0:03

Please note that this podcast contains

0:05

information regarding sensitive events

0:07

, including domestic violence

0:09

, assault and abuse , as

0:11

well as other triggering

0:13

events such as murder . This

0:17

podcast is intended for mature

0:19

audiences . When

0:22

Alice jumped down the rabbit hole , she

0:24

immediately regretted her decision . A

0:27

rabbit hole is a metaphor for

0:29

something that transports someone into

0:31

a troubling , surreal state or situation

0:34

. Welcome to Afterglow

0:36

, unveiling the Idaho

0:38

Cult . This is Season

0:41

2 , episode 17,

0:43

. Christina and Nicole , This

0:47

podcast will take you down the deepest of

0:49

rabbit holes as it unfolds . This

0:51

story is so compelling , so bizarre

0:54

and so genius . It's impossible

0:56

to look the other way . Chad

0:59

DeBal and Lori Vallow were dedicated

1:01

in the most horrible way to

1:03

an ideology that should only be

1:05

fiction . Instead , their

1:07

ideology put them behind bars

1:09

. Join us as we explore

1:12

the lives , lies and diabolical

1:15

crimes of Lori Vallow and Chad

1:17

DeBal . I'm your host , kathy

1:19

Brooks . Please follow and subscribe

1:22

wherever you get your podcasts . Hello

1:27

everyone , and welcome back to

1:29

Afterglow . This is Season 2

1:31

, episode 17 . We're going to

1:33

dive into some

1:36

more of what was going on behind

1:38

the scenes that later unfolded , but

1:40

keeping this in chronological order

1:42

. How it was happening in real life . The

1:46

detectives in Arizona decided

1:48

to make a visit on April

1:50

15 , 2020 , to

1:53

two of Lori's friends , christina

1:55

and Nicole . So

1:57

today's episode I have the body

2:00

cam audio of that And

2:03

it's pretty interesting . Remember

2:05

, these ladies were part of the circle

2:07

with Melanie Gibbs , alema

2:09

, melanie P , lori

2:12

and these ladies Okay

2:15

, they were part of that circle involved

2:17

in this casting out , completely

2:19

aware that Lori was labeling people

2:21

, including her husband , charles , at the time

2:24

when he was alive , when they were doing this as

2:26

a zombie . Before we get

2:28

started listening to Christina and Nicole

2:31

, this was posted around

2:33

the same time , approximately April

2:35

2020 , when people were looking for the kids

2:38

and Lori and Chad

2:40

were like what ? We're

2:42

not talking to anybody . Emma

2:44

DeBell was in a conversation

2:46

via text or instant

2:49

messenger or something with someone and

2:51

it was posted online . Emma

2:54

says to this person the

2:56

kid's situation is complicated , so

2:58

I'm not supposed to say too much about

3:00

it , but it really boils down to

3:02

a super nasty custody

3:04

dispute . Lori is protecting

3:06

the kids from people that are actually monsters

3:09

. Luckily , now that

3:11

it is in court , we can address the

3:13

lies head on . Anything we

3:15

say or do outside of court gets twisted

3:17

horribly , which is why we just

3:19

stay quiet for now , but our side

3:22

will be heard . She goes

3:24

on to say so it is complicated and I hate

3:26

how twisted things have become and how nasty

3:28

people are , but eventually things

3:30

should work out . Sorry

3:33

about how long that was . Thanks for letting me vent

3:35

a little , haha . So

3:37

the other person replies oh my gosh , this

3:39

puts it in a whole other perspective

3:41

. So the kids are alive , despite all

3:44

the rumors . I've been super involved

3:46

in this case because you guys are basically my

3:48

family and I've been doing my best

3:50

to defend you guys . I'm

3:53

just concerned about the recent deaths , the

3:55

change to your mom's life insurance

3:57

policy so soon before her death

3:59

, and so much more . I've

4:01

seen and heard so much and I have so

4:03

many questions . I also

4:05

don't understand why she doesn't just say

4:08

the kids are safe and present them

4:10

to the police , then move them somewhere

4:12

else . Emma replies yeah

4:15

, i'm not sure why they don't either . They've

4:17

had five different attorneys . I'll advise

4:19

them not to . So I trust

4:22

there's a reason the kids are

4:24

alive and safe . I really can't say

4:26

more than that right now . It will

4:28

come out in the courtroom . Just

4:30

know the rumors are blown out of proportion that

4:32

there are some horrible coincidences

4:34

, such as my mom's life insurance and Lori's

4:37

brother dying of an asthma attack during

4:39

all of this . They really are just

4:41

that horrible coincidences

4:44

. Charles Vallow was killed because

4:46

he was attacking them and Lori's

4:48

brother shot in self-defense . Since

4:50

we really haven't said anything to the media

4:52

, it makes sense people jump to the worst

4:55

conclusions , perpetuated by

4:57

the other side . But we will

4:59

share our side in more detail when

5:01

the time is right . Interesting

5:06

right . So Emma was being told that Alex

5:08

died of an asthma

5:10

attack and that the kids are alive

5:12

, and these are just coincidences

5:14

that her mother's life insurance was raised

5:16

and Alex died of an asthma attack

5:18

right around the same time . And

5:21

five attorneys have told them

5:23

you know , you , we are advising

5:26

you to be quiet . This

5:28

all just lies . I

5:34

don't understand why she would be so

5:36

gullible . But well

5:39

, she is Okay

5:42

, let's move on . Here

5:45

is the interview when the police

5:47

show up knocking on Christina's

5:49

door asking questions

5:51

Hello

5:58

, hello

6:03

.

6:08

How's it going ? Is

6:10

Christina around

6:14

? Well , sure

6:16

, what's up . I'm

6:21

Detective Bob with Channel PD . I'm just doing a follow up on

6:23

a case , is it ? It is , come on in , sir . We're

6:25

just come on in

6:28

. Okay , this is a mess and we're just kind of getting

6:32

some cooking and stuff . But please come and

6:34

sit down on my couch . Oh , that's fine . That's fine . Come on , doc . You bossing

6:36

, how's it going ? This is to be heard . I'll talk to the doctor now , no problem .

6:40

So how do you know , Lori

6:43

?

