0:03

So everyone has resilience margin and it

0:05

differs from situation to situation. For example,

0:08

some kids are great at jokes. They

0:10

can make a joke about themselves and

0:12

they don't mind it if someone criticizes

0:14

them to their face. It's

0:17

no big deal. So they have a lot

0:19

of margin in resilience. It's not offensive to

0:21

them. But let's say someone leaves them out

0:23

of a group and that was like an

0:25

important party to go to in their mind.

0:27

It's a big deal. Well, their frustration tolerance

0:29

lowers and the importance of the offense rises.

0:33

Welcome to the Beautifully Complex

0:35

podcast where I share insights

0:37

and strategies on parenting neurodivergent

0:39

kids straight from the trenches.

0:42

I'm your host, Penny Williams. I'm

0:44

a parenting coach, author and mindset mama honored

0:47

to guide you on the journey of raising

0:49

your atypical kid. Let's

0:52

get started. Welcome

0:55

back, everybody. I am so excited

0:57

today to have Brooks Gibbs here

1:00

with me and we are going

1:02

to talk about emotional resilience and

1:04

bullying as much as we can

1:06

fit in in this episode. But

1:08

I want to start first, just

1:10

have you introduce yourself, Brooks, for

1:13

anybody who's listening. Let them

1:15

know who you are and what you do. Thank

1:17

you so much for having me on

1:19

your podcast. My name is Brooks Gibbs.

1:21

I'm a resilience educator with a

1:23

PhD in social psychology and

1:26

for 25 years since Columbine,

1:29

where I lived after the

1:31

shooting and traveled and spoke

1:33

with kids from Columbine. I didn't go to that

1:35

high school, but many of my friends did. And

1:38

that was the birthplace of the anti-bullying movement. So

1:41

25 years since Columbine. And

1:43

I've been speaking on this topic of aggression.

1:45

I have a unique approach to it in

1:47

that I don't like the word bully. I

1:49

don't like the word bullying. And

1:52

I'll explain why later. And I think

1:54

if we want to solve this problem, we have to retire

1:56

the word. That's always the first step. And then we have

1:58

to look at the science of aggression. What's really

2:00

going on? And then what is

2:02

a simple solution so that kids don't

2:04

needlessly suffer? Well, let's jump into that.

2:07

Why do we not use the

2:09

word bullying and how do we describe it instead? Because

2:14

bullying is a very difficult

2:16

idea to understand. If

2:19

you ask any parent or student

2:21

what is bullying, they will tell

2:23

you pretty much the same answer,

2:25

any unwanted behavior. They

2:28

might add, if they're thinkers, any unwanted

2:30

behavior that I told them to stop

2:32

doing but they won't stop doing to

2:34

demonstrate pervasiveness. But

2:37

if you ask a teacher or a counselor or a

2:39

school administrator who's been trained

2:42

in the OVAS definition

2:44

of bullying along with co-author

2:46

Susan Limber, it's really

2:48

three things have to be involved for

2:51

something to be qualified as bullying. There

2:53

has to be intent to do harm.

2:55

Number two, there has to be

2:57

an imbalance of power, psychological power.

3:00

And number three is it has to

3:02

be pervasive, meaning repeated over time. Now

3:05

those definitions have morphed a

3:07

little bit here and there, but they're basically

3:09

the same. Those three things are

3:11

always present. And so when a

3:14

parent goes to a school administrator and

3:16

says, my child's being bullied, well,

3:18

the administrator is going to say, what happened? Well, what

3:21

do you mean? It doesn't matter

3:23

what happened. She was called a name, she was told

3:25

to stop and she didn't stop. So she keeps calling

3:27

my daughter a name. Well, I'm sorry.

3:29

I know

3:31

the backstory and there was an intent to inflict

3:33

harm on your child. They were just joking. It

3:36

wasn't repeated over time. This is not an ongoing

3:38

problem. This just happened once in this way. I

3:40

know she did as exclusive things.

3:42

She didn't invite her to a party

3:44

last week, but that's a totally different

3:47

behavior. So the same behavior is not

3:49

repeated over time. And sometimes your daughter

3:51

is called the bully by this girl

3:53

who feels like she's weaker than your daughter is.

3:56

And so I really can't prove imbalance of

3:58

power. And so no, administrator can

4:00

ever actually admit that bullying never

4:02

happened on campus because they're

4:05

stuck with the definition that's

4:07

impossible to apply. And

4:09

I'll give you a good example, Penny. What

4:11

psychological instrument do we have to

4:14

measure a child's psychological power?

