0:01

Hello and welcome to another episode of All

0:03

the Hacks, a show about upgrading your life,

0:05

money and travel. I'm your host, Chris Hutchins,

0:07

and I am sure we've all experienced how

0:10

it can be tough to give others feedback,

0:12

especially when that feedback can be a little

0:14

critical. It's something I've struggled with,

0:16

but when I read a book about six

0:18

years ago called Radical Cander, it really changed

0:20

my approach and made the whole process so

0:22

much easier. So today I am

0:24

so excited to have the author of that

0:27

incredible bestselling book, Kim Scott, joining me to

0:29

help you improve giving and

0:31

receiving feedback that's both kind and

0:33

clear. Kim is a formal

0:35

Apple and Google exec that's helped people

0:37

around the world increase their productivity and

0:40

performance. And while this might seem just

0:42

like a framework for managers, I assure

0:44

you that anyone can benefit from learning

0:46

these important skills, even if you don't

0:48

work full time. I am very

0:50

excited for this conversation, so let's jump in

0:52

right after this. With

0:55

what AI can do these days, I'm a little

0:57

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plan for you or your entire

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family. Again, that's all the hacks.com/delete

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me. Kim,

2:11

thanks for being here. I'm a big fan of

2:13

your work and I'm excited to have you on

2:15

the show. Thank you so much. I'm really excited

2:17

for our conversation. I imagine many

2:19

people listening aren't familiar with the concept

2:21

of your first book, Radical Candor, which

2:23

I've heard you define as both caring

2:25

personally and challenging directly at the same

2:27

time. And I've also heard you

2:29

say it's best understood for what it's not. Yes.

2:32

How would you introduce that concept to

2:34

people? One of the things

2:36

about Radical Candor is that sometimes people

2:38

hear the term and they assume it

2:40

is licensed to act like a jerk,

2:43

which it is not. So if you

2:45

think about caring and challenging at the

2:47

same time, those two things, caring and

2:49

challenging, they don't really seem so radical.

2:51

So why do I call it Radical

2:53

Candor? Part of the reason is that

2:55

everyone I've ever met struggles with feedback.

2:57

They struggle hearing it and they struggle

3:00

giving it. I love a

3:02

good two by two framework. So draw

3:04

in your mind a vertical line and

3:06

that is the care personally dimension of

3:08

Radical Candor and a horizontal line. That's

3:10

the challenge directly dimension in

3:13

the bottom right hand box where you are

3:15

challenging, but you're not showing that you care.

3:17

Even if you do care, you're not showing

3:19

that you care. That is what

3:21

I call obnoxious aggression. In

3:24

the first draft of the book, I call

3:26

that the asshole quadrant because I don't know,

3:28

it seemed more radically candid and I stopped

3:30

doing that for a really important reason because

3:32

I found that when I did that people

3:35

would start writing names in boxes in this

3:37

two by two and I beg of you

3:39

and all of your listeners, please don't

3:41

do that. This is not another

3:43

Myers-Briggs personality test or something like

3:45

that. Use this kind

3:47

of framework to guide specific conversations with

3:49

specific people to a better place. So

3:52

you don't want to be obnoxiously aggressive

3:54

because it hurts other people also because

3:56

it's inefficient. If I'm a jerk to

3:58

you, Chris, then you. You go in

4:00

a fight or flight mode and then you literally

4:02

physically cannot hear what I'm saying, so I'm wasting

4:04

my breath. Not only those two

4:07

problems with obnoxious aggression, but there's a

4:09

third more subtle problem. When

4:11

I realized that I've acted like

4:13

a jerk, it's not actually my

4:15

instinctive response to move up on

4:17

the care personally dimension of radical

4:19

candor. Instead it's my response to

4:21

go the wrong way on challenge directly and say,

4:23

oh, I'm sorry, it's no big deal, I didn't

4:26

really mean it, but it is a big deal

4:28

and I did mean it, you know, so now

4:30

I'm basically lying and so now I've landed in

4:32

the worst place of all, manipulative

4:34

and sincerity. This

4:37

is where passive aggressive behavior,

4:39

political behavior, all of the

4:41

things that really erode trust

4:43

in any kind of relationship

4:45

creep in. The bottom

4:47

left quadrant where you're neither caring nor challenging.

4:49

You haven't gone the right way on care

4:51

personally, you've gone the wrong way on challenge

4:54

directly. If you think about what

4:56

goes wrong in relationships, especially what

4:58

goes wrong in relationships at work,

5:00

you're going to talk a lot

5:03

about obnoxious aggression and manipulative

5:05

and sincerity. If anybody watches The

5:07

Office, they're going to see a

5:09

lot of episodes about those two

5:11

behaviors because that's where the drama

5:13

is and the ridiculousness is. However,

5:16

I don't think these are our most

5:18

common mistakes in most relationships. In

5:21

my experience, a vast majority of us

5:24

make the vast majority of our mistakes in

5:26

this last upper left hand quadrant where you

5:28

do remember to show that you care personally

5:30

because you know what? Most people are actually

5:32

pretty nice people when it comes right down

5:35

to it. So you do remember

5:37

to show that you care personally, that

5:39

you're so worried about not offending someone

5:41

or not hurting someone's feelings that you

5:43

fail to tell them something they'd be better

5:46

off knowing in the long run and that is

5:48

what I call ruinous empathy. If there's one

5:50

big reason why I wrote radical candor, it's

5:52

to help us all be less ruinously empathetic

5:54

because it's not a good thing. It feels

5:57

nice but it's actually mean in the long

5:59

run. Yeah, I think my wife

6:01

has consistently given me feedback on my

6:03

managerial skills of like, you're being too

6:06

nice. Another way of saying

6:08

ruinously empathetic. Exactly. Another

6:10

way to think about it is to think about what's

6:12

the difference between nice and kind.

6:15

Nice usually isn't so nice in the

6:17

long run. Kind is what

6:19

we're really shooting for and I want people to

6:21

be kind but kind is radically candid. I

6:24

grew up in the South. There's this

6:26

anecdote about someone went

6:28

to finishing school and

6:31

they were taught to say

6:33

how nice instead of FU

6:35

and that's really what's going on

6:37

often when people are being too nice. Not

6:40

intentionally but sort of unintentionally. You hurt

6:42

people with that kind of ruinous empathy.

6:44

I think a lot of people have

6:46

just been raised that you know, keep your mouth shut

6:48

if you don't have anything nice to say and all

6:50

of these things that I guess leave us in that

6:52

quadrant. Yeah. That's what

6:55

it's all about. It's about me. And

6:57

then all of a sudden I was having this

7:00

career where I was teaching people, oh the problem,

7:02

the thing that lands us in ruinous empathy is

7:04

we have parents who say if you don't have

7:06

anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.

7:09

And then I myself had kids who would

7:12

say these incredibly horrible things when they were

7:14

too and I found myself saying that to

7:16

my children too. So compassion for

7:18

my parents and all the parents who said

7:20

that to their kids but it doesn't help. And

7:23

I wrote about work and managing. How important are

7:25

these skills just in life or is this really

7:27

just a workplace skill set? This

7:30

is all relationships. In

7:32

fact, my publisher really wants me to

7:34

write a book called The House of

7:36

Radical Candor where I talk about how

7:39

important this is in your personal

7:41

relationships. One time

7:43

I was giving a radical candor talk and somebody

7:45

came up to me afterwards and they said, oh

7:48

my gosh, if I had heard this five years

7:50

ago, I wouldn't be divorced right now. That's

7:53

true. I mean, in fact, I would say I

7:55

wouldn't be married right now if it weren't for

7:57

radical candor. So, when I... I

8:00

was dating this guy who's now my

8:02

husband. He had spent the night

8:04

over at my house and the next morning,

8:06

I went into another room to do yoga. I

8:08

had a one bedroom and a living room. So

8:10

it's like a two room situation. He was

8:12

still asleep and I went into the living room

8:15

to start doing yoga. And as I was

8:17

doing it, he came in and picked up

8:19

the paper and started reading the paper in

8:21

the same room where I was trying to do my

8:23

yoga. And I was like, oh my gosh, this is

8:26

why I can't be in a relationship. And

8:28

I was ready never to see him again. And then I'm like,

8:30

why don't I just ask him to leave the room? And

8:33

I said, you know, I really can't do my yoga with you

8:35

sitting there reading the paper. And he said, oh, I'm sorry. And

8:37

he left the room and I was like, oh, I could be

8:39

in a relationship. Now there's

8:41

two children and 16 years of marriage.

