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to the Deeper on Apple Podcasts or

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Acast Plus for Android. Thanks

0:29

for watching. Welcome

0:31

to The Deep. I'm

0:35

Zoe Marshall. In

0:38

my early 20s, a lot of people were in the house. I

0:43

was very interested in the people I met.

0:47

I was very interested in the people I met. I

0:51

was very interested in the people I met.

0:53

I was very interested in the people I met. In

0:57

my early 20s, a lot of traumatic things happened.

1:00

And ever since then, I have had

1:02

this fascination with people and their stories.

1:06

This is The Deep. I

1:08

acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on

1:10

which I work and live and

1:13

recognise their continuing connection to land,

1:15

water and community. I

1:18

pay respect to elders past, present and

1:20

emerging. As

1:23

a 12-year-old, Ruth loved to chat with her

1:26

friends online, but it wasn't long before a

1:28

predator found and groomed her. This

1:30

very quickly became a real-life,

1:32

sexually abusive relationship between a

1:34

child and a full-grown adult

1:37

pedophile. We have spoken

1:39

to a few child abuse victims on

1:41

this podcast, but Ruth's memory of this

1:43

time is so clear that we get

1:45

a real insight into what 12-year-old her

1:47

was thinking and experiencing. I

1:49

think it's so important for parents to hear

1:51

this story, to understand how it happens. Ruth,

2:03

welcome to The Deep. Thank

2:05

you. Ah, where do we begin? I

2:08

want to go back to where it began when you

2:10

were a tween, right, just before

2:12

your teen years, 12 years old. You

2:17

met somebody online. Can you tell me a

2:19

bit about this person? Yes.

2:21

So I met this person on

2:25

MSN, so that was

2:27

a messaging thing that we

2:29

all used to use back in the day. And

2:33

it started with messaging

2:35

with my peers and my

2:37

extended peers. So these people that I

2:39

knew didn't go to the same school

2:41

as me. They went to another

2:43

school. And one

2:46

of their family members, an older man, started

2:49

messaging me, having access

2:51

through them. How old? He

2:53

told me that he was 26 and

2:56

we were messaging

2:59

quite a bit and

3:02

flirting and

3:04

things were becoming

3:06

more sexual. 26,

3:09

what does a 12 year old think? Or

3:12

does a 12 year old just go get

3:14

caught in the moment and go, that's so

3:17

cool. You know, somebody older

3:19

is showing me attention. This

3:23

is really exciting because like, you know,

3:25

we think what would a 12,

3:27

you know, as a parent, you're like, I know

3:29

what a fucking 26 year old wants for a 12 year old.

3:32

What is going through your head? Yeah,

3:34

it was that at the time

3:37

that it was super cool and

3:39

that I was in

3:41

a position at that age so vulnerable

3:43

and naive that I was really seeking

3:45

out a friend. I had trouble at

3:47

home where I had a

3:50

bad relationship with my mother and

3:52

I was really seeking some comfort

3:54

and attention from somebody that wasn't

3:56

my parents. And

3:59

that's where I found... myself in a perfect

4:01

situation for him to come in

4:03

and groom me. So

4:06

did you feel like what you

4:09

weren't getting at home, this older

4:11

person with wisdom,

4:13

you know,

4:15

that could take care of you in

4:17

ways that you weren't being taken care

4:19

of? Yes, and I was

4:22

so looking forward to being

4:24

a woman on my own and having

4:26

my independence that I was drawn to

4:28

a bad boy and doing

4:30

something wrong, like talking in

4:32

a sexual way with an

4:34

older guy. It was really appealing and

4:37

exciting to me as much as it

4:39

was scary and nerve-wracking.

4:43

So being sexual kind

4:45

of from the get-go or

4:47

flirty, how did it evolve? Was

4:50

it just messages?

4:53

Were there images shared? Like

4:55

who was, I'm assuming him,

4:57

was leading the relationship?

5:02

Yes, that's the natural evolving

5:04

nature of our conversations was first

5:06

of all we were talking about

5:08

things and then he would request

5:11

photos from me in which

5:13

I would oblige and they would

5:15

go from being photos of me

5:17

in clothes and then

5:20

less clothes and then it would

5:22

be nude photos and

5:24

sexually explicit photos of me doing

5:26

things. So it just was

5:29

the pressure to keep providing for him

5:31

in order to keep that conversation going. That

5:34

was a key thing about

5:36

our conversations was more, more, more.