4:17

And then we can objectively compare the

4:20

two. Oh, she clearly has less psychological

4:22

power. She has more

4:24

psychological power. Therefore, I know who the bully

4:26

is and I know who the victim is.

4:28

There's no such thing. It doesn't exist. All

4:31

we can do is see who's upset more.

4:34

But that's not the act of science. That's

4:36

an act of discernment or

4:38

evaluation of a situation.

4:41

What about intent? Most kids

4:44

say, I'm not a bully. I

4:46

don't identify as a bully. I'm a victim. She

4:48

did this to me. That's why

4:50

I did that to her. So there was

4:52

an intent to do harm. There were simply

4:54

retaliatory feelings that happened without even thought. Or

4:57

maybe they were trying to be funny or maybe they were being

4:59

critical. So this

5:01

is such a hot mess. That's why there is

5:03

no, from my understanding, and I could be wrong,

5:05

but I doubt it. I don't

5:07

think there's a single working anti-bullying expert

5:10

today. The anti-bullying movement

5:12

did not survive COVID.

5:15

When all the schools went back, most

5:17

anti-bullying programs were canceled. And

5:20

they were traded in for mental health

5:22

resources, social and emotional learning, resilience

5:25

education. Because anti-bullying

5:27

has failed because no

5:29

one actually can define it. No one knows what's

5:31

really going on. And so we're going back to

5:33

some old social skills. Yeah. And

5:35

I hear you talking about looking deeper at

5:38

the behavior and what's really underneath it, which

5:40

we talk so much about here on

5:42

the podcast and when we're working with neurodivergent

5:45

kids. But I know that it is the

5:47

way that we should be looking at all

5:49

kids and all behavior. We

5:51

tend to judge behavior from what it

5:54

feels like on the surface instead

5:56

of really digging deeper as you're talking

5:58

about and figuring out. What is

6:01

going on underneath? Why is I behavior

6:03

happening? I think you know to your

6:05

point of we just label someone is a bully and

6:07

we asked them not to do it again. What

6:10

difference? might that make sense on a

6:12

lot? For a year we have to

6:14

dig deeper. And plus calling kids bullies

6:16

his Name calling. Who know they were

6:18

against name calling and yet we label

6:20

kids bully said such a logical absurdity.

6:22

It's it's a contradiction. But.

6:24

You're right, Tinny The Why? Is

6:27

the bull's eye to solve the social

6:29

problem? And. There are only

6:31

for reasons why any one is

6:33

ever aggressive. I don't care if is

6:35

a squabble on a school. Or. If

6:38

it's the international war between

6:40

countries, There's. Only four motivations

6:42

of aggression. The. First motivation

6:44

is someone's trying to bother

6:46

you or have psychological power

6:48

over you bothers. That is

6:50

a classic sibling rivalry issue.

6:53

Usually in a home you've got one who

6:55

loves to bother and another one who's easily

6:57

bother. And. In there lies the

6:59

toxicity. So that's one motivation.

7:01

I did like Butter and his assistant. I drove

7:03

me crazy. They can you angry? The.

7:05

Second motivation behind aggression: His

7:08

humor. And humor is

7:10

extremely violent. people don't realize it. It's

7:12

always x somebody is expense and

7:14

compliments or never funny only insults

7:17

or funny. So. Is

7:19

to be funny, you have to violate a

7:21

know him which is typically insulting. And

7:24

no one needs to be harmed. You know

7:26

there's posted laugh at a joke about themselves. Well

7:28

when they don't laugh and the there is harm

7:30

it's not funny to that person but it might

7:33

be funny to the comedian who told the joke.

7:35

So the third reason why people are aggressive as.

7:38

Well. They're hurt by the other person

7:40

isn't like I mentioned earlier. I.

7:42

Did this because you said this and you're not

7:44

supposed sit at. The. Fourth and

7:46

final reason why someone might be

7:48

aggressive is because they're critical. They're.

7:50

Wanting to help you improve their pointing

7:52

out a flaw in telling you about.

