0:00

I'm. David Ferrie it in New Zealand accidently

0:02

marooned in America and I want to figure

0:04

out what makes this country tic nervous. One

0:06

thing I've learned about America this year is

0:08

that a both loves tic toc. And

0:10

also hates tick tock tick tock

0:13

influencers. A beware. Today, a house

0:15

committee voted on a bipartisan bill

0:17

that could effectively ban. The.

0:19

App and United States. The fear of

0:21

the Chinese spying on America using the

0:23

popular social media app became a giant

0:26

talking point in politics. Know American like

0:28

the idea of another country potentially spying

0:30

on them and I get it. And

0:32

but then I started to think about

0:34

all the ways America likes to spy

0:36

as well. America is a spying

0:39

superpower. A huge amount of internet

0:41

traffic runs through America, plus a bunch

0:43

of powerful software the world loves.

0:45

from Zoom to G mail are all

0:47

American an open to the American

0:49

government's prying eyes. And. Twenty twenty

0:51

two alone, a hundred and forty

0:54

five thousand Facebook users in a

0:56

hundred thousand g email accounts were

0:58

rifle through by the Us government

1:00

spy agencies. America's Foreign Intelligence Surveillance

1:02

Act has a bit code section

1:04

seven oh two, which means the

1:06

government's able to take part in

1:08

mass surveillance of things like emails,

1:10

takes social media teams, and whatever

1:12

you been up to on your

1:14

dating apps. I wanted to know

1:16

what this means for me living in America

1:19

and whether it's time for me to grab

1:21

my podcasting gear and run for the hills.

1:23

So. Get ready to share

1:25

your location data on all your

1:27

apps and wonder about who's looking.

1:29

Because this is the surveillance episode.

1:38

Birds. Fly,

1:43

list that it down in and then.

1:50

Monica they're watching they are Now don't

1:52

get it sounds like quite a serious

1:54

meaty topic, but it's also fun thinking

1:57

about these things. You know, Yeah

1:59

I mean. I. Have a weird

2:01

perspective on this. Were.

2:04

To. An accent I don't really

2:06

care. I'm kind of with you on

2:08

a personal basis. It's hard to get fired

2:10

up because others you thinking about the so

2:12

thinking you know I'm in America now I'm

2:14

a suspicious New Zealand or you know maybe

2:16

they're keeping an eye on me They always

2:18

look at me but suspiciously when I arrive

2:20

at the airport they always wanna know what

2:23

I'm doing here say like would have doing

2:25

here my do a podcast like what podcast

2:27

us feel like I'm going get kicked out

2:29

again but when it comes down to it.

2:32

Yeah. I don't really mind of their reading

2:34

my emails. It's funny isn't it? Before I

2:36

came here I put a hold of my

2:38

stuff. a New Zealand into storage, isn't a

2:40

big storage shed and some private stuff, my

2:42

own diaries and stuff. I'm like a someone

2:44

that sets the bow and steals everything from

2:47

my storage shed as anything in there that

2:49

I'd be like all know someone's got that

2:51

and I feel a bit the same about

2:53

that was a bit of a weird sort

2:55

of metaphor by feel a bit like surveillance.

2:58

I don't think it's a weird metaphor.

3:00

I think it's That's exactly what it

3:02

is, except the differences. like if roads

3:04

a bell. Minds. Are diaries

3:06

or you might not want her to

3:09

read as you know cause you have

3:11

a secret thoughts about her and the

3:13

egg and all kinds of things. That's

3:16

true. It's almost worth having a friend

3:18

get a hold of your private things

3:20

than a complete stranger who has no

3:22

context, right? Yeah, and Rosa

3:24

Bell or me we wire read

3:26

your diary. A queen has a

3:28

big internal God's grace since you're

3:31

keeping some far as. I. Think there's

3:33

nothing worse. The. Her. That I

3:35

really truly believes. I mean

3:37

this. I don't think the

3:39

government cares about our. Babies,

3:41

secrets Or even secrets that

3:43

for us. Mean. A lot

3:45

frightened like could ruin our personal

3:47

lives. They don't care. Absolutely

3:50

not. How do you feel about

3:52

that balance of privacy as idea of

3:54

having privacy but also protecting all

3:56

of us from. Whatever. Perceived

3:58

threats with a that in colonel or

4:00

external that balance you? Does it matter

4:02

that much today today. I've moved

4:05

along the spectrum on this because I

4:07

used to really not care about privacy

4:09

of go ahead looked through everything I

4:11

think you a looked through everything of

4:13

every winds. If you're gonna catch a

4:16

predator. Do it. Or. A terrorist or something.

4:18

Go. Ahead. But. Now

4:20

and I do think this has

4:23

to do with my proximity to

4:25

public figures. I do respect privacy

4:28

more. I understand privacy more and

4:30

I do understand that people like

4:32

to exploit public figures. Yeah, and

4:35

those people are my friends, so

4:37

that is scary. So I now

4:40

care about it more. But I'm

4:42

more worried about the hacker who

4:44

would want to expose something then

4:47

the government Because again, I don't

4:49

think the government. Cares about?

4:51

I don't even know some

4:54

dasa be person on intercepts

4:56

someone. Malicious coming in is much more

4:58

terrifying and I guess it comes on day

5:00

your trust of the government. Do you think

5:02

it's great? They what our best interests in

5:05

mind. It's a perception of them right? Some

5:07

people see the government is being this really

5:09

scary force. Others like think gosh as they

5:11

are looking after us. yeah. I don't

5:13

think it's either of those. I

5:15

don't think they necessarily have our

5:18

personal best interests at heart, but

5:20

they do have an overarching plan.

5:22

They are trying to maintained or

5:24

depending on his in charge democracy

5:26

and they are China Ultimately, keep

5:29

America at number one. I know

5:31

that they don't care. About.

5:34

Some. Gossipy sit they just

5:36

like don't have time for that. Government decide?

5:38

Have you overhead the little secret viewed

5:41

as any once veiled you? someone at

5:43

school gotten to a diary or did

5:45

your parents have a open the wrong

5:47

drawer and you know your private stuff?

5:49

He visited him, the privacy violations my

5:52

mum. Winter. My diary one time

5:54

but I was discussing voices did boring. Which.

5:56

Is like rainy day. I was nothing scandalous

5:58

in the i didn't. Scandalous. into I

6:01

was twenty five or something. But.

