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over thirty tools and controls at Instagram

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dot com slash safety.

0:16

Tonight, on all

0:18

the way If you're the president of the United

0:21

States, you can declassify just by saying,

0:23

I'm aistic classified. Even by thinking

0:25

about it, because you're sending it

0:28

to Mar a Lago or to wherever you're

0:30

sending it. He did it, and he

0:32

admits it. Trump could messes to

0:34

sending top secret documents to his Florida

0:36

retirement home. Tonight, the deepening

0:38

legal jeopardy for the disgraced ex president.

0:41

Then,

0:42

My husband told me that the president

0:44

asked about me twice, so I'm wearing

0:46

my Trump button. The expected

0:49

testimony from the wife of Supreme

0:51

Court, Justice Clarence Thomas, January

0:53

sixth committee member Pete Aguilar joins

0:55

me tonight. Plus, I

0:58

believe there's some criminal activity involved

1:00

here. New details on the Ron

1:02

DeSantis' migrant scandal and

1:05

what the Republican senate candidate in Georgia

1:07

has in common with his biggest booster when it

1:09

comes to charity. But all in

1:11

starts right now.

1:16

Good evening from New York. I'm Chris Hayes. Donald

1:18

Trump just had one of the worst legal days of

1:20

his entire life, which is saying something.

1:23

And it comes amidst a set of accelerating

1:25

threats from local, state and federal

1:27

law enforcement. So last night,

1:29

the eleven circuit court of appeals as we reported

1:32

issued a unanimous procurement ruling

1:34

against the ex president overroiling a

1:37

previous decision widely

1:39

criticized by a Trump appointed district

1:41

judge saying the Department of Justice

1:43

can resume using the one

1:45

hundred classified documents seized

1:47

from Trump's home in Florida in

1:49

their investigation into his handling

1:51

of the sensitive materials. DOJ

1:53

has said that this inquiry is related to possible

1:55

obstruction of justice and espionage

1:58

act violations.

2:00

Also yesterday, New York attorney general

2:02

announced a quarter of a billion

2:04

dollar civil lawsuit against Donald

2:06

Trump his company, members of his

2:09

family, including three of his adult children, accusing

2:11

them of committing committing, committing in her

2:13

words a staggering amount of fraud.

2:16

If that suit is successful, it

2:18

would bar the Trump organization from

2:20

doing business in New York State.

2:23

All of that comes just weeks after

2:25

we learned The DOJ issued

2:27

forty subpoenas to all

2:29

sorts of people in Trump's orbit in

2:31

connection with their investigation into

2:33

the attempted coup on January sixth.

2:36

The DOJ has also seized the

2:38

phones of two top advisers to

2:40

the ex president, which is interesting.

2:43

Then there's the fact that Donald Trump's own lawyer,

2:45

Rudy Giuliani, is a target of

2:48

a criminal investigation into election

2:50

interference, in

2:51

Fulton County, Georgia. The

2:53

district attorney down in Georgia in that

2:55

county there has sent letters

2:57

to several other Trump allies in Georgia

3:00

AND THE GRAND JURY IN THE CASE HAS ISSUED

3:02

SEVERAL SUPENMENTS. THEN

3:04

JUST THIS AFTERNOON, THE SPECIAL MASTER

3:06

IN THAT CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS CASE

3:08

ordered Trump's lawyers to state in a

3:10

court filing whether they believe

3:13

FBI agents lied about seized

3:15

from Arlago or claimed to have taken

3:17

items that were not actually in Trump's possession.

3:20

And all that follows the ex president's claims

3:23

on social media and in TV interviews

3:25

the FBI planted evidence when

3:27

they searched his home. Now,

3:29

this is a seventy six year old man

3:31

who has essentially bullied

3:33

and bluffed his way out of Jams' whole life.

3:36

He's a con man and he's gonna

3:38

con. And apparently no lawyer

3:40

can get him to shut up because amidst all

3:42

of this, Donald Trump went on national

3:44

television where he sounded

3:46

like a raving lunatic totally dissociated

3:49

from reality but crucially, fundamentally

3:52

admitted to the main facts of the

3:54

crime that the DOJ alleges

3:56

he may have committed.

3:57

If you're

3:59

the president of the United States, you can

4:02

declassify just by saying, I'm a declassified.

4:04

Even by thinking about it, because

4:06

you're sending it to Mar a Lago

4:09

or to wherever sending it.

4:11

And there doesn't have to be

4:13

a process There can be a process,

4:15

but there doesn't have to be. You're the president. You

4:17

make that decision. So when you

4:19

send it, it's the classified. We

4:22

I declassified everything.

4:24

Now, I declassified things and we were having a

4:26

lot of problems with Nera. You know, Nera,

4:30

is a radical left group of people

4:32

running that thing. And when you send

4:34

documents over there, I would

4:36

say there's a very good chance that a lot of

4:38

those events will never be seen again.

4:40

Okay. Again, amidst how

4:42

idled and strange that is,

4:44

Donald Trump admits the basic facts at issue

4:46

when he says and unquote, you're sending it

4:48

to Mar a Lago when you send it is

4:50

classified. He's telling

4:52

the world that he didn't

4:54

ever actually declassified. but

4:56

that he did order classified

4:58

documents to be removed from the White House and

5:00

sent, shipped down to his retirement

5:03

home in Florida. In other words, he

5:05

willfully and intentionally retained

5:07

classified government records and national

5:09

security secrets. He takes that

5:11

even further when he admits that he didn't

5:13

want to send the documents to the national archives

5:15

or Narra because he did not think

5:17

he would get them back. Yeah.

5:20

Right. That's how it works. Of

5:22

course, they wouldn't get them back. They're

5:24

not yours. They

5:26

get eaten. Now, as if that

5:28

was not wild enough, the ex president

5:30

then proceeded to go so far off

5:32

the rails that his longtime

5:35

supporter confidant colleague,

5:37

if you will, Fox News, host, Sean

5:40

Hannity, had to come in

5:42

and intervene to just try to wrench

5:44

him back to some semblance of reality.