8:44

Wow. If you think broadly about the

8:46

kind of impact embracing radical

8:48

candor could have on your life,

8:50

your relationships, is it more productive,

8:53

happier? How do you describe that impact?

8:55

I would describe it as first, I

8:57

mean, what's most important to me is

8:59

a deep relationship with people. It's the

9:01

relationships, I think, that give both life

9:04

and work meaning. And

9:06

so you have deeper relationships and there's plenty

9:08

of evidence such as when you have better

9:10

relationships, you're happier in life. But also you're

9:13

more productive when we have a couple of

9:15

good relationships at work, especially

9:17

if that relationship is with our

9:19

boss or our employee. Like if

9:21

it's in the context of a

9:23

hierarchy, that is what unleashes our

9:25

capacity to do the very best

9:27

work of our lives because it's the relationships

9:29

at work that often give the work its

9:32

meaning. For some people, it's the work itself,

9:34

but often it's the relationships at work. I

9:36

also think that when you have a bad

9:38

relationship at work, especially if it's with

9:41

your boss, it has

9:43

a huge impact. I just read

9:45

a statistic that showed your relationship

9:47

with your boss has a bigger

9:49

impact on your health outcome than

9:52

the quality of your doctor. And I certainly

9:54

have found when I've had bad bosses, I

9:57

wake up in the middle of the night. At one point,

9:59

I had a boss. who was sort

10:01

of belittling and I literally shrank

10:04

half an inch. My doctor was like, what is

10:06

going on? You know, I was only 30 and

10:08

I'm only five feet tall. Like I didn't have

10:10

half an inch to get and

10:12

then I quit and I gained my half

10:15

an inch back. A bad relationship with a

10:17

manager can really have a physical impact on

10:19

your life. I worked with someone else who was

10:21

working for a boss who was a bully and

10:23

they broke out in hives that got like a

10:26

physical rash. It's a big deal. There's

10:28

also a lot of research that shows a bad relationship

10:30

with your boss, makes you more prone to have a

10:32

heart attack. So it really

10:34

matters. It's not like something you just have

10:36

to tough out. I imagine for a lot

10:38

of people it's uncomfortable. We talked about how a lot

10:41

of people are people pleasers. How do you figure out

10:43

where you are? Is there some kind of diagnostic? How

10:45

do you start to make change? And

10:47

then maybe after that, how do you help others? I

10:50

will say that you

10:52

probably are in all of these boxes all

10:54

of the time. So again, when

10:56

I said this is not another Myers-Briggs

10:58

personality test, try not to write your

11:00

own name in a box either but

11:02

just try to be aware when you've

11:04

drifted into the box. So

11:06

the thing that I have done that has helped me more

11:08

than anything else is to

11:11

think back over the course of

11:13

my life about a time when

11:15

I was, for example, ruinously empathetic.

11:18

We'll start there because that's the most common mistake that

11:20

we make. And then

11:22

when I'm tempted in the future to be ruinously

11:24

empathetic to think about that story. So

11:27

this happened, I had just

11:29

hired this guy. Well, he likes Bob a

11:31

lot. Bob was smart, funny, charming. He would

11:33

do stuff like we were in a manager

11:35

off-site playing one of those endless get to

11:37

know you games. Bob was the guy who

11:39

had the courage to raise his hand and

11:42

to say, I can tell everybody is really

11:44

stressed out. Everybody kind of wants to get

11:46

back to work. I've got an idea. It

11:48

will help us get to know each other and it'll be

11:50

really fast. Whatever his idea

11:52

was, if it was really fast, we were down

11:54

with it. So Bob says, let's

11:56

just go around the table and confess

11:59

what candy our parents used when

12:01

potty training us. Really weird but

12:03

really fast. Weirder yet, everybody remembered

12:05

Hershey Kisses right here. And

12:08

then for the next 10 months, every time

12:10

there was a tense moment in a meeting,

12:13

Bob would whip out just the right piece of candy

12:15

for the right person at the right

12:17

moment. So Bob was a little

12:19

quirky but brought some levity to the office.

12:21

Everybody loved working with Bob. There was

12:23

one big problem with Bob. He was doing

12:26

terrible work. He would hand stuff into me

12:28

and there was shame in his eyes. And

12:30

I was so puzzled. I couldn't understand what

12:32

was going on because he had this incredible

12:35

resume, this great history of accomplishments. I learned

12:37

much later, the problem was that Bob was

12:39

smoking pot in the bathroom three

12:41

times a day which maybe explained all that candy

12:44

that he had all the time. But I didn't

12:46

know any of that at the time. All I

12:48

knew was that he was handing in this terrible

12:50

work to me. And I would say something to

12:52

him along the lines of, oh Bob,

12:55

this is a great start. You're so

12:57

awesome. Everybody loves working with you. Maybe

12:59

you can make it just a little bit

13:01

better, you know, kind of the thing that

13:03

we do when we're being too

13:05

quote unquote nice. And

13:07

it's worth double clicking on this too

13:09

nice. Like why was I doing that?

13:11

I think part of it was truly

13:13

ruinous empathy. I really did like Bob

13:16

and I really did not want to hurt Bob's feelings.

13:19

But if I'm honest with myself, there

13:22

was also something more insidious going on

13:24

there because Bob was

13:26

popular and Bob was also

13:28

kind of sensitive. And so there was part of

13:30

me that was afraid if I told Bob in

13:33

no uncertain terms that his work wasn't nearly good

13:35

enough that he would get

13:37

upset. He might even start to cry. And

13:39

then everybody would think I was a big,

13:41

you know what? The part of me that

13:43

was worried about my reputation as Bob's boss

13:46

was the manipulative and sincerity part.

13:48

That's why I was reluctant to give

13:50

him honest feedback, radically candid feedback.

13:54

And then the part of me that

13:56

was worried about Bob's feelings, that was the

13:58

ruinous empathy part. And this went on. for

14:00

10 months and eventually the inevitable

14:02

happened. And I realized that if

14:04

I don't fire Bob, I'm going

14:06

to lose all the best performers

14:08

on the team because not only

14:11

have I been unfair and really

14:13

unkind to Bob not to tell

14:15

him, I've been unfair to the

14:17

whole team because not

14:19

only is Bob not getting any better,

14:22

but they're deliverables. Everybody's deliverables are late

14:24

because Bob's deliverables are late. Everybody on

14:27

the team is not able to spend

14:29

as much time as they need to on

14:31

their work because they're having to redo Bob's work. And

14:33

the people who are best at the job are going to quit and go

14:36

work somewhere where they can do their best work. And

14:39

so when I realized this, I sat

14:41

down to have a conversation with Bob

14:43

that I should have started frankly 10

14:45

months previously. And when

14:48

I finished explaining to him where things stood,

14:50

he pushed his chair back from the table

14:52

and he looked at me right in the

14:54

eye and he said, why didn't

14:56

you tell me that question was

14:58

going around in my head with

15:01

no good answer. He

15:03

looked at me again and he said, why didn't

15:05

anyone tell me? I thought you all cared about

15:07

me. And now I

15:09

realize that by not telling Bob

15:11

thinking I was being so nice,

15:14

I'm having to fire him as a result of

15:16

it. Not so nice after all. But

15:19

it was too late to save Bob. Even

15:21

Bob at this point agreed he should go

15:23

because his reputation on the team was

15:25

just shot. All I could

15:27

do in the moment was make myself a

15:29

very solemn promise that I would never make

15:32

that mistake again and that I would do

15:34

everything in my power to help other people

15:36

making that mistake because we all do it. There

15:39

was one time a guy came up

15:41

to me after I'd given a talk and

15:43

he said, yeah, you know, I got married

15:46

and my wife tended to clank her

15:48

teeth with her spoon when we were

15:50

eating cereal in the morning and it

15:52

bugs me. I didn't want

15:54

to say anything. And Like five years later, she

15:57

clanked her teeth with her spoon. I'm like, I

15:59

need a divorce. I'm sure that with other

16:01

stuff going on but it happened. We.