6:54

Church , church

6:56

. Okay , how

6:59

long have you known her Spin

7:03

?

7:13

How many years ?

7:14

I'm okay , thank you , my job is over

7:17

there somewhere .

7:18

So we probably know , lori , for how many years has

7:20

it been since ? Probably seven years , seven years

7:22

, yeah , okay , do you know Chad ? Not

7:24

at all , i don't know , i don't know .

7:25

I don't know , i don't know , i don't

7:29

know . Chuck

7:38

, I'm going to ん

7:46

to

7:57

met him up in Idaho . Okay

8:01

, when's

8:03

obviously before all

8:06

this stuff happened . when was last time that you talked to Lori

8:08

? June , june , what

8:10

was that conversation like

8:13

or about ?

8:17

I had gone to visit her . I was kind of concerned about

8:20

some of the stuff that she was talking

8:22

about saying and I just

8:24

wanted her to visit there

8:27

and look concerned about

8:29

you Okay . And I reached

8:31

out to her multiple

8:33

times after that . She really didn't respond to

8:35

me at all . So

8:37

, like I heard about her husband's

8:39

death and I left

8:42

her a message and reached

8:44

out for multiple times and then texted

8:48

her a few times , she may have texted back

8:50

twice , but if she did , it was

8:52

very , very short .

8:54

Okay .

8:54

She really hasn't spoke to me since

8:56

June Okay .

8:57

Yeah

9:03

, when you said you were concerned about her

9:05

behavior was there , i guess

9:07

. What brought that on .

9:09

Well , actually it wasn't . So

9:11

I had never met her brother , alex , until

9:13

like a week , like a couple

9:20

days before that , and I had gone to

9:23

visit her and some ladies and he was there , and

9:25

just the way that they were talking , i just felt it was

9:28

not appropriate . Okay

9:30

, she had gone to work for a

9:32

religious discussion and

9:34

had gotten into the realms of

9:36

rude and

9:38

that's not equal Rude

9:40

and religious discussions , although maybe they're

9:44

on the same side left of that .

9:46

Okay , gotcha , did they ever

9:48

get into the ? any of the

9:50

? I guess are you at , you

9:52

guys , lds ? Okay

9:54

, did she ever get into the kind of extraordinary

9:57

outside of ?

9:58

the LDS Okay , okay . Did you ever

10:00

hear any ?

10:06

discussion between her and Alex , or I guess

10:08

who were the other ladies .

10:09

Okay .

10:13

So no . So in that , i guess in the conversation

10:15

that got that got rude was there

10:18

okay , do

10:20

you remember any of the context or anything that that

10:22

made it weird for you ?

10:24

Well , lori felt like her husband

10:27

wasn't her husband , like he wasn't , like

10:29

he was possessed or something . Okay , did she

10:31

say something to that night ? Okay , she was going

10:34

to say

10:36

nothing

10:38

, yeah , and

10:42

so my brother was just kind of aggressive about it . Like

10:44

what I

10:46

took was like a little

10:48

stressed out was the fact that he

10:51

was casually like well , he just needs to die , kind

10:53

of thing , and I'm like totally not appropriate . So

10:56

after that happened I went back a day or two

10:58

later .

10:59

Was this at their house that she'd rented

11:01

in here , or where'd you guys meet at ? It was at her

11:03

friend's house , okay .

11:06

And so I just I was really upset

11:09

by it . so I just called , i just tested

11:11

and said Lori , i need to visit you because I think this

11:13

is really inappropriate . And

11:16

so I told her and I said you can't be casual

11:18

stuff like that you can't . Like you can't , it's

11:21

not okay to talk about that in that

11:23

context . Like I don't know your brother , she's

11:26

like , oh it's , you just know me . I'm super

11:28

dramatic and so is he , and indeed I mean anything

11:30

by it , and and so I just

11:32

said , well , like if something were to happen to her , i was

11:34

gonna , i want to go talk to the police . This is

11:36

like you can't talk about that and like that's not okay

11:38

.

11:39

Okay .

11:39

And so I was totally . she said

11:41

no , not at all , we're just , you

11:43

know , being dramatic , and that was

11:45

the end of it .

11:46

Okay , when you had that follow-up conversation

11:49

with her , was that over the phone or was ?

11:50

that in person ? No

11:52

, is it her brother's home in Queen

11:54

Creek ? Okay , so

11:57

, like I never , and before

11:59

that time , like I have never been to her house , and

12:04

that was I've been to the big , big house

12:06

off of Hickley

12:09

.

12:09

Okay .

12:10

But I happened to in between

12:12

house because she was really spragged in communication

12:18

.

12:18

Okay , how

12:21

close were you guys prior to this ?

12:26

Like I didn't know her well at all before

12:28

she moved to Hawaii . when we went to Hawaii

12:31

So I had known her . She was in the primary

12:33

at our ward and so was I , okay , the music

12:35

singer and stuff like that , and then she moved

12:37

out to Hawaii And we had a really great visit

12:39

to Hawaii . So we went to Hawaii for a vacation

12:42

just of our own families , and while she was there

12:44

we went and left a surfboard that

12:46

we had bought at Costco because it was cheaper

12:48

than that .

12:49

Okay , we gave it to them We just had

12:51

a really nice visit Had an hour and a half day visit

12:53

, whatever it was .

12:54

It was a few hours in the afternoon and then we left and that

12:56

was that .

12:57

Was Charles there then ? No , he was there

12:59

. Okay , just traveling for work . Okay

13:01

, is

13:05

there anything else that you could think of ? I guess

13:07

, now , hindsight being what it is , and

13:10

in all of these active investigations

13:13

, okay

13:16

, and then because my sister's

13:19

been the word but the child

13:21

a bow .

13:22

I've been at harvest and I

13:25

had no idea . She moved Idaho , no idea

13:27

where . She was okay and Had

13:30

heard that Chad gables wife had died , and

13:33

so I , my sister , called me . She's like

13:35

here with her , christina . My sister's name is

13:37

Ruth . I just heard that Chad's wife

13:39

died . You know , that guy introduced you to a church . I said

13:41

, oh yeah , that's my family's friend , and So

13:44

she told me about it . So I texted Lauren

13:46

, tried to call her and I didn't say I just said

13:48

I heard something . I want to visit the other chance

13:51

call me . But she never responded never responded

13:53

. So I had no idea She was even living

13:55

there .

