0:00

This is a Renew Original Recorder . Hello

0:02

and welcome to the Believe in People podcast . My

0:04

name is Matthew Butler and I'm your host , or

0:06

, as I like to say , your facilitator . Today

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, emmy and Brit award-winning singer Michelle Heaton returns

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to the Believe in People podcast . Discover

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how Michelle's courage and resilience have touched millions

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, leading to saving lives and the establishment

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of a space and hull for her extraordinary

0:20

generosity . From navigating reality

0:23

TV challenges to overcoming body shaming , michelle's

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story illuminates the path to facing adversity

0:27

head-on . Learn Michelle's powerful

0:29

coping mechanisms for handling social media negativity

0:32

and maintaining sobriety through diet and exercise

0:34

. We gain insights into her advice

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for those grappling with addiction and body image issues and

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be inspired by her message of self-acceptance

0:41

and balance . Michelle , welcome

0:44

back to the Believe in People podcast . It has been

0:46

18 months since we last spoke to you about your journey

0:48

through addiction and sobriety , and here

0:50

we are today , another 18 months on and you're nearly

0:52

three years sober now .

0:53

I can't believe it was 18 months ago

0:55

. It's gone really quick . I can't

0:57

believe that it was right in the middle of my

0:59

recovery as well , and we're

1:02

here , like almost 18 months later

1:04

. Um , it's crazy because I remember

1:06

the interview and um , and obviously I've

1:08

I've watched it back and stuff um

1:11

, and whilst

1:13

everything I said at that point was absolutely true

1:16

, like , and my belief system and way

1:18

that I work , recovery hasn't changed , but

1:20

I've evolved , yeah , even more , and

1:22

grown in recovery and it's amazing

1:25

how does that look then ?

1:26

How have you grown ? How have you evolved ?

1:29

I think that I'm

1:31

better at like just letting things go , but

1:35

actually I'm now understanding

1:38

that I'm one of the lucky ones

1:40

so far and that

1:42

doesn't really work like

1:44

that ordinarily . Um

1:46

, relapse is usually

1:48

something that unfortunately happens to

1:50

most people through their recovery and

1:53

I feel extremely privileged

1:55

that I haven't been one of those people yet . But

1:58

how close I could be at

2:00

every given moment , because those relapses

2:02

that I've lived through with other people have

2:05

been on usually minor

2:07

events that have sparked

2:10

these relapses , and how

2:12

fundamentally , if I don't

2:14

keep on top of my recovery or continue

2:17

to talk or things like this , and

2:19

stay connected with people like me , I

2:22

could go down that road just as quickly as they have .

2:24

And I'm not immune to that . I

2:26

think that's the weird thing from the outside perspective

2:28

. Sometimes , once someone has sobriety or has

2:30

recovery , you think , oh

2:32

, that's them sorted now and you don't necessarily

2:34

think of the the day-to-day struggle that

2:36

that person is probably going through to maybe maintain that

2:38

sobriety . And some people struggle more than others . Do

2:41

you ? Are you one of these people that really count the days of

2:43

your sobriety ? Do you have , like I ? Basically I spoke to

2:45

a friend not so long ago and I made a comment and

2:47

he opened an app and he was able to tell me the exact

2:49

minute hour .

2:50

Yes , I've got the same app , probably

2:53

it's out there , it's um , yeah , the

2:55

tools kit yeah that we all have

2:57

because it's got , um , the , you know , our sobriety

2:59

date . I got it out last night actually

3:01

because I was with Liberty X , all the Liberty X last

3:03

night . It was the first time in 8 years and

3:06

Jessica hasn't been drinking and Kevin's not

3:08

been drinking and they've got their own app . They're

3:10

not in , you know , in

3:12

addiction or anything , but they've got 101

3:15

days , 102 , and they're really chuffed for themselves and

3:17

I got mine out in like 1085

3:21

days yesterday or something like that . But

3:23

that was the first time I had looked at the days for quite a while

3:25

.

3:26

So you're not looking at it regularly

3:28

and things like that , I think I used to be

3:30

definitely easily

3:32

the first year , because we

3:34

celebrate those milestones in early

3:36

recovery because it's the toughest time

3:38

.

3:39

I'm more prone to relapse in early recovery

3:41

, so we have to celebrate

3:43

it . It's an achievement because I couldn't get a day

3:45

or an hour you know , if

3:47

I was awake I was drinking , fundamentally

3:50

. So to then have gone

3:52

one day you know that's where you get your chips

3:54

, isn't it ? You know you get your one day , you get your one

3:57

week , then it's a month

3:59

and then it's like 90 days and

4:01

then now , fingers crossed

4:03

, hopefully , it will be now yearly

4:05

, so I don't get a

4:07

six-month chip anymore . I'm hoping

4:10

, you know , please , god , I make it to three years

4:12

and I get my three-month chip . So

4:14

we celebrate it more . And now

4:17

I understand why

4:19

Because I'm not

4:21

in that early recovery bubble and

4:24

that you have to remove yourself from the bubble because you

4:26

have to live life on

4:28

life's terms . You know you

4:30

have to . You have to be able to live in life

4:32

and learn how to live life

4:35

, because you can't control

4:37

it , and that's

4:39

fundamentally why I think addictions

4:42

happen in the first place . We cannot

4:44

deal with outside

4:46

influences and things that are happening around

4:48

us and to us , whether

4:50

it's early trauma or you know a

4:52

situation or a disaster and

4:55

we want an escape . Not

4:58

everybody turns into addictive behavior without

5:00

escape , but I did and

5:02

you know , and that's what I found it was an ease and

5:04

comfort . So it's learning how to deal with

5:06

everyday situations and everyday life

5:08

that I cannot control without reaching

5:11

for that ease and comfort of alcohol have

5:13

you challenged that ?

5:14

um , do you know that mindset into something

5:17

else ? Would you say then , do you know , I think , talking

5:19

about the escapism , um , do

5:21

you know ? Sometimes the case with people with addiction , once

5:24

they give up the alcohol or the drugs , they

5:26

focus that , that , all that attention

5:28

and all that . You know time

5:31

that they invested into substances , into something

5:33

else ? What would that be for you ?

5:35

early recovery I was dabbling in

5:37

a bit of knitting . You know

5:39

they , you know I remember in my rehab

5:41

um , it was like get a hobby

5:43

. We know now , living through it , it

5:46

isn't that simple . Of course , yeah , we can't

5:48

replace an addiction with

5:50

knitting , horse riding

5:52

, I'll take up swimming , like even the gym , you

5:55

know . But what it means is

5:57

that we are actively doing

5:59

stuff that gives us

6:01

a sense of achievement or that feeling

6:03

that we used to get

6:05

from alcohol without drinking . So

6:08

I get my kicks from doing

6:10

a workout . That's what I found . So

6:13

I really enjoy pushing myself

6:15

to the limits , knowing my

6:17

limits and getting out

6:19

of that , and that sets me up for the day . My

6:21

morning prayers , I

6:25

speak to my sober girls , do

6:28

my meetings , aaca

6:30

, whatever , and

6:33

that I put my energy into

6:35

, and my family , obviously , like first and

6:37

foremost you know they didn't have a mum

6:39

, a proper mum really , for like so many

6:41

years and redirecting my efforts

6:44

into family work

6:46

and stuff that I now can do

6:48

.

6:49

That's where it's all driven towards that's one of the things

6:51

I do like to see . Following on you , following your

6:53

journey on Instagram , is seeing all

6:56

these events that you do take your children to , like

6:58

the premieres and stuff like that , like how

7:00

nice are their childhood because I remember when we spoke before

7:02

about you , feeling like you wasn't there as

7:04

a mother . And I know you can never truly

7:07

make up for lost time and things like that , but being

7:09

able to give them that life , I think

7:12

that looks incredible when you're taking them to all these

7:14

places , it looks incredible . It looks incredible

7:16

. It's an Instagram versus reality sort of

7:18

thing .

7:18

Yeah , instagram versus reality , absolutely

7:20

. I know how lucky I am but

7:23

fortunately or unfortunately , my

7:26

kids were born into that way and

7:29

you know , like all these amazing

7:31

places that we get invited to go

7:33

to and to see , that's been part

7:35

of their upbringing . They have no idea

7:38

that that's not real life . Yeah

7:40

, but

7:44

I think Faith , now she's 12 , she's definitely changed her mindset

7:47

and I think she understands what is real and isn't . She's developed into

7:49

such a beautiful young lady and

7:52

that's been because I've been present for the last three years

7:54

as well Like , had I not been

7:56

, it would have been more premieres

7:58

and more parties I dragged my kids to

8:01

because I could drink . Now

8:03

I have the ability to say

8:05

, oh , don't fancy that , we're not going to go

8:07

. So actually , those treats have actually

8:10

been a lot less than and infrequent

8:13

, because I don't need

8:15

feel the need to go to everything

8:17

anymore , because I'm not aiding my drinking yeah

8:19

and so as a family , we discuss which

8:21

ones we'd like to go to , and that's

8:23

really empowering as well for them .

8:25

There's some like the Disney stuff and I guess that looks a lot

8:27

more appealing to them as kids . Yeah

8:30

, of course .

8:31

And now Phase 12 , like she doesn't want to

8:33

go and see , you know , every

8:36

movie that's coming out that's a cartoon , and

8:38

even AJ's kind of over that now . So

8:40

unless it's something that we

8:42

all want to do and the kids really want to do that

8:44

I don't drag them to every event

8:46

, whereas you know , in addiction they

8:49

got to go more events because I would drag them

8:51

to them , because I knew that there was alcohol

8:53

there in a party .

8:54

For me , yeah , and I've been being younger

8:56

you don't really question it as much do you ? I guess you just go along

8:58

with whatever your parents are doing , because , yeah , I guess

9:00

I imagine it's quite funny for them at school

9:02

, like I just go and tell the friends that they're just going

9:05

to a movie premiere or something , because I imagine that's quite

9:07

different to what the lifestyle that their friends have .

9:09

Do you know ? No , absolutely .

9:10

Are they aware of , like the differences

9:13

that they have , I guess , with having you as

9:15

a mother and the things that they get to do in comparison to what other

9:17

people are doing ?

9:18

Faith absolutely does . That's come with age . Yeah

9:21

, aj's a little bit less

9:23

aware , but he

9:25

still understands . You know , like they're 10

9:27

and 12 now and they know that

9:29

not all the kids , their friends

9:31

, get to do what we do . That's why we we actually

9:33

extend the invite , we always ask for extra tickets

9:36

and they rotate their friends so

9:38

we can take them with us if I get invited to premieres

9:40

, we very rarely go as a couple me and Hughie . We

9:42

don't have childcare or you know parents

9:45

that live by , so I tend to take my mates

9:47

and rotate you know all my best mates

9:49

and treat them that way . Um , and

9:51

that's been a pleasure . Can we just acknowledge that ? The

9:53

jacket yes um , because

9:56

I don't always wear a pink lady's jackets

9:58

um to to

10:00

work they're very comfy , but I just

10:02

got handed this and you're wearing yours

10:04

and I thought it would be really impolite if

10:06

I didn't wear it .