16:03

Do this in all aspects of our allies. I

16:05

have a similar one with my wife and my

16:07

user lipstick. Get this food Office Moon Knight, your

16:09

messages, your teeth chip all the time. but she

16:11

told her at least I did I. It's funny

16:14

because I think sometimes I go down one bath

16:16

maybe a my manager had I go down there

16:18

ruinous empathy path of Knox's aggression maybe feels a

16:20

lot. Sometimes I'm in a boy or a mike.

16:22

when someone doing great even at home I go

16:24

up. My wife's is written yeah I noticed three

16:26

things. like all I want to tell you the

16:28

three things that it seems rude and I you

16:30

know I love you so you know it's coming

16:32

from a good player. That whole time the sandwich

16:34

or something or as I got me out

16:36

of deliver bad information is like Sam nice something

16:39

to improve Something nice again. we want to

16:41

give people the feedback. We. Want to

16:43

make sure they know he care even if

16:45

we think they do. You Deliver! It a

16:47

couple of things I would say: Radical

16:49

Cantor's not about nit picking. A good

16:51

friend of mine. she got married on

16:53

this island with a very weak septic

16:55

system. To. They were signs. I were

16:57

all the toilets. It's it's yellow. let it

17:00

mellow as it's brown. Flush it down. Send

17:02

her on. boasted up and he said caesar

17:04

words to stay married by you only need

17:06

to say something as really matters. Something really

17:09

bothering you a lot, even if it's a

17:11

small thing by all means. Say it. but

17:13

it's It's a little saying and you can

17:16

let it go. I think it's fine. To

17:18

let some stuff got. So let's imagine

17:20

if decided it's brown You want

17:22

to say the thank you? Wanna

17:24

Start out by making sure that

17:26

your soliciting see back more than

17:28

you're giving at. You. Don't want to

17:30

dish it out until you prove the you can take it.

17:33

You. Also want to make sure that you

17:35

understand the other. Person's perspective.

17:37

I think sometimes especially men were

17:39

and relationships that we've been an

17:41

for decades it's easy to sink.

17:43

You already know everything this person

17:45

thanks but we never do. You

17:48

can never be married long enough

17:50

to really thrilling as someone that

17:52

and what they think all the

17:54

time. Am. i allowed to curse

17:56

on your podcast i mean there's a

17:58

warning for anyone with Yeah, in

18:00

a car with their children. Nobody

18:02

likes a shit sandwich. If you say,

18:04

oh, Kim, I love your bookshelf, I

18:06

hate your book, but I like your

18:09

orange hoodie, that doesn't make me feel

18:11

any better. So you want to make

18:13

sure that you're focused on the good

18:15

stuff, but in a way that is

18:17

specific and sincere. So you

18:19

do want to give more praise than

18:22

criticism, for sure. So the next step

18:24

in the radical canter of operations after

18:26

soliciting feedback is giving praise. But

18:29

if it's something you would say to your

18:31

dog, it's not good praise. Oh,

18:33

good job. That doesn't really help anybody. So

18:35

you want to make sure that

18:38

you're sort of using hate acronyms. I

18:40

was just talking to Bob Sutton, who

18:42

wrote the No Asshole Rule, and he

18:44

talks about jargon monoxide. So if this

18:46

sounds like jargon monoxide, I apologize.

18:50

But it's useful sometimes to have an acronym to

18:52

remember in the moment. When I'm

18:54

thinking about praise, I try

18:56

to think about core. Context,

18:59

observation, result, next step. Context,

19:01

like in the meeting, observation,

19:03

when you argued both sides

19:05

of the case, results, you

19:07

earned credibility, next step, do

19:09

more of that. So that's what I mean by core. Don't

19:11

just say, good job. Make sure

19:13

you're telling the person specifically what

19:16

was good and what they could do more of. The

19:18

purpose of praise is to let them know what to do

19:20

more of. In fact, if you think

19:22

about radical canters helping

19:24

someone else scratch an itch on an unreachable

19:27

spot in your back, you got to say,

19:29

yeah, that's good or no, that's not good.

19:31

And you need to be able to say

19:33

both. So praise is really important. This

19:36

is a little criticism. You want to give someone

19:38

who you love and who knows that you love

19:40

them. Hopefully, you know them well

19:42

enough to know how things land for them. So

19:44

you want to go in, make sure that you're

19:46

humble, that you're not sure you're right. To me,

19:49

I call it candor and not the truth. Because

19:51

if I go to you, Chris, and I say,

19:53

I'm going to tell you the truth. I'm kind

19:55

of implying, I've got a pipeline to God. And

19:57

you don't know, beep from shine all light. To

20:00

me, candor implies here's how I

20:02

understand the situation. I'm also really

20:04

curious to know how you understand the

20:06

situation. You want to be humble. You

20:09

want to state your intention to

20:11

be helpful. I think sometimes when

20:13

people receive criticism, they

20:15

receive it as though you're trying to be dominant

20:17

or show you're smarter than they are. And so

20:20

you want to make sure that you're getting on

20:22

the same side of the table with a person.

20:24

I can tell you really care about this dish

20:26

you're cooking for this dinner party and I have

20:29

an idea that I think will make it even

20:31

better or whatever it is, you know, state your

20:33

intention to be helpful. You

20:35

want to do it right away. You

20:38

don't want to hold on to stuff,

20:40

especially if it's critical feedback. I

20:42

think we've all had relationships where someone

20:44

told us about something that we did

20:46

six months ago that really

20:48

upset them and you're like, you've been holding

20:51

on to that this whole time? Like, why

20:53

didn't you tell me six months ago? And

20:55

if you're like so angry that you don't

20:57

think you can say it right, you can

20:59

delay but usually when I say in my

21:01

mind, oh, I'm going to

21:03

wait for the right moment. What I'm really

21:06

telling myself is I'm never going to say

21:08

that thing. So you want to say it

21:10

right away in general. You also want to

21:12

make sure that it's possible you're having this

21:14

conversation in person. It's not possible

21:16

you want to have a conversation on the phone.

21:19

Do not send an email. Do not send

21:21

a text. Slack is

21:23

a radical candor train wreck waiting

21:26

to happen. You don't

21:28

want to criticize people in front of

21:30

other people and in writing. And

21:33

the reason why I say have a

21:35

phone call or an in-person conversation is

21:38

because a big part of success is

21:40

gauging how it's landing. And if you

21:42

broadcast it with a text message, you

21:44

have no idea how your words are landing for

21:46

the other person. And if it's praise, of

21:48

course, do it in public. You got

21:51

to criticize in private. If I

21:53

criticize you publicly, you're likely

21:55

to go into fight or flight mode. And

21:57

then you physically cannot hear what I'm saying.