5:39

So he was kind of

5:42

baiting you, if you want to hang out with me I need

5:44

more from you. I want to see you do this,

5:47

take off this, take a photo of

5:49

this. Put

5:52

it on the internet. Yes

5:54

and when it got to more

5:57

and more and more it went to he

5:59

would be sharing. those photos to my

6:01

peers, my extended peers, who knows

6:04

who else, his own friends. And

6:06

that was kind of

6:08

the next step was him sharing it

6:10

and then he eventually would put those photos

6:13

up on a website that he had. And

6:15

I wasn't the only young girl

6:18

who had their photos put on that website,

6:20

but that was distributed around

6:22

to my extended peer group and people at

6:24

school knew about it. Tell

6:26

me something then, the

6:29

peer group, what is the association

6:31

between the man and the peer group? Family,

6:34

related cousins and... His

6:36

connect is the cousin, younger cousin, and you're

6:39

telling me a younger cousin that's in your

6:41

peer group, 12 year old as well, is

6:44

now seeing your nude 12

6:46

year old body doing sexually explicit

6:48

things. He's sharing these images with

6:50

people at your school. Yes. Was

6:54

that humiliating? How did you feel?

6:57

It was, and there was

6:59

mixed feelings about that. So

7:02

I was trying to perform,

7:05

provide for these people, him particularly,

7:07

but then his extended group as

7:09

well. I felt that I wanted

7:11

to be seen as cool and

7:13

that I was, you know,

7:16

a team player, but there

7:18

were feelings of humiliation, absolutely. And

7:21

especially when it came to other

7:23

women or other young girls in

7:25

my peer group that I felt

7:28

embarrassed about the things that were

7:30

being shared. But mainly it was

7:32

being shared to young boys and

7:34

they weren't so... I

7:36

don't know, they were happy to receive

7:38

these pictures. So it was a way

7:41

of getting attention. Were you in primary

7:44

school or high school? It

7:47

was in New Zealand, it's intermediate. Is

7:50

that the in between one? The in

7:52

between one, yeah. Okay, got it. Oh,

7:55

it's just so icky, isn't

7:58

it? It's like this... guy

8:02

grooming not only you but these other

8:04

children to be in on the

8:07

abuse. Yes. And

8:10

then making them think this

8:12

behaviour of asking girls

8:14

to do this is okay. It's

8:16

just so many levels of fucked

8:19

upness. So tell me, is this, he's

8:22

putting these images on other websites. So

8:25

child porn essentially.

8:27

Yeah. And when you,

8:30

this is pre-meeting or after

8:33

meeting. This is

8:35

pre-meeting. So yeah, it

8:37

was these requests and things like that.

8:39

We're moving toward the direction of meeting

8:41

up and my anticipation of

8:43

that was driving me to

8:45

keep going and producing.

8:49

So you kind of knew or maybe

8:52

you didn't, that when you

8:55

met up, he was going to expect

8:57

some of the things that

8:59

he had said or asked you to perform

9:01

in your own photos. I

9:04

couldn't say that I knew. I

9:06

would say that I

9:09

anticipated that he

9:12

may want to do those things

9:14

just as two young kids would

9:16

anticipate kissing in

9:18

a closet or something like that. Those

9:20

were the similar feelings that I was

9:22

having around that situation. I was nervous.

9:25

I was scared. I knew that was part of

9:27

growing up and I was looking to get to

9:29

that. Although he was in

9:32

a position where he was taking

9:35

advantage of a child. So what

9:37

he was doing was wrong in that

9:39

situation, but my feelings and comprehension around

9:42

that was limited for sure. So

9:45

what happens the first time you meet up? Well,

9:48

I had to sneak out of my house because

9:50

I could never explain to my parents that I

9:52

was going to meet a 26 year

9:55

old man in his car, but I

9:57

managed to do that. That wasn't a problem to

9:59

get out of my house. home and when

10:02

we met up he drove

10:05

down the road, it was super close to

10:07

my house and parked up

10:09

the car and it

10:11

moved pretty quickly into a similar

10:15

pressuring and it

10:17

was pressuring to give him oral

10:20

sex, which I did.