7:55

Well. someone's very sensitive to criticism and

7:57

they can't take the criticism They're

8:00

going to call that bullying, and they believe

8:02

that's attacking them. When really, the

8:04

most loving thing you can do is tell

8:06

a friend what's wrong with them. That's

8:08

what friends do, faith for the wounds of a

8:11

friend. It's enemies that actually

8:13

say, no, keep acting stupid. Keep doing exactly

8:15

what you're doing. You don't need to change

8:17

anything. Now, if there's a flaw, a

8:19

friend will point it out. But we

8:21

translate that as bullying. Let's

8:24

talk about emotional resilience, because I know you talk about

8:26

that a lot in your work, and I see

8:29

often in my

8:31

work with neurodivergent or neurodiverse

8:34

families in classrooms that

8:37

we struggle with building resilience

8:40

in neurodivergent kids. It's something that

8:42

we have to really focus on

8:44

and be very mindful about working

8:46

on grit and resilience both. So

8:48

I would love to

8:50

talk more about how do we

8:52

build that emotional resilience, where I think

8:55

then kids can not have

8:57

a buffer, but kind of have the

8:59

almost perspective to be able

9:01

to look at these reasons that you've given in

9:04

a more objective way

9:06

almost. Is that true? Yes.

9:08

Yeah, they can think about it objectively,

9:10

not subjectively, all tied in emotions. That

9:13

certainly helps. That's why viewing things like

9:15

games, playing games is what I like

9:17

to do with kids, so that they

9:19

can understand what's going on

9:22

in a spirit of play. But to

9:24

answer your question about resilience, like what

9:26

is resilience? I think the clinical terminology

9:28

for resilience would be best rephrased as

9:31

frustration tolerance. So

9:34

someone with high frustration tolerance would be

9:36

considered resilient. Someone with a

9:38

low frustration tolerance would be considered not

9:41

resilient. And so how do

9:43

we raise the frustration tolerance, the ability

9:46

to endure a harsh reality, whether

9:49

that's a brightness of the light,

9:51

whether that's the noise in the room, whether

9:53

that's the touch of a friend who's tapping

9:56

them on their shoulder, whether that's a criticism,

9:58

a joke, someone's When trying

10:00

to bother them. Are you know

10:02

someone who's upset with them Like all

10:04

these things? Whether they're tactile, weather's kinesthetic,

10:06

or whether it's environmental, they can raise

10:08

or frustration tolerance. And the easiest way

10:11

to raise someone's frustration tolerance is to

10:13

lower the importance of the offense in

10:15

lower the importance of in a sense.

10:17

And so that's where the real work

10:19

is done. Effect? That's where most of

10:21

my life's work is done. Is

10:23

helping people lower the importance of innocence

10:26

and so I like to use the

10:28

the example of a industrial elevator. Typically.

10:31

In a commercial building you'll see elevators open.

10:33

Left and right. But. An industrial

10:35

can. a warehouse environment because up and down

10:37

you know, and they close together. they rise

10:39

together and even go in and out of

10:42

an elevator. Well. If you

10:44

push plus a down on the lower

10:46

part of the industry elevator, the top

10:48

without even touching it will automatically rise.

10:51

And. That's how I view resilience. Work

10:53

is if we can lower the importance

10:55

of a fence. Frustration.

10:57

Tolerance Rt rises in the

11:00

lower the offenses, the higher

11:02

the tolerances and now I

11:04

call that resilience margin. So.

11:06

Everyone has resilience margin. And.

11:08

It differs from situation the

11:11

situation for example. Some. Kids

11:13

are great at jokes. That. Could

11:15

make a joke about themselves and they don't

11:17

mind. it is someone criticizes them. To their

11:19

face. it's no big deal, So. They

11:22

have a lot of margin in resilience.

11:24

It's not offensive to them. But.

11:26

Let's see someone least amount of the group. And.

11:28

That was like an important party to go to in

11:30

their mind. And. They really upset about

11:32

their offended by it. It's a big

11:34

deal. while their frustration tolerance lowers and

11:36

the importance of the offense rises and

11:39

their margin is minimal, So. We

11:41

want to say, what Is your

11:43

child consistently upset over. That

11:46

you hear the complaints again and again and

11:48

again. it may not be name calling me

11:50

not be social exclusion and may not even

11:52

be pushes or shoves, but a summer's talking

11:54

bad about me behind my back. that's verbal.

11:57

indirect aggression gossip rumors online

11:59

comments are trolling, their imagination

12:01

goes wild and they can't stand that sort of thing.

