0:00

Well. Come up Magana Armchair Expert. Experts

0:02

on expert. I'm Dan Shepherd and I'm joined

0:04

by a miniature must. This is the weirdest

0:07

intro we've ever done in six and a

0:09

half years. We've never sit side by side

0:11

in an intro. That's true,

0:14

Yeah, your cross for. Me I don't

0:16

care for either Sang or you don't

0:18

trust. Law is a ding ding dong.

0:20

he cannot. Help but side i me

0:22

during. Yeah, you think I'm like angry

0:25

or sad eyes are tricky, do you

0:27

think side eyes mean mean girl, do

0:29

you think it means I'm in a

0:31

fight? Plug Plotting Plotting Yeah,

0:33

I think plotting. Okay,

0:36

This is among the most interesting

0:38

interviews we've ever done. Rare. I

0:40

didn't ever think my wife I

0:42

would meet someone that was open

0:45

about been diagnosed as a sociopath

0:47

and then add onto that. They

0:49

also have a Phd in research

0:51

psychology and so I guess today

0:53

Patrick Gagged Me is a psychologist

0:55

and a Diagnosis Your path and

0:58

she has a book out that

1:00

is so interesting called Sociopath a

1:02

Memoir. She's written in the New

1:04

York Times and she's incredibly interesting.

1:06

What a privilege to get to

1:08

talk to someone in that position.

1:11

Yes, just truly truly fascinating. I

1:13

think you will love it as

1:15

well. So please enjoy! Patrick gagged

1:17

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Sassy. Oh. I'm

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from. The South Hydrant so have any length of.

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About something and my oh. My God

3:21

Best of Classic Cars is a

3:23

very nice presents. What is your

3:26

say? History of Wine Ah my

3:28

goddess. Some makes me think you've

3:30

heard the shower. You have really

3:33

good research People around you is

3:35

a little bit a pulse of

3:37

i. I've listened to a couple.

3:39

I'm not a podcast for some, but what

3:41

I found when all is the request started

3:44

coming in was my friends were sent a

3:46

you should listen, listen, Listen, I was and

3:48

I thought you know I'm actually not going

3:50

to. I want to come in without a

3:52

lot of now and I don't want to

3:54

have any preconceived ideas of what's going on.

3:56

Totally that I've heard. enough said. I know

3:59

what, you guys. Or into. Where do

4:01

you have Curly? I live? In Florida? Zulu?

4:03

Well I lived here for ever and

4:05

we were fortunate in that my husband's

4:07

he works in taxes, he was able

4:09

to work remotely and we were in

4:11

this house in Westwood that I loves.

4:13

but we were expanding our families, we

4:16

already knew we wanted to go. My

4:18

dad lives in what is essentially a

4:20

rich community. Already bought a house two

4:22

doors down from his thinking was a

4:24

Sabet. And we got him squared away.

4:26

We put everything in boxes I think we

4:28

were scheduled to leave the following week. And

4:30

then the lockdowns. This depend. On my own. So

4:33

we're Not only do we live in Florida, but we. Live

4:35

in a retirement community in one. That

4:38

allows smoking. This is a fallacy

4:40

of mine. Base and I'll

4:43

tell you entirely, War or two experiences. One

4:45

was I went with my friend forever and

4:47

says Gray to go see his grandparents in

4:49

Arizona from Detroit and they had a golf

4:51

cart. We were allowed to drive the golf

4:54

cart around the shuffleboard and I remember thinking

4:56

this is it is by going to say

4:58

something and then I'm going to contradict myself

5:00

immediately when I'm first gonna say this is

5:03

gonna be one of the most unique opportunities

5:05

of my life as an interviewer in that

5:07

I've never, ever interviewed someone who identifies is

5:09

a sociopath and has been diagnosed as such.

5:12

I that his hands out how to

5:14

contradict myself was learning about it from

5:16

your book and I am series where

5:18

this number comes from both in the

5:20

book is as five percent of Americans

5:22

are sociopathic, so at the same time

5:24

I'm acknowledging certainly within eight hundred people

5:26

of those are the numbers I've interviewed

5:28

forty of them and maybe it over

5:30

indexes. Even in the fields I've talked

5:32

to be by have no idea. I

5:34

think Order was a gloved a find

5:36

out where that number comes from. but

5:38

be I want you to explain it

5:40

to us so we don't enter. In see

5:42

your personal story hanging onto a lot of

5:44

stereotypes a thing probably I walk in with

5:46

and people walking myself first inform us where

5:49

we think that number comes from. It's

5:51

a go to number for research. I think

5:53

the last place I saw it actually referenced

5:55

was the Cleveland Clinic and here's what you

5:57

need to understand about that number: Psychopathy and.

6:00

The apathy tend to be conflated.

6:02

The psychology field has a habit

6:04

of changing. The name of a disorder

6:06

wants becomes to stigmatize I am and which

6:08

is understandable as a wacko more. Racist,

6:11

but that really becomes tricky. When

6:13

you're dealing with research, And especially with

6:15

says the apathy. because they have

6:17

more recently again bit as a

6:19

stigma decided to reclassify sociopath the

6:22

as secondary psychopathy. Oh god that

6:24

sounds way we're. Didn't have a phrase

6:26

oregon where social cues. The same with

6:28

Antisocial Personality Disorder. A lot of

6:30

the claims are sociopaths. He was

6:33

replaced by Antisocial Personality Disorder. What

6:35

they're not telling you as you

6:37

can not diagnosed says the apathy.

6:39

Using the criteria for Anti Social

6:41

Personality Disorder, the criteria for Antisocial

6:43

Personality Disorder is separate from the

6:45

criteria for says the opposite. Just

6:48

like you cannot tag know someone

6:50

who's antisocial using criteria set forth

6:52

with sociopath The So: although they

6:54

are very similar, they're not the

6:56

same and. I can speak to

6:58

that from experience in that when you're

7:01

looking at someone with antisocial personality disorder,

7:03

it's gonna be as someone who has

7:05

no impulse control and tends to make

7:07

the same mistakes over and over again

7:10

without the ability to evolve. They're gonna

7:12

have that juvenile record that's a mile

7:14

long. They're going to have a difficult

7:16

time keeping a job staying in school.

7:19

They're going to have an adult criminal

7:21

record inside one of the criteria for

7:23

antisocial personality disorder. In order to give

7:26

someone that diagnosis there needs. To be

7:28

evidence of conduct disorder, which is something

7:30

that you assign mostly to children, the

7:32

kids that are acting out but acting

7:34

out in a way that's particularly problematic

7:36

and all Yes or just excessive expulsions.

7:39

They'll take that into account because they

7:41

understand some people going to take pity

7:43

on a kid and nights and them

7:45

to do the just to spare them

7:47

that Sigma. So they're looking for evidence

7:49

like that. So, vandalism, violence within the

7:51

classroom, exposing suspensions, etc. I have any

7:54

that. Violence in The classroom. But not

7:56

reported and you need as he didn't

7:58

have other in order to have. Diagnosis

8:00

Gotcha and that's kind of what sparked

8:02

my interest When I start asking, who

8:04

says that all sociopath act this way

8:06

They don't. Really? Bother me me see

8:09

so many parallels about so many different

8:11

things and really us. Most of what

8:13

are we really focusing on when we

8:15

label these things? Because as I read

8:17

your story, weirdly the outcome of your

8:19

behavior and my behavior as an addict,

8:21

some of it's identical. We're not even

8:23

measuring you and I by the outcome

8:25

of our behavior, but we're really trying

8:27

to figure out why we behave that

8:30

way, which is fascinating and even some

8:32

of the outcome of your behavior would

8:34

also mirrors some of the things and

8:36

other neuro divergent things. Like autism? Like.

8:38

Maybe this lack of been able to

8:40

see emotions on other people in this

8:43

empty sources big still have overlapping outcomes.

8:45

But hopefully we're trying to track down

8:47

the causality. Have all these things? And

8:50

that's why conversations like this is so

8:52

important. Because I'm so glad you said

8:54

that cause. I. Would like

8:56

to say that, but see perception a

8:58

sissy apathy as it stands today. I

9:01

would never want to say the settled

9:03

assists. The apathy is similar to the

9:05

struggled with addiction. Peter's numbers of that

9:07

community are gonna push back rightly so

9:10

because they don't understand the nuance of

9:12

the disorder. And that so t here

9:14

is so many of the destructive behaviors

9:16

I committed. The motivation for it was

9:19

not malice. It was not intend to

9:21

harm. It lessens callous disregard. For either

9:23

is I'm know it was discomfort alleviate

9:26

a guy of behavior. At the time

9:28

I couldn't explain why. Certainly when I was

9:30

a child all I knew was I felt

9:32

this compulsive do it, Do it, Do it,

9:34

Do it And then I would do it

9:36

and it would go away. I didn't question

9:38

as I just knew this bad behavior makes

9:40

the pressure go away and the weight it

9:42

continued to give myself these prescriptions. I'm just

9:44

gonna have to slide under the radar as

9:47

I don't wanna be bothered. I see what

9:49

that does. There was another kid in my

9:51

class. I remember he threw a desk through

9:53

a window. Me as a red

9:55

flag obvious lot. Of

9:58

though I just. And

10:01

I. Just remember thinking I won't

10:03

be doing that because every adult

10:05

descended on the classroom rightfully so

10:07

that I just remembered. Yeah, I

10:09

can't do that. Right where you have

10:11

to come in a little saucer the

10:13

I approached and also say selfishly. There.

10:16

Is a laziness and me that his bombs

10:18

as we get more compassion for every one

10:20

as we should. That is the cold or

10:22

kind of running out of like sociopath. We

10:24

all agreed like yeah we can definitely just

10:27

say like a leper since a sociopath you

10:29

know they're bad or evil and then I

10:31

hear your story am know this is another

10:33

thing you're fucking born with the you have

10:35

to wrestle with and my god now I

10:37

see him at least in good conscious and

10:40

I'm like a lot of what is left.

10:42

I guess we'll have monster is is kind

10:44

of success as bad evil hitler person. And

10:46

then everything else. We're gonna have to be a little

10:48

more interesting than the other way around. Us.

10:50

Here's the thing, that reputation as

10:52

evil is earned. There is a

10:55

small percentage of the sociopathic personalities

10:57

who does commit these atrocious crimes

10:59

you know, like the Ted Bundy

11:01

example. Although I'd personally don't have

11:03

anything, Ted Bundy was sociopath, but

11:05

it's that generalize Allah. But make

11:07

no mistake, so see up as

11:09

he is a perilous mental disorder.

11:11

The traits associated aren't great, so

11:13

I don't want this to be

11:15

as we see. Item on your morrow.

11:17

It or not that was, I'm in

11:19

our yard. Sociopaths woke up one hundred

11:21

percent. Are you food? Just like

11:24

any disorder says, the Alpha See

11:26

appears to exist on the spectrum

11:28

that speaks to the individual's ability

11:30

to get the help that they

11:32

need. The destructive behavior that I

11:35

began doing early as I can

11:37

remember, that was an unconscious coping

11:39

mechanism that ultimately developed into a

11:41

lifestyle that I was subsequently able

11:43

to address. Because I'm a white

11:45

woman of privilege, I had access

11:48

to education. I had access to.

11:50

Better. Our yeah diagnosed

11:52

yes. Everything. So many people don't

11:54

have that. That's what I would. You buy your book, your

11:57

book isn't a call for American. Open up their arms and offer

11:59

free drinks or so. As it's actually to

12:01

help Sociopath? Yeah like I hope you're

12:03

reading this book in your identifying with

12:05

an interviewer identifying with it. I'm in

12:08

a rod, some tools and how I

12:10

have come to live a life that

12:12

is free. Yeah, okay so really quick.

12:14

Is there anything structurally we can observe

12:17

and and fmr I that would show

12:19

us the sociopath a brain is ernie

12:21

mechanistic things associated with it. I have

12:23

been told as there isn't as read

12:25

some research studies on that it hasn't

12:27

been reviewed and not for me to

12:29

say yes. This is the thing that

12:31

you should do and this is race

12:33

of go in. This is how you

12:35

can see the difference between someone who

12:38

has set out at he says the

12:40

apathy vs neuro typical but they do

12:42

exist. I've read the studies on how

12:44

they are attempting to advance different testing

12:46

was that involved brain scans and an

12:48

actual look into how the different parts

12:50

of the brain are affected by says

12:52

the apathy and. Psychopathy. Psychopathy is

12:54

believed to be the result

12:56

of brain abnormalities that make

12:58

it impossible for someone to

13:00

move through complex emotional development.