10:23

And it was in

10:26

two senses of the word rape

10:28

in my mind because firstly

10:30

I was 12 and I could not consent to

10:33

what was going on and second

10:35

in all ways that he was

10:39

receiving, I mean he was

10:41

pushing my head down and I wasn't able to

10:45

move or decide that I didn't

10:47

want to continue. I remember thinking

10:49

that I didn't want to continue

10:51

but I couldn't get away and

10:54

when he finished, he finished into

10:56

my mouth and I still remember

10:59

that horrible feeling and

11:01

taste and situation of

11:03

being unable to stop it. But

11:11

there's some part of him that then lures

11:13

you back into the next time. Yes, I

11:17

was in that situation with things being

11:19

bad at home that it wasn't too

11:22

unfamiliar to me to have

11:25

uncomfort and feelings around allowing

11:29

people to do things to you that

11:31

you didn't want but still having a

11:33

loving relationship with them. My mum was

11:35

physically and emotionally abusive to me and

11:38

I just wasn't

11:41

able to put boundaries

11:44

in place or stand up for myself

11:46

and say that something was wrong even

11:48

though I felt it and I

11:50

still didn't think that after leaving

11:52

that situation that I wouldn't want to

11:54

go back, that wouldn't even cross my

11:57

mind that I'm not

11:59

going to do that again. So then

12:01

how long did this continue? It

12:05

continued for a year until

12:07

I was around 13. Did

12:11

it get to the point of penetrative

12:14

sex? Yes,

12:16

we had sexual intercourse on the second

12:18

time that we met. Wow.

12:22

So he's not like... This

12:25

isn't a slow move for him. It's

12:27

all guns blazing. He is... It

12:32

feels very audacious, you

12:34

know, to just... The

12:37

expectation and the... It's

12:41

not even a slow burn. It just feels

12:43

so aggressive. No, I

12:46

wonder if he was just taking

12:49

the opportunity for what it was at the time

12:51

to try and get away with what he could. But

12:54

once he realised that he could have an

12:56

ongoing relationship with me, that I

12:58

would be at his beck and

13:00

call for sex whenever he wanted, then

13:02

he certainly took advantage of that as

13:04

well. What was

13:06

that... Do you

13:09

remember much about that initial time or were

13:11

you dissociated? I remember key

13:13

things like the first time that we

13:15

had sex, I remember the smell of the

13:17

house and that there were people walking around

13:19

upstairs and the feeling

13:22

of losing my virginity. I remember that.

13:24

And then the ongoing relationship because there

13:27

would be kind of

13:29

new things like new partners being introduced

13:31

to us while we were having

13:33

sex and my friends were also...

13:37

I hadn't mentioned that a

13:39

very close friend of mine, she had this

13:41

happening to her as well with one of

13:43

his friends. So sometimes we

13:45

would all meet up together and it

13:48

would be the four of us and sometimes

13:50

some of his friends would be there or maybe

13:53

one or two more of mine and

13:56

that kind of behaviour, sex and smoking

13:59

weed. and things like that would go on

14:01

and that was what we did. I snuck out

14:03

of my house and did that for

14:07

up to a year. So sexual

14:09

acts are happening in his car at

14:11

his house with family members

14:13

in the house at the same time that you never

14:15

see. Yes, I would see them

14:17

coming in that he would kind of escort

14:19

me to a special room in

14:21

his house that was just for him and

14:24

you could tell that he just had his

14:26

things in there and nobody came to disturb

14:28

him. Was

14:30

it where he lived or you didn't know that? I

14:33

knew it was where he lived. It

14:36

all feels so secretive and so cryptic.

14:39

Was it important for

14:41

him to just keep it sexual and

14:43

private or were you dating

14:46

in a sense going out for food

14:49

and movies and you

14:52

know whatever you do with a 12-year-old? Yeah,

14:54

we would never do anything like that. I

14:57

mean it was purely just meet up and

14:59

take me to a secluded location where we

15:01

would have sex because he knew and he

15:03

told me and I knew that what we

15:05

were doing could not be found out by

15:08

anybody that it was illegal and that he

15:10

would be in a lot of trouble if

15:12

somebody found out. So

15:14

he told you it was illegal and he

15:16

would get in trouble if you told anybody.

15:19

Yes, he told me that the age

15:22

of consent that he couldn't

15:24

be caught with me younger

15:27

than 16 and so he

15:29

was very specific on explaining to me

15:31

why it was not allowed and

15:35

I kept that secret. Was there

15:37

any part of you because of that that

15:41

was triggered into maybe

15:43

you know some of those feelings when I'm uncomfortable

15:45

or I don't

15:48

like what he's doing is

15:51

associated with things being illegal or were you just was

15:55

that too much to kind of comprehend? It was.

16:00

And in some ways I pushed those feelings

16:02

down. I had been used to doing that

16:04

and feeling like something

16:06

wasn't right but I didn't know

16:08

how to say anything or stand

16:10

up for myself at that time.

