0:03

So the more we stop thinking about

0:05

people with mental health issues in one

0:07

category and healthy people in another category

0:09

and instead say we are all these

0:11

people and we all benefit from the

0:13

animal. And and dogs are just a

0:15

great way for your average person to

0:17

open up and feel like comfortable talking

0:19

about the ways that goes animals make

0:21

them feel better, and the way that

0:23

our mental health differences can actually be

0:26

strengths. Welcome.

0:30

To the beautifully complex podcast Where's

0:32

your insights in strategies on parenting?

0:35

Know divergent kids straight from the

0:37

trenches. I'm your host Penny Williams

0:39

and the Parenting Coach author and

0:42

mindset Mama Honor to guide you

0:44

on the journey of raising your

0:46

a typical kid. Let's get started.

0:53

Welcome back Everyone I have with

0:56

me Daniel Minkler and he is

0:58

the Mental Health Advisory for pause

1:00

for Patrick and we're going to

1:02

talk all about emotional support animals.

1:05

Why does it mean to have

1:07

an emotional support animal who would

1:09

benefit from as an emotional support

1:11

animal? How do you go about

1:14

getting line? All of these questions

1:16

that I think so many people

1:18

have we are going to try

1:20

to answer for you here in

1:23

this. Episode. Per. Want to

1:25

start by having you introduce yourself: who

1:27

are you and what do you do?

1:30

Have I'm him a color and am a

1:32

high school social worker. And. A therapist

1:34

in private practice. I have our podcast called

1:36

not Allowed to Die which is I meant

1:38

to have podcast where I talk about how

1:40

treatment works or sometimes doesn't work and then

1:42

as you said under Mental Health Adviser for

1:44

pause for Patrick where I help educate people.

1:47

Regular. Families and therapists about emotional

1:49

support animals and how they work in

1:51

supporting particularly young people to view their

1:54

best selves. So that's a big part

1:56

of what I do. Yeah.

1:58

you wanna start with just telling us a

2:01

little bit about Paws for Patrick, what that

2:03

organization is and does and maybe how it

2:06

came about. And then I think

2:08

we'll dive into talking specifics about

2:10

emotional support animals. Yeah. So

2:12

in my role as a school social worker, I got

2:14

to work with Patrick Romer and I worked with him

2:17

as a freshman through his senior year. And

2:19

Patrick had a lot of

2:21

challenges with depression, anxiety. And when

2:24

Patrick was struggling, he

2:26

wasn't the kind of kid who liked to share his

2:28

feelings in a therapeutic setting. There might be days

2:30

when he would be so overwhelmed and stressed out that he would

2:32

come down to my office and he would just say, I just

2:34

want to go home and be with Cece. And

2:36

so we would find a way for him because when

2:38

he could be with Cece, his dog, he could pet

2:40

her and hug her and he could normalize his heart

2:43

rate and he could feel more relaxed. So unfortunately,

2:45

during the pandemic, you know, I didn't get to

2:47

have contact. He was a senior, it was his

2:49

senior year. And Patrick was actually

2:51

having a good experience with his family. They

2:53

organized the pet Olympics, they were bonding, but

2:56

he had a really bad day in May of 2020. And

2:59

he died by suicide that day. And

3:02

again, for his family, for me, we were all everyone

3:04

who loved him was just so incredibly devastated. And

3:06

the GoFundMe was created to try to help support the

3:08

family. And the family said, we don't really

3:10

need this money for ourselves. We want to do something that

3:12

will honor Patrick's legacy. We know what we

3:15

want it to be about mental health and animals. And

3:17

so the idea just came together to say,

3:19

how can we get people that kind of

3:21

support and nurturing that Patrick got from Cece

3:24

to as many other families as possible? Yeah.

3:28

Wow. I think it's such a

3:30

story that so many people can relate to these

3:32

days, because our teens and young

3:34

adults are really going through it. It feels

3:36

like more than ever. And

3:38

that may or may not be completely

3:40

accurate, but it just feels like they

3:43

need more support and

3:45

more discussion about feelings. I think that,

3:48

you know, many generations were raised not

3:50

to talk about your feelings and

3:52

some feelings are bad. And I think

3:55

we're learning through our young

3:58

people how important that is.