13:02

While these people. Are born

13:05

with the so called inherent

13:07

emotions: Joy. Sadness Surprise

13:09

discussed. They are not able

13:11

to progress through the social

13:13

emotions. Those are emphases loves

13:15

things that you teach children

13:18

as they develop. These are

13:20

psychopaths. Psychopaths. And there is

13:22

not a general consensus on what

13:25

those abnormalities are. Some believe it's

13:27

an issue within The and Magdalen

13:30

that processes emotional reaction to memories,

13:32

and others believe this cycle path

13:34

has the inability to process oxytocin

13:37

own. The Love Chemical for. Act and

13:39

trust building, but there isn't that consensus

13:41

and that is something that I'm really

13:44

hoping they'll receive more attention and Finance

13:46

has to. And yeah, for research, Sociopath,

13:48

however, don't appear to suffer from those

13:50

biological impediments. So while they can learn

13:53

the social emotions stages, learn them differently.

13:55

In the book, I describe it as

13:57

an emotional learning disability because that's what

13:59

it felt like. I remember seeing my

14:02

sister internalize my mother would come and

14:04

say, well, we don't want to do

14:06

that because that's bad and you don't

14:08

want your teachers to get upset And

14:11

I remember my sister oh no, that

14:13

sounds. Awful to hurt us out of the

14:15

mean ups upset. At her or her letting someone

14:17

down and I just remember being like i don't

14:19

care, I don't want to go out and. Harm

14:22

these teachers but care. And

14:25

I said. Also, on the

14:27

understanding very quickly that that response

14:29

is not met favorably. Where you're

14:31

smart enough to pick up social cues loses

14:33

a side note. and it's not psychopathy your

14:36

since the opposite you. But he did a

14:38

retrospect on the original Rain Man who the

14:40

movie was based on. Savant Centre right? Yes,

14:42

in this guy who lives in Utah and

14:45

they had an interview from him like twenty

14:47

five years earlier in the May when revisited

14:49

him and he kinda hangs in the Salt

14:51

Lake City Library. He's read every single book

14:54

in there and Lesley Stahl sits with them

14:56

and of this go around with him. He's

14:58

like hi Leslie and he seems to have

15:00

developed. All these kind of things that he

15:03

didn't have twenty years prior and ceases to

15:05

the dad. It seems like he's really kind

15:07

of ground and he said don't confuse that,

15:09

he's is very smart. He's learned that if

15:12

he smiles you smile better. He has picked

15:14

up over time to practice a set of

15:16

skills, but his brain hasn't changed. He is

15:18

not processing your facial expressions the way enough.

15:20

That was an example of someone just picking

15:23

up the skill set and. It's. A great

15:25

example because so many people like to

15:27

talk about the sociopath mass gray in

15:29

I'll let you can't trust a sociopath

15:31

mass. They always have masks on and

15:33

to a large accent. That's very true,

15:36

but my sociopathic mask isn't much different

15:38

than the mask that most people get.

15:40

don't we all did? I guess. Everything's

15:42

a fucking spectrum. And everyone has that

15:44

front facing personality that they put on

15:46

just to exist in the world make

15:48

life easy to lubricant. The difference is

15:51

a sociopath mask is always seen as

15:53

something the serious when in reality it's

15:55

just a necessity. I understand that if

15:57

I come in here and I have

15:59

a slow. In fact, And

16:01

I start asking blinds invasive questions. You're

16:03

not gonna love it. or maybe you

16:06

were. On drawn and. You

16:08

had a nice tournaments New York Times interview was

16:10

like now are fucking getting somewhere You said that

16:13

since he said I would like to see the

16:15

interviewer arm of as a man a man, I

16:17

kind of want to see that. He said that

16:19

yeah, like let it rip to miles basically. Well,

16:21

he. Asked me if I

16:24

saw that being an

16:26

interviewer was. Manipulative. I.

16:28

Said i don't know that he wanted me to

16:30

ask them questions about it and it was a

16:32

very fine turn of events. He was as you

16:34

said because otherwise i'm quiet i ask invasive

16:36

question their i am day or my effect

16:38

is low and then he invited you and

16:40

you basically just said why do you interview

16:43

people have you feel like you are manipulative

16:45

for your job and then there are some

16:47

defensiveness you call that are no brahms younger

16:49

students kid and like I was really fun

16:51

as i am a really fun when he

16:53

was of like a one so of not

16:55

for that at some point but i guess

16:58

what sort of union so you at least

17:00

in the bus and seven years old you

17:02

are basically to. Emotions you of anger

17:04

and happiness and. They. Inherit emotions, which

17:06

I learned later. There are more and

17:08

I'm a mess because I should be

17:10

able to just list them out by

17:12

now, but I can. I always forget,

17:14

but it's happiness, sadness, discussed, surprise, and

17:17

there's three or four more that are

17:19

inherent emotions from the jump. Everyone has

17:21

these emotions, including psychopaths, The ones you

17:23

can remember feeling the most would be

17:25

anger and happiness and then the rest

17:28

of the time your feelings is very

17:30

very last. Threats Are you disassociated at.

17:32

All I don't feel disassociated because

17:34

I'm very presence. I just feel

17:36

that then I would as described

17:38

it as nothingness. Now I would

17:40

describe it as tranquil. Content language

17:42

are aspiring to do as

17:44

meditate. Since his arrest. For me

17:47

team from other people's expectations of me

17:49

to emote the way they were emoting

17:51

and distress wasn't a lie need to

17:53

make these people happy it was. If

17:55

I don't do with they are expecting

17:57

of me I'm going to be out.

18:00

It and then life as I know it will cease

18:02

to exist. I won't be able to get in, do,

18:04

and have the things that I want because someone's always

18:06

going to be keeping an eye on. Me: yeah

18:08

you're otherness would exclude you from and around

18:10

of life. I. Assume it's a

18:12

spectrum of intensity, right? I

18:14

guess some people would have

18:16

a very flat reaction to

18:18

a murder. Potentially.

18:20

In front of them is it as fact? I'm

18:23

like that. I think the spectrum is more in

18:25

how difficult it is to learn the social emotions

18:27

of socialization is that every parent does for their

18:29

kid. Typical socialization techniques didn't work for me, it

18:32

just didn't make any sense. He didn't land. Will

18:34

you want to do this Because so and so

18:36

will get her feelings hurt. If you don't go

18:38

to a party it's like of haven't I don't

18:41

want to go to the said why would she

18:43

Couldn't say like sure that the boundaries to be

18:45

inherent boundaries or something. There are so many overlapping

18:47

themes see your point that yeah it does sound

18:50

like boundaries. But to me was

18:52

I couldn't understand propriety like we

18:54

should do this. And the shame?

18:56

I didn't have any shame about

18:59

anything. Or deal, right? So I

19:01

think the spectrum taps into how difficult

19:03

it is for someone to eventually learn

19:05

those social emotions. And it is possible.

19:07

for someone with says the apathy, they

19:10

just learned them differently. Any new system?

19:12

Yes, ultimately Gamescom be one of

19:14

my sources of the coin buddies

19:16

sociopathic as his addiction like a

19:18

delighted to have a reporter like

19:20

about myself is also related to

19:22

that. Me wrap up with that

19:24

one. but in practice the thing

19:26

that interest me at the beginning

19:28

of your story is this bucolic

19:30

pressure or uses an addict I

19:32

would call it discomfort sir. and

19:34

you started discovering young you would

19:36

steal things that would relieve this

19:38

discomfort or this pressure. You stabbed

19:40

the classmates. Had with a pencil. I

19:42

think that's a good soy says interesting

19:45

one. Yeah, I'm serious about our own.

19:47

hear about that suppressor. Had been buildings and

19:49

discomfort is a good word for it as in

19:51

pressure is what I. Serve latched onto as

19:53

a kid I need to regulate. We agree

19:56

on mattress. That neuro typical regulation

19:58

techniques did not. Why I

20:00

couldn't make myself feel better. The way that

20:02

other people made themselves feel better. I just

20:04

remember being a kid sitting behind a little

20:07

girl in school and I looked up and

20:09

she had breast in her hair and I

20:11

felt this: Take that right, you're going to

20:13

feel better. It didn't make any sense and

20:15

yet I knew it was accurate. I just

20:18

started there to serve know him but yes that's

20:20

the first time you feel the release. And

20:22

little transgressions like that usually did

20:24

the track. but on this day

20:26

when I assaulted this child. I

20:29

had been doing a lot of little transgressions and

20:31

they weren't working and I conceal it as a

20:33

kid you're like was in have was gonna have

20:35

what's gonna happen with going to happen but as

20:37

a kid I had a hard time talking myself

20:39

through it In there is little girl standing next

20:41

to me and she had just been getting on

20:43

my nerves as a this madness and I bent

20:45

down and she kicked my backpack and when she

20:47

did she knocked out my pencil box. It was

20:49

full of pencils and then I just remember picking

20:51

up a pencil and stabbing her in the head

20:53

with it away. And I

20:55

remember what was problematic other than

20:58

the obvious was it wasn't just

21:00

the pressure that disappeared, it was

21:02

replaced by this you. For you?

21:04

I mean, yeah. And

21:07

I knew enough to know that

21:09

he raises. Concern Us version or on.

21:11

Had this damn yeah Riyadh, you're quick

21:13

Lahem. So you didn't know that does.

21:16

So that's interesting. You knew this isn't

21:18

good that I like it. I always

21:20

knew right from wrong cognitive. it wasn't

21:22

internal. That's the difference. Versus the heart

21:24

of one of the erroneous stereotypes is

21:26

also zebras not know the difference when

21:28

right? Oh yes, they do files or

21:31

use your sociopath track. Highly empathetic actually

21:33

if you go by the poll bloom

21:35

definition black suit or quite good at

21:37

knowing what you are thinking and meaning

21:39

to hear from them because. They spent

21:41

a lifetime. We're I heard our yeah

21:44

yeah, some of horses Apparent your parents I

21:46

cannot help but think but what Mom's going

21:48

to see, you're in a good situation at

21:50

the beginning of this data. As a successful

21:52

music executive, you guys live in a nice

21:55

place in San Francisco in there's tools at

21:57

your disposal. I presume mom have to have

21:59

banned. The to observe you and

22:01

sees slowly detect seen some things.

22:03

she finds the box of stolen

22:05

shit. Out iss

22:08

you have love for your mother

22:10

clearly in the book. Are you

22:12

aware of her concern and panicked

22:14

about your behavior? and what is

22:16

that duty? You are you detecting

22:18

like this woman. I love my

22:20

main resource and life. I'm dependent

22:22

on them. They're. Scared for

22:24

me? should I be? But you don't

22:26

have fear really now. So thanks. To

22:28

the way I internalized, that is, I

22:31

really relied on my mother to be

22:33

my moral compass because I understood I

22:35

didn't have one. I didn't always understand

22:37

social cues, so I really relied on

22:40

her to sort of salt me, navigate

22:42

the more nuanced parts of social and

22:44

license. And I didn't understand. Like behavior

22:46

aside, and I remember thinking is my

22:49

mom turns on me and by turns

22:51

I Me, I mean. Exclude you.

22:53

Are. Lousy. She would never have done that.

22:55

But if she starts to give me

22:57

the luck, if she starts to perceive

22:59

me as a oh than I'm not

23:01

going to be able to rely on

23:03

her as my moral compass anymore. It

23:05

was sell sexually motivated it was. I

23:07

need to do what I needed. To

23:10

pacify her. Because. If I

23:12

don't I'm not going to be able

23:14

to rely on her as a compass.

23:16

I would watch your reactions to things

23:18

and be like, okay, so that's what

23:20

you do when your present said with

23:22

misinformation. Check it out that that's how

23:24

you want to respond if somebody says

23:26

as I really turned to her and

23:29

my sister for these different masks to

23:31

were so that I would be presenting

23:33

appropriately. And we were living in a

23:35

time when mental health listen a thing

23:37

we hardly had. words are tools for

23:39

anxiety and depression or addicts. Much. Less

23:41

o' sea Alpha see So my mom did the

23:43

best she could but she didn't. Know

23:45

what she was dealing with. I would

23:48

imagine she's watching you to things you go to

23:50

a birthday party when you're little kid and all

23:52

the girls falsely not a birthday party sleep over

23:54

sorry as a it was a birthday party said

23:56

Mrs. okay my hybrid Ss and all the girls

23:59

go to sleep. Then you're like okay, well I'm

24:01

born. I'd like to explore the house and I

24:03

are exploring their house and then you decide, fuck

24:05

I do want to be at home. My mom

24:07

said I could come home if I want. So

24:09

you just leave in first grade and you walk

24:11

through San Francisco and anyone sounds garage New York

24:13

in their car and by the time you arrived

24:15

some mom. this has gotta be a moment for

24:17

her. Where she goes of say there was some

24:19

stealing. There's this, I see. she's not really bonding

24:21

with the other kids whose primary just afraid you're

24:23

going to be lonely. but now I think this

24:25

is a moment work shifts gears was yes, actually

24:28

be pretty concerned about your safety because you don't

24:30

seem. To have the fears that a

24:32

normal kid would have that would keep

24:34

them from Rome in San Francisco in

24:36

the middle ear as and when she

24:38

gets the scared is unfortunately. For her

24:40

See wasn't taking my behavior as a

24:42

sign that something was wrong with me.