10:08

And , and it's so comfy , no well to be fair

10:10

that that takes us to the point I like to talk about . You know

10:12

your impact on the book , on this podcast

10:14

, has been nothing short of extraordinary

10:16

. You know , by sharing your addiction , your recovery , you've not

10:18

only touched , I guess , the hearts of many , but you've

10:21

also you've saved lives . You know , your courage

10:23

in opening up what your experiences has really

10:25

highlighted the struggles that so many people will

10:27

face and , as a result

10:29

, you know , nearly three million people have been reached by our series

10:32

and we've had people here refer

10:34

themselves into our service to help with their alcohol addiction

10:36

as a result of listening to you

10:39

. It's nice , isn't it ? But

10:41

not only your generosity the donations

10:44

from the celebrity mastermind appearance fee to establish

10:46

this studio space has really

10:49

solidified your commitment to making a real difference in

10:51

the lives of us . And , um , I'm

10:53

actually thrilled to show you that , that your episode

10:55

has been instrumentally named as a nomination in the

10:57

radio academy's best new podcast category

11:00

because your clip featured now a submission

11:02

, uh , it's undoubtedly contributed to our recognition

11:04

as a series , uh , but more importantly , has

11:06

amplified the message of , of your message

11:09

and the reach of our podcast oh

11:11

my god , that's a lot it is a lot and

11:14

uh , to be fair , I had to . I had to write that down

11:16

because I wanted to make sure that you really , really

11:18

understood . So thank you , michelle , your courage , your generosity

11:21

, your unwavering support . You have truly made a difference in this

11:23

community and we are deeply grateful to

11:25

have had the opportunity to work with you oh , my god

11:27

, that is a lot to ingest .

11:30

That's amazing guys , well done . But

11:33

no , like , no , seriously , it's amazing

11:35

. Um , I remember when I , when I

11:37

got invited to do the podcast , it was because we

11:39

had a gig in hull and

11:41

so we could make it work and it was just a perfect

11:43

fit and I was finding my feet in recovery and

11:48

you guys were new and

11:50

I would like to add it , absolutely , of course

11:52

, like I'm there anyway like it's not

11:54

like I'm taking a day away from the kids or whatever

11:56

and just fit so perfectly

11:58

. so that's what I call like a higher

12:01

power moment , like i'm'm not a religious

12:03

person but I'd like to think I'm spiritual

12:05

now , whereby I think things happen

12:07

for a reason , and I'm so

12:09

honoured to have been part of that and

12:11

to see this grow . It's

12:14

just that's a lot . That's a lot .

12:16

I like the describing of it being a higher power moment because

12:18

it really was to think of . When we first met , you were at Proud

12:20

and you saw a rainbow jacket as you was

12:22

leaving the stage . You commented that you liked her jackets and

12:24

I went home and I told my wife . I said , oh

12:26

, we saw Libby Hicks . She said , oh , did you speak to Michelle ? I was like

12:29

, oh , no , we didn't get a chance . She said , oh , she's in recovery . I was like

12:31

is she ? Because she's in , she follows like

12:33

a lot of social media stuff

12:38

. And I was like I came into this office , funn it

12:40

. We emailed your agent and it all , just

12:42

, it all just stemmed to

12:44

where we are here , all just that chance meeting of us seeing

12:46

you coming off the stage . Yeah , if it wasn't for those , jackets

12:48

. Yeah , if it wasn't for which I , which I have

12:51

. I have that jacket , it's in

12:53

my kit bag for for stage , if

12:55

we do pride and stuff , so I still

12:57

have that jacket ? I hope , yeah , I'd love

12:59

to see you wear it at another pride festival . It is there

13:02

.

13:02

But , yeah , what

13:04

a chance . Meeting right place , right time

13:06

and look where yous

13:08

are , like all of everything that you've just listed

13:10

there . It's an absolute honour to

13:12

be part of all of that . And

13:14

when , when ? I mean I'd like

13:17

to think most people in recovery when they do talk

13:19

out and do do podcasts and do speak out

13:21

that our end goal

13:24

is

13:26

to reach that one person . Right

13:28

, so the other numbers who followed

13:31

that is just incredible . Yeah , but if we could reach

13:33

one person like I was reached

13:35

, then that's , that's , that's

13:37

our objective of doing this , and also

13:40

, selfishly , if

13:42

I don't do things like this , I

13:44

don't get to let things go or

13:47

to talk about my struggles for you

13:49

isn't ? it absolutely and that's why

13:51

we , that's why it's so important to open

13:53

the narrative of addiction and to talk

13:55

, which is you know . Obviously , one of the ethos's

13:58

of everything that you're doing here is

14:01

to talk about what people are struggling

14:03

with , because it doesn't just reach

14:05

out to other people . It's also something we

14:07

need to carry on our recovery

14:09

.

14:09

Yeah , it's understanding the weight of

14:11

it , I guess , isn't it ? That's a big thing

14:14

.

14:14

That's a lot . Well done on the nomination

14:16

. Thank you very much . That's incredible .

14:17

We're very much looking forward to it . We'll

14:20

see how it goes . We're half confident

14:22

, aren't we as confident as you can be in any award

14:24

situation , really ?

14:25

Who are you up against ?

14:27

There's a lot of BBC in there . To be fair , we

14:31

feel like we are among giants

14:33

when we look at that category listing . But

14:36

even just to be nominated my

14:39

producer gave me the facts of how many podcasts are

14:41

actually put forward even to be shortlisted into that

14:43

that in itself is an achievement , whether

14:45

we win the award or not , I

14:48

think just to say that we have been nominated for this award

14:51

. I don't think I realised the weight of it . To be

14:53

fair , my producer's more clued

14:55

up on this stuff . He told me I was like oh cool .

14:57

He was like no , no this is a really big thing

14:59

. It is a big deal . I

15:07

is a big deal um , I've been to those awards in the past before .

15:08

It's a really big deal and I'm so happy for years . Yeah , it was . I think it was rylan clark that presented

15:10

it last year I saw a video . Yes , I was like oh , this , this isn't this

15:13

is you mean your ? Double , yeah

15:15

, my double , according to that picture , um

15:21

, I guess , I guess , coming back to my question , then

15:23

, really and you've kind of answered this already but

15:25

how important is it to you to use

15:27

your platform to help

15:29

others in your , or have been

15:31

in in your situation ?

15:34

you know I'll be honest at the beginning

15:36

.

15:36

I I didn't want anybody to know um

15:38

I think that's the amazing thing about it , isn't it

15:40

?

15:40

it's it's to do that complete 180

15:43

, to have all that shame about it , so

15:45

much shame , and guilt and remorse and

15:47

and like just

15:49

thinking that if anybody knew the state

15:52

I'm in or knew that I was an addict

15:54

, how would that pan out ? And

15:57

my thought process meant

15:59

divorced , never

16:01

work again , lose all my friends and

16:03

never get booked for another job again . That's

16:06

what my mind takes me to , and

16:08

you know . And so for anybody going

16:10

through addiction , I completely

16:12

and utterly resonate with that way of thinking

16:15

, because that was me . It

16:17

wasn't until people

16:20

found out that I was in

16:22

the priory that then

16:25

I could see firsthand how

16:27

this could go different and

16:30

how actually there was support

16:32

. I thought there'd be no support

16:34

system . I didn't think anybody would get

16:37

what I was going through , because I thought it was just me who suffered

16:39

from this you know , when you're in active addiction

16:41

, you think that you're the only person who can't

16:43

stop . You're the only person that's literally

16:45

on that floor . You know , when you're in active addiction , you think that you're the only person who can't stop . You're the only person that's literally on that

16:47

floor . You know whether it's drinking from a

16:50

massive two litre bottle of vodka

16:52

in my case , that

16:55

you're the only person that is

16:57

there . There's nobody else like you . Everyone's

17:00

different Because

17:02

you compare yourself to everybody else . Different

17:05

, um , because you you don't , because you can pay yourself to everybody else . And but once it was

17:07

kind of public knowledge where I was being treated and what I was being treated for . Um

17:10

, I was very shut off from the outside world . But the

17:13

couple days when I came out , it

17:15

was very supportive and

17:17

it was all we've

17:19

suffered too , and I was like , oh my god , there's people like

17:22

me there . So I was

17:24

then opened up to the idea that

17:26

I wasn't alone , and so

17:28

maybe if that message

17:30

had been out there for

17:32

me to hear that I wasn't

17:35

the only one earlier , who

17:37

knows , I might have asked for help earlier

17:39

. Probably not , because they say that

17:41

unless you're willing to accept help which

17:44

which I totally understand you can't

17:46

receive it , and that's

17:48

kind of how it was , you know , until I was ready to

17:50

accept what help was there , but

17:53

I realized I wasn't alone . So

17:55

then for me to then think

17:58

that way , okay , so

18:00

then if I'm talking

18:02

about it openly , so then , if I'm talking about it openly , then maybe somebody

18:04

who was like me six weeks ago would

18:07

hear that story and get help before it got

18:09

to my stage or before it gets

18:11

worse , because there's so many yets in my

18:13

story . You know , I

18:15

didn't do heroin , I didn't take

18:17

pills , I didn't take

18:20

crack yet crack

18:28

. Yet yeah , had I continued down the road I was at , which was quite dark in itself

18:30

, all of those yet potentially would have happened by now because

18:32

the drugs , the alcohol , stopped working , stopped

18:36

working for me . So you move on to something else to

18:38

get the same feeling or talking about

18:40

that escapism yeah how else can I escape

18:42

? and what sort ?

18:43

of escapism . Can this new substance ?

18:45

yeah , made you know because like it's not

18:47

, it's not like I became a heavy drinker

18:49

and then and then go right

18:52

, in a few months time I'm going to go on to cocaine yeah

18:55

it was like I drank

18:57

a lot but I'd never touch cocaine

19:00

. Oh my god , that's , that's a god , I would never do that

19:02

. And then that came . So

19:05

me , me swearing off , I'd never touch x , y

19:08

and z you don't know , do you ? we don't

19:10

know , and if I ever you

19:13

know , they say live , each day is a time . Because

19:15

I've only got today , because I can't tell

19:17

you tomorrow I'll be , I'll be clean and sober , um

19:20

, I can tell you , I hope I'm not gonna

19:22

be and I'm gonna do everything in my power not to be

19:24

. And right now , sitting here with you , I don't

19:26

have any urge to drink or use

19:29

, but say that relapse came

19:31

it very quickly , elevates

19:33

to those .

19:34

Yes .

19:35

That hadn't happened before , but will

19:37

happen if I continue .

19:39

There's a couple of things that I think , talking about

19:41

the isolation , one of the lads

19:43

that I mentored said to me was at

19:45

the church last week and was talking about the community

19:47

area and he said you know , he said the

19:50

opposite of addiction and isolation

19:52

is community and connection . And I

19:54

was like , ah , there's this little penny drop

19:56

moment where I was like , hey , you're absolutely right there and

19:58

it is a lot of the isolating , as

20:00

you've said in your story to us , like you

20:03

, just shoot yourself off and drink .

20:04

Yeah , isolation .