13:56

Okay for that Did

13:58

Mary down , or did you know her and Chad

14:00

were friends prior to , or

14:02

, i guess , by the time you're introduced ? Okay

14:05

, how did you know that through ?

14:07

the yeah , just in visiting

14:09

with her She

14:11

gave me a couple of his books . Okay , and

14:14

so , and

14:16

then my sister had brought it up on time that there was this

14:18

guy about these books , they said , oh , i find , gave

14:20

me his book , and so that's how okay

14:22

, that connection . So then , when I met him in the summer

14:24

, it was just like oh

14:27

, my friend .

14:30

Gotcha , but there wasn't a lot

14:32

more conversation about Chad and Lori

14:34

and their relationship prior to this or anything

14:36

else like that . It was just a friend . Okay , just

14:38

friends . Okay , gotcha

14:42

, like I said , is there anything

14:44

else ? I guess now , looking back , that you

14:46

go Oh man , that's really strange , or ?

14:51

She's lost , gonna

14:54

come holler away . She

15:05

has reached out a couple times and wanted to visit , and

15:08

I haven't read the news articles . I could just kind

15:10

of make some sick and I haven't even really wanted to . So

15:13

when she asked if I wanted

15:15

to get to get in visit . I just really don't like

15:17

I don't want to talk about anything but you

15:19

haven't talked to the police . And she said I've told the police every

15:22

single thing I can think of

15:24

Yeah , she's , she's . I've we've talked to her on

15:26

several different occasions No

15:32

, that's yeah , there's two melodies so

15:35

Really none of

15:37

those ladies that like we were getting together and

15:39

just doing like scription , discussions and stuff , and

15:44

did you guys have any mutual

15:46

friends ?

15:46

besides ? did you know who knows

15:49

you Lima prior to this ? Okay , so

15:51

that was your first time basically going to Zulema , is

15:53

that ?

15:55

One other time to Zulema's . I met her last

15:57

March . So so it

15:59

Melanie . And then Melanie

16:01

, her niece . Okay and then

16:03

my friend Nicole , who was also

16:05

in the ward with me . So , like we knew , the

16:07

three of us knew from her , her

16:09

from here , and

16:12

The

16:15

day that I was upset

16:17

about the whole thing and just kind of was done

16:19

with it was when I met her brother , alex . There was

16:21

a neighbor or somebody that had been invited and he

16:23

was .

16:26

Okay .

16:29

So that's the only other .

16:33

Oh , and Serena sure okay , yeah , so that's

16:35

it . So you know

16:37

, serena and Nicole through

16:40

church .

16:41

Yes , okay , serena was introduced

16:44

to us by Lori , okay

16:46

and . Serena still like . I communicate

16:48

with Serena and Nicole's my best .

16:56

Okay , they

16:59

haven't okay . So

17:02

You

17:04

, nicole and Serena and

17:06

then Lori kind of world , i guess

17:09

acquaintances are your friends with them , but

17:11

you've already became friends through church and that's

17:13

kind of how . So that's

17:15

. That's part of the reason that I'm here . I'm

17:17

sure you might have . You haven't seen the news article

17:20

. I

17:22

don't need to , i'll stand this . This

17:24

is , this is a That

17:27

kind of clear lightning , dark scale

17:29

rating and everything else and Like

17:31

, yeah , they have , and

17:34

like the past life that everybody's lived and

17:36

the reason is completely Inconsistent

17:38

with any of our churches beliefs

17:40

. Yeah , absolutely . I hope

17:42

you know that . I mean you know , Yeah

17:44

, well , I'm very Yeah

17:47

very , very aware of it being

17:49

in the outside , but but your name

17:51

, serena's name and

17:53

Nicole's name , that those are the other two that are

17:55

blocked off or all there . That became

17:57

part of this , this

17:59

Thing

18:02

that they kind of have floating around , and that's

18:04

how it came to be that we wanted

18:06

to come out and talk to you . Yeah , it's just

18:08

to see .

18:09

I guess you know I want to

18:11

see what did you say about Christina . Which

18:14

one are you ?

18:15

Yeah , I do Yeah .

18:19

The little nutty , his daughter . Oh

18:23

, i

18:34

got to be nicer

18:37

to you . So the idea

18:39

is that the only thing that I

18:42

would add is that Nicole

18:44

talked to Lori

18:46

after last night , okay , and

18:52

she told Lori that the

18:55

whole thing that went down with Charles was that Charles

18:57

had killed

19:01

her And

19:04

that the day that he died he had left his phone

19:06

in their home and on the phone

19:09

was this plan to kill Lori . And

19:12

so that it was the fight broke

19:14

out because Charles wanted his phone back and she wanted

19:16

to keep the phone that

19:18

showed that he was trying to

19:20

commit murder and he needs help . And

19:23

she told Nicole that Charles

19:25

had cut her out of all the insurance

19:27

and stuff , they were getting divorced and that she

19:29

wasn't getting any money and she was left with

19:31

all the

19:35

bills from his

19:37

job , like

19:39

their home business and everything . So she doesn't really

19:41

really got shaped by Nancy . That's what she was told

19:44

.

19:44

Okay .

19:45

So what was interesting at Christmas

19:48

time is my sister

19:50

, Ruth , because Chas

19:52

and her ward , her

19:54

husband , was in the Bishopric and

19:56

he was like a clerk or something

19:58

. So in visiting

20:01

with him he had said oh , my wife

20:03

got a lot of money from

20:05

her husband's death and we have a house in

20:07

Hawaii now , which

20:09

didn't

20:12

make any sense with what I'd heard , which

20:14

is that she was stuck with all this death

20:17

and that she never

20:19

had a house in Hawaii . She was renting , so it wasn't

20:21

even like she had a house then . So it

20:23

wasn't making sense with what was said to

20:27

.

20:28

Gotcha Yeah So .

20:31

It's a lie , obviously . It's a lie , obviously

20:33

.

20:34

A lot , yeah , absolutely , a lot

20:36

, absolutely .

20:38

There has to be with all this crap .