16:12

There were other feelings where I

16:14

felt misunderstood by society and that

16:16

if they knew that I was

16:19

so mature then they would never

16:21

make what we were doing be

16:23

wrong. Although there was times

16:25

where I felt like it

16:28

was wrong what we were doing because I wouldn't

16:30

be able to call him at certain times or

16:33

I had to tiptoe around situations

16:35

so I knew that it

16:38

was not right but I

16:40

pushed the feelings down. Oh

16:47

I just really adored him and

16:49

I wanted unconditional love from him.

16:52

I hadn't been getting it and I thought

16:55

that if I was just sacrificed

16:58

for him then I would get that

17:01

in return. Did you feel

17:03

loved by him? Yes

17:05

I did. If you'd asked me at that

17:08

time yes I would say of course he

17:10

loves me, he's the only one who loves me,

17:12

nobody else cares about me but now

17:16

I can look back and say no he

17:19

was taking what he wanted and he

17:21

knew that whole time what he was doing. So

17:26

he's essentially

17:30

a pedophile, he's a pedophile

17:34

and you

17:37

believe you love him? Yes.

17:41

You're feeling loved by him? Yes.

17:45

So you said before

17:47

that it ended

17:49

within a year. A year

17:52

feels like a really long time and then it feels also

17:54

like a really short time when you're

17:56

saying you're in love with somebody. what

18:00

we get to what happened to end it. Within

18:03

that year, did your

18:06

mum, parents, sense

18:10

anything was off? Did,

18:13

were there other parts of your

18:15

life that this was

18:18

impacting? Yes,

18:21

for sure. I mean, my relationship

18:23

with my mum and

18:25

dad was taking a turn. They

18:27

were not aware of exactly

18:30

what was going on, but they knew how

18:32

often I was going out and they had

18:34

a fair idea about what I was doing

18:36

when I was going out. And so they

18:39

tried desperately by taking things away

18:42

from me. I mean, my room

18:44

got stripped down to just be a

18:46

mattress because they were trying to take

18:48

things away to stop me from doing

18:50

what I was doing. However,

18:52

at that time, I just felt

18:54

that I had nothing to lose because

18:56

I had nothing to gain. And I

19:00

completely, I just

19:02

didn't care what they would do. In

19:05

order to stop me, I would get around it and

19:07

I would sneak out and I would go regardless. My

19:10

schoolwork as well is something that really fell

19:12

away at that time. I was a high

19:14

performer in school and I just

19:16

stopped caring and I never

19:18

really got back into it. If

19:23

sex is happening, penetrative sex

19:26

is happening on the second

19:28

meetup. Yes.

19:30

How evolved or

19:33

how far does he push the sexual

19:35

acts with you? As

19:37

far as they can go, it would

19:39

be completely abnormal for 12 year olds to

19:42

be doing what I

19:44

was doing, which was having an ongoing sexual relationship,

19:47

but also having three sims and

19:49

four sims and smoking.

19:52

The things that I

19:54

was doing was so

19:57

beyond what I should have been.

19:59

It was really pushed to the limit and

20:01

it lowered my boundaries for

20:03

the rest of my teenage years because

20:05

I felt that I'd already experienced a

20:07

lot of things that were really new

20:09

for some young kids when they

20:12

were going and losing their virginity and exploring and

20:14

things like that. I felt I had already done

20:16

those things in that time.

20:20

Three Sims and Four Sims with

20:23

his mates that were also with

20:26

children, like who's coming in on these

20:28

things. His mates,

20:31

they would come in on those things

20:33

and they were pleased to

20:35

do it. It didn't seem in

20:37

hindsight now I think that it mustn't

20:39

have been new and it was something

20:41

that everybody knew was going on, including

20:43

his family. As

20:47

in the cousins or as in the elders?

20:50

As in the people that he was living with in

20:52

his home, I mean the way that it ended was

20:57

actually I'd had enough and had enough with

20:59

school and the friend who was also undergoing

21:01

the abuse was with me and we ran

21:03

away. We jumped on a bus and we

21:05

just took the bus as far as we

21:08

could go and eventually that evening the police

21:10

picked us up and our

21:12

parents were pulled into the police

21:14

station and they looked through my phone

21:16

and they found his number on my

21:18

phone and I'd been quite clear to

21:20

delete everything so that it couldn't be

21:22

found but they still found his number

21:25

and found out who it was and told

21:27

me that he was known to the

21:29

police for having relationships

21:31

with young children and that

21:33

he was married and he

21:35

was in his 30s

21:37

and he had children. He

21:41

was an immigrant and he had an extended

21:43

family living with him in his home life,

21:45

in his home situation and

21:48

they must have all known and it was

21:50

really shocking for me to find out that

21:52

he was a lot older than he

21:54

said he was and that the

21:56

people that he was in the house with were,

21:59

one of them was... his wife. Wow.