21:59

Once again, I'm wasting my breath. Don't

22:02

do that. And also use

22:04

core with criticism, context, observation,

22:06

result, next step. I

22:09

had a boss who told me in

22:11

the meeting, that's the context. When you

22:13

said, I'm every third word, that's the

22:15

observation. The result, it made

22:17

you sound stupid. Go visit this

22:20

speech coach. There's a world

22:22

of difference between saying in the meeting when you

22:24

said, I'm every third word, it made you sound

22:26

stupid. Here's the speech coach you can visit.

22:29

There's a world of difference between saying that and

22:31

saying, oh Kim, you're just too stupid to do

22:33

this job. That would be awful.

22:35

And a lot of people object to the

22:37

use of the word stupid, which is some

22:39

criticism I've gotten about that story. And so

22:41

maybe it's better to say, you lost

22:44

credibility. In my case, that was the

22:46

word that really got my attention. And

22:49

my boss knew me well enough to know that

22:51

it wasn't going to crush me, but it wasn't

22:53

going to get my attention. Today's

22:56

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Again, that's allthehacks.com/G-E-L-T. I'm

25:43

gonna back up a little because you said you

25:45

want to start by soliciting feedback. Are there

25:47

easy ways to do that? I feel like sometimes

25:51

even when I'm recording an episode at the end, I'm

25:53

like, oh, do you have any feedback? And people are

25:55

like, nope, that was great. What tips do you have

25:57

when people are not easily able to give good feedback?

26:00

Nobody is easily. I mean, except your

26:02

teenage children. If you have a teenager,

26:04

they're really good at this. This is

26:06

a service they offer with alacrity. But

26:09

other people are very reluctant to give you

26:11

feedback. I have found if I say,

26:13

do you have any feedback for me, the

26:16

answer is invariably, oh no, everything's

26:18

fine. So I have four

26:20

bits of advice for soliciting feedback. The

26:23

first is you want to ask

26:25

the question in a way that sounds like

26:27

you. So I'm going to tell you the

26:29

question that I like to ask, but do not write

26:32

it down. Because if you sound like Kim Scott and

26:34

not like yourself, the other person is not going to believe

26:36

you want the answer. So the question

26:38

I like to ask is, what

26:40

could I do or stop doing that would make it

26:43

easier to get along with me? I've been

26:45

married since 2007, so for a while. But

26:48

I still occasionally ask my husband some version

26:50

that, you know, what could I do? What

26:53

could I have done or not done in that

26:55

situation so that you wouldn't be so mad right

26:57

now? My goal is obviously not

26:59

to make you mad. But don't write down that question.

27:01

If those are not the words you would use, the

27:03

other person is going to be like, did you just

27:05

listen to some podcast? In fact,

27:07

I was working with Christa Quarles when she

27:09

was the CEO of Open Table and she

27:12

said, Kim, I could never imagine

27:14

your words coming out my mouth. She said, the question

27:16

I like to ask is, tell me why I'm wrong.

27:19

Okay, that's fine too. That's

27:21

what worked for her. There were

27:23

a couple of people in Christa's life that

27:25

that question didn't work for. Because

27:28

it seemed too aggressive to them and it kind

27:30

of shut them down. So she had to adjust.

27:33

Being authentic doesn't mean ignoring the

27:35

impact you're having on other people.

27:37

You can say the same thing to one

27:40

person and it's going to be awesome with

27:42

that person. The exact same thing to somebody

27:44

else. They're either not going to hear what

27:46

you said because you weren't out far enough

27:49

on the challenge directly dimension or

27:51

they'll be crushed by it because you said

27:53

it in a way that you meant as

27:55

funny, but they didn't find funny at all. So

27:57

you got to adjust for the other person. is

28:00

think about your question very

28:03

consciously. Have a go-to question that you

28:05

usually ask and then adjust it for

28:07

whom you're asking it up. And the

28:09

other thing about the question is that

28:12

it shouldn't be able to be answered

28:14

with a yes or a no. What

28:16

could I do or stop doing that would

28:19

make it easier to work with

28:21

me, not is there anything? And in

28:23

fact, if you read the book, you'll notice I

28:25

wrote, is there anything? And a

28:27

reader gave me some feedback. Great thing about

28:30

radical writing about feedback is you're going to

28:32

get a lot of it and said it's

28:34

better to ask what and I realized that

28:36

is a good point. So there you go.

28:38

So think about how you're going to ask.

28:40

No matter how good your question is, the

28:43

other person doesn't want to answer it. They're

28:45

still going to feel uncomfortable and

28:48

the only way out is through. You've

28:50

just got to embrace the discomfort. That's

28:52

the second step, embrace the discomfort.

28:54

Really simple technique here, close

28:57

your mouth and count to six. We

29:05

made it to six. You're the first

29:07

person who didn't jump in and say

29:10

something. It's so hard. It

29:12

is really hard. Six seconds is a really

29:14

long time. If you can manage to stay

29:16

silent for six seconds and the other person

29:19

is like smiling at you and then they're

29:21

kind of wincing at you, like just stay

29:23

silent, they'll probably say something. Now you've dragged

29:27

this poor soul out on

29:29

a conversational limb they never wanted

29:31

to go on. It's

29:34

crucial that you take the third step, which

29:36

is to listen with the intent to understand,

29:38

not to respond.

29:41

Even though you just solicited feedback, you're probably going

29:43

to feel a little bit defensive when you get

29:45

some and that doesn't mean you're a lesser mortal

29:48

or that you're shut down the feedback. It just

29:50

means you're human and that's all part of this.

29:53

So you want to think about maybe

29:55

here's a tactic for this third step,

29:57

which is asking a follow-up question.

30:00

So for example, my daughter said

30:02

to me at breakfast one time, mom,

30:05

I wish you weren't the radical candor lady.

30:07

And immediately this wave of parental guilt washed

30:09

over me. I said, I'm spending too much

30:11

time at work. She wants more time with

30:14

me. And then I thought, well,

30:16

I should take my own advice here, ask a

30:18

follow-up question. So I said, well, who

30:20

do you wish I were? And

30:22

she said, I wish you were

30:24

the lady who minded her own business. So

30:27

it wasn't very good. I could spend a little more time at work

30:30

as far as she was concerned. You want to make sure that you're really

30:32

open to whatever it

30:34

is the person is saying and that you

30:36

have some kind of technique for

30:39

managing your own defensiveness when you

30:41

get it. Now the fourth step.

30:43

So first was have a go-to

30:45

question. Second was embrace the discomfort.

30:48

Third was listen with the intent

30:50

to understand, not to respond. The

30:52

fourth thing you need to keep in mind is that you've

30:54

got to reward the candor because

30:56

when someone gives you critical feedback,

30:59

they take a big risk no

31:01

matter who they are in your life. If

31:03

you're gonna make a risky investment, you

31:05

expect a big return. You can think

31:08

about critical feedback as a very risky

31:10

investment from that other person. And if

31:12

you do not reward them richly, they

31:15

are never gonna give you feedback again. You

31:18

gotta make sure that if you agree with

31:20

the feedback that you don't just say thank

31:22

you, but that you take the next step

31:24

and fix the problem. And then

31:26

tell them that you fixed the problem that they brought to

31:28

your attention. What do you

31:30

do though if you disagree with the feedback? This is

31:32

tricky because you just solicited feedback. They

31:34

told you you're not defensive, but you

31:37

actually think they're wrong. So

31:39

in that situation, what I recommend doing

31:42

is taking a look at what they said and

31:44

what you think and finding that five or 10%,

31:47

there's some little bit of overlap between what they said

31:49

and what you think that you can agree with. And

31:52

give voice to that just to demonstrate

31:54

that you're not instinctively shut down the

31:56

feedback and to make your listening tangible.