20:39

Okay , so what you can think

20:41

of that

20:44

would be important for me in these cases

20:47

and Unfortunately

20:59

I'm out of business cards . But I'll give you my desk phone

21:01

number Because

21:04

some of them might pop into your mind . You

21:06

know , a week from now or a month from now , you go . Oh

21:08

man , i should tell Nathan this And

21:10

I'll give that to you , just so you have my contact information

21:12

.

21:14

I don't know how it could . What transfer

21:17

it Like ? none of it makes sense to me , it just

21:19

makes me sick . Yeah , it's all absolutely insane

21:21

.

21:24

That's a good way to put it . That's

21:27

a very good way to put it .

21:29

Do they know where the kids are ?

21:31

No , okay , no , i

21:34

had lost track of hearing about it on the news .

21:35

One way or the other . We

21:39

knew Tylee and JJ JJ . Yeah

21:41

, they were such sweet kids . It's wonderful people

21:43

, and I'm sure you've

21:45

heard that . I just haven't

21:47

heard anything . No , Not

21:49

yet So obviously

21:51

it doesn't go well .

21:53

No , no , all

21:57

right , you guys , i appreciate it Okay .

22:07

A lot of little tidbits in there for sure

22:09

. Now the next interview

22:11

is with the friend Nicole . They

22:14

show up here and ask her

22:16

questions too . It's

22:18

best if you listen to this with headphones

22:21

on , because the body cam

22:23

footage is picking up the audio

22:25

and they're not standing exactly

22:28

close to each other , so you hear the detective

22:30

much better than you hear the interview . But

22:34

there's some interesting tidbits here that

22:36

you'll hear . One of the things I

22:38

found really interesting is when he's

22:40

asking about Charles . Nicole

22:42

says and you'll

22:45

hear it that there was a time

22:47

when Lori put some drugs and

22:49

Charles is smoothie All

22:53

right . So here we go .

23:32

Today is Wednesday

23:34

, april 15th , at

23:36

20 , 20 , at 1507

23:39

hours , detective Moffat at f***ing the

23:42

police station And

23:47

we speak in with Nicole Earl in regards to

23:49

case number

23:51

19-83477

23:54

. Okay

24:10

, hi

24:33

, hi , it's Nicole . Hi

24:43

, Nicole , i'm Detective Mafo with Chalepedy . How are you

24:45

? I'm good . I just wanted to touch base

24:47

with you about Lori Vallow , okay . So

24:49

if I come in or you want to talk out here whatever

24:51

is more comfortable for you , alright

24:57

. So how

25:03

do

25:06

you know Lori ? Okay

25:09

, i'm

25:15

going to switch notepads

25:17

here

25:19

. How'd you meet her ?

25:21

I met her at church .

25:22

Church . How

25:25

long have you known her ?

25:41

I once say like 2008

25:43

. Okay , josh , do

25:45

you remember how long we've known

25:48

each other ? About

25:55

two thousand years ? No

25:58

, because we weren't

26:01

here then . Okay , wait

26:06

, two thousand years

26:09

. Yeah

26:12

, i'd say she's just beard

26:14

, okay . I remember the exact year

26:17

.

26:17

Yeah , that's fine , and

26:19

you met her church . Uh-huh , which

26:22

ward .

26:23

I don't know at

26:25

the time . Lindsay

26:27

, first , what do you want to say ?

26:29

Okay , and then

26:31

you guys just kept in touch . Yeah

26:33

, how often .

26:34

We moved to Hawaii . Her family moved to Hawaii

26:37

Like

26:39

, oh , maybe a year or two

26:41

after , okay , i don't remember

26:45

.

26:45

I should know they were gone for about three years .

26:50

And then Josh ran into her at

26:52

another church and

26:55

said oh , they moved back . Gotcha

26:57

And because

27:01

we were friends with that and with our children .

27:09

How often , i guess , prior

27:12

to all the stuff that's happened . How , when

27:14

, was what ? was

27:16

that text Just

27:18

?

27:18

said I'm free for your family

27:21

.

27:21

You said that to her . Yeah , okay , did

27:23

she respond ?

27:23

at all . I had her sisters and her mom

27:26

.

27:26

Okay , so you knew her pretty well over the course of the

27:28

10 or 11 years . Did

27:32

she respond to you at all ? When's

27:38

the last time you saw her in person ?

27:40

It was , I believe , very

27:42

in July or April .

27:44

So after Charles had died , Yeah

27:46

. Okay .

27:47

I saw her a couple of times

27:49

after Charles died .

27:54

What did she have to say about that And

27:58

about Charles passing ?

27:59

She told me everything She

28:02

believes it happened .

28:05

What did she tell you happened ?

28:08

She said

28:10

that Charles came

28:12

in from out of town . I believe she

28:15

said he was staying maybe at a hotel or

28:17

something .

28:17

Okay .

28:18

I was coming to pick up .

28:19

JJ Okay To go to school

28:21

.

28:23

And I'm

28:25

not going to go all the details , but

28:27

she

28:30

said that he came in , there

28:33

was confrontation and a tidy

28:35

came in with

28:37

a softball bat or a baseball bat

28:39

, but some sort of bat , and

28:42

then she said

28:44

that she had tidy

28:46

, take JJ out to the car .

28:49

Okay .

28:49

And buckle him in to the seat . And

28:52

then that's when Charles

28:57

took the bat and took the

28:59

Alex Okay , and Alex fired himself

29:02

defense

29:04

.

29:06

Did you know Alex ? Okay

29:08

, what was your Not well

29:10

? How many times did you met him ?

29:12

I met him at a birthday party . That was the

29:14

first time And that would have been

29:19

last summer . No , not last summer , summer

29:21

before .

29:24

So summer of 18 ?

29:25

Yeah , okay , Whenever

29:27

his birthday was , it was a pool party

29:30

, so that's why I'm thinking it was summer , okay

29:32

.

29:32

But , I don't remember exactly when it

29:35

was Besides that birthday

29:37

party , like you said , you knew her sisters and her parents

29:40

and stuff . Did you had ? had you

29:42

had many interactions with Alex ? Okay

29:44

, when

29:48

was the last time you saw Lori in person

29:51

? I guess prior to

29:53

Charles's

29:55

death .

