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1:30

I was accused of having no plan and being

1:32

unreliable because some of what he said when he

1:34

was running for Labour Leader in 2020 has

1:36

since been abandoned. I'm

1:38

Michelle Hussein and I spoke to Seqir Stama

1:41

on the Today programme, starting by asking if

1:43

he would agree it is vital to understand

1:45

the beliefs that will guide him if he

1:47

gets the keys to number 10. Absolutely,

1:50

and that's why during the course of

1:52

last year I set

1:54

out the five big

1:57

missions That I want the Labour

1:59

government to... Only five of

2:01

them because I wanted driving sense of

2:03

purpose and followed by else y sus

2:05

that's not realize you had lost last

2:08

week. I am said well in addition

2:10

to the or alongside the big missions

2:12

if you like it's important that everybody

2:14

understands what of first steps towards as

2:16

missions And so we set out Ah

2:18

six First Steps last week ago. And

2:21

then are course about two weeks away from

2:23

the manifesto. I want to understand your beliefs

2:25

in relation to some of the issues that

2:27

matter to people and what you could therefore

2:30

do if you do meet one of those

2:32

missions as achieving the highest sustained growth in

2:34

the G. Seven Seas still believe in free

2:36

university tuition. Well,

2:39

I certainly believe that we've got

2:41

to change the current arrangement because

2:43

I don't think their first at

2:45

Ss Book or another Sli abolishing

2:47

Jewish and Fees is one way

2:49

of achieving that one you believe

2:52

Down and Twenty isn't it that?

2:54

Well, yes I did, and that's

2:56

why I said it. But since

2:58

then there's been huge damage to

3:00

the economy and as we got

3:02

towards the election, we've had to

3:04

make difficult choices. Yeah, I. Am I under

3:06

under six or seven? I'm kind of thinking. Local events

3:08

as I'm a complete you do secure the highest

3:11

sustained growth in the Gts and could you go

3:13

back to that. He had

3:15

just it's just a bunch of only

3:17

to be out because actually understanding who

3:19

I am does require some in what

3:21

way to let my decisions. So what

3:23

I've. Decided. is that

3:26

against the economic damage that's been done

3:28

with has to be clear that we

3:30

will only make commitments goings his legs

3:32

and that we'd know we can fulfill

3:34

looking at the costing for tuition fees

3:36

or polishing that looking at the money

3:38

we need to put into the nhs

3:40

i've taken the to sweetheart device now

3:42

thousand of com signal except but some

3:45

people say you're going back on one

3:47

but not the other but we can't

3:49

have both and i've decided that we

3:51

have got to prioritize getting those waiting

3:53

lists down in the i just because

3:55

we can't get our economy going we

3:57

can't have a healthy nation with us

4:00

Now that's the way I think and that's

4:02

the, you know, I came into politics as you know late.

4:05

It's actually I think how most people think which

4:07

is look, yes, in an ideal world, I would

4:09

like a number of things but in the real

4:11

world I can't have them all and I've got

4:13

to make some difficult choices. I'd rather make the

4:16

choice now this side of the election than

4:18

say something now which I know in my heart of

4:20

hearts is not deliverable the other side of the election.