12:04

So we have to target it. And

12:07

for kids who are neurodiverse,

12:09

these can be very much environmental,

12:11

you know, noises and light and

12:14

things like this. And so I have

12:16

more questions for this community than I have

12:18

answers for. I know the laws that govern

12:20

human psychology and social

12:23

dynamics, and those will never

12:25

change, but I often

12:27

have questions of how can we transfer this

12:29

information to a child. There

12:31

was a school here in Clearwater, Florida, where

12:33

I live. They go through my curriculum and

12:36

it's a school that's really dedicated to the

12:38

autistic population. And these children

12:40

love my videos. But I asked

12:42

the headmaster, I said, how do you apply my

12:45

teachings? And she says, it's

12:47

basically exposure response, provision therapy, because

12:50

sometimes talking and explaining things

12:52

logically can only go so

12:54

far. It's like anyone with OCD knows that

12:56

talk therapy doesn't do a dang thing for

12:58

your OCD. You have to

13:01

actually refuse to wash your hands for 30

13:03

minutes, you know, to rage

13:05

against the tendency or compulsion to wash

13:07

them. And so the same problem is

13:09

with those who are neurodiverse. You have

13:12

to in incremental stages in which they

13:14

can handle, expose them to

13:16

the thing that once

13:18

bothered them and see if you

13:21

could expand their resilience margins through

13:23

exposure and talk, you

13:26

know, but expose your first talk second

13:28

for evaluation. Your

13:30

term resilience, that gap there,

13:32

we often call it the window of tolerance,

13:35

right? Because we have to, you know,

13:37

help our kids open that

13:40

window wider and wider, right? So

13:42

like, I love that you equated

13:45

emotional resilience to frustration tolerance. Frustration

13:47

tolerance is something that we

13:49

really struggle with often with our

13:51

kids. And it is

13:54

that building of that muscle, right? We

13:56

need to keep exposing them incrementally.

14:00

in amounts that they can handle, right,

14:03

until we are building that frustration

14:05

tolerance. So we're opening or widening

14:07

that window of tolerance and it

14:10

can be really challenging. My

14:21

own son who's now 21, he had a

14:23

really hard time in high school because

14:26

he would see kids be mean to

14:28

each other, not even to him.

14:30

It bothered him just to see

14:32

or know that it happened, that

14:34

there were people around him

14:36

that were hurt or upset.

14:39

And so we honestly, because it was

14:42

that and other things in the environment,

14:44

we had to pull back on

14:46

how much time he spent at school in

14:48

person for a while and go to that

14:50

place of tolerance because after that he

14:53

would check out and he wouldn't be

14:55

learning, he would just be frustrated, right,

14:57

and that would keep happening. And so

15:00

we had to sort of step back

15:02

to where his window of tolerance was

15:05

and then very incrementally keep pushing

15:07

just a little bit so that

15:09

we could keep widening that window.

15:11

And I think that's a really

15:13

common practice for us in

15:16

neurodiverse communities and

15:18

it helps our kids to sit

15:21

with discomfort, right, which

15:23

is something I think that when we talk

15:26

about poor frustration tolerance, we're

15:28

talking about kids who avoid

15:30

discomfort a lot of times

15:33

and it can be really tough when they're in

15:35

an environment where they can't necessarily just

15:37

avoid it, right? So as you're talking about

15:39

we have to build that resilience, we have

15:41

to widen that margin and it

15:44

can be really challenging. This is

15:46

the downside of empathy. I think

15:48

empathy can be a disability sometimes

15:50

or a handicap. It could certainly

15:52

be a disadvantage when we

15:54

feel too much. I call it

15:56

secondhand victimization. That's the downside of empathy is

15:58

that I actually started take the burden

16:01

of someone else's burden. And

16:03

anyone in the health therapies, you know, has to fight

16:06

this, I should say the health

16:08

industries. Now, this

16:10

is why watching movies with a

16:12

kid like Mean Girls, you

16:14

know, where people are really mean to

16:16

this other girl and you're watching it. But cool

16:19

thing about movies is it keeps everything in context.

16:21

Right. And so it's something that's not bigger than

16:23

you, you actually have it, it does not have

16:25

you. It's not wrapped all around you 360. You're

16:28

not in its environment. It is in your environment.

16:30

So you could go to the TV, hold it,

16:32

shake it, and everything moves.