29:58

I believe it was possibly

30:04

June Okay . I

30:08

know that she moved

30:11

to Texas at

30:14

some point in the springtime

30:16

. Okay , Because

30:21

it's so pretty in January

30:24

which he

30:27

left in Texas I believe it was Houston

30:29

And

30:32

then she

30:37

went there , maybe

30:40

.

30:46

Okay , and

30:48

then she went there for a little while

30:50

and then

30:55

came back When

30:58

she came back from Houston , i believe

31:00

. So Okay .

31:01

I think I remember seeing , because he went

31:03

to the special

31:05

school of .

31:05

Lauren , lauren Institute .

31:07

Yeah , And she was

31:09

having him in the summer program there

31:11

, okay , and I remember

31:13

. That was what I remember , because , whatever , the school

31:16

was in Houston , it wasn't really the best

31:18

fit . I remember her seeing Gotcha

31:20

And he really seemed to do well

31:22

at the Lauren Institute and like the staff

31:24

and the teachers , and

31:27

I remember there was some sort

31:29

of purse

31:31

altercation And

31:35

I think it might have been during that time . Okay , so

31:41

I don't remember what the details were

31:44

.

31:44

What the details were . Okay , so

31:49

are you LDS ? Obviously , you guys met

31:51

through the church . Did you ever

31:53

hear Lori , i guess , discuss things

31:56

that were kind of outside of the LDS

31:58

faith and have conversations

32:00

with her about that stuff ? Yeah

32:02

, she did talk a little bit about these things

32:04

. What do you know , i guess , what were

32:07

the things that you heard ? I guess

32:09

, knowing now kind of

32:11

where all of these

32:13

criminal cases have gone ? is there anything

32:15

that stands out to you now as something like oh

32:18

, that's strange , or that conversation

32:20

was weird , or anything else like that ?

32:23

Well , folks , I think not anything .

32:29

I guess , like I just left Christina's

32:32

house and Christina had her over her

32:34

conversations , that she's like there was just

32:36

a really bizarre conversation that we had and it

32:38

made me feel uncomfortable and it was kind

32:41

of outside of really outside the normal of

32:43

any normal conversation . you kind of over here

32:45

, did you ever have those conversations

32:47

with Lori and Yeah

32:50

, she talked about her

32:52

husband being possessed . Okay .

32:58

And対 me as well , and

33:02

one

33:05

of the things it's gonna really make true

33:07

to me was that

33:10

you

33:20

can easily get on people , people

33:23

Whether they're doing the right thing

33:25

or not in their life . You

33:28

can just pick

33:30

and choose Rob's

33:32

kind of in this life together . It's my

33:34

thoughts . The point is we need

33:36

to keep on doing the

33:39

right thing . So

33:41

I didn't really like that And

33:43

as she started talking about those things , I

33:45

just tried to distance myself

33:47

more in these conversations

33:50

.

34:02

Oh , i guess one of the reasons that you

34:05

came to be here , i guess that we

34:08

wanted to follow up and talk to you . I don't know if you've seen

34:10

any of these emails and stuff , but

34:12

this was kind of something that was

34:14

found in an email between

34:16

Chad and

34:19

Laurie And it kind of

34:21

goes through their previous lives and who

34:23

everybody is , and obviously you were included

34:25

on that . So it was just kind of you

34:28

, christina and

34:31

Serena were all included on that . So we're

34:33

kind of following up with all of you guys just to see where

34:35

everybody fits into the puzzle

34:37

.

34:42

And I think my name is Moon

34:45

. I'm not ever seeing this document

34:47

, So

35:02

I do know a lot of these people . I

35:05

know Jason now . He was in

35:08

that same ward , but I don't

35:10

know if he was actually there when Laurie I

35:13

don't like he looked there when she was in

35:16

the ward actually .

35:21

Had you ever met Chad Debell

35:24

? No , never met him . Had

35:26

you ever heard or had any conversations with

35:28

Laurie about Chad ?

35:30

She gave me his

35:32

book series .

35:33

Okay .

35:35

I guess there was a preparing

35:38

a people conference here .

35:40

Okay .

35:40

And Mesa maybe , or Gilbert

35:43

, i'm not quite sure .

35:44

Did you ever go to any of those ? Go to any of them

35:46

. So I don't know exactly what they're about . But when

35:48

she came back from that conference then

35:51

she gave me a set of the books

35:53

. Gotcha , I'm not a

35:55

fiction reader . I actually despise

35:57

it . Okay .

35:58

So I read a little bit

36:00

of the first one and I was like , yeah , that's

36:03

not for me Gotcha .

36:05

Anyway , i haven't read any of them .

36:08

Okay , i don't really know what they talk

36:11

about other than that , very first book

36:13

.

36:13

Besides her basically giving the book and stuff

36:16

, did you ever have any ? did she ever talk to you about

36:18

how , when she , they became friends

36:21

or the relationship that

36:23

they ?

36:24

She talked about . Well , she met

36:26

him at that , preparing people from what I understand

36:28

.

36:29

Okay .

36:30

And I don't know if she was presenting

36:32

that or if she just

36:34

went to it . I have no idea .

36:36

Okay .

36:37

Because I do know she went to another

36:39

one and I

36:41

already Okay , she did present

36:43

there , but I don't know for sure

36:45

.

36:45

Okay . And

36:48

, like I know , melanie Gibb does

36:52

present those because she wrote some

36:54

sort of book or something which I haven't

36:57

read either , gotcha , because

36:59

you don't like the fiction stuff .

37:01

Not my kind of thing . So

37:03

she met

37:06

him and then I didn't

37:08

really hear her say anything about him

37:10

until probably

37:14

March or maybe April

37:16

. And then she started to

37:18

talk about him , but she didn't necessarily

37:21

talk about him , that they were having

37:23

any sort of relationship . Okay

37:26

, i think they were in communication with

37:28

one another . He lives in

37:30

Idaho and she lived here and she was

37:32

in Texas at that time too . So

37:34

that's all I know . She didn't ever go

37:36

into any detail about I hope

37:38

it's now like obviously

37:41

there's a lot in the media , but I

37:43

was never given any information

37:45

about that . There was anything

37:48

romantic going on

37:50

or anything of that nature , so

37:52

I can't speak about that .