24:45

suis internalizing at that there is something

24:47

wrong with her. Of course that See

24:49

had somehow done something wrong did she

24:51

was to blame Cel sea Salt All

24:54

that shame and guilt. What am I

24:56

doing that is causing this child to

24:58

do that ensues still most you know

25:00

about it said again. I remember being.

25:03

Very. Okay, I.

25:06

Knew that wasn't the right thing to

25:08

do, but I wasn't expecting it to

25:10

result in this level of. Emotional

25:12

reaction of predicted that. I

25:14

think a normal kid would have and I'm using that term.

25:16

Really, I said. well. It didn't even

25:18

register that this would be a problem. Now

25:21

here's the fantasy liberating part of your

25:23

condition which I found intriguing as you

25:25

go out with the first time you've

25:27

been on the middle. When I in

25:29

San Francisco annually this is awesome. Why

25:31

are people out all the time? It's

25:33

like totally different vibe. garage doors are

25:35

open and explore some aspects of am

25:37

envious of our never raided saw the

25:39

Office. Were lying around

25:42

I am I am kind of make any relatives

25:44

a mile economic. What is is like of there

25:46

is is dismissed us like I'm a complete opposite

25:48

ends of the house. Stare and I just

25:50

remembered that lock and subsequent lox

25:52

like it. Ceiling like this is

25:54

a spot as at all the

25:56

pressure is operate as I think

25:58

that was because. When I was

26:01

alone I could stop and ask. It was

26:03

late at night, no one was gonna ask

26:05

me what I was doing it. If they

26:07

did I would have spot a story and

26:09

taken off. I could just be myself and

26:11

I think that's what I was resonating with

26:14

in that walk. I loved the idea of

26:16

all these people in their houses and all

26:18

of the garage doors open. So it was

26:20

these glimpses into lives that I can just

26:22

walk up and look at like I was

26:25

in a gallery. For you hit pause

26:27

on mankind exactly right. You are optional.

26:29

want do that as a friend? yeah

26:31

all yeah cause munoz snoop around people's

26:33

purses and trying to figure out like

26:36

the aspect of what is going on

26:38

for want to avoid inadvertently project been

26:40

are linking what you're saying into something

26:42

that's really not transferable. but I guess

26:44

my curiosity is your intelligence. You're aware

26:47

murders happen young dear, aware that the

26:49

world's dangerous or not now or then

26:51

then I'm trying to figure out if

26:53

it's you know the world's dangerous. But.

26:56

He just give a fuck or

26:58

that your immediate thing as so

27:00

compelling that that discuss silence. There's

27:02

something to be said with. Carbon.

27:05

Of knowledge and emotional. Knowledge

27:07

Time Young. And. I think that's what

27:09

was going on cognitively that I understand

27:11

that this was maybe not the safest

27:13

choice. Smartest choice, sure, but if it

27:16

doesn't hit you emotionally as we. Thought

27:18

oh man, what has a lawyer for second from a

27:20

friend. We all know the things we shouldn't be doing

27:22

about when you know the guy, Or girl is wrong

27:24

for you. But it's the emotion that causes

27:26

you to move forward in this relationship, even

27:28

though your brain has to. It's the same

27:31

thing when there's no emotional connection. Or when

27:33

you sit on eg. features like

27:35

the brain knows you're gonna regret

27:37

this for your like l so

27:39

Muslim beneath the same value is

27:41

fully. Emotional, You're right, You can know

27:43

like I should be scared but that

27:45

doesn't do any say as that's nothing,

27:47

it's just what's in your body that's

27:49

causing you to stop or raw. And

27:52

and as concepts are important they help

27:54

keep the collect as you say something.

27:56

does chefs when. You are moving through

27:58

the world without fear. You tend

28:00

to attract less danger and of

28:03

course this is. Your account for

28:05

science major. My father used to say

28:07

to me, kid, you can get anywhere in

28:09

life with a confident stride and a walkie

28:11

talkie. And I never thought I'd

28:13

be happy if. You're. Not consumed with those

28:15

things. If you're not moving through the world are

28:17

really hold up on C. Or yeah, chances are

28:20

I can just walk up and get what I

28:22

need and walk. Out more Fine Yeah yeah, you

28:24

don't smell like a victim last year to detect

28:26

on you. I don't know I'm thinking of this,

28:28

but did you see Men in Black on my

28:31

favorite movies? Will Smith Passes that has. Remember all

28:33

the guys are shooting at the Missouri City. Like

28:35

know that there's is doing pushups. I want one

28:37

uncommon in the gym and kilometer with a girl.

28:40

See seven as memory and quantum physics andre across

28:42

as a big the big events and yes, okay

28:44

so at eleven I think would be the next

28:46

Fast forward. Tell me about Florida and to or

28:48

the prison and you actually get an idea what

28:51

you may be have that the first time. I

28:53

think it was the first time that really

28:55

was presented to me. I can't believe that

28:57

I hadn't come across that word at some

29:00

points, but I don't think that it was

29:02

presented to me definitively in. this is something

29:04

to I think with my personality type. I've

29:06

told the story the people dozens of times

29:08

over the years as every time I do

29:10

it wouldn't let us her prison in the

29:13

middle of night and it took a for

29:15

me to remember to say i need says

29:17

professor that I know this isn't normal but

29:19

my uncle work there he was a graveyard

29:21

shifts. Correctional Officer. And

29:24

I and always had a fixation

29:26

with Alcatraz and I think this

29:28

criminal behavior which is almost certainly

29:30

and unconscious trying to figure things

29:33

out for myself so see invited

29:35

us to this present. He didn't

29:37

do it after hours and just

29:39

remember walking through and seeing all

29:41

of these men and. Hearing

29:43

another guard say all these people are

29:46

sociopath. What's that? is? Someone who doesn't

29:48

learn from their mistakes, doesn't feel badly

29:50

about what they did, does the same

29:53

stuff over. And over again and said

29:55

if I left my wallet on the table

29:57

right here and walked out. He was i would you

29:59

go through it and. I'm like okay I guess

30:01

you are like know right? you wouldn't cause you're

30:03

not a sociopath. I did. Yes! Was you

30:06

feel bad guys? He'll tiger. What? Is so

30:08

that it would see something like that. we have like

30:10

know I'm so mad. When they won't cover a

30:12

concrete yes, okay, know your story is you

30:14

got invited, but as I series, it's hard

30:16

for me. Not so. Imagine that your mother

30:18

didn't orchestrate the South. I'm not kidding. it's

30:20

if it's he had some fear that you

30:22

might end up in jail and that you

30:24

needed to be scared straight off because you

30:26

think you're a good lie detector. Says she

30:28

would pass a lie detector. If you

30:31

ask that question she would say absolutely

30:33

not and never saxons my decision making

30:35

for one second. So if she did

30:37

set that up, it was. Later was

30:39

good but you can see from the outside my

30:41

knowing what is going to you end up on

30:43

this very bizarre field trip. the no one gets

30:45

to take a max or asian sure is plausible

30:47

but to me it feels more like if I

30:49

were the parent of a child I was really

30:52

worried was going to end of incarcerated. I might

30:54

wanna let them see what that looks like Tina.

30:56

That is never occurred to me but

30:58

I'll leave here and ask our he

31:00

says. I remember her being as excited

31:02

about it as I was. I just

31:04

remember seeing all these man and the

31:07

guard saying that they couldn't look at

31:09

us there to keep their heads down

31:11

and we were two little girls and

31:13

women to spot and through this mail

31:15

prison. And. I just

31:18

sound that power displacement

31:20

cel. Mai

31:22

know the word may want to say. Say

31:24

the word you honest. I don't know the

31:27

word, I promise. When did you think it

31:29

was something positive? Exhilarating as exhilarating area. I

31:31

couldn't. Think of that word, but that's what it was. Regs.

31:33

you still gotta hide even though you're

31:35

often the open. I'm sure

31:37

you have a lot of muscle memory of

31:39

hiding. It's less fighting and more I saw

31:41

to mask You have an awareness right now

31:43

that you want to be truthful and not

31:45

scare everyone out of your experience. you're still

31:47

walking some tightrope right? I don't on the

31:49

you'll ever say that in life you know

31:51

enough to put it through the filter. Which

31:53

like wow when I really want to see

31:55

like that prison may be for me. yeah

31:57

they have the word months gonna be alludes.

32:00

Much of good one eight en masse. Still

32:02

have my in Cincinnati know. That every

32:04

why? I don't You think everyone's

32:06

adjusting slightly to whatever them down

32:08

of them? Maybe I'm a sociopath?

32:10

I don't. Know reading and I am

32:12

doing that on my muscles. It is

32:15

a lot of stuff I can relate

32:17

to a have some criminality my background

32:19

but I feel deeply deeply sad when

32:21

I heard some yes feelings I did

32:23

keep coming back to them with know

32:25

and I can thing and times as

32:28

week I do have that in your

32:30

book answer to for me but one

32:32

my curiosities a lot of my behavior

32:34

that seem to be sociopath or a

32:36

certainly I don't care about the consequences

32:38

my motivation was the world has been

32:41

unjust. To me I am the recipient of

32:43

violence and alcoholism and all this stuff is.

32:45

I didn't get a fair shake and people

32:47

aren't playing by the rules with me. And.

32:50

So. I'm not obligated to

32:52

play by the rules either. In in fact,

32:55

I'm gonna write the justice skills when I'm

32:57

try to conceptualize your experience. I did wonder

32:59

is any of that at play but I

33:01

don't think it is. I think as a

33:03

completely different thing again with the same outcome.

33:05

but I had a pretty bulletproof wasn't a

33:07

fair shake for me so I'll take whatever

33:09

the fuck I can get. I. Don't remember

33:11

feeling that way at all as kid. It's

33:14

tricky for me to equate it to other

33:16

mental disorders because it's as the apathy as

33:18

it stands now. people don't want to be

33:20

associated with as bad. Word Bedevilling is

33:22

a rebrand. Yeah! Maybe

33:24

not secondary. Not.

33:28

Now when I heard that I was

33:30

like a system sir we are male

33:33

and female let alone on a son.

33:36

But I thought this can pulse

33:38

and I remember one time seeing.

33:41

A. Camera. What it was that it was like. Okay, let

33:43

me that to take that because it's right

33:45

there and it's It's not really ceilings, he

33:47

just hire. Me feeling something are taking ship.

33:49

Feeling something of. That it's take it because

33:51

isn't get ahead of it. It's kind of like taking the

33:53

Xanax the for the anxiety kicks and to steal it and

33:55

then you won't even have to worry about it today. Or

33:58

if you do, you won't have to worry about it. The

34:00

later there's some of it wasn't rude

34:02

and in anger or grievance it was

34:04

more. I don't wanna do this that

34:06

the opportunity is presented itself and I

34:09

need to take every opportunity I can.

34:11

But I do remember feeling that later

34:13

in life, particularly when I was dating

34:15

my then boyfriend now hundred and and

34:18

see was. Very much trying

34:20

to keep me to play within the

34:22

lines, but I noticed he didn't play

34:24

in the lines and that's fine. We

34:26

can have an open conversation about it,

34:28

but I remember feeling if you're not

34:30

gonna play with and lines you focusing

34:32

on a plane ally Yeah yeah yeah

34:34

and I remember. Stealing.

34:36

A car and just feeling exactly

34:38

what you just described. which is.

34:41

Bunk. Years ago? Yeah, look at me.

34:43

I'm in a D, there's an American, I feel

34:45

the least that bad about it and I'm in

34:47

a go home and I gonna fall sleep next

34:49

to you and it's gonna be like. Oh

34:51

wow yeah that seems that growth so

34:54

you I get even with as you

34:56

cared and are allowed in as. It

34:58

was the unjust snus of it here.

