take someone's character, we

9:13

can break it into seven pieces. What

9:15

does it come from, which I call origin? What's it

9:17

connected to, which I call associations? What sets did it

9:20

belong to, which are called categories, right? What do I

9:22

know about its past, which is called history? Then

9:25

there are seven pieces to argument,

9:27

witnesses, proofs, logic, authorities,

9:30

laws, et cetera. And

9:32

then there are certain kinds of

9:35

emotion, positive, negative, religious, mystical, et

9:37

cetera. These 21 pieces, I say, the

9:39

best way to understand these 21 pieces is

9:41

to go back to high school chemistry and

9:44

think of them as the periodic table of

9:46

persuasion. Every message I've ever

9:48

looked at, and I've looked at thousands, is

9:51

some combination of these 21 things. Now,

9:54

what happens is that chemistry of

9:56

language, like real chemistry, quote, unquote,

9:58

is a more I

10:01

can make medicine, I can make poison. I

10:03

can save your life with chemistry, I can

10:05

take your life with chemistry. The same is

10:07

true for language. I can use the rules

10:10

to save you, I can

10:12

use the rules to poison your

10:14

soul. And so that is the

10:16

reason why we used to study

10:18

this and after World War II

10:20

for various reasons, it was taken out of

10:22

the curriculum. And there are people who when

10:24

I was writing the book who read Charlie

10:26

drafts and thought, you shouldn't write this book.

10:29

These things were supposed to stay hidden and

10:31

they should remain hidden. But I think of

10:34

it as a vaccine, as an inoculation. I

10:36

think the best way to not get poisoned

10:38

is to understand how these things work. In

10:41

other words, it can be dangerous. It's kind

10:43

of like AI is kind of being talked

10:45

about these days. I have less of a

10:47

concern about what AI can or can't do.

10:50

I have more of a concern of what

10:52

people can choose to use it for. On

10:55

the machine, what it does is augment. In effect,

10:57

I was just on a podcast with

10:59

the CEO of an AI company and I

11:02

said, I don't like the word artificial. I

11:04

don't like artificial intelligence. I think it's augmented

11:06

intelligence. What I mean by that, that Google

11:08

augmented art memory. I don't have

11:10

to remember the 17th president of the

11:12

US because Google remembers for me. And

11:15

I carry around this portable memory piece

11:18

of my brain, which is very

11:20

handy, right? It's by portable memory. That's

11:22

lots of other certain skip books, we take it

11:24

further also remember 17th president states. Now

11:26

along comes AI, Chet and

11:42

I'll be right back. I'm done. Okay. 41 and all. So

11:46

the agency part is to your

11:49

point, which is we are augmenting

11:51

human intellectual capacity one step at

11:53

a time, but it's still human

11:55

intellectual capacity. That's to decide. If

11:58

you spend any time with Jeremy it

12:00

art like on Dali, right? Or isn't

12:02

this one the mid-journey? You

12:04

have to go lap by step by

12:06

step. What do you want? It's a

12:08

six-page, you know, six-power breadth instruction of

12:10

the image. It's not making it. You

12:12

are. You're envisioning it. It just puts

12:14

the pieces together from everything that it's

12:16

seen, right? But you're right. It is

12:18

ultimately people. So far anyway. Now, could

12:20

that change? Maybe, but we're not there yet.

12:23

So, I think one of the

12:25

things people might have a little bit

12:27

of a, I don't know, apprehension may

12:30

be the best word. Fear is probably

12:32

overdoing it. But they're saying in their

12:34

head, okay, Aristotle lived so long ago,

12:36

why would what he said then matter

12:38

to us now when it comes to persuasion?

12:41

Well, for the same reason

12:43

that Pythagoras took out a triangle right from

12:45

the same time. I wish we could throw

12:47

away Pythagoras, right? He kind of got the

12:49

triangle on from, he got it right at

12:52

the start and it's still a

12:54

triangle, right? And so there are some things the

12:56

Greeks got, right? A lot they got wrong. But

12:58

some things they got right. They

13:00

got right then and it's still right today.

13:02

And so just the way Pythagoras forgot that

13:05

triangle has three sides, Aristotle figured out persuasion

13:07

has two parts. And if there's a persuasion

13:09

triangle, if I want to combine the two

13:11

right tails, it had three sides in

13:13

400 BC, it had three sides in 500 BC, it has three sides

13:15

in 2024. Well,

13:19

and if anything else, I think just the people

13:22

that said, wait, you should keep this hidden or

13:24

I don't know if you should write this book

13:26

also resonate to the

13:29

power of Aristotle's concepts

13:31

of logos and

13:33

pathos and ethos like

13:35

you're expanding slash modernizing.