6:03

Your thoughts were. Poly Scandal. I have

6:05

to relearn. Naughty! Yeah, another source said

6:07

that they stayed in the brain which

6:09

is very healthy. I never run down

6:11

or anything now. just ping pong me

6:13

around out there. Never got them on

6:15

paper, thank god. Okay, I'm sort of

6:17

with you on that. I don't

6:19

trust a journal. Me, you know

6:22

Dax has these journals. He's written

6:24

in these journals every day since

6:26

efforts and presided over here, and

6:28

I am baffled by his willingness

6:30

to just had his turn. All

6:32

obviously trust the people in his

6:34

home. He is like having your

6:36

brain sort of or out there are

6:38

getting your brain and putting it externally

6:40

at this is scary thing that. And

6:43

I've tried diaries a couple times because I

6:45

think it's supposed to be good. They say they

6:47

are you. Say that's

6:49

and every time I do it the

6:51

next day I just like rip up

6:53

the papers from the Davis said nobody

6:56

can ever read thousand. You get rid

6:58

of that, Get rid of the evidence. Does

7:00

the government gets to you Decks could

7:02

get one of those readers as little

7:04

lock on it so lox it was

7:06

a little g one of those diaries

7:08

patently whole point he doesn't care and

7:10

he must be writing. I who knows what's

7:12

in that part. It probably is like. Yours. Name

7:14

diary the in. I

7:18

guess voice. But also I'm sort

7:20

of baffled by it. that trust.

7:23

Also like if he knew that you read

7:25

his or and all your pi just never

7:27

in his life. Ever. Again, imagine if he

7:29

lived on a little dire in the attic and

7:32

he got in there. Now is this rifling through

7:34

it? Taking family? I want to say that. He's.

7:38

So big if he attacked it would be scary. It's

7:40

because I know he does get you can get fired. I

7:42

wouldn't like to be the receiving end. I wouldn't do

7:44

well. No you? what am I mean

7:46

I go ahead and say you and

7:48

nights Okay, this is sort of a

7:51

ding ding ding because we just had

7:53

a diagnosis, he passed. On. Armchair Expert

7:55

on expert, the second a weird air

7:57

your shudder at. The

8:00

doctor therapist but she's a diagnose sociopath.

8:02

She has a book coming out and

8:04

she's written a lot for like publications

8:06

and staff. I love this. It's.

8:09

Fascinating, but part of what

8:11

her says the opposite. the

8:13

presents. She's does a lot

8:15

of stalking and snooping. that's

8:17

a big part of her

8:20

compulsions and said his his

8:22

diary was al. Should be in

8:24

there a hot one hundred percent she be

8:26

in there are so she's fully aware and

8:28

she's decided to use this as a learning

8:31

experience as if teach others and kind of

8:33

spread awareness. see. Describes it as a

8:35

it emotional learning disorder and so

8:38

there are ways you can. Learn.

8:41

It's is obviously not in the ways

8:43

that know typical people do so you

8:45

do have the know that about yourself

8:47

and it's so interesting. She. Should

8:49

work in government surveillance. I think

8:51

she be good at it gets

8:54

secrets. This is

8:56

an abrupt turn and no way totally to

8:58

do this and a good way. Now we're

9:00

recording this remote because you've got a little

9:02

cough coming on in case you by the

9:05

so you don't say to me. So I

9:07

got see Jos I don't see Jos if

9:09

you're going that what hell is this Us

9:11

show episodes Go See Joe is a really

9:14

popular fruit in New Zealand save super common.

9:16

There's certain time of the year they just

9:18

falling off trees that everywhere like you to

9:20

to this too many vetoes and America theory

9:22

had find so after that episode some sort.

9:25

Of produce place Melissa's which is apparently

9:27

it's headquarters is in California but they're

9:29

all over America. They sell Ceos and

9:32

they sent me. Suffer. A

9:34

slight amazing thing I've gotten from doing the shows

9:36

to pick box of these Harrys a senior I

9:38

cooked every house is running I listed above your

9:40

say that it features a you gripping one. Now

9:42

I am. It was so nice of you. I'm

9:44

really excited. We talked about them a lot on

9:47

the episode is that. What? You pictured. The

9:49

skin is tougher than I

9:51

picture. Is Tuscan? It's. Tough. Maybe

9:53

you said that fits. I didn't

9:56

internalize it. Kind of what the shape

9:58

of and eggs and it's got a unique live. though

10:00

thing at the saw a little gear little has

10:02

a solo had on that. Add on

10:04

it does ever had. I

10:07

feel that it it looks

10:09

like a lamb in shape.

10:11

cucumber, You're

10:14

not. You're not wrong. They're very funny

10:16

thing. Associations that you're completely rise, the

10:18

skin feels a cucumber. A note: Give

10:20

it a big snus in high. Oh

10:23

the same. What? Do you think of ammo?

10:25

It does smell right. You're right. It's not really.

10:27

That hungry? a case of i were you

10:29

more I get through floral. Are

10:31

you going to my mere? I want? you know. And.

10:33

I have a spin. Spin and you wonder

10:35

nice what you you may be? Cut through it with

10:38

a spoon. We need to cut in half. However, you'd

10:40

think about cutting the second half. A spoon could do

10:42

it. May. Give it a try. Because.

10:44

It is a tough exterior but it's also

10:47

genes. or if you just sort of saw

10:49

through with the spoon and pass, this should

10:51

do us. And. my square a

10:53

little bit on you heard as a

10:55

juicy since her moist center he really

10:58

get in there The sources. Upon.

11:02

Smoker. That what a beautiful scenes it now smell

11:05

that. give that a good sniffing series and do that.

11:07

Again, It smells delicious. Okay, great

11:09

really does. Doesn't look good. Of.

11:14

White House is the color. And

11:16

looks not vibrant. Not

11:18

vibrant know looks like my pale skin.

11:21

It was like a banana with school

11:23

stuff and. Yeah, I think

11:25

that's fair. Sort a jelly a sensor

11:27

and instead of emotes exceeds that around

11:29

the outside. It. Smells so good,

11:31

right? Really does. Now it is a

11:33

petite silly I could do with another couple

11:35

of days ripening some a little bit worried

11:37

it will be a little bit on the

11:40

sour side but I want I get that

11:42

spoon out. Use Do Outs does the whole

11:44

thing almost like an higgs. the to all

11:46

of it, the white, the hot and the

11:48

game you need to. I slide that spoon

11:50

around and really stood out of it's green

11:52

sell. A think you're right about

11:55

the rightness, but amazon as bite. oh

11:58

wow yeah chewing on Oh

12:00

wow. Now look, is it

12:03

sour? Very. Okay, so

12:05

I've given you an unripe fijo

12:07

which is a bad move on

12:09

my behalf. I got too

12:11

excited. Wow. Gave

12:13

it to you too early. This is so interesting though.

12:16

Okay, mine is very

12:18

sour but wow, it has

12:20

a lot of different flavors. This is

12:22

interesting. This is not what I was...