16:34

So you're actually in control. This

16:37

is the same for horror movies, which are

16:39

very therapeutic for kids who are scared of

16:41

ghosts. Drama, you know, like

16:44

social drama, like Mean Girls, fantastic to show

16:46

kids of how mean people can be. And

16:48

then to talk about it. Yeah. But

16:50

ultimately, here's the crux of

16:52

resilience, as far as I can tell, the

16:55

thing that's hindering their resilience is

16:57

their particularness. Everything must be

16:59

just and so. And

17:01

so we have to help them understand

17:04

that if this is okay, you

17:06

know, it's okay that this happened. Finally,

17:09

there are three things I like to ask a

17:11

kid, and this helps him become

17:13

more flexible. The first question

17:15

I ask is, hey, how could this have been worse?

17:18

At least that guy wasn't murdering that guy. Wouldn't

17:20

that be worse? Instead, he was just yelling at

17:22

him. I know it was uncomfortable to be around

17:25

that type of situation, but good thing he wasn't

17:27

fighting him physically, right? It could have been worse.

17:29

Once the child realizes, yeah, you're right, it could have

17:32

been worse. Then you ask the second question, why

17:34

won't this matter in your future or

17:36

their future? You think they're going

17:38

to forget about it? Yeah, you argue with your siblings and

17:40

you forget about it. They're going to argue and they'll forget

17:42

about it. They'll probably be friends next week, won't they? And

17:45

then the third and final question I say, how could

17:47

this turn out for their good? Or how can

17:49

this turn out for your good? Well, they

17:52

need to have this conversation. It's a tough conversation.

17:54

They're dealing with the problem. That's really good. I

17:56

wish they were a little calmer, but they're not.

17:59

And you know what? It's actually going to turn out for

18:01

their good because their friend is yelling at their other

18:03

friend, you're doing this wrong, that hurt me, you need

18:05

to stop. And that's going to help that person improve.

18:08

And why was this good for you, son, to see? Because

18:11

you're going to be in public places where people are

18:13

yelling, and it's good for you to be around this

18:15

sort of thing so you get used to what it's

18:17

like. You're safe. You just stay out of it.

18:20

Mind your own business. Don't intervene. Let

18:22

them work it out. So it was good that you went through

18:24

this. So reasoning, if

18:26

they're capable, how could it

18:29

be worse? Why won't this matter in my future? How could

18:31

this turn out for my good? That

18:33

helps them give up the grip of

18:35

their rigidity and flexibility starts

18:37

to emerge. Yeah,

18:39

just flexible thinking there. All three of those things

18:42

are really promoting flexible thinking,

18:44

which can be tough. But

18:47

it's a learned skill for some. It's intuitive for

18:49

some, and I think it's a learned skill for

18:52

some. And to

18:54

use my son as an example, again, when he was in

18:56

middle school, he was carpooling with some

18:58

other boys to a charter school. And

19:01

at that age, they tease each other to show

19:04

camaraderie. And he couldn't

19:06

pick up on that at the time. And

19:08

so he thought that they were bullying him.

19:10

They weren't his friends. You know, he would

19:13

come in from school just irate and upset.

19:16

And over time, with a lot of

19:18

these conversations, just like you're talking about,

19:20

he could finally look

19:24

at it as something that

19:26

people do. And we

19:28

gave him the skills to determine what

19:30

the intent was. Were they

19:32

smiling or laughing when they were calling

19:34

you names? You know, did

19:37

they just talk to you like

19:39

normal afterwards? Or did they tell

19:41

you that they wish you would go away, right?

19:43

Like just these things. And I

19:45

think, you know, he's a very

19:47

concrete, literal thinker. And

19:49

a lot of neurodivergent people are. It's

19:52

where that inflexibility comes from. And

19:55

so we can teach them how to

19:57

bend, though, in that thinking. to

20:00

tell you. I listen to your podcast.

20:02

I listened and followed along a little bit with

20:04

your journey. And you

20:07

are a good mother. And you are

20:09

really trying to be the mother that your son

20:11

needs. The

20:14

parent is the therapist. The parent is

20:16

the speech therapist. The

20:18

parent is the physical therapist. The

20:20

parent is the one that is perfectly

20:22

positioned to train themselves to be their

20:24

child's advocate. And I think the dumbest

20:27

thing a parent can do, ask anyone

20:29

with a disability, like a blind disability

20:32

or a quadriplegia disability, they will tell

20:34

you with those kind of like physical

20:36

disabilities, the dumbest thing parents can do

20:39

is solve all their kids problems

20:41

for them. To always take

20:43

them by the armed places.