22:08

Yeah. So you're

22:10

saying extended family like mother,

22:13

father, auntie, uncle vibes. That

22:16

vibe, yeah. And

22:18

you had seen some of them? Who had

22:20

you seen? I

22:22

couldn't say how they were known to him.

22:24

Some of them didn't speak English. But

22:28

they were living in the house and it was

22:30

a big family unit that was living there. So

22:32

there were cousins, younger kids, there

22:34

were older adults, there

22:37

must have been his wife and there was

22:39

his children. Okay. So

22:41

this room you used to go to? Yes.

22:45

Was that his marital bedroom?

22:49

No, it wasn't. It was like a

22:51

shed. It was like a garage

22:54

room and there was a bed in

22:56

it but there was also his belongings

22:59

and things like that. So I

23:01

do think that the people in

23:03

the house must have known what he was doing with

23:05

those young girls that he was bringing into that area.

23:09

That is so wild. That

23:13

is so wild. So you hear

23:15

this from the police.

23:18

Do you believe them? No.

23:23

No, not at the

23:25

time. I mean, I denied it

23:27

and of course they wanted for

23:30

me to tell them what was going

23:32

on and I wouldn't. In

23:35

fact, my dad, he told me, if you

23:39

do say what's going on, then

23:42

you're in for a long haul at court and things

23:44

like that. You need to talk

23:46

to me about what's happening before you

23:49

talk to the police and I just

23:51

wouldn't talk to my dad. So

23:55

nothing ever came of that

23:57

intervention from the police. I

24:00

do feel a lot of guilt about

24:02

because I think that he could have

24:04

gone on to offend again. Did

24:07

the police, because they

24:10

had proof, or they had

24:12

the number? I had a

24:14

really resistant witness.

24:17

I mean, I was

24:19

not easy to deal with

24:21

in the police rooms. You know, I

24:24

was really denying that anything

24:26

was going on. I

24:28

think that they knew that they would have had

24:30

a real battle. Did the

24:32

perpetrator get approached? Did

24:34

he cut things off?

24:37

He did cut things off. I don't know

24:39

if he was approached, but when I told

24:42

him what happened, he was very spooked

24:44

and he backed right off and

24:46

he basically broke up with me. And

24:48

at that time, it was devastating. I

24:50

remember being so upset and calling him

24:53

and calling him and

24:55

he would not answer. And I

24:58

never spoke to him again. Wow.

25:05

That must have been so confusing

25:08

for you, especially if you did

25:10

feel love, whatever it

25:12

was, for him

25:14

and then for him to just damp

25:17

you. That would have been so

25:20

painful and so confusing. It

25:22

was heartbreaking. And I hadn't

25:25

told my parents what had really

25:27

been going on. And so I

25:29

really had nobody to talk to about this.

25:31

And my friends, you know,

25:33

I was falling out with people at

25:35

school because I was just the

25:38

damage. And what was going

25:40

on was it was coming out in

25:42

my relationships and my friendships. And I

25:45

was no longer able to be a normal kid.

25:47

And yeah, I

25:49

was really unsupported at that time. It

25:52

really projected me into

25:55

a horrible rest of my teens

25:57

where a lot of awful things

25:59

happened. This

26:03

happened again, didn't it? Yes.

26:08

Who with and how and what

26:10

age? Well,

26:14

after he dumped me, I went

26:16

on to try to

26:18

carry on at school. And

26:21

I was already

26:23

smoking cannabis, but my

26:26

intake of cannabis just

26:28

increased. I was smoking as

26:30

much as I possibly could. I

26:33

was bunking school from 13, 14,

26:36

and by 15, I had left school

26:38

completely. I

26:40

was acting out a lot sexually. You know,

26:43

I had slept with a lot

26:45

of guys, and it was

26:47

for the attention, and they

26:49

knew it. Everybody knew it. But I

26:51

mean, these were guys that were my

26:53

age, maybe a little

26:55

bit older, but nowhere near.

26:58

They were under 16. Sure. And

27:01

I got to 15 and left school. I

27:05

just couldn't go anymore, mainly because

27:07

my drug addiction had really started

27:09

to take over my whole entire

27:11

life. Everything during the day was just

27:14

about getting some food, getting some drugs, and

27:17

continuing until the next day, rinse and

27:19

repeat, you know. That was my existence.

