0:03

Frequently, the parent or the

0:05

teacher will be ascribing ADHD

0:08

hypotheses or he's just not

0:10

motivated. And I'm like, this

0:13

kid has severe reading problems,

0:16

severe, you know, shutdown learner

0:18

style, significant dyslexia. That

0:20

would undercut any of our motivation. And

0:23

I think that we have to really understand the

0:25

zone that they're in, in terms of what they

0:27

can and can't handle. Welcome

0:30

to the Beautifully Complex podcast, where

0:33

I share insights and strategies on

0:35

parenting neurodivergent kids straight from the

0:37

trenches. I'm your host, Penny

0:40

Williams. I'm a parenting coach,

0:42

author, and mindset mama honored to guide

0:44

you on the journey of raising your

0:46

atypical kid. Let's get started.

0:52

Welcome back to the Beautifully Complex

0:54

podcast. I am so

0:57

super excited to have Dr.

0:59

Richard Selznick here with me, who I

1:02

have been following for years

1:05

for my own instruction in

1:07

learning and my own kid. And so

1:09

I'm really excited to have him here

1:11

on the podcast to talk to us

1:14

about power struggles and shutdown

1:16

learners and all of the good,

1:18

wonderful wisdom that he has to

1:20

share. Will you start

1:22

Dr. Selznick just by introducing yourself? Let all

1:24

of us know who you are and what

1:27

you do. Sure,

1:29

Penny. Thanks for inviting me

1:31

on. I'm excited to be here. Thank you.

1:33

I appreciate you having been following me all these

1:36

years. And I don't know if I do that.

1:39

I'm a psychologist. I've been the head

1:41

of the Cooper Learning Center for a

1:43

number of years. I've specialized

1:46

in kind of this somewhat

1:48

niche-y psychologist. I think of

1:50

myself like, you know, I've

1:52

had this specialty in dyslexia and

1:55

reading and learning

1:57

disabilities, but you know, you can't help it.

2:00

tied into, I think what you've followed over

2:02

the years, where there's a kind of package,

2:05

where it's not just reading,

2:07

it's reading and then behavior,

2:10

ADD comes into

2:12

play, and then the power struggles come.

2:14

That's kind of what I do. Parents

2:16

come to me when they're worried about

2:19

their kid. That's bottom line. And there's

2:21

a lot of it. They want advice

2:23

and they want guidance and it can

2:25

be very, very challenging for parents, as

2:28

I'm sure you can appreciate. And my

2:30

mission, it hopefully comes through

2:32

in the books and the blogs. And as

2:34

I'm talking to you through, we talk to

2:37

parents, mostly to moms, we

2:39

talk to parents in down

2:41

to earth, plain language. There's

2:44

a lot of confusion out there about special

2:47

ed and IEPs and 504s and dyslexia.

2:50

There's just tremendous confusion. And

2:53

then of course, people go on social

2:55

media and try to get more advice.

2:57

So I try to cut through that. That's really

3:00

my mission, to cut through things and to talk

3:02

to you as a parent,

3:05

as straightforwardly as I know how to talk

3:07

to you. And to be as

3:09

honest as I know how to be, because I

3:11

just don't find that the parents are getting that

3:13

as much as I think they should. Yeah.

3:15

And that was why I think your work

3:18

resonated with me, because it

3:20

was kind of boiled down

3:22

to the nitty gritty, right? We're just

3:24

giving the information that we really needed.