4:00

is and how much we need to support

4:03

them in those areas. Well,

4:05

the research would back up what you're saying, that it

4:07

has actually never been harder to be a teenager and

4:10

anxiety and depression have never been higher among

4:12

these kids. Yeah. And again,

4:14

although people say why, and I think we

4:16

all intuitively feel that it has something to

4:18

do with comparison, social media, and

4:21

those kinds of things. And so that's

4:23

what we're finding. People are, particularly young

4:25

people, between the ages of 13 and 25, our

4:28

developmental goal is to find our identity. And

4:31

that identity is tougher to find when you're constantly

4:33

feeling like you're being compared and you never get

4:35

to take a step off of that treadmill of

4:37

comparison, and you never really feel like you're measuring

4:40

up. And as adults, we do that. We

4:42

look at who's having the best vacation, who's

4:44

giving them the nicest house. But for

4:46

teenagers, it's extra exhausting. And again,

4:48

when I was growing up, there was only one phone in the

4:50

house, we had to share it among the siblings and whatnot. And

4:53

you were actually able to go to bed and not worry

4:55

about what was happening everywhere. So for so

4:57

many kids, and particularly our kids with ADHD, our

5:00

kids who are just wanting connection. Yeah,

5:02

I can't imagine what our

5:04

kids are going through now

5:08

as far as like always having

5:11

to worry about

5:13

what people are saying about you

5:15

publicly, right? It's

5:18

tough, I have two young adults and they

5:21

are constantly trying to

5:24

navigate difficult

5:26

social situations online and

5:29

worrying about how

5:31

that might impact their future, right?

5:33

If they're on a conversation that's

5:35

been recorded and somebody says

5:37

something, then they need to worry

5:39

about that and future employers finding

5:41

it. And it's just such a

5:43

different world. And I think unless

5:46

we really take time to discuss it and

5:48

think deeply about it, like we are here,

5:51

we don't recognize it, but we really

5:53

need to. Well, that's why

5:55

animals are so much more even incredibly powerful

5:58

now, because you can talk to them. And

6:00

they are just they're not gonna pick up their phone

6:02

while you're talking right, right? They're not gonna take a

6:04

video. No, they're gonna give you their full and undivided

6:06

attention And we know the research

6:08

says that just staring in the eyes of

6:11

a dog can increase the production of oxytocin

6:13

Which is that connection hormone which helps people

6:15

to feel bonded some of the

6:17

research by dr Janet Oikker lock of University

6:19

of Toledo found that at cats are actually better

6:22

than dogs in helping to reduce symptoms of depression

6:25

So I found that really fascinating. I'm more

6:27

of a dog person. Mm-hmm And you know,

6:29

there's a lot of misconceptions about emotional support

6:31

animals people think of dogs when they think

6:33

of emotional support animals But emotional support animal

6:35

is just any animal that being in contact

6:37

with it Reduces the frequency intensity

6:39

or duration of any mental health symptoms

6:41

that a person may experience. Mmm So

6:44

again, you can have an emotional support

6:46

animal. That's a tarantula. That's a lizard

6:48

Yeah, the fish it doesn't have to

6:50

be a dog or a cat or

6:52

something furry and People often

6:54

think that they have to get their animal registered But

6:57

the registration of emotional support animals is not for

6:59

the pet it's for the person Mm-hmm So when

7:01

I as a therapist and race writing an emotional

7:04

support animal letter What I'm saying is that in

7:06

my clinical judgment the person that I'm

7:08

talking to has a disability That

7:10

the symptoms may be benefited by

7:12

contact with an animal. That's

7:14

all I'm saying is a clinician So

7:17

it doesn't have to be proven It doesn't have to be anything

7:19

and that bar for what a disability is

7:21

is not nearly as high as what we

7:23

would think of Is if you're trying to

7:26

get funding for social security or things like

7:28

that or workman's comp, right? Right the law

7:30

is written to make sure that almost everyone

7:32

particularly if they have anxiety depression those kind

7:34

of things They found the autistic spectrum. They

7:36

were pretty much automatically qualify for getting an

7:38

emotional support animal Wow and

7:41

that letter I can just imagine people

7:43

wondering Why do I need a letter

7:45

or to have an emotional support animal

7:47

that gives you? The rights

7:49

to have that animal in certain environments where

7:51

maybe it would otherwise be prohibited, right? Right.