31:59

And then. And what you want to do next is you

32:01

want to say, so I agree with that.

32:03

As for the rest, I want to think about it and get

32:05

back to you. And then you

32:07

must get back to them and you got

32:10

to offer them a respectful explanation of why

32:12

you disagree. We kind of

32:14

have this bad instinct about disagreement. We

32:16

think that a disagreement is going to

32:18

pose a risk to our relationship. Actually

32:21

many of my best relationships

32:23

both in my personal life

32:25

and at work started with

32:27

a really respectful disagreement. I

32:30

have found that what really

32:32

hurts a relationship is unspoken

32:35

disagreement because that's where resentment builds

32:37

up, it builds up and then it explodes

32:39

like a dirty mom all over

32:41

your relationship. So talk to them, explain

32:43

why you disagree, let them try to

32:45

persuade you that you're wrong. You can't

32:48

argue endlessly. At some point you got

32:50

to listen, challenge, commit. Don't skip the

32:52

listen and challenge part before you get

32:54

to some sort of commitment. I

32:57

like finding the overlap because I can imagine

32:59

a conversation between a couple where someone's like,

33:01

you never listened to me. Well, I do

33:03

but it's probably better to say, well, you

33:05

know what? I was distracted this afternoon. I'm

33:07

going to acknowledge that there was some overlap

33:10

in what you think and how I feel

33:12

but I do listen to you sometimes and

33:14

can kind of continue down that path. Anytime

33:17

somebody says never, there's some questions.

33:19

There's absolute rules and I say this to

33:21

my kids all the time. Let's say I'm

33:24

delivering feedback and it's very clear to me

33:26

that the other person completely disagrees. You

33:28

know, there's that Jerry McGuire movie, that scene

33:30

where he's yelling, you think we're arguing and

33:33

I think we're finally talking. One of the

33:35

things that I have found disarming is to

33:37

say, I can tell you totally disagree with

33:39

me. Tell me why and

33:41

let them disagree with you and try to

33:44

understand why they disagree with you.

33:47

Sometimes it happens that the person is

33:49

disagreeing with you in a way that's

33:51

obnoxious like they're yelling at you or

33:53

something. That is your

33:55

cue to move up or make care

33:57

personally dimension but it's kind of hard

33:59

to care personally. about someone who's yelling

34:01

at you. And so, it's

34:03

really useful in that moment to

34:06

try to get curious, not furious. Try

34:08

to really understand why the person

34:10

thinks what they think. Not

34:13

necessarily because you're going to agree with

34:15

it, but because it's interesting to understand

34:18

why. I'm starting to think about

34:20

various people I know and conversations I've had. And I

34:22

have a bunch of friends in Israel who seem to

34:24

be very direct and that's comfortable. And

34:26

we've spent some time in Japan

34:28

and it's very different. How do

34:30

you start to think about using

34:32

language and skill set with people

34:34

where maybe culturally they're not ready

34:37

for it or maybe culturally they're

34:39

so ready for it, it's kind

34:41

of uncomfortable for you. At

34:43

one point I was managing teams

34:45

all over the world. And believe

34:47

me, radical candor in Israel or

34:49

in the Netherlands sounds very different

34:51

from radical candor in Japan. In

34:54

fact, with the team in Japan, I

34:56

called it polite persistence. Polite

34:59

was how they liked to show that

35:01

they cared personally and persistence was an

35:03

easier way for them to think of

35:05

challenge directly. Once I had

35:07

reframed it for them in that way, then

35:10

believe me, they were relentlessly

35:12

politely persistent. I heard a

35:14

lot from them and learned a lot and

35:16

we improved the product as a result of

35:19

their polite persistence. But if I

35:21

had gone to the Netherlands or to

35:23

Israel and said, be politely persistent, they

35:26

would have interpreted that as me saying,

35:28

be manipulatively insincere.

35:31

Challenging directly was really a sign of

35:33

respect in those cultures. I think it

35:36

is useful to remember

35:38

that radical candor gets measured not

35:41

at the speaker's mouth but at the listener's ear.

35:43

And that means that even though if

35:45

you abstract up enough, radical candor is

35:48

about love and truth at the same

35:50

time. And those are pretty universal human

35:52

values. Not everybody, but most

35:54

of us honor love and truth. The

35:56

way that we express love and truth

35:58

is culturally relevant. And so,

36:00

you've got to adjust for the culture

36:03

where you're operating, but you also have

36:05

to adjust for the individual to whom

36:07

you're speaking. Like if you're being radically

36:09

candid with me, I'm

36:11

kind of stubborn and I'm not always the

36:13

best listener. So, you're probably going to have

36:15

to attend more to the challenge directly dimension

36:18

of radical candor because I might just brush you

36:20

off. You may have to say it

36:22

again more clearly. I'm aware of this

36:24

feedback and I'm working on it. If you're

36:26

managing my brother who is

36:28

a great listener and probably more

36:30

sensitive than I am, you're going

36:33

to need to attend more to

36:35

the care personally dimension. You don't

36:37

need to go as far out on the

36:39

challenge directly dimension. So, sort of being

36:41

aware of which vector to choose as

36:43

you move forward in these conversations with different

36:45

people and in different cultures. On the note

36:48

of different cultures, I have an assistant who

36:50

lives in Sri Lanka and we overlap for

36:52

a few hours a day. I've

36:54

gotten two pieces of feedback from you.

36:56

One, address things quickly and two, don't

36:59

do them asynchronously. Do them synchronously. Yes.

37:01

What about when someone's sleeping and I want to get

37:03

them feedback before they work but I'm going to be

37:05

asleep or just generally in a

37:08

lot of work scenarios now where distributed

37:10

people work different times, different days. Are

37:12

there any ways to be more radically

37:15

candor when you're writing a private Slack

37:17

message or an email? Surely, the answer

37:19

can't always be to get on the

37:21

phone or video to give feedback. I

37:25

recommend finding time to get

37:27

on the phone. It always feels

37:29

more efficient to just fire off the

37:31

message and it also feels easier because

37:33

then you don't have to gauge how

37:35

it landed because you don't have to

37:37

know, you just fire it off. If

37:40

you think about the number of times

37:42

though when you sent someone an email

37:44

or a text and they

37:46

totally misinterpreted what you were trying to say,

37:48

if you were having a synchronous conversation with

37:51

them, you could have fixed it in the

37:53

moment. Don't say read that

37:55

and they're pissed off for 12

37:57

hours before they talk to you. it's

38:00

exploded and it takes way more time

38:02

actually to undo the damage. We've all

38:04

seen this happen with email and text

38:07

and Slack. And so, I

38:09

really think that it's worth if

38:11

you notice something in a meeting and you

38:14

know that you only overlap for another hour, I would say, send

38:20

the person a text and say,

38:22

can we have a two-minute conversation?

38:24

Most radical candor conversations literally are

38:27

two minutes. It's fast. If you

38:29

can gauge how what you're saying

38:31

is landing, like nine times

38:33

out of ten, the person will just say, oh, thank you

38:36

for pointing it out and you'll be like, I probably could

38:38

have sent an email. But for that

38:40

one time out of ten where you

38:42

really offended someone and done a lot

38:44

of damage to a relationship, you can

38:47

fix it usually in the two minutes

38:49

if you're actually speaking to them synchronously.

38:51

There's a lot of evidence that shows

38:53

that there may be more noise than

38:56

signal in facial expressions and body language

38:58

over video. And so,

39:00

I recommend the phone,

39:02

not another Zoom call actually, just get

39:04

on the phone because then you're listening

39:07

to the words the person is saying

39:09

and you're not misinterpreting their

39:11

facial expression or body language. For

39:14

example, if I get really

39:17

angry, I'm more likely to tear

39:19

up than to yell. But you may think

39:21

I'm sad, but I am not sad. I'm

39:23

really mad. And if we're just talking on

39:26

the phone, that whole round trip doesn't even

39:28

have to happen because you don't have to

39:30

notice facial expression or body language.