37:53

Gotcha , as

37:56

far as I

38:00

guess , is there anything that , with

38:02

our investigations , that you

38:04

ever heard that you think I should know , or

38:07

like that we should discuss , type thing . You

38:09

know what I'm saying ? I

38:12

know . Well , let me ask you this

38:14

You are LDS . How

38:17

often did you guys have conversations of

38:19

the ? I guess her beliefs

38:21

, or the beliefs that she was calling kind of falling into

38:23

that , were far up , over

38:25

and above the LDS faith and the

38:28

teachings in the LDS church , that's

38:30

a good

38:32

question .

38:34

So are you

38:36

LDS ?

38:36

No , I'm not Okay

38:38

.

38:39

Once she moved back from Hawaii , i

38:42

met her . I ran into her . Josh

38:44

said she was here , but she wasn't living nearby

38:46

.

38:47

Gotcha .

38:47

And then I ran into her at the temple

38:50

, which is over on On Higley

38:52

Or Greenfield Yeah . Yeah

38:55

, and so we

38:58

visited and then , periodically , would

39:00

go and go and

39:02

do work at the temple . Okay

39:04

, that's what we were doing , so we were discussing

39:07

religious things , but it wasn't necessarily

39:09

our left things

39:11

that we're hearing about

39:14

. She did , however , ask

39:18

me to come , and she visited

39:20

in March , i want to say

39:22

, and she did visit about

39:24

some of those things , and it

39:26

just was not something that was pretty

39:29

true to me , okay . And at that

39:31

point that's when I Since

39:33

myself , and it was easier because

39:35

she was in Texas after that .

39:37

Gotcha .

39:38

So you know , there'd

39:40

be some texting back and forth . but

39:42

and then she moved back in

39:44

June with

39:48

JJ to go to school and

39:51

she

39:53

wanted to get together . We got together

39:55

and once again she discussed some of those

39:57

things and they just weren't really true to

39:59

me . So at that point

40:01

I really just thought I'm not

40:04

interested in Like , i

40:06

still like her as a person , but I'm not interested

40:08

in getting involved in those kinds of

40:10

things . and then in July

40:13

I was out of town

40:15

and Josh called me as

40:17

I was driving home and said I

40:19

just heard through the grapevine that Charles

40:21

died . He didn't have any

40:23

information so I didn't know what had happened

40:26

. so I did reach out to her at that point and just

40:28

sent her a message and said

40:30

I am thinking about you , i hope

40:32

everything is well , hopefully either the kids

40:34

are okay , okay . And

40:37

then a couple of these later

40:39

she contacted me and

40:41

I could look back and tell you the exact dates on

40:43

the

40:46

text . If you think there's anything

40:48

in the context that I need to

40:51

know where I should know as far as these investigations

40:53

go , okay

40:55

, And then she

40:58

said that she wanted to get together and

41:01

visit , and

41:03

I was a little bit concerned about

41:05

it because I wanted to make sure that I

41:08

wasn't impeding any sort of police

41:11

investigation or getting

41:14

information that I shouldn't be

41:16

privileged to hear

41:18

or have , and so

41:23

that was a

41:26

couple of days after , and

41:28

so we met and I just let her talk

41:30

a couple of times and

41:33

I really asked a lot of questions

41:35

because I was just in shock

41:37

. Really , i just was so surprising

41:40

that things could escalate

41:42

to that degree , and

41:45

so that made me sad

41:48

, because we've known Charles

41:50

for 10 years . I know his sons

41:52

, i know Tylee and JJ and

41:54

No

41:56

one tells as well as you did it .

41:59

Did you ever see any side of Charles that

42:01

would have been yelling

42:04

and screaming , and the

42:07

allegations that she basically , or the behaviors

42:09

that she says Charles or

42:11

how he acted at the time ?

42:13

I didn't ever see any of that , because

42:15

most of the times I was seeing him we

42:17

were in social settings . We

42:19

would get together at their house

42:21

or at church , and

42:24

so I didn't ever see anything

42:27

of that . She shared things

42:29

with me , but obviously those

42:31

are her words .

42:34

So , previous to this , that she confided

42:36

in you that Charles was verbally

42:38

abusive or physically abusive or anything

42:40

like that in the past ?

42:42

She didn't say anything about physically , but

42:44

she mentioned

42:46

he was a little hot tempered at times

42:48

.

42:49

Okay .

42:50

And he was an intense

42:52

person . I think that's why he was such a good businessman

42:54

, because he could just get in there and get things done

42:57

and all . But yeah

42:59

, i can't really speak to that because

43:01

I never saw .

43:03

Okay , Did you ever hear her

43:05

or Alex or anybody

43:07

talk about like what they If

43:10

somebody were possessed , how they deal with

43:12

the possession or anything

43:14

like that back when this was going on ? I

43:16

know you might have seen a lot of media stuff since

43:19

then , but at first hand did you ever hear

43:21

her or Alex talk about

43:23

? you know what to do when somebody is

43:25

possessed .

43:28

I can never hear Alex talk about anything

43:30

like that , like I saw him . Social

43:32

settings once again like little family gets

43:34

together and then one

43:39

, two other times . One

43:41

time was the Serena

43:44

. she had moved here from Connecticut in

43:46

August . Okay

43:48

, end of July , first of August .

43:50

This past year , shortly after Charles died

43:52

. Yeah , okay .

43:55

She's moving to Queen Creek and so

43:58

Lori said to have a text and said

44:01

let's all get together at Costa Vita and

44:03

have lunch . And when

44:05

I write , alex was there

44:08

. But

44:10

I thought was rather strange because

44:12

it was just eventually

44:14

. These were together for lunch . So

44:17

he was there but

44:20

he didn't like really converge

44:22

or talk much during the course of the

44:24

lunch .

44:25

Okay .

44:26

And if he was talking he was like

44:28

you know , kind of groups of people chatting

44:30

at the table , so I

44:32

didn't really hear anything he was saying

44:34

necessarily Okay

44:38

.

44:39

I'm trying

44:43

to think if there's anything else that I need to ask

44:45

you . Yeah , what's the good fun of Rickie

44:47

to hold of you ?