3:27

And sometimes it was the truth

3:29

that nobody else was necessarily

3:31

willing to give, right? Which is

3:33

something I've also focused on in my work is,

3:36

let's be honest about this. Because if

3:39

I go to a therapist and I get information

3:41

about my kid who's struggling, and

3:43

then I go home and none of

3:46

it works, or it seems too hard

3:48

to implement, and then I feel bad

3:50

about myself, I think it's me. And

3:53

so we have to be honest about what's

3:55

going on. And as you could appreciate,

3:57

and I, as many years as I've

3:59

been. doing this and I tend

4:02

to think of it as not like what I

4:04

call quote real medicine or you know

4:07

going to the dentist, I'm not knocking dentistry

4:09

but this kind of a you know certain

4:12

problems are handled a certain

4:14

way every time. So

4:17

for me in my work

4:19

it's literally child by child,

4:22

family by family. So

4:24

you know how you come in with whatever

4:26

your circumstances are, it's the easiest thing in

4:28

the world would be to just give a

4:30

reading test and say okay fine it's problems,

4:32

we'll get tutoring. Well you know that's

4:34

not the way to do an assessment but

4:37

I have to kind of feel around the edges

4:39

I think and get a sense of you you

4:41

know I recommend tutoring. What

4:44

if you can't afford it? What if you don't

4:46

have the time for it? What if your husband

4:48

or you don't have one you don't know? I

4:50

don't know you know there's so many variables that

4:52

come up and then

4:54

trying to explain that to parents because they want

4:56

of course well what do we do? You

4:58

know they want the answer and I'm like

5:01

oh I can give

5:03

the answer half the time but I do the best

5:05

I can. Yeah and there isn't one answer

5:07

that's the first thing we have to learn as

5:09

parents there isn't one answer. No

5:11

there isn't and one of my standard lines

5:13

is you know a lot of this work

5:16

sort of depends on whose

5:18

doorstep you land on you know

5:20

so if you go to the neurologist

5:23

you're going to get the problems through

5:25

the lens of a neurologist you know

5:27

and more often than not why I've

5:29

found they're seeing it through the ADHD

5:31

lens and then if you go to

5:33

some other type of professional

5:35

they're seeing it the audiologists seeing it

5:37

through that lens and you know what

5:39

I mean so you can get 10

5:41

different opinions from 10 different professionals. Yeah

5:43

and that could also be bewildering to

5:45

parents. I mean it's

5:47

a complex thing to have learning

5:49

challenges or ADHD or autism it's

5:52

so complex and there are

5:54

no easy answers and this was true for myself

5:56

I started wanting to fix that right I cared

5:58

about my kid he was struggling. I wanted to

6:00

fix it. How old did you try when you

6:02

started? He was

6:04

six, just turned six. And

6:08

clearly something was going on

6:10

and we had a

6:12

great teacher come in in first grade.

6:14

You know, the kindergarten wasn't ideal. We

6:16

switched schools. We had the most wonderful teacher. He

6:18

had his whole career in first grade and still

6:20

there are a lot of problems. And that's when

6:23

we were like, okay, what's happening

6:25

here? You know, and we were

6:27

able to get evaluations and get

6:29

diagnoses and start. But then I

6:31

was like, okay, how do I fix this? How do I make

6:34

him work for school instead of school

6:36

work for him? Right? Because you

6:39

don't know better when you start out and then

6:41

you have to figure that out. And what

6:43

you just said, in fact, I think that I

6:46

forget what I've written at this point. But

6:48

I believe either in my book, School Struggles

6:50

or in Shut Down Learner, the question of

6:52

how do we fix it? And

6:55

without sounding negative, basically we

6:57

don't. And my answer is, well, they're

6:59

not car engines. They're not

7:01

broken. So there's no fixing.

7:03

I understand what's behind the question, you know?

7:06

But that question comes up a whole

7:09

lot in my work. How do we fix it?

7:11

And I'm like, no, how do we fix it?

7:13

Me too. Yeah. And

7:15

I talk so much about the fact that that's the wrong

7:17

question to be asking. You have to shift your

7:19

mindset to the questions that are

7:22

helpful because that one's not. That one just keeps

7:24

you stuck. Let's talk about

7:26

power struggles, Tom. Your new book is Beyond

7:28

Power Struggles, right? I

7:30

think that this is born

7:33

probably from societal pressure, traditional

7:35

parenting, right? And

7:38

the first thing we probably have to do is just

7:40

be able to shift away from that. But

7:42

I'll let you talk a little bit about, you

7:44

know, what do you mean by power struggles?