20:45

Or my wife, she's quadriplegic. There's some things that

20:47

she just, she says, let me try to do

20:49

it on my own. And we've

20:51

been married 23 years and she's become

20:54

quite independent, but she really is quadriplegic.

20:56

All of our limbs are paralyzed. You

20:59

know, so, but she still needs to learn

21:01

how to get around in the world, even

21:03

though she's got these challenges or disabilities. And

21:05

so parents, your love

21:07

must be tough. And

21:09

you're not strengthening your child by

21:12

accommodating them in every single way. And that's

21:14

what I'm seeing in you, Penny, you're doing

21:16

such a good example, good job of saying

21:18

I'm going to increase the load on

21:21

my son because he's going to have to learn how

21:23

to deal with these things. And while it breaks my

21:26

heart, I know it's best for him

21:28

in the long run. And he knows you're his advocate. And

21:30

I think that trust that's built helps him

21:32

take on a little bit more load. So

21:34

Bravo. Yeah, yeah. That was hard one

21:36

wisdom, I have to say, I was definitely a helicopter

21:38

parent starting out and I just wanted to protect

21:40

them from everything, right? And I had

21:43

to really step back and say,

21:45

how are they going to learn? How

21:47

are we going to build that window of

21:49

tolerance, that resilience margin, if we

21:52

swoop in and protect every time

21:55

we can't those two things can't

21:57

exist together. And I talk all

21:59

the time. talking about, it's 90% us,

22:02

the parents or the educators. It's

22:04

the adult, the caring adult with

22:06

the neurodivergent kid. It's 90%

22:08

us understanding and changing

22:10

what is going on

22:12

from our perspective. We're not trying

22:14

to change our kids. They are who they

22:16

are. They have the wiring that they have.

22:18

We're trying to help them navigate a world

22:21

that wasn't built for them in a way

22:23

that feels like success and joy for

22:25

them. And so, you

22:27

know, we know that building that frustration

22:30

tolerance, that resilience is

22:32

super important if

22:35

you are neurodivergent trying to navigate

22:37

a neurotypical world, right? And I think,

22:40

you know, again, we can broaden that to the entire human

22:43

experience. Resilience is what helps

22:45

us navigate, right, the challenges

22:48

of life. Yes. Can

22:50

I ask you a question? I think this is the

22:52

most important question of the podcast. It's not for me.

22:54

It's my question to you. Okay. There's a

22:56

difference between an activist and

22:59

an advocate. Mm-hmm. I've never

23:01

met a happy activist. They're always

23:03

upset, bitching, complaining. But

23:06

I have met people who are advocates that are

23:08

like angels. They're absolutely

23:10

inspirational and they're always for.

23:13

They're not necessarily against, but in their

23:15

for, they're inversely against, if that makes

23:17

sense. They're for something, which means something

23:19

else needs to change. So when it

23:21

comes to a parent advocating for their

23:23

child to the school for

23:26

whatever is necessary for accommodations for

23:28

difficult kids on the bus or difficult kids

23:30

in the school, what would be your advice

23:33

for a parent to be

23:35

an advocate without becoming

23:37

an activist and making

23:39

the school an enemy? It's so

23:41

hard. That's such

23:44

a hard question because the

23:46

dynamics feel like

23:49

it's an us versus them situation. So if you

23:51

walk into a room to an

23:53

IEP meeting, there's one parent,

23:55

sometimes the kid depending on their

23:57

age, and sometimes the

24:00

second parent or, you know, another

24:02

family member. And then the

24:04

rest of the table is people who

24:06

are there from the school's

24:08

perspective advocating for what, you know,

24:11

the teachers and the school needs.