44:55

Not really , that's a number .

44:58

That's an easy number to remember .

44:59

That's the best number for like no kindergarten

45:01

or anything .

45:03

Absolutely Anything

45:07

else that you could think of . That's important . I guess now

45:09

, knowing that we have all these criminal investigations

45:12

going , that you overheard then that , like

45:14

I said , you might have written it off , but you go , oh

45:16

man , now that all

45:19

this is happening , that's weird or bizarre

45:21

.

45:21

In June when we

45:23

saw her after she went gone a couple

45:25

of months . When I see me

45:28

, christine and I , we got together with her

45:30

. she

45:32

had said that and

45:34

, christine would be able to recall , i don't even take

45:37

ibuprofen , so I have no understanding

45:39

of medicine or anything about me , but

45:42

there was some sort of . I

45:45

think it was a medicine of some sort and

45:47

I don't know if it was something Charles took

45:49

or if it was something that

45:52

maybe was another

45:54

medication that JJ took . I

45:56

know JJ took quite a bit of medicine for

45:58

his different issues , but

46:01

she had said that she had been putting

46:03

whatever

46:06

this was into

46:08

, i think , a smoothie or some sort of drink

46:11

for Charles when she was

46:13

in Texas . Okay

46:16

, i

46:20

don't recall anything

46:22

, maybe because , i just

46:24

said , my brain doesn't really know

46:27

any path of perichate

46:30

, so I'm just not a medicine

46:32

person , okay .

46:45

Anything else you could think of ?

46:54

I've read stuff and it's just like all

46:57

this is very , very surreal . I

47:00

like to know somebody for a long time and then just

47:02

to have everything , in a

47:04

matter of a few months , turn upside

47:06

down and like

47:10

to know the kids .

47:15

Had she ever ? I guess , in

47:17

the text messages that you guys had like

47:20

after she moved , did you know she was moving

47:22

to Idaho ? Did she tell you that ? I didn't know that

47:25

, Okay .

47:29

So I think that

47:32

was in July or the first part

47:34

of August , i think

47:36

we were texting and the

47:39

people that they'd run to the house from

47:41

where the incident had happened

47:43

I believe they were friends of

47:45

Lauren and Charles and they were

47:47

really unhappy with it obviously , and

47:50

I don't know if it leaves some sort of record on

47:52

the house for like cells later on

47:54

. But she said

47:56

that they were wanting her to leave and

47:59

I said , well , just let us

48:01

know . Like I have teenage boys , i said we can

48:03

come and we can help you pack up your things

48:05

and I get you settled

48:07

someplace else if you need that kind of help

48:09

. And she's like okay , i'll put you

48:11

know . And she didn't ever say anything

48:14

. So I was really surprised

48:16

when all of a sudden , i saw a comedian in

48:18

December and realized not

48:21

long after all that she had left and

48:23

had moved to Idaho and

48:26

I wasn't aware that she was in Idaho

48:28

.

48:29

Gotcha . So any text conversations you had

48:31

with her if there were

48:33

any around that time she never said she was moving

48:35

to Idaho or what she was

48:37

doing . No , okay .

48:40

No , the last I'd heard is she just said that people

48:42

on the home told her she would need to move out

48:44

and her niece , melanie

48:46

, you know

48:49

, had possibly said she could live there

48:51

for the time . Like trying to figure out

48:53

.

48:53

Gotcha .

48:54

Because I think , from what she had said in

48:56

July , she

48:59

was concerned about the money and like

49:01

all the business debt and everything

49:04

that talked about all the car

49:06

loans and just not knowing

49:08

how all this was going to work out . Okay

49:11

, because

49:13

she had said that Charles had changed

49:15

all the and

49:17

his sister I

49:20

believe it would have been in March changed

49:22

all the life insurance policies

49:24

and all those things over to his sister at

49:28

that point in time , which was understandable

49:30

in my mind because he was pretty

49:32

very much Lori and

49:35

her and whatever else .

49:37

Yeah .

49:39

And his sister had come and helped to move

49:41

to Texas So I knew that she was involved

49:44

in trying to help Charles with

49:46

JJ and getting settled

49:49

.

49:49

Gotcha .

49:50

So that was something that she was

49:52

saying , so I didn't know where

49:54

she would end up .

49:56

Okay .

49:57

We were willing to go

49:59

and like her moving truck or get into an apartment

50:02

wherever she needed to land , knowing

50:04

that I'm sure that that house was not an

50:06

expensive to rent .

50:08

Yeah , So obviously Because they know

50:10

it's worth the treatment . That's

50:13

the next

50:15

clue in the past . You don't have any idea where

50:17

the kids are , they aren't with you or

50:19

anyone of their friends or mutual

50:21

friends , or okay , yeah

50:25

, and

50:30

she hasn't . There hasn't been any

50:32

responses , i guess , since the media has gotten

50:34

a hold to this , that would

50:37

shed any light on this case

50:39

or these cases one way or another . Like a

50:41

text message Yeah , i like text messages , or anything

50:43

.

50:44

I don't think I've received anything from

50:46

her . I could go get

50:48

my phone and look , but I

50:52

don't believe . when I texted her in

50:54

December , when I saw

50:56

everything going on , i

50:58

don't think she responded at that point . Okay

51:00

.

51:07

I'm going to run out of business cards , but

51:09

I'm going to write my email address

51:11

and my desk phone number down for you If

51:14

something comes up , if you happen

51:16

to something

51:19

comes to mind of oh you know , i really should tell

51:22

Nathan or to take them off of that . Just

51:24

give me a call or shoot me an email . They

51:29

have us working from home three days a week , so

51:32

this is my one day off office work until

51:34

this quarantine is done . I'm

51:39

guessing that will be done

51:42

by yeah , it

51:45

might go into mid-May . My

51:47

wife's an ER trauma nurse , a

51:49

charge nurse , and they're seeing a

51:51

decline but they're still seeing steady cases

51:53

. So I think it all depends on what the governor

51:55

wants to do or decides to do So

51:58

in the case .

51:59

are they really high risk pieces

52:01

or is it just people having symptoms ?