12:24

You're going back for more. This is a good sign. Okay,

12:27

I just watched this wine show and on

12:29

the wine show, they're identifying all the flavors

12:32

and the aromas. That's what I feel

12:35

like I'm doing right now. I taste

12:37

strawberry. I taste a

12:39

bariness. Absolutely. People

12:41

talk about strawberry. They talk about

12:43

hints of pineapple. Mm-hmm.

12:46

Mm-hmm. This

12:49

is nice. It is extremely

12:51

sour. Okay, so that's

12:54

not the ideal way. That's a wasteful tomorrow. Yeah,

12:57

I've left you a couple of others there. So just

12:59

sit them out on the shelf maybe next to some

13:01

bananas and that'll help ripen them all up. Is

13:03

it bad that I'm eating it not ripe? I know,

13:06

it's great. I mean I just love seeing you enjoying

13:08

New Zealand's best thing. It's

13:10

really good, David. Fantastic.

13:12

Well, yeah, I'm so glad. Okay, this

13:15

is great. I think this is the

13:17

first New Zealand thing. You like Tim Tams. You

13:19

didn't like pineapple lumps. I don't

13:21

think you like the Whittaker's chocolate. You didn't like Jaffas.

13:23

You hated those. Hold on. What

13:26

would... Jeffers,

13:28

do you remember I bought you

13:30

those round red candies? You

13:32

hated those. Oh, are

13:34

you talking about the orange chocolate? Yeah. Ah,

13:37

yeah, that was disgusting. You hated them. Yeah.

13:40

I hated those. But I know the chocolate was good.

13:42

The chocolate was very good. I saw it sitting there

13:44

a couple of months later. It was something

13:46

different, doesn't it? The

13:49

chocolate was good, but it wasn't... You

13:52

made it out to be like it

13:54

was gonna have magical

13:56

powers or something. Which to me

13:58

didn't, but it was very good. No,

14:00

I like the meat pies. No,

14:03

you did like the meat pie. That's right. You've

14:05

had a meat pie, you've had a sausage roll.

14:07

I got you a lambington. Yeah. The coconut sort

14:09

of, you know, that sort of fluffy cake they

14:11

had. Yeah, that was good. That was

14:13

delicious. But I think this is

14:15

the best. Yes. This

14:18

is great. This is great news. I

14:20

actually found out something interesting. It was

14:22

in an article, actually an article written

14:24

by Whittaker's chocolate, which is the New

14:26

Zealand chocolate brand. So possibly a bit

14:28

biased. But the headline in this piece

14:30

was, why does American chocolate taste bad?

14:33

Oh, God. And

14:35

I'm going to look more into this

14:37

because I think I want to do

14:40

a chocolate episode. But apparently, there's a

14:42

certain compound in some American chocolates that's

14:44

also present in rancid butter and vomit.

14:48

No, what? Oh, what's

14:50

that? Cool. So

14:52

sometimes there's some brands I got to be careful.

14:54

There's some brands of American chocolate I've eaten and

14:56

I thought that does taste a bit like vomit

14:59

to me. And so that's

15:01

why we've got very different tastes, I

15:03

think. So you as an American have

15:05

been raised on vomit tasting chocolate. So

15:07

when you actually taste sweet, delicious chocolate,

15:09

you're like, something's wrong here. No,

15:12

it's not. OK, first of all, you

15:14

are going to have to do an episode on this because I

15:16

don't believe you. Also, I on

15:19

a fact check recently because we had Rebel Wilson

15:21

on, she brought us Tim Tam's so

15:24

good from Australia. Yeah, she bought

15:26

you the right thing. They were

15:28

delicious. And then we did get on

15:31

the conversation of Australian chocolate. And then I

15:33

did look it up. It's because in

15:35

Europe and I guess Australia

15:37

and probably New Zealand, there's

15:40

God, I forget all the facts I read.

15:43

My brain does the same thing, believe me.

15:45

They're completely gone. But it's not

15:47

that there's something in our chocolate. There's something

15:49

in your chocolate. It's about like the milk

15:51

solid. It's something about the salt that make

15:53

it good. Yeah, it's the milk

15:55

side of things. We don't have. Well,

15:58

no, it's butyric acids. Turic

16:00

acid is the compound that's found in a

16:02

lot of American chocolate and that's the thing

16:04

that's also present in a lot of vomit.

16:07

Stop saying that! Oh

16:09

God! I vomited

16:11

for the first time in a long time the other day. Oh,

16:14

when you had the flu? Really off topic. Yeah,

16:16

I had the flu. I've been sick. I've

16:18

been in a bad way. It's awful vomiting, isn't it? It's

16:21

horrible. It's degrading. What am I doing?

16:23

It's awful. I'm

16:25

knocking on wood. I don't want that. Okay.

16:28

Now, sorry. I had a fever.

16:30

Really happy. Okay. So

16:32

I'm going to play you this little surveillance

16:34

documentary. I'm very excited about surveillance because I

16:36

read this book which I'm about to talk

16:38

to you about, Means of Control. And

16:41

so I just find this topic so interesting. So yeah,

16:43

this is what I learned. When

16:45

I was 16 and living in a small

16:47

town called Bethlehem in New Zealand, I was

16:49

obsessed with a movie called Enemy of the

16:51

State. It was directed by

16:54

the late great Tony Scott and starred

16:56

Will Smith and Gene Hackman. A

16:58

powerful man has been murdered. Holy.