7:46

Where do we get tripped up? Good

7:49

question. Reflecting on some power

7:51

struggles that came in recently. You

7:54

know, I think you're right that a lot of this

7:56

could be generational. And

7:58

Every generation, every 10 years. How's

8:00

another view of parity and how

8:02

it should be done and how

8:04

kids should be handled. And you

8:06

know I'm obviously not have a

8:08

modern generation the site so think

8:10

so. This is generational. As

8:13

if allies came out and was I have

8:15

found and I don't exactly know why. That

8:18

kids are becoming more and more

8:20

challenging when the parents come into

8:22

consult with me. Who. Frequently

8:25

you know where Meltdown comes

8:27

off? You. Know they're happy.

8:29

Terrence Rooms are having meltdowns. I

8:31

know you're You're involved fairmount with

8:34

Autism and it's not as much

8:36

my world. But. You

8:38

know when the child is having. A.

8:40

Meltdown, When. They're asked

8:42

to do homework or their

8:44

ass to get off the

8:46

screen. or is there It just

8:49

basically fundamentally uncooperative and parents

8:51

feel like you're at a

8:53

loss. And. That's kind

8:55

of genesis of this type of thing. I

8:57

have an approach a mindset for

8:59

parents to try to guide them.

9:02

In. Terms of how to handle these.

9:04

Issues. And it can. They

9:07

are all kinds of furious. I know

9:09

the car was gentle care the adam

9:11

you know for certain his but. I.

9:13

Have a sense that it's not like

9:15

approach not them with advocated a harsh

9:18

fair thrive but you know coaching pairs

9:20

and try to get them to understand

9:22

how to talk to the trial in

9:24

a certain way to the child understands

9:26

like. Oh. I I'd better

9:28

can't get the game here and do with

9:31

my carriage is asking me to do. That.

9:33

Kind of how this book came

9:36

about. Parents are very beleaguered. They

9:38

feel very worn down. who who,

9:40

and. Again, try to give them

9:43

some support and specific advice on how

9:45

to handle he says. Cassidy? Wanna

9:47

talk a little bit about. Served.

9:49

As guiding principles that parents can point

9:51

to help us all. The. One of

9:53

my favorites is the only we saw it in

9:56

a block recently for to always have a month

9:58

for on and move from one end. You.

10:00

Know the man true been. To.

10:03

The fact that we knock them down a rabbit

10:05

hole with a parrot so much your would be

10:07

something like. Remind. Yourself, I'm

10:09

pretty much for one who.

10:12

Don't Take the Bait Reminders of: Don't

10:14

Take the Bait Don't take the bait

10:16

because you know with his point of

10:18

view, what does the kid wants? From

10:21

my perspective, what they want is pleasant.

10:24

You. Know they want to play a discrete they

10:26

want to do with they want to do

10:28

and you know they don't want to do

10:30

something. Get into I call and I have

10:32

you I have you d or something I

10:34

want when I want this aware. That

10:37

the disorder I want what I want. This

10:39

or so the monster would be something like.

10:42

Don't. Take the bait and you remind

10:44

yourself see, just not get into a

10:46

power struggle with trans your to not

10:48

bite on the hook. Another piece of

10:50

advice would be to. Look

10:52

at how you're talking to the child.

10:55

You know that we can help. We get our

10:57

buttons push would take the bait. We start yelling

10:59

in and I try to get Paris to be

11:01

a little bit more mindful of. Anticipated

11:04

this situation like that. We're going to

11:06

a birthday party and the last time

11:08

you were the birthday cards you start

11:11

to grab bush do whatever. So. You

11:13

know, your trials tendencies record in

11:16

the book Cps April as a

11:18

preventive strategic approach. Basically, it's you

11:21

know. pro active. What do I

11:23

know before going into the perfect

11:25

morning? What's the likely tendency. In

11:28

our the eyes of something happening so you know

11:30

the odds. Than. You need to talk

11:32

to the top before it's happening. In

11:35

Oh so like let's talk about the

11:37

last time you went to the birthday

11:39

party it didn't go very well, do

11:41

you why? Well yeah, I kind of

11:43

guy grabbed ipo. that's right, Was.

11:45

Not going to go like that today. Here are

11:48

the rules I like using phrases like here are

11:50

the rules of this is how it's going to

11:52

work. Or here's the deal. And.