35:00

I am working really hard to understand

35:02

myself and really hone in on my

35:04

motivations and I'm keeping track. and I'm

35:06

trying to say I had of my

35:08

prescriptions and just mother fuckers. Are you

35:10

doing anything he wants to the front

35:13

and center for? Yeah, it's like opened

35:15

stuff doesn't count because he's not a

35:17

sociopath. It it's like a desk. And

35:19

also it doesn't. Just like my wife can

35:21

drink wine there are things that are unfair for me

35:23

that are for her because I am this very specific

35:25

person so I do with activity for boys are correct.

35:28

By drinking wine isn't illegal or against

35:30

the law or morally inappropriate. There were

35:32

some things that he was doing that's

35:34

a lie. What you just told. How

35:36

come you can tell a lie? But

35:38

I can't tell a lie. For good

35:40

I argue. Maybe because if he tells one

35:43

lives like in the lead to this other,

35:45

the outcome will be different from worse. If

35:47

I fuck some stranger and my wife fucks

35:49

a stranger, those are different outcomes all then

35:51

fuck off thousand strangers in the next three

35:54

years, she won't So we do have a

35:56

different playbook that Chef. States.

36:00

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38:55

really. And I think we probably were

38:57

there at the same time. In two

38:59

thousand years, you did know we were

39:01

roaming the campus at a silly name

39:04

how to get to use the away?

39:06

With all these things happening, we. Have

39:08

is a good day and that later. So we're

39:10

at a prison and you get a sense.

39:12

Okay, I have that I know, I'm different

39:14

emeritus. That's the name of it. and the

39:16

does that send you have to explore are

39:18

not yet. Not yet. I was still

39:21

trying to figure out what I could

39:23

do to keep myself inside. When I

39:25

was younger, I started experimenting with smaller

39:27

acts of control deviance, Like as

39:29

a preventative measure as opposed to a

39:31

is too late measure. I didn't have

39:34

the awareness that that's what I was doing This

39:36

for so long I felt very tethered to my

39:38

mother as my moral compass and then to do

39:40

the things that she. Tells. Me

39:42

to do and know what. That's what's

39:45

gonna keep me in line. But as

39:47

I started to become harder to handle

39:49

and says such an emotional range, I

39:51

realize this isn't gonna work. She's really

39:54

starting to suffer based on what she

39:56

proceeds as her failures. Those arguments

39:58

are getting more and. Volatile. So I

40:00

made a decision. I can't tell my mom the

40:03

truth anymore about any say I'm going to have

40:05

to go. This allows is too painful. And

40:07

also she wasn't helps. Me up By

40:09

the way I just thought about in a way that I would think

40:11

about re with think of yes. Know the South Us

40:13

this is not working for me So I

40:15

decided to go it alone and one of

40:17

the things that I remembered thinking was i

40:20

don't have this together anymore. I can't rely

40:22

on it so I'm gonna have to sort

40:24

of create my own cather and one of

40:26

the ways I'm going to do that is

40:28

by lions Whereas before I tried to be

40:30

honest about everything because I thought I had

40:32

to in order to stay together to my

40:34

mother. Then I started learning about everything and

40:36

I remember feeling sissies and I remember thinking

40:38

everyone says the truth shall set you free

40:40

but that was never the case for. Me.

40:42

It always had the opposite effect for me.

40:45

Line was like a superpower I'd never been

40:47

able to use. It was so easy, it

40:49

was so effortless. Not I didn't steal from

40:51

you and secretly pocketing cash, but I to

40:53

lie about the destructive behaviors that I was

40:56

engaging in to keep the pressure at bay.

40:58

And then I could. Take. Care of

41:00

myself, I would cut school, I

41:02

would break into houses that were for sale

41:04

and just spend time in arms. And the

41:07

argument I kept having was none of these

41:09

things are hurting other. Words vandalizing thing.

41:11

Know I wasn't and I was very mindful

41:13

about that. I'm not in here destroying are

41:16

causing pain to anyone or anything. So who's

41:18

to say it's bad. Oh well. as bad

41:20

as you should be skipping school. Why? And

41:22

being able to lie about that was like

41:25

getting to where a big blanket and will

41:27

have to just phasing. What's weird is

41:29

it's almost the exact same relief people

41:31

feel when they finally stopped line. Which

41:34

is like oh, I don't have to hide and

41:36

yes, But again the motivation to sociopath

41:38

is always perceived as this this area

41:40

sire like i'm in a tell you

41:42

this or that so testiness as she

41:45

won't notice I was manipulating but not

41:47

to harm someone are to get something

41:49

from someone I was manipulating so that

41:51

I could. Continued to engage in these acts

41:53

of deviants without getting. Caught so that

41:55

I could take care of myself so

41:58

I would follow centers around and. Watch

42:00

them to their windows and little just calmly and

42:02

bad. I didn't take anything or vandalized. Properties

42:04

how did Saxon substances would as

42:06

a stereotypical association with those two

42:09

things as the temperance of both

42:11

are driven a lot by fear

42:13

which he non have and then

42:15

the societal pressure to not be

42:17

a slot or whatever. The thing

42:19

as did you find that you

42:21

were more experimental. Because.

42:24

You didn't have any of those regulators on you.

42:26

Yes, And now I remember having

42:28

an early sexual experience that

42:30

by any euro technical definition

42:32

is perfect person who cared

42:35

about me as as a

42:37

person who cared about the

42:39

experience for me and I

42:41

remember the physical element been

42:43

great but there was no

42:45

emotional connection and I remember

42:48

feeling more displaced in that

42:50

moment than I ever had.

42:52

that was oh is this

42:54

is what is expected. Of

42:56

me, I'm clearly broken in some

42:58

way. I don't have this emotional

43:00

connection that everybody talks about. And

43:03

it was very clearly expected of me.

43:05

How his back to the drawing? Board where

43:07

it. I had to make a choice. Do I

43:09

lie and say I sell, it's all of it

43:12

Or do I never see this person again And

43:14

I chose. The latter both over there is

43:16

a kind of societal construct. a revolver, that

43:18

whole thing very much on one level. We're

43:20

just an animal here to reproduce like all

43:23

others but was built on at is so

43:25

damn. Us. and so problematic

43:27

and complicated. especially for women. So

43:29

this guy that you had sex

43:32

with in the quote perfect scenario

43:34

He said he cared about you,

43:36

Did you care about him? I

43:38

did that. And

43:41

what does that even really mean? I guess. We're using

43:43

the book. Know butterflies, No feelings

43:45

of romantic miss. None of those

43:47

things you seen a movie. It.

43:50

Was very cognitive. This is

43:52

a good person, a kind

43:54

person. He it seems to.

43:57

Love. Me a lot I did not have

43:59

those. Feelings of Love By I remember

44:01

telling him I loved him back because

44:04

at the time I thought this is

44:06

all I have. So maybe I love

44:08

you but my love. does it match

44:11

your love? But does that mean that

44:13

doesn't count? I didn't really have the

44:15

tools to navigate. that was it. Just

44:17

as callous disregard. I don't care about

44:20

this for says it all know but.

44:22

I. Did not have those

44:24

feelings of. Love.

44:27

And when I had my

44:29

oldest and I didn't have

44:31

those overwhelming feelings of love,

44:33

I think unconsciously, a lot

44:35

of us are sort of

44:37

waiting to have that moment.

44:39

That. Everyone else has. whether it's a wedding

44:41

or a baby being born or a

44:43

graduation. His big life moments where everyone

44:46

else is excited. Even though I know

44:48

it's not going to happen, some part

44:50

of me has always held out hope.

44:52

That I don't be the tallest. Will be the Time.

44:54

So when that wasn't the time sexually

44:56

I remember thinking oh, I'm just bucks

44:58

literally as soon as I have an

45:01

assist and I just figured. How

45:03

am I going to have a relationship with anybody

45:05

I didn't know how. Capable certainly does not come

45:07

naturally. To me you have to get annoyed

45:10

much easier with a romantic partner because these

45:12

when a lot of time was humans, they're

45:14

annoying. And if you don't have that story

45:16

brooklyn me and pick fantasy in your head

45:19

of a jazz deployment, I don't know how

45:21

you overlooked to see. General annoying

45:23

this of other people. As a

45:25

sociopath, I am just as interested in

45:27

non sociopath as nonsense if have seemed

45:29

to be with me and that was

45:31

something. That. I really discovered when

45:34

I started to get my doctorate that was

45:36

selfishly motivated. I wanted to find out more

45:38

about my personality type and others like me.

45:40

I didn't to his said about anything else

45:43

and yet one sister and learning about all

45:45

as the other personality types I became very

45:47

interested and I think that this is something

45:49

I always felt and it's why I used

45:52

to love to go out at night and

45:54

just slip through people's windows and watch their

45:56

lives playing out. To me it was like

45:58

a movie I am. No interested

46:00

in all the color that you

46:03

the collective you experience in your

46:05

emotional world's I don't know that

46:07

I want it for myself, but

46:09

I'm fascinated there and so do

46:11

I find other people annoying. Certainly

46:13

people are annoying, but I am

46:15

more interested. I signs and I

46:18

am annoyed. right? So the incentive

46:20

structures Silvers is your fascination with them

46:22

that keeps you tolerant because you're interested

46:24

in how to stick around and check

46:27

it out or you must be incredible

46:29

student that you than the usually on

46:31

a high school now terrible as you

46:34

go to community college good as some

46:36

see. I went to a school

46:38

in Florida and then I transferred. Over

46:40

and I was a transfer as well. As

46:43

his share of he see go

46:45

to you ceiling in it's there

46:47

that we start understanding exploring. You

46:49

know how a therapist. Okay, so I

46:51

just want to touch on one quicksand yeah, I

46:53

was a terrible student because it didn't ever occurred

46:55

to me that I needed to have good grades

46:57

for anything. and I remember being a junior in

47:00

high school or maybe even a senior and having

47:02

somebody say any good grades to get to school.

47:04

and it was the first time it occurred to

47:06

me. And it's not even like I made this

47:08

assumption because I'm sure if I had thought about

47:10

it, I wouldn't have. But it was. Yeah, you

47:13

go to kindergarten than to get in the elementary

47:15

school or go to L and school and middle

47:17

school, middle school, high school, high school, college. That's

47:19

how goes. In. Spurts is Magnolia. Now I've

47:21

do you, Actually have to get good

47:23

grades and I just remember ceiling Ah

47:25

man. But I think that speaks to

47:27

the disc personality type where there's no

47:30

real game plan as to how I'm

47:32

going to do these things. I figured

47:34

out I need good grades. I need

47:36

to find a way to get them

47:38

quickly. So you get a new ceiling that

47:40

where you get a therapist towards. The end

47:42

of being easier way as when my dad

47:44

was pretty insistent that I start seeing some

47:46

money. And how soon before

47:48

they. Have you would That would be

47:50

a hard thing for a therapist to bring up. I. Brought it

47:52

up. I'd already been looking things up and

47:55

it's so interesting now that I'm mentioning this

47:57

quick segue with the Eclipse. Today I was

47:59

in a hotel I've never they don't let

48:01

her tell before and I went outside by

48:04

the pool area to see the eclipse and

48:06

I was the only person out by the

48:08

pool and as I looked up I realized

48:11

that building looks similiar and this particular hotel

48:13

backs up to my college apartment where I

48:15

first started doing the research for says here

48:17

that fussy real I could literally put my

48:20

hand on the wall and it was such

48:22

an interesting moment, I can't believe I'm standing

48:24

here on the other side of the wall

48:27

that was my bedroom right there a does

48:29

hop to be. Put in this hotel.

48:31

I just happened to go outside during

48:33

this eclipse. That an interesting. Space

48:35

to be able to experience. So as

48:37

you learn about your condition both through

48:39

you major in a you get a

48:41

Phd in it. The only thing I

48:43

compared to his. I've a friend who

48:45

very late in life discovered they were

48:47

on the spectrum. And they just

48:49

since I was and through their life early.

48:52

Oh right I say like shorts his are

48:54

comfortable but I really can only wear shorts.

48:56

Okay that's part about taking been inventory of

48:58

their life to a new lens and things

49:00

are starting to make sense more. did you

49:03

have that experience as he started studying? One

49:05

hundred percent. So when I heard about

49:07

the term in my class, I

49:09

remember feeling release. Is this

49:11

is what I am? That means there's a

49:13

name for what I am. There's can be

49:16

research on it's there are at least enough

49:18

people to justify a whole personality type. So

49:20

surely there's a treatment plan to some cynical

49:23

find it. And then it became evident that

49:25

there was no treatment plan and. There was

49:27

very little research so. When I went to

49:29

see my therapist I was very upfront

49:31

about it. This is what I think

49:33

is happening. Here are the reasons that

49:35

I think they're happening and that start

49:37

from there as I didn't wanna go

49:39

and hiding anything are being cagey is

49:41

what a waste of time that would

49:43

have been so is pretty. Quick Now, despite

49:45

the fact you seen the book in, boy

49:48

you I relate to this like I should

49:50

have a nurse and so many times is

49:52

crazy. You never got cause he stole cars,

49:54

you broken people's houses. you really didn't have

49:56

any those conventional consequences. But I'm curious, even

49:58

though you weren't taking on me. Motion or

50:00

way of having disappointed? people are hurt people.