4:22

And I think that's why I'm interested in your beliefs

4:24

because I think most people understand there's a difference between

4:26

what you will promise to do now or in a

4:29

couple of weeks in your full manifesto and

4:31

what your core beliefs

4:33

are, what you would do if you get

4:36

to that position on economic growth. Would you

4:38

scrap the two child benefit cap? Well

4:43

in an ideal world of course but we haven't

4:45

got the resources to do it at

4:47

the moment. What I will do because

4:49

child poverty is something I'm

4:51

absolutely set against. The last Labour government

4:53

had an anti-child poverty strategy and we

4:55

managed to do a huge amount of

4:57

good stuff on child poverty. We will

4:59

do the same thing and have a

5:02

child poverty strategy but there are other

5:04

elements to it. I mean

5:06

if you look across the country

5:08

particularly in my constituency in London,

5:10

child poverty and housing are tied

5:12

up together, child poverty and the cost

5:14

of living and the way the

5:16

economy is run are tied up together. All of

5:19

that needs to be brought together. This

5:21

particular policy... I accept it's a challenge we'll

5:23

have to rise to. But

5:26

this particular policy is one

5:28

I'm sure you would acknowledge that is causing

5:31

real hardship for families. Scottish Labour is against

5:33

it, Gordon Brown is against it. People

5:35

again might understand that the world is never likely

5:37

to be ideal but if

5:40

you secured the higher sustained growth in

5:42

the G7 which is one of those

5:44

core missions, would you do it? Well

5:49

in an ideal world we'll be able to do that and

5:51

we do... I'll be clear we want

5:53

to grow the economy so we can absolutely put

5:55

the money where it's needed but I do

5:58

think it's important just... to take

6:02

a moment to appreciate the damage that's been done

6:04

to the economy. Huge damage

6:06

in the last 14 years, particularly by Liz

6:08

Truss. We're going, if we're

6:10

privileged enough to come in to serve, and it will be

6:12

to serve, then we

6:14

are going to inherit probably the worst

6:17

economic circumstances for a very, very long

6:19

time. It is not fair, it's not

6:21

right for me to simply pretend to

6:23

the electorate that we can do everything

6:25

we'd like to do. That's why in

6:27

my Labour Party conference speech last year

6:29

and the year before, I said

6:31

there will be good things, good Labour things

6:33

that we won't be able to do as quickly

6:35

as we would like. That's not the world I'd

6:37

like it to be, but it's the world we're

6:40

living in. But there are other things,

6:42

aren't there, that don't cost money. You used

6:44

to believe in abolishing the House of Lords.

6:46

That was recently then delayed and not a

6:48

first term priority. You

6:51

are standing on a platform

6:53

promising change, so people will

6:55

have expectations. A serious

6:57

change. Yes. I

7:01

think the big choice going into this election

7:03

really is to stop

7:05

the chaos of the last 14 years.

7:08

That has a cost, a human

7:10

cost, to turn the page,

7:12

if you like, and change and rebuild

7:14

our country. Now, let me, you challenged

7:17

me on the House of Lords quite

7:19

rightly. I do want to abolish the

7:21

House of Lords. The question is, what

7:23

are the priorities straight away? That's

7:26

why I set out the missions, because I think one

7:28

of the mistakes that governments make is

7:30

not to be clear enough in their priorities. What

7:32

are the things that matter most that we've got

7:34

to tackle first? And that's why

7:36

I said we've got to get the economy

7:38

both stable and growing. And that means living

7:40

standards everywhere across the country, not just in

7:42

some places. We need to get the NHS

7:45

back on its feet, but fit for the

7:47

future. We need to make sure that we've got

7:49

great British energy so that we can have clean

7:51

power by 2030. We

7:53

need skills and opportunity for every young person,

7:55

so we smash the class ceiling that's been placed

7:57

for too long. And we need to make sure we're

7:59

all committed. communities are safe and secure. Now they're

8:02

my five missions. The reason I set

8:04

out missions because I want a driving

8:06

sense of purpose for an

8:08

incoming government, that means we've got to

8:10

prioritise. Can I do everything else alongside

8:12

them? I don't think so. So

8:15

we've got to prioritise. And the point is that

8:17

I've made it again away, I think. On economic

8:19

stability, would you acknowledge that Rishi Sunak is the

8:21

man who stabilised the economy? No.

8:24

He said that

8:28

inflation going up was nothing to do with

8:30

him, even though he was, he'd been Chancellor

8:32

and Prime Minister for many, many years. So

8:34

he said when inflation went up, it was

8:36

nothing to do with him. Now when it's

8:38

come down, he said it's all to do

8:40

with him. I don't think anybody listening is

8:42

going to be taken in by that. He

8:45

says he's exercised restraint in public spending and

8:47

on public sector pay. Inflation is

8:49

nearly down to the Bank of

8:52

England's target. Well

8:54

as I say, I think people

8:57

have formed their own views. I think somebody who says when

8:59

inflation goes up, it's nothing to do with me. When it

9:01

comes down, it's everything to do with me. People make their

9:03

own mind up on that. But what I would say is

9:05

this, after 14 years,

9:07

people are not better off. And

9:10

there's something, again I came

9:12

into politics late, I don't do the tribal stuff

9:14

as much as everybody else. But I believe to

9:16

my core that if after 14 years

9:19

you leave your country in a worse

9:21

state than when you found it, that's

9:23

the economy, your public services, the state

9:25

of the nation, then that is unforgivable,

9:27

whichever political party you are. And that's

9:29

the state that we're in now. OK.