11:54

The child knows upfront how it's going to

11:56

go. And here's the key. I think this

11:59

is the As. It's

12:01

the child's choice. They

12:03

could choose well or they could

12:06

choose poorly. You've laid out the

12:09

guidelines, but you would say,

12:11

listen, if you choose well, then everybody's happy.

12:13

You get to play in the birthday party and no, it's

12:15

fine. If you choose poorly, well, then we

12:18

need to go sit outside for a while. Something

12:20

like that. You see what I'm saying? You're losing

12:22

the privilege of being in that party. But

12:25

it's your choice. I think that

12:27

we don't allow this child to make the

12:29

choice. It's well reported back to me that

12:31

that has really impacted their lives when they

12:34

recognize it as a child's choice. It seems

12:36

on some level obvious, like, oh, this is

12:38

all common sense. A lot of it is

12:40

common sense, but it's not as easy to

12:42

implement as it might seem. So

12:49

often, especially for neurodivergent kids, because

12:51

they have the sense of so

12:53

little control over what happens

12:56

to them, that giving

12:58

choice makes them

13:00

less anxious. It makes

13:02

things feel like they're more in their

13:05

control and things tend to go better.

13:08

And it just really helps. I

13:11

don't know how to say it. It's really

13:13

powerful stuff. And I don't know how you

13:15

feel about it because I do struggle with

13:17

neurodivergent kids where I, okay, if

13:19

I'm laying out this mindset for the

13:22

parent and let's say the

13:24

child has been shown to, I'm just

13:26

using ADHD as an example, significant

13:29

ADHD, and I get stuck

13:32

with, all right, is it within the

13:34

child's realm of control to what

13:37

extent? And that always

13:39

becomes like a sticking point for

13:41

me because I do set up

13:44

this model and mostly it works.

13:47

But there are going to be situations

13:50

where because of the neurodivergent issues,

13:52

something else is needed.

13:54

Yeah. I mean, there are certainly times

13:56

where it's not a choice. The behavior is not a choice. They

13:58

get triggered. They get dysregulated. Sensory

14:00

processing is use their overwatch. Yeah,

14:02

there's a lot of triggers. There

14:05

that could make it not. It's

14:07

ways bites being proactive and you're.

14:09

Talking about it beforehand.

14:11

And use appearance. Have been watching and

14:13

you know what the potential triggers are are.

14:16

You. Can make a play

14:18

on you can outline expectations.

14:21

But. Like I love that you say

14:23

instead of like we're going home. As

14:25

you don't follow. The rules were

14:27

sincere. your brakes were gonna go

14:30

outside. You know that's a compassionate

14:32

way to do at that honors

14:34

that? maybe it wasn't necessarily it's

14:36

ways that seeing they clearly need

14:38

a break from the environment frame.

14:41

Or love the preview on a

14:43

copy seems here I'd like to

14:45

believe that what you're doing on

14:47

the phone and his innocence planting

14:50

the seed and the trials definitely

14:52

you don't use talk in a

14:54

somewhat objective com way to strike

14:57

while he ayers close not was

14:59

yards so while before we go

15:01

to the party was. The.

15:03

Last time you went in and

15:06

product discussion very brief. And

15:08

and by letting the child know it's

15:10

not going to happen that way to

15:12

do some real. Good

15:15

luck with the murky thinking Alon or

15:17

know. If you know he

15:19

gets out of here this is what

15:21

would I do and I do agree

15:23

with you that allows work you know

15:25

time now superior to sits over use

15:27

as a me a timeout is kind

15:29

of what are we going to go

15:32

after the car with causes for because

15:34

it's getting too aggressive or whatever suited

15:36

to sit in the car for five

15:38

minutes? From my point of view blitzes

15:40

transcribing about them or otherwise bit of

15:42

a new one of us was your

15:44

job is appear for my a good

15:46

would be. Knocking. Him to

15:48

sit there and read your

15:50

book. We do nothing and

15:52

would find this five minutes.

15:55

Are you ready to go back? in? A. good

15:57

choice now are you a go back

16:00

in. Yes. Okay.