20:06

The isolation and the drink and those things go hand

20:08

in hand . But for recovery it

20:10

is about the community . It is about the connection

20:12

. It is about having the support . I

20:14

guess reality TV has obviously played a huge part

20:16

in your professional life and you've got a

20:18

big break on . You've got your big break

20:20

on pop stars . Since we last

20:22

spoke to you , it's

20:29

fascinating to see how you've embraced challenging experiences like dancing on ice and the celebrity

20:31

sas , who dares wins , where you got uh whiplash and swamp eye as well , oh my , god , I'm wrecked

20:34

. Do you feel there's an element of intentionally choosing

20:36

difficult challenges and , if so , do you see

20:38

any parallels between this approach and the journey

20:40

of recovery , where individuals often

20:42

face tough tasks head on

20:45

.

20:45

Yeah , great question . Actually

20:48

there is a parallel and

20:50

I think for

20:53

me , pushing myself

20:56

in those things and

20:59

having it a goal helps my recovery

21:01

, undoubtedly , whether

21:04

it's running a marathon , a half marathon , you

21:06

know . For me obviously it was SAS and Dan's Ice

21:08

. They're the extremes , not everybody gets to experience something

21:11

like that . But pushing yourself to

21:13

an end goal , having something to work

21:15

towards , definitely

21:17

helps recovery , especially early stages , and

21:20

I was able to do those things . So

21:22

, pre getting sober , I've

21:24

auditioned for those and danced

21:26

on ice twice before . There

21:29

was no way that they would have hired

21:31

me because the last time I auditioned I was drunk . I

21:34

didn't think I'd be a drunk , I had no idea

21:36

they knew . But I had just had , you

21:38

know , a drink in the car park before I went

21:40

on the ice . How dangerous that would have been

21:43

, so dangerous . And

21:45

at that time , through addiction , I was like

21:47

, well , screw them , you know , what do

21:49

they know ? And I'd

21:51

be angry , really angry

21:53

, that I wasn't getting things that I wanted or that

21:55

I thought I wanted . But , no , like

21:57

looking back . Of course they're not going to hire me . So

21:59

those two particular shows was something

22:02

that I wanted to prove myself that

22:04

I could do . I

22:09

found out by then being accepted on

22:11

those shows how alcohol

22:14

and drugs had been held in me back so

22:16

long . It proved

22:18

not that it needed to be proven because

22:20

I understood , but it showed me that

22:23

for so many years , so

22:25

many opportunities would have been missed

22:27

. Yeah , because

22:29

of my addiction , when at that

22:32

time I was so

22:34

angry that I drank on that

22:36

so it got worse . So

22:39

doing those things to push myself was

22:42

to prove to me that I could do it and

22:46

I utterly failed at both . So

22:50

, yeah , I mean , I did everything , everything

22:52

and more . The experience

22:54

doing both those shows was incredible , very

22:57

, very different .

22:58

Is Celebrity SAS as hard as it looks

23:00

? Because on camera , you know , it's

23:03

kind of one of the . It reminds me there was a celebrity that one and

23:05

I'm a celebrity , get me out of here before

23:07

, and I think it was Harry

23:10

Redknapp and he said something along the lines of

23:12

he thought that they filmed it and then cut it

23:14

, and then they all had bacon sandwiches in the bricks

23:16

. He said that's what it is . Throughout

23:18

the full thing . Celebrity SAS

23:20

? Is

23:23

it as harsh as it looks ? It's worse . Is it worse

23:25

?

23:26

It is worse and I did do my research before

23:28

going on it , I

23:30

mean , I accepted it anyway before . I did my research

23:33

, but I found out from , like Harry Katona

23:35

and . Jake Quiginton and a couple of other people

23:37

that I knew had been on it , that it was going to

23:39

be worse than what I saw . Okay , but

23:42

nothing really prepares you . As

23:45

soon as we went into the jungle , the

23:48

producers , the cameras , and there's

23:50

loads they're

23:52

all camouflaged . You don't talk to them , they

23:55

don't pull you aside . For , for , for off

23:57

you know , camera meetings and stuff like that . They

23:59

do not get involved . Wow , the only people

24:02

in that jungle then is

24:04

is is yourselves and the four guys

24:06

. That is it . That's all we

24:08

talk to them and each other . And

24:10

there was so many things that aren't shown

24:13

, like the sleep deprivation . Every

24:16

hour they would get you up . We were on

24:18

night watch , so every hour you'd

24:20

you know two people would be on watch and then

24:22

you'd go and wake up the next couple of people that were doing

24:24

it . So by I think I lasted day three

24:27

. By that time we're all hallucinating

24:30

and and tired and knackered , as well

24:32

as doing that day's thing . The

24:34

backpacks that we all wear are

24:36

the same weight , no matter who you are

24:38

. That was

24:41

my downfall . I couldn't move with the

24:43

power . Me

24:45

and Melinda Messenger it weighed

24:47

like half of our body weight . We

24:49

couldn't walk with it , let alone climb a

24:51

mountain , so I kind of figured that

24:54

we were going to be going quite early on . Well

24:56

, at least you did it , though , but I loved it . In

24:58

a weird , weird , messed up kind

25:00

of way . I absolutely loved it .

25:02

Do you know what ? I think it's just

25:04

one of the things where , like I guess , like anything

25:06

with TV , when

25:09

you're watching a drama

25:12

, there's the cut , there's the start again , and

25:15

you just kind of even when you watch it on tv like is it as hard as as

25:17

it looks ? Yeah , but with those shows , I think

25:19

, since having little snippets of what

25:21

things like the jungle could be like and and that

25:24

it is one of those where I did have to question . I

25:26

was like no , I think it could be as brutal as

25:28

it seems , you know ? No , it is definitely

25:30

far from the glamour that you got on Dancing on Ice

25:32

as well .

25:33

I mean , yeah , I mean , there were very , very different things Very

25:35

different shows . Yeah , I think , like

25:37

SAS was a condensed

25:40

hardest thing I've done , but

25:42

Dancing on Ice for

25:44

my body was the hardest thing I've done . Yeah

25:47

, long process , the training

25:49

I loved it Like I loved

25:51

every single thing about it . I loved

25:53

being on ice . I just wasn't good at it , even

25:56

though I loved it . And I

25:59

think , like I come to terms with the fact halfway

26:01

through training that I wasn't going to be awesome

26:03

, so I just gave it

26:05

away . And that's the power of recovery right

26:08

, giving it away and going . You know

26:10

what ? This is everything that I dreamed

26:12

of . I always want to do dance and ice . I know

26:14

I'm not going to be amazing , so let's just

26:16

make the most of it . I put in 120%

26:20

effort to end up to every training

26:22

on time , unlike some people that

26:25

get away with whatever they get away with . You know

26:27

we won't rename people . There's always

26:29

people like that in the past . And

26:32

usually they do . Well , you know . But

26:34

anyway , no , not angry at

26:36

all .

26:37

Give it away , not bitter at all .

26:39

Give it away .

26:40

You see on the podcast and

26:42

just took it for what it was .

26:43

And .

26:44

I had the best time , just age

26:46

and my body , you know , through menopause

26:49

and addiction , like

26:51

you , a professional

26:53

ice skater telling me something in here to

26:55

get down to the feet in a nanosecond just

26:57

wasn't going to happen . I had to process

27:00

it , give it a bit of a cuddle down there and

27:02

then tell it what to do to the feet . And by the time I got to the

27:04

feet the feet were wobbling .

27:05

It just didn't work for me . It's not easy . It's one

27:08

of the ones where you see a lot of those shows and and

27:10

I often question when people come on , and it's like

27:12

, when they come on and they're able

27:14

to hit something perfect , they're like , oh , I've never done

27:16

this before in my life .

27:17

Bollocks Exactly .

27:18

Am I allowed to swear ?

27:19

Yeah .

27:20

Absolute bollocks .

27:21

I know it's bollocks , I

27:24

know that is bollocks . They've been training for

27:26

a year already , or something like that , or

27:29

skated in childhood , I think the people who produce the

27:31

shows and who make the shows have to have

27:34

a cast of people who are

27:36

going to be good and bad .

27:38

It wouldn't be a good show if everyone was bad

27:40

.

27:40

So it is unfair absolutely

27:42

. Because we're not starting on level

27:44

playing field here . Like I

27:47

am not an ice skater , I can

27:49

dance on flat

27:51

floor without blades , but

27:54

it's very different on ice . But

27:56

there was a lot of people who had that training and

27:59

some people who had the training that actually weren't

28:01

as good as some of the other people , so

28:04

it's all relative isn't it but

28:06

? Yeah , there's definitely those people .

28:09

I like how they call it reality TV as well , though

28:11

, when you do think it's like how much of it is the reality

28:13

of it and how much isn't it .

28:16

Do you know what Dan's eyes is ? Brutal though

28:18

the injuries that we were

28:20

, all that most of us had . And

28:23

you know I remember Carly , the

28:26

moment that she was left , left the

28:28

show . She skated through

28:31

a dislocated shoulder

28:33

like a battered ribcage

28:35

. She had to have surgery on that and

28:38

she skated through that

28:40

pain . We were all in pain

28:43

. It wasn't easy . And

28:45

you come out and you smile Whereas

28:48

you know , as a viewer of Dancing on

28:50

Ice before the show , now

28:52

watching it , I can't really

28:55

love it as much as I did , yeah

28:57

and because I know how painful the

28:59

people who are doing it are going through . Yeah , it's

29:02

yeah it's harsh it

29:04

is harsh . I mean to get for the professional

29:07

ice skater , to get a celebrity ready for

29:09

professional ice skating . It

29:11

must be so frustrating . Yeah , so they

29:13

can be hard on us and like , although

29:15

we're all friends , it

29:18

could be tough loving

29:20

yeah , I can imagine yeah

29:22

, and lots of fallouts yes , well , that's

29:24

it , isn't it really ?

29:25

it's , it's , it's it's . Do you know ? It's like anything

29:27

, though when you say it's kind of turned

29:29

it for a little bit , it does . You can watch . So

29:31

you , I call it suspending your disbelief , and

29:33

then , once you kind of know the in and workings

29:36

of it and how it all works and you can kind of understand

29:38

the things of how it looks backstage and stuff . I've

29:40

had similar experiences with things before where I've kind of it's

29:42

just took the the shine off the apple a little bit and it's

29:44

not as easy to enjoy as as it used to be

29:46

yeah , it's the same as big brother for

29:48

me because I did big brother celebrity big brother

29:50

and so I know how it works um

29:52

. And now , having

29:55

a bean on it and watching it , I know

29:57

how manipulating the edit can be that's it and

29:59

what they're doing , you know , and how they edit

30:01

situations so that the

30:03

people who aren't getting on yeah , like we

30:06

didn't have the whole , there was a secret parlor

30:08

to do our makeup . They do that now yeah , like they

30:10

all have their hair and makeup done , their nails , and that wasn't

30:12

like we were roughing it , it

30:14

wasn't like that . When I did it , it was proper .