5:47

There's also a lot of speculation

5:50

because of what they did the severity of the

5:52

FBI coming and raiding Maralago,

5:55

were they looking for the Hillary Clinton

5:57

emails that were deleted, but they are around

5:59

some place? Were they looking for

6:01

the -- Oh. -- spies that you have it.

6:03

No. No. They may be saying they

6:05

may have thought that it was a bit. Okay.

6:07

And a lot of people said the only thing

6:09

that would give the kind of severity

6:11

that they showed by actually coming in and

6:13

raiding with many, many people

6:16

is the Hillary

6:18

Clinton build the Russia, Russia,

6:20

Russia stuff. Or,

6:22

I mean, there are there are a number of things, the

6:24

spying on Trump's campaign. So they

6:26

spy to my campaign. So

6:28

why did they come in and do that?

6:30

Especially since we were having such

6:32

great conversations, John.

6:34

Well, poor Sean.

6:37

You see that part. So Trump's theory of the

6:39

case here apparently is that the FBI

6:42

rated his house in Mar a Lago because they were

6:44

looking for some physical remnants

6:46

of the Hillary Clinton emails that

6:48

were in Mar a Lago. And then

6:50

humanity has to be like, Wait.

6:53

that The

6:53

FBI is searching for Hillary's emails, but you

6:56

don't You didn't have them and you could

6:58

hear Hannity almost saying like, are you having

7:00

an aneurysm or am I?

7:02

But again, amidst the delusion, the spinning,

7:04

the tab dancing, Trump

7:06

isn't meaning to the core of the potential crime.

7:09

And

7:09

here's the other

7:10

thing, and this is crucial. As the

7:12

eleven circuit pointed out in its ruling yesterday,

7:15

the point he is making, right, as he

7:17

himself incriminates himself.

7:19

The point he's making about classification is

7:21

irrelevant. Quote, the

7:23

declassification argument is a red

7:25

herring because declassifying an official

7:27

document would not change its content

7:29

or render it personal. So even if

7:31

we assume that plaintiff did classify

7:33

some or all the documents, that would not

7:35

explain why he has a personal interest

7:37

in them. They're not

7:39

his either way. The

7:43

documents do not even have to be declassified for

7:45

Trump to make his defensive argument. The point

7:47

is that he took the material. He

7:49

didn't belong to him, classified or not, although

7:51

clearly it was classified. He lied

7:53

about it, Multiple times

7:56

resisted giving it back. That's

7:58

the essence of the criminal offense he's

7:59

being investigated for, and he just admitted

8:02

TO ALL OF IT ON NATIONAL TELEVISION.

8:05

BRAND AND VANCREAX IS FORMER MEMBER OF ROBERT

8:07

MUELLER'S TEAM. HE WAS A SENIOR OFFICIAL in

8:09

the DOJ's national security division.

8:12

And Joyce Vance is the former

8:14

US attorney for the Northern District of Alabama.

8:16

She now teaches law at the University

8:18

of Alabama, both join me now.

8:20

Brandon, first, let me start with you.

8:22

I mean, first, let's start on this obviously

8:25

ludicrous idea that there's a kind of like

8:27

Again, I think their theory of classification that

8:29

it's like a little, like, it's

8:31

like the mystery of of the

8:34

the communion host. Like, if

8:36

there's some moment, there's some, like, there's

8:38

some miraculous moment when it gets

8:40

transubstantiated from classified to

8:42

declassified, the president touches it or

8:44

he wills it so telepathically. So first,

8:47

I guess it's worthwhile just like

8:49

saying why that's ludicrous, which I think

8:51

it is. What do you think? Well,

8:55

you know, even

8:56

if the theory itself is

8:58

is ludicrous or sort of, it

9:00

is almost I would say

9:02

unknowable. In terms of the criminal

9:04

charges itself, it ultimately

9:06

should have at best a

9:09

negligible impact, if any impact

9:11

whatsoever.

9:12

Say

9:12

war.

9:15

So ultimately,

9:18

declassification whether the documents were classified

9:21

or unclassified. it doesn't

9:23

actually affect the three

9:25

charges at issue here. In fact, two of the

9:27

charges don't have anything to do with the sensitivity of

9:29

the documents at all. The one that

9:31

could It's involved in the espionage act. It

9:33

also doesn't use the term classified. And what

9:35

I'd say is because I think we need to be careful. If

9:37

the documents were declassified, it

9:40

could could

9:41

have an impact. But the notion of a

9:44

blanket, declassification order

9:46

that was secret and not communicated

9:48

to anyone it's unlikely to

9:50

have any impact for reasons that we could talk about

9:52

at the after show. Okay.

9:54

Well, Joyce, the the other point here

9:56

is that it does seem like the basic

9:58

contors the crime has alleged. Again,

10:01

according to the part of the espionage act

10:03

that cited in

10:05

that in the the parts

10:07

of the warrant that we got to see.

10:09

Right? He does seem to

10:11

basically be copying to all of it. Right? Basically,

10:13

it's whoever lawfully having possession

10:15

of, you know, a long list of

10:17

sort of categories

10:20

of things. Right? And it calls

10:22

it national defense or information

10:24

relating to the national defense. which

10:25

information the possesses reason to believe could be used

10:27

to the enter the US, will fully

10:30

retains the same and fails to deliver it on demand

10:32

to you officer or employee in the United States entitled

10:34

to receive it. Like, that's THE CRIME

10:36

AT ISSUE AND IT DOES SEEM LIKE HE'S

10:38

SAYING THAT HE DID

10:39

THAT. You

10:43

know, sometimes defense lawyers

10:45

have these difficult moments with

10:47

their clients where they really

10:49

want them to stop talking and

10:51

they won't. But Trump is an example of

10:53

that on steroids. This is someone who

10:55

just straps a megaphone to his mouth,

10:57

goes on national television tweets.