13:38

Exactly that. And people will use these three terms

13:40

in eternity because if you go on maintaining you

13:42

put in those terms, you get a whole bunch

13:44

of articles. But they don't say very much beyond

13:46

quoting that structure. And that's the reason I wrote

13:48

the book because my question was, well, what do

13:50

you mean once again, right by these three things

13:52

and how do they actually work? And

13:54

so you're exactly right. The challenge

13:57

becomes how do those

13:59

rules, right? How are

14:01

they manifested today in 2024 in

14:03

things like TikTok or Instagram in

14:06

today's political campaigns? The

14:08

formulas, I talk about formulas a little time

14:10

when the chemistry makes formulas, right? And

14:12

so the formulas are old but they're

14:15

being applied in different settings in different

14:17

ways and also at scale This is

14:19

different from Arizona, which is that because

14:21

you've got what I call persuasion factories

14:24

that are human and both and automated

14:27

You can deliver millions and no longer

14:29

as messages in a blink of

14:31

an eye and that wasn't part of

14:33

the original equation It is today the

14:35

rules the same right but the scope

14:37

of it and the scale of it

14:39

the speed are much different It's

14:41

on a massive scale now But

14:44

I think back to the presidential debate the

14:46

first one that was televised with John F

14:48

Kennedy and Nixon and how that was a

14:50

turning point Actually apply

14:53

these rules to what was happening at that

14:55

moment and then let's jump ahead to like

14:57

social media Yeah, so I

14:59

write about the debate as one of the

15:01

pivotal moments in the history of video, right?

15:03

In videos we're living at the end of

15:05

videos primacy for decades video has had

15:07

a uncontested validity if

15:09

he saw it happen on video, it

15:12

must be true and that's

15:14

no longer the case But that happened

15:16

to put her breath in Photoshop a couple

15:18

decades ago And now it's happening today a

15:20

video what happened at that moment is

15:23

the issue of character, right?

15:25

So as I mentioned one of the things is character And

15:28

so the first thing with debate was people who

15:30

heard it thought Nixon one people who saw it thought

15:32

Kennedy one And what happened

15:34

was that Kennedy style in the

15:36

associations that the audience make two

15:39

of the seven elements of character are style

15:41

and Association associations are things the audience connects

15:43

you to right? So

15:46

what they saw When they

15:48

saw Nixon his style and

15:50

his associations turn them

15:52

off what they saw when

15:55

they saw Kennedy Style and associations

15:57

turn them on and that's why he

16:00

one people who saw and lost

16:02

people who heard it, right? What

16:04

they saw was a young, handsome,

16:06

etc., stylish, right, eloquent,

16:09

etc. And they didn't see

16:11

the same with Nixon. And that's what

16:13

decided the event. It was style and

16:15

associations that the audience was making at

16:17

that moment in time. And that's why

16:19

I won the election there, at least in great

16:22

part. So then we fast forward

16:24

and you even just kind of alluded to

16:26

it with Photoshop and also now with deepfakes

16:28

when it comes to video, I've seen some

16:30

of these and I think, oh,

16:32

that looks real. And yet I can still, to

16:34

a certain extent, tell, but we're getting to a

16:36

place where we might not be able to tell

16:38

anymore. You're right. And that's

16:40

why you have things like that, I think

16:43

it's called constant authentication initiative, which is for

16:45

photographs. So what happens is that there's a

16:47

chip that's put into a camera, when the

16:49

image is taken, it encodes almost like a

16:51

fingerprint into that image that says it was

16:54

taken at this GPS coordinates at this time

16:56

with this camera. And so as

16:58

long as that information hasn't been tampered

17:00

with, it can appear, let's say, in New

17:04

York Times, Wall Street Journal, can put the

17:06

photograph knowing that it is the photograph that

17:08

was taken by that photographer at that camera

17:10

in that particular place. If it's been tampered

17:12

with, I can't run it because

17:14

something might have happened to it. So

17:17

I do believe that, and I think by

17:19

the sum of that, two things will happen.

17:21

One is technology will evolve. For

17:24

example, there's a company called OtherWeb, which

17:26

is the podcast that was on the CEO.

17:28

And what they're doing is they're developing a

17:30

platform that applies his metaphor was

17:32

like information, like a content

17:34

label or food to a

17:36

new story. So like this new story is 35%,

17:39

it got like 12%, 10% like that. So

17:41

the idea is that you get this ingredients

17:43

menu, he called it, that's it. What

17:46

was the story made from? Right? So I think

17:48

there's technology, but I also think that as human

17:50

beings will have to develop evolutionarily

17:53

or enhance the part of our

17:55

mind that is able to distinguish

17:57

to your point, some things not.

18:00

right. Like this photo of the Middleton where

18:02

you steal somebody somewhere, pick something up and

18:04

then it all kind of blew up. I

18:06

think we're going to get a lot better

18:09

at that as a species. Yeah.