16:02

How do we want it to

16:04

go? Well, you don't want me to push you. No,

16:06

no, no. Right. Brilliant. I like

16:08

joking with you. Brilliant. Yeah. So

16:11

I'm going to watch. Let the child know that

16:13

you're not just talking

16:15

to your sister or something like that and

16:17

having a drink. You're watching the kid. Yeah.

16:19

You know, I'm going to watch. And

16:22

what's going to happen if you start pushing again?

16:25

Well, we go out to the car. Right.

16:28

But then the next time you go to a birthday

16:30

party, I would predict, remember

16:32

how it went the last time. You

16:35

know, what are we going to do?

16:37

The kid will start to really associate

16:40

mom, dad, taking an effective action, giving

16:42

me choice and recognizing

16:44

that my choice has positive consequences

16:47

built in or

16:49

negative ones built in. And you don't have to create all

16:51

kinds of consequences for the parent. You

16:53

know, I'm going to give you all this stuff and

16:55

tokens and am I talking too

16:57

much? No, no, of course not. We're

17:01

learning from you. I would

17:03

add, you know, when we go outside, there

17:06

are things that we can do that

17:08

can help a kid get regulated too.

17:10

So instead of maybe sitting in the car, we

17:13

walk a loop around the parking lot

17:15

or, you know, any sort

17:17

of regulation activity that would help

17:19

to calm their nervous system too, so

17:22

that they can more successfully go back

17:24

in. Totally great. Totally great. And that's

17:26

also why I said in the beginning,

17:28

it's kid by kid, family by family,

17:30

you know, if it's a more manipulative

17:32

type of child who's really trying to

17:35

push and they can control

17:37

themselves, but are choosing poorly, then the

17:39

car may be a boring place to

17:41

sit. On the other hand, if it's

17:43

a child who does get overstimulated, like

17:45

you're suggesting too much sensory overload and

17:47

they, you know, truly can't handle it and

17:49

taking a little walk around would be a nice

17:51

way of settling it all down.

17:54

Yeah, yeah. And I

17:56

think too reflecting later, things

17:58

went badly. you don't reflect then,

18:01

you don't try to teach then. You

18:03

know, I love that you said you just go out there and you sit

18:05

because what we tend to do is

18:07

want to fix it again. And

18:10

so, you know, I call myself the great

18:12

rationalizer. All I did was try

18:14

to rationalize my kid out of every behavior, right?

18:16

I just, I thought if I could just talk

18:19

him down, right? And it

18:21

never, ever, ever, ever worked.

18:24

And it was because he was already

18:26

overwhelmed. He wasn't processing. I was just

18:28

adding to that. And so we

18:30

teach parents all the time in our behavior program, stop

18:33

talking. Just stop talking

18:36

because it's not helping. Zip it and

18:38

clip it. That's another mantra, zip it and clip it.

18:41

I'm trying to practice that as I'm now in the

18:43

zone of being a grandparent, you know? And

18:45

my kids don't want that, my advice. You

18:48

might want my advice, but they don't want it, you

18:50

know? So my mantra to myself

18:52

is zip it and clip it. But I think

18:54

as a parent, sometimes just stop talking so much.

18:56

I agree, you know? Because they don't want to

18:58

hear it, but they have a choice. And I

19:00

go back to that, you know? But

19:02

you're triggering a lot of thoughts. You

19:04

know, with the debriefing, I love some of

19:07

my, especially the kids young, let's

19:09

say, six, seven, eight, nine, you know, sort of

19:11

talk in time. That

19:13

cements a little bit. I'm not

19:15

big on overly, you know, reinforcing,

19:18

you've got to give all this reward

19:20

stuff. You know what? I'm really

19:22

proud of you at the birthday party today.

19:24

I know he's getting a little out of

19:26

hand and you totally followed the rules. And

19:28

I'm really proud of you. I saw what you did and

19:31

it was great. And I hope we do

19:33

that the next time. Ah, you

19:35

know? And it didn't go so well. It's

19:37

like, well, you know, next time we'll try

19:39

to follow the rules better. Yeah.