11:00

and Brandon knows like I do that

11:03

somewhere in the Department of Justice, someone

11:05

is making note of all of these

11:07

statements, cataloging them,

11:09

capturing video, and they will be

11:11

played back against the former

11:13

president if he has ever indicted and if the

11:15

case goes to trial because these statements,

11:17

quite frankly, are very, very

11:19

damaging to him. Beyond that,

11:21

they damaged the credibility of of his

11:23

lawyers. His lawyers were on the one hand in

11:25

court saying judge, we can't

11:27

talk about classification. It's inappropriate

11:30

to force us to talk about that. The

11:32

our client needs to retain the right to talk

11:34

about that later. And here, Trump is out

11:36

on TV saying, sure, I used a magic wand

11:38

and did double secret in in my mind

11:40

declassification. So it

11:42

really is a

11:44

mess The question and I think Brandon points this

11:46

out is whether it becomes a crime

11:48

that not only the government has the

11:50

evidence to prosecute, but is

11:52

similar, is in the range of cases

11:54

in this area that get prosecuted.

11:57

Typically, there has to be some plus

11:59

factor Here you've got

11:59

a lot of obstruction of justice, which

12:02

may well count. Howard Bauchner: Yeah, and

12:04

to your point, Joyce, this is this is a theme.

12:06

I remember this happened a lot in the in

12:08

the aftermath of the election in twenty

12:10

twenty. Trump

12:12

or others would make outlandish

12:15

claims about the levels of fraud

12:17

that wouldn't actually show up in the

12:19

lawyer's filings. Right? Because as as sort

12:21

of irresponsible words. What? Where?

12:23

They were bound a little bit, I think, by some sense

12:25

of legal ethics and saying just

12:28

outright falsehoods, right, in in their actual

12:30

filings. We're getting a similar thing

12:32

happening here again, Brandon. And it

12:34

was interesting to me, and I'd like to get your

12:36

your reaction to the special master

12:38

judge Deerey, basically saying

12:40

in an order today, are

12:42

you saying the FBI planet evidence?

12:44

And if so, tell

12:46

us which bits of evidence you

12:48

are asserting which seemed

12:50

like a put up or shut up moment.

12:53

That's exactly right. I think the

12:55

special master is really pressing the

12:57

former president's attorneys in terms of the those

12:59

allegations and also pressing them in terms

13:01

of the privilege claims the order

13:03

that he issued today really is trying to

13:05

expedite the process. But Chris, I wanna just make

13:07

one other point in terms of the declassification

13:09

argument because the the conversation now

13:11

is about how it may affect the the

13:13

criminal case. And I think as as Joyce

13:15

said, you know, if

13:17

anything this the comments are are incriminating.

13:19

But it's important to compare that

13:21

to the unknowable damage to

13:23

national security If this is true,

13:25

if there was a blanket order

13:27

to declassify over these three hundred

13:30

documents of heightened level

13:32

of classification. and no one in

13:34

the intelligence community was told about it.

13:36

And that meant the former president could

13:38

share this information with whomever

13:40

he wanted to.

13:41

It is know, the the damage

13:43

to National Credit. Again, it is almost unknowable,

13:46

and it's twenty one twenty one months

13:48

later, and the intelligence community still

13:50

hasn't been told if in fact that's

13:52

true. that's that's a great point that that that

13:54

essentially the argument proves too much. Right? Which

13:56

is to say if he said, yeah, all three hundred of these

13:58

documents, not unclassified, and I

14:00

can show them to, you know, whoever when

14:02

I'm hanging out at at the club or at the omelet

14:04

bar, I can, you know, show it to the the

14:06

bride at her wedding when she's down at Mar a Lago.

14:08

It doesn't matter who that THAT

14:11

YOU CAN'T DO THAT AND NOT TELL ANYONE ABOUT

14:13

IT BECAUSE PROSUBLY THAT WOULD

14:15

BE WILDLY RECKLESS EVEN BEYOND THE

14:17

PALE FOR DONALD TRUMP because there

14:19

are actual human intelligence sources for

14:21

instance who might be compromised or other things

14:23

like that. Howard Bauchner:

14:25

And he still hasn't told the

14:27

intelligence community whether that's true and

14:29

who we may have shown those documents to. Howard

14:31

Bauchner: Right, and there's been no official representations.

14:33

It it does seem like we we

14:35

sort of after after

14:37

floating in a strange kind of anti

14:39

gravity chamber of Judge Cannon,

14:41

and and really in in in a lot

14:43

of ways the sort of strangeness of

14:45

the president's legal

14:48

status

14:49

according to Department of Justice and OLC,

14:52

that

14:52

what Trump is facing now looks

14:54

more and obviously, he's a he's a

14:56

singular singular

14:59

case LOOKS MORE JOICED

15:01

LIKE SOME OF THE NORMAL GRAVITY

15:03

OF THE LAW BEING BROUGHT TO BEAR.

15:08

It

15:08

does look normal. It looks refreshingly

15:11

normal, Chris. And it's it's a

15:13

sad moment, I think, in our society.

15:15

that just this typical treatment of

15:17

a litigate in a courtroom is so

15:20

refreshing that it fills us with so

15:22

much relief because frankly,

15:24

we've become a country that questioned

15:26

whether the criminal justice system

15:28

was capable of dealing with the

15:30

sort of archiving manipulating

15:33

behavior that this president routinely

15:35

engages. So look, now we've seen two

15:37

judges, one in in Brooklyn, the special

15:39

master judge Deary and a

15:41

panel on the eleventh circuit that included

15:43

two judges that the former president

15:45

himself appointed to the bench.

15:47

We've seen those judges treat

15:49

him like any other litigant. He deserves

15:51

to be treated fairly. He's

15:53

entitled to have an opportunity to

15:55

respond and make arguments. but he

15:57

should not be treated with greater

15:58

privilege than other

15:59

litigants. And I think that's what speaks so

16:02

loudly in this moment. He's being

16:04

treated like everyone else. Joyce

16:05

Vance and Brendan Bancrack. Thank you both. I

16:08

really appreciate it. Coming

16:10

up, she is the wife of the Spring Court Justice

16:12

and a coo supporter who will soon be

16:14

testifying under oath of January sixth

16:16

committee, we think. Committee member of congressman

16:18

Pete Aguilar on what he wants to

16:20

hear from Jenny Thomas next.