52:03

that are mild flu . My

52:05

personal opinion in talking to her and

52:08

the way it's working . The scary

52:10

part is

52:12

there are people mid-30s

52:15

that have no medical condition non-smokers

52:17

, non , you know that are

52:19

reacting bad to this and crashing . It's

52:22

not many , but it's those rare cases

52:25

that you go really as anybody safe , depending

52:27

on how personally your body's going to

52:29

react to it . A lot of people are coming

52:32

in and go on . You know they have bronchitis

52:35

symptoms and that kind of stuff and they're COVID

52:37

positive and they're like well , i just don't feel good , i'm

52:39

not getting better . Well , go home and you're

52:41

quite affecting people and just stay home for

52:44

until you're a better type thing . So

52:46

it's really just kind of a bizarre

52:48

mix of it's

52:51

those one-offs and you never

52:53

know if there is something underlying they could have

52:55

had . I mean , i work homicide . I've

52:58

done death investigations . We're 22-year-old

53:00

kids fund at

53:02

the park and just had

53:04

an inaiortic dissection or something that

53:07

was underlying medical conditions . So

53:09

you don't know whether or not those

53:11

people might have had an undiagnosed

53:13

or untreated because they didn't see a

53:15

physician . But it's

53:18

those one-off cases that are kind

53:20

of scary . You know , obviously , at the at-risk

53:22

groups and stuff like that , or they're at-risk

53:24

, you're more

53:27

susceptible to get something

53:29

like that . So I get that . But

53:32

they are going down . I mean

53:34

they have a tent set outside the CRH because that's

53:36

where she works at for

53:39

any type of complaints . If

53:41

it's not emergent and

53:44

doesn't need to happen right away , then they're being

53:46

treated out there and if they don't need to be admitted , they

53:48

just go home from there and quarantine . So

53:52

I'm guessing I

53:54

think because of the bad economy

53:57

and stuff like that , they might rush to open

53:59

it back on May 1

54:01

, as we were set to do . But hopefully

54:04

the governor's paying attention and

54:06

if we need to stay closed , to stay down for two more

54:08

weeks , we do , just because

54:11

I think it really is . You

54:13

know , if you're sitting here or going to the grocery store and

54:15

you wash your hands and you know don't touch

54:17

your face while you're in there and use hand sanitizer

54:20

, you're not likely to get it . So if

54:22

we get on the downhill curve of this , hopefully

54:25

it slows it and we get all

54:27

done with this .

54:29

I think

54:32

you're trying to wait through what the media is saying

54:34

, like

54:37

I was just at Michigan and it's a mess

54:39

.

54:39

Yeah , Michigan's really bad .

54:41

And it's just like both of those are terrible

54:43

states to be in , right now , Yeah , and New

54:45

York obviously is really really bad .

54:48

I'm not sure that it's in Louisiana .

54:50

Just wait for me . I'm like here's going

54:52

to like put a bit of that off the mountain where you're going

54:54

to Right . So I'm going

54:56

to say well , thanks to your wife and you for being on

54:58

the front line .

54:59

Thank you , our stuff . I can't even

55:01

imagine homicide That

55:03

would be great

55:06

for poor people that are willing to do that . There's

55:09

my email address . I need to take

55:11

that back only because stuff's

55:13

been getting to the media and it's just making matters

55:15

worse for all of us . So not

55:18

that you would , but I just No . I

55:21

can't . Any questions for me .

55:22

Very careful People

55:26

knew that I was comfortable and they just come

55:28

to ask me and I just try not

55:30

to share details because I don't

55:33

want to create any extra

55:35

sensationalism or anything , and

55:41

so Any questions I can answer for you . Probably

55:48

most of them you can't talk about . So Okay

55:51

. I

55:58

think the most like it was shocking in July

56:00

, but what transpired

56:03

by Christmas time ? I

56:06

didn't see it until Christmas Eve , yeah Yeah

56:08

.

56:16

Yeah .

56:22

Yeah , yeah

56:27

, yeah

56:34

.

56:45

Absolutely . Yeah , yeah , yeah

56:47

, yeah . I think they're kind of the quiet

56:49

victims all of this

56:51

. Yeah , absolutely , yeah

56:54

, absolutely

57:08

.

57:15

Yeah .

57:26

Yeah , yeah

57:30

, yeah

57:37

, yeah

57:42

, yeah

57:50

, yeah

57:56

Yeah

58:04

.

58:08

Yeah , yeah

58:14

, yeah

58:18

, yeah

58:23

Yeah

58:27

.

58:34

Yeah .

58:39

Yeah , yeah

58:43

, yeah

58:45

, yeah

58:53

Yeah

58:55

.

59:03

To intervene . I don't know exact . I know

59:05

that she was . She did do that back in whenever it was

59:07

. I don't remember I

59:09

think it was . I think

59:12

it was , yeah , february or so . Yeah

59:24

, yeah

59:27

, yeah

59:30

, yeah

59:37

, yeah

59:45

, yeah

59:48

, yeah

59:53

, yeah

59:58

, yeah , yeah

1:00:02

. Mm , yeah

1:00:10

, yeah

1:00:13

, yeah

1:00:16

, yeah

1:00:23

. Difference

1:00:28

of the two . There's two very

1:00:30

separate roads that they go down

1:00:32

for those type of things .

1:00:33

I was very hopeful that I just got to be free . That

1:00:36

was all within the same year . I just can't believe

1:00:38

that the shift can change

1:00:40

or that I just kept thinking there has

1:00:42

to be something in the possibility to happen , But

1:00:44

shifts in some

1:00:46

of my shoes be able

1:00:49

to orchestrate all sorts of things

1:00:51

.

1:00:53

Well , if you have any other questions , feel free

1:00:55

to reach out to me okay .

1:01:00

Okay , everyone , thank you so

1:01:02

much for being here . There

1:01:04

is also an opportunity

1:01:06

now to join and

1:01:09

just subscribe to the show . You

1:01:11

can pay a monthly fee The link

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you can help support my show . I really

1:01:18

appreciate it . Again , one

1:01:20

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1:01:22

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. Another way , if you cannot

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1:01:41

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1:01:43

appreciate you all . Stay

1:01:45

safe , stay well and

1:01:47

I'll be back soon . Bye-bye

1:01:49

.