17:01

A hidden camera recorded the crime. None of

17:03

this goes beyond us. We don't need any

17:06

more problems, do we? I don't remember it

17:08

all that well 25 years

17:10

later, but it had something to do

17:12

with a rogue NSA agent who used

17:14

America's surveillance powers to try and kill

17:17

Will Smith. Now here in

17:19

2024, with all this constant talk about

17:21

TikTok spying on us, I was back

17:24

to wondering what the NSA was up

17:26

to, and the FBI, and the CIA,

17:28

the American government. I lived

17:30

in America now, and I wanted to know

17:32

who might be prying into my business. My

17:35

name's Byron Tao. I'm a reporter

17:37

in Washington DC where I cover

17:40

mainly law, courts, and some national

17:42

security. I was talking to

17:44

Byron because he's just written an amazing

17:46

book called Means of Control. It's

17:49

about how America's tech industry has joined

17:51

forces with the government to make America

17:53

more of a surveillance state than ever

17:55

before. It wasn't an easy book for him

17:57

to write. He interviewed over 300 sources. over

18:00

four years, including a lot of people who

18:02

didn't want to talk. Yeah,

18:05

well, the most difficult part is

18:07

that when you're writing about government

18:09

surveillance programs or law enforcement techniques

18:11

that police agencies would like to

18:13

keep quiet, it's difficult to get

18:15

people to speak candidly. Often

18:17

you have to work on them hard to get

18:20

them to trust you. Often

18:22

you have to offer them anonymity

18:24

or confidentiality. And just in

18:26

general, it's a hard world to report on and

18:28

just takes a lot of time. But

18:30

he's done with the book. It's out, dedicated

18:32

to his mum, Barbara Ann. And

18:35

now he's stuck here with me. What

18:37

do you see as the things that are set in America

18:39

and makes it interesting to you when it comes to how

18:41

we're being surveilled? First, the United States,

18:43

at least in the past 20 or 30

18:45

years, has been the place where a lot

18:47

of these technologies emerged. And so, of

18:50

course, US government entities are kind

18:52

of at the forefront of figuring

18:54

out clever ways to use them

18:56

and to exploit them. And

18:58

there's just a robust technology sector in

19:01

the United States, and that technology sector

19:03

sometimes works with the government. The

19:05

second thing I would say is

19:07

actually in America, there's a deep

19:09

skepticism about government power and government

19:11

surveillance, which makes this topic controversial

19:13

in ways that I don't actually

19:15

think it's that controversial in other

19:17

places. At one point I interviewed

19:20

someone who was from the UK originally, and

19:22

he kind of rolled his eyes at the

19:24

notion that anyone would be concerned about the

19:27

government getting location data from his phone or

19:29

tracking him all the time on CCTV cameras. He

19:31

said that's just kind of how it is in the

19:33

UK. And I think

19:35

that Americans don't have that attitude

19:38

because a lot of Americans don't

19:40

trust their government. There's a long

19:42

history of civil liberties and civil

19:44

libertarianism in the United States, and

19:46

there's a lingering distrust about government

19:48

power. A lingering distrust of

19:50

government power. It has me thinking about enemy

19:52

of the State again, and a whole bunch

19:55

of American movies I grew up with where

19:57

America was the bad guy. I

20:05

suppose Americans not trusting the government is

20:07

pretty clear when you look to things

20:09

like the capital riots or just anything

20:11

and politics in the moment. The selection

20:13

year so far has been a shit

20:15

show of distrust. But. Back

20:17

to surveillance. Something. Out

20:20

Some sort of interesting as an outsider being

20:22

here is that there's so much talk and

20:24

paranoia and America. About the likes

20:26

of Tic Toc and Out China is

20:28

surveilling Americans. And. Yet, and

20:30

we see, America is doing similar things

20:33

and using similar tricks with it's own

20:35

people. I find that kind of fascinating.

20:37

It is really interesting, right? because there's

20:39

obviously not a moral equivalent you draw

20:42

between the People's Republic of China and

20:44

the United States. and in both governments

20:46

can be criticized by China is engaged

20:48

in activities and do that the Uss

20:50

Cole Genocide and in Xinjiang. But.

20:52

If you just talking about the

20:55

tools and the techniques of using

20:57

say, covert social media accounts to

20:59

push our content worth of surveilling

21:01

large parts of the globe, using

21:03

data without is something that the

21:05

United States government does and has

21:07

done. The United States government builds

21:10

apps or has contractors build apps

21:12

that collect data from people around

21:14

the world for intelligence purposes and

21:16

that sort of the same thing

21:18

that Us National Security officials are

21:20

worried about with Ted Talk. So

21:22

these information. Networks, the internet since

21:24

apps, and advertising. All of them can

21:27

be exploited by governments, whether it's the

21:29

United States government or the Chinese government.

21:31

And I think we're suddenly seeing

21:33

the Us government become aware that though

21:36

the U S had the technology

21:38

leads were twenty or thirty years

21:40

the future, it's probably belongs to other

21:42

countries. and then there will be

21:44

a robust Chinese tech sector. There will

21:46

be a robust Indian tech sector,

21:48

there will be a robust African

21:50

tax actors, and in the future. those

21:53

countries will exploit data potentially data about

21:55

americans in the way that our government

21:57

has been explaining it for the past

22:00

decades. What Byron

22:02

became particularly fascinated by is how

22:04

the American government uses consumer data

22:06

that's been hoovered up by various

22:08

apps and programs. When people

22:10

click I agree when they sign up to a new

22:13

thing on the internet, they're not generally reading the small

22:15

print. And a lot of the

22:17

time that small print is saying your data is

22:19

up for grabs to the highest bidder. So

22:22

while generally spy agency aren't allowed

22:24

to spy domestically, there are

22:26

loopholes, like buying data that

22:28

already exists on you. The

22:30

phenomenon I'm describing of data being available

22:32

for sale, I think that is a

22:34

form of bulk surveillance. And in the

22:36

United States in general, we

22:39

as a society have been very skeptical

22:41

about bulk surveillance. We're okay saying we

22:43

think this person is a criminal, I'm

22:45

going to go before a judge, I'm

22:47

going to get a warrant, I'm going

22:49

to look at their email accounts or

22:51

their text messages. I think most people

22:53

think that's reasonable. They don't think it's

22:55

reasonable is that everybody's data gets vacuumed

22:57

up into a giant database. And that

22:59

is technically not really allowed under

23:02

American law if you're targeting Americans.

23:04

The loophole is that if you

23:06

buy the data on the open

23:08

market, suddenly those constitutional protections that

23:10

Americans are used to, they go

23:12

away. And so I think Americans

23:14

generally speaking have been skeptical about

23:16

bulk surveillance programs, about mass surveillance.

23:18

They've been much more okay with

23:20

targeted surveillance, with limited surveillance, with

23:23

a judge supervising surveillance. And so

23:25

I think that the amount of

23:27

data that's sloshing around is starting

23:29

to challenge those traditional notions of

23:31

Americans' privacy and Americans' limited government.