16:24

I

16:26

am happy to be here, but my

16:28

husband told me that the president asked about

16:30

me twice, so I'm wearing

16:32

my Trump button. We need to

16:36

Hey, it is the time to be

16:38

behind whoever is our president

16:40

because there's a war for our country tree and

16:42

the things that we believe we are

16:44

going on. In recent

16:45

months, we have learned just how involved Ginnie,

16:48

the wife of Siding Supreme Court Justice

16:50

Clarence, was in the plot

16:52

to overturn the election, including a text

16:54

message she reportedly sent to Trump

16:56

chief of staff Mark Meadows days after the

16:58

election, quote, Biden Crime

17:00

Family and ballot fraud coconspirators elected

17:02

officials, bureaucrats, social media censorship markers,

17:04

fake stream media reporters, etcetera.

17:07

are being arrested and detained for ballot fraud right now

17:09

in over coming days, and will be living

17:11

in barges off gitmo to face military

17:13

tribunals for sedition. I

17:16

mean, I guess she was asking, like, is this true or she

17:18

was declaring it to be so, though it clearly

17:21

wasn't? That

17:22

text, again, comes from

17:24

the life

17:24

of the city's supreme court justice, a guy who

17:26

has not recused himself from many cases relating

17:28

to the election or the insurrection,

17:31

including being the lone justice to

17:33

agree with the ex president on blocking

17:35

the release of White House records relating to

17:38

January sixth. AND WE KNOW JUST HOW

17:40

CLOSE HE AND HIS WIFE ARE. Adrienne:

17:42

AND

17:42

THE BEST PART OF BEING A JUSTICE?

17:45

IT'S FIRST

17:45

OF ALL, IT'S

17:47

it'd be impossible without

17:50

you. I have to be honest. I

17:52

mean, it would be

17:54

the

17:56

it's sort

17:58

of like how do you run with one

17:59

leg? You

18:01

can't. I

18:04

the it

18:05

makes it whole when I have

18:07

my wife. To be

18:10

clear,

18:10

in another context that's

18:13

extremely sweet thing to say about your spouse and love

18:15

your life, but in the context we

18:17

have. Well, now we are

18:19

learning that Jenny Thomas has come to an

18:21

agreement to speak with the January six committee just as they

18:23

confirm their next hearing for

18:25

next Wednesday. Joining me now is

18:27

Congress and Pete Aguilar, Democrat of

18:29

California who serves on the

18:31

January sixth committee. Congressman, a

18:33

lawyer for Jenny Thomas, saying they're anxious

18:35

to clear up any conceptions

18:37

the committee may have about her role in

18:39

the aftermath of the election. Are you looking forward

18:41

to her testimony? Instagram

18:44

builds

18:44

features that can help teens see less

18:47

sensitive content, interact in

18:49

positive ways, and spend less time on

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Instagram. Explore over thirty

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tools and controls at instagram dot com slash

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safety.

18:57

Now

18:58

let's

18:59

take a short to talk about a perfect

19:02

pairing of McDonald's favorites. You know that

19:04

tender juicy crispy chicken sandwich

19:06

you love so much? It's even better when

19:08

paired with a frozen drink. I mean, think

19:10

about it. It's hot, you're

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hungry, and you need the perfect pear to

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feel better. McDonald's crispy

19:16

chicken sandwich with a frozen phantom

19:18

blue raspberry Coca Cola or

19:20

frozen Fanta Wild Cherry is exactly

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what you need. Try them today. Only

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at participating McDonald's.

19:28

Absolutely. You know, we look forward to

19:31

anyone coming and sharing what

19:33

they know about that time

19:35

period. But specifically, Jenny

19:37

Thomas because of her

19:39

coordination and discussion with John Eastman

19:41

on these, you know, crazy conspiracy

19:44

theories. We know that they were communicating

19:47

during that time. We know that

19:49

she was having conversations with

19:52

other state elected officials. Those are all

19:54

important to our investigation,

19:56

important to the work product that we

19:58

want to produce.

19:59

And ultimately, in order to tell the full and

20:02

complete story, we need to

20:04

hear of what she has to say. Yeah.

20:05

On the eastern point, just to to

20:08

reiterate this for folks who don't

20:10

remember and correct me if I'm wrong here.

20:12

Right? But John Eason's, if I'm a clerk

20:14

of justice justice Thomas is very

20:16

close to many of his former clerks. And

20:18

there has been evidence I believe that your

20:20

committees uncovered that Jenny Thomas

20:22

and Eastman were in touch communicating

20:24

about the aftermath of the election,

20:26

about Eastman's plan, right,

20:28

to to essentially he was the

20:30

mastermind behind the kind of Mike Pence

20:33

coup idea.

20:36

Exactly. So the the theory

20:39

that they proposed and we know that they

20:41

were communicating during during

20:43

this time. In addition to the text

20:45

messages that you showed, that she was communicating to

20:47

the White House Chief of Staff, she was

20:49

communicating to John Eastman, a

20:51

a lot professor. This is the same

20:53

individual who a federal judge

20:55

in California said

20:57

with the president more likely than not.

21:00

committed federal crimes. That

21:02

individual came up with this theory

21:05

that the vice president could

21:07

set aside the electors

21:09

or send it back to the states for

21:11

more time. None of that is

21:14

grounded in our laws. And by

21:16

the way, Chris. We should take a a minute to

21:18

acknowledge that Liz Cheney and Zillow Offgram

21:21

authored a change to those

21:23

laws. So we ensure that

21:25

this never happen again from a legislative perspective,

21:27

but Jenny Thomas was in

21:29

close coordination and and touch with Johnny

21:31

Eastman during that time. We think that's incredibly

21:34

relevant time period, and we plan to ask questions about

21:36

it. Well, you perfectly set up

21:37

my next question, which is about the legislation

21:39

that passed the House I believe

21:41

yesterday, co sponsored and co authored by

21:44

Zillowfgren and Liz Cheney, of course, members of the

21:46

committee. I think it got nine

21:48

Republican votes the Republican leadership whipped

21:50

against it. It was

21:52

condemned by the ex president, not

21:54

surprisingly, since it was the

21:56

law that he was try to use. How

21:59

should people understand both

22:01

what it does and the fact that you can

22:03

only get nine Republican votes

22:06

to shore up the law

22:08

against possible future coups.