7:54

So the letter is primarily for where you

7:56

live So if you have an emotional

7:58

support animal letter and if you live in that's

8:00

covered by FHA. So like apartments that have more

8:02

than like four units and that are not necessarily

8:04

owner occupied, then they have to allow you to

8:06

have your animal no matter what kind of animal

8:09

it is, no matter what the breed is, they

8:11

have to allow you to have it and they

8:13

can't charge you pet fees. And

8:15

so this is all can also apply to, you

8:17

know, colleges and universities. And sometimes they may ask

8:19

for things like extra forms to be filled out.

8:22

And very frequently, what they're asking for is in violation

8:24

of the law, they're not allowed to ask you what

8:26

your disability is, they're not allowed to, but they sometimes

8:28

do. And then you have to get sometimes

8:30

you have to get HUD involved. Or I was

8:32

literally just emailing with a college student who she may

8:34

have to have a Title IX investigation at

8:37

her college because they're giving her a lot of

8:39

pushback about getting her cat in her dorm room.

8:42

So sometimes it can be challenging. Yeah, but again,

8:44

it really does mostly apply to just your dwelling.

8:46

So people who talk about, Oh, there's all

8:48

these emotional support animals and they're in the

8:50

supermarket and they're wherever else, well, that legally,

8:52

your emotional support animal doesn't have any right

8:55

in most states to be in anywhere other

8:57

than your dwelling. Okay. So when you see

8:59

animals out and about the only ones that

9:01

have the legal right to be anywhere are

9:03

service animals. Gotcha. And service animals are those

9:05

like we think of like seeing eye dogs,

9:07

or there are animals that are trained to

9:09

spot epilepsy or for diabetes and those kinds

9:11

of things. So those are animals that get

9:13

specific training to remediate and help out with

9:15

a specific disability. And there are

9:17

psychiatric service animals and it takes about 12

9:19

to $15,000 to train one and they're very,

9:21

you know, bonded to the person. But those are

9:24

not pets. Those are working animals. Whereas ESA's

9:26

are more, you know, they can be your

9:28

pet. And in the middle between

9:30

ESA's and service animals are therapy

9:32

dogs or if they can be

9:34

therapy horses or facility dogs. So

9:37

if you go to a hospital or a school

9:39

and they have a dog that just stays there

9:41

and helps people out, well, they get a certain

9:43

level of training to make sure that they're non-reactive,

9:45

that they're going to be able to pet by

9:47

random strangers and also not be too interested in

9:50

going and getting food from the garbage, things like

9:52

that. So the training to

9:54

become like a therapy dog, it takes several

9:56

months and it's, you know, about $1,250 depending

9:58

on where you. Or dollars.

10:00

And if people are curious about could my dog

10:02

become a therapy dog and go and visit other

10:04

people and help them out This good Alliance for

10:06

therapy Dogs which is great place to find more

10:09

information about getting their animal trained or if they're

10:11

animal be a good set. So. Many

10:13

animals just don't have the temperament are a

10:15

little too hyper are there lessons? So again

10:17

it's a great service and applause for Patrick's

10:19

We do have a team of therapy dog

10:21

handlers but that group is only in the

10:23

Chicago area just dad north of Chicago where

10:25

we do our visit again. Seldom Rts a

10:27

work is national so anyone around the country

10:29

is they have a young person in their

10:31

life or if their parents and young people.

10:33

So if a person is fifty seven. But.

10:36

They're dealing with depression anxiety themselves and they

10:38

could benefit analysis for an animal that go

10:40

to pass or Patrick's website. And. We

10:42

can help provide them up to five hundred

10:44

dollars to acquire an animal and up to

10:46

five hundred dollars for training of animal Man.

10:49

So and it's just some basic skills training.

10:51

Been Argos just to help as many people

10:53

as we possibly can. To. Me saying.

10:55

It's amazing. We were dog people

10:58

and I see such a deaf

11:00

friends in. All of us were

11:02

and we just take. A minute

11:04

and said. With. The dog

11:06

and be present with that eyes. And.

11:09

Who's gonna new dogs? Not even a

11:11

month ago? And we're finding

11:13

our any He. Senses.