27:22

And I had several

27:25

relationships. They didn't last long. It was

27:27

really difficult to be with any sort

27:29

of emotional volatility. I

27:31

would be yelling and screaming and

27:34

outbursts because I was just so

27:37

stunted. I do think that

27:39

from that age, I really didn't

27:41

grow much at that time. And

27:44

getting to 16 years old, I

27:47

had been just socially introduced to

27:49

meth, and

27:52

it wasn't long after that that the

27:54

next man came along. You know, he

27:56

kind of just swooped down in

27:58

that situation. gave

28:01

me meth and within a

28:03

year of us we

28:06

got we in the

28:08

early days that I didn't I didn't want a

28:10

relationship with him but he kept grooming me for

28:13

it would have been at least three or four

28:15

months that he was grooming me and one day

28:17

without any sexual activity and one

28:19

day he turned around and said to me if

28:21

you don't do this I'm gonna leave

28:24

and I'm never going to come back and

28:26

so I did it and from

28:28

that day on we were in a relationship.

28:31

Do what? Have sex with

28:33

him and perform for him after

28:35

all of the screaming that he's done for

28:37

the last three months he basically

28:39

said to me how do you do all

28:41

of this and not provide for me and

28:45

let's have sex right now or

28:47

I'm leaving and

28:50

so I did it but it was back

28:56

to the same situation and a

28:59

year down the track of

29:01

me just being with him at all times

29:03

all day every day using

29:06

me a lot.

29:10

We broke up after a year and I

29:12

realized how addicted I was to meth because

29:15

I hadn't been paying for it throughout our

29:17

relationship and then and then one

29:19

day when he broke up with me I realized that

29:22

I am really

29:24

in a bad situation I'm fully addicted

29:26

to meth and I need to come

29:29

up with the money now. Because this is

29:31

what I was gonna ask even before him who was

29:34

paying for the marijuana and the

29:36

food all the time you

29:38

know? I had money coming through

29:40

the government you know just the

29:42

unemployment benefit and it was

29:44

actually called the independent use benefit back then

29:47

and it was enough for me to pay to

29:50

live in a flat and to

29:52

buy drugs through the week I

29:54

would steal food mostly and all

29:56

my clothes so I had no

29:59

expenses. I was just living

30:01

to use at that time. And

30:04

then he was a dealer or he just

30:06

bought the meth? He was a

30:08

dealer. I thought so.

30:12

And so he leaves and then

30:14

how do you get your drugs? Well

30:17

the first time that he left and when

30:19

I first realised how addicted I was, I

30:21

was able

30:26

to rely on the generosity of

30:29

friends that I had in my

30:31

wider friendship network. So I

30:33

basically took advantage of young boys that

30:35

were my friends and some of them

30:38

had some money and so I would

30:40

get them to support me for a certain

30:43

amount of time and it wasn't long after we'd

30:45

broken up that we got back together. I mean

30:47

this relationship went on until I was 22 years

30:49

old. From 16 to

30:51

22? Yes. So

30:54

you were addicted to meth the whole time? No.

30:57

I went to rehab when I was

30:59

18 and we

31:01

did stay together. We

31:03

weren't in

31:05

an official relationship however. I never

31:07

stopped seeing him. I loved

31:10

him more than anything from 16 to 22. So

31:14

it was another kind of example of a

31:16

man forcing you to love

31:19

him, forcing you to be sexual.

31:22

That was the true drug for me. All

31:25

of the other things like the meth use

31:28

and what I had to do for those

31:30

drugs was a side thing. The love that

31:32

I was getting from this man was

31:34

my drug and I

31:36

just loved him and he knew that

31:39

and he took advantage of me, dumped

31:42

me off when he needed to and he would

31:45

cheat on me all the time. Ok

31:49

so super toxic

31:51

now and we're in this really toxic

31:56

place. If you get out of

31:58

this at 22. Yes.

32:01

And what, you're now 30. What

32:04

happens between

32:07

now and then? Well, while

32:09

we were still seeing each

32:11

other, I went

32:14

to rehab and it was on

32:17

one occasion that we had broken up and it was, I

32:20

was actually dropped off at my

32:22

parents doorstep, pregnant, to

32:25

his child and I had to

32:28

get myself a termination and

32:30

clean myself up and in those times

32:32

that I was resting up, I

32:35

looked into being able to get

32:37

off drugs, rehabilitations. I

32:39

had no comprehension of that. This is

32:41

just, you know, how young I was

32:43

at 16. I couldn't understand that, oh,

32:46

you could go and get help, professional

32:48

medical help for addiction, which

32:50

I did at 18

32:53

and so I went to an inpatient facility

32:55

and got clean and in that

32:58

time I really found Narcotics Anonymous

33:00

to be an extremely helpful place

33:03

for me to get well and to learn

33:05

about myself and kind of come up from

33:07

the age of 13 where

33:10

I hadn't grown at all to 18

33:12

and be a true 18-year-old and I

33:14

had relapses over those 19 and

33:17

20-year-old years and by the time

33:19

I was 22, I had

33:21

finally decided that I was done

33:23

with him. He had given me

33:25

several incurable STIs and I just

33:27

needed to leave

33:30

him and

33:32

I did and at 22 I got myself

33:34

together and I relocated.