22:13

Yeah. We're

22:13

trying to ensure that another

22:16

insurrection doesn't happen, and the

22:18

only individuals on the other side of the yahoo

22:20

could find are nine of them

22:22

who none of whom are serving

22:24

in the next congress. So

22:26

we appreciate their

22:29

bravery and in putting up that

22:31

vote, but none of them are going to be there

22:33

next year, and that shows how

22:36

strong of a hold. that Kevin McCarthy and

22:38

the Republican leadership has

22:40

on on his conference. And it's

22:42

unfortunate that while we're trying to

22:45

support and protect democracy. They

22:47

don't they don't mind if we

22:49

play by the same rules in which a single

22:51

individual could try to alter the outcome

22:53

of a free and fair election. Yeah. I mean,

22:54

I would I would say that I'm not sure it's

22:56

Kevin McCarthy's hold on that caucus. That's so

22:59

strong, so much as it is Donald

23:01

Trump, and and and the base that

23:03

he represents final question for

23:05

you. I believe the the the

23:07

hearing on on September twenty eighth is now

23:09

official. Is there

23:11

something we should be looking for? And what's your understanding of the

23:13

timeline this fall for the rest of the

23:15

committees

23:15

work?

23:17

We look forward to convening again, the

23:20

chairman announced that we would have a hearing

23:22

on September twenty eighth when we left

23:24

after twenty hours of

23:27

material that we laid in front of the

23:29

American public. We have since

23:31

received more information and

23:33

we want to, you know, emphasize some

23:35

of the points that we

23:38

made earlier. And so we felt that

23:40

it was appropriate and timely. to

23:42

do that. So in addition to the final

23:44

report that we will produce in the future,

23:46

we wanted to have an

23:49

additional hearing. and I won't get

23:51

into the content of the hearing, but I can tell

23:53

you that there will be new

23:55

information as well

23:57

as reemphasizing the

23:59

key points that include how

24:01

the president knew he lost the election. He was told

24:03

he lost the election. He continued to

24:06

put forward these theories and to

24:08

gravitate to any possible

24:11

way to hold power including

24:14

violating laws and

24:16

setting aside and disregarding the

24:18

sixty times he lost in federal

24:21

court. he was unfazed. And so he

24:23

pointed at the capital, and he

24:25

encouraged his supporters to march down the

24:27

capital where he wanted to

24:29

march with them. Mhmm. And this

24:31

was after the pressure campaign that he

24:33

put on his own vice president to

24:35

alter the outcome of the election.

24:36

Alright. Congress and Pete Aguilar on the January

24:39

sixth committee, which will be convening for a hearing

24:41

next week. We will be watching that.

24:43

I suspect we will be covering it

24:45

in this hour that night. Thank you very

24:47

much. Thank you.

24:50

Still to come to governor Ron DeSantis tries

24:52

to show he can be as cruel as Donald Trump

24:54

winds up ensnared in one of the

24:56

biggest scandals of his political

24:58

career. A lot moving parts on that, the

25:01

latest next.

25:05

Back in twenty thirteen, there was a big scandal

25:08

involving a Republican governor who had hoped to

25:10

running for president and had involved then

25:12

governor Chris Christie of New

25:14

Jersey. the shutting down of access

25:16

lanes to the George Washington Bridge

25:18

in an act of sheer political

25:20

retribution to a local mayor. The

25:22

lane closures lasted for days, they caused

25:24

hours long traffic jams that delayed buses

25:26

carrying school kids and commuters trying to

25:28

get to work and even emergency vehicles.

25:31

It was a political stunt that hurt Christie's political

25:33

aspirations had real life consequences for

25:35

ordinary people. It led to a bunch of people

25:37

getting prosecuted and even indicted

25:40

and convicted. Now,

25:42

at some level, that sounds

25:45

awfully similar to another political son pulled

25:47

recently by another Republican governor

25:49

with his Iowa White House. Because

25:51

last week, Republican, Rhonda Sanchez, Florida

25:53

used taxpayer money to fly forty eight

25:55

migrants from Texas to an island in Massachusetts.

25:58

my parents, including children, were told they were

26:01

being flown to Boston or Washington DC,

26:03

where they'd be given jobs, housing,

26:05

educational opportunities. according

26:07

to a lawsuit, some of them filed this week against

26:09

DeSantis and others. Instead, they

26:11

were taken to a small island where they

26:13

were left without food, water, or shelter, until

26:15

residents there learned about their arrival and came to

26:18

hell. Here's the thing. This was

26:20

a stunt, clearly

26:22

done to sort of stick

26:24

it to his political enemies. But

26:26

the incident is now under investigation

26:28

by the sheriff of Bear County,

26:30

Texas where the migrants had been

26:32

living. I

26:32

believe that they were preyed upon. Somebody

26:35

came from out of state, prayed upon these

26:37

people,

26:37

lured them with promises

26:40

of of a better life to

26:42

just be exploited and

26:45

hoodwinked into making this trip to

26:47

Florida and then onward to Martha's Vineyard

26:49

for what I believe to be nothing more

26:51

than political ASTERING. AND IT IS

26:53

REASONABLE ASK IF THE ANNOUNCEMENT OF THAT

26:55

INVESTIGATION MIGHT HAVE PLAYED APART. IN

26:57

DUCENTIS SUDDENLY CANCELLING

26:59

A SECOND plan flight of migrants. This time

27:01

to Delaware, the home state of present

27:03

Bud. Some great news reporting from

27:05

Miami Herald says that they were at it again,

27:07

that this second group We're also asylum seekers

27:09

from Venezuela. We're also promised to

27:11

flight to a destination where there would be more

27:13

resources to help them, but

27:15

instead their flight planned for this week was

27:17

abruptly canceled. Joining me now is one of

27:19

the reporters who broke that Miami Herald

27:21

story, Sarah Blaskey. Sarah,

27:23

it's great to have you on. I

27:25

learned a lot from your reporting. Just

27:28

walk me through what you learned from the folks you

27:30

interviewed about. Who these people were, what they

27:32

were told, how they ended up in

27:34

hotel, I believe waiting for a flight that never came.