23:33

Now it's possible that the social

23:35

bargain has simply changed and that

23:37

we all essentially have accepted this

23:39

world with both the upsides of

23:41

convenience and free digital apps, as

23:43

well as the downside of persistent

23:46

tracking by corporations and governments. These

23:48

are also comes down to this

23:50

big concept of the lawfulness versus

23:52

how ethical it is, right? Yeah,

23:54

I think so, right? Because in some

23:56

of these programs that I write about, the

23:58

government is buying our amounts of say

24:01

location data on the movement of phones and

24:03

cars. I mean it's technically been deemed legal

24:05

but if you look at the way the

24:07

data was collected, if you look at the

24:10

justifications the government has given for doing this,

24:12

essentially they're saying well consumers have

24:14

opted into this don't worry but

24:17

really consumers are not really being

24:19

told exactly how the data is

24:21

collected, they're not being told where

24:23

it's going, so it's not really

24:25

truly meaningfully consent if you want

24:27

to talk about having a consumer

24:29

truly ethically opt

24:31

into these programs because nobody who's a

24:34

potential target for surveillance by the Department

24:36

of Homeland Security or local law enforcement

24:38

is ever really going to voluntarily opt

24:40

into a surveillance program right? So you

24:43

are relying on some level of public

24:45

ignorance to track people this way. There's

24:48

a whole industry of data brokers

24:50

in America and their big customer

24:52

is the American government. Of

24:55

course, none of this is new. Back in 2019, a

24:58

Harvard professor termed it surveillance

25:00

capitalism. One senior national

25:02

security official told Byron that we're

25:04

backing ourselves into a surveillance state

25:06

and that data collection tilts the

25:09

power away from the individual towards

25:11

the government. In some of the

25:13

ways we're being surveilled, well there's

25:15

things I've never really thought of before

25:17

like when you realize something as seemingly

25:19

innocent as the tires on your car

25:21

mean you can be followed. So whenever

25:25

you start your car and you flip

25:27

through the little screen that shows the

25:29

tire pressure, the way your car

25:31

knows the tire pressure is because there's a

25:33

little sensor, a wireless sensor embedded in the

25:36

tire that's constantly communicating to the central

25:38

computer of the car and saying you know,

25:40

hey I'm tire number 3573 and my tire

25:42

pressure is 42. All is good. But of Course,

25:47

that transmission is actually just going out

25:49

into the clear. And so some very

25:51

clever government intelligence agencies have figured out

25:54

ways to build little sensors that can

25:56

detect and read these tire pressure readings.

25:58

Now I Don't. Witnesses Like a

26:01

true mass surveillance technology. I don't

26:03

recommend the People County fleet and

26:05

tires and to shows that Stairs

26:07

of Factor for surveillance and all

26:09

of these ordinary consumer technologies that

26:11

we use and that none of

26:13

them are really build for privacy.

26:15

They're not built to protect us

26:17

against tracking. There's a sort of

26:19

carelessly designed in many ways and

26:22

the government is very clever. All

26:24

these agencies a half missions and

26:26

they have technologists and they find

26:28

very clever ways to. Deliver

26:30

on these capabilities and so are many

26:32

factors for surveillance that go unconsidered by

26:34

the average person bar and also did

26:37

a deep dive into how dating apps

26:39

can be used in surveillance, how our

26:41

horny this can be weaponized against us,

26:43

the scenes around dating apps of x

26:45

ray to be as well and right

26:48

sort of stouts after new book about

26:50

Grinder and how that can be used.

26:52

Dating apps for the ultimate solid giving

26:54

out your location right? Me too that

26:56

willing. So it's not even that these

26:59

apps are making. The location available for

27:01

sale per se. It's they're just plugged into

27:03

this very complicated advertising ecosystem. And because people

27:05

when they load up dating apps on their

27:07

phone, they wanted a people near them, right?

27:10

they want to know. Are you two miles

27:12

where? you fifty miles away? Often we want

27:14

to date the person that's two miles away

27:17

so it's enable our location settings We turn

27:19

it on. But when you do that, you're

27:21

sharing all this information with tens of thousands

27:23

of parties. Are these advertising networks and some

27:26

of them are just sitting there vacuuming it

27:28

all up. In some of those people. Are

27:30

selling it to who knows right?

27:32

government agencies, private investigators, dark web

27:34

criminals. We don't know where the

27:36

data goes once it leaves are

27:38

phone and in terms of dating

27:40

apps, the really generate a very

27:42

rich repository of information because people

27:44

swipe when they're bored, they swipe

27:46

when they're lonely, and they turned

27:48

on a rich amount of data

27:50

that they're sharing with the app

27:52

and the advertisers. And so of

27:54

course, governments and data brokers have

27:56

become interested in getting location data

27:58

and standing out. Generate a very rich

28:01

stream of that. I'm increasingly aware of how

28:03

much data is being collected on me all

28:05

the time from serious apps and companies. I

28:07

went into one of those Amazon Source when

28:09

I was at a baseball game. An army

28:11

of cameras trained on me as I walked

28:14

around picking things out. There was no check

28:16

out when I was. the store at knew

28:18

what I've gotten and I was charged for

28:20

us. Look, if you're American, the

28:22

sort of shit Saudis to, but to me,

28:25

it's all pretty novel still. And.

28:27

When you throw one of those vision

28:29

Pro things on your face, that's a

28:31

whole bunch of cameras, including infrared cameras,

28:34

collecting your role, biological data, No.

28:36

Doubt at some point it'll be used to

28:38

train a i about everything to do with

28:40

you. But you can't help but

28:42

wonder. Who else might end up

28:44

prying? I think it's like

28:46

previous generations of technology like the car tires,

28:49

like the advertising networks that we're creating. these

28:51

systems and me really don't know where you

28:53

to start to think about how they're going

28:55

to be exploited in the future, right? People

28:58

are putting the large amounts of data and

29:00

to these large language models which I don't

29:02

even think their creators fully understand how they

29:04

work and what they do So and so

29:07

I do think in the future there's going

29:09

to be incidents that we'd don't even conceive

29:11

of because we don't quite understand these systems

29:13

a bit of build them for privacy. And

29:16

security. And to make sure that

29:18

the dignity of all these individuals

29:20

using them are going to be

29:22

protected, We, instead of like Americans,

29:24

rush headlong into embracing new technologies

29:26

without really thinking through that. There

29:28

are downsides. there are costs, there

29:30

are potential concerns about the way

29:32

these things will work, And so,

29:34

I think we're just at the

29:36

ferry very beginning of understanding. How

29:40

they will betray us. Vice

29:47

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Yeah. It's

32:22

a lot to take in, but it's

32:24

pretty meteor. I just find it really

32:26

interesting when you think of all these

32:28

day to day things were is a

32:30

very American saying is that because America

32:32

loves many said this advertise everywhere and

32:34

so all this data is being Hoover

32:36

Dam to be used commercially and then

32:38

the American government can jump onto that

32:40

data and legally track it's citizens and

32:42

see what we're up to. Yeah.

32:45

I understand the see around

32:47

it but I also feel

32:49

a little bit lights. We

32:51

want the technology we want

32:53

our hearts be able to

32:56

tell us about the terrible

32:58

I love. I don't want

33:00

it sacked every other day.

33:02

We like that we like

33:04

dating app. We like the

33:06

convenience so to me that

33:08

is a trade off. I.

33:10

Think. Bar and described as the social

33:12

Contract changing over time and the idea

33:14

that at has changed over time. Were

33:17

happy to put all our photos out

33:19

onto the internet. Now we used to

33:21

be paranoid about people having our photos

33:23

that in say so came along and

33:25

suddenly we were uploading thousands of photos

33:28

and I feel as the same with

33:30

the type races and the cameras can

33:32

make satellite so convenient were a title

33:34

that privacy stuff dropped behind a little

33:36

bit. I also like what he

33:38

said and I think it's really true.