39:32

Even if you're going to have a conversation

39:34

in person, I recommend taking

39:37

a walk together instead of sitting

39:39

across from the other person at

39:41

a table or something. There's something

39:43

psychologically about walking in the same direction

39:45

that's very useful. There's also a

39:47

lot of evidence that shows we think

39:49

better when we're moving our bodies

39:51

instead of just sitting there. And

39:54

you're not staring at the other

39:56

person misinterpreting their facial expressions and

39:59

body language. language, this is very

40:01

mammalian but when a mammal stares another

40:03

in the eye, that can be a

40:05

sign to attack and so walking in

40:07

the same direction can sometimes be a little

40:09

more effective. If I'm just sitting

40:11

at my desk on the phone, I feel like

40:14

I have to be doing something, I can't just

40:16

be on the phone, it's very hard but if

40:18

I'm just walking, now it checks the box in

40:20

my mind that now I'm doing a thing and

40:22

talking and it's clear but it's nowhere near as

40:25

distracting as reading emails or anything like that. Exactly,

40:28

as soon as you're doing something, if

40:30

you're sitting at your desk, there's some

40:32

notification no matter how good you are

40:34

about turning all your notifications off,

40:36

some notification is going to come

40:39

along and distract you. And what do

40:41

you think about calling out the kind of

40:43

care personally side of, hey, I noticed the

40:45

work you've been doing lately hasn't been up

40:47

to par, I'm telling you this

40:49

because I believe in you at this company

40:51

and I think that I've seen work that

40:53

shows that you can do it, calling it

40:56

out in the feedback. 100%,

40:58

I think that that's part of stating your

41:00

intention to be helpful. Humble and

41:02

helpful are the most important parts of this and

41:05

saying, I can tell you really care about

41:07

this project, that's why I want to tell

41:09

you this thing is hugely

41:11

important. And telling the person you believe

41:13

in them, that never goes awry unless

41:15

you're lying and you don't believe in it

41:18

but that's all I want to tell you. Yeah, of course, you have to believe it.

41:21

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44:03

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consider supporting those who support us. So

44:20

you mentioned earlier that one

44:22

of the fun parts of writing a book

44:24

about radical candor is that you get a

44:26

lot of feedback. I first came across your

44:28

work five, six years ago when I was

44:30

working at a company managing a team. What's

44:33

changed, right? I think the world's changed a bit.

44:35

What kind of feedback have you gotten? Where do

44:37

you take some of these lessons from now? So

44:40

hands down, the best feedback I

44:42

got about radical candor happened shortly

44:44

after the book came out. I

44:47

was at a tech company in San Francisco

44:49

giving a radical candor talk and the CEO

44:51

of that company had been a colleague of

44:53

mine for the better part of a decade

44:56

and she's a person who I like and

44:58

respect enormously and she's one of too few

45:01

black women CEOs in tech. And

45:03

when I finished giving the presentation, she pulled me

45:05

aside and she said, Kim, I'm really excited to

45:07

roll out radical candor. I think it's going to

45:09

help me build the kind of culture that I

45:11

want, but I got to tell

45:13

you, it's much harder for me to roll it

45:15

out than it is for you. She went on

45:18

to explain to me that as soon as she

45:20

would give anyone even the most gentle, compassionate criticism,

45:23

she would get swined with the angry black

45:25

woman stereotype. And I knew this was true.

45:27

As soon as she said it to me,

45:29

I realized four things

45:31

at the same time. The first

45:33

was that I had not been

45:35

a colleague that I imagined myself

45:37

to be. I had failed

45:40

even to notice the extent to which

45:42

she had to show up unfailingly cheerful

45:44

and pleasant in every meeting we

45:46

had ever been in together, even though she had

45:48

what to be pissed off about as we all

45:50

do at work in six and a half years.

45:52

She was not as free as I was to

45:54

say and I was not as free as my

45:56

husband. So I had failed to be an upstander

45:58

really to her. The second thing

46:00

that I realized was that

46:03

not only had I been in denial about

46:05

what was happening to her, I had been

46:07

even deeper in denial about the things that

46:09

had happened to me as a woman in

46:11

tech. And hard for the

46:13

author of a book called Radical Canner to admit

46:15

that I had been in denial. But

46:18

I had pretended throughout most of my career

46:20

that a whole host of things were not

46:22

happening that were intact happening. I think the

46:24

reason I had been in denial is that

46:26

I hated to think of myself or of

46:28

my colleague as a victim because

46:30

we have such a strange attitude towards that in

46:32

our society. Even less than wanting to think of

46:35

myself as a victim that I want to think

46:37

of myself as a culprit. The third

46:39

thing that I realized was that I

46:41

had been even deeper in denial about

46:43

the times in my career and in

46:46

my life when I had been biased

46:48

or said something or done something that

46:50

was prejudiced or bullied someone. And

46:53

we all play those roles. Sometimes

46:55

we're the person who observed the thing.

46:57

Sometimes we're the silent bystander when we

47:00

want to be the upstander. Sometimes

47:03

we're the person to whom it happened. And other

47:05

times we're the person who did the thing. Even

47:07

though I never intended, I never woke up and

47:09

I don't think many people really do. Wake up

47:11

and say, ah, I want to be biased today.

47:14

I want to be prejudiced today. I want to

47:16

bully someone today. That's not usually

47:18

what causes those things to happen. And

47:20

then the fourth thing I realized was that as a leader, I

47:23

imagined I had created these workplaces

47:25

that were sort of like these

47:27

BS free zones. But because

47:29

I was refusing to notice bias, prejudice and

47:31

bullying that was happening on my teams, I

47:33

hadn't built the kind of culture that I

47:35

wanted to build. So all of

47:37

those realizations prompted me to

47:40

write my next book, Radical Respect. There's been

47:42

a lot written about this stuff, a lot

47:44

more written about it since I started writing

47:46

that book than when I began writing that

47:48

book. But we haven't solved these

47:50

problems by a long stretch. So hopefully

47:52

Radical Respect will help people make things

47:55

a little better. I know it's not

47:57

out yet, so people can definitely pre-order. But what are

47:59

some of the... things we can start to do

48:01

for people who are like, okay, give me

48:03

a little bit. I think one

48:05

of the things that is really helpful

48:07

is to distinguish between bias, prejudice and

48:09

bullying because there's three very different things

48:11

but I think we tend to conflate

48:14

them. I'm going to leave you

48:16

with super simple definitions. Bias

48:18

is just not meaning it. So that's my

48:20

definition, not meaning it. And it's

48:22

usually unconscious when we stop and think

48:24

about the implications of what we just

48:26

said or did. That's not what we

48:28

really consciously believe but often we're not aware

48:31

of what's going on in our own brains. Kahneman's

48:34

book, Sinking Fast and Slow is really good

48:36

on this. So that's bias. Prejudice,

48:38

on the other hand, is very different. It's

48:40

meaning it. So not meaning it,

48:42

meaning it. Prejudice is usually

48:45

a very consciously held belief

48:47

reflecting an unfair stereotype. And

48:49

bullying, on the other hand, there's no belief

48:52

conscious or unconscious really going on. It's

48:54

just trying to be mean, not meaning it, meaning

48:57

it, being mean. What do you do if

48:59

it's bias? And I think this is really

49:01

important because the right response to bias is

49:03

just to hold up a mirror, to point

49:05

it out to the other person and to

49:07

do it in a way that is supportive.