30:16

Yeah , I've got a friend I

30:18

was on um . He was on a love island years ago

30:20

and he recently went on as part of the all-star

30:23

love island and all right , who's ? that

30:25

he's called adam maxted uh adam

30:27

, yeah , yeah , yeah I've , um , I've

30:29

been for a few years now but talking

30:32

to him about his experience and

30:35

we met in December and I said to him like how

30:37

do you feel about going in this time round ? He

30:39

said , well , I've got that experience now . He said I'm

30:41

not going to let do you know what you were saying then about the

30:44

manipulation of it ? He went I'm not going to let

30:46

the producers manipulate the story . I'm going

30:48

to go in self

30:56

as possible . Yeah and um , I didn't watch it . Um , my wife watched it and she said it's said you can tell

30:58

the age difference between him and the rest of them ? yeah , because he was in there for , I'm gonna

31:00

say , more genuine and authentic reasons

31:02

than other people would have gone in for no , absolutely

31:04

yeah , because I watched that and you could see that

31:06

he was able to shut down the um , the

31:09

manipulation and things like that , that probably

31:11

when he went in the first time around , it was quite

31:13

easy for him to yes to get caught upon because

31:15

you're just in there , you're a young lad and you're just doing what the

31:18

producers are telling you to do , but they're just trying to create

31:20

good tv and that's the era .

31:21

Like what faith . My daughter , who's 12

31:23

, is growing up like what

31:25

. What do you want to do ? Faith , I'm going to be on

31:28

love islands . Yeah , I mean she , she

31:30

might have kind of gone past that stage now

31:32

.

31:32

But I get what you're saying .

31:33

But that is what

31:35

they aspire to be they aspire to be yeah , yeah , Because

31:37

from that . We've had some you know amazing

31:40

people come out from shows like that and Geordie

31:42

Shore , like Vicky Pattinson and

31:44

some people who have gone on to do you know great work

31:47

. Yeah , and I'm not knocking them for that and

31:50

they're the lucky ones , but it really isn't

31:52

like that . You don't do a reality

31:54

show and then all of a sudden you've got your rest

31:56

of your life . Those people who are still here

31:58

work hard .

31:59

Yeah .

32:01

Work really hard at development , because it's not just

32:03

a golden ticket .

32:04

Yes , and I think it's having that understanding

32:07

of that . And going back to Adam , he was going in

32:09

there to further his professional wrestling career

32:11

.

32:11

Yeah .

32:11

And he knew what he was going in for . He knew that wasn't his meal

32:13

ticket .

32:14

Yeah .

32:14

But he said there's so many people that do go in and

32:16

you look at reality TV and you look at , obviously

32:19

, the suicides that have come with .

32:21

Love .

32:21

Island and you know talking about the aftercare of

32:23

being on a reality show like that , because you've said

32:25

people think that is their meal ticket

32:27

. They'll do the show and realistically it's only

32:29

for a year and then the next

32:31

series is there and you're not famous anymore

32:34

. You're kind of you're kind of forgotten about , and it's all about the

32:36

new cast .

32:37

So that is the you know shame of shows

32:40

like that yeah , it is , and I think , like you've

32:42

just when you mentioned the suicide

32:44

as well , like I lost a friend , sophie from

32:47

Newcastle , and and

32:50

a couple of other people who I knew via

32:52

friends , um , that have been

32:54

in the Zork places or taken their life . Um

32:56

because

32:59

the shows

33:01

and the , the image

33:04

it perceives is all of

33:06

this will be the end waiting for you , and

33:08

it is for a while Like they will get everything

33:10

they want , they'll get paid an absolute fortune Like

33:13

it wasn't like that in my day at Liberty X . We

33:15

didn't get paid to turn up to clubs . We went because it was

33:17

free drink and

33:20

that was it it was free drink . I was there but

33:23

like these guys get handed money

33:25

and then it stops because

33:28

the new lot are out and then

33:30

that's a danger zone . There's no aftercare

33:32

, there's no one looking after their needs

33:35

, there's just themselves , probably

33:38

pissed it all away by then , not

33:40

really got anything to show for it , thinking it was going to always

33:43

be there . Oh , I'll be the next Vicky Pattinson

33:45

. X , y , z , and it doesn't happen . And

33:48

then they get to dark places and it's

33:50

unfortunately our system that's

33:52

chewed them up , spat

33:55

them out and that's what needs to change .

33:56

And there's there's an age thing as well . Like if I , if I went

33:59

in there at 32 and if I went on a

34:01

show like that , I'd have that understanding . But I think

34:03

when you've got people going in on shows like that that are only

34:05

18 , 19 , 20 , so young

34:07

, they're not going to understand it . They know and

34:09

I think we do live in a , in a world

34:11

where I think it's almost like I thought

34:13

I was going to be a millionaire by the time I was 19

34:16

, or something like that is the way , I still think I'm going to be

34:18

now . I'm not , though , contrary to

34:20

opinion the world , the way the world is presented

34:22

to you , it's almost like you kind of fed this dream that

34:24

you're going to be famous , you're going to be a rock star , and then

34:26

there's this harsh reality . When I

34:28

said , you know , I remember I think 2000

34:31

now , when I got my first job , it was like receiving a , a warm

34:34

cup of piss in the face . You know where . You realize

34:36

, oh , this is what life is . Yeah

34:38

, I was doing a manual labor job and I absolutely

34:40

hated and it was just that . That was the reality of it

34:42

and I think in a way that led to my own

34:44

depression at that time . And my own anxiety is because

34:46

school , um

34:49

, pop culture , the media had kind of

34:51

almost laid out to me that that my

34:53

life wasn't going to be like that yeah I don't

34:55

know how or why , I don't know if it's just my own personal experience

34:57

, but I just thought life was going to be different

34:59

. Right , in a way . You go from school , your

35:02

education , and the

35:04

path is out in front of you , and then it's like you just come to the end

35:06

of it and there's just fields of nothingness and

35:08

it's like where do I , where do ? I go now what I do

35:10

now , because everything's been dictated to you for all that

35:13

time .

35:13

Yeah , so I mean for me

35:15

I'm the other side , where

35:18

I had a dream .

35:19

Yeah .

35:20

And I knew what my dream was , and

35:23

I set out to do it , and I'm very , very lucky that

35:26

I did work hard , though , Like it wasn't

35:28

handed to me and I did

35:30

all of those jobs that

35:32

you can ever think of to you

35:34

know , in the meantime , while I wasn't doing what

35:36

I would love and I really thought that was it , it was the end

35:38

of the road . And then pop stars came along and changed my

35:40

life . How old was you when pop stars came along ? 20

35:43

.

35:43

Yeah .

35:44

And that was , and the

35:46

audition for

35:48

it . The advertisement in the stage

35:50

newspaper was 17

35:54

to 21

35:56

. And I was coming up to 21

35:58

soon , so I knew that

36:01

that was . I

36:03

was coming to the end of

36:05

my able period .

36:06

It's a very short window , isn't it ? Well , it was .

36:08

I think the narrative definitely changed with

36:11

. Youtube and all of that .

36:12

People don't know themselves .

36:14

Any age , any age could crack in at any

36:16

time , which is great . But back

36:18

then it was literally you had to be a

36:21

kid and so I

36:23

had been in and out of bands and solo

36:25

singing and doing competitions since

36:27

I was about 14 . Loads

36:31

of auditions that I got from the stage I saved

36:33

money , work to go down to London to audition for it just happened that that one . I got

36:35

from the stage , I saved money , work to go down to London to audition , for it just happened that

36:37

one I got further along and

36:41

so I managed to get into that bubble

36:43

. And

36:46

, yeah , it was nothing like I thought it would

36:48

be , and not that it was awful .

36:51

I loved it . But yeah , so for

36:53

you that must .

36:55

I can't relate to that because I

36:58

didn't have that , so

37:00

I don't know how .

37:02

No , it's weird because , again , you

37:04

don't necessarily know what you want to do at 18

37:07

. And I think this is why it is quite easy

37:09

to think , oh , I want to do this and I want to do this , like the more

37:11

glamorous things and anything that's going to be handed

37:13

to you , and then , when it's not , it is difficult , but like

37:15

, say how hard it is for , for I imagine

37:17

you know your daughter will experience this maybe in a few

37:19

years time of maybe she doesn't

37:21

know what she wants to do yet she has no idea exactly

37:23

. And then there's the pressures when you get 18 . It's almost

37:26

like it's quite funny now , because I look back and

37:28

think no one expects me to know what I've wanted to do really

37:30

. But in my own head I was thinking everyone is

37:33

looking at me like , yeah , you're 18 , you should know what you want to go

37:35

, do , go and do it . But that was our era . Life isn't like that

37:37

.

37:37

Yeah , yeah , I remember like on work

37:39

experience in like

37:42

I don't know how old were we at work experience

37:44

I mean ? Early like I want

37:46

to say , as soon as we started senior school , we started

37:48

and they did . I don't even know that

37:50

they did it now and I

37:53

remember having a clear insight

37:55

with school of where I wanted

37:57

to go , because that was the career

37:59

path I was going towards yeah , I mean I hadn't

38:01

got a clue . Yeah , I remember doing

38:03

like I worked with the nursery

38:05

and then I did work experience in a beauty

38:07

salon a hair salon .

38:08

That's it . Childcare beauty yeah

38:10

, yeah , it was like that because it was gvnqs

38:13

yeah a gvnq of business or beauty

38:15

. Well , beauty sounded more interesting . So I was going

38:18

to be an electrician or a plumber or something . Yeah

38:21

, tradesman , yeah , it's kind of things that was set out

38:23

in front of you isn't it funny , um , and

38:25

now , god , you could the opportunities are endless

38:27

for people . I think now but now there's almost made

38:29

up yeah , I look at things

38:31

like is that a thing , is that a qualification

38:33

? Yeah , how does that work ? There's an influencer degree

38:35

or something I'm like oh

38:38

, that is mental , mental michelle

38:40

, you've been um , you know , both

38:43

fat shamed and skinny shamed . I've

38:45

seen recently uh , some of the

38:47

comments that I have seen on your

38:49

social media have been things such as eat

38:51

more , you're too skinny , you

38:54

look awful . 20

38:56

years ago , you had the opposite and you was called

38:58

the fat one in liberty x um

39:01

, I've got here on the record that you

39:04

said I was so ashamed I took diet

39:06

pills , I binged and made myself

39:08

sick and , as a direct result , I live with a heart

39:10

problem and it will never get better . I

39:12

just want to talk to you about this , as you've previously developed an

39:14

eating disorder and you've said that

39:17

the same feeling can come back to you when you hear negative

39:19

remarks about your current physical appearance

39:22

yeah talking about instagram

39:24

, talking about social media , talking about being influencers

39:27

what is that like to have

39:29

people commenting on on

39:31

these personal aspects of life ? I saw a picture

39:33

you posted recently and you put loose

39:36

skin and all and

39:38

I was like I thought it's a bit . Obviously you're

39:40

taking it on the chin in that sense , but I

39:42

could see that this is something that someone has said to you and you

39:44

was turning it back and making it into a caption of your own

39:46

picture , right , that's very clever of what you

39:48

said .

39:50

I didn't actually have that , but

39:52

I have had that . Yeah yeah

39:55

, and I do do that and

39:58

that's my own fault in Downfall

40:00

because then you feel like you've got to prove something .

40:02

Is it pre-empting possible comments that

40:04

could be made your way ?