33:41

A lot of other countries they just

33:43

don't have this data case and a

33:45

privacy. they're like won't Yeah, this is

33:47

how government works. I think because we

33:49

are a country of liberty, that's such

33:52

a big tennis that it creates this

33:54

big conversation. Is something I hadn't

33:56

really thought about. How America is less

33:58

trusting of his government than. It

34:00

is the people in New Zealand or

34:02

the Uk. I'd seems obvious since he

34:04

stated that, but something I hadn't really

34:06

clocks. I quite like that. Suspicious aspects

34:08

Alex: Cynical. take a little better. sorry

34:11

me. It is very yes But also

34:13

that's I mean when you're in New Zealand,

34:15

were you thinking about any of this? Because

34:17

it's happening. There is absolutely us not loud

34:19

as this On a bunch of people being

34:22

like this. Is an army New Zealand? I

34:24

mean we have a sort of a secret

34:26

spy base in New Zealand And Whip New

34:28

Zealand is part of the sinkhole, the Five

34:31

Eyes Network which her five different countries that

34:33

have joined together with America to surveil why

34:35

sobbing information about each other. So New Zealanders

34:37

via very much a part of this hundred

34:40

refunds this book. I think what Barnes done

34:42

when means who control it? It's just outlines

34:44

things I never would have thought of before

34:47

around how in our day to day life.

34:49

Than. Summation is as been who that

34:51

up and use in various ways and

34:54

obvious thing for us fairly ordinary members

34:56

the public who cares but you know

34:58

you think of journalist from do their

35:01

job or people trying to you know

35:03

speak truth to power suddenly they are

35:05

being surveilled. It's more of an issue

35:08

for them. In China, do their work.

35:10

Yes, it definitely can be. I mean

35:12

I struggle with this topic a little.

35:14

been what I'm gonna say and saying

35:17

it because I I wonder if other.

35:19

People have missed a spot by so I'm so

35:21

for me my thoughts as well Again this book

35:23

I was just as stuff. I haven't really given

35:25

a great live the thought he before there's a

35:27

part. Of this conversation that seals

35:29

conspiracy theory Adjacent: the government

35:31

is tracking your tire pressure

35:33

and I know that show

35:36

with tech with the cloud

35:38

with all of it were

35:40

available to them. You know?

35:42

It's very lines that was paranoid sinking.

35:44

Paranoia. And I think

35:46

there's a level there's a level of looking into

35:49

sensibly him being like this is a thing that's

35:51

happening, but then this is a kind of content

35:53

this gets mentally unwell people really worried about being

35:55

tracked did every moment and having chips and stole

35:58

them their brain as in this We'll Howl. Yeah,

36:00

it's very adjacent and to me dips in

36:02

and out of it. And so I keep

36:04

it at a little bit of an arm's

36:07

length. Something I've literally

36:09

sort of thought about this now as far as

36:11

where America fits in, obviously something like 9-11. We've

36:14

talked about this so much on Amt on

36:29

planes. And I wonder what

36:32

is the consensus? I wonder

36:34

if we did a survey

36:36

of the American populace. Are

36:38

we happier that we have

36:40

those precautions post 9-11 or are we not?

36:44

I mean, I am. I

36:46

like knowing that we're doing

36:48

everything we can to prevent

36:50

a disaster. Oh, completely. Did

36:53

I tell you when in New Zealand I got this

36:55

part-time job at the airport one summer when I was

36:57

studying and I had to go on to planes and

36:59

check that no one had hidden weapons on them to

37:01

be used by terrorists. Did I tell you about this?

37:04

That was your part-time job.

37:06

Pretty loose, right? It is. Yeah,

37:09

I think they had strikes at the main

37:11

Auckland New Zealand airport and so they were

37:13

down on staff. And so one summer they

37:15

did this massive hire and so I was

37:17

brought in. I head out to the airport

37:19

at 3 in the morning and the planes

37:21

would land and I would go

37:23

on with my team of people that had been

37:25

trained over sort of a week and we'd look

37:27

under the seats in the seat pockets up above

37:30

in the luggage storage to make sure no one

37:32

did like hate the knife under the seat or

37:34

something to be used by their colleagues who was

37:36

like on the next flight. So it's very dramatic.

37:39

Very dramatic. Wow. Did you

37:41

ever find one? Did anyone ever find one? Nothing. I

37:43

actually found some vomit under a seat one time.

37:46

Perfect. No, I found nothing exciting. It was the

37:48

least exciting job I've ever had in my life.

37:50

Although it was fun going out on the tarmac

37:52

and a little buggy to like get to the

37:54

planes. That was really fun. That

37:57

was fun. Yeah. Anyway.

37:59

Alright. to Byron a little bit more

38:01

about something called the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act which

38:03

is just a very American thing. So this is

38:06

the last little bit of the dark. Something

38:09

I'd forgotten to talk to Byron about

38:12

earlier was that Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.

38:14

We probably should have started there as

38:16

it's the thing that allows the government

38:18

to get potential access to our horny

38:21

dating app data, email inboxes and

38:23

whatever means we're texting to our friends. It's

38:26

called the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act

38:28

section 702. That's a

38:31

real mouthful. But what it essentially allows

38:33

is the American government to go to

38:35

tech companies like Google, like Meta, like

38:37

Twitter and get private information about people

38:40

that it deems to be lawful intelligence

38:42

targets. And it does that entirely in

38:44

secret right because we can't tell spies

38:46

and terrorists that their data is being

38:48

vacuumed up by the US government. Now

38:50

I should say all governments do a

38:52

form of this. European governments do it,

38:54

Asian governments do it, African governments do

38:56

it. They tap telecom networks, they spy

38:59

they compel companies to turn over

39:01

information for national security purposes. But

39:03

what makes America different is that

39:06

so much of the world's telecommunications

39:08

traffic passes through the United States.

39:10

A lot of it passes through switches

39:12

here in the DC area that makes

39:14

it vulnerable to interception by the US

39:17

government. And second, that a lot of

39:19

the global tech brands are American companies

39:21

and have data in the United States.

39:23

So what makes America special, what makes

39:25

it a spying superpower in many ways

39:28

is the fact that so many global

39:30

tech companies are based here and the

39:32

American government can just walk into Google's

39:34

headquarters or walk into Meta's headquarters with

39:36

a list of all the people that

39:39

it wants to target for surveillance and

39:41

get a ton of information about those

39:43

people. And it does it all in

39:45

secret. America is, in Byron's

39:48

words, a spying superpower.