11:15

When he thinks that someone is upset

11:17

or or hundred dog is upset and he

11:19

will come and be with you. oh

11:21

which is amazing and own. I think

11:23

they have a lot of times as instincts

11:26

to be really support as soon as

11:28

and seeing him as you're talking. one

11:30

of my kids graduate from college a

11:32

couple years ago. They're all kinds of

11:34

emotional support animals and her dorms. who's

11:36

I was really surprised about because I thought

11:38

wow how you know it must be

11:40

really tough to get that approved As

11:42

really happy to see that as possible Now.

11:45

They're a cat. There is a rabbit. There

11:47

are of sorts of different animals all over

11:49

campus for that, which I was really, really

11:52

thankful to see because I think that you

11:54

know we just need to be more open

11:56

to the things that work for people. What

11:58

is going to help? When feel

12:00

safe in an environment like

12:02

I imagine that. Patrick.

12:05

When he was at school and he would

12:07

say I wanted to go home, be of

12:09

my dog in feel safe at school, he

12:11

didn't feel unsettled and secure. And.

12:13

Here on this podcast your

12:16

our audience. Most. Of

12:18

the kids that we have

12:20

have that struggle, they don't

12:22

feel safe in different environments

12:25

and so imagining just having

12:27

an animal that can help

12:29

to temper some of that

12:32

is such a guest and.

12:35

When. It also helps with that interaction socially

12:37

for so many people have social anxiety disorder

12:39

our you know I can't like making eye

12:42

contact with people can be really challenging but

12:44

when you have the dog i know the

12:46

names more my neighbors' dogs that I know

12:48

the names of my gamers steroids a just

12:50

really helps his us the lubrication to out

12:53

of that social interaction. It helps not just.

12:55

The. Person on that for that has the cat. but

12:57

the for five other people who are going to

12:59

get to interact with that cat you know different

13:01

times and I can. I think we should think

13:03

about it like the way we think on music.

13:06

We all know that music helps people to feel

13:08

past to match their mood. But. We

13:10

have to be respectful of others. were listening to

13:12

music year we can't be blasting music a free

13:14

and morning and similar was with our animals. We

13:17

have to make sure our animals are not causing

13:19

others discomfort. So what are they taking care of

13:21

their for in their dander in their waists was

13:23

making sure that they're not loud at different times.

13:26

so get another role that I have as condition

13:28

when I'm helping people. Has to say

13:30

is this can be the right animals with the

13:32

space and time that you're in right now. So

13:34

you might want a giant huskies but it's a

13:37

good for both the husky and for you to

13:39

be a little dorm room. Maybe a rabbit is

13:41

a better fit for right now. So posture Patrick

13:43

we almost never say no but we say we

13:46

might say not yet in because we really want

13:48

to make sure that the pairing a sustainable because

13:50

it is really uncomfortable for people when that animal

13:52

has to be rehomed. So a oh and that

13:55

people wonder about like what is the assets are

13:57

all these therapists who people reach out to about

13:59

immortals. foreigner Do they just give a letter to everyone? And

14:02

the answer is no. But more often

14:04

than not, our bias is going to be

14:06

to say yes, just like we would say yes to a

14:08

person exercising or a person listening to music. Why

14:11

wouldn't we say yes if there was a good reason not to?

14:21

I can imagine some people feel like distraction

14:24

is an issue. I can remember when

14:26

my son was really young in elementary

14:28

school and he would have different tools

14:32

or things for maybe focusing

14:34

like fidgets or one teacher

14:36

had given him some games. So

14:39

if he was working a

14:41

puzzle or something, he was able to listen

14:43

better. But what happened was all

14:45

the other kids wanted to see what he was

14:47

doing all the time. And

14:49

it wasn't a problem for the teacher, but

14:52

it was a problem for him. He

14:54

didn't want to be a

14:57

distraction. He didn't want kids to

14:59

be like crowding around and asking

15:01

him questions, right? And so he would

15:03

often resist some of that. But I think

15:05

also too, I can hear like, you know,

15:07

professors in a college or teachers in a

15:09

high school saying this is such a distraction.

15:12

Everybody wants to pet the animal or something

15:14

like that. So how do you

15:16

help people navigate those conversations

15:18

and those challenges? Well,

15:22

again, for most of the people who have an ESA,

15:24

it's not going to be in the school. It's not

15:26

going to be in the classrooms. You

15:28

know, and if it's more of that like service

15:30

animal level, it would be saying like, well, could

15:32

a wheelchair be distracting? Could a person coming in

15:34

with crutches be distracting? Yeah, it could be distracting.