33:37

I left the town that

33:41

I was in

33:43

and moved up to

33:45

a rural location where

33:47

I live now with my partner. I

33:49

met my partner who had

33:52

a past of addiction and he's

33:54

in recovery. He's been in recovery for

33:56

15 years and we've been together

33:59

now for eight years. and

34:01

it's just coming up 8 in February

34:03

and so yeah. Is

34:06

he also older? He

34:08

is. He is

34:10

and I definitely think that's

34:12

something that's left its mark on me since

34:15

this, I mean my

34:18

partner from 16 to 22, he was 18 years older than me.

34:23

My partner currently now, he's 23

34:25

years older than me. We

34:29

have a different relationship where we

34:32

learn from each other in our

34:34

shared trauma, you know. We

34:36

both went through really

34:38

tough times with addiction but also

34:40

with personal suffering and

34:42

the way that we want to live our lives now is to

34:46

have peace and serenity in our

34:48

life and it's

34:51

a different relationship but it is something that

34:53

I've carried on with now. Being

34:56

in a relationship

34:58

with an older man is something

35:00

that I still want and I

35:02

still get from that. What

35:05

I wanted at that time

35:07

but it isn't that toxic waste

35:10

of a partnership

35:13

that was just so

35:15

abusive so we've done

35:17

a lot of healing together. What

35:20

is it like for you now as

35:23

an adult on your

35:25

healing journey to

35:32

look at the way that this has

35:34

impacted your life? Yeah,

35:38

feelings change over time and I've

35:41

had professional therapy and help over

35:43

what I've been through but I've

35:45

also been to therapists who I've

35:48

talked about my situation and

35:50

they've really struggled to understand the dynamic of

35:52

having an older partner or seeking

35:54

that out or how I talk about what

35:56

happened to me at that age as if

35:58

it was a relationship. when really it

36:00

was a grooming

36:03

pedophile situation. I

36:06

found that some professionals

36:09

struggle to understand that dynamic.

36:12

But it's something

36:15

that I really want to share with you

36:17

and why I contacted you about this podcast

36:19

is that it is normal for me and

36:22

what I went through changed the

36:24

way that I would live my

36:26

life now. I don't want to have children

36:28

and I just want to

36:30

have a safe place at home. I

36:33

don't like to go on big overseas

36:35

travels or trips or put myself into

36:37

vulnerable situations. I don't use any drugs

36:40

and I look after myself now because

36:43

I feel that I hadn't looked after myself

36:45

and been so risky. For

36:47

other people in my past that I

36:49

really want to change that now and it

36:52

doesn't quite fit into the box of

36:54

12-step recovery or therapeutic

36:58

counselling or anything like that. But it's my own way

37:01

that I've learnt how to

37:03

live with what happened and

37:05

feel safe and happy. What

37:09

about your

37:13

parents? How

37:16

do you manage

37:19

those dynamics now with,

37:21

you know, this... We're

37:26

not blaming anybody but this was

37:29

definitely the perfect

37:32

breeding ground for a

37:34

pedophile multiple to

37:36

come into the picture, you know? Yeah,

37:40

I know. And I

37:43

think that in some ways

37:45

my parents are the only

37:48

thing that I have from that

37:50

time that know about that time and

37:52

I have to

37:54

keep my relationship with my mother very

37:58

strict and firmly. boundaries

38:00

with her because she can bring

38:02

things up for me sometimes, even

38:05

just bring them up and say things

38:08

from that time that are

38:10

just quite triggering,

38:12

I guess, you know? And

38:16

she hasn't done much personal development

38:18

of her own and I have

38:20

to just respect that situation. However,

38:22

she's not really changed as a person as she

38:25

was when I was very young and as she

38:27

is now, there

38:29

was a time where she got very

38:31

sick with cancer and our

38:33

relationship was a lot better because I had thought at

38:36

that time that that was the end. However,

38:38

she came through that and I'm really happy for

38:40

her but she

38:43

has, you know, not changed as a person or

38:45

I don't feel that there's been that growth so I just

38:49

have to keep our

38:52

relationship firm because I still have

38:54

an ongoing relationship with my family.