39:51

And look, all power to America and catching the

39:53

bad guys. But what about the good guys that

39:55

get caught up in this? Look, I've seen enemy

39:58

of the state. I've read about it. Edward

40:00

Snowden. And as I talked to Byron, I

40:02

wondered how paranoid he is about doing the

40:04

kind of work he does here. I realise

40:07

we're talking on Zoom right now. Something

40:09

made in America, with data centres in

40:11

America, could easily be intercepted. I

40:14

wonder if stuff like that plays over in

40:16

his mind. It certainly does

40:18

because, you know, as a reporter, I'm

40:20

talking to a lot of people, I'm

40:22

trying to offer them confidentiality. In some

40:24

cases, people are breaking NDAs, and I'm

40:26

trying to protect them, right? I don't

40:28

want consequences visited on them. So I

40:31

do try to be very, very security

40:33

conscious about where I store data, how

40:35

I store data, what platforms I use.

40:37

It doesn't mean I give up using

40:39

social media. You know, I'm wearing a

40:41

fitness ring that tracks how well I

40:43

sleep. There are benefits to these technologies.

40:45

We don't all have to go live

40:47

in the woods, but we should really

40:49

use them mindfully. We should use them

40:52

aware of the downside risk. As you

40:54

say, I'm talking to you on Zoom.

40:56

Zoom has a potential to be intercepted.

40:58

So I'm, you know, I'm not saying

41:00

anything tremendously sensitive. We're having a conversation

41:02

for public consumption. If I were talking

41:04

to someone who was kind of a

41:06

whistleblower, a government insider, maybe I wouldn't

41:08

use Zoom. Maybe I would use Signal

41:10

or something. So I certainly, as a

41:13

reporter, try to be aware of this

41:15

stuff. And I think increasingly, as more

41:17

and more information becomes digitized, as so

41:19

many more professions are going to entirely

41:21

live on computers, that I think more

41:23

and more people are going to have

41:25

to think about this stuff in their

41:27

day-to-day lives. Before I let

41:29

Byron get back to his life writing about

41:32

surveillance, I wanted to know what other tips

41:34

he had when it came to protecting data

41:36

from prying eyes. It depends

41:38

what you're worried about protecting, right? So

41:40

I do think if you're talking about

41:42

shady data brokers collecting your location, you

41:44

certainly can disable a lot of the

41:46

location settings in a lot of your

41:48

commercially available apps. You don't need to

41:50

tell the weather app where you are.

41:52

You could just type in the city

41:54

where you are. You could just let

41:57

it know your location when you open

41:59

it, not 24 hours. So I would

42:01

tell people to primarily be conscious of what

42:03

information they share with these apps that they

42:05

put on their phone. There

42:08

are certainly very good

42:10

privacy protecting technologies, especially

42:12

communications technologies, WhatsApp, Signal,

42:14

Apple's iMessage. These are all

42:16

encrypted. They will all protect

42:18

the contents of your communications.

42:21

Some of them are stronger encryption than others.

42:23

Some of them collect less data than others.

42:25

But in general, the ordinary person using these

42:27

services will get a pretty decent level of

42:30

privacy. It's not perfect. You could always

42:32

hack people and steal their data. But

42:35

it's harder for snoopers, governments, telecoms

42:37

to see messages transiting on that

42:39

platform. And finally, I would really

42:42

recommend that people rethink their relationship

42:44

to paying for digital services because

42:47

when apps can't rely on people to

42:49

pay $0.99 or $1.99 for an app

42:53

or a few bucks a month for

42:55

a service, that's really when they do

42:57

turn to monetizing their user base because

42:59

it's not free to make an app. It

43:01

does cost money. You've got to hire coders

43:03

to code it. Rent server space, you have

43:06

to hire lawyers to draw up a privacy

43:08

policy. You have to pay employees. So technology

43:10

is never really free. And so

43:12

when people are unwilling to spend even a

43:14

few dollars on an app or a service,

43:16

then that's when these companies start to turn

43:18

around and say, okay, well, they want our

43:20

app and they don't want to pay for

43:22

it. Why don't we just monetize them? Why

43:24

don't we sell their data? Yeah, amen to

43:26

all of that. And yeah,

43:29

do all of that. And obviously also occasionally

43:31

let some air out of your tires, right? That's

43:34

right. If you really are concerned

43:37

about surveillance, yes, you probably want to find

43:39

a mechanic to rip those sensors out of

43:41

your car tires. Look, to be

43:43

honest, I couldn't really care less about

43:45

who's tracking my information. I won't be

43:47

deflating my tires anytime soon. Then

43:50

again, I just rewatch minority report

43:52

and it reminded me what can go wrong

43:55

when our data is harvested and used against

43:57

us. I also think the whole sick

43:59

top panic. has been really interesting to watch

44:01

and shows how differently the likes of

44:03

China thinks about this stuff to how

44:05

America thinks about it. As Byron notes

44:07

in the closing of his book, China

44:09

wants its citizens to know they're being

44:11

watched. In America, the

44:14

success lies in its secrecy.

44:18

By the time this goes to air, the

44:20

whole TikTok thing may have changed entirely, but

44:22

I do think it's kind of fascinating how

44:24

there's no great proof right now

44:26

that China is using TikTok

44:28

to influence the masses in

44:30

America or to surveil us. But it turned

44:33

into such a giant talking point, such

44:35

a big thing it's almost talked about as if

44:37

it's definite fact. I'm not on TikTok,

44:40

so I know so little about this. I know

44:42

the jib. You're lurking on TikTok

44:44

somewhere watching this. I'm lurking. No,

44:46

I'm not. I'm not. Thank God. I'm

44:49

so glad I've avoided that rabbit

44:52

hole. I'm with you. I think

44:54

it's the last social network where I think I just

44:56

haven't gotten on. It's like I've aged out and I'm

44:58

aware of it and that's okay. I agree.

45:00

I agree. I think it's

45:03

okay. But this has been talked about

45:05

since the beginning, since TikTok first blew

45:07

up. Oh, China, Chinese app, they have

45:09

all our data. They're tracking all of

45:11

it. And then

45:13

what made it turn so quickly

45:15

in the past month? There's

45:18

just been hearings about it. It's just been

45:20

this big push by America. It's sort of

45:22

a political talking point, just a crackdown. So

45:24

there was no impetus. No

45:27

reveal or anything. No big data's come out

45:29

and you see quotes from various American

45:32

intelligence agencies and they're not saying this

45:34

is a definite. They're like, oh, China

45:36

could be doing this or this is

45:38

a possibility. It's nothing concrete. But yeah,

45:41

it's been reported on so widely. I

45:43

just think it's interesting the paranoia China's

45:45

spying on us is much more worried

45:48

about by I think your typical

45:50

American than the idea that your location

45:52

data is being hovered up by

45:54

private data brokers and then sold elsewhere.