15:36

But if that's what that person needs in order

15:38

to be able to access that environment appropriately, then

15:41

it just isn't up for the professor to debate.

15:43

And that's why, again, that extra training for therapy

15:46

dogs and service animals is that they're working and

15:48

they're really trained well to not be distracting to

15:50

others. If other people are distracted by that, you

15:52

know, to say that we just, hey, if a

15:54

person's truly beautiful or handsome, they might be distracting,

15:56

but we don't ban them from classes. You

15:59

know, so. Good point. Yeah

16:01

and I think too that dies down

16:03

over. Time, you know he was really into

16:05

that about something new or eventually really it uses

16:07

of it and I I would hope that a

16:10

lot of schools would be of interest as I

16:12

set. My son really struggled on the environment and.

16:14

Oh my gosh, if he had an animal west. Just.

16:17

Zero An. Hour a day at school.

16:20

like of the school had a dog. That

16:22

was there, you know, would meet a

16:24

huge difference into helping him to feel

16:26

safe and how many years nervous system

16:28

be son old. I hope

16:30

that we keep moving forward and

16:33

districts of having more and more

16:35

animals Being part of therapy, Being

16:37

part of environments where people struggle.

16:41

When. If if they're people listen to this and

16:43

they think our facility dog that's what we call

16:45

a.like a therapy dog stays at the school. And

16:48

if you take a facility dog will be a

16:50

good thing for their school is reach out to

16:52

their school board members and say we support this.

16:55

A lot of people who are unfamiliar with facility

16:57

dogs have a lot of years about insurance and

16:59

what if the dog bites some or what if

17:01

there's allergies. And what schools who

17:03

have facility dogs have found is being comes

17:05

to the curb. The animals that

17:07

are trained to be for Saudi dogs are picked

17:10

because they are non reactive. They also do there

17:12

is there are insurance policy so god forbid something

17:14

were to happen and that gets calculated and the

17:16

cost of having it. And that's an

17:18

area future growth for passer Patrick. Eventually we

17:20

want to get more into that space of

17:22

helping schools to have those conversations with their

17:25

school boards with administrators. To say again, if

17:27

we if we can help one family by

17:29

putting an animal on earth, we can help

17:31

thousands of kids Sometimes forget that facility dogs

17:33

as they're working and so that is an

17:35

area future growth and I think I hope

17:37

more years we'll see no Definitely was thinking

17:39

as you're talking. When. My son temps

17:41

to talk to me about stuff that he

17:43

finds challenging to talk about. He will come

17:46

along up on his lap. And

17:48

I just now mean that connects

17:50

and that every. Mine we

17:52

have a difficult conversation or

17:54

something. You know that he

17:56

just am struggling with emotionally.

17:58

He's calling that. up to

18:00

him before he even

18:03

starts. And I had

18:05

not really thought about it that deeply until

18:07

we've had this conversation. So it's

18:09

just amazing that there are

18:11

so many options to help with

18:13

mental health. And we

18:16

just need to keep having these conversations so more

18:18

people know about it. I mean, I can

18:20

imagine a world where every school has a therapy

18:23

dog. That would be just amazing.

18:26

You know, sensory rooms and all of these

18:28

other things that so many students need. I

18:30

think more now, you know, my

18:32

kid was mostly in school pre-pandemic. And

18:35

so it felt like we

18:37

were just asking for things for kids

18:39

who are neurodivergent. But now

18:42

we have so many more kids who

18:44

are struggling with depression and anxiety. So now

18:46

there's even a bigger population, I think, in

18:48

the schools who could benefit

18:51

from lots of these different

18:53

things, not just animals. When

18:57

we find that the animals help

18:59

to produce the stigma because everyone is

19:02

so open about talking about how animals

19:04

help improve their mental health. So

19:07

if I took the most emotionally healthy person

19:09

on the planet, but then I also paired

19:11

them with an animal, they would probably be feeling even better.