24:13

And we then have to throw

24:16

in these other complications like budgetary

24:18

restraints on the school. So from

24:20

my perspective as a parent, my

24:22

kid has a legal right to

24:25

a free appropriate public education, which means

24:27

it needs to be individualized

24:31

for his needs. But at the

24:33

same time, the school only has so

24:35

many resources, right? And

24:38

the law says that doesn't matter, but

24:40

reality says it does matter, right? And

24:42

so there's all of those kinds of things

24:45

that we really have to navigate

24:47

as a parent that

24:49

just creates that feeling, that

24:51

sense often that it's

24:54

one side versus another side. What

24:56

I learned to do is to

24:58

always come into conversations saying, this

25:00

is what works for us at

25:02

home, or this is something

25:04

that we've seen that's been beneficial. What

25:07

do you think? Do you think

25:09

you could implement this in the classroom? Do

25:11

you think you can make this change for

25:15

this kid? And again,

25:17

I'm going to come back to this so often, what we're

25:19

asking for, for our special needs kids

25:21

is good for every student. I

25:23

host a summit about school struggles once

25:26

a year. I've done that for a

25:28

few years now. And every

25:30

time when we have these expert workshops,

25:32

we're talking to parents and teachers. And

25:35

for teachers, we have to reiterate, like we're

25:37

not asking you to do this for one kid, do

25:39

this for the whole class, because what

25:42

we're talking about can be beneficial for

25:44

the whole class, right? We're looking at

25:46

behavior from that humanistic approach and

25:48

understanding the why. And that goes

25:51

for when kids are having problems

25:53

with other kids socially to, you

25:55

know, feeling safe in the classroom,

25:58

psychologically, emotionally, and socially. And

26:00

so it's tough. It's

26:02

a tough dynamic to navigate as

26:04

a parent. And I

26:06

think it is for educators too, because

26:09

they want the best for kids. They

26:11

wouldn't be an educator if they didn't,

26:13

right? And so I think there's

26:15

just a lot of constraints that we all have

26:18

to sort of accept and

26:20

work on and change as much as

26:22

we can. But it can

26:24

be really tough to be that advocate. Sometimes

26:26

we feel like we're not heard or

26:29

we feel like we don't have enough power.

26:32

I think that is so powerful. You've got to share

26:34

that on your socials. You've got to clip this one

26:36

out because it's very helpful. And

26:38

I would just like to add one thing. The

26:41

Native Americans were really masters

26:43

at conflict resolution. The

26:45

peace pipe comes to mind in a small circle

26:47

of restorative practice of where they would go around.

26:51

And when something happened in the village, the

26:53

chief would basically start

26:55

and finish the meeting with

26:57

the emphasis on responsibility. Here's

26:59

my responsibility. This is where I failed, where I

27:02

believe I need to improve what I think that

27:04

I can do. Here's my son's

27:06

responsibility, what I think he needs to grow in

27:08

and what I'm going to challenge him to grow

27:10

in. What could you be

27:12

responsible for to help? In other words,

27:14

everyone, instead of shifting blame, they

27:17

take personal responsibility for improving

27:20

the situation. And everyone's

27:22

responsible. In the Native American

27:24

communities, it is truly a village. The

27:26

village let you down. The village

27:29

takes responsibility. And we're not going to leave

27:31

here until everyone has something that they

27:33

can contribute, take responsibility

27:35

for improving the situation for this

27:38

kid that we're all gathered here to talk

27:40

about. So I would just add that as well. I

27:43

love that. Well, it's been really,

27:45

really insightful to talk to you. I

27:48

have looked at a lot of things from

27:50

a different perspective in this conversation. One thing

27:53

that really stood out to me is the idea

27:55

that if we're watching a movie like

27:57

Mean Girls, that we have control. we

28:00

have control over playing the movie and the screen

28:02

that it's on. I never, never would

28:05

have thought of that myself

28:07

and it's really empowering. And

28:09

so I'm so thankful for the perspectives

28:11

that you've shared here that maybe a

28:13

lot of us haven't had yet, haven't

28:16

thought about yet. It's going to

28:18

change hearts and minds, which

28:20

is what we're here trying to do

28:22

so that we can help kids. I

28:24

want to encourage everyone listening

28:26

to connect with Brooks and his

28:28

work. You can go to brooksgibbs.com.

28:31

You can also go to the show notes

28:33

for this episode to find links there to

28:35

his work, also any other resources that we've

28:38

talked about. And those

28:40

can be found at

28:42

parentingadhdandautism.com slash 259 for

28:44

episode 259. And thank you again, Brooks, for

28:47

being here, for sharing with us, and

28:54

also for the work that you're doing in the

28:56

world, helping kids to build

28:58

that resilience and have really

29:00

a better life and a better journey

29:03

of being themselves in the world. I

29:06

really appreciate it. Thank you, Penny. We'll

29:08

see everybody next time. Take

29:10

good care. Thanks for joining me

29:13

on the Beautifully Complex podcast. If you

29:15

enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share.

29:17

And don't forget to check out

29:19

my online courses and

29:21

parent coaching at

29:24

parentingadhdandautism.com and

29:26

at thebehaviorrevolution.com.