49:09

You're not trying to punish someone for something

49:11

they're unconscious of. You're just trying to make

49:13

them aware. One of the things that I

49:15

recommend is with the people who

49:17

you're close with either in your personal life

49:19

or at work, I come up

49:21

with some kind of shared vocabulary. So with

49:24

the people who I work most closely with,

49:26

we all have these little purple flags. And

49:28

we'll wave a purple flag if we're on

49:30

Zoom or we'll say purple flag on the

49:33

phone. And that gives the other person the

49:35

opportunity to either say, ah, thank

49:37

you, I get it. I'm working on not saying

49:39

that thing. Or to say,

49:42

thank you for pointing it out, but I don't get

49:44

it. And learning how to say

49:46

that thank you for pointing it out, I

49:48

don't get it, is really hard because I

49:50

don't know about you. So when someone points

49:52

out to me that I've said or done

49:54

something biased, I feel deeply and profoundly ashamed.

49:57

For example, I was working with a friend of mine who

49:59

was a lawyer. with a team helping folks

50:01

roll these ideas out. And I

50:03

said in a meeting, I am

50:06

a slave to my calendar. And someone said,

50:08

oh, do we really need a slavery metaphor

50:10

there? And no, we did not need a

50:13

slavery metaphor there. And one

50:15

of the people on the team is black

50:17

and it especially was offensive to

50:19

her. It's easy enough for me to change

50:21

the word. So she waved a purple flag

50:24

and I was like, I got it immediately.

50:26

Those are the kinds of things where

50:28

I would rather know than not know.

50:31

And that's why I find like disrupting

50:33

the bias or whatever, the slightly offensive

50:35

thing or maybe even extremely offensive thing

50:37

you just said is so

50:39

useful. One of the problems

50:41

that a lot of teams have told me

50:43

that they had with unconscious bias training is

50:46

that it felt a little bit like

50:48

boiling the ocean. There's so many different

50:51

examples of unconscious bias that

50:53

may or may not be relevant to a group

50:56

of people working together. If we can just work

50:58

on the ones that the people in the room

51:00

are experiencing, that's a great next step. Disrupting

51:03

the specific biases is really

51:05

useful. So why not be

51:07

aware of them and help each other

51:09

to be aware of them? A couple things

51:12

come to mind. But one is, especially when I

51:14

was working at a startup, it feels like right

51:16

now, I'm thinking, okay, do we need flags?

51:18

Like how do we run the meeting? What kind of

51:20

things do I need to make sure I do? At

51:22

some point, does this get in the way of actually

51:24

doing the work or is it really

51:26

a way to make doing the work more efficient

51:29

as part of understanding? I think it's

51:31

way more efficient to get the elephant out

51:33

of the room than to leave the elephant

51:35

in the room. Usually, if

51:37

someone is saying or doing something that

51:39

is biased, it is

51:41

getting in the way of a

51:43

team's ability to work well together.

51:46

I'll give you an example. I had this guy who I had

51:49

just hired him. This is when I was

51:51

working at Google. And he

51:53

referred to the women on his team as

51:55

girls. I knew that they

51:58

found it offensive. It bugs me. when

52:00

people refer to men as men and women

52:02

as girls. But I didn't say anything to

52:04

him. I was his boss and it was

52:06

my job to say something to him but I didn't because

52:08

I was busy, we were

52:10

stressed, it was a new relationship and

52:13

then he went to meet with my

52:15

boss who was Sheryl Sandberg. He referred

52:17

to the women on his team as

52:19

girls and she did

52:22

not hesitate to tell him. He

52:25

came into my office afterwards and I was

52:27

sitting there with two other people on my

52:29

team, buzzer than men, who I had worked

52:31

with at a previous startup that I had

52:33

done. So, I had known them and I

52:35

had warned them not to call women

52:37

girls. He came in and he was kind

52:39

of pale and he was like, this thing

52:42

just happened and instead of doing what

52:44

I should have done which is own the fact that I

52:46

had failed him as his boss and what I should have

52:48

said is, I'm sorry, I should have told you, it was

52:50

my job to tell you and I didn't. Instead,

52:53

I kind of burst out laughing and I

52:55

turned to these other two guys and I

52:57

was like, see, aren't you glad I told

52:59

you because we had had this argument before

53:01

and they started laughing and he's like the

53:03

new guy on the team. He said, why

53:05

in the world did you not tell me

53:08

and I did what has been done to

53:10

me? Oh, it's no big deal, don't worry

53:12

about it and to his credit, he said,

53:14

look, I would say when you meet your

53:16

boss's boss for the first time, she spends

53:18

40 minutes reaming you out

53:21

for a word. It is

53:24

a big deal. Like you should have told me, I

53:26

would have not used that word if you had given

53:28

me a heads up. And so that was an example

53:30

of me as a leader failing to disrupt

53:32

someone's biased language in a way that was

53:34

hurtful to him. It was my job

53:36

to tell him and I failed to do

53:39

my job. And I think that's why if

53:41

we go back to the story that prompted

53:43

me to write this book, it's so useful

53:45

to think about the different roles that we

53:47

have because like if he had called me

53:49

a girl and I found it offensive and

53:51

I wasn't his boss, I could

53:53

choose to remain silent if I wanted to.

53:56

But because I was his boss, I had

53:58

more obligation to him to tell. him.

54:00

So I think that is helpful

54:02

to think about as well. And what

54:05

advice would you give to the person who...

54:07

Let's assume it's biased because it's not intentional,

54:09

who is in a situation like you've been,

54:11

made a comment, people are offended, you didn't

54:13

mean it. What's the right way to handle

54:15

that situation? I've met people whose perspective is

54:17

like, this is not a big deal, let's

54:20

move on. But the reality is, clearly it

54:22

was a big deal to someone else. Yeah.

54:25

And it's gonna make the relationship you have with

54:27

that person not great if you can't resolve it.

54:29

How do you kind of address that appropriately and

54:31

be productive? I had a boss once

54:34

who said, every single person on

54:36

this planet has a red

54:38

word. What he meant by the red word

54:41

is, if you use that word with that

54:43

person, they're not gonna hear another word that

54:45

you say. And so one

54:47

of the things that I tell

54:49

people is to identify what's your

54:52

red word. So for example, I

54:54

was working with a group of

54:56

investment bankers. People tend to have

54:58

an unconscious or maybe conscious bias

55:00

about investment makers that they're all

55:02

assholes. And so as soon as you

55:04

said the word asshole, like that was a red

55:06

word to these guys. And so I was careful

55:08

not to use that word with those guys, even

55:10

though I love the word asshole. But if my

55:13

goal is to communicate with those guys, I wasn't

55:15

gonna use the word asshole. I

55:17

think it's useful to think about, for me, calling

55:19

me a girl is kind of a red word.

55:21

I don't know why it bugs me so much,

55:23

but it does. So just please don't do it.