50:02

Was there an amount of wreckage accumulating in

50:05

your life that was an incentive to try

50:07

to find a treatment for this? Like the

50:09

notion that you were in search of some

50:11

treatment plan for this. To. Me

50:14

implies there was some wreckage accumulating

50:16

or something that would incentivize you

50:18

having treatment, not records. It was

50:20

more logic for me. I

50:22

remember feeling this isn't Hannibal.

50:25

I will get caught eventually.

50:27

And contrary to popular belief,

50:29

I recognize that. Being.

50:32

In a functioning society is a

50:34

great thing and it was something

50:36

that I wanted to be a

50:39

part as I recognize said I

50:41

wanted a relationship I wanted. A.

50:44

House with a picket fence. I wanted to

50:46

make dinner is on Sundays and listen to

50:48

jazz and I had these images in my

50:50

head and one of them came from a

50:53

house I saw when I was young. I

50:55

remember seeing this man and his i assume

50:57

wise and they had a baby. They were

50:59

opening a bottle of wine and I just

51:02

remember thinking that's what I want but I

51:04

wanted was normal but I don't think I

51:06

understood that at the time. I remember having

51:08

this conversation with myself which was you're gonna

51:11

need to decide how you want to. Deal

51:13

with says no Answer is wrong

51:16

Just woody. Wanna do? And

51:18

the thought that came to my was

51:20

and will do the same or it's

51:23

exhausting and it's isolating. I want to

51:25

take steps to find Sophie are coping

51:27

mechanisms so that I'm not having to

51:29

rely on these. Largely. Criminal

51:32

Antisocial. This is Not

51:34

sustainable. Got you and what were

51:37

the tools you cobbled together? Nine or

51:39

Dave plays a role in this. How

51:41

did you put together a system for

51:43

yourself? That prescriptions helped a lot at

51:45

first to there's medication. Know how my

51:48

behavior of our highways? there's I hear

51:50

these prescriptive behaviors works. A lot at

51:52

first, but like a regular prescription I started

51:54

bleeding myself off. of them. can give some

51:56

examples of what does were, so I'm very

51:58

aware that he and Door the behavior for

52:00

a restricted. Myself to stockings and breaking

52:03

into homes I said no more cars

52:05

asked us as yeah on how can

52:07

he has been excised. Or something was

52:09

allowed and breaking and be any. For me,

52:11

this is kind of like Sl like where

52:14

you set your own definition of sobriety. her

52:16

as so. I've decided at these

52:18

things are perfectly fine again positively.

52:20

I knew they weren't They weren't improvement the that. I

52:22

went to the library and I looked up stocking. I

52:24

saw that stockings was largely based again

52:27

on motivations. You're starting someone with the

52:29

intent of scaring them or harming them.

52:31

And I was. I love doing that.

52:33

So this assign I would follow through

52:35

that would watch them. I would follow

52:38

them whole load. Watch them. Would you

52:40

get busted? Would be willing with some Never. and I

52:42

just see you at seventy. When I was

52:44

twelve, I got busted by somebody walking

52:46

down the sidewalk. And. It was

52:49

they would he do and and I remember

52:51

turning around and really leaning into my last

52:53

year when I stepped forward it register on

52:55

the guy's face of this as a child

52:57

because I stepped in said look I do

52:59

have in the moon's and I remember going.

53:03

Are playing. Hide and seek and running.

53:05

I'm going so well. How's.

53:09

That for so long as it's current ever

53:11

done. He was. I

53:15

remember. That movie. There's little streaks of like.

53:17

I liked the fact that I'm not scared

53:19

and if I had been caught later and

53:21

lies, I would have had some innocuous reason.

53:24

I would have. Made. Sure, it didn't feel

53:26

scary to them for and then I

53:28

started sort of weaning myself off if

53:30

I was doing it three times. A

53:32

week I was surgery or two times

53:34

a week and then one time a

53:37

week. But then I noticed that in

53:39

winning myself off the pressure would start

53:41

to build. so I would sort of

53:43

try to supplement that with cognitive behavioral

53:45

interventions. Really really worked for me and

53:47

I feel that it would be beneficial

53:50

to anyone who is on the mild

53:52

to moderate side of the sociopath. Expect

53:54

jobs because it's the behavior you want

53:56

to address. First three, look at sociopathic

53:58

diagnostics. It's all rooted. The behavior.

54:01

But the behavior is just a reaction to

54:03

what's going on up here, and I've always

54:05

found that to be troublesome because if you're

54:07

only judging someone based on their behavior, you're

54:09

never getting get to the root cause of

54:11

it. I tried to eliminate the behavior using

54:14

journaling, so when I would be on my

54:16

lowest quote unquote dose of prescription, I would

54:18

search right. I want to go out and

54:20

break into someone's house because if I don't

54:22

I'm afraid I'll hurt someone. And then it

54:24

was a refrain based on logic. Well, you've

54:27

never hurt someone other than when you're very

54:29

young. You. Have managed to curb

54:31

these impulses both with him without

54:33

prescriptions. The odds of that happening

54:35

are low. so just these thoughts,

54:37

car thoughts, and then also analysis

54:39

talk therapy. Once the behavior had

54:41

stopped, I was able to sit

54:44

with that discomfort and then explore

54:46

that discomfort. And that was really,

54:48

really helpful to not just stop

54:50

the behavior, but we've frame the

54:52

whole picture and come up with

54:54

different coping mechanisms for what was

54:56

essentially anxiety related to the fact

54:58

that I didn't feel. The way I

55:00

was quote unquote Supposed to. Personally, be

55:03

questioned what is the relationship

55:05

between sociopath the an anxiety

55:07

Because on the outside I

55:09

would think you'd be completely

55:11

free of anxiety. Anxiety related to

55:13

things like what people saints or am I

55:16

going to get this wrong or am I

55:18

going to be in trouble. What?

55:20

I was able to figure out

55:22

was that my anxiety and this

55:24

tracks with a lot of the

55:26

research. One of the first researchers

55:28

to really dig into this hypothesized

55:30

that sociopathic behavior was related to

55:32

emotional conflicts and in her frustration

55:34

and I really landed on that

55:36

because it was this feeling that

55:38

I was supposed to be feeling

55:40

a certain way and then if

55:43

I didn't I was going to

55:45

be removed from my social comforts.

55:47

And this feeling that I had to act a

55:49

certain way. I had to keep the mascot. Is

55:52

like a closeted gay Persia I

55:54

have. Thought about that multiple times but one

55:56

of my closest friends is gay and he

55:58

said the same and I said you can

56:00

say it but I promise you sky go

56:02

out there for nice. To play their I'll

56:04

Do It For Euthanasia This I play

56:06

fast and loose with these campers. Amazing!

56:09

With. A sociopath at Perception as it exists

56:12

today is horrible, so nobody wants to

56:14

be called that. but it's exactly how

56:16

I south of has to act this

56:18

way. Otherwise, I will not be given

56:20

access to these things that I really

56:22

should be allowed to have access to.

56:25

Once the element of he says useless at

56:27

that way when I see to start telling

56:29

people hey. I'm a sociopath and

56:31

it's now as you think it is. Once

56:34

I sort of realize that the anxiety was

56:36

over gone. While some this is you kind

56:38

of stepping into the truth when does this

56:40

happen To start with Dave probably and he

56:42

didn't run out the door is really started

56:45

with my saw an enormous saying their yes

56:47

like my father is a colorful surface. And

56:50

he has a very high tolerance

56:52

for pathology. Boys and Music Business. The

56:54

I did serve a prerequisite cell with

56:56

my father. It was always. you can

56:58

tell me anything and we're gonna find

57:01

the solution. With David it was more.

57:03

You can tell me anything but. I'm

57:05

not gonna help you get out of trouble.

57:08

We're gonna stop you from putting yourself in

57:10

situations where you get into trouble. So it

57:12

really started with my dad giving me the

57:14

space to say i don't feel things like

57:17

that and I don't have seem. I don't

57:19

connect to people the way that everybody else

57:21

connects and yet everyone is always always expecting

57:24

me to have these emotional reactions and and

57:26

tired. I just wanna be alone all the

57:28

time And some of that we spoke to

57:30

before. You acting out because you're angry, you suffered

57:33

all of this and now you're going at the

57:35

you know, take what's more. Yeah, yeah, yeah, there

57:37

were some of that creeping into. how could you

57:39

not resent. The you, right?

57:41

And I guarantee you that this is what

57:43

drives other sociopath. Are you? Absolutely

57:46

sure I can add everything at

57:48

all of these resources and people

57:50

and relationship. Either you were born in one

57:52

bedroom trailer with six other kids. Yeah, now

57:54

you're on a different path altogether. more racks

57:56

and so what's interesting is that moment where

57:58

your father is accepting. Of this

58:01

news. Of course my

58:03

first thought would be oh I

58:05

would field acceptance but actually I

58:07

imagine you didn't feel acceptance but

58:09

you cognitively new. Well. He

58:11

didn't reject me threat to like the

58:14

store. Evan telling myself that I can't

58:16

exist. As myself, Without.

58:18

Being rejected. Might. Have

58:20

some holes in. A. Less rejects since I didn't

58:23

really ever. Care about rejection but just

58:25

prevents? Have you can participate? Forearm?

58:27

Yeah Yes. The velvet rope is off limits to have.

58:29

My goal was to work in the prison system. You never gonna

58:31

get to do that. You're never going to get to be a

58:33

lawyer. You're never gonna get to have any of these. Things

58:35

sell. It was more that makes sense. So

58:37

Dad, you're like, okay, He's a chink in

58:40

the logic you've assembled. And. Then Dave

58:42

is. Another. Step and may be

58:44

a different direction. A minute to view. Cobble

58:46

together some kind of. Strategic

58:48

stuff. It was really me and

58:50

my therapist seen lot worse and seeing

58:52

what didn't because there is no treatment

58:54

plants vs. the apathy. In fact, one

58:57

of the reasons why it's rarely diagnosed

58:59

is because the sort of unspoken understanding

59:01

in the prison system is a juvenile

59:03

delinquent system as as soon as a

59:05

kid is diagnosis antisocial or an adult

59:07

a sociopath that are psychopaths x they

59:09

are considered. Irredeemable. There's

59:11

not gonna be any treatment plan to. They've

59:13

already written it off zealous. It was really

59:16

just as trying to figure out based on

59:18

my experience of things and what worked for

59:20

me and what didn't what's the best way

59:22

But the number one saying that was the

59:25

most beneficial to me was normal as a

59:27

sense, not of behavior, but as feeling or

59:29

lack thereof. Once it was, hey, you know

59:31

what, I don't feel anything. That's fine, Right

59:34

right then your anxiety was gone.

59:36

You how to practice, practice, practice

59:38

anymore, right? And I thought this

59:40

was really interesting. There is a

59:42

commonly I believe that a therapist

59:44

should be extremely empathetic and emotionally

59:46

invested. How did your approached different?

59:48

What do you think is the

59:50

strengths and weaknesses? Have been a

59:52

therapist who is on the So

59:55

See offices scale. I remember. Sitting

59:57

in clinical practical with someone else

59:59

who was. Knocking about how they were

1:00:01

seeing some that they didn't like. I keep

1:00:03

my with the exact example but it's like

1:00:05

Stuxnet getting her nails and all the time

1:00:07

and I can't stand people to get their

1:00:09

nails and all the time but I just

1:00:12

thought how does of the you factor in

1:00:14

it as you know their to Co sign

1:00:16

with this person to doing and I remember

1:00:18

a lot of work spent on helping people

1:00:20

withstand their patients transference which is what's the

1:00:22

patient projects onto their therapist so you're not

1:00:24

really mad at me, you are mad at

1:00:26

your mother and you're projecting that on to

1:00:29

me and how we. Deal with this in

1:00:31

therapy. As for me to observe that

1:00:33

and say hey, I'm noticing The feelings

1:00:35

you're having about me right now sort

1:00:37

of resemble what we talked about last

1:00:39

week, But the problem is a lot

1:00:41

of times therapists as soon as that

1:00:43

had some, they get defensive, an angry

1:00:45

and so they have to find ways

1:00:47

to compartmentalize their own emotions so that

1:00:49

their emotions don't use those of their

1:00:51

paces. I remember being like I'm all

1:00:53

set on us. So. In patients with

1:00:55

like let it rip on, you

1:00:57

have some transference you're on, rustled

1:00:59

completely, That interested observance? Hey,

1:01:02

are you noticing. That.