19:14

And what it helps us to realize is that like

19:16

mental health, like self-esteem, isn't high or low, it's not

19:18

good or bad. We're all a spectrum of people like

19:20

a mountain range. And we have our good days and

19:22

our bad days. And so the

19:25

more we stop thinking about people with mental

19:27

health issues in one category and healthy people

19:29

in another category, and instead say we are

19:31

all these people and we all benefit from

19:33

the animal. And dogs are just

19:35

a great way for your average person to

19:37

open up and to feel like comfortable talking

19:39

about the ways that those animals make them

19:42

feel better. And then that helps us to

19:44

open into so many other aspects of talking

19:46

about mental health. And the way that our

19:48

mental health differences can actually

19:50

be strengths. And so

19:52

that's what we find is reducing the stigma

19:54

through introducing the animal of the conversation. So

19:57

good. Let's talk a little bit about the process because I

19:59

think a lot of. people don't even know where

20:01

to get started. Obviously, they can go to

20:03

Pause for Patrick website. We'll link that up

20:05

in the show notes and

20:08

connect with your organization there.

20:11

But just kind of if we could walk through

20:13

that process a little bit so people understand what

20:15

that might look like, I think that would

20:17

be really helpful. Yeah,

20:20

so let's say a person realizes that they have,

20:22

if they have a mental health disability or they

20:24

think they might, and they are a

20:27

young person, they could reach out to Pause for Patrick. But any

20:29

person, if they're working with a therapist, they

20:31

could say, hey, I think I might benefit

20:33

from my animal or getting an animal to

20:35

be an ESA. So they can talk

20:37

to their therapist about writing them a letter. Or

20:40

even again, they're a psychiatrist, a medical doctor,

20:42

anybody who's in their health team could write

20:44

one of these letters. If

20:46

that person's not sure how to do it, you

20:48

can refer that person to Pause for Patrick, you can refer them

20:51

to me, and I will teach people how to write these letters

20:53

because it's a super easy thing to do once you learn how

20:55

to do it. The main thing that has to go in the

20:57

letter is the date, the fact that it

20:59

has to be on the practitioner's letterhead. And as I

21:01

say, the practitioner has to say that legally they are

21:04

verifying that this person does have a disability and that

21:06

it might be benefited. And that's really all that has

21:08

to go into the letter. So people

21:10

are sometimes concerned. I don't necessarily wanna share

21:12

my diagnoses with my landlord or other people,

21:14

and they don't have to. So,

21:17

and people I think should be cautious about who

21:19

gets their medical information. So again,

21:21

if they're working with a medical practitioner, a therapist,

21:23

anyone like that, they can ask them about it.

21:25

And then once they get that letter, they

21:28

can submit that to their landlord or

21:30

to the university where they are living.

21:33

Some places will say that it has to

21:35

be renewed year after year. There's legally no

21:38

reason for that. I mean, I wish anxiety

21:40

ran out after a year. I wish ADHD

21:42

stopped existing after a year. But we find

21:44

that it's often easier just to write an

21:46

updated letter than to fight with people on

21:48

it. And so when talking

21:50

to landlords and things like that about this experience,

21:52

especially there are some people who don't fall under

21:54

HUD and FHA, as I say it, if it's

21:56

an owner occupied too flat, they don't have to

21:59

allow you to. to have your ESA. So

22:01

just explaining to them, this is how the

22:03

animal helps me to feel my best. And

22:06

this is what it does for me. And

22:08

then very frequently, they'll be telling stories. If I'm

22:10

that landlord, I'm nervous that my apartment's gonna smell

22:12

like cat pee. I want to make sure that

22:14

I know that this animal is being taken care

22:16

of. So the more you're expressing that you're responsible

22:18

and that you're doing this for a reason, the

22:20

more open they're probably gonna be to that. And

22:22

then what about training? I know you

22:25

said there were different levels of training. As

22:28

I said, training is not national. Okay. So

22:32

for emotional support animals, don't require any training

22:34

whatsoever. Your fish or tarantula doesn't require any

22:36

of it. For those, say, therapy

22:38

dogs, for the service animals, again, for therapy

22:41

dogs, reach out to the Alliance for Therapy

22:43

Dogs. For service animals, you're gonna want to

22:45

probably Google your zip code and service animal

22:48

training to find something that's local to you.

22:50

Yeah. I just wonder about that process, too.

22:52

Like, I think, you know, we think that

22:54

it's gonna be

22:57

so expensive to have any sort of

22:59

support animal. So it's so good to be letting

23:02

everybody know here that an emotional

23:04

support animal needs no specific training.