40:07

It's like I don't know why I wanted to do

40:09

that . I don't know what came over

40:11

me . I was looking back at the pictures , that particular

40:13

picture picture . Recently I was looking back at pictures of the

40:15

holiday and they were all amazing

40:18

. And then , um , I was

40:20

looking at the this picture that

40:23

I had done . I was on the beach alone . Kids hated

40:25

the sand , so they were just in the pool and , uh

40:27

, hugh just didn't want to move . So I

40:30

, I took myself to the beach and and I

40:32

usually was there for about an hour just listening to podcasts

40:34

or listening to music , and I was taking my

40:36

own little selfies , you know , in an arty way

40:38

, and none of them I used

40:41

on social media . And I

40:43

thought , why didn't I use that ? And I look back and I go , oh , that's why

40:45

. And I'm like

40:47

, I

40:49

really like that picture and

40:52

I thought , do you know what ? I'm just going to put it

40:54

up and I'm going to point out it

40:56

before somebody else does , and that's it

40:58

. Yeah

41:02

because I really like that picture of me . It's okay to say I really like that picture

41:04

of me , because there's like 10,000 that you don't like . And

41:08

then I was like right , yeah , I'm just going to point it out before

41:10

anybody else can , and then

41:13

understand how a woman

41:15

would feel if it was them . Yeah , and

41:17

just put it into perspective that all the other

41:19

photos that I put up are

41:21

me as well . They're just different angles . I'm

41:24

jumping , I'm stretching , you know like

41:26

that piece of me is there . I

41:29

just choose not to put it on display

41:31

. It

41:36

doesn't mean I'm ashamed of it , just means like I don't want everyone to see my skin .

41:38

Yeah , and it's as simple as that . Yeah , I just think

41:40

it's . It's one of them things where how

41:43

difficult is it putting yourself out there in

41:45

that way , though ? Do you find

41:48

it challenging ? Do you worry about the comments that are

41:50

going to be brought your way ?

41:52

I only I think when

41:54

I put myself out there I expect

41:56

whatever's going to happen . Yeah

41:59

, it's when it catches

42:01

me off guard , like if

42:03

I'm just putting up a picture or

42:05

me working out . Usually it's when

42:07

I'm working out I'll get the comments about

42:10

I'm looking too skinny old

42:13

, have I , I eaten ? And

42:15

that catches you off guard , because what my

42:18

husband sees and what I'd

42:20

like to think I see is a strong woman

42:22

yeah I do work hard , I

42:25

do like lifting weights and I

42:27

eat good food . I do

42:29

not deprive myself of anything and

42:32

I love food . Yeah , I mean , that's

42:34

why I battled with food , because I love food , yeah

42:36

, um , and I I

42:38

can't get myself into a situation

42:40

where I used to be with food , so I'm

42:42

just aware of what I eat , because

42:45

that can make a spiral into something

42:47

else . But getting back to the comments

42:50

, so when it , when it throws me

42:52

like that , it

42:54

does hit a nerve in the same

42:56

way that the fat shaming

42:58

comments hit me back . Then

43:00

I can turn to food

43:03

or I cannot eat yeah

43:05

so when

43:08

they say you look too thin or

43:11

you don't look this way or you look that , I'm like

43:13

what do they want me to do ? Yeah

43:15

, do they want me to get fat

43:17

? I don't want to get fat , like

43:19

without being disrespectful , like

43:21

I don't want to feel uncomfortable . I

43:24

don't want to get fat for somebody else , like I didn't

43:26

want to get skinny for anybody else , like I didn't

43:28

get skinny for anybody or for me . This

43:31

is like my natural body , working

43:33

out , eating well and not drinking

43:35

. Yeah , I never knew what a natural body

43:37

looked like for me because I was too busy drinking

43:39

corpus amounts of alcohol , and but those

43:41

comments do catch me off guard and

43:43

it can , it can trigger me in the same way

43:46

that I was when I was fatter and

43:48

bigger sorry , bigger that

43:51

I turned to food for ease and comfort

43:53

yeah and obviously

43:55

my most recent addiction is alcohol

43:57

. Now I'm not saying that

44:00

those comments trigger me to want to

44:02

drink , but it's the same

44:04

trigger process and

44:07

so I can deal with it . I'd

44:09

like not to have to deal with it . I'd

44:11

like not to have to recognize that the trigger is gone

44:14

off in my mind , that switch that we have as addicts

44:16

, and that switch has gone . And

44:18

then you're looking for something for ease and

44:20

comfort . Now

44:22

I recognise it and I

44:25

really try not to

44:27

comment back . That's

44:29

hard for me .

44:30

Yeah , that would be the hardest part .

44:32

And have your own back .

44:33

I used to do that . All the time I got myself into awful

44:35

scrapes , awful trouble

44:38

.

44:38

Oh my God , but why shouldn't you be able to , you know , stand

44:40

up for ? Yourself in a way , that's the annoying

44:42

thing , isn't ?

44:43

it Well .

44:44

You kind of are almost expected to just be

44:46

the bigger person .

44:47

If somebody said it to my face

44:49

and give them one back .

44:51

And that's the irony that they wouldn't say it

44:53

to you first .

44:54

Exactly that . So you've hit the nail on the head . So

44:57

now I recognise that . Those

44:59

people who are saying those things , I

45:01

have no idea what they're going through . I

45:06

have no idea their pain or their suffering or what they're dealing with , or

45:08

whether they've had an eating disorder , or

45:10

whether they can't lose weight , or

45:12

whether they work out and they're not seeing results

45:15

, or they've just gone through divorce

45:17

, whatever it might be there was

45:19

comments usually are derived from

45:21

something that they're not happy with themselves

45:24

, and that stops me from

45:26

retaliating and that helps me

45:28

give it away . Yeah , and that's now

45:30

how I can see it . I mean , three years ago I would

45:32

never have seen it like that you know , at

45:34

all . I wouldn't have cared he

45:36

was saying those comments . I would have been

45:38

a bright bitch back , but

45:41

I can't see them , so

45:43

you don't know what's going on , and that helps me deal with

45:45

that .

45:45

Yeah .

45:46

But yeah , it does . It switches that trigger , whereas

45:48

you know , before , in

45:51

early noughties , in the beginning of the band

45:53

, when I was feeling

45:56

bigger and being told I was bigger from

45:58

people within our management

46:00

and that

46:02

I should think about losing weight , I

46:05

ate more and then

46:07

to punish myself from eating more I would

46:09

be sick . And

46:12

then I got myself addicted

46:14

to diet pills and ephedrine um

46:17

, not just from that comment , like I

46:19

had this before yeah , yeah um , but

46:22

that's where I turned to

46:24

for food , the way that I turned to alcohol you've

46:28

.

46:29

I've got it here that you said , um , I wouldn't say I had body

46:31

dysmorphia , but there are definitely things that I've wanted

46:33

to change . I think I've always had a lot of self-esteem

46:35

, and that was really hard being in the public eye , especially

46:37

during liberty x . What

46:40

other coping mechanisms you found most effective when dealing

46:42

with the negative comments or pressure from social media

46:44

? Do you know , and have they evolved over time

46:46

? Or is it a case of just being the bigger

46:49

person ?

46:50

a bit of everything I do think age yeah

46:52

definitely educates one

46:55

on how

46:58

to deal with negativity . Um

47:00

, you know , like faith is 12

47:03

and and she's seen the negativity

47:05

that I that I've had because she's

47:07

on social media . You can't stop it . You

47:09

know that's their era , um , but

47:12

she can now see the last three years how I've

47:15

dealt with it , so hopefully that

47:17

builds well with her going up . Um

47:19

, but I think age definitely

47:22

represents how I deal with it and

47:24

how I feel about it . But

47:27

I have no idea how the youth of

47:29

today and the people in the media now

47:31

who are newer cope

47:34

with it , because it's everywhere . Yeah , like in

47:36

early northeast . For us it

47:38

was just the newspapers on

47:41

online a little bit , but it was the newspapers

47:43

. You know , if I did something , got drunk , it

47:45

was on the front page of the daily star . The next

47:47

day , um and

47:49

um , and I was . I

47:52

was so elated that I was a pop star . Any

47:55

attention was good for me . I kind

47:57

of seeked it .

47:59

Oh .

47:59

I definitely seeked it . If

48:01

I went out , I'd wear less clothes so

48:03

that I would be on the front of the star , and

48:15

whilst that's not great , I admit that has been a cornerstone of my notoriety

48:17

in the business and being able to work unfortunately , it's that

48:19

old press is good press as well

48:21

isn't it yeah ?

48:22

exactly , but with that puts you there then for scrutiny

48:24

.

48:24

Yeah .

48:24

Because when they lift you up , they tear you down

48:27

, and so I had both of that , and

48:30

that's why today's youth who

48:32

are coming out of those shows that Love Island and things like

48:34

that they're brought

48:36

down quicker and more

48:38

abruptly because that height gets

48:40

quicker and more intense straight

48:42

away .

48:43

And the voice is amplified as well . If you've gone

48:45

back to the newspapers , you was on the front cover of

48:47

the Daily Star that was one journalist's

48:50

story and then obviously

48:52

it'd be public opinion after that . but you didn't hear the opinion

48:54

after that , whereas now you hear the story

48:56

and then you can actually see the public opinion

48:58

after that as well , with the backlash for social media . I think

49:00

we've spoke about um bullying

49:03

. Do you know before you know you know children were bullied

49:05

during school hours and at least , at least , they got a reprieve

49:07

from it over the weekend and on an evening .

49:09

Yeah , but now it's because of social media .

49:10

It's relentless , it's online bullying , it's trolling and it's it's

49:12

because , of social media . It's relentless , it's online bullying , it's trolling and

49:14

it's anonymous accounts . And , funny enough

49:16

, some of the comments that you see on your Instagram

49:19

if you actually click on the profiles , they're all like anonymous

49:21

profiles .

49:22

The people without any pictures . Yeah , I do do that now and again .

49:24

They're accounts that are set up specifically to troll

49:26

and upset other people Specifically and you just

49:29

think how do you have the time ?

49:30

in your life to do that . Yeah , I mean

49:32

the other time I've clicked on it right and

49:34

I've gone to their profile Because

49:38

look , look , look , don't get me wrong there

49:40

are a lot less negative

49:42

comments .

49:43

I'd say 95% of the people that

49:45

follow me , follow me for a reason Positivity

49:48

, and that's what .

49:48

I'd like to think . I think people who are following me because

49:51

they hate me is ridiculous . Don

49:54

people who are following me because they hate me is ridiculous . Don't follow me . I'd rather have less

49:56

followers , because that's not the point of following somebody . Why follow someone if you hate

49:58

what ?

49:58

it's often when your posts come up in the algorithms

50:01

, like sometimes the comments are from people that aren't actually

50:03

following . Yeah , it's people that have gone on the

50:06

the grid , as they call them , to scroll through and they've

50:08

come across pictures especially on the public profile

50:10

, so sometimes it's people that aren't even following

50:12

. But imagine going out your way . That's

50:14

what I don't care . Yeah , I know that's the bizarre

50:16

part , isn't it ? So ?