9:32

They came in after a global financial crisis and there

9:34

was a pandemic in the middle of it. But I

9:36

want to move on to other things that you

9:39

stand for and that you believe in. Do

9:41

you believe that Natalie Elphick represents today's Labour

9:44

Party better than Diane Abbott? Natalie

9:48

Elphick has crossed the floor

9:50

to Labour because she says that

9:53

the Tories have become a byword for incompetence and

9:55

she thinks Labour is the only party that can

9:57

take us forward. She has become a member. that

10:00

means she accepts Labour's values. Diane

10:02

Abbott, of course, has been a longstanding

10:05

Labour MP, a trailblazer

10:07

in many areas,

10:10

and done incredible

10:12

work as an MP. She

10:15

is going through and being part of, getting

10:17

to the end of, a disciplinary process

10:20

because of something that she says we

10:22

all know that. You chose to bring

10:24

Natalie Elphick into the parliamentary Labour

10:26

Party, which Diane Abbott is

10:28

not in. Do you think that Natalie

10:30

Elphick's record is more in line with

10:32

Labour values than Diane Abbott's? I

10:35

think we're slightly talking about

10:37

cross purposes. You've got one person who's

10:39

crossed the floor. You accepted her. You

10:42

could have thought that

10:44

she didn't represent your values. I

10:47

think that we shouldn't underestimate

10:50

the number of Tories, Tory

10:52

voters in particular, I think, who

10:55

feel that the Labour Party is now the only

10:58

party that can take the country forward. I

11:00

think that's really important because in the end,

11:02

I actually think that's where most reasonable, tolerant

11:04

people are. Actually, whichever party they support, I

11:06

think they want to do well for themselves,

11:08

their family, their community and their country. I

11:11

am invitational about it. If

11:13

anybody is in that camp, whichever party they may

11:16

have voted for in the past, I

11:18

say this changed Labour Party. Anyone? Well,

11:23

you have to accept the values of the

11:25

Labour Party, but when I say we've got

11:27

to turn the

11:29

page on the chaos and rebuild our country,

11:31

that has to be a national project. It

11:33

has to be something which is broader than

11:35

just the Labour Party. It has to be

11:37

something which reasonably minded people

11:40

can say, well, I may not be tribally Labour,

11:42

but actually, when they're talking about taking the country

11:44

forward, I actually agree with that and I'm prepared

11:46

to sort of be a partner in that. And

11:48

that's the almost more collaborative approach

11:51

that I want to bring into politics

11:53

that I hope we can almost reset

11:55

politics around. of

12:00

this election? Well that will

12:02

be sorted out now within a few days because

12:04

the deadline for candidates is coming. Well look, it's

12:06

not a question of my want. I mean the

12:09

days when the Leader of Labor Party rolls

12:12

up his or her sleeves and gets involved

12:14

in disciplinary cases are well and truly over.

12:16

That's what Jeremy Corbyn did and did very

12:18

badly. It's a matter for the National Executive

12:20

Committee now on the question of candidates and

12:22

that deadline is I think

12:24

the 4th of June or there about. I can't believe you don't have a

12:26

view either way. Well Jeremy

12:30

Corbyn expressed his views on disciplinary matters and

12:32

it led to a very slippery slope. I've

12:35

avoided that. Okay, let's talk

12:37

about foreign affairs. Do you believe that

12:39

Palestine should be a state? Yes

12:42

I do and I think recognition

12:45

of Palestine is extremely important.

12:47

We need a viable Palestinian

12:49

state along a safe and secure

12:51

Israel. And recognition

12:56

has to be part of that

13:00

and it has to be part of the

13:02

process of resolution. I don't think it should come at the end

13:04

because I think there are all sorts of difficulties

13:08

and problems there. It has to come at

13:10

an appropriate the right time in the process

13:12

but I absolutely believe in it.

13:14

And if we are elected into the... Sorry, just

13:17

on the tiny. Spain, Norway and

13:19

Ireland are doing it now. They're going to

13:21

do it next week and the Norwegian Prime

13:23

Minister said it is the only solution that

13:25

can bring lasting peace in the Middle East.