27:36

So

27:37

all of

27:38

these people had remarkably similar

27:42

stories. all of

27:42

them came from Venezuela. We

27:45

talked to at least half a

27:47

dozen people who were getting on that bus

27:49

that you showed there. a

27:51

moment ago, and they all

27:53

said that they had recently come from

27:55

Venezuela, made the journey up through

27:57

Central America across the US

27:59

Mexico border, close to here, close

28:01

to San Antonio, Texas, and then

28:03

they ended up at the migrant

28:05

resource center here in

28:07

San Antonio. And at that center, you

28:09

have three days. You can stay for three

28:11

days and then you're out. And so people are

28:13

very desperate here to find

28:15

a way to move forward with their lives.

28:17

And that's what happened here. As

28:19

they're outside of that center, they're

28:21

approached by a woman who never

28:23

gives her name. She says she's

28:25

from an organization that is going to

28:27

help them get somewhere in the country.

28:29

She said they couldn't that

28:31

she wouldn't tell them where

28:33

they were going. or she couldn't

28:36

until the very last moment, but it

28:38

would be away from Texas to a

28:40

place that had more resources for

28:43

them and potentially jobs. And so they signed

28:45

up and and quite

28:47

literally the way it worked was you just

28:49

get into her SUV. If

28:51

you're If you're a yes for this program,

28:53

you'd get into the SUV at

28:55

that point. They would drive to a

28:57

La Quinta outside of San

29:00

Antonio, outside of downtown. And

29:02

then they waited until there were

29:04

enough people to fill a flight. And that

29:06

news came in earlier this week,

29:08

there was gonna be a flight to

29:10

And as of that night, as of

29:12

Monday night, that flight was still

29:14

on. These people were were told

29:16

you're going to Delaware in

29:18

the morning, everything leaves at five

29:21

AM. And and then the next

29:23

morning, the bus never came for

29:25

them. The the plane never came and and they were

29:27

kind of left sitting there. what they

29:29

didn't realize was that

29:30

in that

29:31

span of time, an

29:34

investigation was announced, as you

29:37

mentioned, by the

29:39

sheriff here, Javier Solazar.

29:41

So

29:42

I'm just it's

29:45

so weird. have to say, I mean, not to

29:47

hammer on this point, but you're investigative

29:49

reporter to Miami Herald, you know, I I've done

29:51

reporting on government agencies. This is just

29:53

not the way government

29:55

agencies or contractors tend to operate

29:57

like some sketchy unnamed

29:59

woman

29:59

standing outside telling people get in an

30:02

SUV like Who is this

30:04

person? Who does she work

30:06

for? Who's paying her? How much

30:08

is she paying? Is this the same woman as

30:10

the parallel? who got folks to go to Martha's

30:12

Vineyard? Do we know that? This

30:13

is

30:14

not parallel. Parla

30:17

was involved our

30:19

understanding as parallel was involved

30:21

in this flight as well.

30:23

And in booking the

30:25

hotel, for example, But the woman that

30:27

was approaching everyone, nobody

30:29

identified as parallel. She was a different

30:31

woman. We don't have a name at all

30:33

in this case. And

30:36

so so, no, we don't exactly

30:38

know how all of these pieces are

30:40

connected. We do know that

30:42

Governor DeSantis took credit for that

30:44

flight to Martha's Vineyard. We do know

30:46

that the same planes were going to be

30:48

used. We do know that parallel was involved

30:50

in both this woman, but

30:53

there are also others. We

30:55

spoke with people and it sounds like there are three

30:57

or four other recruiters out

30:59

there for this program. And

31:01

to date, we don't know who

31:04

they are. at some

31:05

point, right, that there's a there's some

31:08

contract. The

31:10

governments

31:10

of Florida using

31:13

taxpayer

31:13

money signed to

31:15

employ, to hire someone to do this, and that has to they

31:18

can't keep that secret forever. Am

31:20

I wrong?

31:21

So

31:22

we do know that they have

31:25

paid over one point five million

31:27

dollars to a company called

31:29

Veritall Systems. And and virtual

31:31

systems really is is the

31:33

logistics coordinator behind this program

31:35

or at least behind the Martha's Vineyard

31:38

Trip. And in that

31:41

funding comes from a program that

31:43

was funded up to twelve million

31:45

dollars

31:45

to relocate

31:48

immigrant

31:48

who are seeking asylum or otherwise out

31:50

of Florida into other

31:53

places. And and

31:55

so that is that is

31:57

where the funding for these flights came

31:59

from. Interestingly, these

32:02

folks were not in Florida. Of course,

32:04

they were in Texas. But

32:07

And not only that best understanding.

32:09

Yeah. The statutory language

32:11

in that budget was unauthorized

32:14

immigrants. There's some some

32:16

in the Florida state legislators are pointing out these

32:18

people are not unauthorized. They are

32:20

actually pending asylum

32:22

review. Sarah Balsky, THANK YOU MUCH FOR GREAT REPORTING.

32:24

I REALLY APPRECIATE IT. THANK

32:26

YOU. Reporter: STILL AHEAD

32:29

WHETHER IT'S CLAIMING HE HAS A DUBIOUS

32:31

CURE FOR COVID OR SHOWING HE DOESN'T

32:33

REALLY UNDER and climate concerns. Georgia Senate

32:35

candidate Hershel Walker has a lot in common with

32:37

Donald Trump, and that extends to his

32:39

charitable donations too. New

32:41

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So

33:46

what kind of preparation? Automated

33:50

voters. talking to

33:50

you. You told me I

33:51

gotta prepare as I'm preparing. I'm this country

33:53

boy. You know, I'm not that smart. And he's

33:56

that preacher. He's a smart man wear these

33:58

nice suits. he gonna show up and bares me

33:59

at the debate October the fourteenth, and

34:02

I'm just waiting you all show up and I'm a do

34:04

my best.