18:11

So you mentioned character, you

18:13

mentioned style, you mentioned association. What

18:15

are some of the other pieces

18:17

that fall under that character category

18:19

with the rules or the periodic

18:22

table? Yeah, right. So I mentioned

18:24

two or three. One is the most important

18:26

one, which is origin. So origin

18:28

refers to where was the character from,

18:30

what formed it, right? So

18:32

for example, that could be what did you

18:34

go to school and the

18:37

more elite or more tribal of the

18:39

audience, the more important origin

18:41

is. People who went to fancy

18:43

schools care where you went to school. People

18:46

who spent time in the military, if

18:48

they were special forces, the fact that

18:51

you were cast a lot, right?

18:53

So our character has a shared

18:56

origin, right? Very, very important. Another

18:58

one is history. What do I

19:00

know about your past? And the funny

19:03

thing about history is that it works by directionally.

19:05

And by that, I mean that you

19:07

can persuade me because you reaffirm

19:09

everything I know about your past.

19:12

So I've heard that you're a

19:14

philanthropist and we meet and

19:16

you tell me that you're about to make

19:19

a big donation and you're a very generous

19:21

person, right? But it also works

19:23

by completely negating your past.

19:26

As for example, when somebody

19:28

who was a drug dealer goes

19:31

to schools and talks against drug

19:33

dealing, what have they done?

19:35

They say, I was a drug dealer

19:37

for 20 years. And because I was

19:39

a drug dealer, now believe me that

19:41

it's a bad thing. It's a remarkable

19:43

reversal. Or when somebody leaves the political

19:45

party, I was a Democrat for 25

19:47

years, now I'm

19:50

a Republican, can't trust Democrats anymore. So

19:52

I'm forced, they force me to change

19:55

parties, right? So this funny thing

19:57

about or undercover boss, the show,

19:59

where the CEO works as

20:02

a line cook for a week and

20:04

learns valuable lessons. You know, in that

20:06

case, actually, it's status, which I think I mentioned, which is status

20:09

is the power of the speaker road to the audience. So

20:12

that's part of character. So who's more powerful?

20:14

You are the listeners. Sometimes it

20:16

works by reminding them that you're more powerful. Sometimes

20:18

persuasion work because you give up

20:20

authority to that. And

20:23

you say, I could make the choice,

20:25

but I won't. I'll let me decide.

20:28

I think we should do this, but you know what?

20:30

You make the call. That's the

20:32

use of status, history, origin. I

20:35

know you mentioned style as well.

20:37

I'm trying to think of what the other one is. I

20:39

think language is another one that's missing maybe there from the

20:42

seven. Very important. So what words

20:44

do you use? Do you use fancy

20:46

words, simple words, language? Are you plain

20:48

spoken? Quote unquote. Right? Are you fancy,

20:51

Ivy League language? Right. Quote unquote. So

20:53

the words, like you use technical jargon. Do

20:56

you use words that everybody understands? The

20:59

common thing with professionals that they love

21:01

jargon because it shows their

21:03

origin. Jargon tells one audience, I'm part

21:05

of you. I'm one of you. Language

21:09

tells another audience, you're not one of us. The

21:11

same word tells group A, I'm one of you. The same

21:14

word tells group B, I'm not one of you. All

21:16

right. So being careful about what words

21:18

you use is really critical. And

21:21

so those all fall under character. And

21:23

character is that kind of

21:25

it's almost the before I even say

21:27

anything or as I'm starting to say

21:29

something, those are all like hints

21:31

and cues and context in a sense,

21:33

context of the person or the messenger.

21:35

Yeah. Character in the sense not of

21:37

your good or bad character, character in

21:39

the sense of a character that I

21:41

see in a movie. Right. You

21:44

see these figures in the old Greek classic

21:46

plays that have like a smiling right or

21:48

a kind of frowning face. Right. The character

21:50

that you're playing that the audience sees. These

21:53

seven elements define who and what

21:55

the audience sees that is communicating.

21:58

Perfect. That's a great way to frame it because I think. Some people

22:00

would say character meaning your ethics, you

22:02

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22:04

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22:06

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22:09

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25:55

I think the next piece here the

25:58

argument section or grouping of elements. elements

26:00

is the one where I think a lot of

26:02

people jump to when they think the word persuade,

26:04

they think, oh, you're going to argue with me.

26:06

Okay, fine. Let's have at

26:08

it. But that's not exactly what you

26:11

mean. That at all. An argument has

26:13

against seven pieces, for example, logic, use

26:15

deduction, induction, these kinds of

26:17

techniques that lawyers learn or philosophers learn.