19:41

Or how do you want it to go different next

19:43

time? Yeah, I do want it to go. Right? Giving

19:46

them that control again, because that gives

19:48

us insight. This came up

19:50

recently where mom had rented,

19:52

you know, one of those bouncy gym

19:55

places. You know, it's expensive to rent

19:57

those things. Yeah. And it

19:59

wasn't for either. her birth and it was just for a treat

20:01

for her child and her

20:03

age, whatever that age range. And

20:06

in about five minutes, the kid got really moody like,

20:08

I don't want to do this, I'm bored. My

20:11

mom's like, so I get upset, I bored, I

20:13

spent all this money, da da da da da

20:15

da da. And you know, again, give me

20:17

the kid choice. Listen, Nate,

20:20

here's the deal. You

20:22

can choose to be miserable. Or

20:25

you can choose to have fun. Here's what the

20:27

kid wanted, frankly, was to go back and play

20:29

on his video games. He wanted to

20:31

go on his screen somewhere and he was bored

20:33

because he didn't have his phone or something. But

20:36

if you're choosing to be miserable, your friends

20:38

can have fun, but you're going to be

20:41

sitting here on a punishment and

20:43

no screen, no phone, no nothing. And that's

20:45

your choice. Again, that takes it pretty

20:47

quickly. Yeah. You

20:50

know, we talked so much here on the

20:52

podcast about preferred tasks and

20:54

non-preferred tasks. And how

20:57

hard it is for a

20:59

neurodivergent brain to really click

21:01

on to a non-preferred task.

21:03

You know, like, for example,

21:05

the ADHD brain, it's motivated

21:07

by interest and urgency, but

21:09

not really by importance. You know, and

21:11

so we are like, well,

21:13

because you've got to do homework, that's why,

21:15

right? But a kid whose brain

21:17

doesn't just go, okay, it's important, I got

21:19

to get in here. It's

21:22

much harder to do that. And

21:24

so there's, you know, there's neurological reasons for a

21:26

lot of our kids for things like that

21:28

too, but they do need to be encouraged

21:32

still to do things

21:34

that are not preferred because that's nice.

21:37

Well, as another mantra, well, you

21:39

know, it's called homework. It's not

21:41

called home fun. And

21:44

then for kids who have learning struggles, that's a whole

21:47

other. Of

21:50

course they're not going to engage if it's that hard, right?

21:52

If it's so non-preferred and

21:54

difficult and I might fail at

21:56

it, why am I going to try? Like, it's

21:59

so hard to make your... yourself try. You know,

22:01

I have a parade of kids that

22:03

I evaluate who just, you

22:05

know, frequently the parents or

22:08

a parent or the teacher

22:10

will be ascribing ADHD hypotheses

22:13

or he's just not

22:15

motivated. And I'm like,

22:17

this kid has severe reading problems, severe,

22:20

you know, shutdown learners style, can't

22:23

read very well, significant dyslexia, that

22:25

would undercut any of our motivation.

22:28

And I think that we have to really, as

22:30

a parent, understand the zone

22:32

that they're in, in terms of what they

22:34

can and can't handle. Yeah, there's always a

22:37

reason. You know, we talk about, oh, my

22:39

kid is not motivated. They don't care about doing

22:41

well in school. Well,

22:43

why? There's something there we could help with.

22:46

You had said something earlier which triggered me, and I

22:48

think it was when you sort of provide your own

22:50

struggles, so to speak, when your child was

22:53

younger. And, you know, I think again, I

22:56

know I can't broad stroke it too much

22:58

for the moms, I spend my impression tend

23:00

to take it on the, you know, the

23:02

burden of, oh, you know, it's my fault.

23:04

You know, I'm doing something I

23:06

should have been doing something differently or not

23:08

enough of or whatever. And the focus of

23:10

these books, including shutdown learner and Beyond the

23:13

Powerstroke, is on the parents,

23:15

but not because it's your fault. But

23:18

it's because you're the one who can

23:20

reflect. Yes. And you're like

23:22

we're doing right now. We're both reflecting going,

23:25

okay, that might be an interesting approach, giving

23:28

the child choice. Or yes, I

23:30

can back off during homework. The

23:32

child is generally not in a

23:34

position to go, oh, let

23:36

me reflect on what you're saying, mom.

23:40

I don't tend to be that introspective,

23:42

my impression. They haven't

23:44

had practice yet. They don't have the skill yet, right?