34:07

As

34:07

I've said here before in an election cycle full of ridiculous Republican

34:09

senate candidates, including TV doctors and

34:11

coup supporters, Churchill Walker

34:14

may be Among the most unqualified, if not the most

34:16

unqualified candidate running to serve in public

34:18

office, not only because he seems just

34:20

incapable of answering even the most

34:22

basic policy questions, but because he

34:24

appears to lie almost

34:26

instinctually in a way that we have not seen since

34:28

Donald Trump, walk her lies about

34:30

little things like his act at MY BACKCROUND

34:32

AND BIG THINGS LIKE THE NUMBER OF CHILDREN HE

34:34

HAS. THE SIMILARITIES TO CHOP

34:36

DON'T END THERE. YESTERDAY WE BROUGHT

34:38

YOU A STORY ABOUT A GRIFF. THE EX PRESIDENT

34:40

POLLED WITH HIS foundation where

34:42

he raised millions of dollars for veterans, charities.

34:44

And then when he figured folks were no longer

34:46

paying attention, he neglected to actually give

34:49

away all the money he pledged. It

34:51

was only when reporter David Fairfield and other members of the

34:53

media repeatedly dogged Trump about missing money

34:55

that the then candidate actually

34:57

donated at all. David

34:59

Ferrenfeld is back at it again. In a new

35:02

report for New York Times, Ferrenfeld

35:04

uncovered a pledge made by Hershel Walker's

35:06

business to donate profits

35:08

to charities. a pledge still available on an archived version of its

35:10

website in twenty seventeen, quote, walker's

35:12

company respects its roots and is

35:14

dedicated to helping others who are

35:16

less fortunate. That is why

35:18

fifteen percent of its profits are given to

35:20

various charitable organizations serving

35:22

people in need, including a national

35:25

multiple sclerosis society, special Olympics, PE for Life Programs, the

35:27

Boy Scouts of America, and others.

35:30

Well, I think you probably know where this is

35:32

going. As far as both reports, sure seems

35:34

like Walker

35:36

didn't make good on that promise. Quote, when the New York

35:38

Times contacted those for charities, one declined

35:40

to comment. The other three said they had no record or

35:42

recollection of any gift from the company

35:45

in the last decade. When asked about the missing money, a

35:48

walker campaign spokesman said, quote,

35:50

Hershel Walker has given millions of dollars to charities

35:52

but refused to

35:54

elaborate further. Now we have no way

35:56

of knowing if that's true or not. Walker's campaign could easily clear the whole thing up by releasing

35:58

any evidence. But even if Walker

36:00

has made charitable contributions pass

36:03

that doesn't change the fact that, like Trump

36:05

before him, Walker through his company tried to do

36:07

the same thing apparently. Tried to

36:10

earn some goodwill by pledging charitable

36:12

donations that well, simply

36:15

never materialized. From

36:17

the moment, the Vladimir

36:20

Putin appeared on Russian television

36:22

to his invasion of Ukraine. He was very careful, not to call the

36:24

war, but a special military

36:26

operation. In fact, even signed a

36:28

law making it illegal to call the

36:30

invasion a war. The reason for that is

36:32

despite his authoritarian grip on the country, he

36:34

was worried about the political blowback of

36:36

a society

36:38

wide mobilization. Cotton wanted to

36:40

just use the existing army, secure

36:42

a quick victory by toppling Ukrainian

36:44

government, and never have to ask for

36:46

massive sacrifice for the vast majority

36:48

of Russian citizens. with the

36:50

grinding pace of the war that has clearly

36:52

not panned out in the wake of the

36:54

really stunningly effective Ukrainian

36:56

counter offensive retaking large amounts of territory in the last

36:58

month. Putin has basically been

37:00

forced

37:00

into a nationwide mobilization

37:02

if he wants to continue the war.

37:06

And

37:06

he's still trying to hedge, not calling at a universal draft, but

37:08

it basically is as far as we can tell

37:10

from reporting on the ground because there are now scenes

37:12

across Russia of men being

37:16

taken in. for training ahead of expected deployment,

37:18

prompting renewed protests by

37:20

Russian people. The question now is what

37:22

this means to the prospects of

37:24

the war, as

37:25

well as the political situation inside of Russia.

37:27

Joining

37:27

me now to talk about that New Yorker Staffwriter,

37:30

Marcia Gessen, author of several books about Russian

37:32

authoritarianism, including surviving

37:34

photography. It's photography. It's such a pleasure to have

37:36

you here at the table. That's good to be here in

37:38

person. I guess, how would you

37:40

characterize the

37:42

reaction? it's a hundred and forty four million people in Russia, so

37:44

big complicated country, but but but

37:46

in Russian society to this latest announcement.

37:49

I think

37:49

everybody understands on some level, some

37:52

people explicitly and some

37:54

people in their

37:56

gut that this

37:57

is the moment when pushing

37:59

starts using

37:59

people as cannon fodder. Right? And the plan is

38:02

very clear. It's to put a human

38:04

shield in the way of the

38:06

Ukrainian counter offensive in order to be

38:08

able to hold ground through the winter with

38:10

the idea that Europe is going to

38:12

get tired of refugees, Europe is going to

38:14

get tired of having very expensive gas or shortages

38:16

of gas. And so support

38:18

for Ukraine will

38:20

wane. And the

38:22

flow of weapons to Ukraine and financial help to

38:24

Ukraine is going to be stemmed. So

38:26

he needs to hold ground. In order to

38:28

hold ground, he's just going to put

38:31

people on that ground as as a

38:33

human shield as as cannon

38:35

fodder. So all tickets

38:37

from Moscow to cities where

38:39

you can still fly. From from

38:42

Moscow have been bought up.