26:20

That's one thing. There

26:22

is call to authorities. So

26:24

this expert agrees with me,

26:26

right? So that's a call to authority. There

26:29

are things like laws and standards. So

26:32

the law says this is the right thing.

26:34

Or we have community standard. This is a

26:36

big term of a couple of decades ago,

26:38

right? So the values of this community, right?

26:41

American values, that's a call to standards,

26:43

right? So you've got

26:45

evidence, witnesses. The problem that

26:47

we have with this is that most people

26:50

have been taught not to use character,

26:53

and they don't know how to use emotion. And

26:55

so they go back, they're stuck kind

26:57

of with argument. And almost everyone I've

26:59

ever coached, otherwise very professional successful people,

27:02

what I tell them is this, perforation is a

27:04

shit with three mass on which two

27:06

sales are tightly wound up. There's one

27:08

sale that's open, it's called argument, and it's tattered because

27:10

it's doing a lot of work. So

27:12

you may want to lower that, open the

27:15

other two, the bolts can move a

27:17

lot faster and get you a lot farther

27:19

than just in this poor, raggedy, statistical,

27:21

let's turn into all the work. And

27:24

I say, especially to tech

27:26

people, right, scientists and technology people,

27:28

the more persuaded you are by

27:31

argument, the farther away you are

27:33

from persuading the average person. interesting.

27:36

So why would you say that?

27:38

I think a lot of people

27:40

would say because they look at

27:42

argument, they look at things like

27:44

logic and especially evidence. Although

27:46

if we go back to some of the things

27:48

we were talking about earlier with technology, and the

27:50

way that plays into things and can be, air

27:53

quotes, faked, that's a little circumspect

27:55

these days. But evidence, if

27:57

it's concrete, it's proven, it's factual,

27:59

then And how can you argue

28:01

against that? The problem with

28:03

evidence is that it's very hard to build

28:05

correctly. Argument is hard to use. That's why

28:07

people go to law school for years where

28:09

they get PC's in philosophy. Otherwise you would

28:12

just become a philosopher just because you decide

28:14

to become a philosopher. Like being a writer,

28:16

anybody can be a writer, okay? There's no

28:18

writer's test path to publish a book. You

28:20

write it and that's that. That's a

28:22

little different with being a logician, right?

28:25

There's actually formal trading and

28:27

logic. So putting together argument,

28:29

putting together cohesive logical

28:31

sequences is a difficult thing. And

28:34

what happens is people who aren't trained in

28:36

this have a hard time following. So

28:39

what happens with argument is that when it fails,

28:41

right, it creates confusion at

28:43

best and I say in the book,

28:45

in chaos at worst. And

28:48

so if you're not in control of

28:50

those pieces, a lot of us have been down leading

28:52

where after two minutes someone talking, you go, I have

28:54

no idea where are you going with this, right? And

28:57

it's just been a minute or two

28:59

and I'm already lost because argument is

29:01

difficult to build well. And

29:03

by the way, even professional argument people,

29:05

lawyers, case after case where it falls

29:08

apart, right? The case fall apart, they were

29:10

winning and they're losing because they couldn't keep

29:13

it together. So it's

29:15

difficult to build correctly, difficult

29:17

to follow and because of

29:19

that is why we place so

29:21

much weight on character and emotion.

29:24

Well, and ideally, using

29:26

a combination of all

29:28

three slash all 21 is

29:31

really what's going to yield the actual or the

29:33

best results with I don't want to say the

29:35

least amount of effort, but the least amount of

29:37

struggle in the effort may be a better way

29:39

to put it. I don't know. Think

29:42

about it as like the highest level of efficacy,

29:44

right? You're not probably going to have all 21

29:46

because there's no medicine that has every element in

29:48

PR table. But what you want to have is

29:50

the right combination. And I talk in the book

29:52

about examples of people who were good at putting

29:54

law free. Just do it. One

29:57

of my favorite, right? Almost always rated a number

29:59

one tagline. in history, at least in the US. And

30:03

I explained to people that I think it's that,

30:05

it's all three things. It's an argument,

30:07

technically a counter argument because you give all the reasons

30:09

for why you're not going to work out today. And

30:12

Iky says, yeah, I don't care, just do it.

30:15

My counter argument, right? It is

30:17

a statement about character. It says,

30:19

listen, weak people, stay in

30:21

bed when it's cold outside, people

30:24

who are admirable, strong,

30:28

get up and go run. Which

30:30

one are you? And then it's emotional. It

30:33

says, don't you want to win? Don't

30:35

you want to feel the thrill of victory? Right?