45:56

It's so easy to like fear

45:58

this outside force. as opposed to

46:00

powers within. Yeah, but there's a reason

46:02

for that, right? Oh, you don't want

46:05

other countries prying on our data. Yeah,

46:07

they have a much bigger incentive

46:09

to use it for, to quote,

46:11

take us down than

46:14

the American government does. So

46:16

are there examples of journalists

46:20

who talk about being surveilled and

46:22

then stifled? Yeah, no, absolutely. It mainly

46:24

comes to, you know, protecting sources. And

46:27

I was just revisiting the Edward Snowden

46:29

story. And that's the idea of data

46:31

being used against American citizens is this

46:33

whole other topic to go down. But

46:35

yeah, means of control, the book, it

46:37

talks about it so competently in Byron,

46:39

you know, he talked to 300 sources

46:42

for this. It's just

46:44

one of those books that's so well researched and so

46:46

level headed. I just loved reading it. So I'm like,

46:48

I've got to talk to this guy and, you

46:50

know, we've got to talk a little bit about surveillance because

46:52

it's just a fascinating space. And I think when I was

46:55

at that baseball game, looking at what

46:57

felt like 60 cameras staring at

46:59

me in the Amazon store as I picked

47:01

up my chocolate bar and my drink, I

47:04

was so stunned that this technology existed. There

47:06

was no counter. It just knew what I

47:09

had. And I walked out and it's got

47:11

my card. Yeah, there are whole

47:13

foods that do that as well. That's

47:15

right. Yeah. Which is so bonkers.

47:17

I mean, you know, when you're going

47:19

into that store or you know, when

47:21

you're going into that whole foods, that's

47:24

what's happening. So I think there's personal

47:26

responsibility. Here's sort of what he said.

47:28

He's like, if you're talking about something

47:30

extremely sensitive, maybe know how to do

47:33

that in a way. And

47:35

I yeah, I'm kind of like have

47:37

some personal responsibility. 100% general. You

47:40

know, like if you're worried about

47:43

being surveilled, probably don't shop

47:45

in that Amazon store. You

47:47

know, there's other things you can do. There's

47:50

other ways to get those, you know, that

47:52

aren't as convenient. But again, that's the trade

47:54

off. And I agree. And it's like what

47:56

he was saying. There's a reason that some apps,

47:58

it's good to pay for. them because then

48:00

they don't have to find other ways to make

48:02

money out of you as a product. So there's

48:05

a reason. That was interesting. So it's just like

48:07

little things like that that I think are interesting

48:09

to think about. Also I've heard

48:11

this come out of a lot of people's mouths that

48:13

they like their algorithm. Oh,

48:15

they're like, oh, this curates it really well for me.

48:18

Yeah, like everything I'm getting is what I

48:20

want. I'm going to

48:22

get ads anyway, might as well get

48:24

the ads of things that I might

48:26

actually use or enjoy or I don't

48:28

know. I find that takes

48:30

sort of interesting as well. The algorithm is

48:32

not working well for me at the moment.

48:35

Do you know what the algorithm is giving

48:37

me all over Facebook and Instagram? Vomit. It's

48:39

giving me, I wish it was vomit. It's

48:42

giving me birds, which I like, but

48:45

they are AI birds with

48:47

giant testicles. That's

48:49

what I'm getting. All I'm getting is a... David.

48:52

No, it's messed up. What are you talking about?

48:55

I'm being served up some kind

48:57

of hellish AI art space and

49:00

now all Facebook is serving me

49:02

and it's my fault for being on Facebook

49:04

in the first place. It's just birds with

49:06

massive nuts. Wait,

49:09

to buy a painting or

49:11

I'm so confused? No,

49:13

just like the caption will be,

49:15

here's some beautiful nature and

49:18

then I'm going to send it to

49:20

you. Don't send it to me.

49:22

I don't want that. I'm going to send

49:24

it to you. Because it's hard to describe

49:26

the stuff that I'm being served up. What

49:29

are you being served up? Some good stuff? I

49:31

mean, I get like a lot of... This

49:33

might be... Oh my gosh. Is this

49:35

the workplace picture harassment? It's all for evidence. This

49:37

is horrific. What in the fuck? I

49:40

also don't get it. I don't get why. Is this

49:42

an ad? No, it's just a lot of Facebook is being

49:44

taken over by bad AI art. It's

49:53

kind of built to go viral because

49:55

it's so weird. There was a big

49:57

phenomenon of Jesus' made out of shrimp.

50:00

That was a big thing. What the

50:02

fuck? Oh my god. Yeah, a lot

50:05

of Facebook has been taken over by

50:07

this You're on regular Facebook Yeah, it's

50:09

just a whole lot of birds is

50:11

big. I think maybe you need to get off

50:13

of that I don't

50:15

have that on Instagram. I just have

50:18

ads of clothes. Actually, I bought

50:20

this Great outfit looking

50:22

great. Thank you. That was

50:25

in targeted ad. I see

50:27

it's working for you I wish I

50:29

was getting great wardrobe advice not big

50:31

massive. Yeah, you need a new suit He

50:34

says you needed a new suit. You should get some

50:36

targeted suit ads. I need

50:39

to fix my algorithm Obviously,

50:41

I actually blame you for this. I think

50:43

it's a problem doing Yeah,

50:46

let's not get into what I'm actually searching

50:48

for my search terms Don't

50:50

make this a me problem Monica All

50:53

right, well I would say I've become

50:55

slightly more American because I Have

50:59

been thinking about American surveillance. So at least

51:01

I've got to be another 2% American. Yeah,

51:03

I mean I think We're

51:06

all being surveilled on this globe

51:08

in this global economy and it's

51:10

only gonna get more Mm-hmm. And

51:12

so gosh, I guess it's

51:14

up to everyone individually to

51:17

embrace it or reject it I

51:20

am tired. I'm just gonna embrace it

51:24

So much effort to tap out of society in

51:26

any way as well. It's kind of part of

51:28

the shit Let's just hope it doesn't get turned

51:30

against us in some way Yeah,

51:33

we'll be alright. We'll be okay. And if it all goes bad,

51:35

we'll just like head to the hills Where are the hills? Where

51:37

do you go to the hills in LA and New Zealand? Just

51:39

like if things go bad, you'll go to the hills be

51:42

like the Kaimai rangers Where do you go

51:44

in LA up the Griffith Observatory or something?

51:46

No, I think we go down I think we

51:48

like go into our bunkers. Ding ding. We go

51:50

down. Yeah, of course you go into the bunker

51:53

Yeah, which I'm kind of excited for

51:55

that. There are some beautiful bunkers All

51:59

right I'm glad you enjoyed the feature.

52:02

Your mom is healing. This is great. A more

52:04

American. Merry Christmas.