50:17

that's what I mean . Like there's got to be something behind

50:19

it , or you're just pure nasty bitch , yeah

50:22

um , yeah , because I've

50:24

clicked on some of those profiles and they're only following

50:26

me yeah so they , and then I

50:28

block the account , right , if , if

50:30

I don't have time to go through everything , but

50:33

, um , if I do do that , I will block them immediately

50:35

. Don't respond , just block . I'm

50:37

, I try and do that , but then they , they must

50:40

reinvent themselves because I can't I can't

50:42

have that many people who just follow

50:44

me to hate me it's

50:46

got to be just the one person

50:49

where does it come from ?

50:50

um ? Where does the low self-esteem come

50:52

from , though ? Because , obviously , as an adult especially and

50:55

you know from for as long as I've been aware of you you always

50:57

present yourself as a really confident person

50:59

. So where does the where did that low self-esteem

51:01

come from in yourself ?

51:03

um , yeah , I think confidence is

51:06

different now to what it used to be for me

51:08

. Um , confidence was an act

51:10

yeah , and I was

51:13

able to act , and

51:15

then let it all out

51:18

in the form of , again , isolation

51:20

. Yeah , you know eating and isolated and

51:23

eat my feelings and

51:25

not feel worthy of Like

51:27

. I definitely still suffer from that today . That's

51:29

something I really have to work with

51:32

. My imposter syndrome yeah , so

51:34

that's what I suffer with . To work with my imposter syndrome . Yeah , so that's what I suffer with like

51:36

all my life imposter

51:38

syndrome from going to school

51:40

with the school friends , getting into cliques

51:42

, not feeling where I belong . You know

51:45

, we hear this a lot about , about not feeling

51:47

where we belong in addicts . But I think that's the general like

51:49

um , not

51:51

knowing where I fit and then trying

51:53

to strive to fit into that , moulding

51:55

myself to fit into it , but

51:58

never really believing in myself . So then that's where

52:00

the lack of confidence comes from . And

52:02

with singing and being in the band

52:04

, I honestly thought at some point it

52:06

was going to tap me on the shoulder and say this is all a joke

52:08

. I'm like how could this happen to me ? I've

52:11

got no training . I'm

52:15

from a council sketch , say in gateshead . I dreamed about being a pop star and I'm pop star . Like

52:17

that's not real , like that that shit doesn't

52:19

happen . Just waiting for someone yeah

52:21

, and in my mind , all of the other members were way

52:23

more talented than me . God

52:25

knows why all of us there , and because I thought it . I

52:27

thought they thought it yeah so

52:30

I convinced myself that

52:32

the band and other people thought

52:34

what I thought . And that's

52:36

where things get worse

52:39

, because , whilst not saying out

52:41

loud , if I'm constantly thinking

52:43

, everybody's thinking that I'm shit

52:45

. Constantly looking at me , oh

52:47

she's the fat one . Constantly saying

52:49

, oh , she can't sing as good as the others . Yeah

52:51

, I had those comments , don't get me wrong , it

52:54

stemmed from somewhere . But if I constantly believe

52:56

that about myself , it's

52:59

horrible place to be . Yeah , it

53:01

really is , and and I've been in

53:03

that place all my life and I can definitely

53:05

still feel it today , but

53:08

with sobriety

53:10

has definitely brought me a newfound

53:12

confidence of I don't give a fuck .

53:14

Yeah , much

53:24

like yourself . I think I've had even sometimes

53:26

sitting in this chair . I have the imposter syndrome like how

53:28

the hell am I doing this ? What am I doing here ? But I

53:30

think there is for me that it was almost like when I turned

53:32

32 . I just went you know what ? Fuck it

53:35

, just go with it . No one else can

53:37

tell . And if no one else can tell , no

53:39

one will know it's just I've got to remind myself

53:41

that a lot of it is in my head , I mean

53:43

.

53:43

I have proper inferiority

53:45

complex of all the things that

53:49

you've been able to accomplish here

53:52

with my help not because of me

53:54

, but with help and

53:56

that I am unworthy of . But

54:01

that you understand that

54:03

, how somebody could feel like that , because that's a

54:05

lot and it's amazing . But

54:07

to feel like that about every little thing

54:10

that goes on in your life is

54:12

a lot and it's hard

54:14

, hard work . But definitely there

54:16

is a turning point and you just like listen

54:19

, if I don't , if I don't hit something on stage

54:21

right , or if I , if I do a bum

54:23

, no , what is the worst

54:25

that could happen ? Yeah , I spent so long

54:27

dreading it and so doing it so

54:30

I would infect myself with

54:32

that kind of mind thought and disease . So

54:34

I was shit on stage sometimes because

54:36

I just believed I was . And now

54:38

I'm like actually , no , I'm here for a reason . I know

54:41

I must be all right , I got in the band yes and

54:43

it is what it is , and and have fun and

54:45

and genuinely , when

54:47

you don't take yourself too seriously .

54:49

You're better at what you do absolutely , yeah , I

54:51

I found that I think sometimes , even with these

54:53

podcasts some of them , do you know I get a little bit like

54:55

, oh , I've got to get this perfecting , it's perfect

54:57

. And sometimes if I just come and sit and you go , do you know , I'm just

54:59

having a conversation exactly it suddenly becomes

55:01

a lot more easier . Yeah , um

55:03

, going back to the body image and the low self-esteem

55:06

, um , what advice would

55:08

you give to people who are dealing with some

55:10

of the things that you've experienced ? or are

55:12

experiencing .

55:14

Oh gosh , I mean , it's a different race

55:16

today , isn't ?

55:17

it .

55:18

Like with social media , it's so evident

55:20

what my daughter's going through , and

55:22

so all I can do

55:24

is relate it to her . And she's 12 , going

55:26

on 20 , of course , and

55:29

and

55:32

it's difficult to give advice because

55:35

we're living in a world where it was so different

55:37

to what I was brought up in and

55:41

although the only

55:43

thing similar was that I looked up to like

55:45

the supermodels back then and

55:47

the actresses People now look up

55:49

to influencers , it is what it is . We've

55:51

got to learn to accept it , that

55:55

social media isn't necessarily

55:58

real . Um , and

56:01

you have to understand that , because when

56:03

you put up something on social media , we

56:05

use a filter yeah so

56:07

recognize what we're doing about our

56:10

own things that we put up

56:12

and , like I , I

56:14

forgive I sorry , I forgive anybody who

56:16

puts up a filter . I usually make it brighter , you

56:18

know , or contrast . Sometimes that makes

56:20

you look a little bit more defined , you know all these

56:22

little things , whilst I'm not like making myself

56:25

look like I've had face work . We

56:27

all do a filter , so if I'm doing it

56:29

, the next person's doing it and the next person's

56:32

doing it more , more . So just don't believe

56:34

the hype . If you're

56:36

willing to filter your own life , then

56:39

just the smartest thing to recognize

56:41

is that they're all doing it too yeah

56:43

, I think this is .

56:44

It reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend and he

56:46

made a comment about about my

56:48

life on . So I used to put I haven't posted on social media

56:51

in a while , but I used to post quite regularly about

56:53

places I was going , things I was doing

56:55

, um , and he said to me , he

56:57

made the comment of oh , your life's so good and stuff like

56:59

that . And I was like , yeah , because I'm only sharing the

57:02

positive things . Yes , this was something that

57:04

was said to me . He said if you look at the family photo album

57:06

, what you'll see is the pictures of your

57:08

mom and dad smiling , the happy days

57:10

with the kids .

57:11

He said you're not seeing the arguments you're not

57:13

seeing the fallouts , he said , and because

57:15

we don't capture them , we don't capture them .

57:16

So he said what you've kind of got to understand is social media

57:19

is a photo album of

57:21

the best moments .

57:22

He said you're not necessarily .

57:23

I know some people are a lot more open about , and that's part

57:26

of what people do . They share their darker

57:28

moments as a way of inspiration to other people .

57:30

But for the most part , from your day-to-day person

57:32

like myself , I'm only sharing the good

57:34

things I completely relate

57:36

to that and , and whilst I share

57:38

, you know , some bad stuff as well , by

57:41

no means am I going to sit there and put up a

57:43

picture of me waking

57:45

up .

57:45

Well , sometimes I do , actually but it's

57:48

like , of course yeah because

57:50

we don't , we don't even think about capture . Oh

57:52

, look , shoot , let me take a picture you know

57:54

, like that's not what we do yeah

57:56

and that's the way I look at it as well .

57:59

Yeah , absolutely diet

58:02

, exercise , healthy living and cleaning in is

58:04

clearly a huge part of your recovery journey . How

58:07

do you monitor and adjust your lifestyle to ensure it supports

58:09

your recovery goals , and what specific

58:11

routines have you found most beneficial in maintaining

58:13

balance and health in your life ?

58:16

and balance is key . That's a key word

58:18

in recovery . Um I it

58:21

was hard at first to get a balance , because it's all

58:23

recovery and and

58:25

and that's not wrong you know , early onset

58:27

. You know , we recommend 90 and 90

58:29

, which is 90 meetings in 90 days and

58:31

get a sponsor and do the work . And I

58:33

did everything . I was told I was so scared of

58:35

relapse . I'm so glad I did and I

58:38

still live in recovery , um

58:40

, but also at some point I had to

58:42

recognize that I had a neglected

58:44

family and , um

58:46

, it became apparent that you

58:48

can also overdo recovery , um

58:52

, because I was so fearful

58:54

of relapse that I did so many meetings

58:56

that I was missing my

58:58

family's needs . So balance

59:01

is key . I

59:03

don't ask their permission to go on a meeting . I

59:05

still do my meetings , but

59:08

with time and space and

59:10

recovery , you find out what meetings work

59:12

for you , what nights work for you as a

59:14

family . There's no excuse

59:16

to not do recovery and be

59:18

with your family at the same time

59:21

. Because there are so many avenues

59:23

to reach out to , whether it's face-to-face

59:26

meetings , recovery groups , things

59:28

like what you're doing , listening to podcasts

59:31

, getting to an online meeting they're 24 hours

59:33

a day if you look for it . If

59:35

, if you don't look for it , then you don't want it that bad

59:37

. There are options out there , you

59:40

know , and doing things like this and speaking out about

59:42

it and creating facilities . What you've got here

59:45

is a huge way forward Community

59:47

coming together , getting community . But that

59:49

doesn't mean that you have to then neglect

59:51

your family at home and yourselves

59:54

. First and foremost

59:56

, recovery's at home . If

59:59

I am not working recovery in the house

1:00:01

and that doesn't mean walking around with a big

1:00:04

book and smacking my kids with it , big

1:00:06

book of AA . It means

1:00:08

that if I'm not present for

1:00:10

my children myself , my

1:00:12

mind , my husband , I

1:00:15

am no use in recovery or

1:00:17

helping other people because I

1:00:19

have to be focused at

1:00:22

home safe , happy

1:00:25

, working recovery .