55:25

Sometimes I'll be working with somebody and I'll say

55:27

that and they'll be like, so and so doesn't

55:30

mind when I call her a girl. And I'm

55:32

like, well, you're talking to me right now, not

55:34

to so. I think some

55:36

of this is like remembering that

55:38

good communication gets measured not at

55:40

the speaker's mouth, but at the

55:42

listener's ear. I will also say

55:44

that it's useful to think about

55:47

what happens when someone else points out

55:49

bias. Because I don't know about you,

55:51

but when someone points out to me

55:53

that I said or done something that's

55:55

biased, I feel ashamed. And

55:57

when I feel ashamed, I go into

55:59

like, fireflies. mode. I can tell you

56:01

in my body where I feel it. I

56:03

feel a tingling in the backs of my

56:06

knees. It's the same feeling

56:08

that I get my children walk too close

56:10

to the edge of a precipice and I'm

56:12

afraid they're going to fall. Like it is

56:14

a real primal fear response. When we're in

56:16

that kind of shame brain, we rarely respond

56:18

at our best. And so one of the

56:21

things that I've tried to teach myself to

56:23

do and that I try to teach people

56:25

who I'm working with to do is to

56:27

figure out what can you do to move

56:29

through that shame and re-engage your executive

56:31

function. Sometimes I find it's useful

56:33

just to have this talk track

56:36

in my mind. Thank you for pointing

56:38

it out. That allows me to buy

56:40

a little bit of time like breathe

56:42

a couple of times and then either

56:44

I get it, I'm working on not

56:46

saying it again but point it out

56:48

if I fail again. And that's an

56:50

important point also. I think that very

56:52

often when we're trying to change deeply

56:54

ingrained words or patterns of speech, it

56:56

takes a while. And so we have

56:58

to be patient with ourselves but

57:00

also persistent. So thank you for pointing it out. I'm

57:02

working on it. Please tell me if I do it again. Or

57:06

the second thing, thank you for pointing it

57:08

out. I don't know what I did wrong

57:10

as in the case of can we have

57:12

lunch. Again, that's a really hard place to

57:14

be. I'm ashamed because I've upset someone which

57:16

wasn't my intention and I'm ashamed because I'm

57:19

ignorant which I hate to think of myself

57:21

as. Learning how to say, can

57:23

you explain it to me after the meeting?

57:26

And the reason why I say after the meeting goes back

57:28

to what you were saying. I'm going to start out, I'm

57:30

busy, I don't have time to have a long conversation. The

57:33

bias disruption needs to be really fast

57:35

like just purple flag. And then if

57:37

I don't get it, we can talk

57:39

after the meeting not in the meeting so

57:41

that we're disrupting the bias but not every

57:44

single meeting we ever have together, every single

57:46

conversation. My team right now

57:48

happens to be my wife and my

57:50

assistant. So it's going to blur the

57:52

lines which actually comes back to One

57:55

topic that before we wrap, I wanted

57:57

to ask, are there ways you run

57:59

whether it's. Meetings or conversations are

58:01

planning, sessions with the family, with your

58:03

husband and our conversations with your children.

58:05

That might be a little bit different

58:08

but embrace some of this. I if

58:10

you tell me every week I run

58:12

a meeting with my husband a plan

58:14

our lives. I'm curious what happens in

58:16

that meeting but I'll leave the for

58:19

opened. My husband and I also run

58:21

a business together which I love the way

58:23

that we do it as we try to

58:25

take a walk every day together and we

58:27

talk about all kinds of stuff on the

58:29

walk. It's not exactly a meeting but it's

58:31

will make make sure that we touch base

58:34

on the stuff that we need to talk

58:36

about like I did, you did this, Did

58:38

you do that? or should we did S

58:40

or should we do that? Is it worth

58:42

it to. Hire this the are from There

58:44

was a topic of a recent walk and talk

58:47

that we. Had. The little sayings I

58:49

think you address in these impromptu two

58:51

minute conversations don't save them up. Say

58:53

the praise, say the criticism right away.

58:55

It's one of the things that I

58:57

did rights when we got married at

59:00

was I Cats and Gratitude Journal and

59:02

I would write down before I went

59:04

to sleep all the things that and

59:06

the and on that day that I

59:08

was grateful to him for having done

59:11

and then I realize this is ridiculous.

59:13

Only the right internal I married I

59:15

need to tell him they set. Fast,

59:18

fast, and so. I would make

59:20

a point to tell those things.

59:22

I think gratitude is a really

59:25

important part of any good relationships

59:27

and attitude often takes the form

59:29

of giving tries. To. Me

59:32

it's kind of the same sang. I. Also

59:34

try to make sure that I asking

59:36

and they on a regular basis. Sometimes

59:38

I'll say something and I can tell

59:41

and didn't land away and tended to

59:43

on oh my what a second. Don't.

59:45

Imagine just as you been married for fifteen

59:48

or twenty or thirty years, that you know

59:50

what. That other person this and she's like. I

59:52

barely know what I'm thinking. house a

59:54

dime A. Definitely don't know what he's

59:56

thinking. Something's listening. see that Getting a

59:58

lot of praise and. Not letting

1:00:00

things pile up, not

1:00:03

holding on to things for very long

1:00:05

is really important. You want to make

1:00:07

sure that you talk about something that

1:00:09

bugs you while it's still a little

1:00:11

thing. Don't let it become a big

1:00:14

thing. Radical candor should

1:00:16

not feel like a root canal. It should

1:00:18

feel like brushing and sloshing. Basic relationship hygiene.

1:00:21

The way you know you're succeeding is

1:00:24

that when you don't say the thing, you feel

1:00:26

a little gross, kind of like you feel if

1:00:28

you leave the house before you've brushed your

1:00:30

teeth. It needs to become a

1:00:32

habit of a relationship. I think

1:00:35

most of us, especially if there's a

1:00:37

little conflict to resolve or a little

1:00:39

criticism to share, we'd rather have a lot

1:00:41

of little conversations than one big one.

1:00:44

And when you have kids, it's time for a big conversation. Where

1:00:46

are you going to find it? And with your

1:00:48

children, I would say this. I made a

1:00:51

joke earlier that nobody in your life wants

1:00:53

to give you criticism except your children. Welcome

1:00:56

that. This is how we move

1:00:58

forward as a species, is that

1:01:00

it is the job of the

1:01:02

younger generation to criticize the older

1:01:04

generation. So I think the

1:01:06

more you can be open to criticism, you

1:01:08

don't have to agree with them. I mean,

1:01:10

you are wiser than they are, but they

1:01:12

have a fresh new perspective. Trying

1:01:14

to be open to that can make it

1:01:17

really useful. I will also say one of

1:01:19

the gifts that my children gave me when

1:01:21

they were two, when they were like in

1:01:23

that toddler rage stage. It's all good.

1:01:25

Minor one and three, so I'm there. Okay, so this

1:01:27

is for you. I found

1:01:29

that they have such intense

1:01:32

emotions. Like from zero

1:01:34

to 90, I learned when

1:01:36

they flail way down on the

1:01:38

floor of the grocery store and

1:01:40

start kicking their legs and screaming,

1:01:43

that it is really useful just not

1:01:45

to react, just to like count to

1:01:48

60, not to six, but to 60.

1:01:51

If you can manage not to react

1:01:53

for 60 seconds, they won't be able

1:01:55

to maintain that pitch of emotion. Let

1:01:57

it wash over you. And then once they are calmer, they will

1:01:59

be able to do that. you can re-engage with them

1:02:01

and I found that so helpful in

1:02:03

my CEO coaching practice as well. Senior

1:02:07

leaders often behave very much like two-year-olds. That

1:02:10

was one of the many gifts that I

1:02:12

got from my children. I love that. If

1:02:14

you ever write the House of Radical Candor,

1:02:16

I'm excited to read it. This has been

1:02:18

fantastic. Where do we want to send

1:02:20

people who are excited about all this and want more?

1:02:23

Check out radicalcander.com. I

1:02:26

am not much on Twitter anymore but

1:02:28

I do a lot of posting on

1:02:30

LinkedIn so you can find me, Kim

1:02:32

Scott on LinkedIn. There's

1:02:35

also a website radicalrespectbook.com

1:02:37

but if you want

1:02:39

to find everything in

1:02:41

one place, radicalcander.com is

1:02:44

probably the best place to go. I'm excited for the book.

1:02:46

It comes out when? May 7th but

1:02:48

you can pre-order it today so don't

1:02:50

wait. Awesome. Thank you so

1:02:52

much for being here. Thank you. Really enjoyed the

1:02:54

conversation. Such a great episode. Thank you so

1:02:56

much for listening. I

1:02:59

really hope you enjoyed it and if

1:03:01

you did, please consider clicking that follow

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1:03:37

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