30:37

So it's beautiful and

30:40

it's beautifully persuasive because all three

30:42

things. In one, the other example I

30:44

talk about in the book is the Gettysburg Address. If

30:46

you look at Gettysburg Address, and I

30:48

color code it, right, character, argument and

30:50

emotion, I think there are only two

30:52

sentences that are not color coded. Anything

30:55

else falls into one of these three things, which is

30:57

why it's only two and a half minutes long and

31:00

yet the segue to speech in American history. So

31:02

speaking of emotion, I know that's one we haven't dove

31:04

into yet. What are the

31:06

elements of emotion? Because I think that's the other one

31:09

that I think a lot of people are thinking. Argument

31:12

first, maybe emotion, then maybe character,

31:14

but of course that's a misconception

31:16

as well. So emotion

31:18

has things like there are

31:20

positive emotions, happiness, joy, right?

31:23

There are negative emotions, hatred,

31:25

indignation, anger. You've got

31:28

emotions that are exhortative. What's the call

31:30

to action? Join me. Let's

31:32

roll. There are emotions that are contemplative.

31:34

They slow the brain down. They cause

31:37

us nostalgia, for example. You stop, you

31:39

recall, and you think, right?

31:41

There are emotions that are inspirational

31:43

and inspiration means to create desire,

31:45

to convince someone that they lack something,

31:48

right? And then there are mystical emotions, which

31:50

are emotions that you feel but can't quite

31:52

explain. And then there are

31:55

religious emotions, which are emotions that accompany

31:57

religious experience, right? And they are built

31:59

to automatically. theology, or

32:02

theological events, or religious events that

32:04

are set. So they're very powerful

32:07

things. Now, you're

32:09

bringing forward from the

32:11

past these elements, these

32:13

modes, and not just

32:16

crossing time but crossing space,

32:18

these cross boundaries of cultures,

32:21

they're principled in their elemental status,

32:23

in other words. I

32:25

think so in our book, I use

32:27

examples from classical Chinese poetry, for example.

32:30

And Confucian philosophy and logic. And

32:32

so these are, in my opinion,

32:34

universal things that are about human

32:37

beings. They're not about Greeks, right?

32:39

They're not about antiquity, they're about people. And

32:42

in fact, there's a section in my book where I

32:44

look at five case studies, right? The first one is

32:46

the Dialogues of Plato. The second one is the

32:48

first 10 years of Muhammad, right? So

32:51

the creator of Islam had to leave

32:53

Mecca to go into exile early on

32:55

because he wasn't wanted there, or the

32:57

powers that be. So he

33:00

spends several years in exile,

33:03

but eventually returns triumphantly. During

33:06

that period of time, he converts

33:08

the first generation of Muslims. How?

33:11

How did he persuade... How did a

33:14

person who was in exile persuade that

33:16

first generation, the people who were

33:18

the ancestors religiously of today's worldwide

33:20

Muslim population? I look at

33:23

the Chinese posters during the

33:25

rise of communist China during the

33:27

Mao era because you've got a

33:29

1.7 billion people, most who are

33:32

illiterate. There's no social media, there's

33:34

no TV. You've got radio, but radio is

33:36

expensive. So how do you

33:38

reach a majority that has no

33:41

electronic media, can't read? You do

33:43

it through posters, through art, right? And so there's

33:45

a whole chapter that I was able to access

33:47

the poster collection at a university in England. They

33:50

were very nice to let me use it. And

33:52

then I look at a couple other examples. Well,

33:55

the last one I look at is a video

33:57

on YouTube, just Kevin

33:59

Costner's. eulogy of Whitney Houston, you

34:01

know, where Whitney Houston died. Of course, he had started with

34:04

her in the barre guard and

34:06

he hadn't spoken about her publicly and

34:08

all her issues and he

34:10

was invited by her family to come

34:12

in and speak at the funeral in

34:14

New Jersey. And if you haven't seen

34:16

the video, it's wonderful. It's where the,

34:18

I think, where the great pieces of

34:20

modern American oratory, it's a very ancient

34:23

form of eulogy goes back to antiquity.

34:25

And so, Rise of Islam, Chinese

34:27

posters, the poetic dialogues. Oh

34:30

yeah, and I look at Marvin Gaye's What's

34:32

Going on? The album. Yeah. Another

34:34

wonderful, it's our musical creation, but

34:36

the rules are all there. When

34:39

I wrote the book, I did tell a great

34:41

example and then I went and found out that

34:43

it had become Rolly's Sound Squares album, like a

34:45

role album of all time, which didn't surprise me.

34:47

I agree with that. Yeah, and then I answered

34:49

Kepna Costner. So, all very different people, very different

34:51

places, the roles at work and all of them. I

34:54

think what that speaks to, all

34:56

those different examples, they're all spokes

34:58

pointing to that hub of different

35:00

combinations of the elements as

35:03

to why this transcends.

35:06

Sometimes it's overly visual

35:08

or iconic, like the posters.