1:00:26

That way yeah um , so

1:00:29

it goes hand in hand I think balance

1:00:31

is a really good word to use . I met someone before and

1:00:33

he said he became addicted to recovery he spent

1:00:35

so much time just in and around

1:00:37

recovery . He was volunteering , he was going

1:00:40

to meetings every night

1:00:42

and you know again , the night in and night he works

1:00:44

for people . But when that continues

1:00:46

, he said , I realised I replaced one addiction with another

1:00:48

. He said , granted , this new addiction was

1:00:50

much more healthier , but he said it was still

1:00:52

having negative impacts on me Because

1:01:01

it was what I replaced , the drugs and the alcohol with , just recovery . Recovery , that's a really

1:01:03

good word there was no nothing else going on in my life , but recovery is what he said , which again is

1:01:05

. It's just interesting to see those perspectives it's

1:01:07

consequences .

1:01:09

Yes , right so the consequences

1:01:11

of my drinking and using um

1:01:13

. I never saw a while in addiction , but they came with

1:01:15

massive consequences . Consequences

1:01:18

of putting one thing before the other has

1:01:22

consequences on my family , or

1:01:24

just being with my friends has consequences

1:01:27

on my recovery . If something has caused

1:01:29

negative consequences , be

1:01:32

mindful of that and make

1:01:34

a change .

1:01:34

Yeah , it's a random

1:01:36

question for you . Earlier in the

1:01:39

podcast you spoke about ages . Do

1:01:41

you ever still get like cravings

1:01:43

or ages , or do you ever find like certain surroundings bring

1:01:47

that want of alcohol ?

1:01:49

Yeah , I think . Oh . So

1:01:52

I was out last night with Liberty X and

1:01:55

two of them weren't drinking , which was great , so

1:01:58

it meant that I didn't have to sit talking bollocks all

1:02:00

night when the rest of them were drunk

1:02:02

. But I

1:02:04

found myself uneased towards the end

1:02:07

, and for

1:02:09

no reason .

1:02:10

Yeah .

1:02:11

I've been . They're my best friends

1:02:13

. They know more about me than probably

1:02:15

my husband does .

1:02:15

Yeah .

1:02:16

You know , because we grew up together and

1:02:18

it wasn't in comes for being around them . It was

1:02:20

that a switch happens and I

1:02:23

am able to recognize that switch and I was the

1:02:25

first person to say I think we need to start heading

1:02:27

home . You know , tony and kelly

1:02:29

were having a great time and um , and

1:02:31

I know jess wanted to get home and

1:02:33

kev's training for the marathon and he wanted to

1:02:35

get home , but I was the first one to say it . That's powerful

1:02:38

.

1:02:38

Yeah .

1:02:39

To be able to say right , it's time to call it

1:02:41

a night . Yeah , when you recognise

1:02:43

it becomes a bit uncomfortable . Not

1:02:45

them , just because if I

1:02:47

stay longer I'm putting myself

1:02:49

an unnecessary . Oh

1:02:51

, I'd love a drink . Why put

1:02:53

myself ? In that unnecessarily In early recovery

1:02:55

.

1:02:55

I did that all the time and it was painful well

1:02:58

, that was something that you said in the last podcast .

1:02:59

When you went to like certain events and stuff

1:03:01

, you'd find yourself ducking out like extremely

1:03:03

early yeah just because you didn't want to

1:03:05

risk it yeah , was it , was it , was

1:03:07

it , that was this podcast

1:03:09

the day after I was at that place

1:03:11

in hull yes , yes , so it was that .

1:03:13

Yeah , we spoke to you . I think it was like a Saturday

1:03:15

morning . I think we spoke to you after you'd just done your show at the arena

1:03:18

.

1:03:18

That's right . And that Friday night I remember I

1:03:20

was at the bar in the

1:03:22

hotel , yeah , with Jimmy from 911

1:03:25

and the band and I just left

1:03:27

, and that

1:03:29

was then . That was 18 months ago , yeah , and

1:03:31

I've grown so much since then .

1:03:33

That's what I was going to say . How much have you grown since then

1:03:35

?

1:03:35

Actually , when I think about that time is

1:03:37

that my urgency isn't

1:03:42

so urgent when

1:03:48

I become uncomfortable . I recognise that earlier , so that I have time

1:03:50

to think about right , okay

1:03:52

, do

1:03:54

I need to be here ? Do I need to sit with

1:03:56

these people for much longer ? If I have

1:03:58

to , okay , let me just get

1:04:00

a little break . Ring my sponsor , ring my husband

1:04:02

, and then come back If

1:04:05

I don't need to be in a situation I

1:04:07

recognised it earlier , whereas that particular night

1:04:09

it just came on me and then

1:04:11

I started to walk away and

1:04:14

I think in time , you recognise triggers earlier

1:04:16

away

1:04:20

. Um , and I think in time , you recognize triggers earlier . I've never for quite some

1:04:22

time felt like I need a drink . Yeah , a long time I'm talking , maybe

1:04:25

a couple of years yeah but

1:04:27

I do often

1:04:30

say to out loud now

1:04:32

I don't keep it in , I say out

1:04:34

loud I'd love to have a drink yeah as

1:04:36

in you're comfortable in voicing .

1:04:38

I'd love to have a glass of wine with my red meat

1:04:40

.

1:04:40

Yeah oh , that cocktail looks great , fuck's

1:04:42

sake .

1:04:43

I'm out of this and and .

1:04:45

Without being able to have that voice yeah

1:04:47

I , I probably

1:04:49

snap , but being able to say it out

1:04:51

loud and now the people around me knowing that , that

1:04:53

doesn't mean I'm going to relapse , that's just

1:04:55

me appreciating if you're like 18 months ago

1:04:57

.

1:04:57

They would have panicked if you said exactly .

1:04:59

So people around you evolve yeah

1:05:01

and that helps us recover , recovering

1:05:04

. So in time they become more confident

1:05:06

about your recovery , that

1:05:08

you're able then to let down the gauntlet

1:05:10

and be able to talk about alcohol and recovery

1:05:13

without them locking you up yeah

1:05:15

, locking you up basically

1:05:17

yeah , because at the beginning

1:05:20

of recovery , you know , like , like my bandmates

1:05:22

as well and my husband , like they wanted to lock me

1:05:24

away and make sure I was all right and and

1:05:26

and I hated that feeling . But what

1:05:29

the what did I expect ? I

1:05:31

had just been for years

1:05:34

unavailable , lying

1:05:36

, deceiving you know um

1:05:39

, hiding my addictions . What

1:05:41

did I expect that was going to happen ? When

1:05:43

I came out it's the big bad world . They

1:05:46

weren't all going to want to see me free reign

1:05:48

. Thank god they didn't . Um

1:05:51

. So that's to be expected in early

1:05:53

recovery .

1:05:54

It does go in time that

1:05:56

, interestingly enough , when we did speak to 18 months ago , when I was

1:05:58

saying earlier about when someone hits recovery , you think that's

1:06:01

them sorted now , thinking back to that

1:06:03

time when I did first speak to you , I was like , oh , she's sorted

1:06:05

now , but it realistically , now

1:06:07

I'm looking back , it's like 18 months isn't as

1:06:09

long as it . It kind of felt at that time

1:06:11

. It is still very new and I imagine that people

1:06:13

were treading on eggshells

1:06:16

a little bit around you when people wouldn't want

1:06:18

to maybe drink around you , in case that was a trigger

1:06:20

and things like that , and you know and with time

1:06:22

there's no like .

1:06:23

Do you know what ? There wasn't a point where , with like with the Kelly

1:06:25

and Jess , where they said is it

1:06:27

okay for drink in front of you ? That that conversation

1:06:30

never happened it just evolved , right

1:06:32

. Yeah , yeah , it's natural yeah , I

1:06:35

think also I surround myself

1:06:37

with people that know me , People

1:06:39

who are positive for my life . Now

1:06:42

, it used to be the opposite Whoever

1:06:44

was negative . I loved that I

1:06:46

feed off their negativity because then it was another reason

1:06:48

to drink . And so

1:06:51

because I surround myself

1:06:53

with people who are at ease

1:06:55

with me . If I'm at ease

1:06:57

with them , they feel at ease and there's

1:06:59

no awkwardness . Yeah , and there's

1:07:01

no need to ask if they can have a drink in front

1:07:04

of me . It goes without saying , at

1:07:06

the house we have a strict no alcohol in the

1:07:08

house . Yeah , even if somebody's coming over . Yeah

1:07:10

, that goes without saying to

1:07:12

my dearest friends . If I have to explain

1:07:15

that that to anybody then they don't

1:07:17

understand me . Yeah , as

1:07:19

a recovering alcoholic , um and

1:07:22

and , and that's the beauty of time , it's

1:07:25

just so freeing that

1:07:28

I don't need to say it's okay to drink

1:07:30

, now it's oh . You

1:07:32

know , I find it so freeing that I can

1:07:34

be around people in social situations and they say it on the meetings that used to . You know , I find it

1:07:36

so freeing that I can be around people in social situations and they say it on the meetings that

1:07:38

, used to , you know , astonish

1:07:41

me . Like , oh my god , how

1:07:43

could I ever be anywhere social without having a drink , you

1:07:46

know ? I mean it got to a place for me where I couldn't leave the house

1:07:48

without having a drink ?

1:07:49

yeah , but how ?

1:07:49

could I be the party without having a drink ? And with time

1:07:52

and tolerance it

1:07:54

does come back . It's amazing

1:07:57

yeah and I don't know when it just switched , but

1:07:59

it did it just happened .

1:08:00

Um , in what ? In what ways do you think

1:08:03

you have changed the most since you began your journey

1:08:05

towards that recovery and self-acceptance

1:08:07

?

1:08:09

oh gosh , um , how

1:08:12

have I changed ? Obviously I

1:08:14

mean physically goes without saying , but mentally

1:08:18

I can listen to people . Now

1:08:20

I'd like to think I'm a good listener

1:08:22

. I wouldn't hear a word you

1:08:24

were saying unless it concerned me . I

1:08:27

would talk over people . I

1:08:29

really try not to do that . Still

1:08:32

because I can get excited .

1:08:34

Yeah , I'm like , well , I'm a podcast host . I want to jump in on

1:08:36

things .

1:08:37

But before it wasn't an excitement of

1:08:39

trying to get things out , it was rudeness .

1:08:41

Yeah .

1:08:41

So I now appreciate

1:08:45

people . Appreciation for what I've got around

1:08:47

me has come , and

1:08:50

also a sense

1:08:52

of understanding that not

1:08:56

everyone's okay and that listening

1:08:58

is a big part of how

1:09:00

I can help people . Yeah , and

1:09:02

because then I'm listened to . If

1:09:06

I go at it the way I don't want

1:09:08

people to come at it like me , we feed

1:09:10

off each other right .

1:09:11

Yeah .

1:09:12

Human beings . So if I brought

1:09:14

this energy to you in this podcast

1:09:16

not

1:09:19

saying that you would change for me , but undoubtedly the sense of

1:09:21

the podcast would go a different way yeah and

1:09:24

um . So without

1:09:27

we're not really realizing how I've

1:09:29

changed , I've changed massively . I

1:09:32

feel grown up yeah I feel like

1:09:34

I'm still an absolute child right

1:09:36

, don't get wrong and an absolute fool , and

1:09:39

I'm crazy like I'll still do crazy

1:09:41

things that that people don't

1:09:43

expect , and I love that I've not lost

1:09:45

that yeah but feeling

1:09:47

like a grown-up .