38:44

People are trying to find ways to fly

38:46

out of of other

38:48

cities. They're getting their documents

38:50

checked at the border being asked by border

38:52

guard to prove that they bought their

38:54

ticket before mobilization

38:56

was announced. that is a bona fide

38:58

vacation and they're not

39:00

fleeing. So it's a sort of

39:02

panic. Howard Bauchner: The

39:02

Guardian Reporting and I thought this was just

39:04

useful that from one of the activist groups there. It's not

39:06

a partial mobilization. It's a hundred percent mobilization.

39:09

It did seem like he was sort of head there

39:11

was a little bit of hedging in the speech,

39:13

but just based on what we're seeing, it does seem like if

39:15

they want to hold that ground, the number

39:17

of troops they need is in the hundreds of

39:19

thousands, it's gonna be a lot of people. Well,

39:21

what the minister of the minister of defense said that they're

39:24

going to mobilize three hundred

39:26

thousand people. So

39:28

nobody's going to be able to hold

39:30

them to account. right, three hundred thousand can turn

39:32

into a million and a half. Yeah. But,

39:34

yeah, of course, of course, it's

39:36

total mobilization. People are starting to

39:39

get notices all over the

39:41

country. I know, for example, the people

39:43

in their 50s

39:44

getting mobilized.

39:46

They seem to be especially focusing on

39:48

medics spend and people but the pharmaceutical

39:52

education, which also doesn't make people feel when

39:54

you say from.

39:55

There's something very bleak about

39:57

these scenes. I have to

39:59

say.

39:59

I mean, from

40:01

the beginning this entire thing even though I can put myself

40:03

in understanding the historic importance

40:05

of Ukraine to Russia and

40:07

there are, you know, it's

40:09

always just felt like such madness,

40:12

such such senseless destruction.

40:14

And to see it now being

40:16

compounded is it's very difficult to watch, very upsetting. It's

40:19

horrifying to watch.

40:20

And you know what Putin was counting on was

40:22

that he was going to be able to get

40:26

support for a very quick military operation that was going to prove that

40:29

Russia as strong as it's ever been

40:31

and is going to place it

40:33

alongside the United States. in

40:35

a world. Now he's still claiming

40:37

that he is fighting a

40:38

proxy war against the United States

40:40

and against the larger west in

40:43

Ukraine. Right? Is this not a war

40:45

against Ukraine? But it's much harder to get

40:47

people excited about that. You know, why

40:50

should you go die for

40:51

for Russia and Ukraine in

40:54

while fighting the United States. Do you

40:56

think I mean, we're seeing right now, we're we're sending

40:58

BRI mean, it did seem to

41:01

me there was an interesting calculation in that first

41:03

announcement. Right? Special military operation. Don't call the war.

41:05

If you call the war, in fact, you could be

41:07

arrested. Right? I mean, the criminalization

41:09

of that. have some sense that it

41:11

would not kind of have your cake needed too.

41:13

We will have this glorious victory, but you're not gonna

41:15

have to do anything.

41:17

And as that comes

41:18

apart, does that shift

41:20

Russian

41:20

public opinion civil society?

41:22

Unfortunately, I think

41:24

Putin is

41:25

generally over cautious he's always

41:27

been more afraid of protests and more afraid of of

41:30

lack of popularity than he has any

41:32

reason to be. That's interesting. There's no mechanism

41:36

protest to bring him down. And then, yes, we saw thirteen hundred people

41:38

get arrested yesterday for protests

41:41

in nearly forty cities

41:44

across Russia. These are incredibly

41:46

brave people. Right? These people are actually

41:48

risking labor. You know, seven, ten,

41:50

fifteen years in prison potentially, and they're

41:52

coming out into the street. But thirteen hundred people

41:54

in a country of one hundred and forty

41:56

five million people in it. That's not a

41:58

lot of people.

41:59

He has the

41:59

capacity to terrorize the

42:02

entire country. And part of the way that mobilization has been used also

42:04

it's an instrument of terror at the

42:06

same time that it's an instrument of mobilization.

42:10

because it's random, because they're not announcing any systematic

42:12

approach. Right? Three hundred thousand people,

42:14

here we're gonna plug a

42:17

fifty one year old man with a medical

42:19

education. Here we're going to grab an eighteen year old

42:21

on the metro. Right?

42:24

So

42:24

that is also a hedge against any change in public opinion. That's such an

42:26

interesting point. I hadn't thought of that, obviously,

42:28

drafts are not it's not like Russia

42:31

vented draft. The US has had conscription, of course, in

42:33

the Vietnam War, you

42:36

had at least at the

42:38

top line system that people knew. They knew what their number was. They knew what the lottery was

42:40

drawing. What you're saying here is that this

42:42

is the big cup everybody's on that

42:44

is. Yeah.

42:46

Right. And it could be you, and that's just another implement for the

42:48

state to terrify people. Exactly. And

42:50

that's part of why we're seeing that kind of,

42:52

you know, we're seeing that people are panicked.

42:55

We're seeing that what terrified because it is terror.

42:58

Right? And, you know, that's

43:00

an expected reaction from Putin to the

43:02

Ukrainian counter

43:04

offensive. so serve the dual purpose. One is to hold you back, but the other is

43:06

to terrorize the country. lest people

43:08

consider changing their support. I mean, you

43:12

know, not consciously considered. It also seems doing a message about

43:14

commitment. Right? It's commitment

43:16

declaration. In the sort of game

43:18

theory sense of how the west nuclear react.

43:21

Don't you think for a second, we're gonna go wobbly. Right.

43:24

And and so that's why in the same

43:26

he mentions the threat of nuclear weapons.

43:28

Right. He is willing to go that far.

43:31

Well, it's going to be a

43:33

very brutal winter, and I hope that we get to

43:35

have you back again soon to talk about

43:38

something that looks better

43:40

than than how things look. Marcia Gessen, it's always

43:42

such a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you, Chris. That

43:44

does it for all in. You can catch us every week

43:46

night at eight o'clock. on MSNBC. Don't forget to

43:48

like us on Facebook. That's facebook dot

43:50

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