35:10

Sometimes it's communal and religious,

35:12

like Muhammad. Sometimes it's, although

35:14

I'd say sometimes I'm thinking of

35:16

my experience, not as much

35:19

these days, but more so back in,

35:21

say, high school college where you would

35:23

have a visual of you're sitting there

35:25

opening the liner notes to something that's a

35:27

music album as it used to be known

35:29

as, right? And you've

35:31

got your headphones on and you're

35:33

listening to it and you're hearing

35:35

the emotion, you're following the lyrics,

35:37

which is potentially logical but definitely

35:39

different chemistry of all of these

35:42

elements. And so, I think that's

35:44

something people can relate to. Yeah,

35:46

what you're talking about there as well is the

35:48

delivery, right? So medicine, once again, back of chemistry,

35:50

but I didn't make a medicine, but sometimes we

35:52

give it to you in a pill. Sometimes it's

35:54

liquid. Sometimes it's a shot. This is

35:57

a patch. So the chemistry is

35:59

the chemistry. but how I can

36:01

keep it to you. Can you tell it? We

36:03

give kids little kids medicine in certain ways that

36:05

we don't do for adults and vice versa. So

36:08

the formula is one part. But you say, well, how am I going

36:10

to deliver it? And

36:12

it's another problem because the easiest delivery

36:15

mechanism for human beings, it's like the

36:17

spoonful of sugar and Mary Poppins, is

36:19

a story. Story narrative

36:22

is a chemistry delivery device.

36:25

And all narrative is changed over time.

36:27

The question becomes, okay, do

36:29

I deliver this to you in

36:31

a very analytical report? Do I deliver it to

36:34

you in a story? Do I let someone else

36:36

tell a story, which is calling on your witnesses?

36:39

Do I show you pictures? They work in

36:41

certain ways. And so the

36:43

great communicators now, not just what's the right

36:45

formula, a little bit of this, a little

36:47

bit of that, but they're also

36:49

very good at deciding how do I

36:52

deliver this to you, depending on

36:54

when I'm communicating to you or the audience. So

36:58

and I think that's what's really interesting, that's

37:00

why it's a different experience if you listen

37:02

to Dark Side of the Moon without reading

37:04

the lyrics or if you read

37:06

the lyrics without listening to the music or

37:09

if you do both simultaneously. There

37:11

are three different ways, right, to

37:13

experience or to absorb the message

37:15

that Waters and Company were sending

37:17

for that particular piece of art.

37:20

And so the delivery mechanism becomes the other

37:23

thing that, well, right, quick message

37:25

delivered in the wrong way. Or

37:28

if you take it another step further and sync

37:30

up the album with The Wizard of Oz. I

37:34

haven't done that. You know, I have

37:36

seen movies without visuals. I'm a movie

37:38

junkie and I study movies and so

37:40

I, especially the sound of movies, so

37:42

my favorite movie to watch without just

37:44

listen to it say is Alien,

37:47

right? So the Ridley Scott classic. And

37:49

to listen to Alien, in my opinion, is

37:51

scarier than to watch Alien. It's

37:54

just wonderful sound construction. And

37:56

again, Sound activates certain

37:58

emotions, right? And because you don't

38:01

have site your brain goes into things that

38:03

he would they won't do if if you're

38:05

seeing with if he had tapping. The

38:07

don't know what it is that scared me to

38:09

just sees somebody working on a utility pole. take

38:11

him into the bar graph and just kinda sounds

38:13

your frame with them. Began to sell and. Well.

38:16

What does that? something? Brittany into the house

38:19

rats with the says that it's funny how

38:21

that works, you can certain seems augment. Emotional

38:24

reactions which then play into the suppression

38:26

of the precise chemistry of us. Again,

38:28

yeah you say aliens and the listening

38:30

to it versus watching it makes me

38:32

go. And then the opposite end of

38:34

that spectrum is like the quiet place

38:36

movies where you're seeing things but if

38:39

you're on the edges seat because you

38:41

geared like straining to hear anything as

38:43

a clue in that sense as well.

38:45

So my ears are above sound. Younger.

38:48

I mean as to do a job they

38:50

normally don't do so the back when you're

38:52

watching through a window. This. Is rear

38:54

window right as your eyes are.