1:01:04

You just called me a bitch,

1:01:06

but that's the same thing used

1:01:08

to call your mom as opposed

1:01:10

to I can't believe this one's

1:01:12

called me a bitch. I didn't

1:01:14

have those you reaction deadly, right?

1:01:16

I was a volunteer grief counselor

1:01:18

here and there and showing up

1:01:20

at places where people had just

1:01:22

been through absolutely agonizing traumatizing events

1:01:24

and being able to go in

1:01:26

and set and allow them to

1:01:28

tell me everything in detail and

1:01:31

they didn't have to worry that

1:01:33

I might start crying. You know it's

1:01:35

a therapist for get mostly get emotional by how

1:01:37

I perceive as problematic as if I start crying.

1:01:39

Or you tell me your story. You're going immediately.

1:01:41

When a caretaker are you going immediately? Want to

1:01:43

make me feel better about the story you're telling

1:01:45

me and they don't have to worry about me.

1:01:48

I'm as esl. I'm not going to. React.

1:01:50

To anything, even Tell me anything. I'm not

1:01:52

going to judge you for it. I'm not

1:01:54

going to have my own emotional. Reaction that

1:01:57

matches yours was a sidebar. You found

1:01:59

that is. Now moved to the

1:02:01

world. Been very up front about

1:02:03

being a sociopath. People start telling

1:02:05

you really crazy random stuff like

1:02:07

a guy at a party said,

1:02:09

i think about killing my wife

1:02:11

all the time On my right,

1:02:13

explored through a friend of thing

1:02:15

when somebody wow. What do

1:02:17

you say that? that? I am like

1:02:19

stifling a lap not eligible. Wildly

1:02:22

World Classic I. Remember really leaning

1:02:24

in and asking oh wow yeah,

1:02:26

tell me about that one of

1:02:28

them, Cecile Just very comfortable, easy,

1:02:30

breezy. Now the reason you know

1:02:32

that is because it was discussed

1:02:34

in an interview and let did

1:02:36

not get disgust was my reaction

1:02:39

after the fact and what I

1:02:41

noticed is that a lot of

1:02:43

people. Were very angry at

1:02:45

me for not doing more

1:02:47

to pretty magazine and. Yet is

1:02:49

to say I didn't I actually did. The

1:02:51

reason that I kept that man speaking as

1:02:53

because I wanted to find out where he

1:02:55

lived. I wanted to know his wife's name.

1:02:57

Tell me how you want to do like.

1:02:59

Oh, tell me about her. She sounds awful

1:03:01

and I got him to tell me all

1:03:03

these things so that when I left the

1:03:05

party, I called every single person I could

1:03:07

think of in law enforcement. I said hey,

1:03:09

disguised and sang less he's been doing that

1:03:11

and I remembered stocking this woman to make

1:03:13

sure that the she was okay. But Will

1:03:15

is interesting to me is that. By.

1:03:18

Virtue of my sociopath if diagnosis.

1:03:20

This woman heard this man say

1:03:22

the city parties She did nothing

1:03:24

when in fact, that's not true

1:03:26

that that assumption is automatically made

1:03:28

because of my diagnosis. Mortgage, even gnarly

1:03:30

or on that. There's a paradox there which

1:03:32

is the person that was judgmental of you

1:03:35

was the exact person that know what ever

1:03:37

tell anything to said. They're not doing more

1:03:39

either, they're just never getting the truth again.

1:03:41

The parallel I saw was like that's why

1:03:44

love a Zoom Go in there and every

1:03:46

one of us is a scumbag. We've all

1:03:48

done all the shit In is a place

1:03:50

where you can be fucking honest and their

1:03:52

to feel morally superior to any one else

1:03:55

is such a breath of fresh air. Like

1:03:57

I couldn't have made it's of Forty Nine.

1:03:59

Without. The place. Because of that, I

1:04:01

had too much stuff to unload that

1:04:03

I needed other people to be able

1:04:06

to handle and not be judgmental of.

1:04:08

So. I. Personally see the value in

1:04:10

that. Stay

1:04:12

tuned for more Armor Express!

1:04:16

Their. We.

1:04:19

Are supported by Mc Donald's move

1:04:21

my mind and about Mcdonalds, the

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house and on my deathbed meal

1:04:25

would be too. Big Macs exercise

1:04:27

exercise and twenty peace nuggets into

1:04:29

large fries. I'm hungry. I want

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that. Now here's some you might

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find interesting: Did you know that

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roughly one in eight people have

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1:04:42

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1:04:44

or further their career under the

1:04:46

golden arches. It's a great company

1:04:48

that has a deal offer flexible working

1:04:51

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1:04:53

little balance. Yeah I eagles as the

1:04:55

Archways Opportunity which is a program offers

1:04:57

financial support from point is trying to

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graduate college and lot that and the

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English under the Artist program which is

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world's most famous fries on day one

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anywhere else on earth. Mcdonalds is now

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And Dave and how you did

1:07:38

find a version of love that

1:07:40

of all of through Dave and

1:07:42

then also having kids. David David

1:07:44

He hates Days I'll have, I'll

1:07:47

leave. Us I named David who also

1:07:49

hates de. Assis the So at one time

1:07:51

my father's day of my brothers Dave A

1:07:53

my step dad was Daves had one was

1:07:55

David, one was Dave, one was Barton, had

1:07:57

to go by his last name. Obviously the

1:08:00

last Dave my step had to go by

1:08:02

Martin sister but that's was decided. I don't

1:08:04

really know that any of them had a

1:08:06

preference other than we had to distinguish them.

1:08:08

August Two David, how do you come to

1:08:10

experience something that you would label your version

1:08:13

of lover? How did that grow fully matlin

1:08:15

for it seems. So really young

1:08:17

and I'm grateful for that because

1:08:19

I don't think that we would

1:08:21

have been a match slater, but

1:08:23

I remember at that time I

1:08:26

felt very isolated. I was

1:08:28

looking for a buddy said Santa bounced off

1:08:30

off off and in that moment he does

1:08:32

happen to come into my life and he

1:08:34

was that buddy. I could tell him anything

1:08:37

and he didn't judge me for it, he

1:08:39

just took it and and rolled with it

1:08:41

and see, looked at my actions subjectively and

1:08:43

she would let me know if he didn't

1:08:45

think something was a good idea, but it

1:08:47

was not met with any of his negativity.

1:08:50

So we dated for a summer in i'm

1:08:52

fourteen years old but it was so matter

1:08:54

of fact my feelings about him when I

1:08:56

met him. I remember thinking. My name

1:08:58

is Patrick. I am attending this summer camp.

1:09:00

I just met the guy I'm gonna marry

1:09:03

and going to have pizza for dinner later.

1:09:05

I remember writing in my journal but it

1:09:07

didn't feel like what all of the girls

1:09:09

that I knew all he knows this romantic

1:09:11

love and I know I'm just getting Miriam

1:09:13

it wasn't I was very matter. Of fact,

1:09:15

you sit around wondering if you're thinking about

1:09:17

you are talking about you know and. So

1:09:19

when we broke up, it was more like

1:09:21

a. Weird. I really bothers him.

1:09:24

Marry that guy of horses. rains. I

1:09:26

never had a feeling like that before

1:09:28

and it was so pronounced I wouldn't

1:09:30

was that was because there was so

1:09:32

true in the way it came through

1:09:34

that we never really lost touch and

1:09:36

he went one way or when the

1:09:38

other. And I loved an entire lifetime

1:09:40

before we got back together. And when

1:09:42

we did, we have this wonderful honeymoon

1:09:44

period and in reality said and which

1:09:46

is I have this personality disorder and

1:09:48

I'm really struggling with some things and

1:09:50

David really had a hard time not

1:09:52

taking it personally. So for him it

1:09:54

was. I don't. Emote the same way

1:09:56

he does. Therefore, I don't care

1:09:58

about him as much as. He cared about me.

1:10:01

And every sane was dean sort of

1:10:03

through a very egocentric lands. Not in the

1:10:05

sense that see was in the wrong, but

1:10:07

I think it's a very really the ball.

1:10:10

Feeling. If you go in for a big

1:10:12

hug and the person doesn't want a big hug

1:10:14

your instant reaction as though I guess she doesn't

1:10:16

like me very my source as not that person

1:10:19

but I've never been that person so that was

1:10:21

a struggle. It's you have to take yourself out

1:10:23

of this equation. In. Order for you

1:10:25

and I to work. You have to

1:10:27

see that you are one type of

1:10:29

person. I am one type of person.

1:10:32

We love and demonstrate that love very

1:10:34

differently. Neither way is right or wrong.

1:10:36

it's just different. And. If you

1:10:38

were expecting that one day, You are

1:10:40

going to fix me that we should just not a

1:10:42

dollar. Know it is not. The irony is

1:10:44

that. All. Relationships And that's what

1:10:46

I've heard it said that it's so

1:10:48

clear here and there's no arguing like

1:10:51

okay, you have this personality disorders. Own

1:10:53

selfish exactly. Internet really Here we want

1:10:55

to either accept that and we move

1:10:57

forward. But I think when you have

1:10:59

this neurotypical really should there is is

1:11:02

fantasy. Believe that know you will end

1:11:04

of manipulating them and limitations. To the

1:11:06

exact same way. They also can not be

1:11:08

transcended. That's why I wrote this book because

1:11:10

there are so many really double elements to

1:11:12

this and I think that if the sociopath

1:11:14

a camper, the nonsense you pass it can't

1:11:16

just drop it for a second and get

1:11:18

together and sort of talk. You would see

1:11:21

how much we can learn from one another.

1:11:23

But with David, he did have an argument.

1:11:25

if it's doing illegal shit and it's my

1:11:27

job to protect, you can always come from

1:11:29

a place of moralities, the things you're doing

1:11:31

or immoral and I need to help you

1:11:33

stop doing those things. So he had. That

1:11:35

really effective, logical argument that was tasked

1:11:38

to push back on right now. But

1:11:40

ultimately, I need to wanna. Start.

1:11:42

Everyone's going on for my our our or is

1:11:44

of the things you're doing rolling oregon end up

1:11:46

getting you incarcerated. I would not argue with me

1:11:49

I was we morals on of yeah you have.

1:11:51

Read. Again, he is using an

1:11:53

argument that works and Italian currently signed.

1:11:55

Up. Our yeah right talk about for

1:11:57

under the spectrum. Yeah a motion no

1:12:00

Alberta among us and big emotions

1:12:02

out of the children's the already touched

1:12:04

on it. you have a child and

1:12:06

you're not feeling those feelings you see

1:12:09

on Tv or read about in

1:12:11

books, desserts, gear, you and all you

1:12:13

know gets here pissed because that was

1:12:15

your last ditch effort. Landed on

1:12:17

yeah. I was so angry at

1:12:20

myself for allowing even the tiniest

1:12:22

bit of light to sign trails

1:12:24

and how you should have known.

1:12:26

And because you put your safe

1:12:28

even slightly in that this kid's

1:12:30

going to suffer because now you're

1:12:32

pissed. Sauce. And I was

1:12:35

angry. But. Then.

1:12:37

Once that angers subsided, That.

1:12:39

Was Oh, didn't want to see the

1:12:41

gets it was personality and again the

1:12:43

curiosity that oh look wow he does

1:12:45

the stars and processes these things. It's

1:12:47

so interesting and then it was effortless.

1:12:50

After that so many women talk about

1:12:52

the baby states ah so baby stage.

1:12:54

Wish we could go back to the

1:12:56

baby stays Now I like having someone

1:12:58

who can tell me what's going on,

1:13:00

what's wrong with their feeling. I think

1:13:02

my personality was definitely working against me

1:13:04

in terms as a baby's crying and

1:13:06

you have to figure out why? I

1:13:08

don't know, can't. Read this. Yep,

1:13:10

there's any responsibility that feels

1:13:12

unique. We centered in empathy

1:13:15

is yeah, that one's you're.

1:13:17

Unhappy. What is? Ah, did David

1:13:19

need to be a little more

1:13:21

involved? You is so involved and

1:13:23

I'm really grateful because he was.

1:13:26

The interpreter? Yes and you are right And.