13:27

Can you see yourself doing it in your

13:29

first six months as Prime Minister if

13:31

you're elected? I think

13:33

it needs to be part of the process. There needs to

13:36

be an international consensus but I want to raise to the

13:38

challenge you put to me because I think it's really important.

13:40

In the end, if we are

13:43

privileged to come in to serve, it

13:45

will be our duty, our moral and

13:47

political duty to play our part in

13:49

resolving the long standing issues

13:51

in the Middle East. I think political

13:53

leaders have looked away in the last

13:55

decade or so and I think that's

13:58

in large part why we're in the... terrible,

14:00

terrible situation we are in Gaza.

14:03

I wouldn't do that and it's a

14:05

bad parallel but it's, you know,

14:08

the last Labour government in

14:10

relation to Northern Ireland was prepared

14:12

to take a role in trying

14:14

to resolve something that had been

14:16

going on a very long time.

14:18

Aren't you really looking away now

14:20

by essentially dodging this question about whether

14:22

you're prepared to do this as Labour

14:24

Prime Minister because three European countries are

14:27

doing this now? No,

14:29

we need to have a ceasefire

14:31

in place absolutely straight away. We need

14:33

to stop the hostilities. We

14:35

need to get the

14:37

hostages out. We

14:40

desperately need humanitarian aid to go in.

14:42

There's a catastrophe on the ground. All

14:44

of that has to happen and a

14:46

process has to open for

14:49

peace and for resolution.

14:53

We would be under a strong

14:55

duty as an incoming Labour government to play

14:58

our full part in that alongside

15:00

international partners

15:02

and other countries and that

15:05

has to lead to the two-state solution and

15:07

that means there must be recognition of that

15:10

in the process. And that is, you

15:12

know, that's the way I've approached this

15:15

which is working with other countries trying

15:17

to find the way forward that isn't,

15:19

if you like, you know, just saying

15:21

I want this to happen but is doing the

15:24

hard yards of working out. How do we actually

15:26

bring that about? And I understand these things are

15:28

difficult. I'm just struck by the fact that there's

15:30

no timeframe on that. Even in some of your

15:32

six first steps there's no timeframe. For example,

15:34

on the NHS

15:37

part there's no detail on

15:39

other parts, for example, antisocial

15:41

behaviour. So in your manifesto

15:44

will these be fleshed out

15:46

with detail so it would

15:49

not only be costed but

15:51

measurable and with timeframes attached?

15:54

Yes, of course. Some of this can be done

15:56

straight away, the border

15:58

security command. to deal with

16:00

these small boats can be done straight away. Great

16:03

British energy can be done straight away. I mean there's a bit of time

16:05

to set the

16:10

thing up but it shouldn't take too long. The

16:13

40,000 extra appointments in the

16:15

NHS every week will

16:17

take a bit of time but I would hope that

16:19

within a year or so we've made good on that

16:22

promise, antisocial behaviour. Some of

16:24

that is using better use

16:27

of the existing

16:29

legislation, new legislation so that

16:31

will just need to be passed and

16:34

the ending tax breaks for private schools so

16:36

we can have 6,500 teachers

16:38

in subjects like maths. Again we can do

16:40

that pretty quickly. There of course are only

16:42

the first steps, the missions,

16:45

the real change that we need for

16:47

the country will take longer and that's

16:49

why I've said… Pretty quickly means what?

16:51

First year, second year, first

16:53

term? For the first

16:55

steps there are definitely work to be done on day one.

16:57

There's no question about that. But

16:59

could you deliver this… are you going to deliver the 6,500

17:01

teachers for example in

17:04

the first year? Well

17:06

I think we can certainly make a lot of progress

17:08

in the first year. We'd have to recruit them and

17:10

find the money but yes that will be a day

17:12

one priority. I know how quickly this needs to be

17:15

done. Okay so the AT goes on private school fees

17:17

from day one of a Labour government? Well

17:20

within… as soon as it can be done

17:23

obviously there will have to be financial

17:25

statements etc. Well

17:27

it's a question of the timetable in Parliament

17:29

but these first steps are intended to

17:31

be done straight away. But

17:34

the missions themselves, you know, having an

17:36

economy that's higher sustained growth in the

17:38

G7 felt across the whole country, having

17:40

an NHS that's fit for the future.