38:57

Looking. For other. Shoes. Of

38:59

what's going on for all you have is the

39:01

visual. Input which know all

39:03

terse right which seen with the

39:05

believers and now course they're doing

39:07

that intentionally. They're using their leaning

39:10

into that and that gifts to

39:12

what you're talking about with the

39:14

different components as well as the

39:16

delivery. how would somebody start to

39:18

decipher? Okay, I have this message

39:20

or I have this thing I

39:22

want to persuade either one or

39:24

many people love and I need

39:26

to decipher how I can go

39:28

about one best combining the right

39:31

components and then the. Right delivery

39:33

method. The most important thing

39:35

is and know that there are three modes

39:37

a dinner Again so much of what I

39:39

do is is t at people out of

39:41

the everything is done to argument most. Right

39:44

which is almost always what I find in

39:46

a A Tell. Imagine that there there are

39:48

three dials. And. They all go up

39:51

from and you know from zero to ten

39:53

right the possibly precise it messes a thirty

39:55

score. I find that ago when I meet

39:57

and they're like a six or seven. With.

40:00

a couple of weeks we're at 14 right

40:03

when we're finished we're in the 20s and

40:05

so a very simple question would be

40:08

what element in the character list? I

40:11

don't care what it is any of the seven just pick one

40:14

but if you exist that if you add

40:16

it to the formula it would make you

40:18

more persuasive right? So

40:20

just ask that very simple question just

40:22

make a list except anything here that

40:24

I have and there always is

40:26

at least so far my experience

40:29

and once you find it and you include it

40:31

in the formula the formula can be completely transformed.

40:33

I'll give you a real example if you want

40:36

this happened to me a couple

40:38

weeks ago so I'm coaching someone

40:40

who started a non-profit in Hawaii

40:42

it does environmental cleanup specifically

40:44

inside the ocean so Reese she's

40:46

a very successful person was a

40:48

doctor retired early both of Hawaii

40:50

and now she's doing media interviews about the

40:53

foundation to this done done great work

40:55

so I asked her when somebody asked you why did

40:57

you start this what you say and she

40:59

gives a very very uncle person very smart

41:01

very logical I had retired I was

41:03

in home my kids had left I wanted

41:06

to do something etc very

41:08

concrete step-by-step thing but

41:10

it doesn't really affect anyone besides other

41:12

than you intellectually know why she did

41:14

this and then I said okay let's

41:17

try it again but I

41:19

want you to find something in your history go back

41:21

when you were a little girl just

41:23

tell me something about you that

41:25

connects to this foundation so she's

41:28

bought by for a minute and then she said

41:30

okay how about this this

41:32

is true when I was a little girl growing up

41:34

in Puerto Rico I used to watch

41:36

a show called Jackal still and Jackal

41:38

still was a show with this French guy

41:40

used to run around the world diving into the

41:43

ocean and I just said it was the most

41:45

amazing life and I used to sit spellbound in

41:48

front of the tv watching Jackal still and I wanted

41:50

to be Jackal still fortunately

41:52

my family had other plans so

41:54

I became a doctor but the moment I

41:56

stopped being a doctor I moved to Hawaii

41:58

and I signed up for diving

42:00

classes and I wanted

42:03

to be a fish photographer. So I

42:05

started diving but I'm the

42:07

world's worst fish photographer. All

42:09

my photographs were just

42:11

tails. One day I

42:13

went out and I would

42:15

go to the same place where there was this coral reef and

42:18

I had all these tails and one day there

42:20

were no fish and I looked

42:22

up and I saw the reef. I realized

42:24

why I could come back to same spot. It wasn't the

42:26

fish, it was the reef. It was the most

42:28

beautiful thing I'd ever seen and if

42:30

that is decided I'm going to spend the rest of

42:32

my life protecting this place and

42:35

I said, that's the story.

42:37

That's the story and your foundation was

42:39

born or not when you created it but the

42:42

state of Hawaii was born the first

42:44

time you turned on TV and you saw Jack of Stuff.

42:46

That's its origin. Tell me that

42:48

story and I'll help you anyway I can. Tell me

42:50

the first story. Yeah, not that

42:53

interesting but there it was. Right there.

42:57

Just a quick question and

42:59

suddenly just and I can't tell this

43:01

whether she can. This beautiful tail of

43:04

how this thing, this wonderful thing came to be. So

43:08

that's an example of just asking yourself a

43:10

very simple question. What in

43:12

Hawaii am I would get

43:14

you to believe? That is

43:17

a great question. That's a really

43:19

great question. I hadn't thought about

43:21

that way and of course your

43:23

story there lends credibility or persuasive

43:25

element to the fact that story

43:27

is honestly one of the most

43:29

powerful ways to persuade. I

43:32

believe it's the original persuasive

43:34

delivery mechanism. Way back

43:36

before there was writing there were

43:38

stories and so in the farthest

43:40

recesses of our history as a

43:42

species, the very first way

43:44

we persuaded each other was to

43:47

justify to gestures I guess. But even

43:49

the gestures were a story and

43:51

so story is the

43:53

original persuasion delivery mechanism

43:56

and it still works. It's still

43:58

the best. When it's not

44:00

right. Like I said, there's emotion, right? I ask

44:02

the exact time where you go, like

44:04

I work with startup founders who have

44:07

the pitch text and I say, hey,

44:09

what do you want me to feel when you're done talking? I

44:11

answer that question. And I tell you that people from the internet

44:13

that first they never thought about it. I go, I

44:16

don't know. I go, what do you want me to feel? Was

44:18

it happy, excited, relieved,

44:21

real greedy? Pick

44:23

an emotion of seven. Like if you want

44:25

to feel something, so if you're not engineering

44:27

it, then you're leaving it to chance. Then

44:30

great communicators don't leave things to chance. Right?