23:47

But we do. In theory, we

23:49

do. I, you know, I'm

23:51

still working out of myself. We're

23:54

all a work in progress. We all

23:56

have strengths and weaknesses, right? Yeah,

24:00

I really think that,

24:03

you know, understanding what

24:05

is going on, that's our job. And,

24:07

you know, when we're talking about kids with these

24:09

kind of struggles, complex kids, it's

24:12

like 90% us. We

24:14

are the ones who need to do the work. We are

24:16

the ones who need to shift our perspective, dig deeper

24:19

under behavior, you know, have a different

24:21

approach because our kid is different, right,

24:23

or our student is different. And so,

24:26

it's a lot about the work that we

24:28

need to do as the adult. Because

24:30

we're not changing kids, we're

24:32

helping them build skills, find

24:35

their path, their journey, their

24:37

version of success, right? And it has to

24:39

resonate with you. You know, the advice you're

24:41

getting has to resonate with you. One of

24:43

my favorite questions, which I think you'll appreciate.

24:46

And I have found the answer to this, 90,

24:48

I don't know how to say it, to be

24:51

flattering to parents. But I always ask, what's your

24:53

mom got? Most of the time, the mom is

24:55

one coming and bringing the child in to see,

24:57

at least initially. I'm not saying that dad's uninvolved

25:00

if there is. But what's your

25:02

mom got? What do you think is going on?

25:05

And I have found the answer to

25:07

that almost always to be, you know,

25:09

in sync with what I find. You

25:11

know, so the mom says, you know what, I think

25:14

he has a reading problem. I don't know what you

25:16

want to call it. That's his primary issue. And he's

25:18

a little difficult around the edges. And

25:20

then I tune all that out, do my

25:22

assessment. And most of, I say 99%

25:24

time. It's that every once

25:26

in a while, I'll get him, you know, where the mom

25:29

got his like, or mom, he's

25:31

really good shape and he has no

25:33

issues. You know, that kind of thing.

25:35

But there's something much bigger going on.

25:37

But I think it's important as a

25:39

parent to remember that, to trust your

25:41

gut and make sure the advice resonates

25:43

with you. That is advice that you're

25:46

comfortable with. Mm hmm.

25:48

Yeah, he's given us so much wisdom here.

25:51

And I hope that everyone will connect with you

25:53

and learn more. Pick up your books. Thank you.

25:56

And we have links to all of that

25:58

in the show notes. Great. So

26:00

for everyone listening, you

26:02

can go to parentingadhdandautism.com

26:05

slash 253 for episode 253. And

26:11

I really hope that you will

26:13

sign up for the emails. I get whenever, I

26:15

think it's Friday from you. Typically Fridays.

26:17

And they're always useful. I love

26:19

them. Really honest,

26:23

simple insights. Thank you. That's how

26:25

I feel. And I really enjoy

26:27

it. And I have for years. And I hope

26:29

everybody will do that. Well, thank you. We appreciate your

26:32

having me on. We could have continued

26:34

for hours just kicking this around, you know? Just

26:37

about every podcast interview

26:39

I do. Oh, I thought it was just me. We

26:41

could talk all day. It's

26:43

because we're so passionate about what we

26:45

do, right? And about kids and

26:48

helping kids. And it's complex. There's a

26:50

lot to talk about. But yeah, that's

26:52

correct. Yeah. It's so fun to meet

26:54

like-minded people and doing similar work. And

26:56

it's so great to be a helper

26:58

in the world. Thanks, Penny. Really appreciate

27:00

it. I appreciate that my dog did

27:03

not bark only once. And that's how

27:05

she listened well. Yes. Yours

27:07

too. Love that. Mine too. Yes.

27:11

They were good. Well, I appreciate you. And

27:13

with that, well, in the episode, I'll see

27:15

everybody on the next show. Thanks

27:18

for joining me on the Beautifully Complex

27:20

podcast. If you enjoyed this

27:22

episode, please subscribe and share. And

27:25

don't forget to check out my online courses and

27:28

parent coaching at

27:30

parentingadhdandautism.com and

27:32

at thebehaviorrevolution.com.