17:42

I've said this is a decade

17:44

of national renewal because

17:47

I don't want to pretend that

17:50

this isn't going to take time but it

17:52

will take a sort of laser focus, a

17:54

driving sense of purpose and a government able

17:56

to prioritise and stick to the plan which

17:58

is the complete opposite of what we've seen for

18:00

the last 14 years. There's another way

18:02

of looking at everything, and it's one that Paul

18:04

Johnson of the IFS put to us in very

18:06

stark terms on the programme yesterday, which is that

18:09

you and the Conservatives are signed up to the

18:11

same debt targets, that there's 1% growth

18:13

in public service spending projected for the

18:15

next five years. He says that's going to

18:18

mean cuts in public

18:20

spending, that's going to mean tax rises,

18:22

or it's going to mean changes to

18:24

fiscal promises. Otherwise, you're just essentially going

18:26

to sit back and hope for extra

18:28

growth or hope that things turn out

18:30

better, that there really isn't a false

18:32

alternative. Are you

18:34

being transparent enough with voters at this

18:36

point? Yes, I

18:39

mean, I've read and respect everything Paul

18:41

Johnson says. Of course I do.

18:43

He's right to say you can't sit back and

18:45

hope for growth. That is a massive

18:47

mistake. You have to have a plan

18:49

for growth, which is why we've done

18:52

so much work on how we would

18:54

stabilise the economy with our fiscal rules,

18:56

how we would strip away the planning

18:58

restrictions that are inhibition on growth, how

19:00

we would build one half million homes

19:03

that are a massive driver of growth, how we'd

19:05

get the waiting list down so people can get

19:07

back into work. But growth takes

19:09

time. And I think that's why, as

19:12

he would say, you're left with cuts to

19:14

public spending, tax rises or changes to fiscal

19:16

promises. Do you accept that? I assume given

19:19

it would be a Labour government, it's more likely

19:21

to be tax rises or changes to fiscal promises.

19:24

No, no. I mean, respectfully, I disagree with Paul

19:26

Johnson on this. I do think that we can

19:28

go for growth. I think if you've got a

19:31

comprehensive plan for growth that's thought through and had

19:33

the detailed discussions with partners for growth, we

19:35

can do it. I'm not a defeatist. I don't accept

19:37

that we just have to accept

19:40

that we can't get the growth. We've had significant growth under

19:42

the last Labour government. But you won't straight away. That's the

19:44

point. It will take time. Yeah,

19:47

of course. But we go... One

19:49

of my frustrations in politics is that,

19:52

when I'm looking for nine years now,

19:55

the immediate challenge is what are you going to do today to

19:58

fix the problem? politicians

20:00

say here's the sticking plaster. But

20:03

we haven't got time for the long term because it'll

20:05

take too long. The next year it's the same problem. You

20:07

say what are you going to do? Put a sticking plaster

20:09

on it, don't do the long term. And we go

20:11

round and round in circles. That's why I've set out

20:13

missions. I know that these things

20:15

will take time. I don't accept they'll

20:17

take as long as other people say.

20:19

But if we just do sticking plaster

20:21

and tax rises,

20:24

spending cuts, these are leavers which

20:26

in the end aren't taking our

20:29

country forward. They're fiddling.

20:32

I want to take our country forward and

20:34

the only way to do that is to

20:36

have a comprehensive plan for growth. But it's

20:39

in the sense of a driving sense of

20:41

purpose for government that we stick to. And

20:43

I accept that's a different way of governing.

20:45

It's a different mindset. It will require a

20:48

whole different approach across Whitehall. I accept that's

20:50

a big challenge. But I honestly

20:52

don't think that we can take our country forward

20:54

if we don't change the way we do politics.

20:56

And if it is you six weeks today, will

20:58

you be walking up to a lectern outside Downing

21:00

Street, rain or shine? Yeah,

21:03

absolutely. But I tell you what, I

21:05

will have an umbrella and the image

21:08

of a man who says I'm the only one with

21:10

a plan standing in the rain without an umbrella is,

21:13

to put it politely, pretty farcical.

21:15

The great British weather. I assume that you'd probably be

21:17

in that position. You'd probably have someone to hold an

21:19

umbrella for you. Well,

21:22

you can't say I'm a man with a plan

21:24

and sit in the rain without an umbrella. I'm

21:26

sorry, that just doesn't stack up. Sickest dumber. Thank

21:28

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