1:13:28

They once I was able to see, have

1:13:30

enough of those interpretations than. I thought of him

1:13:32

log about. Yes, For you have for

1:13:34

a it at all before you had

1:13:36

your kids that those composes would arise

1:13:39

in the same way or that you

1:13:41

might want to hurt them or any

1:13:43

of that. I was so grateful that

1:13:45

I did not have those feelings but

1:13:47

I do know that they exist my

1:13:49

bridge to and that he started with

1:13:51

socio busy So the idea that there

1:13:53

are other women who are afraid of

1:13:55

potentially hurting their kids I can extend

1:13:58

that bridge because I know it's. It

1:14:00

has an impulse to do something that I

1:14:02

know I don't really wanna. Do. My

1:14:04

last question is do you of

1:14:06

gratitude for your sociopath? The Indie?

1:14:08

You have resentment. really? Has so

1:14:10

much gratitude for my says

1:14:12

yeah pussy and the opportunities

1:14:14

I was given to not

1:14:17

just experience it but also

1:14:19

observe it and come to

1:14:21

understand it. Because one of

1:14:23

the reasons why I wrote

1:14:25

this book is because I'm

1:14:27

trying to not discount that

1:14:29

harmful extreme types but you

1:14:31

just include all of the

1:14:33

other not sell harmful extreme

1:14:35

types to let people understand

1:14:37

this personality type can. Be

1:14:39

used destructively. They can also

1:14:42

these constructively. I see my

1:14:44

friends grapple with guilt. And.

1:14:46

I'm really glad that I don't. I.

1:14:48

See my friends grapple with shame. As

1:14:51

a friend who I don't know that

1:14:53

she'll ever get out of the shame

1:14:55

spiral that she's in every day over

1:14:57

things that I've received to be so

1:14:59

trivial the kids said it's okay, should

1:15:02

be suffering from this self loathing for

1:15:04

what and I never. Had that

1:15:06

that I can recall. So I have

1:15:08

so much gratitude. I do wish that

1:15:10

I was able to connect. With.

1:15:12

People People tend to judge sociopath

1:15:15

because they don't connect to others.

1:15:17

Sociopath still connect because they can't

1:15:19

connect to others and that is

1:15:22

a big distinction. Don't and can't.

1:15:25

One. Implies a choice. Yeah, and that

1:15:27

was hard for me. I remember graduating and

1:15:29

having everybody coming up to me too

1:15:31

excited. Aren't you excited? And I just didn't

1:15:33

internalize any of that. But I wanted

1:15:35

to be excited. I wanted to have those

1:15:38

feelings. I see other people and how they're

1:15:40

experiencing it and it was very isolating.

1:15:42

No, I'm not. And how do I explain

1:15:44

this to you? You're coming in and

1:15:46

you're so excited for me, I can't make

1:15:49

you understand I don't have that. That

1:15:51

happens with neurotypical people. Makes you

1:15:53

think Emilio Wednesday, our generation or

1:15:55

tiger she is is enormous meteoric

1:15:58

rise in the zombie. Taylor and

1:16:00

everyone around her is so excited

1:16:02

in the pressure of internalize he

1:16:04

that excitement is not possible to.

1:16:07

Interesting that you should bring up

1:16:09

Jenna Ortega and Wednesday because people

1:16:11

ask a lot about sociopath synth

1:16:13

pop culture and how they're pretty

1:16:15

great in cinnamon. hell it is

1:16:17

and how I feel that. That

1:16:19

and I've always been frustrated by

1:16:21

these one dimensional characters and I

1:16:23

said, but one has recently risen

1:16:25

to the surface. It's Wednesday is

1:16:27

as so true. Understand that Lindsay

1:16:29

Adam sex every single box on

1:16:31

the sociopath a checklist, but she's

1:16:33

also couple of developing close relationships.

1:16:35

She does it differently. But she

1:16:37

does it. She loves her parents. She

1:16:40

sad when her pet is taken from

1:16:42

her. It's not your typical pet, but

1:16:44

she's sad. and unless she's loyal, she

1:16:47

goes all in for her friends. And

1:16:49

what people don't understand is that is

1:16:51

sensationalized for sure. but that is a

1:16:53

far more complete picture. Of

1:16:56

the sociopathic composite, it's not just the

1:16:58

bad stuff, it's all this other stuff

1:17:00

too. When I saw that, I was

1:17:02

really happy. A I Love That

1:17:05

shows my favorite shows and to me

1:17:07

it seems so obvious why so many

1:17:09

women would love that character because it's

1:17:11

completely liberated from people pleasing. Societal.

1:17:14

Pressures on women to make everyone feel comfortable

1:17:16

Overtime fun. You can tell all nervous women

1:17:18

are feeling the weight of that all the

1:17:20

time in their religion dispersing. really? Good.

1:17:22

I really just may be do exactly

1:17:25

what I want. Amount of the fucking

1:17:27

worry about it's impacting everyone around me.

1:17:29

Children. To I can't tell you how

1:17:31

much joy it brought me this Halloween

1:17:33

to see all of these children. Not

1:17:35

to throw your costumes, but taking on

1:17:37

her personality. You're looking at one of

1:17:39

them and smiling as she just. Says

1:17:42

I'm for her dowry so

1:17:44

on and. Committed. And I

1:17:46

was thinking i'm so happy

1:17:48

that you has chosen this

1:17:50

emotional outlier as your Halloween

1:17:52

hero and you are completely

1:17:55

all And it's also how

1:17:57

I introduced the subject matter

1:17:59

to. The children they have a peripheral

1:18:01

understanding, a working knowledge of to work I

1:18:03

do and the books that I wrote. But

1:18:05

when we sat down to watch Wednesday I

1:18:07

just let them watch. Be connect. Do a

1:18:10

Mommy! This is like you and I

1:18:12

said yes. I'm the blonde version of

1:18:14

men as as surely. I'm not going

1:18:16

Light is extremely she is, but

1:18:18

it's a really interesting cocktail of

1:18:20

cold and worms. That. She has

1:18:23

and it really is true. You just

1:18:25

reminded me. I'm glad you just brought it

1:18:27

up because you said in the book is

1:18:29

very common for a sociopath to have the

1:18:32

feelings we would expect from them to have

1:18:34

about humans for pets. Yes, what is the

1:18:36

explanation of the. I. Can't tell you.

1:18:38

There's been some research where some

1:18:40

of the most prolific serial killers

1:18:43

have had very intense bonds with

1:18:45

their animals, And certainly there is

1:18:47

also research that indicates that early

1:18:50

psychopathic behavior typically presents an. Early

1:18:52

mutilation of animal torture of animals.

1:18:54

And I'm not discounting that, but these

1:18:56

are two truths that cannot be held.

1:18:58

He can't say that. This person

1:19:01

is a psychopath. Therefore, they're completely incapable

1:19:03

of any type of find. They're harming

1:19:05

these people, and yet. The ceiling

1:19:07

say have about their pets is

1:19:09

insurmountable emotionally to them. There needs

1:19:11

to be more research to connect

1:19:13

those dots. Also, there's probably some

1:19:15

temptation to we win any observation as

1:19:17

being a part of the isn't which

1:19:20

also to have nothing to do with

1:19:22

itself. I have my own armchair theory

1:19:24

about people who love animals a lot

1:19:27

some people push back on this but

1:19:29

I have found it interesting that of

1:19:31

people have had really complicated relationships with

1:19:33

parents that are very pluralistic or hard

1:19:36

to figure out the real motives. The

1:19:38

joy of been able to give love

1:19:40

to something that's not gonna try to

1:19:43

manipulate you back. we. Do want to

1:19:45

send love And that is just too high

1:19:47

risk for a lot of people who have

1:19:49

been situations where they're just exploded every time

1:19:51

they do that that of course to sing

1:19:53

would appeal to you. It's a completely non

1:19:55

manipulative creature that you're able to share love

1:19:58

with without any fear of it. Be. Leveraged

1:20:00

against you and I could apply that to

1:20:02

someone dealing with sociopath. the Oars psychopathy. You

1:20:04

still want to love something but you can't

1:20:06

do it in the way everyone else would

1:20:09

accept It nears is very non complicated furry

1:20:11

saying that you can pick up and whole

1:20:13

that is mine and even be part of

1:20:15

the condition but also makes sense for the

1:20:17

condition and on the not that a judge

1:20:20

either have all of this antisocial. Tendencies

1:20:22

Yeah flat ass act. You don't

1:20:24

ever have to wear a mask

1:20:26

around your animals I have noticed

1:20:28

set for me. Dogs are tricky

1:20:30

because. Dogs her impact. And

1:20:34

they really want to show you how much they love

1:20:36

you all the time of and. I have struggled

1:20:38

with that and I try to be mindful.

1:20:40

You had a Farah I love that's embassy she

1:20:43

was so must sees you as a half. Hours

1:20:46

I saw a sees you

1:20:48

alibi. We'll also years. After she

1:20:50

died I sound treasure troves behind the

1:20:53

couches and she would not the heads

1:20:55

off as our barbie dolls and dragged

1:20:57

them down the hall to whatever trove

1:20:59

that she had decided she was going

1:21:01

to put it, we never see it

1:21:03

again but the love shiny objects sell

1:21:05

anything gold, silver is you left it

1:21:07

out. It. Would be doesn't take it

1:21:10

and two ferrets and enough to pick up

1:21:12

the couch like once a week to find

1:21:14

every cinema. Nothing I got, city or town.

1:21:16

I live for other reasons I don't want

1:21:19

kids you like. I'm sure they'd older and

1:21:21

never air friends are they will eat your

1:21:23

body within a twenty four hours after that

1:21:25

hundred percent meals a meal or not. Sentimental

1:21:28

and I do that for someone care, They're

1:21:30

dead and. I have the meanest

1:21:32

catalyze. I

1:21:35

shouldn't tell the story but I'm going to yeah

1:21:37

do it. I a mask off when. I

1:21:40

was bored and there was this leave

1:21:42

for a foster for kittens kitten students

1:21:44

and leave us to kittens And I've

1:21:46

never fostered but I was like are

1:21:48

a little I do and that's even

1:21:50

the scale as. Or to supply me some

1:21:52

possessed. So I bring these kittens home and

1:21:55

they don't have their mother, their mothers gone

1:21:57

and one by one day to start dying.

1:22:00

And I'm taking them to the rescue

1:22:02

place and I'm rushing them like some.

1:22:04

The Johnson is wrong and every time

1:22:06

I did I was met with like

1:22:08

yeah it happens like you're not even

1:22:10

gonna try to save And I remember

1:22:12

one kitten was. Crying.

1:22:14

Obviously in pain and I rushed to

1:22:16

the rescue. They took the kitten back

1:22:19

and I heard the kitten in pain

1:22:21

and paint and then adjust stuff and

1:22:23

I'm like. You to skill that

1:22:25

cat and the guy came out niggers. sometimes he

1:22:27

sings happened and I just as I got it

1:22:29

pal. To there was one catalyst. Black.

1:22:33

Cat. And I was like

1:22:35

you're not dying on my watch so

1:22:37

I took him to my that I

1:22:39

got. I'm pumped full of every vitamin,

1:22:41

mineral, antibiotic known to man and I've

1:22:43

watched over him and got him to

1:22:46

a point where he was stable and

1:22:48

then kept waiting for the rescue to

1:22:50

call. They didn't call and then finally

1:22:52

six months later. They. Call. And.

1:22:55

Is sitting in my lap purring. I have

1:22:57

the rescue on the phone in their lives.

1:22:59

Eyes were kind of that. the last fostering

1:23:01

kittens to said the other ones died, what

1:23:04

happened to him and else if you said.

1:23:08

Of well I mean lord. Because

1:23:10

they said we want you to bring him in for a check

1:23:12

up on I was like you know, get your hands on this

1:23:14

can Yeah. The last thing when intrusive

1:23:16

question would you I ask what I would ask

1:23:18

you do, we don't have to do this with

1:23:21

I know it obvious? To.

1:23:23

I would wanna know what. Was your worst behavioral?

1:23:25

oh sure sure sure Choice or to

1:23:27

rub seven Eleven has Aca. It didn't

1:23:29

go well I come home and I'm

1:23:31

in. I had a prop gun I

1:23:33

told me give me the money and

1:23:35

eagles saw clearly for guy of and

1:23:37

probably brought several some I was at

1:23:39

times and then I panicked and race

1:23:41

daughter and I had put a handkerchief

1:23:43

over the voices way to my motorcycle

1:23:46

the Irene other that's the worse when

1:23:48

I when just comes to mind where

1:23:50

I could have gone to jail for

1:23:52

sure over that and a student. At U

1:23:54

C O R Y U S de yah yah yah Parents.