1:09:48

Being able to have a conversation is so good

1:09:51

yeah , I always wonder when I'm gonna feel like a grown-up

1:09:53

too , if I always thought like when I was younger , so when I'm 18 I'll

1:09:55

feel like a grown-up too . I always thought when I was younger , when I'm 18 , I'll feel like a grown-up , then it was maybe

1:09:57

when I'm 21 , then I got 20 , maybe when I'm 30 . Now I

1:09:59

realise I'm just in this constant state of feeling

1:10:02

about . I

1:10:04

don't feel like I've felt any difference since I was about 23 , 24

1:10:06

really .

1:10:07

I do believe that that's the same for me in a way . I

1:10:21

still feel like I , but

1:10:23

knowledge is a good thing . Knowledge is power and it

1:10:25

definitely makes me feel more adult , but in my mind , I want to do everything that I did

1:10:27

as a 24-year-old . Yeah , I know , yeah , literally .

1:10:29

I was walking the dog not so long ago and

1:10:32

this kid's chain had come off his bike and he said to me he went . Mr , can you help me with that ? I

1:10:35

went , Mr and suddenly I was like I am the mister . It's like

1:10:38

when you're in situations , even here at work , sometimes

1:10:40

it's like I need a , I need an adult

1:10:42

to help and it's like I am the adult . You know those

1:10:44

sort of things where you realize it's like hang on , this

1:10:47

is where it comes down to . I have to deal with

1:10:49

this now yeah I think . Realizing that , though , and

1:10:51

looking around at everyone else's , I'm

1:10:53

like , if I'm feeling like this , everyone else is

1:10:55

too , and for me , it was no more apparent

1:10:57

when we went through lockdown , and I

1:10:59

was looking at the politicians as if they are the answers

1:11:01

and I was like , nope , they ain't got a clue either and

1:11:03

then I realized nobody knows nobody

1:11:05

, everyone's just making it up as

1:11:08

we go along , and there was something about that that was quite

1:11:10

freeing in a way to understand

1:11:13

everybody is totally winging

1:11:15

it , that's . That's what I mean . That's realising that

1:11:17

everyone's making this up as they go along In

1:11:19

pretty much life right .

1:11:22

I mean politicians are definitely winging it

1:11:24

, and I mean , I winged it all my life

1:11:26

. Yeah , I

1:11:28

don't prepare for things .

1:11:30

No .

1:11:31

Because it's a waste of time

1:11:33

and energy , Because you never know what's going to be presented

1:11:35

Like . Obviously , if I a waste of time and energy because you never know what's going to

1:11:37

be presented like .

1:11:38

Obviously if I'm doing a big show I'll rehearse .

1:11:39

Yes , don't get me wrong , but like things like this , I

1:11:42

just don't get wound up about it , and that's , and

1:11:44

that's what age has given me yeah yeah

1:11:47

, whereas I would have , like you know , in the past

1:11:49

got like all the questions in advance and went

1:11:51

through them and and and oh my

1:11:53

god , if you're not gonna ask me that , whereas I think

1:11:55

last time we had the discussion that I don't want to know what

1:11:57

the questions are well , it's the same .

1:11:59

Like obviously my producer will prepare

1:12:01

everything to to a fine detail , and

1:12:03

I'm just like lady daddy does sit in the chair and I'm like

1:12:05

, hey , how's it going ? And then we just , we just talk yeah

1:12:07

, and that that's it really . I mean , you know , I

1:12:09

will say all of this is uh

1:12:11

that's why you're nominated for an award . Well

1:12:14

, Well , it's a conversation .

1:12:16

That's exactly it . And how hard is it to

1:12:18

speak with people .

1:12:19

I think if you can speak with people , you're

1:12:22

absolutely fine .

1:12:23

I listen to podcasts and my

1:12:25

favourite ones are conversations . Yes

1:12:27

, if it feels at

1:12:29

all awkward or like

1:12:32

right number three , I

1:12:34

switch off Because in my

1:12:36

mind , someone's preparing something

1:12:39

.

1:12:39

Yeah .

1:12:42

And whilst , yes , you have something in front , of you that gives you topics of conversation

1:12:44

. Yeah , my prompts , because otherwise we'll literally just talk about

1:12:46

one thing it could go anywhere .

1:12:48

This is to keep me on topic , basically to keep me

1:12:51

on track about going into everything .

1:12:52

And me as well , because I'll literally stay on one topic , the whole time as well

1:12:55

. It is a conversation

1:12:57

absolutely and listeners can feel

1:13:00

that yeah , absolutely and tune into that and

1:13:02

that's why you're up for a nomination . Yeah , because

1:13:05

this is true . This is real conversations

1:13:07

. It's a real conversation .

1:13:08

It's people's lives as well , isn't it , then , much

1:13:10

like yourself coming here and telling us about this ? This

1:13:12

is what we're here to do is to talk about you and your life

1:13:14

that's the joy of it . No , well

1:13:17

, thank you , um , I guess . Finally

1:13:19

, what is next ? You know , we know , that you've been previously

1:13:21

. Well , you previously brought a self-help book on uh menopause

1:13:23

and you recently stated you I know I'm open

1:13:26

about my story , but there are always stories behind

1:13:28

the story nice are we seeing

1:13:30

?

1:13:30

I was thrilled with that quote . It was a good

1:13:32

one .

1:13:33

It was a good one are we seeing another book in the works

1:13:35

and are you going to see us again in another 18

1:13:37

months , maybe ?

1:13:39

Maybe so the

1:13:41

process of the first book was that I wrote

1:13:44

a couple of chapters before it went out

1:13:46

to publishers and then I got a ghostwriter because

1:13:48

, I'm not a writer as such . And

1:13:51

so I'm at that beginning process and

1:13:53

I already wrote about a chapter

1:13:55

and a half last year process

1:13:59

, and I already wrote about a chapter and a half last year and um , and

1:14:01

then I realized , going through some of my notes , um , in the priory that I had I had I've almost

1:14:04

got a chapter there . Um , whether

1:14:06

it's just about addiction or

1:14:09

whether it might be a sense of autobiography

1:14:11

, because I'm , I think I qualify old enough as

1:14:13

one I I always thought , you know , I

1:14:16

don't understand these young men stepping out all the time .

1:14:18

Justin Bieber at 18 with an autobiography . I was like

1:14:20

what ? I don't get that at all . How is this happening

1:14:22

?

1:14:23

No , I don't get that at all . I've got to admit I'd

1:14:26

like to think I've got enough life experiences to talk

1:14:28

about quite a bit . You know , growing

1:14:30

up in Gateshead

1:14:32

, being in early pop culture , what

1:14:35

that really looked like . There's lots

1:14:37

of stories behind the stories , but

1:14:39

whether it's everything or

1:14:42

just addiction , we don't know

1:14:44

yet . But in the early

1:14:46

stages I've got a few chapters written . I

1:14:48

know what way I'd like it to go , but

1:14:52

it could be something else . So that's where I'm at

1:14:54

. It's not a quick process

1:14:56

.

1:14:56

And the .

1:14:57

Thing about releasing books is that it

1:14:59

isn't something that's like a massive lucrative

1:15:01

deal . It's something

1:15:03

to focus on . It's

1:15:06

not much of a payout . People don't don't

1:15:08

do books because they're going to be millionaires , unless

1:15:10

like you . You know , I

1:15:12

don't know , I can't even think well

1:15:14

, they were not really well you .

1:15:16

There's a controversial one , I know

1:15:18

Not anymore .

1:15:20

But yeah , exactly , it

1:15:23

is for one . What

1:15:25

comes with publishing a book about

1:15:27

the topics that you've , you

1:15:31

know , chose to raise .

1:15:32

It's a form of therapy for me and

1:15:34

also it's another way

1:15:36

of keeping you relevant

1:15:39

yeah and a talking point

1:15:41

and actually

1:15:43

talking about stuff that matters yeah , yeah

1:15:45

, and I think people are so interested in your story

1:15:47

around addiction , and it goes with , I think , because

1:15:49

you've been so open about it as well , I guess

1:15:52

it's a . It's a big thing that I

1:15:54

suppose people are following you for as well . Do you know , since

1:15:56

you've been open about your sobriety I think that's the interesting

1:15:58

thing when you talked about the , the shame that you

1:16:00

felt because of it . If anything , it's something

1:16:02

that people absolutely love you for . Do you know ? It's people

1:16:04

that , like I said , evidenced in the downloads

1:16:07

of the episode , of your episode last

1:16:09

time that we spoke people really like to hear your

1:16:11

insights on on

1:16:13

addiction and where you've come from , so I think , a book around

1:16:15

that , but it's again . That is

1:16:17

your life , though , isn't it ? I think , an autobiography would be

1:16:20

be a wonderful . It'd be a wonderful read

1:16:22

at christmas time , wouldn't ?

1:16:23

it when you get the obligatory autobiography

1:16:27

?

1:16:27

yeah , maybe after christmas presents

1:16:29

, when everyone's feeling worse for where ?

1:16:30

like you're very um but yeah

1:16:33

no , thank you very much .

1:16:34

I appreciate that and , lastly , I've just

1:16:36

got my ten questions

1:16:38

that I asked . I asked you this last time .

1:16:39

I want to see if your answers have changed oh gosh , you won't even

1:16:41

remember what your answers were . Last time too , I won't remember , so you won't

1:16:44

know my memory's gone .

1:16:45

No , no what's your favourite word

1:16:47

? Were

1:16:50

these asked last time ? They said last time yeah

1:16:52

what did ?

1:16:53

do you know what ? I have no idea what's my

1:16:55

favorite word ? Oh

1:17:01

no , my face , babe

1:17:03

. Least favorite word I

1:17:06

can't something that excites you those

1:17:10

are two words , weren't they something that excites me

1:17:12

um Chan

1:17:15

and Tatum .

1:17:17

Something that doesn't excite you .

1:17:19

Politics .

1:17:20

Tell me a sound or noise that you

1:17:22

love .

1:17:31

Oh gosh , my watch

1:17:33

beeping that . I've got that . I've

1:17:35

done my work , my working out

1:17:37

on time . What sound or noise do you hear

1:17:39

? The washing machine or the dishwasher

1:17:41

being done ? What's your favourite curse word ?

1:17:45

Fuck . What

1:17:47

profession other than your own would you like to attempt ?

1:17:53

I mean actresses kind of lend themselves to this , so

1:17:55

I would say actress .

1:17:56

Okay .

1:17:57

But if it was , would say actress

1:17:59

Okay , but if it was just say actress .

1:18:00

Okay , what profession would you not like to do ?

1:18:03

Politics .

1:18:05

And then , if heaven exists , what would you like to hear God say

1:18:07

when you arrive at the pearly gates ?

1:18:10

Thank fuck , you got here .

1:18:13

Michelle , thank you so much for coming on the Believing People

1:18:15

podcast . As always , you've been an absolute delight

1:18:18

. Thank you .

1:18:18

Thank you , I need to know what I said last time

1:18:20

we'll find it won't , we'll get the cliff .

1:18:22

Thank you very much . Thank you god

1:18:25

, thank you for having me and if you've enjoyed this episode

1:18:27

of the believing people podcast , then please check out our

1:18:29

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1:18:31

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