44:32

Just the way great chemists don't go, well, let's give it to

44:34

them and see what happens. Right? They

44:37

think this through. And so you want to know

44:39

exactly what I'm going to feel because

44:41

that is the closing part of this

44:44

in many cases, right? You start talking,

44:46

I start feeling. So what

44:48

do you want me to feel? And that's what's important. Is anything

44:50

else you're going to show me? I'm probably going to forget that.

44:53

I'm not going to forget how I felt

44:55

during that whole time you were talking. So

44:57

those are the two most basic questions that

44:59

we start with is what

45:01

part of your story makes

45:03

me want to believe you? And then

45:06

what do you want the audience to feel? And

45:09

then work as hard as that as

45:11

on everything else you've got, if

45:13

not more. Those two

45:15

things can overcome all kinds of

45:17

issues or weaknesses in the argument

45:19

part. Right? And we

45:21

see politicians, the politician who, because they're

45:23

white and because they feel good, they

45:26

won the elections. Even

45:28

if their policies or logic are not always

45:30

as great as they could be, it doesn't

45:32

make a difference. At the end

45:34

of the day, they persuade people, this is

45:36

who should leave me. On that

45:38

note, I'm hoping that people are thinking and

45:40

or feeling that they want to grab your

45:42

book and I'd love to point people to

45:44

your site where they can find out more

45:46

about you but then also grab it. Well,

45:49

we go back to, I'll answer my own

45:51

question, what do I always want someone to

45:53

feel when I stop talking and that is

45:55

just curiosity. Right? Well, I'd like

45:57

to know more. If you want to know

45:59

more... You can find the book on Amazon.

46:01

It's called The Rules of Persuasion. It's

46:03

available in print. It's available on

46:05

Kindle. It's an audible. I did the narration

46:08

for the audio version. It's also audiobooks, which

46:10

I'll never do again, brother with The Nightmare.

46:13

And then if you want to know

46:15

more about my other publications, call us

46:17

over on the internet. That takes

46:20

to my site and you can see interviews

46:22

and but really more importantly find about

46:24

other things that I've written and our plan that

46:26

are coming this year at next. If you have

46:28

a question, you can contact me through the site

46:30

as well. That's great. I'm going to link up

46:32

to your site and Amazon

46:34

link to the book in the show notes. I'm

46:36

also going to throw in, I'm going to find

46:38

that YouTube video of Kevin Costner's Ulogy

46:41

of Whitney Houston and maybe throw

46:43

a link into the Rolling

46:45

Stone best album Marvin Gaye What's Going

46:47

On, one of my favorite albums by

46:49

the way. So perfect. Carlos, it's been

46:51

great talking with you. Thank you so

46:54

much for sharing with us. Thank

46:56

you so much for having me on. Thank you for

46:58

listening to our conversation. It's been a pleasure and

47:01

I wish everybody a great day. Well,

47:04

that's another podcast crossed off your listening

47:06

to do list. I hope that this

47:09

conversation persuaded you

47:11

to grab Carlos's book, The

47:13

Rules of Persuasion. I

47:15

got to say it is incredibly powerful.

47:17

This along with some of the other

47:20

recent communication episodes that we've done on

47:23

presentation and a few others, which I'll

47:25

link up to in the show notes,

47:27

are incredibly helpful because communication is so

47:29

key to productivity.

47:32

Think about how many times that you've been stuck

47:34

trying to communicate across different

47:36

channels to get people to see things from

47:38

a certain perspective and you're going about it

47:41

the wrong way and because of that it

47:43

is like spinning your ram cycles and

47:47

making you go crazy and this can help.

47:49

So I really hope you got something great

47:51

out of this and if you did, would

47:53

you do me the favor of sharing this

47:55

with someone that you know needs to hear

47:57

it? Think of a co-worker. Think of a

47:59

friend. Think of the social media world

48:01

at large and share it there. I don't know. In

48:04

any of those instances, if this helped you, I

48:07

would love for you to do me the favor

48:09

of sharing this to help grow the show. If

48:11

you're enjoying the show, I would love for you

48:13

to help me grow this podcast. Thank you so

48:15

much for sharing. Thanks again

48:17

for listening, and I'll see you

48:19

next episode.