1:23:57

Who is this? The Seven Eleven And Lessard

1:23:59

notices. Seventy. Then at will sure and

1:24:01

probably seven fish in Santa Monica and I

1:24:03

specifically when they they never went to that

1:24:05

when I was on the one at like

1:24:07

oh yeah, twentieth in Santa Monica Boulevard. Yeah,

1:24:09

so many terrible endless. Am just curious because

1:24:11

that would be my deep dive. Talk to me

1:24:13

about everything and it's tricky because these invasive cross

1:24:15

and civil don't wanna answer are they want to

1:24:18

take a beep the for the answers and I

1:24:20

get that. But. Actually like we're at a dinner

1:24:22

party. I with live for this I'm virtually

1:24:24

the same thing you do Jag Gregory great

1:24:26

your this like was gonna the trauma what

1:24:28

happened in child at some album get up

1:24:30

and I'm almost bored by anything short of

1:24:32

that. It's. Interesting, especially when it comes to

1:24:34

destructive behavior because to your points, he knew

1:24:36

that what you were doing was wrong. I

1:24:39

covered my license plate, but. My understanding

1:24:41

is nothing exists in that moment between

1:24:43

the behavior and less on. The. Other side

1:24:45

was his did alcohol or drugs or. Whatever it

1:24:47

is your after, but there is something that exists in

1:24:49

that It's almost like the trapeze for you. Let go

1:24:51

of one and you haven't quite made it to the

1:24:53

next. That apart I want

1:24:55

to explore cause there's. So much in

1:24:57

that moment when you are in that seven eleven

1:24:59

in the. Guys Greenstock, you hear

1:25:01

so much more. In there

1:25:04

that was happening and I would

1:25:06

once again. Into all of

1:25:08

that. Will. That was one of really

1:25:10

reeked of my sense of justice. I was obsessed

1:25:12

with this movie see by Michael Mann. My pattern

1:25:15

was our get hammered, my girlfriend go to bed,

1:25:17

I'd get even more hammond, i was thief and

1:25:19

then become obsessed with the notion of like I

1:25:21

deserved of money and I don't know how to

1:25:23

get it and I'm going to take it. I

1:25:25

just have to be willing to do it and

1:25:27

I'm a fucking pussy if I don't do in

1:25:30

your coward and all the stuff about being a

1:25:32

boy to and not tough enough are brave enough

1:25:34

And I was. As with myself and this lather

1:25:36

of like what a fucking scared little boy was

1:25:38

if I didn't. Go. Just take what I

1:25:40

know I want and I be hammered and

1:25:42

I would just make these decisions like now's

1:25:45

the time. So. You. Don't get

1:25:47

the money. You leave the seven eleven. The

1:25:49

Headlines: The Seven Eleven. The real story

1:25:51

is the fact that I didn't t

1:25:53

bone a car and die riding my

1:25:56

motorcycle. Now I'm like adrenaline through the

1:25:58

roof. I'm running away from. Seven warm

1:26:00

and I just tried to rob him saying fuck,

1:26:02

he was a little sobering. Know him. a racing

1:26:04

away from several I'm I've got about Arnold. twelve

1:26:06

blocks to go. In. Part of my

1:26:09

brain screaming, don't drive a radical, You'll get pulled

1:26:11

over. The other part of the fuck everything. Get

1:26:13

home and get off the street and getting your

1:26:15

bed in. Lock the door and let's hope that

1:26:17

nothing ever comes of this in so that, right

1:26:19

Homes probably the most dangerous aspect of the story.

1:26:21

I was riding as if I was already been

1:26:24

chased by the cops. See that's so interesting

1:26:26

case when I interpret is that there was

1:26:28

some party that wanted to be chased by

1:26:30

the cops. You had no control over your

1:26:32

that sense that if they had picked you

1:26:34

up and put you in a jail cell

1:26:37

you would have had no choice. They would

1:26:39

have can told that former. Yeah, because

1:26:41

to drive out. When

1:26:43

you know that you're basically putting.

1:26:46

A target on yourself by driving that way. Well

1:26:48

yes but I don't think I want to get

1:26:50

arrested. Nailed It was conscious. Yeah yeah I'm doing

1:26:52

something that's counter to the goal of not getting

1:26:54

arrested to get into a detail. The plan was

1:26:56

I would get that money I would drive a

1:26:58

block. I would rip them bandana off. The license

1:27:01

fake has clearly of I'm driving through Santa Monica

1:27:03

to in the morning with a bambee and over

1:27:05

my eyes as well I'm going to get pulled

1:27:07

over support The plan was to the second hours

1:27:09

out of flame of any cameras learning things are

1:27:11

going to get up and then off. But.

1:27:13

The ones I was on the bike were like no. Stopping.

1:27:16

For the bandana is more risk. We

1:27:19

just have to go million miles an

1:27:21

hour and get off the surfaced. To.

1:27:25

Live in Excess in the mind is. A

1:27:27

wonderful servant, but a terrible master. And

1:27:30

I think that your mind was probably

1:27:32

acting as a really great servant in

1:27:34

that moment, where it was doing the

1:27:37

things that your logic was telling you

1:27:39

to do that. I remember. There

1:27:41

is a scene when I made the

1:27:43

decision to jump out of this second

1:27:45

or third floor balcony at U C

1:27:47

L A and I knew I wasn't

1:27:49

gonna die That my remember. Afterwards.

1:27:52

This leading side is I was hoping a break

1:27:54

a leg. Because. I was thinking if

1:27:56

I get to see the wheelchair. I couldn't

1:27:58

do these things. It. Reading but

1:28:01

again, I. Obviously didn't want that

1:28:03

because there are much more effective ways to

1:28:05

make sure your legs get broken and jumping

1:28:07

out of a window that I knew goddamn

1:28:09

well wasn't gonna deliver. It's but there's some

1:28:11

part where that. Unconscious. Part

1:28:13

of your brain is working, but subconscious. Part

1:28:15

is working harder to make sure that you

1:28:17

don't self harm. yeah where you and I

1:28:19

would differs as hovering above all of this

1:28:22

at all time was my mom. while while

1:28:24

I'm racing home or my my mother would

1:28:26

be like what happened I gave him everything

1:28:28

and I loved him and why is he

1:28:30

being this dangerous and he's gonna die like

1:28:33

the voice of my mom and the responsibility

1:28:35

to my mom and my mom would one

1:28:37

better for me Like the mom mom mom

1:28:39

mom mom was like constantly that does seem

1:28:41

to then joining me on the most sisters

1:28:43

would allow. Have you ever diagnosed someone

1:28:46

else as a they just from being

1:28:48

around them Fiesta Interesting thing about the

1:28:50

Pcl which is assessment use for diagnosing

1:28:52

psyched out the scenes as the opposite.

1:28:54

It's a conversation that you have the

1:28:56

someone else that person doesn't realize otherwise

1:28:58

you could say have ever done this

1:29:00

and there I met the elias them.

1:29:03

But you have a conversation with someone

1:29:05

and you have those questions in the

1:29:07

back of your head but they don't

1:29:09

know You have this question see just

1:29:11

rolling through asking and getting this information.

1:29:13

So have I. Issued a formal diagnosis

1:29:15

to someone else who didn't necessarily want

1:29:18

it know, but there have been censored

1:29:20

times where I've been sitting across from

1:29:22

someone and I'm thinking. Oh yeah

1:29:24

yeah Wow. The same cause I have is like within

1:29:26

thirty seconds I know some that added yeah I'm not

1:29:28

supposed to. The laws of a I like only you

1:29:31

can diagnose herself as been an attic but I'm on.

1:29:33

The. Other person's the wrestling with this.

1:29:35

You know what it is. It's

1:29:38

the lights are on, but no one's home.

1:29:40

kind of where you're saying ah, the right

1:29:42

things and doing all the right things. But

1:29:44

he can't tell me your kids' birthdays to

1:29:46

sit on. That

1:29:48

wall Believe.

1:29:50

That through really challenged. Me some

1:29:52

of this. This this. This is. A

1:29:56

few. Get a talking. they're gonna fall through the

1:29:58

day as oh yeah, a dead person. Motorcade

1:30:00

you get. I'm really focused talking about that

1:30:02

said. ah, that's amazing. Wow, the Silicon Aires

1:30:04

wouldn't a birthday and then you see them

1:30:06

have no idea and then the answer is

1:30:08

awesome. Time in the summer and again you

1:30:10

normalize it where it's just like you're totally.

1:30:12

Everybody forgets his semi deal and again, is

1:30:14

there manipulation at play with that type as

1:30:17

discussion? Yes. Would I do that? If I

1:30:19

was in a clinical setting? a felon, the

1:30:21

prison system may even if I was sitting

1:30:23

across from someone who was earnestly trying to

1:30:25

figure it out. Know you don't employed as

1:30:27

tactics, but that's how that trust is designed

1:30:29

to be administered. Is designed to be administered

1:30:31

in a way the person on the other end does

1:30:33

not know they're receiving. It is intrinsically

1:30:35

manipulate v. S M my case. I didn't

1:30:37

know that I was receiving it, but I didn't know it.

1:30:40

The questions. Were it was just a

1:30:42

conversation. Does your guard go up

1:30:44

when you recognize someone else is

1:30:46

sociopaths? For me, it boils down

1:30:48

to hell. Where are they rise?

1:30:50

Of. You're sitting across from someone and you can tell

1:30:53

right away their an addict is. Ten minutes. after

1:30:55

you make that assessment they say to you to

1:30:57

see know I'm an addict or like okay, sit

1:30:59

there on the passer doing. The work so someone

1:31:01

is completely unaware of their own so see

1:31:03

obscene is probably a little scary or for

1:31:05

your emotional give here but whatever which has

1:31:07

use other than avoidance or to avoid and

1:31:09

are just mindful. Yes, a lot of

1:31:12

this personality type speak to people who

1:31:14

would not really believes that. Say so

1:31:16

I don't know system they are with

1:31:18

the term south objectification. You know what

1:31:21

that is. Know when you self objectify

1:31:23

someone? Basically if you're myself object, you

1:31:25

are not a person with a life

1:31:27

outside of me. You are just an

1:31:30

extension. Of me is when our sister right

1:31:32

with you are a revised by which I

1:31:34

see my reflection or something correct. So

1:31:36

that's really what things for me because I

1:31:39

also tracks associate to see in Not Okay

1:31:41

So let's see how I can get this

1:31:43

person to do my bidding, but they truly

1:31:45

don't see you as someone out there is

1:31:48

an damn. It exists once they start looking at

1:31:50

you. So as they are engaging in behavior

1:31:52

that is harmful to them, they will

1:31:54

also be engaging in behavior that's harmful

1:31:56

to you because you are an extension

1:31:58

of. Him. For me

1:32:00

now I. Just Sat. Poverty is

1:32:02

insight. Also, where'd you can tell

1:32:05

this person? sometimes there were that the things

1:32:07

that they're saying realize that other times that's

1:32:09

not true and had bet it's not even

1:32:11

registering for you And it's not true because

1:32:13

you've told the sly so many times that

1:32:15

it has become real for you. I have

1:32:18

a really really hard time with. Denial.

1:32:21

Of anything, the rather best New York

1:32:23

Times piece by your husband's is over

1:32:25

leveled as yeah. Oh, I was going to ensure that. We

1:32:28

as an area I really like

1:32:30

to know how to orient. Myself

1:32:32

in a situation. so if I'm around

1:32:34

someone who is in complete denial is

1:32:36

something that is absolutely clearly going on.

1:32:39

It's problematic, as I like nothing's off

1:32:41

limits sought about it. So choosing to

1:32:43

deny reality doesn't make that reality any

1:32:45

less real. It just makes you less

1:32:48

safe within that reality. And that's how

1:32:50

I feel around people who don't have

1:32:52

that self awareness to understand. So this

1:32:54

is real there, so attached to the

1:32:57

lie that it's no longer alive for

1:32:59

them. While they're having confirmation bias

1:33:01

of their excluding everything that would counteract

1:33:03

their lie or story in whole story

1:33:05

a liar liar story and in their

1:33:08

seen proof of it were me doesn't

1:33:10

even exist some time. Now. And they are

1:33:12

only going to see how people that come from and

1:33:14

those who don't. Are the enemy and need

1:33:17

to be eliminated at all costs? Yes.

1:33:19

I. Don't like to be anywhere

1:33:21

near that dynamic, which really was

1:33:23

a problem for me. Here is

1:33:26

my husband who's having feelings for

1:33:28

another woman and I. Really

1:33:30

understood it. She is neuro

1:33:33

typical. She's carrying sees perceives

1:33:35

his needs long before he

1:33:37

does, but not enough overstep

1:33:39