38:56

I can't cut her out because

38:59

I still want to have that connection with

39:02

everybody else, my dad and my siblings. But

39:05

I did relocate from the town that they

39:08

live in and that's been amazing to have

39:10

that distance between us. Really,

39:12

really good for my mental health. So

39:15

what I'm hearing is

39:17

there was no accountability

39:21

from the family

39:23

unit. My

39:26

mum once apologised to me

39:28

for how she was when I was younger

39:31

because she was so stressed and I

39:33

think that's as good as it would

39:35

ever get because I don't

39:39

feel that I could discuss what

39:42

really happened and she wouldn't

39:44

really know what really happened.

39:46

So maybe

39:48

it could change. Do

39:51

you need that? No,

39:54

I don't feel that I need it. I have a new

39:57

relationship with my in-laws. it's

40:01

not something that I need

40:03

closure on. It's an understanding that

40:06

she is how she is and she

40:08

had her own issues in her childhood

40:10

as well. Like we all have our

40:12

things. She can

40:15

either choose to work

40:17

on her stuff or she can leave it

40:19

as it is. That's her call. And for

40:22

me, I just I'm

40:24

not waiting for her to come around

40:26

and finally understand. Have

40:28

you ever heard anything further on

40:32

the pedophile or the second partner?

40:35

Well, I was thinking about this and

40:37

I said I never heard from him

40:40

again. And I did message the

40:43

pedophile on Facebook once.

40:46

I would have been a few

40:48

years ago, but I just typed his name

40:50

because it's extremely specific and

40:52

he came up immediately. And

40:55

I messaged him and I must have said something like,

40:57

ah, if I ever see

40:59

you again or la, la, la, la. And

41:04

he just blocked me straight away. And I

41:06

feel like, damn, you know, I almost

41:08

could have just reported that. And

41:11

several times I have gone to report

41:13

what he's done. But that's

41:16

only because I feel that I wish I had

41:19

at the time and not because I want to

41:21

go through that now. And

41:24

so I've never done that. And in terms

41:26

of the boyfriend from 16,

41:28

I haven't heard from him. I

41:31

don't want to hear from him. He

41:33

he tried to contact me several

41:35

times over the years after I

41:37

relocated. But I have avoided

41:39

any contact with him. And in

41:41

hindsight, I know for

41:43

him that he really never ever loved

41:45

me. And that was a

41:49

real sore

41:51

spot because I loved him so

41:54

much that and I gave him

41:56

so much. And he really betrayed me

41:58

in so many ways. that

42:00

I still live with today. So I think that,

42:03

yeah, I just don't want to

42:05

hear anything and I just can't see

42:07

him living for much longer anyway. What

42:14

a story. And I know

42:16

it is a common

42:18

one, in fact, of young

42:21

girls being

42:24

with much older men and doing things

42:26

that they are very

42:28

uncomfortable doing to be able to keep

42:30

those relationships going. I

42:34

think it is so important to share this,

42:36

especially for parents to hear this that

42:40

may have small children or may have

42:42

teenagers that want to be aware and

42:45

protect them because, you know,

42:47

more than ever the internet is a fucking wild

42:49

place to be. There's no part

42:52

of you that wants to report him. There

42:55

is. Only

42:58

to prevent further women

43:00

being abused. I really

43:03

wanted to connect with people through your

43:06

platform and this is the first kind

43:08

of step for me. I haven't spoken

43:10

to anyone outside of a

43:12

professional setting about this much

43:16

and I could, but

43:18

it's not something that I think about at the moment. Who

43:22

are you when no one's watching? I

43:28

thought about this question. I thought about

43:30

it so much because I listened

43:33

to so many of your podcasts, but I

43:36

am a really happy person and

43:38

I love

43:40

what I do and fill my life with

43:43

hobbies that challenge me and

43:45

make me happy and show

43:48

me that I can show

43:51

up for myself and do what I want and I

43:54

can be myself and be accepted.

43:56

So I'm pretty happy.

44:01

Thank you so much for being with us today.

44:03

I am so appreciative of your

44:06

time and of your honesty

44:10

and of

44:12

sharing this. So thank you so much. Thanks

44:15

for letting me talk. I

44:20

hope you enjoyed this week's episode of The Deep. If

44:23

it's left you with any burning questions

44:25

for me or our guests, please

44:27

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44:30

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44:32

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