23:06

Obviously, I think you need a good

23:08

connection with the animal. You know, they need to allow

23:10

you to connect when you need to

23:12

connect, but other than that, there's nothing

23:15

specific. And then we moved to

23:17

therapy dog, which you said was

23:19

a more moderate cost, right, versus

23:21

a service animal. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

23:25

And we shouldn't be really trying to encourage people who are not

23:27

animal people. There are some people who just don't

23:29

like that. And so if

23:31

your child doesn't really like animals, and they

23:33

don't enjoy interacting with them, let's not try

23:35

to put a spare peg into a round

23:38

hole. Let's reinforce the things that are working,

23:40

but not push for something to do. That's

23:42

a good point. I'm glad you brought that up. Because there are kids who fear

23:44

animals. There are kids who just don't connect with

23:47

them. It's not their wheelhouse. And for them, it's

23:49

not going to be beneficial. You can force it

23:51

on them, but it's not gonna work because they're

23:54

not into it. So I'm really glad that you brought that

23:56

up. Anything else we need to talk about before we get

23:58

started? we wrap up anything

24:01

else that you think people need to know

24:03

about the process or just having

24:05

that emotional support when it's needed?

24:09

Well, I just think the one other misconception that I'll

24:11

share is a lot of the people who are

24:14

there's a lot of angry people online

24:16

who are very they actually love emotional

24:18

support animals, but they're nervous that the

24:20

rights of emotional support animals are going

24:22

to get taken away because of what

24:24

they would be like scam websites or

24:26

things like that. There are

24:28

organizations like CertiPet or Petable that a person can

24:30

go and if you don't have a therapist and

24:33

you want to find someone to write an emotional

24:35

support animal for you, they will pair you with

24:37

a clinician. And there is

24:39

ethically and legally nothing wrong with CertiPet

24:41

or Petable or any of these other

24:43

organizations. These are clinicians who

24:45

are actively interviewing a person and making

24:48

sure that they meet the criteria. So,

24:51

again, if you're hearing that, oh, you have to be working

24:53

with a person for three months or you have to be

24:56

certified in a different way, that's not true. There

24:58

are some limitations state by state, so you want

25:00

to check in your state what the laws are,

25:02

but in general, up to the clinician's

25:05

judgment of does this person qualify. And

25:08

again, when I was working in an emergency room, I

25:10

had to decide in an hour if a person could

25:12

go home or if they had to be hospitalized. So

25:14

I think I can figure out in an hour whether

25:16

or not a person might benefit from an emotional support

25:18

animal. So, and people say, well, why can't we make

25:20

them wait a little bit longer? Well, I've worked with

25:22

a couple of people who are in homeless shelters who

25:24

won't leave for housing unless they can have their animal

25:27

with them. This is really important

25:29

to people. So why would we

25:31

put extra barriers in the way of people

25:33

who can truly benefit from the resource? Yeah,

25:36

such good work you're doing. I appreciate all

25:39

that you're doing to support emotional support animals,

25:41

but also your work in mental

25:43

health and just helping people. It's so

25:45

great to get to be a helper in the

25:47

world. I'm sure you feel that way too, and

25:50

I appreciate each person who's doing that. So

25:52

I thank you also for providing

25:54

some of your time here and your wisdom

25:56

and letting everybody know, really,

25:59

miss busting. because even I thought emotional support animals

26:01

had some training, right? Like I even came into

26:03

this conversation and learned a good bit from you.

26:05

So I know that it's really going to be

26:07

beneficial to so many people. I do

26:10

want to let everyone know that

26:12

you can get links to Paws

26:14

for Patrick, as well as Dan's

26:16

podcast and also anything

26:18

that we've mentioned. So things like

26:20

Sort of Pet and Petable, I will link

26:22

all of that up for you at the

26:25

show notes. And you can get those at

26:27

parenting8hdandautism.com slash

26:29

262 for episode

26:31

262. And I

26:34

certainly encourage everyone to connect and

26:36

learn more and see

26:39

if you or your child or

26:41

your students at your school might benefit

26:44

from some of the work that Paws for Patrick is

26:46

doing. And I just thank you again,

26:48

Dan. It was a pleasure. And

26:50

I will see everyone next time. Take good

26:52

care.